{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":4.32,"endTime":7.17,"body":"Hi, welcome"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":4.32,"endTime":7.17,"body":"back to Uncommon Sense from The"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":7.17,"endTime":11.01,"body":"Sociological Review, I'm Alexis"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":7.17,"endTime":11.01,"body":"Hieu Truong in Quebec, Canada."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":11.37,"endTime":14.16,"body":"And I'm Rosie"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":11.37,"endTime":14.16,"body":"Hancock in Sydney, Australia."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":14.76,"endTime":18.57,"body":"This podcast is about showing"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":14.76,"endTime":18.57,"body":"that sociology doesn't belong to"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":18.57,"endTime":22.02,"body":"universities or professional"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":18.57,"endTime":22.02,"body":"academics, it belongs to all of"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":22.02,"endTime":25.14,"body":"us. Each month, we take"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":22.02,"endTime":25.14,"body":"something we might assume we're"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":25.14,"endTime":28.38,"body":"pretty familiar with. And we sit"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":25.14,"endTime":28.38,"body":"with it for a while to try and"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":28.38,"endTime":31.86,"body":"have a look at it sideways."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":28.38,"endTime":31.86,"body":"Because, actually, talking"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":31.86,"endTime":34.53,"body":"differently about the world can"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":31.86,"endTime":34.53,"body":"be a route to changing it."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":34.62,"endTime":37.71,"body":"Now, today,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":34.62,"endTime":37.71,"body":"we're looking at something you"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":37.71,"endTime":41.19,"body":"might think sociologists have a"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":37.71,"endTime":41.19,"body":"little to do with: security."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":41.94,"endTime":45.3,"body":"Think of that word, and perhaps"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":41.94,"endTime":45.3,"body":"you jumped to images of passport"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":45.3,"endTime":49.89,"body":"control, border control, perhaps"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":45.3,"endTime":49.89,"body":"terrorism, politicians going on"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":49.89,"endTime":53.4,"body":"about national security, and"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":49.89,"endTime":53.4,"body":"indeed, the restrictions on"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":53.4,"endTime":58.44,"body":"civil liberties after 9/11 and"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":53.4,"endTime":58.44,"body":"the rise of Islamophobia. So, I"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":58.44,"endTime":61.17,"body":"guess, like what we're thinking"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":58.44,"endTime":61.17,"body":"about here is really, like,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":61.17,"endTime":65.58,"body":"these ideas of control, fear,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":61.17,"endTime":65.58,"body":"borders, walls, and othering."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":66.03,"endTime":68.49,"body":"You can totally"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":66.03,"endTime":68.49,"body":"also go the other way, though,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":68.52,"endTime":71.82,"body":"and think about it at a really"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":68.52,"endTime":71.82,"body":"personal level. So, the idea of"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":71.82,"endTime":74.97,"body":"security is something"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":71.82,"endTime":74.97,"body":"individual. And I'm thinking"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":74.97,"endTime":79.02,"body":"here about even psychological"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":74.97,"endTime":79.02,"body":"insecurity – psychological"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":79.02,"endTime":82.38,"body":"insecurity which I reckon has"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":79.02,"endTime":82.38,"body":"always been pretty gendered;"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":82.62,"endTime":86.19,"body":"shout-out to Kanye West singing"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":82.62,"endTime":86.19,"body":"\"All Falls Down\" about a woman"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":86.19,"endTime":90.27,"body":"being insecure or whatever. I"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":86.19,"endTime":90.27,"body":"mean, it's clear that security"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":90.27,"endTime":94.56,"body":"is just this vast, fascinating,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":90.27,"endTime":94.56,"body":"but also very slippery notion."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":102.63,"endTime":105.51,"body":"I don't know, Alexis, I'd"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":102.63,"endTime":105.51,"body":"suggest that security seems like"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":105.51,"endTime":108.63,"body":"something we often only become"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":105.51,"endTime":108.63,"body":"really aware of when it feels"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":108.63,"endTime":113.16,"body":"threatened. Can I ask when you"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":108.63,"endTime":113.16,"body":"first remember being aware of"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":113.16,"endTime":114.48,"body":"security, personally?"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":114.66,"endTime":116.34,"body":"Hmm ..."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":114.66,"endTime":116.34,"body":"There was this time when I was"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":116.34,"endTime":119.79,"body":"doing my MA in Social Work, and"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":116.34,"endTime":119.79,"body":"I was working in a high school."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":119.82,"endTime":123.36,"body":"And there was an incident with a"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":119.82,"endTime":123.36,"body":"youth that brought a BB gun that"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":123.36,"endTime":126.54,"body":"looked like a gun, and then the"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":123.36,"endTime":126.54,"body":"cops were called, they came in,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":126.57,"endTime":129.6,"body":"they stormed the cafeteria ..."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":126.57,"endTime":129.6,"body":"But, interacting with the"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":129.6,"endTime":134.37,"body":"students afterwards, what was"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":129.6,"endTime":134.37,"body":"most threatening, like, about"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":134.37,"endTime":137.07,"body":"the safety ... that was not the"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":134.37,"endTime":137.07,"body":"idea, necessarily, of the BB gun"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":137.07,"endTime":140.91,"body":"itself. It was really the"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":137.07,"endTime":140.91,"body":"interactions with the police,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":141.06,"endTime":146.13,"body":"where many of the students had"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":141.06,"endTime":146.13,"body":"had prior interactions with"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":146.13,"endTime":150.42,"body":"police that they would define as"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":146.13,"endTime":150.42,"body":"negative or violent, and that"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":150.42,"endTime":153.48,"body":"really had a big impact on them."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":150.42,"endTime":153.48,"body":"What about you, Rosie?"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":153.51,"endTime":155.85,"body":"Yeah, well, I"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":153.51,"endTime":155.85,"body":"guess my example feels pretty"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":155.85,"endTime":160.44,"body":"different, actually. The moment"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":155.85,"endTime":160.44,"body":"when I first felt my security is"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":160.44,"endTime":164.76,"body":"something that was at stake or"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":160.44,"endTime":164.76,"body":"under threat, was back in my"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":164.79,"endTime":168.87,"body":"20s, when a man followed me home"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":164.79,"endTime":168.87,"body":"one night, and he peered really"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":168.87,"endTime":172.77,"body":"creepily over the gate as I was"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":168.87,"endTime":172.77,"body":"going in the front door, and"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":172.77,"endTime":176.79,"body":"completely freaked me out. It"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":172.77,"endTime":176.79,"body":"really shook my sense of"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":176.79,"endTime":180.33,"body":"security in my own home. I mean,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":176.79,"endTime":180.33,"body":"it seems far away from your"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":180.33,"endTime":184.74,"body":"example but, when I think about"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":180.33,"endTime":184.74,"body":"it, both of them do share the"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":184.74,"endTime":189.93,"body":"sense of some kind of certainty"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":184.74,"endTime":189.93,"body":"being shaken. And of security as"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":189.93,"endTime":193.89,"body":"depending on the behaviour, the"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":189.93,"endTime":193.89,"body":"actions, or quite literally, in"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":193.89,"endTime":197.76,"body":"my case, the gaze of others. And"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":193.89,"endTime":197.76,"body":"both examples are very much sort"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":197.76,"endTime":198.93,"body":"of about power, yeah?"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":199.05,"endTime":201.93,"body":"Yeah. Well,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":199.05,"endTime":201.93,"body":"today, we're actually talking to"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":201.93,"endTime":206.46,"body":"someone whose work is all about"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":201.93,"endTime":206.46,"body":"security and indeed, power. And"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":206.46,"endTime":209.85,"body":"who's going to help us think"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":206.46,"endTime":209.85,"body":"about how sociologists might"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":209.85,"endTime":214.92,"body":"think about all of this. She's"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":209.85,"endTime":214.92,"body":"Daria Krivonos, and a researcher"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":214.92,"endTime":217.53,"body":"at the University of Helsinki"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":214.92,"endTime":217.53,"body":"looking at things like"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":217.53,"endTime":221.97,"body":"migration, race, class and"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":217.53,"endTime":221.97,"body":"post-socialism – much of it with"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":221.97,"endTime":226.05,"body":"a focus on Central and Eastern"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":221.97,"endTime":226.05,"body":"Europe, including Ukraine. Hi,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":226.05,"endTime":227.58,"body":"Daria, great to have you with"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":226.05,"endTime":227.58,"body":"us."},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":227.61,"endTime":230.37,"body":"Hi, nice to see"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":227.61,"endTime":230.37,"body":"you. Nice to hear you."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":230.7,"endTime":234.09,"body":"Daria, you just"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":230.7,"endTime":234.09,"body":"heard the wide-ranging examples,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":234.09,"endTime":238.05,"body":"actually, that Alexis and I gave"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":234.09,"endTime":238.05,"body":"about our personal experiences"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":238.05,"endTime":241.65,"body":"with security. Is there a time"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":238.05,"endTime":241.65,"body":"in your life when you remember"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":241.65,"endTime":244.77,"body":"first thinking in terms of"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":241.65,"endTime":244.77,"body":"security that you'd be happy to"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":244.77,"endTime":246.0,"body":"share with us, that is?"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":246.75,"endTime":251.16,"body":"Yeah, of course."},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":246.75,"endTime":251.16,"body":"To me, my sense of security is"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":251.19,"endTime":254.43,"body":"really tied to the question of"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":251.19,"endTime":254.43,"body":"being a migrant, and being a"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":254.43,"endTime":259.23,"body":"migrant in Finland. And until I"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":254.43,"endTime":259.23,"body":"got my Finnish citizenship, so I"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":259.23,"endTime":263.64,"body":"became a naturalised citizen in"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":259.23,"endTime":263.64,"body":"Finland. I think that my sense"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":263.64,"endTime":268.29,"body":"of security really dependent a"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":263.64,"endTime":268.29,"body":"lot on the fact that, well, I"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":268.29,"endTime":271.95,"body":"can become a deportable subject"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":268.29,"endTime":271.95,"body":"at any point when my residence"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":271.95,"endTime":276.12,"body":"permit expires. So, I had a"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":271.95,"endTime":276.12,"body":"Russian citizenship, and before"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":276.12,"endTime":279.06,"body":"– well, I still have it – but"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":276.12,"endTime":279.06,"body":"now I have double citizenship."},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":279.06,"endTime":283.59,"body":"And of course, it largely"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":279.06,"endTime":283.59,"body":"affects my sense of security, in"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":283.59,"endTime":287.07,"body":"the sense that, well, I'm not a"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":283.59,"endTime":287.07,"body":"deportable subject anymore and I"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":287.07,"endTime":290.82,"body":"don't need to depend on a system"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":287.07,"endTime":290.82,"body":"of residence permits to have a"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":290.82,"endTime":292.23,"body":"regular residence in Finland."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":292.29,"endTime":294.18,"body":"I guess"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":292.29,"endTime":294.18,"body":"that's a reminder that there are"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":294.21,"endTime":298.41,"body":"all sorts of definitions, right,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":294.21,"endTime":298.41,"body":"of security out there. And as we"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":298.41,"endTime":301.65,"body":"mentioned, security is a term"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":298.41,"endTime":301.65,"body":"that seems to belong either to"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":301.65,"endTime":305.1,"body":"the world of, like, on the one"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":301.65,"endTime":305.1,"body":"hand politics and geopolitics,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":305.58,"endTime":308.61,"body":"and at the level of the nation"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":305.58,"endTime":308.61,"body":"state, like borders, defence,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":308.61,"endTime":312.12,"body":"and so on; or otherwise it can"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":308.61,"endTime":312.12,"body":"belong also to the world of"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":312.12,"endTime":315.6,"body":"psychology at the really micro"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":312.12,"endTime":315.6,"body":"level, at the level of"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":315.6,"endTime":320.01,"body":"individuals. But how, like, you"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":315.6,"endTime":320.01,"body":"Daria ... how would you define"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":320.01,"endTime":323.28,"body":"security as a socio ... in like,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":320.01,"endTime":323.28,"body":"in sociological terms?"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":324.87,"endTime":328.23,"body":"Well, indeed,"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":324.87,"endTime":328.23,"body":"security is a really broad term."},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":328.23,"endTime":331.95,"body":"And I would say that quite often"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":328.23,"endTime":331.95,"body":"security is the term which is"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":331.95,"endTime":336.15,"body":"used more widely in"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":331.95,"endTime":336.15,"body":"international relations, or in"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":336.15,"endTime":339.45,"body":"politics, or international"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":336.15,"endTime":339.45,"body":"politics, when security is"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":339.45,"endTime":345.18,"body":"discussed more in terms of"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":339.45,"endTime":345.18,"body":"geopolitics or security of"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":345.18,"endTime":349.14,"body":"nation-states. But I think that"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":345.18,"endTime":349.14,"body":"sociologists and I, myself"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":349.14,"endTime":352.47,"body":"particularly, I'm more"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":349.14,"endTime":352.47,"body":"interested in questions of whose"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":352.47,"endTime":356.07,"body":"security are we talking about"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":352.47,"endTime":356.07,"body":"(?) and more in the questions of"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":356.07,"endTime":360.48,"body":"insecurity and precarity. And I"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":356.07,"endTime":360.48,"body":"would say that sociologists are"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":360.48,"endTime":363.42,"body":"much more interested in the"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":360.48,"endTime":363.42,"body":"questions of how security of"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":363.42,"endTime":367.59,"body":"some people depends and relies"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":363.42,"endTime":367.59,"body":"on the insecurity of other"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":367.59,"endTime":373.65,"body":"people; or how insecurity or"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":367.59,"endTime":373.65,"body":"imaginary security of a"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":373.65,"endTime":378.81,"body":"nation-state depends on everyday"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":373.65,"endTime":378.81,"body":"insecurity of migrants,"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":378.84,"endTime":382.68,"body":"racialised and non-white people."},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":378.84,"endTime":382.68,"body":"So, here I would say that it's"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":382.68,"endTime":386.28,"body":"more about kind of whose"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":382.68,"endTime":386.28,"body":"security we are talking about?"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":386.31,"endTime":389.4,"body":"There is no universal security,"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":386.31,"endTime":389.4,"body":"I would say."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":389.46,"endTime":391.95,"body":"Yeah, right. So,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":389.46,"endTime":391.95,"body":"I was thinking one of the things"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":391.95,"endTime":396.6,"body":"that does bridge psychology and"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":391.95,"endTime":396.6,"body":"sociology is an idea called"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":396.72,"endTime":401.19,"body":"ontological security, and bear"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":396.72,"endTime":401.19,"body":"with me guys, like, I know that"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":401.22,"endTime":404.94,"body":"we say \"no jargon\" – that's a"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":401.22,"endTime":404.94,"body":"pretty jargony word. So,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":404.94,"endTime":407.97,"body":"ontological security was talked"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":404.94,"endTime":407.97,"body":"about quite a while ago by"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":407.97,"endTime":411.93,"body":"people like the sociologist"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":407.97,"endTime":411.93,"body":"Anthony Giddens, and a couple of"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":411.93,"endTime":416.46,"body":"psychologists too, and the"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":411.93,"endTime":416.46,"body":"concept – so this is me trying"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":416.46,"endTime":419.07,"body":"to explain it... I'll do my"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":416.46,"endTime":419.07,"body":"best. The concept is all about"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":419.1,"endTime":423.42,"body":"the idea of a sense of security"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":419.1,"endTime":423.42,"body":"in one's own sense of self,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":423.45,"endTime":428.01,"body":"about our experience of being in"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":423.45,"endTime":428.01,"body":"the world. So, sociologists have"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":428.01,"endTime":431.58,"body":"used it to explore say, how we"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":428.01,"endTime":431.58,"body":"seek out certain things like"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":431.58,"endTime":438.3,"body":"belonging and community that"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":431.58,"endTime":438.3,"body":"help our sense of self be stable"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":438.3,"endTime":441.36,"body":"in response to the shifts and"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":438.3,"endTime":441.36,"body":"changes out there in the wider"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":441.36,"endTime":446.19,"body":"world. I mean, look, it's not a"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":441.36,"endTime":446.19,"body":"concept I work with myself, if"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":446.19,"endTime":450.12,"body":"you can't tell by that, that"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":446.19,"endTime":450.12,"body":"slightly odd explanation. But it"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":450.12,"endTime":452.19,"body":"seems that you could say it's"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":450.12,"endTime":452.19,"body":"something that's been really"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":452.19,"endTime":456.36,"body":"shaken for many people in recent"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":452.19,"endTime":456.36,"body":"years. Is ontological security,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":456.39,"endTime":460.74,"body":"basically, a luxury that some of"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":456.39,"endTime":460.74,"body":"us can access more easily than"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":460.74,"endTime":461.49,"body":"others?"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":462.87,"endTime":465.21,"body":"Well, to me,"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":462.87,"endTime":465.21,"body":"ontological security is a really"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":465.21,"endTime":468.63,"body":"broad term. And actually, I"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":465.21,"endTime":468.63,"body":"haven't worked with this term"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":468.63,"endTime":472.17,"body":"that much. To me, I think, it"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":468.63,"endTime":472.17,"body":"doesn't really capture all the"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":472.17,"endTime":475.92,"body":"nuances of security. And I"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":472.17,"endTime":475.92,"body":"started my explanation to my"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":475.92,"endTime":479.28,"body":"understanding of security that"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":475.92,"endTime":479.28,"body":"it's really, like ... we have to"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":479.28,"endTime":482.91,"body":"take questions of race, gender,"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":479.28,"endTime":482.91,"body":"sexuality, class, when we talk"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":482.91,"endTime":487.68,"body":"about security, and how security"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":482.91,"endTime":487.68,"body":"and insecurity, actually, widely"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":488.01,"endTime":491.61,"body":"are very closely connected."},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":488.01,"endTime":491.61,"body":"That's why I was always"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":491.61,"endTime":496.29,"body":"wondering how exactly does the"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":491.61,"endTime":496.29,"body":"concept of ontological security"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":496.29,"endTime":500.43,"body":"capture all these nuances?"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":496.29,"endTime":500.43,"body":"Because, to me, it tends to"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":500.79,"endTime":504.93,"body":"offer this kind of a universal"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":500.79,"endTime":504.93,"body":"explanation of security that we"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":504.93,"endTime":509.97,"body":"all share this \"universal\""},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":504.93,"endTime":509.97,"body":"ontological security. But then"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":509.97,"endTime":514.71,"body":"I'm wondering whose ontology"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":509.97,"endTime":514.71,"body":"we're talking about? If ontology"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":514.71,"endTime":518.85,"body":"is about being, then who's being"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":514.71,"endTime":518.85,"body":"we're talking about? And I think"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":518.85,"endTime":522.48,"body":"that's the key question"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":518.85,"endTime":522.48,"body":"sociologists have been working"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":522.48,"endTime":527.4,"body":"with. So, to me, I would say"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":522.48,"endTime":527.4,"body":"that maybe ontological security"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":527.4,"endTime":530.91,"body":"is a bit of a too broad term,"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":527.4,"endTime":530.91,"body":"and it doesn't convince me"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":530.91,"endTime":535.05,"body":"really. I would rather work with"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":530.91,"endTime":535.05,"body":"questions of insecurity."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":536.35,"endTime":539.68,"body":"Okay. Now,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":536.35,"endTime":539.68,"body":"keeping in line with"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":540.04,"endTime":544.21,"body":"jargon-busting, again, if we're"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":540.04,"endTime":544.21,"body":"talking about security, there's"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":544.21,"endTime":548.02,"body":"one word that's bound to come up"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":544.21,"endTime":548.02,"body":"pretty soon – securitisation."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":548.44,"endTime":551.77,"body":"So, I think it's worth stopping"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":548.44,"endTime":551.77,"body":"to define it right away. Can you"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":551.77,"endTime":553.24,"body":"define it a bit for us Daria?"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":554.05,"endTime":556.63,"body":"Yeah. I've been"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":554.05,"endTime":556.63,"body":"working and other people are"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":556.63,"endTime":559.84,"body":"working with questions of"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":556.63,"endTime":559.84,"body":"migration. We worked a lot with"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":559.84,"endTime":564.46,"body":"the concept of securitisation of"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":559.84,"endTime":564.46,"body":"migration. And I will define"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":565.21,"endTime":568.99,"body":"securitisation as a particular"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":565.21,"endTime":568.99,"body":"narrative through which"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":569.02,"endTime":573.43,"body":"immigration, for example, is"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":569.02,"endTime":573.43,"body":"defined as a threat to Europe or"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":573.43,"endTime":577.51,"body":"to Western communities. So,"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":573.43,"endTime":577.51,"body":"rather than thinking of security"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":577.51,"endTime":582.31,"body":"as something stable or given or"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":577.51,"endTime":582.31,"body":"static, we can think about"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":582.31,"endTime":587.38,"body":"securitisation as a process or"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":582.31,"endTime":587.38,"body":"as a narrative, which constructs"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":587.41,"endTime":592.03,"body":"certain people as a \"danger\" to"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":587.41,"endTime":592.03,"body":"security of other people or"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":592.03,"endTime":593.02,"body":"states, for example."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":593.17,"endTime":595.75,"body":"You're right. So,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":593.17,"endTime":595.75,"body":"I guess it's ... securitisation"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":595.75,"endTime":598.48,"body":"sort of works in the same way"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":595.75,"endTime":598.48,"body":"that a concept like"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":598.48,"endTime":604.81,"body":"criminalisation or racialisation"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":598.48,"endTime":604.81,"body":"works. So, you know, like, we"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":604.81,"endTime":607.72,"body":"talk about criminalisation"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":604.81,"endTime":607.72,"body":"rather than just criminals, or"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":607.72,"endTime":611.02,"body":"racialisation rather than just"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":607.72,"endTime":611.02,"body":"race, because no one's a"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":611.02,"endTime":613.87,"body":"criminal per se, and race"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":611.02,"endTime":613.87,"body":"doesn't pre-exist social"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":613.87,"endTime":620.47,"body":"processes. So, the \"-isation\" on"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":613.87,"endTime":620.47,"body":"securitisation does a similar"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":620.47,"endTime":624.16,"body":"thing, right? Like, migration"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":620.47,"endTime":624.16,"body":"isn't essentially threatening."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":624.19,"endTime":627.55,"body":"It's framed as a \"security"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":624.19,"endTime":627.55,"body":"threat\" by those who refer to it"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":627.55,"endTime":628.42,"body":"as such."},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":628.48,"endTime":631.12,"body":"Yeah, exactly. I"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":628.48,"endTime":631.12,"body":"think that this \"-isation\" in"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":631.12,"endTime":636.58,"body":"the end refers to the process of"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":631.12,"endTime":636.58,"body":"producing certain things as a"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":637.09,"endTime":640.39,"body":"\"threat\" or as a \"security"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":637.09,"endTime":640.39,"body":"threat\" to others. Or, if we"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":640.39,"endTime":644.29,"body":"think about racialisation, it's"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":640.39,"endTime":644.29,"body":"also about, like, producing"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":644.29,"endTime":650.53,"body":"certain subjects, rather than"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":644.29,"endTime":650.53,"body":"thinking of them as given or"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":650.56,"endTime":653.26,"body":"like biologically naturalised."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":653.26,"endTime":654.73,"body":"Yeah, I mean,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":653.26,"endTime":654.73,"body":"it's interesting, because, you"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":654.73,"endTime":658.6,"body":"know, thinking about migration"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":654.73,"endTime":658.6,"body":"not being inherently threatening"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":658.6,"endTime":663.82,"body":"in and of itself, I'm a migrant"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":658.6,"endTime":663.82,"body":"and I talk now like most"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":663.85,"endTime":666.94,"body":"Australians do as well, but I'm"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":663.85,"endTime":666.94,"body":"actually from New Zealand. But"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":666.94,"endTime":671.17,"body":"even when I just migrated, I"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":666.94,"endTime":671.17,"body":"wasn't necessarily ever"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":671.17,"endTime":674.62,"body":"considered or treated like a"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":671.17,"endTime":674.62,"body":"\"migrant\". I'm doing scare"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":674.62,"endTime":680.68,"body":"quotes for listeners at home."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":674.62,"endTime":680.68,"body":"Because, you know, the scary"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":680.68,"endTime":686.65,"body":"discourse about migrants is not"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":680.68,"endTime":686.65,"body":"necessarily about people like"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":686.65,"endTime":688.81,"body":"me, if that makes sense."},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":689.53,"endTime":691.75,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":689.53,"endTime":691.75,"body":"absolutely. I would say that we"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":691.75,"endTime":695.68,"body":"can also think about what the"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":691.75,"endTime":695.68,"body":"word \"migrant\" means and who we"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":695.68,"endTime":699.7,"body":"imagine as a migrant. And it's"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":695.68,"endTime":699.7,"body":"interesting that wherever I was"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":699.7,"endTime":703.66,"body":"doing my fieldwork – now, for"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":699.7,"endTime":703.66,"body":"example, I'm in Warsaw doing"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":703.66,"endTime":708.01,"body":"fieldwork among Ukrainian"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":703.66,"endTime":708.01,"body":"migrants, which ... I started"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":708.01,"endTime":712.99,"body":"this project before the Russian"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":708.01,"endTime":712.99,"body":"invasion of Ukraine. And also"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":712.99,"endTime":716.23,"body":"here, nobody wanted to be a"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":712.99,"endTime":716.23,"body":"\"migrant\". And whenever I would"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":716.23,"endTime":718.78,"body":"say that I'm studying Ukrainian"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":716.23,"endTime":718.78,"body":"migrants, they would say, like,"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":719.14,"endTime":722.38,"body":"\"no, but we are normal people,"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":719.14,"endTime":722.38,"body":"you should go to this particular"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":722.47,"endTime":725.02,"body":"bus station where labour"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":722.47,"endTime":725.02,"body":"migrants from Ukraine are"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":725.05,"endTime":730.33,"body":"arriving\". So, the idea of a"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":725.05,"endTime":730.33,"body":"migrant is really classed and"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":730.33,"endTime":736.57,"body":"racialised. So, not everybody is"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":730.33,"endTime":736.57,"body":"imagined as a migrant, and not"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":736.63,"endTime":739.27,"body":"everybody wants to be a migrant."},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":736.63,"endTime":739.27,"body":"That's why we have this word, as"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":739.27,"endTime":743.59,"body":"in \"expat\". People travelling"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":739.27,"endTime":743.59,"body":"within the EU – like, white"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":743.59,"endTime":747.82,"body":"people travelling within the EU"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":743.59,"endTime":747.82,"body":"or travelling to non-european"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":747.82,"endTime":751.21,"body":"countries that they would rather"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":747.82,"endTime":751.21,"body":"refer to themselves as \"expats\"."},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":751.36,"endTime":754.84,"body":"And I would even say that it"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":751.36,"endTime":754.84,"body":"might be an insult for them to"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":754.84,"endTime":756.58,"body":"be called \"migrants\"."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":756.58,"endTime":756.7,"body":"Really?"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":757.27,"endTime":759.7,"body":"Yeah, well,"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":757.27,"endTime":759.7,"body":"because \"migrant\" is ... as I"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":759.7,"endTime":763.18,"body":"said, it's a very kind of a"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":759.7,"endTime":763.18,"body":"classed and racialised category"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":763.18,"endTime":766.69,"body":"that usually non-white people"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":763.18,"endTime":766.69,"body":"might be referred to as"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":766.69,"endTime":770.8,"body":"\"migrants\". And we can think"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":766.69,"endTime":770.8,"body":"even further how people become"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":771.4,"endTime":777.4,"body":"migrantised, or migrantisised"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":771.4,"endTime":777.4,"body":"might be better. So, how"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":777.7,"endTime":781.03,"body":"citizens, like people who are"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":777.7,"endTime":781.03,"body":"born in the country, how they"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":781.03,"endTime":784.6,"body":"will be called \"migrants\" just"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":781.03,"endTime":784.6,"body":"because they're not white. So,"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":784.63,"endTime":789.7,"body":"we see here how, again, the idea"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":784.63,"endTime":789.7,"body":"of migration and migrant has"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":789.88,"endTime":794.68,"body":"nothing to do or has not ... it"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":789.88,"endTime":794.68,"body":"has nothing to do with one's"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":795.37,"endTime":799.33,"body":"citizenship status. Because you"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":795.37,"endTime":799.33,"body":"can be born in the country –"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":799.33,"endTime":801.28,"body":"yeah, exactly – and you'd be"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":799.33,"endTime":801.28,"body":"still referred to as a"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":801.28,"endTime":801.85,"body":"\"migrant\"."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":802.3,"endTime":803.44,"body":"That's"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":802.3,"endTime":803.44,"body":"really interesting, because"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":803.44,"endTime":806.95,"body":"like, I was born in Canada, but"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":803.44,"endTime":806.95,"body":"because my father is Vietnamese,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":806.95,"endTime":813.49,"body":"like, I look, I guess, not white"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":806.95,"endTime":813.49,"body":"– if that's a category – and I"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":813.49,"endTime":816.85,"body":"have my earliest memories, like"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":813.49,"endTime":816.85,"body":"going to elementary school and"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":816.85,"endTime":819.73,"body":"stuff like that, is about"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":816.85,"endTime":819.73,"body":"explaining where I'm from,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":819.73,"endTime":823.09,"body":"right, and definitely being"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":819.73,"endTime":823.09,"body":"considered as someone from"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":823.09,"endTime":828.49,"body":"outside of Canada. But talking"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":823.09,"endTime":828.49,"body":"about the securitisation of"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":828.49,"endTime":832.24,"body":"migration, a word that often"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":828.49,"endTime":832.24,"body":"comes with that is the word –"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":832.27,"endTime":836.32,"body":"crisis. So, I'm thinking, of"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":832.27,"endTime":836.32,"body":"course, of the so-called"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":836.35,"endTime":840.76,"body":"\"migrant crisis\" of 2015, when"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":836.35,"endTime":840.76,"body":"more than a million people"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":840.76,"endTime":844.12,"body":"labelled as \"migrants and"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":840.76,"endTime":844.12,"body":"refugees\" came to Europe via the"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":844.12,"endTime":848.47,"body":"Mediterranean Sea. Many, but not"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":844.12,"endTime":848.47,"body":"all, driven by war in Syria,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":848.47,"endTime":852.28,"body":"right? There's this book by"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":848.47,"endTime":852.28,"body":"Alison Mountz, \"The Death of"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":852.52,"endTime":857.35,"body":"Asylum\", where she highlights"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":852.52,"endTime":857.35,"body":"how the word \"crisis\" is often"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":857.38,"endTime":861.49,"body":"overused in the context of"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":857.38,"endTime":861.49,"body":"migration; how that word does"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":861.49,"endTime":865.48,"body":"serious political work. So, I"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":861.49,"endTime":865.48,"body":"wonder what happens if we talk"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":865.48,"endTime":869.74,"body":"about the so-called \"migrant"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":865.48,"endTime":869.74,"body":"crisis\" of 2015 with that kind"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":869.74,"endTime":871.96,"body":"of critical awareness in mind?"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":872.92,"endTime":875.56,"body":"I think it's"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":872.92,"endTime":875.56,"body":"important to think of \"crisis\""},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":875.56,"endTime":879.76,"body":"and the narrative of crisis as"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":875.56,"endTime":879.76,"body":"productive. So, and again, I"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":879.76,"endTime":882.61,"body":"think that all our conversation"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":879.76,"endTime":882.61,"body":"is about how we shouldn't take"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":882.64,"endTime":885.82,"body":"anything for granted neither"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":882.64,"endTime":885.82,"body":"\"security\" nor \"crisis\", nor"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":885.82,"endTime":892.06,"body":"\"migrant\". So, let's take one"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":885.82,"endTime":892.06,"body":"more word, well – crisis. I"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":892.06,"endTime":896.41,"body":"think it's a really dangerous"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":892.06,"endTime":896.41,"body":"way to frame certain things as"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":896.41,"endTime":900.64,"body":"crisis, and for example, what"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":896.41,"endTime":900.64,"body":"was happening in 2015 when one"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":900.64,"endTime":904.06,"body":"million people labelled as"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":900.64,"endTime":904.06,"body":"\"refugees and migrants\" came to"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":904.06,"endTime":908.77,"body":"Europe, then the situation was"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":904.06,"endTime":908.77,"body":"framed as \"crisis\". But, then,"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":908.77,"endTime":911.86,"body":"we can also ask what this"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":908.77,"endTime":911.86,"body":"narrative and the discourse of"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":911.89,"endTime":917.14,"body":"\"crisis\" do? Because when we"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":911.89,"endTime":917.14,"body":"call something \"crisis\", then we"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":917.14,"endTime":922.36,"body":"frame the situation as really"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":917.14,"endTime":922.36,"body":"unprecedented, unexpected,"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":923.02,"endTime":928.48,"body":"something that should require"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":923.02,"endTime":928.48,"body":"very fast, immediate,"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":928.51,"endTime":931.84,"body":"unprecedented response. And I"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":928.51,"endTime":931.84,"body":"think this is the moment when we"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":931.84,"endTime":936.13,"body":"should look into how border"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":931.84,"endTime":936.13,"body":"enforcement becomes even more"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":936.13,"endTime":939.97,"body":"strengthened, and how more and"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":936.13,"endTime":939.97,"body":"more money is being invested"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":939.97,"endTime":943.45,"body":"into the policing of borders."},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":939.97,"endTime":943.45,"body":"And then it becomes all"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":943.45,"endTime":946.36,"body":"naturalised and explained ..."},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":943.45,"endTime":946.36,"body":"\"Well, we are in a situation of"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":946.36,"endTime":950.26,"body":"crisis, we have to react, we"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":946.36,"endTime":950.26,"body":"have to ... we have to protect"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":950.26,"endTime":952.33,"body":"our borders, we have to protect"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":950.26,"endTime":952.33,"body":"ourselves.\""},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":952.38,"endTime":955.59,"body":"I mean, yeah, I"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":952.38,"endTime":955.59,"body":"mean, like, I think one of the"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":955.59,"endTime":958.89,"body":"other things that's really"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":955.59,"endTime":958.89,"body":"interesting is that it's framed"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":958.89,"endTime":963.03,"body":"as a \"migrant crisis\", whereas"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":958.89,"endTime":963.03,"body":"you could just as easily frame"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":963.03,"endTime":968.37,"body":"it as a \"protection crisis\". So,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":963.03,"endTime":968.37,"body":"you know, it's, it's, I think"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":968.37,"endTime":970.62,"body":"... and I'm getting this from"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":968.37,"endTime":970.62,"body":"the Danish Refugee Council, who"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":970.62,"endTime":974.28,"body":"described this so-called"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":970.62,"endTime":974.28,"body":"\"migrant crisis\" of 2015 as a"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":974.28,"endTime":977.85,"body":"protection crisis. And they"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":974.28,"endTime":977.85,"body":"said, it's due to a lack of will"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":978.45,"endTime":982.59,"body":"to share the responsibility to"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":978.45,"endTime":982.59,"body":"protect refugees arriving in the"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":982.62,"endTime":986.55,"body":"EU. So, the crisis is actually,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":982.62,"endTime":986.55,"body":"you know, experienced by the"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":986.55,"endTime":987.21,"body":"migrants."},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":987.63,"endTime":991.29,"body":"Yeah, we can"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":987.63,"endTime":991.29,"body":"ask, whose crisis is it? Because"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":991.56,"endTime":995.13,"body":"many EU countries frame it as"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":991.56,"endTime":995.13,"body":"the crisis of the EU"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":995.13,"endTime":997.62,"body":"nation-states; that they are in"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":995.13,"endTime":997.62,"body":"crisis. Well, actually, if we"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":997.62,"endTime":1002.48,"body":"think about it ... rather think"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":997.62,"endTime":1002.48,"body":"about it as a crisis of migrants"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1002.48,"endTime":1007.28,"body":"and a humanitarian catastrophe"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1002.48,"endTime":1007.28,"body":"when, well, when people are"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1007.28,"endTime":1011.84,"body":"being violently expelled from"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1007.28,"endTime":1011.84,"body":"the borders. So, whose crisis is"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1011.84,"endTime":1016.28,"body":"it? And again, there is a"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1011.84,"endTime":1016.28,"body":"tendency to portray European"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1016.28,"endTime":1019.52,"body":"states as being the ones that"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1016.28,"endTime":1019.52,"body":"bear all the costs of this"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1019.61,"endTime":1022.37,"body":"so-called \"crisis\", while"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1019.61,"endTime":1022.37,"body":"actually these other"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1022.37,"endTime":1027.14,"body":"neighbouring states, like"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1022.37,"endTime":1027.14,"body":"Lebanon, for example – which"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1027.2,"endTime":1030.74,"body":"holds, like, a much bigger"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1027.2,"endTime":1030.74,"body":"number of Syrian refugees than"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1030.74,"endTime":1036.05,"body":"Europe, for example, per capita."},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1030.74,"endTime":1036.05,"body":"And again, there is a tendency"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1036.05,"endTime":1041.0,"body":"to think about crisis in terms"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1036.05,"endTime":1041.0,"body":"of numbers. But, again, if you"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1041.0,"endTime":1044.75,"body":"will look into the data, we"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1041.0,"endTime":1044.75,"body":"understand that crisis has"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1044.84,"endTime":1048.68,"body":"little to do with numbers"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1044.84,"endTime":1048.68,"body":"themselves. And if we look into"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1048.71,"endTime":1053.27,"body":"the current situation with"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1048.71,"endTime":1053.27,"body":"Ukrainian refugees; so, it's the"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1053.27,"endTime":1060.56,"body":"71st day of the war. And in this"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1053.27,"endTime":1060.56,"body":"time, Poland alone has accepted"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1060.56,"endTime":1064.91,"body":"2.5 million Ukrainian refugees,"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1060.56,"endTime":1064.91,"body":"and we can't see the word"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1064.91,"endTime":1070.25,"body":"\"crisis\" circulating anywhere."},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1064.91,"endTime":1070.25,"body":"And the same happens in Finland,"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1070.28,"endTime":1077.06,"body":"when 30,000 asylum seekers from"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1070.28,"endTime":1077.06,"body":"Iraq and Afghanistan arrived to"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1077.06,"endTime":1080.81,"body":"Finland in 2015, then it was"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1077.06,"endTime":1080.81,"body":"seen as this massive and"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1080.81,"endTime":1085.55,"body":"unprecedented \"crisis\". But now,"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1080.81,"endTime":1085.55,"body":"around 20,000 Ukrainian refugees"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1085.55,"endTime":1090.53,"body":"arrived in two months and we"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1085.55,"endTime":1090.53,"body":"don't see anywhere the"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1090.53,"endTime":1093.11,"body":"circulation of this \"crisis\""},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1090.53,"endTime":1093.11,"body":"discourse."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1094.44,"endTime":1098.31,"body":"Yeah. So, just a"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1094.44,"endTime":1098.31,"body":"quick note to listeners, you say"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1098.31,"endTime":1101.46,"body":"it's the 71st day of the war,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1098.31,"endTime":1101.46,"body":"and we're recording this in May"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1101.49,"endTime":1105.39,"body":"2022. So, you know, who knows"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1101.49,"endTime":1105.39,"body":"where things will be when this"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1105.39,"endTime":1109.2,"body":"goes out. Now, there are many"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1105.39,"endTime":1109.2,"body":"conflicts around the world that"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1109.2,"endTime":1112.02,"body":"are threatening people's"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1109.2,"endTime":1112.02,"body":"security. Yemen, where the World"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1112.02,"endTime":1115.47,"body":"Food Programme reports that up"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1112.02,"endTime":1115.47,"body":"to 19 million people are"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1115.47,"endTime":1119.07,"body":"experiencing food insecurity,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1115.47,"endTime":1119.07,"body":"and that includes millions of"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1119.07,"endTime":1123.48,"body":"children suffering from acute"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1119.07,"endTime":1123.48,"body":"malnutrition. And in Ethiopia,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1123.51,"endTime":1126.72,"body":"where violence and ethnic"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1123.51,"endTime":1126.72,"body":"cleansing have shaken the tenets"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1126.72,"endTime":1130.35,"body":"of what we think of as human"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1126.72,"endTime":1130.35,"body":"security. So, that's things like"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1130.35,"endTime":1134.85,"body":"freedom from fear, freedom from"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1130.35,"endTime":1134.85,"body":"want, and so on. But security"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1134.85,"endTime":1138.06,"body":"has been in the headlines a lot"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1134.85,"endTime":1138.06,"body":"recently, because of Ukraine, I"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1138.06,"endTime":1142.95,"body":"think, and where you are, Daria,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1138.06,"endTime":1142.95,"body":"there's been speculation, at"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1143.01,"endTime":1146.25,"body":"least at the time of recording"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1143.01,"endTime":1146.25,"body":"this episode, that Finland is"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1146.25,"endTime":1150.48,"body":"going to join NATO prompted by"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1146.25,"endTime":1150.48,"body":"this assault on Ukraine. That"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1150.51,"endTime":1154.89,"body":"seems to be about security in"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1150.51,"endTime":1154.89,"body":"the most conventional sense. But"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1154.89,"endTime":1158.52,"body":"how has this word, \"security\","},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1154.89,"endTime":1158.52,"body":"been coming up in other"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1158.52,"endTime":1162.96,"body":"conversations that you might be"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1158.52,"endTime":1162.96,"body":"hearing? I'm thinking about what"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1162.96,"endTime":1166.98,"body":"is sociologically interesting"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1162.96,"endTime":1166.98,"body":"about the war in Ukraine and the"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1166.98,"endTime":1169.68,"body":"language of security that's"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1166.98,"endTime":1169.68,"body":"surrounding it."},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1170.69,"endTime":1173.72,"body":"One way we can"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1170.69,"endTime":1173.72,"body":"talk about that is to think"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1173.72,"endTime":1176.3,"body":"about temporary protection,"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1173.72,"endTime":1176.3,"body":"which is now granted to"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1176.3,"endTime":1180.56,"body":"Ukrainian refugees; and indeed,"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1176.3,"endTime":1180.56,"body":"is now celebrated as a very"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1180.56,"endTime":1184.04,"body":"unprecedented decision, which"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1180.56,"endTime":1184.04,"body":"was made really quickly to"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1184.1,"endTime":1188.96,"body":"support Ukrainian refugees. But"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1184.1,"endTime":1188.96,"body":"then we can also think about"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1188.96,"endTime":1191.9,"body":"what kind of security it"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1188.96,"endTime":1191.9,"body":"entails, because a temporary"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1191.9,"endTime":1195.77,"body":"protection means that people"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1191.9,"endTime":1195.77,"body":"have, like, an immediate rights"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1195.77,"endTime":1200.24,"body":"to stay – to stay in the EU –"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1195.77,"endTime":1200.24,"body":"for a year and then it can be"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1200.24,"endTime":1204.26,"body":"extended to up to three years."},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1200.24,"endTime":1204.26,"body":"But then, what kind of security"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1204.26,"endTime":1208.43,"body":"is that? Because people are"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1204.26,"endTime":1208.43,"body":"expected to join labour markets"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1208.43,"endTime":1212.27,"body":"immediately, and they don't"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1208.43,"endTime":1212.27,"body":"receive any welfare protection"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1212.27,"endTime":1216.62,"body":"and any social security rights."},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1212.27,"endTime":1216.62,"body":"So, they would ... in the"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1216.62,"endTime":1219.26,"body":"context of Finland, for example,"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1216.62,"endTime":1219.26,"body":"that they would get access to"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1219.26,"endTime":1224.99,"body":"housing, like in reception"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1219.26,"endTime":1224.99,"body":"centres, and then, 270 EUROS a"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1224.99,"endTime":1229.61,"body":"month of monetary support. But"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1224.99,"endTime":1229.61,"body":"then, of course, you can't make"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1229.61,"endTime":1232.64,"body":"a living out of this money, and"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1229.61,"endTime":1232.64,"body":"then you're expected to join the"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1232.64,"endTime":1237.2,"body":"labour markets. And we can also"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1232.64,"endTime":1237.2,"body":"think about how, previously,"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1237.2,"endTime":1241.31,"body":"Ukrainian labour was really"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1237.2,"endTime":1241.31,"body":"sustaining European economies"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1241.31,"endTime":1244.67,"body":"for a really long time,"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1241.31,"endTime":1244.67,"body":"particularly in the context of"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1244.67,"endTime":1249.05,"body":"seasonal labour, and quite"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1244.67,"endTime":1249.05,"body":"often, the hosting of Ukrainian"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1249.05,"endTime":1252.56,"body":"or the welcoming of Ukrainian"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1249.05,"endTime":1252.56,"body":"refugees is discussed in the"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1252.56,"endTime":1257.57,"body":"context of absorbing their"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1252.56,"endTime":1257.57,"body":"labour, for example, in"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1257.57,"endTime":1260.63,"body":"agricultural work. And many"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1257.57,"endTime":1260.63,"body":"Finnish farmers already are"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1260.63,"endTime":1263.45,"body":"discussing that, \"okay, we"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1260.63,"endTime":1263.45,"body":"really need these Ukrainian"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1263.45,"endTime":1266.51,"body":"refugees to labour in our"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1263.45,"endTime":1266.51,"body":"farms\", which was already"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1266.51,"endTime":1270.65,"body":"happening before but now these"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1266.51,"endTime":1270.65,"body":"labour migrants are coming to"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1270.65,"endTime":1274.25,"body":"fill in into other countries as"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1270.65,"endTime":1274.25,"body":"refugees. And now are expected"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1274.25,"endTime":1279.23,"body":"to be reabsorbed as labour"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1274.25,"endTime":1279.23,"body":"again. And then, again, we think"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1279.23,"endTime":1283.34,"body":"about how Ukrainianess is not"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1279.23,"endTime":1283.34,"body":"anything universal, and how, for"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1283.34,"endTime":1288.56,"body":"example, students from African"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1283.34,"endTime":1288.56,"body":"countries face discrimination"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1288.71,"endTime":1292.85,"body":"and were even, like, expelled at"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1288.71,"endTime":1292.85,"body":"some times when trying to access"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1293.0,"endTime":1298.22,"body":"the European borders. And again,"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1293.0,"endTime":1298.22,"body":"we can see that there is nothing"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1298.22,"endTime":1302.45,"body":"universal about security, even"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1298.22,"endTime":1302.45,"body":"when you're coming from Ukraine,"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1302.45,"endTime":1304.4,"body":"which is being bombed by Russia"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1302.45,"endTime":1304.4,"body":"at the moment."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1304.78,"endTime":1307.03,"body":"On this"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1304.78,"endTime":1307.03,"body":"point of the response to"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1307.03,"endTime":1310.03,"body":"Ukrainian refugees – like,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1307.03,"endTime":1310.03,"body":"raising questions of unequal"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1310.03,"endTime":1314.14,"body":"treatment of different refugees"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1310.03,"endTime":1314.14,"body":"and migrant groups, right? Where"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1314.14,"endTime":1317.65,"body":"I am, in the City of Ottawa"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1314.14,"endTime":1317.65,"body":"debated the idea of giving"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1317.65,"endTime":1321.55,"body":"Ukrainians a free bus pass – I"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1317.65,"endTime":1321.55,"body":"think it was like for six months"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1321.55,"endTime":1326.17,"body":"– to help them with arrivals and"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1321.55,"endTime":1326.17,"body":"exactly, like, looking for jobs"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1326.17,"endTime":1331.03,"body":"and so on, right? But obviously,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1326.17,"endTime":1331.03,"body":"other people ask, \"well, what"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1331.03,"endTime":1335.71,"body":"about other people who are also,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1331.03,"endTime":1335.71,"body":"for example, refugees, who are"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1335.71,"endTime":1339.07,"body":"being displaced? Who are"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1335.71,"endTime":1339.07,"body":"arriving to Canada, right?\" They"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1339.07,"endTime":1342.34,"body":"also have needs, right? So, in"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1339.07,"endTime":1342.34,"body":"the end, it seems like the"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1342.34,"endTime":1345.94,"body":"authorities will indeed make"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1342.34,"endTime":1345.94,"body":"that available to more people,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1345.94,"endTime":1350.08,"body":"but I think it shows us exactly"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1345.94,"endTime":1350.08,"body":"how different groups of people"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1350.17,"endTime":1353.95,"body":"with similar needs actually"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1350.17,"endTime":1353.95,"body":"might be understood, framed,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1353.95,"endTime":1358.69,"body":"defined, labeled, etc,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1353.95,"endTime":1358.69,"body":"differently, just because of who"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1358.69,"endTime":1363.49,"body":"they are or where they're from,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1358.69,"endTime":1363.49,"body":"basically. In Europe, there have"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1363.49,"endTime":1366.82,"body":"been many reports of people of"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1363.49,"endTime":1366.82,"body":"colour fleeing Ukraine, but"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1366.82,"endTime":1370.12,"body":"being turned away at the borders"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1366.82,"endTime":1370.12,"body":"of neighbouring states, and your"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1370.12,"endTime":1374.83,"body":"work on racial capitalism,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1370.12,"endTime":1374.83,"body":"predating the conflict in"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1374.83,"endTime":1378.58,"body":"Ukraine, adds to these recent"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1374.83,"endTime":1378.58,"body":"examples of racism. I'm thinking"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1378.58,"endTime":1382.09,"body":"of your piece about young white"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1378.58,"endTime":1382.09,"body":"people migrating from Ukraine"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1382.24,"endTime":1386.17,"body":"and Russia to Finland and"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1382.24,"endTime":1386.17,"body":"Poland. Can you expand a bit"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1386.17,"endTime":1390.04,"body":"more and tell us a bit more"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1386.17,"endTime":1390.04,"body":"about that work, and in doing so"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1390.04,"endTime":1393.31,"body":"also about what racial"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1390.04,"endTime":1393.31,"body":"capitalism actually is?"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1394.43,"endTime":1396.71,"body":"When I was"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1394.43,"endTime":1396.71,"body":"writing that piece, I was"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1396.74,"endTime":1400.76,"body":"thinking a lot about how there"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1396.74,"endTime":1400.76,"body":"is so much work which discusses"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1400.76,"endTime":1404.81,"body":"how East European migrants are"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1400.76,"endTime":1404.81,"body":"not considered as fully white;"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1405.2,"endTime":1409.43,"body":"how their whiteness is"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1405.2,"endTime":1409.43,"body":"contingent, insecure; how this"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1409.43,"endTime":1413.0,"body":"whiteness is not a full"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1409.43,"endTime":1413.0,"body":"whiteness, which Western"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1413.0,"endTime":1416.87,"body":"European – white Western"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1413.0,"endTime":1416.87,"body":"European – people would enjoy."},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1417.29,"endTime":1421.19,"body":"But then, I was thinking what"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1417.29,"endTime":1421.19,"body":"work this racialisation does."},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1421.22,"endTime":1425.18,"body":"So, what does it mean when"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1421.22,"endTime":1425.18,"body":"you're a not fully white person?"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1425.54,"endTime":1429.53,"body":"And then I was thinking that it"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1425.54,"endTime":1429.53,"body":"might be helpful to think in"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1429.53,"endTime":1435.2,"body":"terms of racial capitalism, and"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1429.53,"endTime":1435.2,"body":"to look into how this non fully"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1435.2,"endTime":1439.04,"body":"white people become absorbed by"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1435.2,"endTime":1439.04,"body":"the labour markets as cheap and"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1439.04,"endTime":1443.0,"body":"labour, while at the same time"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1439.04,"endTime":1443.0,"body":"not disturbing and not"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1443.51,"endTime":1446.93,"body":"destabilising the hegemonic"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1443.51,"endTime":1446.93,"body":"whiteness of West European"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1446.93,"endTime":1451.64,"body":"societies. So, for example, if"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1446.93,"endTime":1451.64,"body":"we take the context of Poland,"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1451.64,"endTime":1455.54,"body":"which was usually discussed as"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1451.64,"endTime":1455.54,"body":"this country from where many"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1455.54,"endTime":1460.01,"body":"people would arrive to the UK,"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1455.54,"endTime":1460.01,"body":"for example, and there was a lot"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1460.01,"endTime":1463.73,"body":"of work on Polish migrants in"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1460.01,"endTime":1463.73,"body":"the UK, but also Poland is"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1463.73,"endTime":1467.36,"body":"becoming this country which"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1463.73,"endTime":1467.36,"body":"hosts a very big number of"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1467.63,"endTime":1472.4,"body":"Ukrainian labour migrants – well"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1467.63,"endTime":1472.4,"body":"now, Ukrainian refugees. And"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1472.49,"endTime":1475.7,"body":"before the war, at least, the"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1472.49,"endTime":1475.7,"body":"recruitment of Ukrainian workers"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1475.79,"endTime":1479.36,"body":"had been one of the responses to"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1475.79,"endTime":1479.36,"body":"the demographic decline of"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1479.36,"endTime":1483.62,"body":"Polish workers who now migrated"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1479.36,"endTime":1483.62,"body":"further west. And then, on the"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1483.62,"endTime":1486.89,"body":"one hand, we can see how"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1483.62,"endTime":1486.89,"body":"Ukrainian students and student"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1486.89,"endTime":1491.18,"body":"workers and workers were"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1486.89,"endTime":1491.18,"body":"recruited as desirable,"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1491.57,"endTime":1496.01,"body":"culturally similar or"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1491.57,"endTime":1496.01,"body":"linguistically similar workers"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1496.01,"endTime":1499.46,"body":"who are welcome to Poland and"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1496.01,"endTime":1499.46,"body":"who should be kind of fill in"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1499.46,"endTime":1505.04,"body":"the demand for labour. But, at"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1499.46,"endTime":1505.04,"body":"the same time, we can see how"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1505.07,"endTime":1509.0,"body":"these workers were incorporated"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1505.07,"endTime":1509.0,"body":"as a really cheap and precarious"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1509.0,"endTime":1512.96,"body":"labour force, and how on the day"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1509.0,"endTime":1512.96,"body":"to day level, these migrants"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1512.96,"endTime":1517.22,"body":"experienced everyday bordering"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1512.96,"endTime":1517.22,"body":"and everyday forms of racism."},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1517.22,"endTime":1520.91,"body":"So, whoever I would talk to"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1517.22,"endTime":1520.91,"body":"their will tell me about their"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1520.91,"endTime":1523.97,"body":"everyday experiences of being"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1520.91,"endTime":1523.97,"body":"harassed on the streets."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1527.33,"endTime":1529.82,"body":"We'll be back in"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1527.33,"endTime":1529.82,"body":"a moment to talk more about work"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1529.82,"endTime":1533.72,"body":"and insecurity, after a quick"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1529.82,"endTime":1533.72,"body":"hello from our producer, Alice."},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1534.74,"endTime":1537.2,"body":"Hi, and thanks for"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1534.74,"endTime":1537.2,"body":"joining us here at Uncommon"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1537.2,"endTime":1541.04,"body":"Sense. Each month we invite an"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1537.2,"endTime":1541.04,"body":"expert guest to join us and"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1541.04,"endTime":1544.37,"body":"manoeuvre an everyday concept we"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1541.04,"endTime":1544.37,"body":"all tend to think we understand."},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1544.64,"endTime":1547.55,"body":"And together we work to see it"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1544.64,"endTime":1547.55,"body":"differently, through a simple"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1547.58,"endTime":1551.21,"body":"sociological lens. You can head"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1547.58,"endTime":1551.21,"body":"to our archive to catch people"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1551.21,"endTime":1555.02,"body":"like the feminist Bev Skeggs"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1551.21,"endTime":1555.02,"body":"shaking up the idea of care – it"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1555.02,"endTime":1558.59,"body":"is, she says, about things like"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1555.02,"endTime":1558.59,"body":"taxation, climate change, a"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1558.59,"endTime":1561.86,"body":"whole ethic of social"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1558.59,"endTime":1561.86,"body":"responsibility, really – or hear"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1561.86,"endTime":1564.56,"body":"activist scholar Remi"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1561.86,"endTime":1564.56,"body":"Joseph-Salisbury in our episode"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1564.56,"endTime":1568.85,"body":"on school, reflecting on what a"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1564.56,"endTime":1568.85,"body":"good education actually is."},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1569.06,"endTime":1571.97,"body":"You'll find reading lists and"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1569.06,"endTime":1571.97,"body":"more on the podcast page at"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1571.97,"endTime":1575.72,"body":"thesociologicalreview.org. And"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1571.97,"endTime":1575.72,"body":"do remember to tap follow in the"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1575.72,"endTime":1579.11,"body":"app you're using to hear this,"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1575.72,"endTime":1579.11,"body":"it helps us to keep making this"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1579.11,"endTime":1581.63,"body":"podcast for everyone. We'll see"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1579.11,"endTime":1581.63,"body":"you back here next month."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1589.01,"endTime":1591.41,"body":"Well, this seems"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1589.01,"endTime":1591.41,"body":"like a good moment to dig a"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1591.41,"endTime":1595.52,"body":"little bit deeper into security"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1591.41,"endTime":1595.52,"body":"as it relates to migration work"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1595.52,"endTime":1598.97,"body":"and labour, which we've already"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1595.52,"endTime":1598.97,"body":"kind of just started talking"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1598.97,"endTime":1603.71,"body":"about, a little bit. So, back in"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1598.97,"endTime":1603.71,"body":"2020, at the start of the"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1603.71,"endTime":1607.91,"body":"COVID-19 pandemic, Daria, you"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1603.71,"endTime":1607.91,"body":"wrote about how, although many"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1607.91,"endTime":1611.15,"body":"countries in Europe had closed"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1607.91,"endTime":1611.15,"body":"their borders, some of the very"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1611.15,"endTime":1614.78,"body":"few international flights that"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1611.15,"endTime":1614.78,"body":"did, at least then, continue to"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1614.78,"endTime":1618.35,"body":"operate were charter flights"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1614.78,"endTime":1618.35,"body":"with workers from Eastern"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1618.35,"endTime":1622.64,"body":"Europe. Essentially, they were"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1618.35,"endTime":1622.64,"body":"allowing workers in fields like"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1622.64,"endTime":1627.74,"body":"health care and food to reach"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1622.64,"endTime":1627.74,"body":"their places of work. And, with"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1627.74,"endTime":1631.22,"body":"this, you say that the words"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1627.74,"endTime":1631.22,"body":"\"borders\" and \"security\""},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1631.25,"endTime":1634.31,"body":"acquired a totally opposite"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1631.25,"endTime":1634.31,"body":"meaning to the one we've all"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1634.31,"endTime":1638.12,"body":"gotten used to in recent"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1634.31,"endTime":1638.12,"body":"decades. So, in other words,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1638.57,"endTime":1641.99,"body":"here was the idea that borders"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1638.57,"endTime":1641.99,"body":"actually had to be kept open to"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1641.99,"endTime":1646.01,"body":"ensure our security. And that"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1641.99,"endTime":1646.01,"body":"kind of offers up a whole new"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1646.01,"endTime":1648.98,"body":"understanding of what we mean by"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1646.01,"endTime":1648.98,"body":"security – like, something to do"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1648.98,"endTime":1652.76,"body":"with, apparently, our quality of"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1648.98,"endTime":1652.76,"body":"life, the standard of living"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1652.79,"endTime":1654.35,"body":"with food security."},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1654.92,"endTime":1657.23,"body":"Yeah, that's"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1654.92,"endTime":1657.23,"body":"right. We could see how the"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1657.23,"endTime":1662.06,"body":"borders had to remain open"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1657.23,"endTime":1662.06,"body":"specifically for so-called"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1662.09,"endTime":1664.94,"body":"\"essential workers\" coming from"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1662.09,"endTime":1664.94,"body":"Eastern Europe to work in the"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1664.97,"endTime":1667.94,"body":"agricultural sector. And I"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1664.97,"endTime":1667.94,"body":"thought that it was quite"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1667.94,"endTime":1671.0,"body":"interesting how the whole"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1667.94,"endTime":1671.0,"body":"discourse of security suddenly"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1671.0,"endTime":1675.89,"body":"changed in relation to borders,"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1671.0,"endTime":1675.89,"body":"because now the question of food"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1675.89,"endTime":1680.6,"body":"security in western and northern"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1675.89,"endTime":1680.6,"body":"Europe became so important. And"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1680.6,"endTime":1685.25,"body":"we suddenly realise that the"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1680.6,"endTime":1685.25,"body":"food that we get to our place"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1685.25,"endTime":1688.07,"body":"doesn't come from nowhere, but"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1685.25,"endTime":1688.07,"body":"somebody has to come and"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1688.07,"endTime":1693.68,"body":"actually grow the vegetables,"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1688.07,"endTime":1693.68,"body":"pick them up. So, the borders"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1693.68,"endTime":1697.34,"body":"really had to be open"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1693.68,"endTime":1697.34,"body":"exclusively for agricultural"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1697.34,"endTime":1699.5,"body":"workers coming from Eastern"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1697.34,"endTime":1699.5,"body":"Europe."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1699.53,"endTime":1701.75,"body":"Now, what"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1699.53,"endTime":1701.75,"body":"we're talking about here seems"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1701.75,"endTime":1705.5,"body":"to apply more generally way"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1701.75,"endTime":1705.5,"body":"beyond COVID. And, I guess,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1705.5,"endTime":1710.18,"body":"we're getting at this idea that,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1705.5,"endTime":1710.18,"body":"under capitalism, the security"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1710.18,"endTime":1715.1,"body":"of some depends on the"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1710.18,"endTime":1715.1,"body":"insecurity of others, yes? And"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1715.1,"endTime":1718.55,"body":"it kind of reminds me, in fact,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1715.1,"endTime":1718.55,"body":"of last month's episode, where"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1718.55,"endTime":1722.06,"body":"we talked about intimacy and the"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1718.55,"endTime":1722.06,"body":"illusion of contactless"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1722.09,"endTime":1725.9,"body":"transactions. Really, our"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1722.09,"endTime":1725.9,"body":"consumption or prosperity"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1725.9,"endTime":1730.82,"body":"depends big time on the labour,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1725.9,"endTime":1730.82,"body":"often the precarious labour, the"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1730.82,"endTime":1733.19,"body":"invisible labour of others,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1730.82,"endTime":1733.19,"body":"right?"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1733.22,"endTime":1736.01,"body":"Yeah, that's"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1733.22,"endTime":1736.01,"body":"true. If we think about security"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1736.04,"endTime":1740.51,"body":"as about the ability of life"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1736.04,"endTime":1740.51,"body":"going forward, then we should"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1740.51,"endTime":1743.63,"body":"really look into who makes this"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1740.51,"endTime":1743.63,"body":"life possible. And then"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1743.66,"endTime":1746.27,"body":"essentially, we have to start"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1743.66,"endTime":1746.27,"body":"talking about questions of"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1746.27,"endTime":1750.59,"body":"labour. But, quite often, when"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1746.27,"endTime":1750.59,"body":"we talk about labour we tend to"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1750.59,"endTime":1754.19,"body":"think about this kind of"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1750.59,"endTime":1754.19,"body":"productive labour, but we ... or"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1754.22,"endTime":1758.63,"body":"profit-making labour. But we can"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1754.22,"endTime":1758.63,"body":"also kind of change the focus"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1758.63,"endTime":1763.25,"body":"and think about what some"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1758.63,"endTime":1763.25,"body":"feminists called life-making"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1763.25,"endTime":1766.76,"body":"labour. And we also can think"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1763.25,"endTime":1766.76,"body":"about agricultural labour as"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1766.76,"endTime":1771.41,"body":"life-making labour. Exactly, the"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1766.76,"endTime":1771.41,"body":"question of food security"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1771.56,"endTime":1776.42,"body":"relates to the questions of life"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1771.56,"endTime":1776.42,"body":"and maintaining our lives. So,"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1776.48,"endTime":1779.3,"body":"then, we have to look into,"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1776.48,"endTime":1779.3,"body":"well, who is actually"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1779.3,"endTime":1783.89,"body":"maintaining and reproducing our"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1779.3,"endTime":1783.89,"body":"lives? And the history of this"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1783.89,"endTime":1786.8,"body":"labour is the history of"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1783.89,"endTime":1786.8,"body":"unrecognition and"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1786.8,"endTime":1787.64,"body":"misrecognition."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1788.0,"endTime":1791.24,"body":"So, for the"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1788.0,"endTime":1791.24,"body":"fieldwork that you did in the"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1791.24,"endTime":1794.63,"body":"piece we were just talking about"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1791.24,"endTime":1794.63,"body":"before, you were talking to"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1794.63,"endTime":1798.5,"body":"Ukrainian workers about their"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1794.63,"endTime":1798.5,"body":"experiences of precarious labour"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1798.53,"endTime":1802.07,"body":"in the COVID-19 crisis and you"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1798.53,"endTime":1802.07,"body":"found that they were generally"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1802.25,"endTime":1807.14,"body":"underpaid and unprotected. And,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1802.25,"endTime":1807.14,"body":"I mean, that's something that I"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1807.14,"endTime":1810.14,"body":"think is really important to"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1807.14,"endTime":1810.14,"body":"raise because there's all of"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1810.14,"endTime":1813.08,"body":"this discourse around"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1810.14,"endTime":1813.08,"body":"#StandwithUkraine, which is ..."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1813.26,"endTime":1816.08,"body":"it's definitely had a moment"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1813.26,"endTime":1816.08,"body":"here in Australia. I'm wondering"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1816.08,"endTime":1819.14,"body":"if you know, maybe you've ..."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1816.08,"endTime":1819.14,"body":"it's been big in Finland too (?)"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1819.47,"endTime":1823.67,"body":"But considering so much of"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1819.47,"endTime":1823.67,"body":"Ukraine's GDP comes from"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1823.67,"endTime":1828.8,"body":"remittances from money sent back"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1823.67,"endTime":1828.8,"body":"home from migrant workers – and"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1828.83,"endTime":1833.39,"body":"I think you mentioned in that"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1828.83,"endTime":1833.39,"body":"2020 piece, it's about 11% – it"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1833.39,"endTime":1837.35,"body":"kind of seems like standing with"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1833.39,"endTime":1837.35,"body":"Ukraine and Ukrainians, in the"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1837.35,"endTime":1840.65,"body":"broadest possible sense, would"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1837.35,"endTime":1840.65,"body":"mean supporting Ukrainian"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1840.65,"endTime":1844.4,"body":"workers in other countries. So,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1840.65,"endTime":1844.4,"body":"making sure that they have job"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1844.4,"endTime":1847.88,"body":"security, and that they're paid"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1844.4,"endTime":1847.88,"body":"well, because otherwise, we're"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1847.88,"endTime":1849.86,"body":"just kind of hypocrites."},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1849.0,"endTime":1852.45,"body":"Yeah, I agree"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1849.0,"endTime":1852.45,"body":"with you and, thinking about the"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1852.45,"endTime":1857.16,"body":"future – and even in terms of"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1852.45,"endTime":1857.16,"body":"temporary protection – we really"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1857.16,"endTime":1860.04,"body":"should ask, \"okay, on what"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1857.16,"endTime":1860.04,"body":"conditions people are being"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1860.07,"endTime":1863.55,"body":"welcomed?\" They're also being"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1860.07,"endTime":1863.55,"body":"welcomed into these gradations"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1863.55,"endTime":1867.03,"body":"of Europeanness and gradations"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1863.55,"endTime":1867.03,"body":"of whiteness, because people"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1867.03,"endTime":1871.41,"body":"will have to make their living"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1867.03,"endTime":1871.41,"body":"on their own very quickly, and"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1871.41,"endTime":1876.03,"body":"contrary to our common vision of"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1871.41,"endTime":1876.03,"body":"refugees as some kind of"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1876.03,"endTime":1880.53,"body":"recipients of humanitarian"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1876.03,"endTime":1880.53,"body":"support. Actually, also, before"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1880.53,"endTime":1884.13,"body":"the war in Ukraine, all sorts of"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1880.53,"endTime":1884.13,"body":"refugees were always included"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1884.13,"endTime":1888.48,"body":"into raced labour markets as"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1884.13,"endTime":1888.48,"body":"precarious and cheap labour. So,"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1889.02,"endTime":1891.78,"body":"we should be really asking"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1889.02,"endTime":1891.78,"body":"ourselves, what does it mean,"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1891.78,"endTime":1894.48,"body":"\"we stand with Ukraine\"? Well,"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1891.78,"endTime":1894.48,"body":"we should be standing with the"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1894.48,"endTime":1898.77,"body":"Ukrainian workers. But, if we"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1894.48,"endTime":1898.77,"body":"talk about standing with"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1898.77,"endTime":1901.47,"body":"Ukraine, then we should also be"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1898.77,"endTime":1901.47,"body":"talking about the question of"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1901.47,"endTime":1905.25,"body":"Ukrainian debt; because, as with"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1901.47,"endTime":1905.25,"body":"other Eastern European"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1905.25,"endTime":1910.26,"body":"countries, after the collapse of"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1905.25,"endTime":1910.26,"body":"the Soviet Union, many countries"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1910.26,"endTime":1913.53,"body":"had to take a lot of"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1910.26,"endTime":1913.53,"body":"International Monetary Fund"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1913.56,"endTime":1919.8,"body":"loans, which placed strict"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1913.56,"endTime":1919.8,"body":"limits on social spending. And,"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1920.16,"endTime":1925.02,"body":"as a result of that, Ukraine"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1920.16,"endTime":1925.02,"body":"became heavily indebted. So, if"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1925.02,"endTime":1927.42,"body":"we want to stand with Ukraine,"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1925.02,"endTime":1927.42,"body":"we should also be talking about"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1927.42,"endTime":1930.96,"body":"the question of Ukrainian debt"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":1927.42,"endTime":1930.96,"body":"and cancelling Ukrainian debt."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1931.55,"endTime":1934.4,"body":"Thanks,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1931.55,"endTime":1934.4,"body":"Daria. So, we're getting to the"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1934.4,"endTime":1938.51,"body":"part of our show, now, where we"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1934.4,"endTime":1938.51,"body":"like to grab something we rarely"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1938.51,"endTime":1941.54,"body":"stop to question, and we'll kind"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1938.51,"endTime":1941.54,"body":"of tear it apart."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1941.72,"endTime":1943.73,"body":"And today, we"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1941.72,"endTime":1943.73,"body":"thought we're talking about"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1943.73,"endTime":1947.66,"body":"something we take for granted so"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1943.73,"endTime":1947.66,"body":"badly that, to be honest, we"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1947.69,"endTime":1952.37,"body":"almost didn't think of it at"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1947.69,"endTime":1952.37,"body":"all. And that is borders. So, if"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1952.37,"endTime":1955.31,"body":"you're pretty privileged,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1952.37,"endTime":1955.31,"body":"borders probably aren't"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1955.31,"endTime":1958.76,"body":"something that you think about"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1955.31,"endTime":1958.76,"body":"every day. Perhaps it's only"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1958.76,"endTime":1960.83,"body":"something that you think about"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1958.76,"endTime":1960.83,"body":"when you have to go through"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1960.83,"endTime":1964.67,"body":"passport control. Or if you get"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1960.83,"endTime":1964.67,"body":"annoyed when the body scanner"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1964.67,"endTime":1968.99,"body":"beeps at you at security. I"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1964.67,"endTime":1968.99,"body":"mean, I remember being totally"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1968.99,"endTime":1972.08,"body":"shocked when, years ago, I"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1968.99,"endTime":1972.08,"body":"entered Israel from Jordan and"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1972.08,"endTime":1976.28,"body":"was held for four hours while"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1972.08,"endTime":1976.28,"body":"they questioned me. I had never"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1976.28,"endTime":1980.03,"body":"ever experienced something like"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1976.28,"endTime":1980.03,"body":"that before. But, for other"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1980.03,"endTime":1982.64,"body":"people, that's just their normal"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1980.03,"endTime":1982.64,"body":"reality."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1982.73,"endTime":1985.1,"body":"Yeah. I"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1982.73,"endTime":1985.1,"body":"guess many of us are educated to"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1985.1,"endTime":1988.34,"body":"just think that borders are"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1985.1,"endTime":1988.34,"body":"something that exists around the"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1988.34,"endTime":1992.3,"body":"edges of countries – they're"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1988.34,"endTime":1992.3,"body":"those dotted lines on maps that"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1992.3,"endTime":1996.2,"body":"stir our imaginations as kids,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1992.3,"endTime":1996.2,"body":"the things people cross on films"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1996.2,"endTime":2000.1,"body":"like \"The Sound of Music\". But,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1996.2,"endTime":2000.1,"body":"Daria, how would you define a"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2000.1,"endTime":2004.81,"body":"border? Sociologists see them as"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2000.1,"endTime":2004.81,"body":"a bit more slippery than say"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2004.81,"endTime":2006.04,"body":"cartographers do."},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2006.52,"endTime":2009.01,"body":"Yeah, I agree"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2006.52,"endTime":2009.01,"body":"that, quite often, we tend to"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2009.01,"endTime":2013.54,"body":"think about borders as something"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2009.01,"endTime":2013.54,"body":"territorially fixed, as a kind"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2013.54,"endTime":2018.22,"body":"of a line that divides the"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2013.54,"endTime":2018.22,"body":"nation-states. But we can also"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2018.22,"endTime":2020.95,"body":"think about borders more"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2018.22,"endTime":2020.95,"body":"critically, and think about"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2020.95,"endTime":2026.74,"body":"borders as a series of practices"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2020.95,"endTime":2026.74,"body":"that involve everyday. And we"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2026.74,"endTime":2029.86,"body":"can talk about everyday"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2026.74,"endTime":2029.86,"body":"bordering as the processes that"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2030.07,"endTime":2033.43,"body":"kind of produce this everyday"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2030.07,"endTime":2033.43,"body":"hierarchies and stop people's"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2033.43,"endTime":2036.4,"body":"movements in the everyday life,"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2033.43,"endTime":2036.4,"body":"while already being in the"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2036.4,"endTime":2040.6,"body":"national territory. But also we"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2036.4,"endTime":2040.6,"body":"can extend the concept of the"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2040.6,"endTime":2045.58,"body":"border and to think about how EU"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2040.6,"endTime":2045.58,"body":"borders become externalised in"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2045.58,"endTime":2049.15,"body":"the African continent, for"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2045.58,"endTime":2049.15,"body":"example, through colonial"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2049.15,"endTime":2053.98,"body":"practices, and how the European"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2049.15,"endTime":2053.98,"body":"border regime operates, like,"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2053.98,"endTime":2058.96,"body":"deep into the African continent,"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2053.98,"endTime":2058.96,"body":"for instance, and how the"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2058.96,"endTime":2064.54,"body":"borders there operate even"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2058.96,"endTime":2064.54,"body":"before the movement starts. But,"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2064.54,"endTime":2068.83,"body":"talking about everyday forms of"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2064.54,"endTime":2068.83,"body":"bordering, we can also think"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2068.83,"endTime":2075.55,"body":"about how borders become enacted"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2068.83,"endTime":2075.55,"body":"by police checks in how people"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2075.55,"endTime":2079.18,"body":"can be asked to show their"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2075.55,"endTime":2079.18,"body":"documents and residence permits,"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2079.54,"endTime":2083.92,"body":"or how, for example, having"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2079.54,"endTime":2083.92,"body":"access to the banking system and"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2083.92,"endTime":2088.84,"body":"opening a bank account, having"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2083.92,"endTime":2088.84,"body":"access to housing; how these are"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2088.84,"endTime":2091.51,"body":"also forms of everyday"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2088.84,"endTime":2091.51,"body":"bordering, while already being"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2091.51,"endTime":2093.31,"body":"in the territory of the"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2091.51,"endTime":2093.31,"body":"nation-state."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2093.909,"endTime":2096.249,"body":"That concept"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2093.909,"endTime":2096.249,"body":"of everyday bordering is at the"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2096.249,"endTime":2099.879,"body":"heart of work by people like"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2096.249,"endTime":2099.879,"body":"Nira Yuval-Davis, Georgie"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2099.879,"endTime":2103.989,"body":"Wemyss, Kathryn Cassidy and"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2099.879,"endTime":2103.989,"body":"others. Do you have examples of"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2103.989,"endTime":2107.139,"body":"it from your own work, from"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2103.989,"endTime":2107.139,"body":"places like Finland say?"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2107.2,"endTime":2108.88,"body":"Well,"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2107.2,"endTime":2108.88,"body":"particularly in the context of"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2108.88,"endTime":2111.91,"body":"Finland, you can't do anything"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2108.88,"endTime":2111.91,"body":"if you don't have a social"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2111.91,"endTime":2115.93,"body":"security number, or if you don't"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2111.91,"endTime":2115.93,"body":"have a bank account, because ..."},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2116.02,"endTime":2120.67,"body":"For instance, if you want to"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2116.02,"endTime":2120.67,"body":"sign up to visit a doctor, you"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2120.67,"endTime":2124.99,"body":"should have a so-called banking"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2120.67,"endTime":2124.99,"body":"codes to identify yourself. But"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2124.99,"endTime":2128.17,"body":"you can't have access to this"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2124.99,"endTime":2128.17,"body":"banking codes if you don't have"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2128.17,"endTime":2130.93,"body":"a certain type of a residence"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2128.17,"endTime":2130.93,"body":"permit or if you're not staying"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2130.93,"endTime":2136.18,"body":"in Finland permanently. So, we"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2130.93,"endTime":2136.18,"body":"can see here how, even if you"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2136.18,"endTime":2139.39,"body":"are already in the territory of"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2136.18,"endTime":2139.39,"body":"Finland, and even if you have"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2139.42,"endTime":2142.06,"body":"all the required documents, or"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2139.42,"endTime":2142.06,"body":"even if you're staying with a"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2142.06,"endTime":2146.77,"body":"tourist visa, for instance, yet,"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2142.06,"endTime":2146.77,"body":"you don't have access to certain"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2146.77,"endTime":2151.6,"body":"forms of kind of very essential"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2146.77,"endTime":2151.6,"body":"and normalised practices, like"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2151.63,"endTime":2153.94,"body":"going to visit a doctor, for"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2151.63,"endTime":2153.94,"body":"instance."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2154.03,"endTime":2155.77,"body":"It's really"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2154.03,"endTime":2155.77,"body":"interesting, this conversation,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2155.77,"endTime":2158.5,"body":"Daria, because, here in"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2155.77,"endTime":2158.5,"body":"Australia, when I think of"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2158.5,"endTime":2162.34,"body":"bordering, my mind immediately"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2158.5,"endTime":2162.34,"body":"jumps to the hard border. And I"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2162.34,"endTime":2164.68,"body":"think that's what lots of people"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2162.34,"endTime":2164.68,"body":"think about when they think of"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2164.68,"endTime":2168.01,"body":"Australia, because everyone"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2164.68,"endTime":2168.01,"body":"who's tried to seek asylum in"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2168.01,"endTime":2171.61,"body":"Australia and have come by boat"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2168.01,"endTime":2171.61,"body":"– since, I think about 2013 –"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2171.64,"endTime":2173.92,"body":"have been told that they're"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2171.64,"endTime":2173.92,"body":"never going to get permanent"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2173.92,"endTime":2178.15,"body":"residency, they can apply for"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2173.92,"endTime":2178.15,"body":"refugee status, and then they're"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2178.15,"endTime":2182.29,"body":"just put on this cycle of"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2178.15,"endTime":2182.29,"body":"temporary protection visa after"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2182.29,"endTime":2184.75,"body":"temporary protection visa that"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2182.29,"endTime":2184.75,"body":"they have to keep reapplying"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2184.75,"endTime":2188.26,"body":"for. It's just this kind of"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2184.75,"endTime":2188.26,"body":"awful, perpetual insecurity."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2188.86,"endTime":2192.19,"body":"But, I mean, what you're"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2188.86,"endTime":2192.19,"body":"describing is really making me"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2192.19,"endTime":2196.09,"body":"think about how border policy"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2192.19,"endTime":2196.09,"body":"and surveillance follows people"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2196.09,"endTime":2200.32,"body":"around in their everyday lives."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2196.09,"endTime":2200.32,"body":"And, I guess, what you're saying"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2200.32,"endTime":2203.92,"body":"is that it could actually rip up"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2200.32,"endTime":2203.92,"body":"the social fabric. Do you think"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2203.92,"endTime":2206.5,"body":"that that happens in Finland?"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2207.73,"endTime":2211.3,"body":"Certainly. And"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2207.73,"endTime":2211.3,"body":"in the context of Finland, there"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2211.3,"endTime":2214.51,"body":"is a tendency, of course, to"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2211.3,"endTime":2214.51,"body":"discuss the state in relation to"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2214.51,"endTime":2219.07,"body":"the welfare state, and to"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2214.51,"endTime":2219.07,"body":"discuss the high trust in the"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2219.07,"endTime":2223.66,"body":"state. But, actually, if we talk"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2219.07,"endTime":2223.66,"body":"to non-white people or to"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2223.66,"endTime":2226.45,"body":"migrants, then we see a very"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2223.66,"endTime":2226.45,"body":"different picture of ... in"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2226.45,"endTime":2230.35,"body":"terms of trust to the state."},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2226.45,"endTime":2230.35,"body":"Because everyday forms of"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2230.35,"endTime":2234.58,"body":"bordering – like police checks"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2230.35,"endTime":2234.58,"body":"and how Roma people, for"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2234.58,"endTime":2239.38,"body":"example, are being followed in"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2234.58,"endTime":2239.38,"body":"the shops through this racial"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2239.38,"endTime":2244.15,"body":"profiling – how these forms of"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2239.38,"endTime":2244.15,"body":"everyday bordering are really"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2244.15,"endTime":2248.5,"body":"disrupting people's trust in the"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2244.15,"endTime":2248.5,"body":"state. And quite often, we tend"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2248.5,"endTime":2251.26,"body":"to think of the trust in the"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2248.5,"endTime":2251.26,"body":"welfare state as very"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2251.26,"endTime":2254.17,"body":"normalised, that \"okay,"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2251.26,"endTime":2254.17,"body":"everybody believes in the Nordic"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2254.17,"endTime":2256.6,"body":"welfare state\". Well, but"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2254.17,"endTime":2256.6,"body":"actually it doesn't work for"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2256.6,"endTime":2259.69,"body":"everybody. It doesn't work for"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2256.6,"endTime":2259.69,"body":"all the people in the same ways."},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2260.38,"endTime":2264.37,"body":"And, of course, it is tied to"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2260.38,"endTime":2264.37,"body":"questions of race in particular"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2264.37,"endTime":2264.79,"body":"ways."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2265.05,"endTime":2267.12,"body":"Okay, so,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2265.05,"endTime":2267.12,"body":"we've been talking about some"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2267.12,"endTime":2271.8,"body":"pretty heavy stuff today. But"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2267.12,"endTime":2271.8,"body":"before we go, just to wind down"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2271.8,"endTime":2275.31,"body":"a bit, we wanted to each share"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2271.8,"endTime":2275.31,"body":"our recommendations for"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2275.31,"endTime":2278.91,"body":"something from what you call /"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2275.31,"endTime":2278.91,"body":"might call \"pop culture\" –"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2279.24,"endTime":2283.47,"body":"something that speaks to this"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2279.24,"endTime":2283.47,"body":"theme of security; a movie, a"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2283.47,"endTime":2287.79,"body":"book, an artwork, a song,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2283.47,"endTime":2287.79,"body":"something you've seen on social"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2287.79,"endTime":2292.59,"body":"media? Whatever. So, Rosie, what"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2287.79,"endTime":2292.59,"body":"would be your recommendation?"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2292.59,"endTime":2296.19,"body":"Okay, mine is"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2292.59,"endTime":2296.19,"body":"probably a little bit obvious."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2296.28,"endTime":2299.46,"body":"But I'm going to say \"The"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2296.28,"endTime":2299.46,"body":"Mauritanian\" movie with Benedict"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2299.46,"endTime":2303.18,"body":"Cumberbatch. So, it's just your"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2299.46,"endTime":2303.18,"body":"kind of classic story about the"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2303.18,"endTime":2307.26,"body":"overreach of the state, taking"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2303.18,"endTime":2307.26,"body":"their national security"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2307.26,"endTime":2311.64,"body":"imperative way too far and"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2307.26,"endTime":2311.64,"body":"persecuting someone that they"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2311.67,"endTime":2313.92,"body":"don't have enough evidence for."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2311.67,"endTime":2313.92,"body":"So, lots of themes is like"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2313.92,"endTime":2318.3,"body":"extradition and all of that kind"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2313.92,"endTime":2318.3,"body":"of stuff. It's not very"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2318.3,"endTime":2320.34,"body":"cheerful. Alexis, what about"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2318.3,"endTime":2320.34,"body":"you?"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2321.42,"endTime":2324.03,"body":"Actually,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2321.42,"endTime":2324.03,"body":"this theme kind of like, threw"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2324.03,"endTime":2327.81,"body":"me into a very nostalgic mood"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2324.03,"endTime":2327.81,"body":"and made me think of Rage"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2327.81,"endTime":2330.3,"body":"Against the Machine, which I"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2327.81,"endTime":2330.3,"body":"listened to a lot, like, in my"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2330.3,"endTime":2334.5,"body":"teen years; and the song"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2330.3,"endTime":2334.5,"body":"\"Without a Face\". So, that's a"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2334.5,"endTime":2339.24,"body":"song that speaks to, like, the"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2334.5,"endTime":2339.24,"body":"migration and borders, Mexico"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2339.27,"endTime":2344.58,"body":"and the South of the US. But"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2339.27,"endTime":2344.58,"body":"yeah, in that particular song,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2344.61,"endTime":2348.66,"body":"the lyrics start off with a \"got"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2344.61,"endTime":2348.66,"body":"no card so I got no soul, life"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2348.66,"endTime":2352.53,"body":"is prison, no parole, no"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2348.66,"endTime":2352.53,"body":"control\". And that really, like,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2352.53,"endTime":2355.77,"body":"yeah ... it really linked to"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2352.53,"endTime":2355.77,"body":"that theme, and it made me"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2355.77,"endTime":2360.0,"body":"remember how, like, yeah, during"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2355.77,"endTime":2360.0,"body":"those teen years when those were"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2360.0,"endTime":2364.14,"body":"things that I hadn't really"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2360.0,"endTime":2364.14,"body":"thought about; that there was a"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2364.14,"endTime":2367.92,"body":"lot of political, maybe,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2364.14,"endTime":2367.92,"body":"reflections, or a lot of"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2367.92,"endTime":2373.59,"body":"critical reflections that came"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2367.92,"endTime":2373.59,"body":"from songs like that. Daria, am"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2373.59,"endTime":2376.59,"body":"I right that you also wanted to"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2373.59,"endTime":2376.59,"body":"recommend a song?"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2376.96,"endTime":2380.05,"body":"Yeah, I wanted"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2376.96,"endTime":2380.05,"body":"to recommend a song by Kae"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2380.05,"endTime":2382.06,"body":"Tempest. I've been listening a"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2380.05,"endTime":2382.06,"body":"lot to their music lately. And I"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2382.06,"endTime":2383.11,"body":"particularly like the song"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2382.06,"endTime":2383.11,"body":"called \"People's Faces\". It's a"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2383.11,"endTime":2385.99,"body":"little bit sad, maybe, but I"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2383.11,"endTime":2385.99,"body":"don't know, I wouldn't maybe"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2386.2,"endTime":2393.67,"body":"define it as sad, but I think"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2386.2,"endTime":2393.67,"body":"it's the song about struggle and"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2393.67,"endTime":2398.35,"body":"hope, and I like the poetry"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2393.67,"endTime":2398.35,"body":"there. It's, well, Kae Tempest"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2398.35,"endTime":2401.62,"body":"sings, \"too much depends on the"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2398.35,"endTime":2401.62,"body":"fragile wages, and the extortion"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2401.62,"endTime":2406.15,"body":"of rents here.\" And then, they"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2401.62,"endTime":2406.15,"body":"also say that \"the old ways need"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2406.15,"endTime":2409.6,"body":"to end\", and \"did you ever"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2406.15,"endTime":2409.6,"body":"wonder if all these could be"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2409.6,"endTime":2413.86,"body":"done differently?\" And every"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2409.6,"endTime":2413.86,"body":"time I listen to this song I ask"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2413.86,"endTime":2418.96,"body":"myself this question – could all"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2413.86,"endTime":2418.96,"body":"this be done differently? And I"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2418.96,"endTime":2422.29,"body":"think that that's the question"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2418.96,"endTime":2422.29,"body":"we should be asking ourselves on"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2422.29,"endTime":2426.34,"body":"a daily basis, and continue our"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2422.29,"endTime":2426.34,"body":"sociological thinking and our"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2426.34,"endTime":2426.91,"body":"struggle."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2427.27,"endTime":2429.4,"body":"Thank you so"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2427.27,"endTime":2429.4,"body":"much, Daria. You have given us"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2429.43,"endTime":2433.21,"body":"so much to think about for"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2429.43,"endTime":2433.21,"body":"today. And I think Alexis and I"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2433.21,"endTime":2436.99,"body":"are going to have a lot to chat"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2433.21,"endTime":2436.99,"body":"about later. But we'll say"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2436.99,"endTime":2437.86,"body":"goodbye here."},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2438.01,"endTime":2441.28,"body":"Thank you. Thank"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2438.01,"endTime":2441.28,"body":"you for inviting me here. It was"},{"speaker":"Daria Krivonos","startTime":2441.28,"endTime":2442.09,"body":"great to talk to you."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2447.85,"endTime":2449.5,"body":"Well, that's"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2447.85,"endTime":2449.5,"body":"it for this month. We'll make"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2449.5,"endTime":2452.38,"body":"sure all of those"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2449.5,"endTime":2452.38,"body":"recommendations and more are in"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2452.38,"endTime":2455.95,"body":"our episode's notes, and over on"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2452.38,"endTime":2455.95,"body":"the podcast page at"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2455.98,"endTime":2460.51,"body":"thesociologicalreview.org."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2455.98,"endTime":2460.51,"body":"Rosie, what I'll take away from"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2460.51,"endTime":2466.18,"body":"today is a question that Daria"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2460.51,"endTime":2466.18,"body":"asked us, right – whose security"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2466.18,"endTime":2469.84,"body":"and whose insecurity? And I"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2466.18,"endTime":2469.84,"body":"think that, really, when we were"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2469.84,"endTime":2472.51,"body":"focusing on this question of"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2469.84,"endTime":2472.51,"body":"\"who?\", it really brought it"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2472.51,"endTime":2476.17,"body":"back to the humans and the"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2472.51,"endTime":2476.17,"body":"people and the experiences. So,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2476.17,"endTime":2481.09,"body":"I really ... that really gave me"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2476.17,"endTime":2481.09,"body":"a lot to think about. What about"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2481.09,"endTime":2481.39,"body":"you?"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2481.72,"endTime":2486.16,"body":"Look, I mean, I"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2481.72,"endTime":2486.16,"body":"was gonna say that the thing I'm"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2486.16,"endTime":2490.57,"body":"going to be thinking about the"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2486.16,"endTime":2490.57,"body":"most is the idea that someone's"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2490.6,"endTime":2494.5,"body":"security depends on someone"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2490.6,"endTime":2494.5,"body":"else's insecurity. But,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2494.5,"endTime":2498.52,"body":"actually, what's really nice is"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2494.5,"endTime":2498.52,"body":"– and I guess it kind of ties"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2498.52,"endTime":2501.82,"body":"nicely in with that – is right"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2498.52,"endTime":2501.82,"body":"at the very end of her"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2501.82,"endTime":2506.38,"body":"recommendation of Kae Tempest's"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2501.82,"endTime":2506.38,"body":"song, \"People's Faces\", and the"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2506.38,"endTime":2510.58,"body":"question \"can we do this"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2506.38,"endTime":2510.58,"body":"differently?\" I think that's ..."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2510.85,"endTime":2511.78,"body":"that's pretty great."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2512.14,"endTime":2515.29,"body":"Yeah. And we"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2512.14,"endTime":2515.29,"body":"also talked about, like, borders"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2515.29,"endTime":2519.31,"body":"and boundaries. I'm pretty sure"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2515.29,"endTime":2519.31,"body":"that that will be coming up next"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2519.31,"endTime":2523.09,"body":"month, also, when we turn to the"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2519.31,"endTime":2523.09,"body":"theme of bodies."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2523.18,"endTime":2526.0,"body":"Ooh, I'm excited"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2523.18,"endTime":2526.0,"body":"about that one. So, if you've"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2526.0,"endTime":2530.26,"body":"enjoyed listening to Uncommon"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2526.0,"endTime":2530.26,"body":"Sense, please tap follow and"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2530.26,"endTime":2533.74,"body":"rate or review us in whatever"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2530.26,"endTime":2533.74,"body":"app you're using. And do share"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2533.74,"endTime":2535.27,"body":"us with your friends and family."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2535.75,"endTime":2537.97,"body":"Our"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2535.75,"endTime":2537.97,"body":"executive producer was Alice"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2537.97,"endTime":2541.9,"body":"Bloch. Our sound engineer was"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2537.97,"endTime":2541.9,"body":"Dave Crackles. Thanks for"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2541.9,"endTime":2542.41,"body":"listening."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2542.59,"endTime":2543.19,"body":"Bye!"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2543.22,"endTime":2543.76,"body":"Bye."}]}