{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":4.2,"endTime":6.21,"body":"Hi there,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":4.2,"endTime":6.21,"body":"and welcome to your monthly dose"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":6.21,"endTime":9.63,"body":"of Uncommon Sense. I'm Alexis"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":6.21,"endTime":9.63,"body":"Hieu Truong in Ottawa, Canada."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":10.29,"endTime":12.75,"body":"And I'm Rosie"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":10.29,"endTime":12.75,"body":"Hancock in Sydney, Australia."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":13.35,"endTime":16.74,"body":"And along with everyone making"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":13.35,"endTime":16.74,"body":"this podcast at The Sociological"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":16.74,"endTime":21.03,"body":"Review, we want to spread the"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":16.74,"endTime":21.03,"body":"sociological word."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":21.6,"endTime":23.64,"body":"And that's"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":21.6,"endTime":23.64,"body":"not because we're on some kind"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":23.64,"endTime":26.67,"body":"of ego trip, but because it"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":23.64,"endTime":26.67,"body":"matters. It's about questioning"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":26.67,"endTime":30.24,"body":"the assumptions about the world"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":26.67,"endTime":30.24,"body":"we share, and making space to"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":30.24,"endTime":32.91,"body":"think about what better futures"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":30.24,"endTime":32.91,"body":"might look like."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":33.05,"endTime":36.29,"body":"So far in the"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":33.05,"endTime":36.29,"body":"series, we've taken a really"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":36.32,"endTime":40.7,"body":"close, kind of sideways, look at"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":36.32,"endTime":40.7,"body":"things like home, care, the"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":40.7,"endTime":44.93,"body":"concept of education. Today,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":40.7,"endTime":44.93,"body":"we're going to talk about love"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":44.96,"endTime":45.77,"body":"and intimacy."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":45.0,"endTime":51.99,"body":"Now, unlike"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":45.0,"endTime":51.99,"body":"say, education, love and"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":51.99,"endTime":55.62,"body":"intimacy can seem like things"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":51.99,"endTime":55.62,"body":"that belong to the private realm"},{"speaker":"or to pop culture","startTime":55.62,"endTime":60.21,"body":"Taylor Swift"},{"speaker":"or to pop culture","startTime":55.62,"endTime":60.21,"body":"or Frank Ocean, or novelists"},{"speaker":"or to pop culture","startTime":60.21,"endTime":65.34,"body":"like James Baldwin and Sally"},{"speaker":"or to pop culture","startTime":60.21,"endTime":65.34,"body":"Rooney. But a sociologist!? I"},{"speaker":"or to pop culture","startTime":65.34,"endTime":68.7,"body":"mean, who wants a sociology book"},{"speaker":"or to pop culture","startTime":65.34,"endTime":68.7,"body":"as a Valentine's gift, right?"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":69.57,"endTime":73.44,"body":"Yeah, no, thanks."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":69.57,"endTime":73.44,"body":"I mean, I love sociology, but"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":73.5,"endTime":74.34,"body":"not that much."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":75.35,"endTime":78.2,"body":"So, to"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":75.35,"endTime":78.2,"body":"reject love and intimacy means"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":78.23,"endTime":81.77,"body":"missing out on some critical"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":78.23,"endTime":81.77,"body":"conversations, because our ideas"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":81.77,"endTime":85.4,"body":"around love and intimacy are"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":81.77,"endTime":85.4,"body":"both shaped by and shape our"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":85.4,"endTime":88.76,"body":"wider world. And as"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":85.4,"endTime":88.76,"body":"sociologists, we're interested"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":88.76,"endTime":92.99,"body":"in how all of that works, how"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":88.76,"endTime":92.99,"body":"our values or norms, how say,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":92.99,"endTime":97.22,"body":"like, colonialism or capitalism"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":92.99,"endTime":97.22,"body":"play out in what seems like our"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":97.22,"endTime":99.32,"body":"most private relationships."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":99.66,"endTime":102.0,"body":"Yeah. How, for"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":99.66,"endTime":102.0,"body":"example, has a lyric like"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":102.03,"endTime":105.63,"body":"Whitney Houston's \"I Will Always"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":102.03,"endTime":105.63,"body":"Love You\" come to sound as much"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":105.63,"endTime":109.71,"body":"like a threat as a romantic"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":105.63,"endTime":109.71,"body":"promise, and this time of short"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":109.71,"endTime":114.45,"body":"term dating, of shopping around"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":109.71,"endTime":114.45,"body":"for love. And shouldn't Stevie"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":114.45,"endTime":117.93,"body":"Wonder change that famous song"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":114.45,"endTime":117.93,"body":"title to \"I Just WhatsApped To"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":117.93,"endTime":118.83,"body":"Say I Love You\"?"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":118.0,"endTime":118.81,"body":"Yeah. In"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":118.0,"endTime":118.81,"body":"fact, it's not just that our"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":118.99,"endTime":121.66,"body":"ideas of love and intimacy have"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":118.99,"endTime":121.66,"body":"evolved over time. It's also"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":121.69,"endTime":130.42,"body":"true that love, for example,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":121.69,"endTime":130.42,"body":"isn't always actually that"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":130.42,"endTime":134.35,"body":"positive. It gets invoked to"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":130.42,"endTime":134.35,"body":"justify and frame all sorts of"},{"speaker":"things","startTime":134.35,"endTime":139.3,"body":"inequality, hypocrisy,"},{"speaker":"things","startTime":134.35,"endTime":139.3,"body":"consumerism, nationalism too."},{"speaker":"things","startTime":139.72,"endTime":143.35,"body":"And slapping Chris Rock at the"},{"speaker":"things","startTime":139.72,"endTime":143.35,"body":"Oscars, if you're the \"aspiring"},{"speaker":"things","startTime":143.35,"endTime":146.92,"body":"vessel of love\", Will Smith."},{"speaker":"things","startTime":143.35,"endTime":146.92,"body":"Think about it like that. And"},{"speaker":"things","startTime":146.92,"endTime":150.46,"body":"it's clear that so called"},{"speaker":"things","startTime":146.92,"endTime":150.46,"body":"\"matters of the heart\" are"},{"speaker":"things","startTime":150.46,"endTime":152.02,"body":"actually deeply sociological."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":152.0,"endTime":154.61,"body":"Yep, they're all"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":152.0,"endTime":154.61,"body":"things that we'll dig into with"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":154.61,"endTime":158.51,"body":"our guests today. Joining us to"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":154.61,"endTime":158.51,"body":"talk about love and intimacy,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":158.51,"endTime":161.06,"body":"which is just one of her"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":158.51,"endTime":161.06,"body":"interests – alongside things"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":161.06,"endTime":165.29,"body":"like feminism and family, gender"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":161.06,"endTime":165.29,"body":"and parenthood – is Katherine"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":165.29,"endTime":169.13,"body":"Twamley, based at University"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":165.29,"endTime":169.13,"body":"College in London. Hi, there,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":169.13,"endTime":169.52,"body":"Katherine."},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":169.52,"endTime":170.9,"body":"Hi, great to"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":169.52,"endTime":170.9,"body":"be here."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":170.0,"endTime":173.36,"body":"I have to say"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":170.0,"endTime":173.36,"body":"that when I heard we were"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":173.36,"endTime":177.26,"body":"talking about intimacy, my mind"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":173.36,"endTime":177.26,"body":"immediately went to the sealed"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":177.26,"endTime":181.4,"body":"section of the Dolly magazine,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":177.26,"endTime":181.4,"body":"which is this popular teen"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":181.4,"endTime":185.12,"body":"magazine that you could get when"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":181.4,"endTime":185.12,"body":"I was growing up in New Zealand"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":185.42,"endTime":189.23,"body":"and it was very exciting. And I"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":185.42,"endTime":189.23,"body":"hate to disappoint the listeners"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":189.23,"endTime":191.51,"body":"out there, but I don't think"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":189.23,"endTime":191.51,"body":"that's where we're heading"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":191.51,"endTime":192.23,"body":"today. Right?"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":192.6,"endTime":194.52,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":192.6,"endTime":194.52,"body":"absolutely. I think often when"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":194.52,"endTime":196.92,"body":"we think about intimacy, we"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":194.52,"endTime":196.92,"body":"think oh, we mean, you know,"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":196.92,"endTime":200.07,"body":"physical intimacy, sexuality."},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":196.92,"endTime":200.07,"body":"But actually, a sociology of"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":200.07,"endTime":202.02,"body":"intimacy is much wider than"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":200.07,"endTime":202.02,"body":"that."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":202.47,"endTime":204.09,"body":"As we"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":202.47,"endTime":204.09,"body":"mentioned there, love seems like"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":204.09,"endTime":206.85,"body":"something that's almost too"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":204.09,"endTime":206.85,"body":"sacred to talk about, even in a"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":206.85,"endTime":210.78,"body":"remotely academic way. Something"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":206.85,"endTime":210.78,"body":"that's timeless, private,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":210.78,"endTime":213.72,"body":"precious; something you"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":210.78,"endTime":213.72,"body":"shouldn't theorise or get high"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":213.72,"endTime":217.23,"body":"minded about. We offered a bit"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":213.72,"endTime":217.23,"body":"of a defence already, but what"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":217.23,"endTime":218.25,"body":"would you add to it?"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":218.48,"endTime":221.48,"body":"I think, for"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":218.48,"endTime":221.48,"body":"me, the beauty of sociology is"},{"speaker":"exactly that","startTime":221.48,"endTime":225.62,"body":"to be able to"},{"speaker":"exactly that","startTime":221.48,"endTime":225.62,"body":"unpack the most personal of"},{"speaker":"exactly that","startTime":225.62,"endTime":230.81,"body":"experiences that we have and to"},{"speaker":"exactly that","startTime":225.62,"endTime":230.81,"body":"situate them into wider"},{"speaker":"exactly that","startTime":230.84,"endTime":235.7,"body":"processes in society. When I"},{"speaker":"exactly that","startTime":230.84,"endTime":235.7,"body":"think back on my undergraduate"},{"speaker":"exactly that","startTime":235.7,"endTime":240.17,"body":"in sociology, something that"},{"speaker":"exactly that","startTime":235.7,"endTime":240.17,"body":"really struck me and has, I"},{"speaker":"exactly that","startTime":240.17,"endTime":243.77,"body":"guess, influenced, in a way, my"},{"speaker":"exactly that","startTime":240.17,"endTime":243.77,"body":"focus on the sociology of love,"},{"speaker":"exactly that","startTime":244.04,"endTime":247.52,"body":"was learning about Durkheim's"},{"speaker":"exactly that","startTime":244.04,"endTime":247.52,"body":"work around suicide. So,"},{"speaker":"exactly that","startTime":247.52,"endTime":251.0,"body":"Durkheim showed that although we"},{"speaker":"exactly that","startTime":247.52,"endTime":251.0,"body":"would think of suicide as"},{"speaker":"exactly that","startTime":251.0,"endTime":254.69,"body":"something to do with a deeply"},{"speaker":"exactly that","startTime":251.0,"endTime":254.69,"body":"personal circumstance that"},{"speaker":"exactly that","startTime":254.69,"endTime":257.84,"body":"happens to somebody, we also see"},{"speaker":"exactly that","startTime":254.69,"endTime":257.84,"body":"– when we kind of look at a"},{"speaker":"exactly that","startTime":257.84,"endTime":261.47,"body":"wider macro lens the way"},{"speaker":"exactly that","startTime":257.84,"endTime":261.47,"body":"Durkheim did – that there are"},{"speaker":"exactly that","startTime":261.47,"endTime":265.43,"body":"peaks and troughs, and there are"},{"speaker":"exactly that","startTime":261.47,"endTime":265.43,"body":"trends. So, different kinds of"},{"speaker":"exactly that","startTime":265.43,"endTime":267.95,"body":"people at different time points"},{"speaker":"exactly that","startTime":265.43,"endTime":267.95,"body":"are more likely to commit"},{"speaker":"exactly that","startTime":267.95,"endTime":271.97,"body":"suicide. And we see in different"},{"speaker":"exactly that","startTime":267.95,"endTime":271.97,"body":"periods of history greater or"},{"speaker":"exactly that","startTime":271.97,"endTime":275.3,"body":"smaller trends, amounts of"},{"speaker":"exactly that","startTime":271.97,"endTime":275.3,"body":"people who take their own life."},{"speaker":"exactly that","startTime":275.66,"endTime":279.11,"body":"And that really struck me that"},{"speaker":"exactly that","startTime":275.66,"endTime":279.11,"body":"wow. So, something so personal,"},{"speaker":"exactly that","startTime":279.11,"endTime":283.25,"body":"like suicide can be influenced"},{"speaker":"exactly that","startTime":279.11,"endTime":283.25,"body":"by wider structures. And it's"},{"speaker":"exactly that","startTime":283.25,"endTime":287.09,"body":"the same, for me, with love. So,"},{"speaker":"exactly that","startTime":283.25,"endTime":287.09,"body":"love is maybe more positively"},{"speaker":"exactly that","startTime":287.09,"endTime":291.35,"body":"associated, but that is also"},{"speaker":"exactly that","startTime":287.09,"endTime":291.35,"body":"influenced by greater processes"},{"speaker":"exactly that","startTime":291.35,"endTime":293.12,"body":"and what's happening in the"},{"speaker":"exactly that","startTime":291.35,"endTime":293.12,"body":"world."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":293.6,"endTime":296.9,"body":"Yeah, and so, I"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":293.6,"endTime":296.9,"body":"guess not only is love socially"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":296.9,"endTime":300.35,"body":"constructed, its significance"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":296.9,"endTime":300.35,"body":"for making relations and ships"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":300.35,"endTime":303.77,"body":"is also what I would call"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":300.35,"endTime":303.77,"body":"culturally constructed, right?"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":304.1,"endTime":307.43,"body":"So we've come to think, at least"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":304.1,"endTime":307.43,"body":"in the culture I was raised in,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":307.46,"endTime":311.33,"body":"that, to quote another song,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":307.46,"endTime":311.33,"body":"\"love and marriage go together"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":311.36,"endTime":314.84,"body":"like a horse and carriage\". But"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":311.36,"endTime":314.84,"body":"it doesn't actually have to be"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":314.84,"endTime":317.51,"body":"that way. And that's an"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":314.84,"endTime":317.51,"body":"assumption that you dig into in"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":317.51,"endTime":322.01,"body":"your first book, back in 2014,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":317.51,"endTime":322.01,"body":"based on research where you"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":322.01,"endTime":325.79,"body":"compare experiences of love and"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":322.01,"endTime":325.79,"body":"intimacy amongst Gujarati"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":325.79,"endTime":329.33,"body":"Indians born and brought up in"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":325.79,"endTime":329.33,"body":"India, and people of Gujarati"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":329.33,"endTime":333.5,"body":"Indian heritage born and brought"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":329.33,"endTime":333.5,"body":"up in the UK. We'll talk more"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":333.5,"endTime":336.86,"body":"about your findings in just a"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":333.5,"endTime":336.86,"body":"moment. But can you first tell"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":336.86,"endTime":339.41,"body":"us how you ended up in India in"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":336.86,"endTime":339.41,"body":"the first place, and what"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":339.44,"endTime":341.42,"body":"assumptions you took with you"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":339.44,"endTime":341.42,"body":"about love?"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":341.0,"endTime":345.5,"body":"Well, how I"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":341.0,"endTime":345.5,"body":"ended up in India was basically"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":345.5,"endTime":348.92,"body":"an administrative error, I hate"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":345.5,"endTime":348.92,"body":"to say, but that is the truth."},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":349.31,"endTime":352.67,"body":"So, I was doing my undergraduate"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":349.31,"endTime":352.67,"body":"and at the end of my"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":352.67,"endTime":355.64,"body":"undergraduate I applied to do a"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":352.67,"endTime":355.64,"body":"kind of an internship for ... to"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":355.64,"endTime":358.4,"body":"take part in an internship"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":355.64,"endTime":358.4,"body":"programme, and I requested to be"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":358.4,"endTime":361.37,"body":"sent to French-speaking Africa –"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":358.4,"endTime":361.37,"body":"I'd never been to Africa, I was"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":361.37,"endTime":364.61,"body":"interested in African culture,"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":361.37,"endTime":364.61,"body":"and I also wanted to work on my"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":364.61,"endTime":368.66,"body":"French – and they accidentally"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":364.61,"endTime":368.66,"body":"sent me to India. But when I"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":368.69,"endTime":371.75,"body":"arrived in India, I really fell"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":368.69,"endTime":371.75,"body":"in love with the culture and"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":371.75,"endTime":375.5,"body":"just found it to be so"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":371.75,"endTime":375.5,"body":"fascinating. And at that time, I"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":375.53,"endTime":378.74,"body":"thought it was sort of"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":375.53,"endTime":378.74,"body":"diametrically different to what"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":378.74,"endTime":382.13,"body":"I had been ... how I had been"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":378.74,"endTime":382.13,"body":"brought up in Ireland, and most"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":382.13,"endTime":384.89,"body":"specifically around"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":382.13,"endTime":384.89,"body":"relationships, which was really"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":385.79,"endTime":389.48,"body":"a topic that often came up with"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":385.79,"endTime":389.48,"body":"my friends there, who I miss."},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":390.26,"endTime":392.93,"body":"And I was in Gujarat, at the"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":390.26,"endTime":392.93,"body":"state of Gujarat, as well. So"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":392.93,"endTime":398.03,"body":"that was kind of, again,"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":392.93,"endTime":398.03,"body":"circumstance. And as I learned"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":398.03,"endTime":400.94,"body":"about their ideas of love and"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":398.03,"endTime":400.94,"body":"intimate relationships, and"},{"speaker":"marriage, I really thought","startTime":400.94,"endTime":403.46,"body":"\"Okay, this is something I want"},{"speaker":"marriage, I really thought","startTime":403.46,"endTime":407.51,"body":"to unpack\". Because up until"},{"speaker":"marriage, I really thought","startTime":403.46,"endTime":407.51,"body":"that point, I had myself thought"},{"speaker":"marriage, I really thought","startTime":407.87,"endTime":411.5,"body":"love is biological, and it's the"},{"speaker":"marriage, I really thought","startTime":407.87,"endTime":411.5,"body":"same the world over. And then,"},{"speaker":"when I was there, I said","startTime":411.5,"endTime":414.38,"body":"\"Okay,"},{"speaker":"when I was there, I said","startTime":411.5,"endTime":414.38,"body":"they have very different ideas"},{"speaker":"when I was there, I said","startTime":414.41,"endTime":417.68,"body":"of what love means.\" And as you"},{"speaker":"when I was there, I said","startTime":414.41,"endTime":417.68,"body":"say, how that is associated with"},{"speaker":"when I was there, I said","startTime":417.68,"endTime":421.82,"body":"marriage. And so I worked my way"},{"speaker":"when I was there, I said","startTime":417.68,"endTime":421.82,"body":"through a master's, and then to"},{"speaker":"when I was there, I said","startTime":421.82,"endTime":424.34,"body":"come back from my PhD, which is"},{"speaker":"when I was there, I said","startTime":421.82,"endTime":424.34,"body":"the work that you're talking"},{"speaker":"when I was there, I said","startTime":424.34,"endTime":424.79,"body":"about."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":424.96,"endTime":427.06,"body":"One of the"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":424.96,"endTime":427.06,"body":"stories you tell in your book is"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":427.06,"endTime":431.35,"body":"of a Gujarati Indian friend of"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":427.06,"endTime":431.35,"body":"yours in India named Antuk. Tell"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":431.35,"endTime":435.01,"body":"us about his approach to love,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":431.35,"endTime":435.01,"body":"this idea of wanting love to be"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":435.01,"endTime":436.39,"body":"arranged as you described it."},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":436.45,"endTime":439.09,"body":"Yeah, so,"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":436.45,"endTime":439.09,"body":"Antuk was really interesting."},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":439.09,"endTime":443.8,"body":"So, he spoke to me a lot about"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":439.09,"endTime":443.8,"body":"his desire for romance, and kind"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":443.8,"endTime":449.62,"body":"of this grand narrative that he"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":443.8,"endTime":449.62,"body":"seemed to desire. That's what he"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":449.62,"endTime":454.48,"body":"spoke to me about, about wanting"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":449.62,"endTime":454.48,"body":"to fall in love. And I set him"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":454.48,"endTime":457.87,"body":"up on a date with a friend of"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":454.48,"endTime":457.87,"body":"mine, who was ... I think she"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":457.87,"endTime":460.69,"body":"was Norwegian. And then she told"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":457.87,"endTime":460.69,"body":"me about the date afterwards,"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":460.72,"endTime":464.89,"body":"and he arrived in a limo to"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":460.72,"endTime":464.89,"body":"bring her out. Gujarat is an"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":464.92,"endTime":467.47,"body":"alcohol-free state, but he had"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":464.92,"endTime":467.47,"body":"champagne glasses with a large"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":467.47,"endTime":470.02,"body":"bottle of Coca Cola. And he"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":467.47,"endTime":470.02,"body":"brought her to the cinema. And"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":470.02,"endTime":472.27,"body":"then he was opening the door."},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":470.02,"endTime":472.27,"body":"And it was all kind of very"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":472.63,"endTime":475.78,"body":"chivalrous stereotypically"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":472.63,"endTime":475.78,"body":"romantic, what we might expect"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":475.78,"endTime":480.82,"body":"from a kind of Jane Austen novel"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":475.78,"endTime":480.82,"body":"type thing updated. And he told"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":480.82,"endTime":483.49,"body":"me he really enjoyed the date,"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":480.82,"endTime":483.49,"body":"but he wasn't going to go out on"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":483.49,"endTime":486.67,"body":"a date with her again. And in"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":483.49,"endTime":486.67,"body":"fact, his parents had already"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":486.7,"endTime":491.02,"body":"now arranged marriage for him."},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":486.7,"endTime":491.02,"body":"And he was getting married to a"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":491.14,"endTime":496.06,"body":"US-born Indian woman, and they"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":491.14,"endTime":496.06,"body":"had met once. And he would meet"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":496.06,"endTime":498.01,"body":"her again the day before the"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":496.06,"endTime":498.01,"body":"wedding, and then on the"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":498.01,"endTime":502.3,"body":"wedding; which is probably not"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":498.01,"endTime":502.3,"body":"very common practice within"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":502.3,"endTime":505.51,"body":"India, but it's quite common in"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":502.3,"endTime":505.51,"body":"transnational marriages, because"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":505.51,"endTime":507.91,"body":"of the expense of travelling and"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":505.51,"endTime":507.91,"body":"meeting up with one another"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":507.94,"endTime":513.07,"body":"before the wedding day. And this"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":507.94,"endTime":513.07,"body":"just seemed completely odd to"},{"speaker":"me. I was like","startTime":513.07,"endTime":517.27,"body":"\"How can you"},{"speaker":"me. I was like","startTime":513.07,"endTime":517.27,"body":"equate these two desires for"},{"speaker":"me. I was like","startTime":517.27,"endTime":520.0,"body":"love and romance and then, at"},{"speaker":"me. I was like","startTime":517.27,"endTime":520.0,"body":"the same time, set yourself up"},{"speaker":"me. I was like","startTime":520.0,"endTime":522.64,"body":"for an arranged marriage that"},{"speaker":"me. I was like","startTime":520.0,"endTime":522.64,"body":"your parents have effectively"},{"speaker":"me. I was like","startTime":522.64,"endTime":526.18,"body":"arranged for you?\" And after he"},{"speaker":"me. I was like","startTime":522.64,"endTime":526.18,"body":"was married, then he sent me"},{"speaker":"me. I was like","startTime":526.18,"endTime":529.42,"body":"messages about how it was"},{"speaker":"me. I was like","startTime":526.18,"endTime":529.42,"body":"everything he ever desired, and"},{"speaker":"me. I was like","startTime":529.45,"endTime":533.17,"body":"that she bought him breakfast in"},{"speaker":"me. I was like","startTime":529.45,"endTime":533.17,"body":"bed every morning, and it was"},{"speaker":"me. I was like","startTime":533.17,"endTime":535.51,"body":"sort of this perfect marriage."},{"speaker":"me. I was like","startTime":533.17,"endTime":535.51,"body":"I'm still in touch with them,"},{"speaker":"me. I was like","startTime":535.51,"endTime":538.03,"body":"and they're, they're married"},{"speaker":"me. I was like","startTime":535.51,"endTime":538.03,"body":"with two kids now. And they live"},{"speaker":"me. I was like","startTime":538.03,"endTime":542.5,"body":"in the US. Yes, that was a kind"},{"speaker":"me. I was like","startTime":538.03,"endTime":542.5,"body":"of another spark for me of \"oh,"},{"speaker":"me. I was like","startTime":542.53,"endTime":545.95,"body":"there's something odd going on"},{"speaker":"me. I was like","startTime":542.53,"endTime":545.95,"body":"here\". But upon reflection, and"},{"speaker":"me. I was like","startTime":545.95,"endTime":548.47,"body":"after sitting, I didn't think it"},{"speaker":"me. I was like","startTime":545.95,"endTime":548.47,"body":"was so odd. But that was my"},{"speaker":"me. I was like","startTime":548.47,"endTime":595.21,"body":"initial entry into the world of"},{"speaker":"me. I was like","startTime":548.47,"endTime":595.21,"body":"love and marriage in India."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":552.14,"endTime":554.785,"body":"Katherine, I"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":552.14,"endTime":554.785,"body":"think what's super interesting,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":554.845,"endTime":558.452,"body":"you encountered this idea of"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":554.845,"endTime":558.452,"body":"wanting love to be arranged and"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":558.512,"endTime":561.519,"body":"it's seeming kind of"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":558.512,"endTime":561.519,"body":"contradictory with what Antuk"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":561.579,"endTime":565.066,"body":"kind of thought about romance."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":561.579,"endTime":565.066,"body":"And I'm curious whether you"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":565.126,"endTime":568.673,"body":"think that actually that's not"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":565.126,"endTime":568.673,"body":"so far from where, you know,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":568.733,"endTime":571.92,"body":"so-called Western culture is"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":568.733,"endTime":571.92,"body":"now, and I'm thinking in"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":571.98,"endTime":575.767,"body":"particular of dating sites that"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":571.98,"endTime":575.767,"body":"use algorithms to hook us up or"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":575.828,"endTime":579.074,"body":"reality TV shows – there's a"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":575.828,"endTime":579.074,"body":"super popular one here in"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":579.134,"endTime":582.742,"body":"Australia, \"Married at First"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":579.134,"endTime":582.742,"body":"Sight\", where people, you know,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":582.802,"endTime":586.229,"body":"have these kind of shotgun"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":582.802,"endTime":586.229,"body":"weddings, don't even meet each"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":586.289,"endTime":589.896,"body":"other beforehand. You know, it"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":586.289,"endTime":589.896,"body":"seems we can't get married to"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":589.956,"endTime":593.804,"body":"strangers fast enough, and we're"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":589.956,"endTime":593.804,"body":"asking for help to do it right,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":593.864,"endTime":596.45,"body":"potentially on national"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":593.864,"endTime":596.45,"body":"television as well."},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":596.16,"endTime":598.135,"body":"I think"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":596.16,"endTime":598.135,"body":"that's a really interesting"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":598.191,"endTime":601.577,"body":"trend. And so, when I was doing"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":598.191,"endTime":601.577,"body":"my fieldwork that wasn't ..."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":601.4,"endTime":612.791,"body":"That's super"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":601.4,"endTime":612.791,"body":"interesting. And I think that"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":601.634,"endTime":604.738,"body":"that kind of wasn't really"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":601.634,"endTime":604.738,"body":"around. So, I mean, I talked"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":604.794,"endTime":608.406,"body":"about arranging love, that was a"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":604.794,"endTime":608.406,"body":"term that Alexis mentioned, and"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":608.463,"endTime":612.018,"body":"maybe I should explain it a bit,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":608.463,"endTime":612.018,"body":"in a bit more detail. So, what"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":612.075,"endTime":615.404,"body":"Antuk wanted and what other"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":612.075,"endTime":615.404,"body":"participants of mine wanted was"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":613.062,"endTime":630.421,"body":"those ideas about, like, what we"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":613.062,"endTime":630.421,"body":"should do, like the \"ticking of"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":615.461,"endTime":619.016,"body":"certain factors in their future"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":615.461,"endTime":619.016,"body":"spouse. So, they wanted them to"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":619.073,"endTime":622.177,"body":"be at the correct caste, the"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":619.073,"endTime":622.177,"body":"correct class, the correct"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":622.233,"endTime":625.619,"body":"height, the correct skin colour"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":622.233,"endTime":625.619,"body":"sometimes; various different"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":625.676,"endTime":629.118,"body":"factors, which they said would"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":625.676,"endTime":629.118,"body":"ensure that their family would"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":629.175,"endTime":632.787,"body":"be happy, and that would ensure"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":629.175,"endTime":632.787,"body":"a lasting relationship. Because,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":630.692,"endTime":645.338,"body":"boxes\", those norms is what"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":630.692,"endTime":645.338,"body":"makes it so sociologically"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":632.843,"endTime":636.229,"body":"from their point of view, a"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":632.843,"endTime":636.229,"body":"lasting relationship should have"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":636.286,"endTime":638.995,"body":"these various factors. They"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":636.286,"endTime":638.995,"body":"should have a common"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":639.051,"endTime":642.55,"body":"understanding of the world. So,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":639.051,"endTime":642.55,"body":"they wanted to make sure these"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":642.607,"endTime":646.049,"body":"factors were, if you'd like,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":642.607,"endTime":646.049,"body":"\"ticked off their box\" and then,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":645.609,"endTime":661.883,"body":"important, right? And in your"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":645.609,"endTime":661.883,"body":"book, you ... it considers the"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":646.106,"endTime":649.21,"body":"they would talk about making"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":646.106,"endTime":649.21,"body":"sure – through the various"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":649.266,"endTime":652.652,"body":"practices of intimacy, such as"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":649.266,"endTime":652.652,"body":"going on dates, and so on, so"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":652.709,"endTime":656.264,"body":"forth – they would create this"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":652.709,"endTime":656.264,"body":"love. So, they would arrange the"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":656.321,"endTime":659.368,"body":"love within the appropriate"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":656.321,"endTime":659.368,"body":"circumstances. And for me,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":659.425,"endTime":662.642,"body":"looking at, you know, UK or"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":659.425,"endTime":662.642,"body":"Ireland, or, you know, global"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":662.154,"endTime":677.614,"body":"values of people like Antuk,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":662.154,"endTime":677.614,"body":"alongside people of Gujarati"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":662.698,"endTime":666.141,"body":"North Euro-American society, we"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":662.698,"endTime":666.141,"body":"see similar processes, as you"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":666.197,"endTime":669.358,"body":"exactly say, in that people"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":666.197,"endTime":669.358,"body":"don't talk about it quite as"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":669.414,"endTime":672.969,"body":"explicitly, but they also tick"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":669.414,"endTime":672.969,"body":"these boxes. And they also, when"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":673.026,"endTime":676.356,"body":"we look at kind of research,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":673.026,"endTime":676.356,"body":"they are seeking and they have"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":676.412,"endTime":679.968,"body":"these ideas about \"what would be"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":676.412,"endTime":679.968,"body":"a correct partner for me\". And"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":677.885,"endTime":693.345,"body":"heritage in the UK, who also"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":677.885,"endTime":693.345,"body":"talked to you about love and"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":680.024,"endTime":683.015,"body":"some of it can be quite like"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":680.024,"endTime":683.015,"body":"\"similar interests\", for"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":683.072,"endTime":686.345,"body":"example, but often, these are"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":683.072,"endTime":686.345,"body":"around class differences and"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":686.401,"endTime":689.675,"body":"racial preferences. And so you"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":686.401,"endTime":689.675,"body":"see, if we look at marriage"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":689.731,"endTime":693.004,"body":"statistics, we see that people"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":689.731,"endTime":693.004,"body":"tend to marry somebody of a"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":693.061,"endTime":696.616,"body":"similar class background and of"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":693.061,"endTime":696.616,"body":"a particular ethnic background."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":693.616,"endTime":709.076,"body":"marriage. I'm wondering what"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":693.616,"endTime":709.076,"body":"their perspectives were, and"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":696.673,"endTime":700.228,"body":"Some of that is around exposure,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":696.673,"endTime":700.228,"body":"but some of it is around ideas"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":700.285,"endTime":703.276,"body":"around \"who would be an"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":700.285,"endTime":703.276,"body":"appropriate and correct match"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":703.332,"endTime":704.01,"body":"for myself\"."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":709.347,"endTime":725.078,"body":"whether that was perhaps shaped"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":709.347,"endTime":725.078,"body":"by the fact that they were"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":725.35,"endTime":740.81,"body":"talking to you? So, someone not"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":725.35,"endTime":740.81,"body":"from the same background."},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":741.47,"endTime":744.32,"body":"Yeah. As was"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":741.47,"endTime":744.32,"body":"kind of mentioned, it was kind"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":744.32,"endTime":746.78,"body":"of a comparative study. So, I"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":744.32,"endTime":746.78,"body":"was looking at cousins who had"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":746.78,"endTime":749.15,"body":"been – at least that was how it"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":746.78,"endTime":749.15,"body":"was initially designed – born"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":749.15,"endTime":751.22,"body":"and brought up in India and"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":749.15,"endTime":751.22,"body":"their cousins born and brought"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":751.22,"endTime":754.46,"body":"up in the UK. And for those who"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":751.22,"endTime":754.46,"body":"had been born and brought up in"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":754.46,"endTime":757.7,"body":"the UK, I sort of argued that"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":754.46,"endTime":757.7,"body":"there was three kind of main"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":757.7,"endTime":760.46,"body":"factors. So, there was cultural"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":757.7,"endTime":760.46,"body":"and thinking about the local UK"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":760.46,"endTime":764.15,"body":"culture and the Indian culture,"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":760.46,"endTime":764.15,"body":"and ideas around appropriate"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":764.15,"endTime":766.58,"body":"relationships from their"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":764.15,"endTime":766.58,"body":"families perspective, from their"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":766.58,"endTime":768.71,"body":"own perspective, from the kind"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":766.58,"endTime":768.71,"body":"of media that they were"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":769.13,"endTime":774.32,"body":"consuming. And then there was"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":769.13,"endTime":774.32,"body":"material factors. So, for"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":774.32,"endTime":777.44,"body":"example, they could live"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":774.32,"endTime":777.44,"body":"separately from their parents in"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":777.44,"endTime":780.35,"body":"a different city, they weren't"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":777.44,"endTime":780.35,"body":"under, kind of, the observation"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":780.56,"endTime":784.04,"body":"of elders to make sure that they"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":780.56,"endTime":784.04,"body":"had ... that they behaved in a"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":784.04,"endTime":787.73,"body":"particular way. And then the"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":784.04,"endTime":787.73,"body":"other one is positionality. So,"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":787.73,"endTime":792.14,"body":"being a part of a minoritized"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":787.73,"endTime":792.14,"body":"group, and being interviewed by"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":792.14,"endTime":796.01,"body":"somebody from a White Irish"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":792.14,"endTime":796.01,"body":"background, if you'd like. So, I"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":796.01,"endTime":799.46,"body":"think for sure that influenced"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":796.01,"endTime":799.46,"body":"how they spoke with me, it"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":799.46,"endTime":802.19,"body":"influenced the recruitment. So,"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":799.46,"endTime":802.19,"body":"for example, I found it quite"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":802.19,"endTime":806.33,"body":"difficult to recruit"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":802.19,"endTime":806.33,"body":"participants who were intending"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":806.33,"endTime":808.94,"body":"and wanted to have an arranged"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":806.33,"endTime":808.94,"body":"marriage. And I think at that"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":809.0,"endTime":812.03,"body":"time point – I think it's"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":809.0,"endTime":812.03,"body":"shifted a little bit now – but"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":812.03,"endTime":815.42,"body":"at that time point, there was a"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":812.03,"endTime":815.42,"body":"lot of talk in the media about"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":815.42,"endTime":818.51,"body":"forced marriage, and they were"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":815.42,"endTime":818.51,"body":"often arranged marriage and"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":818.51,"endTime":822.2,"body":"forced marriage were"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":818.51,"endTime":822.2,"body":"interchangeably used sometimes."},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":822.47,"endTime":825.74,"body":"And so there was a concern"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":822.47,"endTime":825.74,"body":"explicitly expressed to me as"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":825.74,"endTime":829.67,"body":"well by my participants, about"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":825.74,"endTime":829.67,"body":"my research and about how there"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":829.67,"endTime":833.63,"body":"was misunderstandings about what"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":829.67,"endTime":833.63,"body":"arranged marriage meant; which"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":833.63,"endTime":838.7,"body":"also encouraged them as well to"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":833.63,"endTime":838.7,"body":"position themselves as not"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":838.7,"endTime":841.58,"body":"having an arranged marriage. So,"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":838.7,"endTime":841.58,"body":"explicitly rejecting that term,"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":841.82,"endTime":844.37,"body":"even when they were. So, they"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":841.82,"endTime":844.37,"body":"called it an introduced"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":844.37,"endTime":847.31,"body":"marriage, although there were"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":844.37,"endTime":847.31,"body":"some certain ways in which they"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":847.31,"endTime":850.85,"body":"were different. So, for sure,"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":847.31,"endTime":850.85,"body":"who I was influenced the way"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":850.85,"endTime":852.41,"body":"they presented themselves."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":852.63,"endTime":855.09,"body":"So, to clarify,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":852.63,"endTime":855.09,"body":"your interviewees for that"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":855.09,"endTime":859.11,"body":"particular project identified as"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":855.09,"endTime":859.11,"body":"heterosexual, and they were in"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":859.14,"endTime":862.8,"body":"or designed to be in monogamous"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":859.14,"endTime":862.8,"body":"mixed-sex relationships, right?"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":863.37,"endTime":867.33,"body":"I'm asking this question because"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":863.37,"endTime":867.33,"body":"I'm, I'm thinking about the way"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":867.33,"endTime":871.17,"body":"in which family formation and"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":867.33,"endTime":871.17,"body":"gay and lesbian communities can"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":871.17,"endTime":874.08,"body":"be a bit different. So, if you"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":871.17,"endTime":874.08,"body":"think about Kath Weston's"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":874.08,"endTime":880.44,"body":"classic \"Families We Choose\" and"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":874.08,"endTime":880.44,"body":"how she illustrates how gay men"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":880.44,"endTime":884.13,"body":"and women construct their own"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":880.44,"endTime":884.13,"body":"ideas of kinship, drawing on the"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":884.13,"endTime":889.56,"body":"symbolism of love and friendship"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":884.13,"endTime":889.56,"body":"and biology. So, I'm wondering,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":889.59,"endTime":893.16,"body":"you know, how this might have"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":889.59,"endTime":893.16,"body":"shaped your data – the fact that"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":893.16,"endTime":896.91,"body":"your participants were"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":893.16,"endTime":896.91,"body":"heterosexual – and how things"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":896.91,"endTime":899.34,"body":"might maybe have looked"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":896.91,"endTime":899.34,"body":"different with participants who"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":899.34,"endTime":900.6,"body":"identified as queer?"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":900.78,"endTime":902.19,"body":"Yeah, I think"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":900.78,"endTime":902.19,"body":"that's a really important"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":902.22,"endTime":907.59,"body":"question. So, in sociology, we"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":902.22,"endTime":907.59,"body":"draw a lot on what is known as"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":907.74,"endTime":910.32,"body":"Script Theory, particularly in"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":907.74,"endTime":910.32,"body":"studies around intimacy and"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":910.32,"endTime":915.93,"body":"sexuality. So, this idea that we"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":910.32,"endTime":915.93,"body":"have a recognisable narrative,"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":915.93,"endTime":918.21,"body":"for example, around love and"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":915.93,"endTime":918.21,"body":"intimacy. So, this is"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":918.21,"endTime":922.62,"body":"ubiquitous, right, in novels and"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":918.21,"endTime":922.62,"body":"in films. And there's an"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":922.65,"endTime":925.2,"body":"\"appropriate\" way about how"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":922.65,"endTime":925.2,"body":"relationships should pan out,"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":925.23,"endTime":928.71,"body":"and how we recognise intimate"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":925.23,"endTime":928.71,"body":"practices. So, if someone buys"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":928.71,"endTime":931.53,"body":"me flowers, but you know,"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":928.71,"endTime":931.53,"body":"they're expressing, well ... if"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":931.53,"endTime":934.41,"body":"a man buys a woman flowers,"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":931.53,"endTime":934.41,"body":"typically, they're expressing a"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":934.41,"endTime":936.6,"body":"certain feeling towards me, and"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":934.41,"endTime":936.6,"body":"so on and so forth. And the same"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":936.6,"endTime":939.12,"body":"with families, there are certain"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":936.6,"endTime":939.12,"body":"things we recognisably"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":939.12,"endTime":942.81,"body":"understand as an \"appropriate\""},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":939.12,"endTime":942.81,"body":"family practice. And, I guess,"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":942.81,"endTime":945.96,"body":"many of the arguments in the"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":942.81,"endTime":945.96,"body":"literature around same-sex or"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":945.96,"endTime":949.83,"body":"queer families is that they're"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":945.96,"endTime":949.83,"body":"freer from these scripts, that"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":949.83,"endTime":953.22,"body":"they don't have to draw on them."},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":949.83,"endTime":953.22,"body":"Sometimes they may draw on them"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":953.22,"endTime":955.8,"body":"in order to justify and"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":953.22,"endTime":955.8,"body":"demonstrate themselves as"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":955.83,"endTime":960.18,"body":"\"appropriately\" a family and a"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":955.83,"endTime":960.18,"body":"couple. But they can also veer"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":960.18,"endTime":962.73,"body":"away from these scripts."},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":960.18,"endTime":962.73,"body":"Potentially have more freedom to"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":962.73,"endTime":966.15,"body":"do so and will – kind of from a"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":962.73,"endTime":966.15,"body":"political perspective – try to"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":966.15,"endTime":970.2,"body":"do so. And that can be positive"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":966.15,"endTime":970.2,"body":"for both people who are in"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":970.23,"endTime":973.5,"body":"mixed-sex relationships or"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":970.23,"endTime":973.5,"body":"heterosexual relationships or"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":973.5,"endTime":977.46,"body":"more normative families, because"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":973.5,"endTime":977.46,"body":"it can push forward our dynamics"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":977.46,"endTime":979.71,"body":"and understanding of what a"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":977.46,"endTime":979.71,"body":"family and a relationship can"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":979.71,"endTime":980.04,"body":"be."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":980.57,"endTime":984.41,"body":"Katherine. So,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":980.57,"endTime":984.41,"body":"your research showed us how love"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":984.95,"endTime":988.31,"body":"is really socially constructed."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":984.95,"endTime":988.31,"body":"So, you know, as much as we"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":988.31,"endTime":990.68,"body":"would like to think it's a"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":988.31,"endTime":990.68,"body":"matter of being struck by"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":990.68,"endTime":995.63,"body":"Cupid's bow, it's really shaped"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":990.68,"endTime":995.63,"body":"by our time and place and"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":995.63,"endTime":1001.09,"body":"culture and context. So, having"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":995.63,"endTime":1001.09,"body":"discussed that, we thought we'd"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1001.09,"endTime":1004.66,"body":"now turn to dig into what love"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1001.09,"endTime":1004.66,"body":"means sociologically, and"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1004.69,"endTime":1008.95,"body":"intimacy too. Because those are"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1004.69,"endTime":1008.95,"body":"two things that often go hand in"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1008.95,"endTime":1015.55,"body":"hand, or at least we assume they"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1008.95,"endTime":1015.55,"body":"do. So, Katherine, is love seen"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1015.58,"endTime":1020.23,"body":"as something that's positive"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1015.58,"endTime":1020.23,"body":"generally, but intimacy is maybe"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1020.23,"endTime":1022.33,"body":"a bit broader? Like, how would"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1020.23,"endTime":1022.33,"body":"you define it?"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1022.87,"endTime":1026.08,"body":"So, I would"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1022.87,"endTime":1026.08,"body":"say that love is more associated"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1026.08,"endTime":1030.1,"body":"with the emotion; so, the kinds"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1026.08,"endTime":1030.1,"body":"of feelings that we experience."},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1030.37,"endTime":1035.68,"body":"Whereas intimacy can be tied to"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1030.37,"endTime":1035.68,"body":"the emotion or can not be tied"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1035.68,"endTime":1039.58,"body":"to the emotion, and often in"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1035.68,"endTime":1039.58,"body":"sociology, when we talk about"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1039.58,"endTime":1044.2,"body":"intimacy, we're focusing on"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1039.58,"endTime":1044.2,"body":"practices. So, the ways in which"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1044.23,"endTime":1048.01,"body":"people demonstrate to one"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1044.23,"endTime":1048.01,"body":"another that feeling of"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1048.01,"endTime":1051.58,"body":"closeness, or how those feelings"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1048.01,"endTime":1051.58,"body":"of closeness can be generated,"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1052.0,"endTime":1055.42,"body":"and then whether and how that is"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1052.0,"endTime":1055.42,"body":"linked with love."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1055.93,"endTime":1058.51,"body":"And intimacy can"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1055.93,"endTime":1058.51,"body":"be between people who don't even"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1058.51,"endTime":1061.21,"body":"know each other's names, or"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1058.51,"endTime":1061.21,"body":"where there's a clear power"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1061.21,"endTime":1065.95,"body":"imbalance. I am thinking here of"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1061.21,"endTime":1065.95,"body":"that collection, edited by"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1065.95,"endTime":1070.27,"body":"Eileen Boris and Rhacel Salazar"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1065.95,"endTime":1070.27,"body":"Parreñas, \"Intimate Labors\"."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1070.66,"endTime":1073.75,"body":"That collection highlights those"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1070.66,"endTime":1073.75,"body":"points where money and intimacy"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1073.75,"endTime":1077.35,"body":"meet. So, looking at things like"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1073.75,"endTime":1077.35,"body":"domestic work, care work, sex"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1077.35,"endTime":1080.98,"body":"work, even sperm donation. Could"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1077.35,"endTime":1080.98,"body":"you talk to us about that a wee"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1080.98,"endTime":1081.25,"body":"bit?"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1081.0,"endTime":1082.86,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1081.0,"endTime":1082.86,"body":"absolutely. I think that's a"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1082.86,"endTime":1086.4,"body":"really interesting body of work."},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1082.86,"endTime":1086.4,"body":"And as you say, it demonstrates"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1086.4,"endTime":1089.67,"body":"how we can be intimate with"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1086.4,"endTime":1089.67,"body":"people without having that"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1089.67,"endTime":1093.0,"body":"loving or close connection. So,"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1089.67,"endTime":1093.0,"body":"you've brought up some classic"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1093.0,"endTime":1095.7,"body":"examples there around sex work;"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1093.0,"endTime":1095.7,"body":"we could also think about"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1095.73,"endTime":1098.88,"body":"hairdressers, who give us"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1095.73,"endTime":1098.88,"body":"massage or are very intimately"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1098.88,"endTime":1102.09,"body":"close with us, but it's more of"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1098.88,"endTime":1102.09,"body":"a transactional relationship."},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1102.57,"endTime":1106.41,"body":"Although, I have a PhD student"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1102.57,"endTime":1106.41,"body":"who's doing work on a hair salon"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1106.41,"endTime":1110.37,"body":"and the intimacy that's created"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1106.41,"endTime":1110.37,"body":"between them, and the inequality"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1110.37,"endTime":1113.16,"body":"and how people can feel. So, the"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1110.37,"endTime":1113.16,"body":"person who's receiving the"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1113.16,"endTime":1116.34,"body":"massage can feel like \"oh, this"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1113.16,"endTime":1116.34,"body":"hairdresser is my friend\". And"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1116.34,"endTime":1119.01,"body":"then we can think about the"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1116.34,"endTime":1119.01,"body":"emotional labour that's involved"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1119.01,"endTime":1122.1,"body":"– thinking of Arlie Hochschild's"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1119.01,"endTime":1122.1,"body":"work – on the part of the"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1122.1,"endTime":1127.29,"body":"hairdresser, who knows that part"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1122.1,"endTime":1127.29,"body":"of her work, or his work, is"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1127.32,"endTime":1130.98,"body":"creating this intimate moment"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1127.32,"endTime":1130.98,"body":"for the client, but they"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1130.98,"endTime":1134.94,"body":"wouldn't necessarily have those"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1130.98,"endTime":1134.94,"body":"loving or emotional connections"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1134.94,"endTime":1138.18,"body":"beneath it. So, as you say,"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1134.94,"endTime":1138.18,"body":"there can be disparities. And"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1138.18,"endTime":1141.09,"body":"then in the same point, you"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1138.18,"endTime":1141.09,"body":"know, you can have monetary"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1141.09,"endTime":1144.54,"body":"transactions between people who"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1141.09,"endTime":1144.54,"body":"are extremely close, and who"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1144.54,"endTime":1147.57,"body":"would identify themselves as"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1144.54,"endTime":1147.57,"body":"being in a two-way, intimate"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1147.57,"endTime":1150.84,"body":"relationship. So, more kind of"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1147.57,"endTime":1150.84,"body":"classically, we often had"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1150.84,"endTime":1153.75,"body":"housewives receiving a kind of a"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1150.84,"endTime":1153.75,"body":"salary from their partners. But"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1153.75,"endTime":1156.12,"body":"we also have nannies who can"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1153.75,"endTime":1156.12,"body":"have a deep connection with"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1156.12,"endTime":1159.33,"body":"their children, who are being"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1156.12,"endTime":1159.33,"body":"paid to be in that position. And"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1159.33,"endTime":1163.41,"body":"I think Parreñas's work really"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1159.33,"endTime":1163.41,"body":"taps into that actually, about"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1163.41,"endTime":1167.91,"body":"how domestic migrant workers can"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1163.41,"endTime":1167.91,"body":"feel that love for the people"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1167.91,"endTime":1171.0,"body":"that they're taking care of, and"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1167.91,"endTime":1171.0,"body":"the kind of deficit that ends up"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1171.03,"endTime":1174.18,"body":"resulting in that. Because their"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1171.03,"endTime":1174.18,"body":"own children are missing that"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1174.18,"endTime":1177.57,"body":"kind of love and affection,"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1174.18,"endTime":1177.57,"body":"which they are giving, possibly,"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1177.57,"endTime":1179.76,"body":"to their clients and the"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1177.57,"endTime":1179.76,"body":"children that they're looking"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1179.76,"endTime":1180.24,"body":"after."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1181.44,"endTime":1183.57,"body":"And"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1181.44,"endTime":1183.57,"body":"actually, love isn't always"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1183.57,"endTime":1187.26,"body":"benign, either, is it? I was"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1183.57,"endTime":1187.26,"body":"reading this great piece on Love"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1187.26,"endTime":1190.08,"body":"by Julia Carter on The"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1187.26,"endTime":1190.08,"body":"Sociological Review site, and"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1190.08,"endTime":1195.24,"body":"she mentions how love can be a"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1190.08,"endTime":1195.24,"body":"\"legitimating ideology\". I'm"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1195.24,"endTime":1199.05,"body":"wondering what you make of that?"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1195.24,"endTime":1199.05,"body":"I guess, love can be used to"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1199.05,"endTime":1204.18,"body":"justify war and nationalism,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1199.05,"endTime":1204.18,"body":"like \"love of your country\", and"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1204.18,"endTime":1210.27,"body":"consumerism too. Both of those"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1204.18,"endTime":1210.27,"body":"things can cause harm. So, it's"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1210.3,"endTime":1212.52,"body":"not always all that good. Right?"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1210.3,"endTime":1212.52,"body":"I was wondering what your"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1212.52,"endTime":1213.48,"body":"thoughts on that were?"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1213.96,"endTime":1215.82,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1213.96,"endTime":1215.82,"body":"absolutely. I mean, you brought"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1215.82,"endTime":1219.99,"body":"up a really great recent example"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1215.82,"endTime":1219.99,"body":"of Will Smith who hits the"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1219.99,"endTime":1223.32,"body":"comedian in the Oscars, and it"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1219.99,"endTime":1223.32,"body":"was justified through the"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1223.32,"endTime":1226.26,"body":"feelings that he had for his"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1223.32,"endTime":1226.26,"body":"wife. So, that's a kind of a"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1226.26,"endTime":1230.85,"body":"very personalised example. But"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1226.26,"endTime":1230.85,"body":"if we look at kind of rhetoric"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1230.85,"endTime":1234.18,"body":"around colonialism, we see that"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1230.85,"endTime":1234.18,"body":"part of the justification for"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1234.18,"endTime":1237.96,"body":"colonialism was that the"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1234.18,"endTime":1237.96,"body":"intimate relationships of the"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1237.99,"endTime":1241.17,"body":"kind of, inverted commas,"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1237.99,"endTime":1241.17,"body":"\"natives\" in the colonised lands"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1241.38,"endTime":1245.4,"body":"were not sufficiently \"modern\""},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1241.38,"endTime":1245.4,"body":"and \"appropriate\". And that was"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1245.4,"endTime":1248.04,"body":"a way of justifying"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1245.4,"endTime":1248.04,"body":"colonisation, saying: \"Look at"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1248.04,"endTime":1250.89,"body":"them, they have so many partners"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1248.04,"endTime":1250.89,"body":"and they don't have a"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1250.89,"endTime":1253.65,"body":"marriage-based relationship,"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1250.89,"endTime":1253.65,"body":"which is blessed by Christ\" and"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1253.65,"endTime":1256.92,"body":"so on and so forth. So,"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1253.65,"endTime":1256.92,"body":"absolutely, it can be used in"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1256.92,"endTime":1260.19,"body":"the legitimation of different"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1256.92,"endTime":1260.19,"body":"kinds of both positive and"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1260.19,"endTime":1262.56,"body":"negative behaviours on a"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1260.19,"endTime":1262.56,"body":"personal level, but also on a"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1262.56,"endTime":1265.98,"body":"kind of governing intimacies"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1262.56,"endTime":1265.98,"body":"wider level."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1265.0,"endTime":1265.72,"body":"That's so"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1265.0,"endTime":1265.72,"body":"fascinating, because today,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1265.72,"endTime":1267.13,"body":"there's all of these kind of"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1265.72,"endTime":1267.13,"body":"calls out there for \"more love\","},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1267.16,"endTime":1276.76,"body":"a \"more loving society\", all"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1267.16,"endTime":1276.76,"body":"that sort of jazz. But, I guess,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1276.76,"endTime":1279.31,"body":"what we're getting at here is"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1276.76,"endTime":1279.31,"body":"the need to ask who is talking"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1279.31,"endTime":1283.36,"body":"about love? How are they"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1279.31,"endTime":1283.36,"body":"invoking it? To what ends? You"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1283.36,"endTime":1287.23,"body":"know, etc, etc, etc. And of"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1283.36,"endTime":1287.23,"body":"course, who's excluded from the"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1287.23,"endTime":1289.3,"body":"idea of love that's been put out"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1287.23,"endTime":1289.3,"body":"there as well?"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1289.51,"endTime":1291.37,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1289.51,"endTime":1291.37,"body":"absolutely. So, reflecting, for"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1291.37,"endTime":1294.73,"body":"example, on the work of Bev"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1291.37,"endTime":1294.73,"body":"Skeggs, who obviously also did a"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1294.73,"endTime":1298.78,"body":"podcast with you around care."},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1294.73,"endTime":1298.78,"body":"So, when you think about who"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1298.78,"endTime":1303.58,"body":"receives care and how that can"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1298.78,"endTime":1303.58,"body":"be legitimised through a love"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1303.58,"endTime":1307.3,"body":"and a personal connection. So,"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1303.58,"endTime":1307.3,"body":"if we think about, for example"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1307.3,"endTime":1310.75,"body":"... I often think about the"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1307.3,"endTime":1310.75,"body":"justification around sending our"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1310.75,"endTime":1313.51,"body":"children to private schools. So,"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1310.75,"endTime":1313.51,"body":"we know on a kind of a societal"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1313.51,"endTime":1316.57,"body":"level – in the UK it's very"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1313.51,"endTime":1316.57,"body":"dominant in sort of policy and"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1316.57,"endTime":1319.9,"body":"politics, political discourse or"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1316.57,"endTime":1319.9,"body":"how politicians talk about"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1319.9,"endTime":1323.26,"body":"education – we know that private"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1319.9,"endTime":1323.26,"body":"school is not good for social"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1323.26,"endTime":1328.54,"body":"mobility across the population."},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1323.26,"endTime":1328.54,"body":"And often politicians talk"},{"speaker":"about","startTime":1328.54,"endTime":1330.94,"body":"\"Okay, so, we should get"},{"speaker":"about","startTime":1328.54,"endTime":1330.94,"body":"rid of\" – particularly left wing"},{"speaker":"about","startTime":1330.94,"endTime":1333.37,"body":"politicians – \"we should get rid"},{"speaker":"about","startTime":1330.94,"endTime":1333.37,"body":"of private education\", but at"},{"speaker":"about","startTime":1333.37,"endTime":1336.67,"body":"the same time, they send their"},{"speaker":"about","startTime":1333.37,"endTime":1336.67,"body":"children to private schools with"},{"speaker":"about","startTime":1336.67,"endTime":1340.54,"body":"a justification of, well, I love"},{"speaker":"about","startTime":1336.67,"endTime":1340.54,"body":"and I care for my child. And"},{"speaker":"about","startTime":1340.54,"endTime":1344.14,"body":"having that kind of familial"},{"speaker":"about","startTime":1340.54,"endTime":1344.14,"body":"connection can justify a"},{"speaker":"about","startTime":1344.14,"endTime":1346.78,"body":"behaviour that is not good for"},{"speaker":"about","startTime":1344.14,"endTime":1346.78,"body":"society at large or is not"},{"speaker":"about","startTime":1346.78,"endTime":1352.24,"body":"consistent with one, you know,"},{"speaker":"about","startTime":1346.78,"endTime":1352.24,"body":"one's political ideals. And so"},{"speaker":"about","startTime":1352.24,"endTime":1355.39,"body":"that, I think, is an example of"},{"speaker":"about","startTime":1352.24,"endTime":1355.39,"body":"how love can be used to"},{"speaker":"about","startTime":1355.42,"endTime":1358.09,"body":"legitimate a kind of a"},{"speaker":"about","startTime":1355.42,"endTime":1358.09,"body":"behaviour, which is not in"},{"speaker":"about","startTime":1358.09,"endTime":1361.93,"body":"consonance with the professed"},{"speaker":"about","startTime":1358.09,"endTime":1361.93,"body":"ideals of the person"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1362.14,"endTime":1364.3,"body":"Katherine, I"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1362.14,"endTime":1364.3,"body":"just wanted to go back on"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1364.3,"endTime":1367.18,"body":"something you said about"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1364.3,"endTime":1367.18,"body":"colonialism. And I was wondering"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1367.18,"endTime":1371.32,"body":"if you can elaborate on it maybe"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1367.18,"endTime":1371.32,"body":"about how we can imagine"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1371.35,"endTime":1374.77,"body":"decolonizing love, like, what"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1371.35,"endTime":1374.77,"body":"would that look like?"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1375.47,"endTime":1376.7,"body":"I think"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1375.47,"endTime":1376.7,"body":"that's a really interesting"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1376.7,"endTime":1379.94,"body":"question and one that hasn't"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1376.7,"endTime":1379.94,"body":"been sufficiently addressed in"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1379.94,"endTime":1383.18,"body":"sociology, and one which I'm"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1379.94,"endTime":1383.18,"body":"trying to work on with my"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1383.18,"endTime":1387.89,"body":"colleagues. So, we held a kind"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1383.18,"endTime":1387.89,"body":"of a seminar series inviting"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1387.89,"endTime":1391.25,"body":"different people to consider the"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1387.89,"endTime":1391.25,"body":"decolonization of love and"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1391.25,"endTime":1394.82,"body":"relationships, and that really"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1391.25,"endTime":1394.82,"body":"kind of show the darth of"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1394.85,"endTime":1399.53,"body":"research in this area. Thinking"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1394.85,"endTime":1399.53,"body":"about my own research in India,"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1400.01,"endTime":1414.74,"body":"I think what's really"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1400.01,"endTime":1414.74,"body":"interesting is that the kind of"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1414.95,"endTime":1417.74,"body":"suppositions that I made about"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1414.95,"endTime":1417.74,"body":"what was happening in India,"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1417.74,"endTime":1420.47,"body":"were often based on a kind of a"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1417.74,"endTime":1420.47,"body":"misunderstanding of what, in the"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1420.53,"endTime":1422.96,"body":"Global South, love and"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1420.53,"endTime":1422.96,"body":"relationships is like, and that"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1422.96,"endTime":1426.62,"body":"that it was not as \"advanced\" or"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1422.96,"endTime":1426.62,"body":"was on its pathway to what love"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1426.62,"endTime":1427.7,"body":"and relationships look like in"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1426.62,"endTime":1427.7,"body":"more, quote unquote, \"modern\""},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1427.7,"endTime":1429.11,"body":"societies. But actually, because"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1427.7,"endTime":1429.11,"body":"of the colonial relationship,"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1429.11,"endTime":1432.38,"body":"the UK was hugely influential in"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1429.11,"endTime":1432.38,"body":"how intimate relationships now"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1432.38,"endTime":1436.16,"body":"are set up. In fact, they were"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1432.38,"endTime":1436.16,"body":"much more fluid pre colonisation"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1436.37,"endTime":1440.45,"body":"from the UK into India, there"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1436.37,"endTime":1440.45,"body":"was more fluidity around gender,"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1440.45,"endTime":1442.49,"body":"as well, and gender"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1440.45,"endTime":1442.49,"body":"relationships and sexual"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1442.49,"endTime":1445.67,"body":"relationships. And there still"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1442.49,"endTime":1445.67,"body":"remained to be the case in"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1445.67,"endTime":1449.33,"body":"certain caste groups and in"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1445.67,"endTime":1449.33,"body":"certain groups that weren't kind"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1449.33,"endTime":1452.18,"body":"of, not colonised, but weren't"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1449.33,"endTime":1452.18,"body":"brought into the colonisation"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1452.18,"endTime":1456.38,"body":"process to the same extent. So,"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1452.18,"endTime":1456.38,"body":"for me, decolonization of love"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1456.38,"endTime":1461.09,"body":"and intimacy is recognising how"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1456.38,"endTime":1461.09,"body":"colonisation has actually shaped"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1461.09,"endTime":1464.48,"body":"and is implicated in"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1461.09,"endTime":1464.48,"body":"contemporary marriage and"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1464.48,"endTime":1467.03,"body":"relationships, and how we view"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1464.48,"endTime":1467.03,"body":"and how we see them."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1467.48,"endTime":1469.04,"body":"Yeah, that's"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1467.48,"endTime":1469.04,"body":"definitely something we need to"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1469.04,"endTime":1472.43,"body":"think more about. One other"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1469.04,"endTime":1472.43,"body":"notion that's been discussed"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1472.46,"endTime":1477.89,"body":"more is maybe Zygmunt Bauman's"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1472.46,"endTime":1477.89,"body":"idea of liquid love. Can you"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1477.89,"endTime":1478.97,"body":"tell us a bit about that?"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1478.99,"endTime":1482.44,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1478.99,"endTime":1482.44,"body":"absolutely. So, this is related"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1482.44,"endTime":1486.04,"body":"to the idea of the"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1482.44,"endTime":1486.04,"body":"individualization of society."},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1486.07,"endTime":1491.56,"body":"So, in modern or contemporary"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1486.07,"endTime":1491.56,"body":"society, we are less beholden to"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1492.31,"endTime":1495.7,"body":"particular ideas about how we"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1492.31,"endTime":1495.7,"body":"should \"appropriately\" behave."},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1495.97,"endTime":1501.19,"body":"So, in pre-contemporary times,"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1495.97,"endTime":1501.19,"body":"according to Bauman and Beck and"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1501.19,"endTime":1505.66,"body":"Beck-Gernsheim, and Giddens to a"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1501.19,"endTime":1505.66,"body":"certain extent, the idea is that"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1505.69,"endTime":1509.08,"body":"people expected to have a"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1505.69,"endTime":1509.08,"body":"similar family a similar career"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1509.08,"endTime":1512.62,"body":"and a similar role in life to"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1509.08,"endTime":1512.62,"body":"their parents before them, and"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1512.62,"endTime":1516.73,"body":"that there was kind of strict"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1512.62,"endTime":1516.73,"body":"ideas about who we should be and"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1516.73,"endTime":1520.75,"body":"who we will be. And in"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1516.73,"endTime":1520.75,"body":"contemporary society, things are"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1520.75,"endTime":1524.74,"body":"more liquid or fluid, in that we"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1520.75,"endTime":1524.74,"body":"have more choice in how we can"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1524.74,"endTime":1528.07,"body":"act in the world, there are more"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1524.74,"endTime":1528.07,"body":"options open to us, we can"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1528.07,"endTime":1531.19,"body":"migrate, there's much more kind"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1528.07,"endTime":1531.19,"body":"of fluid boundaries between"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1531.19,"endTime":1535.93,"body":"different countries – in"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1531.19,"endTime":1535.93,"body":"parentheses for some people, and"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1535.93,"endTime":1539.44,"body":"not for everybody – and"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1535.93,"endTime":1539.44,"body":"therefore, our relationships are"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1539.44,"endTime":1543.67,"body":"also more fluid; we can imagine"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1539.44,"endTime":1543.67,"body":"divorce now, we can get into a"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1543.67,"endTime":1547.15,"body":"relationship and not feel like"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1543.67,"endTime":1547.15,"body":"we have to stay within that"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1547.15,"endTime":1549.64,"body":"relationship, which we might"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1547.15,"endTime":1549.64,"body":"have felt beforehand because of"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1549.64,"endTime":1553.33,"body":"traditional ideals of family and"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1549.64,"endTime":1553.33,"body":"marriage. So, this greater"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1553.36,"endTime":1556.48,"body":"liquidness is about fluidity in"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1553.36,"endTime":1556.48,"body":"and out of different kinds of"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1556.48,"endTime":1559.42,"body":"relationships and family, and"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1556.48,"endTime":1559.42,"body":"Bauman's kind of very critical"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1559.42,"endTime":1562.39,"body":"and negative about that. So"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1559.42,"endTime":1562.39,"body":"saying: \"Well, this has brought"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1562.39,"endTime":1565.9,"body":"more fragility to intimate"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1562.39,"endTime":1565.9,"body":"connections between people and"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1565.9,"endTime":1569.98,"body":"ultimately is not very positive"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1565.9,"endTime":1569.98,"body":"for the wellbeing of individuals"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1569.98,"endTime":1570.79,"body":"and society\"."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1571.26,"endTime":1574.11,"body":"But you, you kind"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1571.26,"endTime":1574.11,"body":"of want to challenge all of that"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1574.5,"endTime":1577.92,"body":"a little bit. Right, Katherine?"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1574.5,"endTime":1577.92,"body":"Like, that isn't universally the"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1577.92,"endTime":1578.52,"body":"case?"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1578.78,"endTime":1581.24,"body":"I think it's"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1578.78,"endTime":1581.24,"body":"not universally the case on a"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1581.24,"endTime":1583.82,"body":"kind of a global scale, and I"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1581.24,"endTime":1583.82,"body":"think it's not universally the"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1583.82,"endTime":1587.69,"body":"case even in the UK, where he"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1583.82,"endTime":1587.69,"body":"was writing about, or Western"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1587.69,"endTime":1592.34,"body":"Europe. So, this idea that I"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1587.69,"endTime":1592.34,"body":"sort of hinted at, that borders"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1592.64,"endTime":1597.47,"body":"are now fluid, of course, we"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1592.64,"endTime":1597.47,"body":"know that migration is, you"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1597.47,"endTime":1601.55,"body":"know, very contested. We had"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1597.47,"endTime":1601.55,"body":"Brexit recently here in the UK,"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1601.55,"endTime":1604.79,"body":"so certainly not everyone can"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1601.55,"endTime":1604.79,"body":"move about as freely in the"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1604.79,"endTime":1609.02,"body":"global world. But also, I think"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1604.79,"endTime":1609.02,"body":"the work around"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1609.02,"endTime":1613.34,"body":"individualization has been"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1609.02,"endTime":1613.34,"body":"critiqued for overlooking a lot"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1613.34,"endTime":1617.75,"body":"of empirical work, which shows"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1613.34,"endTime":1617.75,"body":"the lasting desire for"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1617.75,"endTime":1620.63,"body":"commitment, even if it always"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1617.75,"endTime":1620.63,"body":"doesn't ... doesn't always pan"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1620.63,"endTime":1623.9,"body":"out. And so, the kind of rates"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1620.63,"endTime":1623.9,"body":"of marriage dropped a little bit"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1623.9,"endTime":1626.96,"body":"and certainly divorce went up."},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1623.9,"endTime":1626.96,"body":"But still, you know, rates of"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1626.96,"endTime":1629.66,"body":"marriage on the whole, most"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1626.96,"endTime":1629.66,"body":"people do expect to and do"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1629.66,"endTime":1633.98,"body":"ultimately get married. And"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1629.66,"endTime":1633.98,"body":"people certainly put a lot of"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1633.98,"endTime":1638.69,"body":"emphasis on familial"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1633.98,"endTime":1638.69,"body":"relationships. And I think, you"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1638.69,"endTime":1640.37,"body":"know, another thing that was"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1638.69,"endTime":1640.37,"body":"overlooked is kind of gender"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1640.37,"endTime":1643.88,"body":"differences. So, men are also"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1640.37,"endTime":1643.88,"body":"more free and have had more"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1643.88,"endTime":1647.66,"body":"money historically, and even"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1643.88,"endTime":1647.66,"body":"contemporaneously, to be in and"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1647.66,"endTime":1650.93,"body":"out of relationships, and we can"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1647.66,"endTime":1650.93,"body":"see that in the way we talked"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1650.93,"endTime":1655.25,"body":"about young women's sexuality."},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1650.93,"endTime":1655.25,"body":"Of course, reflecting back on"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1655.25,"endTime":1658.31,"body":"Bev Skeggs' work again, how she"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1655.25,"endTime":1658.31,"body":"wrote about working-class women"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1658.55,"endTime":1661.4,"body":"and about how they're kind of"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1658.55,"endTime":1661.4,"body":"surveillanced more, and about"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1661.4,"endTime":1664.88,"body":"how they are more restricted in"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1661.4,"endTime":1664.88,"body":"the kinds of relationships that"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1664.88,"endTime":1665.69,"body":"they can have."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1665.84,"endTime":1668.69,"body":"Thanks so much,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1665.84,"endTime":1668.69,"body":"Katherine. We'll be back soon to"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1668.69,"endTime":1672.32,"body":"talk about connection and"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1668.69,"endTime":1672.32,"body":"intimacy in our supposedly"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1672.32,"endTime":1676.7,"body":"increasingly contactless world,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1672.32,"endTime":1676.7,"body":"but first, a word from Alice,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1676.7,"endTime":1677.45,"body":"our producer."},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1680.09,"endTime":1681.77,"body":"You're listening to"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1680.09,"endTime":1681.77,"body":"Uncommon Sense from the"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1681.77,"endTime":1684.98,"body":"Sociological Review, where every"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1681.77,"endTime":1684.98,"body":"month we sit down to talk with"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1684.98,"endTime":1688.31,"body":"an expert guest to grab hold of"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1684.98,"endTime":1688.31,"body":"a concept we all think we know,"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1688.64,"endTime":1691.85,"body":"everyday notions like home or"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1688.64,"endTime":1691.85,"body":"school or today's topic,"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1691.91,"endTime":1695.39,"body":"intimacy and love. And together,"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1691.91,"endTime":1695.39,"body":"we work to see it a little bit"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1695.39,"endTime":1698.51,"body":"differently. It's not an"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1695.39,"endTime":1698.51,"body":"academic exercise, it's about"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1698.51,"endTime":1701.96,"body":"seeing the social world anew,"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1698.51,"endTime":1701.96,"body":"all underpinned by the view that"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1701.96,"endTime":1704.87,"body":"change really is possible, and"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1701.96,"endTime":1704.87,"body":"that you don't have to be a"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1704.87,"endTime":1708.35,"body":"sociologist to think like one."},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1704.87,"endTime":1708.35,"body":"If you head to the podcast page"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1708.38,"endTime":1711.74,"body":"at thesociologicalreview.org"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1708.38,"endTime":1711.74,"body":"you'll find details on our"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1711.74,"endTime":1714.62,"body":"guests, plus recommended"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1711.74,"endTime":1714.62,"body":"reading. And if you've not done"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1714.62,"endTime":1717.98,"body":"so already, please do just take"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1714.62,"endTime":1717.98,"body":"a few seconds to tap \"Follow\" or"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1717.98,"endTime":1721.49,"body":"\"Subscribe\" in the app you're"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1717.98,"endTime":1721.49,"body":"using to enjoy this. It helps us"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1721.49,"endTime":1724.37,"body":"to keep making this podcast for"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1721.49,"endTime":1724.37,"body":"everyone. Thanks for listening."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1731.96,"endTime":1734.63,"body":"This is episode"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1731.96,"endTime":1734.63,"body":"four of Uncommon Sense, which"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1734.63,"endTime":1738.32,"body":"means by now you know what's"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1734.63,"endTime":1738.32,"body":"coming. This is where we often"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1738.32,"endTime":1742.64,"body":"pause to grab a buzzword, a"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1738.32,"endTime":1742.64,"body":"trope, maybe a quote, and put it"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1742.67,"endTime":1745.94,"body":"under scrutiny. Ask what it"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1742.67,"endTime":1745.94,"body":"really means, what it says about"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1745.97,"endTime":1749.63,"body":"us and whether we can think"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1745.97,"endTime":1749.63,"body":"about it a bit differently. That"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1749.63,"endTime":1750.83,"body":"sounds good Alexis?"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1751.07,"endTime":1754.07,"body":"Yes. And"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1751.07,"endTime":1754.07,"body":"Katherine, today we thought we'd"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1754.1,"endTime":1757.97,"body":"talk to you about a word whose"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1754.1,"endTime":1757.97,"body":"rise has, like so many things,"},{"speaker":"been accelerated by COVID-19","startTime":1758.06,"endTime":1763.55,"body":"contactless. It's a term that"},{"speaker":"been accelerated by COVID-19","startTime":1763.55,"endTime":1767.66,"body":"becomes commonplace thanks to"},{"speaker":"been accelerated by COVID-19","startTime":1763.55,"endTime":1767.66,"body":"contactless payment cards. But"},{"speaker":"been accelerated by COVID-19","startTime":1767.66,"endTime":1770.9,"body":"what kind of conversation does"},{"speaker":"been accelerated by COVID-19","startTime":1767.66,"endTime":1770.9,"body":"that word – contactless –"},{"speaker":"been accelerated by COVID-19","startTime":1770.99,"endTime":1774.83,"body":"prompt, if we start to think"},{"speaker":"been accelerated by COVID-19","startTime":1770.99,"endTime":1774.83,"body":"about it through a sociological"},{"speaker":"been accelerated by COVID-19","startTime":1774.83,"endTime":1775.25,"body":"lens?"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1775.28,"endTime":1779.75,"body":"I think, for"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1775.28,"endTime":1779.75,"body":"me, that conjures up stories of"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1779.78,"endTime":1783.86,"body":"the increasingly digitised world"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1779.78,"endTime":1783.86,"body":"that we live in – of course,"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1783.86,"endTime":1787.01,"body":"accelerated, as you say, by"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1783.86,"endTime":1787.01,"body":"COVID – about how we are in"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1787.01,"endTime":1790.67,"body":"touch with other people via"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1787.01,"endTime":1790.67,"body":"mediation. So, mediated through"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1790.67,"endTime":1794.27,"body":"technology – that we stay in our"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1790.67,"endTime":1794.27,"body":"homes more, that we order online"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1794.27,"endTime":1798.17,"body":"more – and, I think, there's"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1794.27,"endTime":1798.17,"body":"often an assumption that this"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1798.17,"endTime":1801.32,"body":"leads to a kind of a colder"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1798.17,"endTime":1801.32,"body":"society, that were less in"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1801.32,"endTime":1804.5,"body":"connection with one another."},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1801.32,"endTime":1804.5,"body":"And, I think, that's quite"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1804.5,"endTime":1808.13,"body":"challenged by the different"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1804.5,"endTime":1808.13,"body":"literatures. So, you can have"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1808.16,"endTime":1812.81,"body":"intimacy and closeness through"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1808.16,"endTime":1812.81,"body":"digital means. And although,"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1813.23,"endTime":1815.48,"body":"recently we've been talking"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1813.23,"endTime":1815.48,"body":"about that in terms of COVID, we"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1815.48,"endTime":1818.6,"body":"have also seen that migrants"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1815.48,"endTime":1818.6,"body":"have been in touch with one"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1818.6,"endTime":1822.29,"body":"another and building intimacy,"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1818.6,"endTime":1822.29,"body":"across transnational borders"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1822.32,"endTime":1826.67,"body":"through the digital realm. So, I"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1822.32,"endTime":1826.67,"body":"wouldn't be so negative. I think"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1826.67,"endTime":1829.85,"body":"a lot of the discourse is very"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1826.67,"endTime":1829.85,"body":"negative about it. And I think"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1829.85,"endTime":1833.15,"body":"there are pros and cons around"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1829.85,"endTime":1833.15,"body":"the increasingly contactless"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1833.15,"endTime":1833.57,"body":"world."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1834.62,"endTime":1836.0,"body":"I'm really"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1834.62,"endTime":1836.0,"body":"interested to hear you talk"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1836.0,"endTime":1840.14,"body":"about sort of pros, because I"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1836.0,"endTime":1840.14,"body":"definitely went straight to the"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1840.14,"endTime":1844.58,"body":"cons. When I heard this was our"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1840.14,"endTime":1844.58,"body":"buzzword, right? Like, I think"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1844.58,"endTime":1847.85,"body":"about how something that's"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1844.58,"endTime":1847.85,"body":"contactless is somehow less"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1847.85,"endTime":1852.92,"body":"real, or intangible and sort of"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1847.85,"endTime":1852.92,"body":"hides the ways in which ... I"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1852.92,"endTime":1855.47,"body":"mean, I'm thinking about this in"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1852.92,"endTime":1855.47,"body":"an economic sense, right? You"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1855.47,"endTime":1860.15,"body":"know, you buy something in a"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1855.47,"endTime":1860.15,"body":"contactless way, and it obscures"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1860.33,"endTime":1865.13,"body":"any kind of moral aspect to the"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1860.33,"endTime":1865.13,"body":"system. There's this guy, Nick"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1865.13,"endTime":1869.78,"body":"Crossley – guy ... he's a"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1865.13,"endTime":1869.78,"body":"sociologist [laughs], he's also"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1869.78,"endTime":1874.04,"body":"a guy – who works in social"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1869.78,"endTime":1874.04,"body":"movement theory. He he writes"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1874.04,"endTime":1876.71,"body":"about anti-globalisation"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1874.04,"endTime":1876.71,"body":"activists and talks about them"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1876.71,"endTime":1881.87,"body":"trying to re-moralise the"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1876.71,"endTime":1881.87,"body":"transactions that we make or our"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1881.87,"endTime":1885.47,"body":"economic system in a way,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1881.87,"endTime":1885.47,"body":"because, the way capitalism sets"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1885.47,"endTime":1889.16,"body":"it all up is that we are"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1885.47,"endTime":1889.16,"body":"alienated from people. And"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1889.16,"endTime":1891.83,"body":"actually, when you buy something"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1889.16,"endTime":1891.83,"body":"you are in relationship with the"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1891.83,"endTime":1895.79,"body":"people who make the things and"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1891.83,"endTime":1895.79,"body":"are involved at various steps"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1895.79,"endTime":1898.61,"body":"along the journey of that"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1895.79,"endTime":1898.61,"body":"product ending up on your"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1898.61,"endTime":1901.97,"body":"doorstep. But that's hidden from"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1898.61,"endTime":1901.97,"body":"us. So, we like to think that"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1901.97,"endTime":1905.09,"body":"because we don't have this"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1901.97,"endTime":1905.09,"body":"contact with them. And the more"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1905.09,"endTime":1908.15,"body":"frictionless these transactions"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1905.09,"endTime":1908.15,"body":"are, the more we feel like we're"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1908.15,"endTime":1910.85,"body":"escaping that moral"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1908.15,"endTime":1910.85,"body":"relationship. I'm totally"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1910.85,"endTime":1913.22,"body":"rambling, but, you know, like,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1910.85,"endTime":1913.22,"body":"at the beginning of the"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1913.22,"endTime":1916.55,"body":"pandemic, there was this"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1913.22,"endTime":1916.55,"body":"grassroots group that I was"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1916.55,"endTime":1919.97,"body":"doing research with that were"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1916.55,"endTime":1919.97,"body":"talking about the need not to"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1919.97,"endTime":1924.14,"body":"conflate social distancing with"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1919.97,"endTime":1924.14,"body":"physical distancing; that"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1924.17,"endTime":1927.83,"body":"actually what we need is"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1924.17,"endTime":1927.83,"body":"physical distancing. And I'm"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1927.83,"endTime":1930.86,"body":"curious, Katherine, whether you"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1927.83,"endTime":1930.86,"body":"think maybe that when we, when"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1930.86,"endTime":1934.4,"body":"we do have an excessive amount"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1930.86,"endTime":1934.4,"body":"of physical distancing that"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1934.7,"endTime":1938.06,"body":"sometimes maybe, you know, this"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1934.7,"endTime":1938.06,"body":"kind of contactless thing"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1938.36,"endTime":1941.42,"body":"obscures the relationships that"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1938.36,"endTime":1941.42,"body":"we're in with people?"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1941.87,"endTime":1944.93,"body":"So, I think"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1941.87,"endTime":1944.93,"body":"that's definitely a danger and a"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1944.93,"endTime":1949.31,"body":"possibility. I would just"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":1944.93,"endTime":1949.31,"body":"caution against a kind of a"},{"speaker":"blanket","startTime":1949.4,"endTime":1952.58,"body":"\"that's what's going to"},{"speaker":"blanket","startTime":1949.4,"endTime":1952.58,"body":"happen\" and that's what"},{"speaker":"blanket","startTime":1952.58,"endTime":1955.79,"body":"\"necessarily\" happens. So, work"},{"speaker":"blanket","startTime":1952.58,"endTime":1955.79,"body":"by Jessica Ringrose, which is"},{"speaker":"blanket","startTime":1955.79,"endTime":1959.87,"body":"also in social activism around"},{"speaker":"blanket","startTime":1955.79,"endTime":1959.87,"body":"kind of the #MeToo movement and"},{"speaker":"blanket","startTime":1959.87,"endTime":1964.4,"body":"young women's feminism shows"},{"speaker":"blanket","startTime":1959.87,"endTime":1964.4,"body":"that the digital can help"},{"speaker":"blanket","startTime":1964.4,"endTime":1967.25,"body":"connect people. And we can see"},{"speaker":"blanket","startTime":1964.4,"endTime":1967.25,"body":"that with Greta Thunberg as"},{"speaker":"blanket","startTime":1967.25,"endTime":1970.46,"body":"well, across a global level, and"},{"speaker":"blanket","startTime":1967.25,"endTime":1970.46,"body":"I think there's a real ... I"},{"speaker":"blanket","startTime":1970.46,"endTime":1972.92,"body":"feel almost an intimate"},{"speaker":"blanket","startTime":1970.46,"endTime":1972.92,"body":"connection with Greta Thunberg,"},{"speaker":"blanket","startTime":1972.92,"endTime":1976.13,"body":"I follow her on Twitter and I"},{"speaker":"blanket","startTime":1972.92,"endTime":1976.13,"body":"think she's really connected"},{"speaker":"blanket","startTime":1976.19,"endTime":1980.63,"body":"young people around the world to"},{"speaker":"blanket","startTime":1976.19,"endTime":1980.63,"body":"address a global problem. And, I"},{"speaker":"blanket","startTime":1980.63,"endTime":1983.96,"body":"think, she manages to create an"},{"speaker":"blanket","startTime":1980.63,"endTime":1983.96,"body":"intimacy between her and her"},{"speaker":"blanket","startTime":1983.96,"endTime":1986.48,"body":"followers and the people that"},{"speaker":"blanket","startTime":1983.96,"endTime":1986.48,"body":"she works with in the various"},{"speaker":"blanket","startTime":1986.48,"endTime":1989.63,"body":"different contexts and"},{"speaker":"blanket","startTime":1986.48,"endTime":1989.63,"body":"countries, which is so important"},{"speaker":"blanket","startTime":1989.63,"endTime":1994.85,"body":"to push an activate people to"},{"speaker":"blanket","startTime":1989.63,"endTime":1994.85,"body":"react and do something about the"},{"speaker":"blanket","startTime":1994.85,"endTime":1995.81,"body":"climate crisis."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1996.08,"endTime":1998.66,"body":"Going back"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1996.08,"endTime":1998.66,"body":"to COVID for a moment, and maybe"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1998.66,"endTime":2004.9,"body":"bouncing back on something that"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1998.66,"endTime":2004.9,"body":"Rosie alluded to, COVID-19 has"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2004.93,"endTime":2008.17,"body":"been a time where touch and"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2004.93,"endTime":2008.17,"body":"physical contact was put on"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2008.17,"endTime":2013.09,"body":"hold, and it's had a deep"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2008.17,"endTime":2013.09,"body":"impact, maybe, on our lives,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2013.09,"endTime":2016.12,"body":"right? You've done research on"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2013.09,"endTime":2016.12,"body":"people's experiences through the"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2016.12,"endTime":2020.35,"body":"pandemic, do your findings"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2016.12,"endTime":2020.35,"body":"incline you to think that we, at"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2020.35,"endTime":2025.96,"body":"our core, are beings who need"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2020.35,"endTime":2025.96,"body":"contact, or is the future like"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2025.96,"endTime":2028.36,"body":"... if we imagine the future"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2025.96,"endTime":2028.36,"body":"again, right is the future"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2028.36,"endTime":2029.29,"body":"contactless?"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2029.35,"endTime":2030.79,"body":"I mean, by"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2029.35,"endTime":2030.79,"body":"contact, I think you're"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2030.79,"endTime":2034.78,"body":"referring to physical contact."},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2030.79,"endTime":2034.78,"body":"Would that be right? Certainly,"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2034.81,"endTime":2038.32,"body":"that did come out in my"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2034.81,"endTime":2038.32,"body":"research. It was a longitudinal"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2038.32,"endTime":2042.7,"body":"study. We followed families with"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2038.32,"endTime":2042.7,"body":"children from April 2020 – so,"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2042.79,"endTime":2046.6,"body":"less than a month after the UK"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2042.79,"endTime":2046.6,"body":"lockdown; it was a 10-country"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2046.6,"endTime":2049.27,"body":"study, but I'll talk"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2046.6,"endTime":2049.27,"body":"specifically about the UK – and"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2049.27,"endTime":2052.27,"body":"we followed them for 13 months"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2049.27,"endTime":2052.27,"body":"up until the following summer in"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2052.27,"endTime":2056.5,"body":"June 2021. And initially, there"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2052.27,"endTime":2056.5,"body":"was a certain novelty and sort"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2056.5,"endTime":2060.31,"body":"of a gratefulness to have online"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2056.5,"endTime":2060.31,"body":"forms of communication and being"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2060.31,"endTime":2064.12,"body":"in touch with one another. But"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2060.31,"endTime":2064.12,"body":"definitely, throughout the whole"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2064.12,"endTime":2067.84,"body":"year, it was considered second"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2064.12,"endTime":2067.84,"body":"rate. And as time went on, in"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2067.84,"endTime":2069.91,"body":"particularly ... in particular"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2067.84,"endTime":2069.91,"body":"for young people, which was"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2069.91,"endTime":2072.04,"body":"really interesting finding for"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2069.91,"endTime":2072.04,"body":"us, because young people are"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2072.04,"endTime":2075.43,"body":"often presented as at the"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2072.04,"endTime":2075.43,"body":"forefront of the digital era"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2075.46,"endTime":2078.49,"body":"and, you know, they know so much"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2075.46,"endTime":2078.49,"body":"and they're brought up with"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2078.49,"endTime":2081.37,"body":"WhatsApp and Skype and those"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2078.49,"endTime":2081.37,"body":"kinds of things. But actually,"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2081.37,"endTime":2083.68,"body":"the young people were saying to"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2081.37,"endTime":2083.68,"body":"us that they did really miss"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2083.92,"endTime":2087.73,"body":"person to person connection. And"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2083.92,"endTime":2087.73,"body":"in particular, the spontaneity"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2087.73,"endTime":2090.1,"body":"of person to person connection,"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2087.73,"endTime":2090.1,"body":"which I think we can all"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2090.13,"endTime":2095.08,"body":"understand through Zoom meetings"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2090.13,"endTime":2095.08,"body":"and whatnot. Spontaneity is not"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2095.08,"endTime":2099.25,"body":"something that is as easy and,"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2095.08,"endTime":2099.25,"body":"you know, spontaneous meeting"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2099.25,"endTime":2101.41,"body":"into one another, what often"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2099.25,"endTime":2101.41,"body":"people call the \"watercooler"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2101.41,"endTime":2104.29,"body":"moment\", is not promoted through"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2101.41,"endTime":2104.29,"body":"the digital."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2104.44,"endTime":2106.6,"body":"So, what I'm"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2104.44,"endTime":2106.6,"body":"hearing is that we're not all"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2106.6,"endTime":2110.8,"body":"set for the metaverse just yet."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2106.6,"endTime":2110.8,"body":"Then, we're not going to"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2110.8,"endTime":2114.37,"body":"disappear into purely virtual"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2110.8,"endTime":2114.37,"body":"reality, right away."},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2114.88,"endTime":2115.96,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2114.88,"endTime":2115.96,"body":"absolutely."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2115.99,"endTime":2121.96,"body":"Yeah. Thank god."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2115.99,"endTime":2121.96,"body":"Okay, so before we wrap up, this"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2121.96,"endTime":2124.45,"body":"is where we each throw in our"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2121.96,"endTime":2124.45,"body":"tip for something that's not"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2124.45,"endTime":2127.63,"body":"academic, but there has to be"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2124.45,"endTime":2127.63,"body":"something surprising to say"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2127.63,"endTime":2131.05,"body":"about love and intimacy,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2127.63,"endTime":2131.05,"body":"potentially something from pop"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2131.05,"endTime":2131.83,"body":"culture."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2132.28,"endTime":2134.62,"body":"Katherine,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2132.28,"endTime":2134.62,"body":"there's no shortage of stuff to"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2134.62,"endTime":2137.98,"body":"choose from, whether it's Sally"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2134.62,"endTime":2137.98,"body":"Rooney's \"Normal People\" or"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2137.98,"endTime":2141.67,"body":"James Baldwin's \"Giovanni's"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2137.98,"endTime":2141.67,"body":"Room\" ... perhaps the entire"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2141.67,"endTime":2145.18,"body":"Motown catalogue or the madly"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2141.67,"endTime":2145.18,"body":"influential films of Richard"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2145.18,"endTime":2149.5,"body":"Curtis \"Love Actually\", \"Bridget"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2145.18,"endTime":2149.5,"body":"Jones\", etc. What will you pick?"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2149.8,"endTime":2153.13,"body":"Well, a book"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2149.8,"endTime":2153.13,"body":"I read recently was Ian McEwan's"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2153.16,"endTime":2157.36,"body":"\"Machines Like Me\". The main"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2153.16,"endTime":2157.36,"body":"character in the book, he buys a"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2157.39,"endTime":2160.33,"body":"robot that looks like a human"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2157.39,"endTime":2160.33,"body":"being – it's kind of set in this"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2160.33,"endTime":2165.28,"body":"kind of parallel, slight time in"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2160.33,"endTime":2165.28,"body":"the future – and that brings up"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2165.28,"endTime":2169.42,"body":"so many questions, I think,"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2165.28,"endTime":2169.42,"body":"around \"love with things\","},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2169.45,"endTime":2171.61,"body":"inverted commas. So, we often"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2169.45,"endTime":2171.61,"body":"talk about our love"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2171.61,"endTime":2175.78,"body":"relationships with other people,"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2171.61,"endTime":2175.78,"body":"but actually, we can also love"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2175.81,"endTime":2177.91,"body":"things. So, for example, there's"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2175.81,"endTime":2177.91,"body":"a whole sociology around the"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2177.91,"endTime":2182.68,"body":"love of teddy bears, and how"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2177.91,"endTime":2182.68,"body":"love can be perhaps unrequited"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2182.68,"endTime":2186.4,"body":"as well. But it also brings up"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2182.68,"endTime":2186.4,"body":"huge issues around consent and"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2186.4,"endTime":2188.74,"body":"intimacy and subjectivity."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2189.07,"endTime":2190.48,"body":"I feel like"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2189.07,"endTime":2190.48,"body":"these kinds of reflections"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2190.48,"endTime":2196.45,"body":"around intimacy with objects or"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2190.48,"endTime":2196.45,"body":"robots can be, can be works that"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2196.45,"endTime":2199.03,"body":"are quite unnerving sometimes."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2196.45,"endTime":2199.03,"body":"So, I'd like to share something"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2199.03,"endTime":2203.38,"body":"along the same lines. And that's"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2199.03,"endTime":2203.38,"body":"the work of Haruhiko Kawaguchi,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2203.38,"endTime":2206.56,"body":"who goes by the name"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2203.38,"endTime":2206.56,"body":"Photographer Hal, whose work I"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2206.56,"endTime":2209.92,"body":"got to know during the fieldwork"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2206.56,"endTime":2209.92,"body":"... my fieldwork in Tokyo. What"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2209.92,"endTime":2213.73,"body":"he does is take pictures of"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2209.92,"endTime":2213.73,"body":"strangers, families all shrink"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2213.73,"endTime":2217.21,"body":"wrapped, it's like literally"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2213.73,"endTime":2217.21,"body":"wrapped up in clear plastic"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2217.21,"endTime":2219.64,"body":"sometimes, like their whole"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2217.21,"endTime":2219.64,"body":"houses are wrapped up in"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2219.64,"endTime":2224.11,"body":"plastic. And looking at his work"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2219.64,"endTime":2224.11,"body":"for the first time can be,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2224.29,"endTime":2227.68,"body":"again, quite unnerving. But I"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2224.29,"endTime":2227.68,"body":"think it opens a lot of"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2227.68,"endTime":2231.52,"body":"interesting questions about"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2227.68,"endTime":2231.52,"body":"intimacy, physical contact, but"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2231.52,"endTime":2235.99,"body":"also love, proximity, and even"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2231.52,"endTime":2235.99,"body":"maybe, like, our own mortality"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2236.08,"endTime":2238.96,"body":"with a particular relevance in"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2236.08,"endTime":2238.96,"body":"the context of Japanese social"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2238.96,"endTime":2243.94,"body":"norms and values. Rosie, I feel"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2238.96,"endTime":2243.94,"body":"I've gotten pretty sideways"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2243.94,"endTime":2246.61,"body":"here, depending on our"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2243.94,"endTime":2246.61,"body":"definitions of popular culture."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2247.0,"endTime":2249.4,"body":"But I think you wanted to"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2247.0,"endTime":2249.4,"body":"mention an artist who also"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2249.4,"endTime":2251.83,"body":"speaks to the theme of intimacy."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2252.1,"endTime":2255.34,"body":"Yeah, also, maybe"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2252.1,"endTime":2255.34,"body":"not, you know, a straight up pop"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2255.34,"endTime":2260.83,"body":"culture reference. But Sophie"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2255.34,"endTime":2260.83,"body":"Calle is a conceptual artist"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2260.83,"endTime":2267.37,"body":"whose work I really love. And"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2260.83,"endTime":2267.37,"body":"she does these great projects"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2267.37,"endTime":2271.45,"body":"where, for example, she spends a"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2267.37,"endTime":2271.45,"body":"year working in a hotel and goes"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2271.45,"endTime":2274.51,"body":"through the personal items"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2271.45,"endTime":2274.51,"body":"belonging to guests and"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2274.51,"endTime":2279.4,"body":"photographs them, or picks a"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2274.51,"endTime":2279.4,"body":"stranger and follows him around"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2279.76,"endTime":2283.96,"body":"a city for weeks on and"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2279.76,"endTime":2283.96,"body":"photographing him. In a previous"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2284.29,"endTime":2288.85,"body":"life, I went to art school – I"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2284.29,"endTime":2288.85,"body":"am in fact an art school drop"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2288.85,"endTime":2292.6,"body":"out – and Sophie Cal really"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2288.85,"endTime":2292.6,"body":"inspired some of my art. I, in"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2292.6,"endTime":2297.97,"body":"fact, made a major work, where I"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2292.6,"endTime":2297.97,"body":"brought my own bed into an art"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2297.97,"endTime":2301.75,"body":"gallery, as in the student art"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2297.97,"endTime":2301.75,"body":"gallery, and the only way you"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2301.75,"endTime":2306.19,"body":"could view the video work which"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2301.75,"endTime":2306.19,"body":"I had made – and this video work"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2306.19,"endTime":2310.75,"body":"was of me, sleeping in other"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2306.19,"endTime":2310.75,"body":"people's beds – was for people"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2310.75,"endTime":2314.89,"body":"to get into my bed and lie in my"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2310.75,"endTime":2314.89,"body":"bed underneath a screen that was"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2314.89,"endTime":2317.17,"body":"really uncomfortably close to"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2314.89,"endTime":2317.17,"body":"the pillow. So, I was like"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2317.17,"endTime":2320.68,"body":"forcing this intimacy on people."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2317.17,"endTime":2320.68,"body":"And, I think, what's interesting"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2320.68,"endTime":2324.7,"body":"about Sophie Calle's work and"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2320.68,"endTime":2324.7,"body":"which, you know, in my very"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2324.73,"endTime":2327.16,"body":"ham-fisted way I tried to do as,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2324.73,"endTime":2327.16,"body":"like, a second year"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2327.16,"endTime":2331.51,"body":"undergraduate student in art"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2327.16,"endTime":2331.51,"body":"school, is thinking about the"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2331.54,"endTime":2335.2,"body":"the norms that we have around"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2331.54,"endTime":2335.2,"body":"intimacy and what we allow"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2335.23,"endTime":2339.49,"body":"people, who we consider to be"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2335.23,"endTime":2339.49,"body":"ourselves intimate with, access"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2339.49,"endTime":2345.52,"body":"to in our life. And how, when"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2339.49,"endTime":2345.52,"body":"you allow that with strangers –"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2345.58,"endTime":2347.74,"body":"allow that level of intimacy"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2345.58,"endTime":2347.74,"body":"with strangers – it can be very"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2347.74,"endTime":2348.49,"body":"uncomfortable."},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2348.73,"endTime":2351.79,"body":"The Sophie"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2348.73,"endTime":2351.79,"body":"Calle example brings up whole"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2351.79,"endTime":2354.64,"body":"issues around methods for me,"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2351.79,"endTime":2354.64,"body":"like, how do we get it,"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2354.64,"endTime":2359.23,"body":"intimacy? How do we get people"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2354.64,"endTime":2359.23,"body":"to talk? Or how do we view it,"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2359.23,"endTime":2362.05,"body":"something so personal? How do we"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2359.23,"endTime":2362.05,"body":"get them to talk about it"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2362.05,"endTime":2365.32,"body":"without just staying on the"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2362.05,"endTime":2365.32,"body":"level of the scripts that I"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2365.32,"endTime":2368.32,"body":"talked about earlier? How do we"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2365.32,"endTime":2368.32,"body":"observe and get into their"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2368.32,"endTime":2372.31,"body":"homes? And what intimacy do we"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2368.32,"endTime":2372.31,"body":"create between ourselves and our"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2372.31,"endTime":2375.22,"body":"participants? And what"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2372.31,"endTime":2375.22,"body":"intimacies do we disrupt by"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2375.25,"endTime":2379.03,"body":"placing ourselves in those"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2375.25,"endTime":2379.03,"body":"positions with them? And what"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2379.03,"endTime":2380.44,"body":"are we trying to achieve?"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2380.56,"endTime":2382.99,"body":"I mean, like,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2380.56,"endTime":2382.99,"body":"Sophie Calle was taken to court"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2383.02,"endTime":2386.68,"body":"by someone that she followed"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2383.02,"endTime":2386.68,"body":"around. I mean, you know,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2386.71,"endTime":2389.23,"body":"conceptual artists can get away"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2386.71,"endTime":2389.23,"body":"with things that a professional"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2389.23,"endTime":2392.44,"body":"sociologist maybe can't. But"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2389.23,"endTime":2392.44,"body":"then, also, she didn't get away"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2392.44,"endTime":2393.58,"body":"with some of it as well."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2394.0,"endTime":2396.19,"body":"Well, it"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2394.0,"endTime":2396.19,"body":"sounds like I'll definitely have"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2396.19,"endTime":2399.55,"body":"to look up the work of Sophie"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2396.19,"endTime":2399.55,"body":"Calle. We'll make sure to put"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2399.55,"endTime":2402.88,"body":"the details about her work and"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2399.55,"endTime":2402.88,"body":"those other recommendations,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2402.88,"endTime":2406.69,"body":"too, in the episode notes for"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2402.88,"endTime":2406.69,"body":"this show. And Katherine, this"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2406.69,"endTime":2411.34,"body":"is also where we say goodbye."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2406.69,"endTime":2411.34,"body":"So, thank you for joining us"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2411.34,"endTime":2414.31,"body":"today. It's been a great"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2411.34,"endTime":2414.31,"body":"conversation, and really"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2414.31,"endTime":2417.49,"body":"expanded my thinking on what"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2414.31,"endTime":2417.49,"body":"intimacy means today."},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2417.67,"endTime":2419.29,"body":"Likewise,"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2417.67,"endTime":2419.29,"body":"thank you very much for having"},{"speaker":"Katherine Twamley","startTime":2419.29,"endTime":2419.56,"body":"me."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2419.59,"endTime":2421.54,"body":"Thanks,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2419.59,"endTime":2421.54,"body":"Katherine. Bye."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2426.04,"endTime":2428.77,"body":"And that's"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2426.04,"endTime":2428.77,"body":"it from us, for now. You can"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2428.77,"endTime":2431.95,"body":"catch the reading list from"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2428.77,"endTime":2431.95,"body":"today's show, including our pick"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2432.04,"endTime":2435.07,"body":"of pieces from The Sociological"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2432.04,"endTime":2435.07,"body":"Review by heading to our"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2435.07,"endTime":2439.33,"body":"podcasts page at"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2435.07,"endTime":2439.33,"body":"thesociologicalreview.org. Or"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2439.42,"endTime":2442.69,"body":"just take a look at our episode"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2439.42,"endTime":2442.69,"body":"notes in the app you're using to"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2442.69,"endTime":2443.5,"body":"hear this."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2448.81,"endTime":2452.77,"body":"Rosie, I really enjoyed talking"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2448.81,"endTime":2452.77,"body":"to Katherine. And actually, it"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2452.77,"endTime":2457.75,"body":"made me really want to revisit"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2452.77,"endTime":2457.75,"body":"some of the data that I had from"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2457.75,"endTime":2461.35,"body":"my fieldwork in Japan. What are"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2457.75,"endTime":2461.35,"body":"you going to take away from this"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2461.35,"endTime":2461.98,"body":"discussion?"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2462.43,"endTime":2465.76,"body":"I mean, I really"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2462.43,"endTime":2465.76,"body":"enjoyed when Katherine was"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2465.76,"endTime":2471.28,"body":"talking about how love can be"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2465.76,"endTime":2471.28,"body":"used to justify sort of selfish"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2471.28,"endTime":2475.24,"body":"actions. I don't know, like, I"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2471.28,"endTime":2475.24,"body":"just found that really"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2475.24,"endTime":2475.93,"body":"interesting."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2475.99,"endTime":2478.27,"body":"Yeah, I"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2475.99,"endTime":2478.27,"body":"agree. And one really important"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2478.27,"endTime":2481.54,"body":"thing we also touched on was the"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2478.27,"endTime":2481.54,"body":"idea of our \"contactless world\""},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2481.54,"endTime":2485.62,"body":"being a bit of a myth. That"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2481.54,"endTime":2485.62,"body":"actually speaks a bit to the"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2485.62,"endTime":2488.41,"body":"theme that we'll be exploring"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2485.62,"endTime":2488.41,"body":"next month, security."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2491.5,"endTime":2494.59,"body":"If you've enjoyed"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2491.5,"endTime":2494.59,"body":"listening to Uncommon Sense, do"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2494.59,"endTime":2498.1,"body":"tap \"Subscribe\" and \"Follow\" and"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2494.59,"endTime":2498.1,"body":"review us in whatever app you're"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2498.1,"endTime":2500.98,"body":"using. And share us with your"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2498.1,"endTime":2500.98,"body":"friends and family, which is"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2501.01,"endTime":2502.81,"body":"surely an act of love."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2503.05,"endTime":2504.88,"body":"Our"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2503.05,"endTime":2504.88,"body":"executive producer was Alice"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2504.88,"endTime":2508.24,"body":"Bloch and our sound engineer was"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2504.88,"endTime":2508.24,"body":"Dave Crackles. Thanks for"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2508.24,"endTime":2509.56,"body":"listening. Bye."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2509.89,"endTime":2510.52,"body":"Bye!"}]}