{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":7.92,"endTime":10.56,"body":"Hi, and"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":7.92,"endTime":10.56,"body":"welcome back to Uncommon Sense"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":10.59,"endTime":13.65,"body":"from The Sociological Review."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":10.59,"endTime":13.65,"body":"I'm Alexis Hieu Truong, in"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":13.65,"endTime":14.52,"body":"Ottawa, Canada."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":15.42,"endTime":17.91,"body":"And I'm Rosie"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":15.42,"endTime":17.91,"body":"Hancock, in Sydney, Australia."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":18.6,"endTime":21.15,"body":"As ever, we're all about seeing"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":18.6,"endTime":21.15,"body":"our world afresh through the"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":21.15,"endTime":24.45,"body":"eyes of sociologists, and"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":21.15,"endTime":24.45,"body":"showing that you really don't"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":24.45,"endTime":26.4,"body":"have to be a sociologist to"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":24.45,"endTime":26.4,"body":"think like one."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":27.39,"endTime":29.34,"body":"Each month,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":27.39,"endTime":29.34,"body":"we take a theme that seems"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":29.34,"endTime":32.43,"body":"straightforward and take a"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":29.34,"endTime":32.43,"body":"sideways look at it. Today,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":32.79,"endTime":36.36,"body":"\"bodies\" – start talking about"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":32.79,"endTime":36.36,"body":"that and you end up going pretty"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":36.36,"endTime":40.77,"body":"far pretty fast, into questions"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":36.36,"endTime":40.77,"body":"of law and ethics, geography and"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":40.77,"endTime":45.72,"body":"space, property and power, art,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":40.77,"endTime":45.72,"body":"representation. And then there's"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":45.75,"endTime":50.1,"body":"that use of the word \"body\" for"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":45.75,"endTime":50.1,"body":"things like \"body politic\", or a"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":50.13,"endTime":54.33,"body":"\"body of work\", or \"bodies of"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":50.13,"endTime":54.33,"body":"water\", which we'll be talking"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":54.33,"endTime":56.07,"body":"about in a moment, actually."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":56.22,"endTime":58.68,"body":"That's so"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":56.22,"endTime":58.68,"body":"interesting, Alexis, because"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":58.77,"endTime":62.49,"body":"suddenly, we're talking about"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":58.77,"endTime":62.49,"body":"bodies and it's not humans. I"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":62.49,"endTime":66.24,"body":"thought only humans had bodies,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":62.49,"endTime":66.24,"body":"or maybe animals ... What"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":66.24,"endTime":70.17,"body":"actually are the limits of a"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":66.24,"endTime":70.17,"body":"body? I have to say, when I"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":70.17,"endTime":72.84,"body":"first heard that we were"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":70.17,"endTime":72.84,"body":"recording on bodies, I thought"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":72.84,"endTime":75.81,"body":"about the fact that, as I've"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":72.84,"endTime":75.81,"body":"mentioned before, I've recently"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":75.81,"endTime":79.92,"body":"had a child. And I've really"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":75.81,"endTime":79.92,"body":"grappled with this idea that, if"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":79.92,"endTime":83.67,"body":"you give birth, you carry your"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":79.92,"endTime":83.67,"body":"child within and then without"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":83.67,"endTime":87.84,"body":"you – in both senses of that"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":83.67,"endTime":87.84,"body":"word. There's sort of part of"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":87.84,"endTime":92.7,"body":"your body, but existing outside"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":87.84,"endTime":92.7,"body":"of it, too, as well. It's very"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":92.7,"endTime":93.24,"body":"bizarre."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":94.5,"endTime":96.6,"body":"Yeah, the"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":94.5,"endTime":96.6,"body":"limits of the body are something"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":96.6,"endTime":99.63,"body":"that I've thought about a lot"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":96.6,"endTime":99.63,"body":"over the years. Not necessarily"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":99.63,"endTime":103.8,"body":"because of rising talk of"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":99.63,"endTime":103.8,"body":"transhumanism – people seeking"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":103.8,"endTime":107.4,"body":"immortality and so on – but"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":103.8,"endTime":107.4,"body":"simply because I'm diabetic and,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":107.4,"endTime":112.53,"body":"since 2018, have an insulin pump"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":107.4,"endTime":112.53,"body":"and a glucose sensor that are"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":112.53,"endTime":117.0,"body":"plugged into me like some kind"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":112.53,"endTime":117.0,"body":"of cyborg. And, I've gone"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":117.0,"endTime":120.12,"body":"through different stages of"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":117.0,"endTime":120.12,"body":"seeing it as equipment that's"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":120.15,"endTime":123.57,"body":"distinct from me, or something"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":120.15,"endTime":123.57,"body":"that's really become a part of"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":123.57,"endTime":127.8,"body":"me, given that it's giving me"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":123.57,"endTime":127.8,"body":"vital information and taking"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":127.83,"endTime":130.59,"body":"actually decisions about the"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":127.83,"endTime":130.59,"body":"medicine it's giving me – the"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":130.59,"endTime":134.13,"body":"insulin it's giving me – so, I"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":130.59,"endTime":134.13,"body":"get, like, this question of,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":134.13,"endTime":137.91,"body":"like, this body and it's"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":134.13,"endTime":137.91,"body":"techno-extensions, like, is it"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":137.91,"endTime":141.69,"body":"mine or is it me? And I mean,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":137.91,"endTime":141.69,"body":"that really speaks to the"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":141.69,"endTime":146.58,"body":"question of whether we have or"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":141.69,"endTime":146.58,"body":"we are bodies too, right?"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":146.58,"endTime":149.22,"body":"Yeah, well, I"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":146.58,"endTime":149.22,"body":"mean, all kinds of thinkers have"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":149.25,"endTime":153.54,"body":"tried to define and discuss the"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":149.25,"endTime":153.54,"body":"body and its limits. You could"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":153.54,"endTime":157.62,"body":"[look] way back to Descartes on"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":153.54,"endTime":157.62,"body":"the mind-body split, Foucault on"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":157.65,"endTime":162.36,"body":"discipline, Sylvia Federici on"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":157.65,"endTime":162.36,"body":"the body and capitalism, Donna"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":162.36,"endTime":166.68,"body":"Haraway's cyborg manifesto, bell"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":162.36,"endTime":166.68,"body":"hooks' critique of the video for"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":166.8,"endTime":170.1,"body":"Beyoncé's Lemonade ... I could"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":166.8,"endTime":170.1,"body":"kind of keep rattling people"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":170.1,"endTime":171.09,"body":"off, but I won't."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":171.75,"endTime":174.99,"body":"Indeed. And"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":171.75,"endTime":174.99,"body":"actually, today we're talking to"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":174.99,"endTime":178.47,"body":"a sociologist whose work centres"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":174.99,"endTime":178.47,"body":"on the body. She's researched"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":178.47,"endTime":182.58,"body":"swimming bodies, unwell bodies,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":178.47,"endTime":182.58,"body":"walking bodies, and more. She's"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":182.58,"endTime":185.76,"body":"Charlotte Bates, based at"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":182.58,"endTime":185.76,"body":"Cardiff University in Wales. Hi,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":185.76,"endTime":186.21,"body":"Charlotte."},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":186.24,"endTime":188.22,"body":"Hi, it's really"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":186.24,"endTime":188.22,"body":"lovely to be here with you."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":188.25,"endTime":191.16,"body":"Hi, Charlotte."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":188.25,"endTime":191.16,"body":"And I also have to say thanks so"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":191.16,"endTime":194.52,"body":"much for bearing with us"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":191.16,"endTime":194.52,"body":"because, very aptly for the"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":194.55,"endTime":198.24,"body":"episode on bodies, we have had"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":194.55,"endTime":198.24,"body":"to postpone recording this"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":198.24,"endTime":202.59,"body":"episode twice, because of"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":198.24,"endTime":202.59,"body":"illness. And I mean, we're gonna"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":202.59,"endTime":206.28,"body":"go on and talk about illness"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":202.59,"endTime":206.28,"body":"later on in the episode. But"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":206.31,"endTime":211.2,"body":"before we get there, I actually"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":206.31,"endTime":211.2,"body":"wanted to start out by pointing"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":211.2,"endTime":214.77,"body":"out that you started in"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":211.2,"endTime":214.77,"body":"philosophy, and then I also"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":214.77,"endTime":217.89,"body":"started in philosophy, before we"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":214.77,"endTime":217.89,"body":"both turned to sociology later"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":217.89,"endTime":220.92,"body":"on – and I really liked that"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":217.89,"endTime":220.92,"body":"commonality that we have in our"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":220.92,"endTime":224.91,"body":"kind of academic background. And"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":220.92,"endTime":224.91,"body":"I'm curious, what did you notice"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":224.94,"endTime":228.21,"body":"about how those two different"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":224.94,"endTime":228.21,"body":"fields – sociology and"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":228.21,"endTime":231.63,"body":"philosophy – think about the"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":228.21,"endTime":231.63,"body":"body? And what was it that"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":231.63,"endTime":232.83,"body":"caught your imagination?"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":233.25,"endTime":235.17,"body":"Yeah, that's a"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":233.25,"endTime":235.17,"body":"really nice connection, Rosie."},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":235.26,"endTime":238.68,"body":"And there's a line that I kept"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":235.26,"endTime":238.68,"body":"encountering in philosophy and"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":238.68,"endTime":241.8,"body":"sociology and in literature,"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":238.68,"endTime":241.8,"body":"too, that we don't notice our"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":241.8,"endTime":244.56,"body":"bodies until they break. And I"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":241.8,"endTime":244.56,"body":"found this really interesting,"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":244.56,"endTime":247.74,"body":"but also quite puzzling. Because"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":244.56,"endTime":247.74,"body":"throughout my own life, I've had"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":247.74,"endTime":251.49,"body":"quite an acute awareness of my"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":247.74,"endTime":251.49,"body":"body and its limitations. The"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":251.49,"endTime":255.93,"body":"philosopher Havi Carel describes"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":251.49,"endTime":255.93,"body":"this as \"bodily doubt\". And that"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":255.93,"endTime":259.32,"body":"really, really resonated with"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":255.93,"endTime":259.32,"body":"me. I've never taken my body for"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":259.32,"endTime":262.74,"body":"granted in the way that some"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":259.32,"endTime":262.74,"body":"people supposedly do. But"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":262.74,"endTime":266.13,"body":"everyday embodied experiences –"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":262.74,"endTime":266.13,"body":"characterised by a sense of"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":266.13,"endTime":270.75,"body":"bodily certainty in philosophy"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":266.13,"endTime":270.75,"body":"and in sociology – and things"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":270.75,"endTime":272.37,"body":"like illness really disrupt it."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":272.94,"endTime":275.1,"body":"Can you"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":272.94,"endTime":275.1,"body":"elaborate a bit on that word –"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":275.13,"endTime":279.33,"body":"embodiment? I mean, typically,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":275.13,"endTime":279.33,"body":"if you say someone embodies"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":279.33,"endTime":282.51,"body":"something, it often means that"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":279.33,"endTime":282.51,"body":"they kind of carry or capture"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":282.51,"endTime":286.56,"body":"the essence of something. And in"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":282.51,"endTime":286.56,"body":"my own work on cosplay – aka"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":286.56,"endTime":291.06,"body":"costume play – in Tokyo, I've"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":286.56,"endTime":291.06,"body":"seen people dress up to embody"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":291.06,"endTime":294.84,"body":"not just different characters,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":291.06,"endTime":294.84,"body":"but also embody ideas of"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":294.84,"endTime":299.25,"body":"something like a train company,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":294.84,"endTime":299.25,"body":"or a country, or a convenience"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":299.25,"endTime":303.54,"body":"store – something that's known"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":299.25,"endTime":303.54,"body":"as gijinka. But this might be"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":303.54,"endTime":307.23,"body":"pretty far from the way that"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":303.54,"endTime":307.23,"body":"we're using the term"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":307.23,"endTime":310.47,"body":"\"embodiment\" here, or in"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":307.23,"endTime":310.47,"body":"sociology, right? Could you"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":310.47,"endTime":311.82,"body":"explain that a bit for us?"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":311.85,"endTime":313.53,"body":"It's a little"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":311.85,"endTime":313.53,"body":"bit different, but it's not all"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":313.53,"endTime":316.44,"body":"that far away. Because you're"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":313.53,"endTime":316.44,"body":"talking about dressing up your"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":316.44,"endTime":320.22,"body":"body, aren't you? And these are"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":316.44,"endTime":320.22,"body":"things that we do to our body to"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":320.22,"endTime":325.26,"body":"embody personas or characters,"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":320.22,"endTime":325.26,"body":"or to kind of sculpt ourselves"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":325.26,"endTime":329.28,"body":"in different ways. But the word"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":325.26,"endTime":329.28,"body":"\"embodiment\" is a really long"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":329.28,"endTime":332.28,"body":"word that just recognises the"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":329.28,"endTime":332.28,"body":"importance of the body. So,"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":332.28,"endTime":335.79,"body":"we're all embodied, and like the"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":332.28,"endTime":335.79,"body":"body this often gets forgotten."},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":336.39,"endTime":339.72,"body":"But it invites us, I think, to"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":336.39,"endTime":339.72,"body":"think and feel with our bodies,"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":340.29,"endTime":344.07,"body":"to consider how we do things to"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":340.29,"endTime":344.07,"body":"our bodies, like dress them up"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":344.1,"endTime":348.81,"body":"or do cosmetic surgery. But it"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":344.1,"endTime":348.81,"body":"also invites us to think about"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":348.84,"endTime":351.27,"body":"how we can do things with our"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":348.84,"endTime":351.27,"body":"bodies, like play different"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":351.27,"endTime":355.74,"body":"sports. But also how our bodies"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":351.27,"endTime":355.74,"body":"do things to us – how they act"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":355.74,"endTime":359.16,"body":"back on us – like when we become"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":355.74,"endTime":359.16,"body":"ill, or when we give birth."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":359.67,"endTime":361.05,"body":"You're right."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":359.67,"endTime":361.05,"body":"It's so interesting that you"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":361.05,"endTime":363.87,"body":"mentioned when you give birth."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":361.05,"endTime":363.87,"body":"Like we talked about in the"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":363.87,"endTime":366.9,"body":"intro, I've just had a child,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":363.87,"endTime":366.9,"body":"and this sense that, like, your"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":366.9,"endTime":371.16,"body":"body is doing something to you,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":366.9,"endTime":371.16,"body":"that you've completely ... like,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":371.16,"endTime":375.27,"body":"the act of becoming pregnant and"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":371.16,"endTime":375.27,"body":"carrying a child is just such"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":375.27,"endTime":379.53,"body":"this strange experience of"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":375.27,"endTime":379.53,"body":"completely losing control over"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":379.53,"endTime":384.03,"body":"your own body. Yeah, so I find"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":379.53,"endTime":384.03,"body":"it really interesting that you"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":384.03,"endTime":387.3,"body":"bring that up. And I mean,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":384.03,"endTime":387.3,"body":"there's this flawed distinction"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":387.3,"endTime":393.27,"body":"between the mind versus the"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":387.3,"endTime":393.27,"body":"body. And I kind of want to talk"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":393.27,"endTime":396.15,"body":"about that and see whether,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":393.27,"endTime":396.15,"body":"like, whether you think that"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":396.15,"endTime":399.93,"body":"it's not just a distinction, but"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":396.15,"endTime":399.93,"body":"also a hierarchy – like \"mind"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":399.93,"endTime":404.7,"body":"over matter\" and this idea that"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":399.93,"endTime":404.7,"body":"the mind is \"superior\" to the"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":404.79,"endTime":408.84,"body":"body, and that matters of the"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":404.79,"endTime":408.84,"body":"body are somehow \"base\"? So, I"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":408.84,"endTime":412.44,"body":"studied religion, and I think"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":408.84,"endTime":412.44,"body":"that, certainly in Christianity,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":412.71,"endTime":417.48,"body":"that idea that the spirit is"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":412.71,"endTime":417.48,"body":"exalted in the body is, you"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":417.48,"endTime":421.47,"body":"know, something, yeah, base – is"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":417.48,"endTime":421.47,"body":"really strong in some kind of"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":421.47,"endTime":424.56,"body":"historic Christian traditions."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":421.47,"endTime":424.56,"body":"And as an academic, I know I've"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":424.56,"endTime":428.28,"body":"been told more than once that I"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":424.56,"endTime":428.28,"body":"live the \"life of the mind\". And"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":428.28,"endTime":430.89,"body":"I'm not sure anyone would ever"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":428.28,"endTime":430.89,"body":"say you live the \"life of the"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":430.89,"endTime":431.76,"body":"body\", right?"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":432.21,"endTime":435.84,"body":"Yeah, it's just"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":432.21,"endTime":435.84,"body":"so ingrained in our society"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":435.87,"endTime":439.38,"body":"through Western philosophy,"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":435.87,"endTime":439.38,"body":"through religion, you know – you"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":439.38,"endTime":443.28,"body":"mentioned the Cartesian"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":439.38,"endTime":443.28,"body":"mind-body divide. When we talk"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":443.28,"endTime":446.07,"body":"about the senses, there is a"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":443.28,"endTime":446.07,"body":"kind of \"order\" of the senses –"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":446.1,"endTime":450.54,"body":"even that sight is better than"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":446.1,"endTime":450.54,"body":"other senses, which just isn't"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":450.54,"endTime":454.74,"body":"true. But it's just there, in"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":450.54,"endTime":454.74,"body":"all the ways we think."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":455.1,"endTime":457.41,"body":"I wonder,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":455.1,"endTime":457.41,"body":"can you tell us more about how"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":457.41,"endTime":460.56,"body":"sociologists in particular"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":457.41,"endTime":460.56,"body":"started thinking about the body"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":460.56,"endTime":464.55,"body":"towards the end of the last"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":460.56,"endTime":464.55,"body":"century? What was the kind of"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":464.55,"endTime":467.88,"body":"turn or what were they reacting"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":464.55,"endTime":467.88,"body":"to at that moment?"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":467.91,"endTime":470.52,"body":"Yes, so there"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":467.91,"endTime":470.52,"body":"was a kind of turn or rise of"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":470.52,"endTime":474.33,"body":"the body in the late 20th"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":470.52,"endTime":474.33,"body":"century, which was really"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":474.33,"endTime":477.18,"body":"informed by some of the"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":474.33,"endTime":477.18,"body":"theoretical work that Rosie"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":477.18,"endTime":480.63,"body":"mentioned in the introduction to"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":477.18,"endTime":480.63,"body":"this podcast. But, I think, that"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":480.63,"endTime":483.9,"body":"was the kind of that"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":480.63,"endTime":483.9,"body":"breakthrough moment that we've"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":483.9,"endTime":487.56,"body":"been talking about a little bit,"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":483.9,"endTime":487.56,"body":"where people recognised that"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":487.56,"endTime":491.76,"body":"bodies aren't simply biological"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":487.56,"endTime":491.76,"body":"and that this hierarchy maybe"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":491.76,"endTime":494.97,"body":"isn't right. So, we're not"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":491.76,"endTime":494.97,"body":"always white, we're not always"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":494.97,"endTime":496.95,"body":"male, we're not always"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":494.97,"endTime":496.95,"body":"heterosexual, we're not always"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":496.95,"endTime":500.49,"body":"able. And sociologists began to"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":496.95,"endTime":500.49,"body":"explore these more diverse"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":500.49,"endTime":504.0,"body":"bodies through the lenses of"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":500.49,"endTime":504.0,"body":"gender, class, race, sexuality,"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":504.0,"endTime":508.14,"body":"age, and disability. And a lot"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":504.0,"endTime":508.14,"body":"of this work began to really"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":508.14,"endTime":513.06,"body":"focus on how people live, and"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":508.14,"endTime":513.06,"body":"their lived, embodied and felt"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":513.09,"endTime":514.29,"body":"experiences."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":514.44,"endTime":516.63,"body":"Actually,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":514.44,"endTime":516.63,"body":"you and Rosie both talked about,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":516.63,"endTime":520.14,"body":"like, pregnancy, for example –"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":516.63,"endTime":520.14,"body":"like, the body doing something"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":520.62,"endTime":525.6,"body":"to us, right? And the cosplay"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":520.62,"endTime":525.6,"body":"kind of link that I made earlier"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":525.6,"endTime":528.21,"body":"was quite different, in the"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":525.6,"endTime":528.21,"body":"sense that we're doing something"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":528.21,"endTime":532.56,"body":"to the body, like costuming it"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":528.21,"endTime":532.56,"body":"or changing it in some way. And"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":532.56,"endTime":535.71,"body":"I feel a bit like that with"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":532.56,"endTime":535.71,"body":"insulin, right? So, my body"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":535.71,"endTime":539.37,"body":"can't go on without insulin, so"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":535.71,"endTime":539.37,"body":"I'm doing something and giving"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":539.37,"endTime":543.84,"body":"it a medication, right? So, can"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":539.37,"endTime":543.84,"body":"you elaborate a bit more on kind"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":543.84,"endTime":546.9,"body":"of the things that the body does"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":543.84,"endTime":546.9,"body":"to us? Or are there things that"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":546.9,"endTime":547.62,"body":"we do to the body?"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":547.62,"endTime":549.21,"body":"Yeah, I think"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":547.62,"endTime":549.21,"body":"that's a really important"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":549.45,"endTime":552.72,"body":"distinction within the sociology"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":549.45,"endTime":552.72,"body":"of the body. There are people"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":552.72,"endTime":555.9,"body":"that think about what we do to"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":552.72,"endTime":555.9,"body":"our bodies, which is one set of"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":555.9,"endTime":558.6,"body":"questions – so, you know, I"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":555.9,"endTime":558.6,"body":"talked earlier or mentioned"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":558.63,"endTime":561.96,"body":"cosmetic surgery. But there's"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":558.63,"endTime":561.96,"body":"also the way our bodies do"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":561.96,"endTime":566.43,"body":"things to us. So, we can think"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":561.96,"endTime":566.43,"body":"about the body as a commodity,"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":566.64,"endTime":570.18,"body":"as something that we can dress"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":566.64,"endTime":570.18,"body":"up and shape and make pretty in"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":570.18,"endTime":573.63,"body":"ways that we want to. But we can"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":570.18,"endTime":573.63,"body":"also think about the power that"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":573.63,"endTime":576.93,"body":"our bodies have over us to"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":573.63,"endTime":576.93,"body":"control our lives in different"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":576.93,"endTime":580.8,"body":"way, to make demands on us know,"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":576.93,"endTime":580.8,"body":"to need insulin. And I think"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":580.8,"endTime":581.88,"body":"those two are very different."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":582.18,"endTime":583.98,"body":"I mean, it's"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":582.18,"endTime":583.98,"body":"interesting, I guess, you could"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":584.04,"endTime":588.54,"body":"go that step further and talk"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":584.04,"endTime":588.54,"body":"about the people that are trying"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":588.54,"endTime":592.86,"body":"to transcend the \"confines\" of"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":588.54,"endTime":592.86,"body":"the body as well. So,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":592.86,"endTime":597.75,"body":"transhumanism, which is, you"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":592.86,"endTime":597.75,"body":"know ... let's actually not talk"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":597.75,"endTime":602.43,"body":"about them because those guys"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":597.75,"endTime":602.43,"body":"get enough attention. So, we've"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":602.43,"endTime":606.03,"body":"just been, you know, touching a"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":602.43,"endTime":606.03,"body":"little bit on Alexis and"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":606.03,"endTime":610.32,"body":"diabetes, and some of your"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":606.03,"endTime":610.32,"body":"earlier work was on illness, and"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":610.38,"endTime":613.59,"body":"that became your book, Vital"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":610.38,"endTime":613.59,"body":"Bodies. Could you tell me a bit"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":613.59,"endTime":616.77,"body":"more about your project? And,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":613.59,"endTime":616.77,"body":"like, your methods? What you"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":616.77,"endTime":620.55,"body":"wanted to explore? So, I think"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":616.77,"endTime":620.55,"body":"you were following ... was it 12"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":620.58,"endTime":623.79,"body":"people with various illnesses"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":620.58,"endTime":623.79,"body":"for a year? Am I on the right"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":623.79,"endTime":624.3,"body":"track here?"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":624.45,"endTime":626.55,"body":"Yeah, that's"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":624.45,"endTime":626.55,"body":"right. And it's really a story"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":626.55,"endTime":630.0,"body":"about 12 people just living"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":626.55,"endTime":630.0,"body":"their everyday lives. But these"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":630.0,"endTime":633.78,"body":"people were all living with a"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":630.0,"endTime":633.78,"body":"long-term condition, so, things"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":633.78,"endTime":637.68,"body":"like arthritis, asthma,"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":633.78,"endTime":637.68,"body":"diabetes, depression, chronic"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":637.68,"endTime":641.82,"body":"pain. And working with them over"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":637.68,"endTime":641.82,"body":"the course of this year, and"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":641.82,"endTime":645.96,"body":"kind of dipping in and out of"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":641.82,"endTime":645.96,"body":"their lives, and sharing moments"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":646.41,"endTime":649.56,"body":"that you don't normally get to"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":646.41,"endTime":649.56,"body":"see with them – through journals"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":649.56,"endTime":653.43,"body":"and diaries and video diaries,"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":649.56,"endTime":653.43,"body":"as well as just talking to them"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":653.43,"endTime":657.27,"body":"– I kind of learned a lot about"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":653.43,"endTime":657.27,"body":"how the routines and the rhythms"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":657.27,"endTime":660.3,"body":"of everyday life, and the"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":657.27,"endTime":660.3,"body":"significance of the things we"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":660.3,"endTime":664.86,"body":"usually just take for granted"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":660.3,"endTime":664.86,"body":"are so disrupted. So, whether"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":664.86,"endTime":668.52,"body":"it's just, you know, a simple"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":664.86,"endTime":668.52,"body":"having a cup of coffee in the"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":668.52,"endTime":673.41,"body":"morning, or how much time you"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":668.52,"endTime":673.41,"body":"were able to sleep that night –"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":673.44,"endTime":676.65,"body":"these things become really,"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":673.44,"endTime":676.65,"body":"really significant. And it kind"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":676.65,"endTime":679.8,"body":"of highlighted for me how it's"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":676.65,"endTime":679.8,"body":"really hard to live a modern"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":679.8,"endTime":683.13,"body":"life with illness, and just how"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":679.8,"endTime":683.13,"body":"illness disrupts our bodies and"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":683.13,"endTime":684.45,"body":"our lives in different ways."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":684.57,"endTime":686.37,"body":"That's"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":684.57,"endTime":686.37,"body":"interesting, because so often"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":686.37,"endTime":689.31,"body":"when we talk about illness we're"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":686.37,"endTime":689.31,"body":"talking about older age or the"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":689.31,"endTime":692.28,"body":"end of life, yeah? And that"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":689.31,"endTime":692.28,"body":"seems to be a really different"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":692.28,"endTime":694.98,"body":"thing from where you went in"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":692.28,"endTime":694.98,"body":"this project."},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":695.64,"endTime":697.89,"body":"Yeah, that was"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":695.64,"endTime":697.89,"body":"part of my frustration with a"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":697.89,"endTime":700.65,"body":"lot of what I was reading. It"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":697.89,"endTime":700.65,"body":"was that it was about older"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":700.65,"endTime":704.19,"body":"people who you kind of expect,"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":700.65,"endTime":704.19,"body":"your maybe going to get ill and"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":704.34,"endTime":708.69,"body":"very lucky if you grow old. Or"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":704.34,"endTime":708.69,"body":"it was about really particular"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":708.69,"endTime":714.66,"body":"kind of medical kind of ways of"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":708.69,"endTime":714.66,"body":"thinking about illness. So, only"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":714.66,"endTime":718.89,"body":"people with depression or only"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":714.66,"endTime":718.89,"body":"people with diabetes. So, what I"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":718.89,"endTime":723.57,"body":"wanted to do was kind of cut"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":718.89,"endTime":723.57,"body":"through some of those ways in"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":723.57,"endTime":729.15,"body":"which we divide our experiences,"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":723.57,"endTime":729.15,"body":"and think about how people, so"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":729.15,"endTime":732.75,"body":"many people – and it's so hidden"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":729.15,"endTime":732.75,"body":"and so unspoken – but so many"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":732.75,"endTime":735.87,"body":"people do just live their lives"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":732.75,"endTime":735.87,"body":"with illness. And so, a lot of"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":735.87,"endTime":740.19,"body":"the people that I was working"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":735.87,"endTime":740.19,"body":"with were in their 20s or 30s,"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":740.22,"endTime":743.46,"body":"or some of them were in their"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":740.22,"endTime":743.46,"body":"40s. Some of them had been"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":743.49,"endTime":746.7,"body":"looking for a diagnosis for a"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":743.49,"endTime":746.7,"body":"long time, and some of them had"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":746.7,"endTime":749.46,"body":"been diagnosed as children. So,"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":746.7,"endTime":749.46,"body":"this was really a part of"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":749.46,"endTime":752.94,"body":"living. If you've grown up with"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":749.46,"endTime":752.94,"body":"something, or if you're in your"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":752.94,"endTime":758.04,"body":"20s and you're living your life"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":752.94,"endTime":758.04,"body":"with an illness, I think, it can"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":758.04,"endTime":760.74,"body":"be dark and it can be"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":758.04,"endTime":760.74,"body":"depressing, and there can be"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":760.74,"endTime":766.29,"body":"some really bleak black moments."},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":760.74,"endTime":766.29,"body":"But a lot of what people shared"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":766.29,"endTime":770.43,"body":"with me was the ways in which"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":766.29,"endTime":770.43,"body":"they were caught by kind of"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":770.43,"endTime":773.43,"body":"finding health and happiness"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":770.43,"endTime":773.43,"body":"within their illness, how they"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":773.43,"endTime":776.7,"body":"were managing to do things by"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":773.43,"endTime":776.7,"body":"listening to their bodies in"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":776.7,"endTime":780.9,"body":"different ways, how they could"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":776.7,"endTime":780.9,"body":"take care of themselves in ways"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":780.9,"endTime":784.29,"body":"that medicine couldn't kind of"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":780.9,"endTime":784.29,"body":"cure them. So, it's, it's ... I"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":784.29,"endTime":788.25,"body":"mean, Alexis, you could talk"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":784.29,"endTime":788.25,"body":"about this too. You know, it's"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":788.58,"endTime":789.93,"body":"living with illness."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":790.26,"endTime":791.85,"body":"Well,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":790.26,"endTime":791.85,"body":"sticking with that word,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":791.94,"endTime":795.63,"body":"\"illness\", for now, in Virginia"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":791.94,"endTime":795.63,"body":"Woolf's essay On Being Ill, she"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":795.63,"endTime":800.4,"body":"says, \"considering how common"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":795.63,"endTime":800.4,"body":"illness is, how astonishing when"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":800.4,"endTime":803.82,"body":"the lights of health go down,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":800.4,"endTime":803.82,"body":"the undiscovered countries that"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":803.82,"endTime":807.3,"body":"are then disclosed, it becomes"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":803.82,"endTime":807.3,"body":"strange that illness has not"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":807.3,"endTime":810.54,"body":"taken its place with love,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":807.3,"endTime":810.54,"body":"battle, and jealousy among the"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":810.54,"endTime":814.17,"body":"prime themes of literature\"."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":810.54,"endTime":814.17,"body":"That's from almost a century"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":814.17,"endTime":819.27,"body":"ago. But would you agree with"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":814.17,"endTime":819.27,"body":"her now in 2022? I mean, why"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":819.27,"endTime":820.83,"body":"don't we talk more about"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":819.27,"endTime":820.83,"body":"illness?"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":820.86,"endTime":822.81,"body":"Such a"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":820.86,"endTime":822.81,"body":"beautiful quote, and I think"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":822.81,"endTime":826.44,"body":"it's really sadly still true. We"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":822.81,"endTime":826.44,"body":"live in a society that just"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":826.44,"endTime":830.16,"body":"doesn't recognise the body in so"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":826.44,"endTime":830.16,"body":"many ways, unless it's a thing"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":830.16,"endTime":833.76,"body":"that we can do things to. We shy"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":830.16,"endTime":833.76,"body":"away from the power it has over"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":833.76,"endTime":837.93,"body":"us and over our lives. We like"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":833.76,"endTime":837.93,"body":"not to notice our bodies until"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":837.93,"endTime":841.05,"body":"they break. There's lots of"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":837.93,"endTime":841.05,"body":"attention to the power that we"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":841.05,"endTime":844.02,"body":"have over our bodies to shape"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":841.05,"endTime":844.02,"body":"them in socially desired ways,"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":844.02,"endTime":848.16,"body":"to train them, to run marathons,"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":844.02,"endTime":848.16,"body":"to climb mountains. But people"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":848.16,"endTime":850.89,"body":"just don't think about the power"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":848.16,"endTime":850.89,"body":"our bodies have over us. And"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":850.89,"endTime":854.61,"body":"it's much easier, I think, to"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":850.89,"endTime":854.61,"body":"feel \"immortal\" if you haven't"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":854.61,"endTime":856.05,"body":"been touched by illness."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":856.29,"endTime":861.39,"body":"How do you think"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":856.29,"endTime":861.39,"body":"the pandemic affects all of"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":861.39,"endTime":865.92,"body":"this? The pandemic that, you"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":861.39,"endTime":865.92,"body":"know, the COVID-19 ongoing ..."},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":866.04,"endTime":867.24,"body":"The current"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":866.04,"endTime":867.24,"body":"pandemic."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":867.39,"endTime":870.42,"body":"The current"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":867.39,"endTime":870.42,"body":"pandemic, yeah."},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":870.42,"endTime":873.36,"body":"I mean, you"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":870.42,"endTime":873.36,"body":"would think that such a global"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":873.39,"endTime":877.74,"body":"crisis would really wake"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":873.39,"endTime":877.74,"body":"everyone up to the vulnerability"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":877.89,"endTime":883.11,"body":"of our bodies, but I think I'm"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":877.89,"endTime":883.11,"body":"not sure it has and that makes"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":883.11,"endTime":887.97,"body":"me really sad. I think it has"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":883.11,"endTime":887.97,"body":"divided people who do feel"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":887.97,"endTime":892.14,"body":"vulnerable and people who don't,"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":887.97,"endTime":892.14,"body":"even more. And I think we've got"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":892.14,"endTime":894.84,"body":"to a point now where everyone"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":892.14,"endTime":894.84,"body":"wants to forget about it and"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":894.84,"endTime":896.91,"body":"pretend that it's gone away."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":897.75,"endTime":900.06,"body":"Yeah, I mean,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":897.75,"endTime":900.06,"body":"like, going back to that"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":900.09,"endTime":904.32,"body":"Virginia Woolf quote, I think"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":900.09,"endTime":904.32,"body":"it's kind of important to add"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":904.32,"endTime":907.77,"body":"that she was, you know, an"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":904.32,"endTime":907.77,"body":"affluent white upper-class"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":907.95,"endTime":915.15,"body":"woman. And, you know, I wonder,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":907.95,"endTime":915.15,"body":"you know, the effect that has on"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":915.15,"endTime":919.14,"body":"whether people feel vulnerable"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":915.15,"endTime":919.14,"body":"or not, of course. So, you know,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":919.17,"endTime":922.32,"body":"throwing intersectionality in"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":919.17,"endTime":922.32,"body":"there, right? The way that"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":922.35,"endTime":926.22,"body":"class, gender, race interact and"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":922.35,"endTime":926.22,"body":"overlap to shape a person's"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":926.22,"endTime":929.94,"body":"experience, and it kind of"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":926.22,"endTime":929.94,"body":"becomes even more important, I'd"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":929.94,"endTime":933.66,"body":"think, to talk about illness and"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":929.94,"endTime":933.66,"body":"mortality sometimes in that"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":933.66,"endTime":937.74,"body":"context. And you can look at"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":933.66,"endTime":937.74,"body":"things like the stats on the"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":937.74,"endTime":940.89,"body":"disproportionate mortality rates"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":937.74,"endTime":940.89,"body":"of women of colour in childbirth"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":940.89,"endTime":946.59,"body":"in places like the UK. According"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":940.89,"endTime":946.59,"body":"to a recent BBC report, I'm"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":946.59,"endTime":950.4,"body":"quoting here, \"black women are"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":946.59,"endTime":950.4,"body":"more than four times more likely"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":950.4,"endTime":952.98,"body":"to die in pregnancy or"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":950.4,"endTime":952.98,"body":"childbirth than white women,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":953.43,"endTime":956.7,"body":"while women from Asian"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":953.43,"endTime":956.7,"body":"backgrounds face almost twice"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":956.7,"endTime":959.97,"body":"the risk\". And we can think"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":956.7,"endTime":959.97,"body":"about how campaigns like Black"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":959.97,"endTime":963.15,"body":"Lives Matter highlight how air"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":959.97,"endTime":963.15,"body":"pollution often affects the"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":963.15,"endTime":966.3,"body":"poorest communities. I don't"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":963.15,"endTime":966.3,"body":"know. Do you have any"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":966.3,"endTime":970.35,"body":"reflections on intersectionality"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":966.3,"endTime":970.35,"body":"and how that might approach the"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":970.35,"endTime":972.69,"body":"vulnerability of different types"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":970.35,"endTime":972.69,"body":"of bodies?"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":973.38,"endTime":974.85,"body":"Yeah, I think"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":973.38,"endTime":974.85,"body":"those are really, really"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":974.85,"endTime":978.06,"body":"shocking statistics, Rosie. And"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":974.85,"endTime":978.06,"body":"I think it's a little bit"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":978.06,"endTime":980.34,"body":"different to what we've been"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":978.06,"endTime":980.34,"body":"talking about so far, you know."},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":980.34,"endTime":983.67,"body":"In a way, we've been talking"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":980.34,"endTime":983.67,"body":"about illness as an individual"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":983.67,"endTime":987.6,"body":"experience, and what that kind"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":983.67,"endTime":987.6,"body":"of intersectionality and those"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":987.6,"endTime":991.32,"body":"kinds of statistics show us is"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":987.6,"endTime":991.32,"body":"that bodies ... In a very"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":991.32,"endTime":993.36,"body":"different way, you know, you're"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":991.32,"endTime":993.36,"body":"talking about kind of social"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":993.36,"endTime":997.05,"body":"determinism, rather than"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":993.36,"endTime":997.05,"body":"biological determinism – it's"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":997.05,"endTime":1000.47,"body":"not because those bodies are"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":997.05,"endTime":1000.47,"body":"more vulnerable, it's because of"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1000.47,"endTime":1007.91,"body":"the social structures, the fact"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1000.47,"endTime":1007.91,"body":"that class and money and access"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1007.97,"endTime":1012.14,"body":"to health services and where you"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1007.97,"endTime":1012.14,"body":"can live have effects on our"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1012.14,"endTime":1012.77,"body":"bodies, too."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1013.25,"endTime":1015.29,"body":"I think this"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1013.25,"endTime":1015.29,"body":"is a good moment to talk about"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1015.35,"endTime":1018.77,"body":"ableism. So, that's"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1015.35,"endTime":1018.77,"body":"discrimination and bias towards"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1018.77,"endTime":1022.37,"body":"so-called \"able-bodied\" people,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1018.77,"endTime":1022.37,"body":"against people who are or who"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1022.37,"endTime":1025.1,"body":"are seen to be so-called"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1022.37,"endTime":1025.1,"body":"\"disabled\"."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1025.13,"endTime":1026.75,"body":"Thanks for that,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1025.13,"endTime":1026.75,"body":"Alexis, because we've actually"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1026.75,"endTime":1029.39,"body":"got a couple of really great"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1026.75,"endTime":1029.39,"body":"pieces in The Sociological"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1029.39,"endTime":1033.41,"body":"Review magazine, written by"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1029.39,"endTime":1033.41,"body":"academics with experience of"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1033.44,"endTime":1037.7,"body":"chronic condition themselves –"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1033.44,"endTime":1037.7,"body":"so, Anna Ruddock in 2017 and"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1037.94,"endTime":1041.69,"body":"Moya Bailey that same year –"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1037.94,"endTime":1041.69,"body":"that point to how ableism is"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1041.69,"endTime":1046.31,"body":"just so deeply embedded and how"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1041.69,"endTime":1046.31,"body":"it can be hard to shake off its"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1046.34,"endTime":1049.88,"body":"demands. Charlotte, did you find"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1046.34,"endTime":1049.88,"body":"that this was a problem for the"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1049.88,"endTime":1053.09,"body":"people who you worked with in"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1049.88,"endTime":1053.09,"body":"your book?"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1053.39,"endTime":1057.08,"body":"Yeah, yeah, I"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1053.39,"endTime":1057.08,"body":"really did. So, ableism is just"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1057.08,"endTime":1060.08,"body":"so entrenched in our society,"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1057.08,"endTime":1060.08,"body":"isn't it? There's so much"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1060.08,"endTime":1063.08,"body":"pressure to be productive and"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1060.08,"endTime":1063.08,"body":"resilient and to hide our"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1063.08,"endTime":1066.41,"body":"vulnerabilities. And Anna"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1063.08,"endTime":1066.41,"body":"Ruddock, whom you just"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1066.41,"endTime":1069.38,"body":"mentioned, writes beautifully"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1066.41,"endTime":1069.38,"body":"about the way we try to render"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1069.41,"endTime":1071.84,"body":"our illnesses and therefore"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1069.41,"endTime":1071.84,"body":"large parts of ourselves"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1071.84,"endTime":1076.4,"body":"invisible. And sharing those"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1071.84,"endTime":1076.4,"body":"vulnerabilities can make us feel"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1076.43,"endTime":1081.32,"body":"even more vulnerable, precisely"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1076.43,"endTime":1081.32,"body":"because of ableism. And many of"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1081.32,"endTime":1083.63,"body":"the people I worked with in"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1081.32,"endTime":1083.63,"body":"Vital Bodies kept their"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1083.63,"endTime":1087.02,"body":"conditions hidden from their"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1083.63,"endTime":1087.02,"body":"employers, even to some degree"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1087.02,"endTime":1089.48,"body":"from their families, their"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1087.02,"endTime":1089.48,"body":"partners and their friends."},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1090.62,"endTime":1093.59,"body":"People, I think, can be really"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1090.62,"endTime":1093.59,"body":"cruel, they can be ignorant and"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1093.59,"endTime":1096.89,"body":"oblivious. Rebecca Solnit"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1093.59,"endTime":1096.89,"body":"recently wrote in The Guardian"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1096.89,"endTime":1101.69,"body":"that obliviousness is our great"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1096.89,"endTime":1101.69,"body":"social failing. But they can"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1101.69,"endTime":1106.61,"body":"also be kind. And I do have some"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1101.69,"endTime":1106.61,"body":"nice moments of kindness that"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1106.61,"endTime":1107.66,"body":"people shared with me too."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1108.35,"endTime":1110.6,"body":"And kind of on"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1108.35,"endTime":1110.6,"body":"that, I should actually mention"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1110.6,"endTime":1113.78,"body":"an essay that our producer Alice"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1110.6,"endTime":1113.78,"body":"shared with us, it's by Jameisha"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1113.78,"endTime":1118.31,"body":"Prescod, called \"Believing Your"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1113.78,"endTime":1118.31,"body":"Pain as Radical Self-Care\". In"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1118.31,"endTime":1121.85,"body":"it, she writes, how she's, and"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1118.31,"endTime":1121.85,"body":"I'm quoting here, \"noticed a"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1121.85,"endTime":1124.79,"body":"commonality in those of us"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1121.85,"endTime":1124.79,"body":"living with chronic illnesses"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1124.79,"endTime":1127.28,"body":"... We share a desperate need to"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1124.79,"endTime":1127.28,"body":"be believed ... It is"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1127.28,"endTime":1130.37,"body":"quintessential to our survival"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1127.28,"endTime":1130.37,"body":"... To believe yourself, your"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1130.37,"endTime":1134.24,"body":"body, and that your pain is"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1130.37,"endTime":1134.24,"body":"real, is a radical act of"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1134.24,"endTime":1137.48,"body":"self-care.\" And that's the end"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1134.24,"endTime":1137.48,"body":"of the quote there. But I think"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1137.48,"endTime":1141.65,"body":"it's an important point, again,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1137.48,"endTime":1141.65,"body":"speaking to ableism and those"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1141.65,"endTime":1144.32,"body":"things that really work against"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1141.65,"endTime":1144.32,"body":"a person being able to live as"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1144.32,"endTime":1144.95,"body":"they are."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1145.85,"endTime":1149.03,"body":"Yeah, and"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1145.85,"endTime":1149.03,"body":"we'll put those in the Episode"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1149.03,"endTime":1152.78,"body":"Notes. But just going back a"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1149.03,"endTime":1152.78,"body":"bit, Charlotte, you mentioned"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1152.84,"endTime":1156.05,"body":"experiences of kindness. And I"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1152.84,"endTime":1156.05,"body":"was just wondering if you could"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1156.11,"endTime":1158.96,"body":"elaborate or give us a few"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1156.11,"endTime":1158.96,"body":"examples of that?"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1158.99,"endTime":1162.83,"body":"Yeah. So,"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1158.99,"endTime":1162.83,"body":"examples of obliviousness, as"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1162.83,"endTime":1166.94,"body":"well as maybe examples of"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1162.83,"endTime":1166.94,"body":"kindness? Really simple things"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1166.97,"endTime":1170.15,"body":"that can really, really hurt,"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1166.97,"endTime":1170.15,"body":"like leaving the post on the"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1170.15,"endTime":1173.21,"body":"floor, which becomes a hazard"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1170.15,"endTime":1173.21,"body":"for a neighbour who can't pick"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1173.21,"endTime":1175.88,"body":"it up or easily step over it"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1173.21,"endTime":1175.88,"body":"because they use a walking"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1175.88,"endTime":1179.84,"body":"stick. And you know this about"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1175.88,"endTime":1179.84,"body":"them and yet still, you know,"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1179.87,"endTime":1184.52,"body":"nothing is done. Or honking a"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1179.87,"endTime":1184.52,"body":"car horn at a zebra crossing"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1184.52,"endTime":1188.12,"body":"when the person crossing the"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1184.52,"endTime":1188.12,"body":"road is moving \"too slowly\", but"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1188.12,"endTime":1192.35,"body":"that is the speed at which they"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1188.12,"endTime":1192.35,"body":"need to move. But small acts of"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1192.35,"endTime":1195.47,"body":"care can be things like helping"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1192.35,"endTime":1195.47,"body":"that stranger up from the"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1195.47,"endTime":1198.59,"body":"pavement if they fall, or just"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1195.47,"endTime":1198.59,"body":"setting up the coffee machine"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1198.59,"endTime":1199.76,"body":"for a flatmate in the morning."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1199.82,"endTime":1201.17,"body":"That's"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1199.82,"endTime":1201.17,"body":"really interesting, because it's"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1201.95,"endTime":1205.61,"body":"the example that you have, like"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1201.95,"endTime":1205.61,"body":"sometimes, even if they seem"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1205.61,"endTime":1210.11,"body":"like small things, they end up"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1205.61,"endTime":1210.11,"body":"feeling very, like, strong"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1210.11,"endTime":1213.53,"body":"emotions. Like, they can feel,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1210.11,"endTime":1213.53,"body":"like, super violent or super"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1213.53,"endTime":1219.32,"body":"kind, I guess. Anyway, we've"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1213.53,"endTime":1219.32,"body":"spoken a bit already about how"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1219.35,"endTime":1222.32,"body":"the unwell body can highlight"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1219.35,"endTime":1222.32,"body":"things we might otherwise take"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1222.32,"endTime":1226.19,"body":"for granted. It's essentially"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1222.32,"endTime":1226.19,"body":"disruptive. For example, in your"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1226.19,"endTime":1230.42,"body":"book, you talk about how the"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1226.19,"endTime":1230.42,"body":"unwell body that needs to sleep"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1230.78,"endTime":1234.17,"body":"can really clash with social"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1230.78,"endTime":1234.17,"body":"expectations, with the rhythms"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1234.2,"endTime":1238.73,"body":"of work and social life. It got"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1234.2,"endTime":1238.73,"body":"us thinking about how, whether"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1238.73,"endTime":1241.73,"body":"sleeping or otherwise, you could"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1238.73,"endTime":1241.73,"body":"say that the unwell body is"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1241.73,"endTime":1245.3,"body":"actually, in some way,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1241.73,"endTime":1245.3,"body":"counter-capitalist; or at least"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1245.33,"endTime":1249.77,"body":"reveals the absurdity, the"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1245.33,"endTime":1249.77,"body":"unlivability of capitalism. So,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1249.8,"endTime":1254.09,"body":"not only can neoliberalism make"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1249.8,"endTime":1254.09,"body":"you ill, but illness also"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1254.09,"endTime":1257.87,"body":"reveals that, well, capitalism"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1254.09,"endTime":1257.87,"body":"has its pathologies too?"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1258.41,"endTime":1261.56,"body":"Yeah, I"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1258.41,"endTime":1261.56,"body":"completely agree. And I think"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1261.56,"endTime":1264.23,"body":"that was really highlighted by"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1261.56,"endTime":1264.23,"body":"the fact that the people that I"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1264.23,"endTime":1267.89,"body":"was working with were in their"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1264.23,"endTime":1267.89,"body":"20s and 30s. So, you know, their"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1267.89,"endTime":1271.01,"body":"friends were going out and"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1267.89,"endTime":1271.01,"body":"partying all night, they were"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1271.01,"endTime":1276.17,"body":"working long hours living in the"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1271.01,"endTime":1276.17,"body":"city. But when you're ill, life"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1276.17,"endTime":1278.9,"body":"really can quite quickly"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1276.17,"endTime":1278.9,"body":"unravel. And it really just"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1278.9,"endTime":1282.26,"body":"brings everything into question,"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1278.9,"endTime":1282.26,"body":"from eating and sleeping to work"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1282.26,"endTime":1286.25,"body":"and relationships. And I do"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1282.26,"endTime":1286.25,"body":"think that that kind of also"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1286.25,"endTime":1289.46,"body":"reveals the absurdity of the"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1286.25,"endTime":1289.46,"body":"speed that we try to live on,"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1289.88,"endTime":1293.33,"body":"and our ingrained ideas about"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1289.88,"endTime":1293.33,"body":"productivity and the 24/7"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1293.33,"endTime":1295.46,"body":"society that we are living in."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1296.9,"endTime":1298.64,"body":"Thanks,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1296.9,"endTime":1298.64,"body":"Charlotte. We'll be back in a"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1298.64,"endTime":1301.37,"body":"moment to talk more about the"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1298.64,"endTime":1301.37,"body":"vulnerable body when we talk"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1301.37,"endTime":1305.09,"body":"about your work on what's come"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1301.37,"endTime":1305.09,"body":"to be called, in some circles at"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1305.09,"endTime":1309.38,"body":"least, \"wild swimming\". But"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1305.09,"endTime":1309.38,"body":"first a word from our producer,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1309.38,"endTime":1310.13,"body":"Alice."},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1314.75,"endTime":1317.12,"body":"Hi, and thanks for"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1314.75,"endTime":1317.12,"body":"listening to Uncommon Sense from"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1317.12,"endTime":1320.45,"body":"The Sociological Review, where"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1317.12,"endTime":1320.45,"body":"every month we invite an expert"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1320.45,"endTime":1323.9,"body":"guest to join us and mull over"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1320.45,"endTime":1323.9,"body":"an everyday concept in everyday"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1323.9,"endTime":1327.29,"body":"language that we all think we"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1323.9,"endTime":1327.29,"body":"kind of understand. And over the"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1327.29,"endTime":1330.83,"body":"course of about 40 minutes, or"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1327.29,"endTime":1330.83,"body":"so, we move along together and"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1330.83,"endTime":1335.0,"body":"try to see it a bit differently,"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1330.83,"endTime":1335.0,"body":"and yet more sociologically. And"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1335.0,"endTime":1338.0,"body":"if you're enjoying this episode"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1335.0,"endTime":1338.0,"body":"on \"bodies\", why not go back"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1338.0,"endTime":1341.18,"body":"through our archive and listen"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1338.0,"endTime":1341.18,"body":"to episodes on \"intimacy\" and"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1341.21,"endTime":1344.72,"body":"\"care\" among others. You can"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1341.21,"endTime":1344.72,"body":"find those at the podcast page"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1344.75,"endTime":1348.41,"body":"at thesociologicalreview.org,"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1344.75,"endTime":1348.41,"body":"where you can also see details"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1348.41,"endTime":1352.19,"body":"on our guests alongside reading"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1348.41,"endTime":1352.19,"body":"tips to share. And do take a"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1352.19,"endTime":1354.89,"body":"moment to tap follow and"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1352.19,"endTime":1354.89,"body":"whatever app you're using to"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1354.89,"endTime":1358.16,"body":"listen to this right now. It"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1354.89,"endTime":1358.16,"body":"really genuinely does help us to"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1358.16,"endTime":1360.89,"body":"keep making this podcast for"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1358.16,"endTime":1360.89,"body":"everyone. Thanks for listening!"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1369.47,"endTime":1371.45,"body":"Okay,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1369.47,"endTime":1371.45,"body":"Charlotte, time to turn to your"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1371.45,"endTime":1374.27,"body":"work on wild swimming, that"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1371.45,"endTime":1374.27,"body":"you've done with sociologist"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1374.27,"endTime":1379.19,"body":"Kate Moles. So, why study wild"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1374.27,"endTime":1379.19,"body":"swimming? And how did you and"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1379.19,"endTime":1382.94,"body":"Kate set out to study it? I"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1379.19,"endTime":1382.94,"body":"guess, I'm asking what were your"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1382.97,"endTime":1384.89,"body":"aims or approaches, your"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1382.97,"endTime":1384.89,"body":"methods?"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1386.18,"endTime":1387.98,"body":"I think it was"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1386.18,"endTime":1387.98,"body":"one of those \"accidental\""},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1387.98,"endTime":1392.36,"body":"projects that just happened, and"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1387.98,"endTime":1392.36,"body":"it's really kept me afloat"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1392.36,"endTime":1395.93,"body":"during the pandemic in so many"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1392.36,"endTime":1395.93,"body":"ways – working with Kate,"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1396.23,"endTime":1401.21,"body":"swimming, trying something new."},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1396.23,"endTime":1401.21,"body":"Kate is a swimmer. She has swam"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1401.21,"endTime":1405.14,"body":"all her life. She swims long"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1401.21,"endTime":1405.14,"body":"distances, and it was something"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1405.14,"endTime":1407.84,"body":"that she had been wanting to"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1405.14,"endTime":1407.84,"body":"research, I think, for a long"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1407.84,"endTime":1410.78,"body":"time. It's one of those moments"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1407.84,"endTime":1410.78,"body":"where your kind of personal"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1410.78,"endTime":1414.62,"body":"passions cross over into your"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1410.78,"endTime":1414.62,"body":"work. And then, with my interest"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1414.62,"endTime":1418.37,"body":"in working with video and my"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1414.62,"endTime":1418.37,"body":"interest in bodies, we just"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1418.37,"endTime":1422.0,"body":"ended up doing it together. The"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1418.37,"endTime":1422.0,"body":"project kind of changed. It"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1422.0,"endTime":1425.45,"body":"started pre-pandemic when we"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1422.0,"endTime":1425.45,"body":"were going swimming with GoPros"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1425.78,"endTime":1429.95,"body":"and meeting people in the water,"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1425.78,"endTime":1429.95,"body":"and then it kind of became more"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1429.95,"endTime":1434.15,"body":"restricted. But actually, that"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1429.95,"endTime":1434.15,"body":"opened up a lot of things that"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1434.15,"endTime":1437.9,"body":"we wouldn't have thought about"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1434.15,"endTime":1437.9,"body":"before. So, through the kind of"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1437.9,"endTime":1440.18,"body":"pandemic restrictions and"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1437.9,"endTime":1440.18,"body":"lockdowns we were working"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1440.18,"endTime":1444.77,"body":"remotely with a group of about"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1440.18,"endTime":1444.77,"body":"30 women who live all around the"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1444.77,"endTime":1449.45,"body":"UK, and it gave us a chance to"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1444.77,"endTime":1449.45,"body":"form friendships and share"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1449.45,"endTime":1453.89,"body":"thoughts – very occasionally"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1449.45,"endTime":1453.89,"body":"swim together. But for them, to"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1453.89,"endTime":1458.63,"body":"share how swimming was keeping"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1453.89,"endTime":1458.63,"body":"them afloat as well, and what it"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1458.63,"endTime":1460.07,"body":"meant to them and why they were"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1458.63,"endTime":1460.07,"body":"doing it."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1460.88,"endTime":1464.18,"body":"Charlotte, what"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1460.88,"endTime":1464.18,"body":"were you trying to find out"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1464.18,"endTime":1467.66,"body":"here? Like, what do you think"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1464.18,"endTime":1467.66,"body":"is, like, sociologically"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1467.66,"endTime":1469.22,"body":"interesting about wild swimming?"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1469.58,"endTime":1471.47,"body":"I think, you"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1469.58,"endTime":1471.47,"body":"know, we talked earlier about"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1471.47,"endTime":1474.74,"body":"how you can think about the body"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1471.47,"endTime":1474.74,"body":"in different ways – like what we"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1474.74,"endTime":1478.28,"body":"do to it and what it does to us"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1474.74,"endTime":1478.28,"body":"– and, on the face of it, a"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1478.28,"endTime":1482.12,"body":"project about swimming is a"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1478.28,"endTime":1482.12,"body":"really kind of sociology of"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1482.12,"endTime":1485.51,"body":"sport – it's the way in which we"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1482.12,"endTime":1485.51,"body":"go do stuff, we get in the"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1485.51,"endTime":1488.09,"body":"water, we swim, we train"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1485.51,"endTime":1488.09,"body":"ourselves. But it wasn't really"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1488.09,"endTime":1491.18,"body":"about that for me at all. It was"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1488.09,"endTime":1491.18,"body":"about the women that get in"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1491.18,"endTime":1495.65,"body":"freezing cold seas in winter,"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1491.18,"endTime":1495.65,"body":"who don't really swim at all,"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1495.68,"endTime":1499.49,"body":"they just kind of bob in the"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1495.68,"endTime":1499.49,"body":"water. And it was about those"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1499.49,"endTime":1503.45,"body":"vulnerabilities and those"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1499.49,"endTime":1503.45,"body":"friendships, the ways in which"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1503.45,"endTime":1507.14,"body":"swimming kind of turns our ways"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1503.45,"endTime":1507.14,"body":"of thinking about the body"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1507.14,"endTime":1512.93,"body":"around, and about what it can do"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1507.14,"endTime":1512.93,"body":"in very different ways. So, it's"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1512.93,"endTime":1516.62,"body":"not about swimming 4 kilometres,"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1512.93,"endTime":1516.62,"body":"it's about getting in 4°C degree"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1516.62,"endTime":1520.82,"body":"water. Those are two very"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1516.62,"endTime":1520.82,"body":"different things. And the kind"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1520.82,"endTime":1523.97,"body":"of effects that that has on"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1520.82,"endTime":1523.97,"body":"people's relationships with"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1524.48,"endTime":1526.46,"body":"their own bodies as well as with"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1524.48,"endTime":1526.46,"body":"other people."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1528.08,"endTime":1531.11,"body":"This term – \"wild"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1528.08,"endTime":1531.11,"body":"swimming\" – that you use is"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1531.77,"endTime":1535.88,"body":"curious to me, because, here in"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1531.77,"endTime":1535.88,"body":"Australia, I'm not sure if we"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1535.88,"endTime":1538.91,"body":"really use it, or at least"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1535.88,"endTime":1538.91,"body":"perhaps I'm not cool enough to"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1538.91,"endTime":1542.42,"body":"know of this, if we do use it or"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1538.91,"endTime":1542.42,"body":"not. But there is this really"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1542.42,"endTime":1547.88,"body":"famous club in Bondi, called"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1542.42,"endTime":1547.88,"body":"Icebergs, and to become an"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1547.91,"endTime":1551.63,"body":"Iceberg, you have to do a"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1547.91,"endTime":1551.63,"body":"certain number of outdoor – this"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1551.63,"endTime":1555.65,"body":"is, you know, they've got one of"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1551.63,"endTime":1555.65,"body":"these outdoor ocean pools – and"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1555.65,"endTime":1558.41,"body":"you have to do a certain number"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1555.65,"endTime":1558.41,"body":"of swims between, I think, April"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1558.41,"endTime":1562.64,"body":"and October. But here, I mean, I"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1558.41,"endTime":1562.64,"body":"just call that \"swimming in"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1562.64,"endTime":1566.33,"body":"winter\" rather than \"wild"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1562.64,"endTime":1566.33,"body":"swimming\". Alexis, is it a term"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1566.33,"endTime":1569.93,"body":"you guys have in Ottawa? I"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1566.33,"endTime":1569.93,"body":"imagine, swimming outdoors is"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1569.96,"endTime":1573.92,"body":"maybe automatically a bit more"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1569.96,"endTime":1573.92,"body":"wild, if by wild we're meaning"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1573.92,"endTime":1574.7,"body":"cold?"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1576.44,"endTime":1577.97,"body":"Ah, that's"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1576.44,"endTime":1577.97,"body":"right. I mean, like, during the"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1577.97,"endTime":1583.55,"body":"summer, I feel like people go"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1577.97,"endTime":1583.55,"body":"swimming in nature. Like, that"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1583.55,"endTime":1587.06,"body":"definitely happens, like, just"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1583.55,"endTime":1587.06,"body":"finding a spot and swim in. And"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1587.06,"endTime":1590.0,"body":"many people will know ... will"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1587.06,"endTime":1590.0,"body":"either have a cottage or know"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1590.0,"endTime":1592.79,"body":"someone who knows someone that"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1590.0,"endTime":1592.79,"body":"has a cottage, and it has a lake"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1592.79,"endTime":1596.15,"body":"and then they can swim in. I'm"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1592.79,"endTime":1596.15,"body":"not sure if that's the \"wild\" –"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1596.18,"endTime":1599.63,"body":"semi-wild? In nature,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1596.18,"endTime":1599.63,"body":"definitely. I haven't heard the"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1599.63,"endTime":1605.51,"body":"expression \"wild swimming\". But,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1599.63,"endTime":1605.51,"body":"for example, this brings me to a"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1605.51,"endTime":1608.57,"body":"memory of my friend saying \"oh,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1605.51,"endTime":1608.57,"body":"I found this place of water, an"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1608.57,"endTime":1611.3,"body":"then we started swimming, and it"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1608.57,"endTime":1611.3,"body":"was at night, and we saw a tree"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1611.3,"endTime":1615.41,"body":"really far, and then we swam"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1611.3,"endTime":1615.41,"body":"...\" So, there is this aspect of"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1615.41,"endTime":1619.58,"body":"wild swimming, for sure, but"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1615.41,"endTime":1619.58,"body":"maybe not spoken about in the"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1619.58,"endTime":1620.45,"body":"same words."},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1621.89,"endTime":1623.54,"body":"I think you've"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1621.89,"endTime":1623.54,"body":"both really hit on something"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1623.54,"endTime":1628.07,"body":"there. And it is, it's a kind of"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1623.54,"endTime":1628.07,"body":"contentious label – \"wild"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1628.07,"endTime":1633.62,"body":"swimming\". It's become a really"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1628.07,"endTime":1633.62,"body":"big thing in the UK, and I think"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1633.62,"endTime":1635.51,"body":"there are different cultures"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1633.62,"endTime":1635.51,"body":"around it in different"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1635.51,"endTime":1638.24,"body":"countries. And it's something"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1635.51,"endTime":1638.24,"body":"that I'm trying to unpick a"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1638.24,"endTime":1640.88,"body":"little bit at the moment too."},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1638.24,"endTime":1640.88,"body":"You know, it's not just about"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1640.88,"endTime":1645.11,"body":"conquering nature. And there's"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1640.88,"endTime":1645.11,"body":"many different ways and"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1645.53,"endTime":1648.89,"body":"different terms – \"open-water"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1645.53,"endTime":1648.89,"body":"swimming\" is another one that's"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1648.89,"endTime":1652.61,"body":"used in the UK. But I'm"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1648.89,"endTime":1652.61,"body":"interested in what work that"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1652.61,"endTime":1657.02,"body":"word \"wild\" is doing. And our"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1652.61,"endTime":1657.02,"body":"relationships with nature, and"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1657.02,"endTime":1660.8,"body":"how we think about whether water"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1657.02,"endTime":1660.8,"body":"is wild or not, or how it feels"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1660.8,"endTime":1664.85,"body":"wild. And how that brings people"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1660.8,"endTime":1664.85,"body":"in into contact and in touch"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1664.85,"endTime":1666.08,"body":"with nature in different ways."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1667.19,"endTime":1670.01,"body":"Do you think"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1667.19,"endTime":1670.01,"body":"that, like, in a way, wild"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1670.01,"endTime":1674.06,"body":"swimming has become a bit"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1670.01,"endTime":1674.06,"body":"commodified, perhaps? Like, I've"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1674.06,"endTime":1678.41,"body":"heard that Dryrobes are a really"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1674.06,"endTime":1678.41,"body":"big thing in certain types of"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1678.62,"endTime":1682.76,"body":"swimming. Did the swimmers that"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1678.62,"endTime":1682.76,"body":"you met have anything to say"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1682.76,"endTime":1688.82,"body":"about wild swimming as, like, an"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1682.76,"endTime":1688.82,"body":"underground movement of sorts or"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1688.82,"endTime":1690.59,"body":"like the cool new thing to be"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1688.82,"endTime":1690.59,"body":"doing?"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1691.16,"endTime":1694.73,"body":"Yeah, so, it"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1691.16,"endTime":1694.73,"body":"has had quite a boom in the UK."},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1694.88,"endTime":1699.32,"body":"And with that have come things"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1694.88,"endTime":1699.32,"body":"like Dryrobes, which are kind of"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1699.32,"endTime":1702.8,"body":"these oversized fleece-lined"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1699.32,"endTime":1702.8,"body":"robes that help people –"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1702.83,"endTime":1706.37,"body":"swimmers – get changed and keep"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1702.83,"endTime":1706.37,"body":"warm after a swin, because it is"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1706.37,"endTime":1711.65,"body":"pretty cold outside here all"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1706.37,"endTime":1711.65,"body":"year round. And they kind of"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1711.65,"endTime":1715.43,"body":"represent a level of economic"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1711.65,"endTime":1715.43,"body":"commitment. So, it does become"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1715.43,"endTime":1718.67,"body":"classed. I think, you know, we"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1715.43,"endTime":1718.67,"body":"were talking before about the"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1718.67,"endTime":1722.39,"body":"wild, and a lot of the older"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1718.67,"endTime":1722.39,"body":"swimmers that I've spoken to"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1722.39,"endTime":1724.4,"body":"don't call it \"wild swimming\";"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1722.39,"endTime":1724.4,"body":"they just call it swimming,"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1724.76,"endTime":1729.56,"body":"because that's what we all used"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1724.76,"endTime":1729.56,"body":"to do. But with this kind of"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1729.74,"endTime":1733.52,"body":"swell of swimmers, and a lot"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1729.74,"endTime":1733.52,"body":"more swimming venues opening up"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1733.52,"endTime":1737.36,"body":"around the UK and people really"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1733.52,"endTime":1737.36,"body":"getting into it, there's been a"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1737.36,"endTime":1740.96,"body":"kind of a bit of a culture"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1737.36,"endTime":1740.96,"body":"clash, I think. There was a"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1740.96,"endTime":1746.84,"body":"great incident in Dublin, where"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1740.96,"endTime":1746.84,"body":"signs were put up saying \"no"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1746.87,"endTime":1750.89,"body":"Dryrobe swimmers welcome here\"."},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1746.87,"endTime":1750.89,"body":"So, it is ... there are these"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1750.89,"endTime":1751.67,"body":"tensions."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1754.04,"endTime":1755.36,"body":"That's"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1754.04,"endTime":1755.36,"body":"really interesting. It's like,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1755.48,"endTime":1759.23,"body":"so, it opens up the question of,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1755.48,"endTime":1759.23,"body":"like, how practices become"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1759.23,"endTime":1762.53,"body":"commodified, I guess, right?"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1759.23,"endTime":1762.53,"body":"But, at the same time, there"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1762.68,"endTime":1766.97,"body":"definitely seems to be"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1762.68,"endTime":1766.97,"body":"subversive elements to this –"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1767.0,"endTime":1770.12,"body":"this notion of wild swimming"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1767.0,"endTime":1770.12,"body":"that you talk about."},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1770.18,"endTime":1773.48,"body":"Yeah, I think"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1770.18,"endTime":1773.48,"body":"it is subversive in different"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1773.48,"endTime":1776.54,"body":"ways. It's subversive just"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1773.48,"endTime":1776.54,"body":"because it's not in a swimming"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1776.54,"endTime":1779.39,"body":"pool. We've kind of got to that"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1776.54,"endTime":1779.39,"body":"point where, you know,"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1779.39,"endTime":1783.68,"body":"everything is sanitised and"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1779.39,"endTime":1783.68,"body":"ordered and we go to the"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1783.68,"endTime":1786.14,"body":"swimming pool to swim. Why can't"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1783.68,"endTime":1786.14,"body":"we just go and swim in the"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1786.14,"endTime":1788.36,"body":"river? But actually, we can't"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1786.14,"endTime":1788.36,"body":"just go and swim in the river"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1788.36,"endTime":1792.23,"body":"because it's really polluted."},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1788.36,"endTime":1792.23,"body":"So, it's kind of challenging our"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1792.23,"endTime":1795.71,"body":"kind of typical ways of thinking"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1792.23,"endTime":1795.71,"body":"and acting, and where we do"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1795.71,"endTime":1799.31,"body":"things and how we do things."},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1795.71,"endTime":1799.31,"body":"Whether it's swimming outdoors"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1799.31,"endTime":1802.7,"body":"or getting changed in a public"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1799.31,"endTime":1802.7,"body":"park and kind of stripping down"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1803.06,"endTime":1805.31,"body":"in a place where you just"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1803.06,"endTime":1805.31,"body":"normally wouldn't do that."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1806.06,"endTime":1807.56,"body":"So,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1806.06,"endTime":1807.56,"body":"Charlotte, would you say that"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1807.56,"endTime":1811.73,"body":"it's ... that this wild swimming"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1807.56,"endTime":1811.73,"body":"is a form of self-care? And why"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1811.73,"endTime":1814.85,"body":"does it seem that mainly women"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1811.73,"endTime":1814.85,"body":"tend to do it from your"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1814.85,"endTime":1815.48,"body":"experience?"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1815.96,"endTime":1818.15,"body":"I think that"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1815.96,"endTime":1818.15,"body":"that word \"self-care\" is really"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1818.15,"endTime":1821.84,"body":"problematic, as Bev Skeggs"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1818.15,"endTime":1821.84,"body":"highlighted in the first"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1821.84,"endTime":1827.18,"body":"podcast, but I do think it is an"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1821.84,"endTime":1827.18,"body":"act of care. Many swimmers find"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1827.18,"endTime":1830.45,"body":"comfort in the cold water, as"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1827.18,"endTime":1830.45,"body":"well as in their friendships and"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1830.45,"endTime":1834.08,"body":"the community that swimming"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1830.45,"endTime":1834.08,"body":"sustains. People have recounted"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1834.11,"endTime":1837.05,"body":"to us, through the project, how"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1834.11,"endTime":1837.05,"body":"swimming has helped them through"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1837.05,"endTime":1840.62,"body":"grief, recovery, mental illness."},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1837.05,"endTime":1840.62,"body":"I don't think it's something"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1840.62,"endTime":1844.07,"body":"that can be prescribed or"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1840.62,"endTime":1844.07,"body":"bottled as a cure. But it's"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1844.07,"endTime":1847.7,"body":"definitely kept people afloat"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1844.07,"endTime":1847.7,"body":"during incredibly hard times."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1847.91,"endTime":1850.82,"body":"Thanks,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1847.91,"endTime":1850.82,"body":"Charlotte. I mean, I really love"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1850.88,"endTime":1854.03,"body":"the way in which it sounds like"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1850.88,"endTime":1854.03,"body":"a community of women coming"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1854.03,"endTime":1856.97,"body":"together and like offering"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1854.03,"endTime":1856.97,"body":"support to each other as well."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1856.97,"endTime":1860.75,"body":"And I'm also really appreciating"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1856.97,"endTime":1860.75,"body":"your use of the word \"afloat\""},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1860.78,"endTime":1866.54,"body":"when we're talking about"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1860.78,"endTime":1866.54,"body":"swimming. So, Charlotte, we're"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1866.54,"endTime":1869.78,"body":"gonna stick with that notion of"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1866.54,"endTime":1869.78,"body":"comfort and care, actually,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1869.78,"endTime":1873.08,"body":"because this is the part of the"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1869.78,"endTime":1873.08,"body":"programme where we tend to take"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1873.08,"endTime":1877.97,"body":"on a word or concept, a"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1873.08,"endTime":1877.97,"body":"supposedly common sense thing"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1878.0,"endTime":1882.11,"body":"that deserves challenging. And"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1878.0,"endTime":1882.11,"body":"today we are going to talk about"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1882.11,"endTime":1884.72,"body":"wellness and the wellness"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1882.11,"endTime":1884.72,"body":"industry."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1884.84,"endTime":1888.17,"body":"So, how"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1884.84,"endTime":1888.17,"body":"would you define \"wellness\"? And"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1888.17,"endTime":1892.31,"body":"how has it appeared in your"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1888.17,"endTime":1892.31,"body":"work, or in how people talk to"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1892.31,"endTime":1893.81,"body":"you about wellness?"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1894.11,"endTime":1895.37,"body":"I mean, you"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1894.11,"endTime":1895.37,"body":"talked about the wellness"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1895.37,"endTime":1898.49,"body":"industry already there. And"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1895.37,"endTime":1898.49,"body":"that's something very different"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1898.64,"endTime":1902.15,"body":"to how I would use \"wellness\"."},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1898.64,"endTime":1902.15,"body":"So, the wellness industry, the"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1902.15,"endTime":1906.38,"body":"happiness industry, self-care –"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1902.15,"endTime":1906.38,"body":"those things offer solutions to"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1906.38,"endTime":1909.17,"body":"suffering, but they're also a"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1906.38,"endTime":1909.17,"body":"way of commodifying and"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1909.17,"endTime":1912.65,"body":"individualising responsibility"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1909.17,"endTime":1912.65,"body":"for health and happiness. And I"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1912.65,"endTime":1915.77,"body":"don't think health is a"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1912.65,"endTime":1915.77,"body":"lifestyle choice. You know, you"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1915.77,"endTime":1920.57,"body":"can't simply go swimming and"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1915.77,"endTime":1920.57,"body":"feel better. But, I think, we're"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1920.57,"endTime":1923.81,"body":"all still looking for some kind"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1920.57,"endTime":1923.81,"body":"of feeling of wellness. I think"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1923.81,"endTime":1928.16,"body":"there is a kind of search for"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1923.81,"endTime":1928.16,"body":"wellness. And Havi Carel writes"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1928.16,"endTime":1930.95,"body":"about finding health and"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1928.16,"endTime":1930.95,"body":"happiness within illness, but it"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1930.95,"endTime":1934.43,"body":"requires changing ideas about"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1930.95,"endTime":1934.43,"body":"time, about wellbeing, about"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1934.43,"endTime":1938.12,"body":"mortality, about the society"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1934.43,"endTime":1938.12,"body":"that we live in."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1939.02,"endTime":1940.88,"body":"It's so"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1939.02,"endTime":1940.88,"body":"interesting that you say, you"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1940.88,"endTime":1943.82,"body":"know, that you don't think"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1940.88,"endTime":1943.82,"body":"health is a lifestyle choice,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1943.82,"endTime":1948.2,"body":"because there's this piece that"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1943.82,"endTime":1948.2,"body":"was written in the HuffPost by"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1948.23,"endTime":1952.85,"body":"Lucy Pasha-Robinson called"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1948.23,"endTime":1952.85,"body":"\"Wellness Culture is Ableism in"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1952.85,"endTime":1956.48,"body":"Sheep’s Clothing\". And she talks"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1952.85,"endTime":1956.48,"body":"about having a chronic"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1956.48,"endTime":1960.11,"body":"condition, which is"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1956.48,"endTime":1960.11,"body":"endometriosis. And she writes"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1960.62,"endTime":1965.39,"body":"literally about this, right? She"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1960.62,"endTime":1965.39,"body":"says, and I'm quoting, \"the"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1965.39,"endTime":1968.72,"body":"wellness industry sermon of"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1965.39,"endTime":1968.72,"body":"constantly striving to 'fix'"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1968.72,"endTime":1971.6,"body":"something, and asking you to"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1968.72,"endTime":1971.6,"body":"part with money in order to do"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1971.6,"endTime":1975.02,"body":"so is inherently ableist. It"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1971.6,"endTime":1975.02,"body":"sells the idea that if we are"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1975.05,"endTime":1978.83,"body":"ill we are broken, and that"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1975.05,"endTime":1978.83,"body":"health is a lifestyle choice.\""},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1979.1,"endTime":1982.22,"body":"And I think your perspective on"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1979.1,"endTime":1982.22,"body":"that, as it relates to people"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1982.22,"endTime":1985.22,"body":"who have illnesses, is really"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1982.22,"endTime":1985.22,"body":"interesting, particularly around"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1985.25,"endTime":1990.89,"body":"your work with people who have"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1985.25,"endTime":1990.89,"body":"illness, and how they talk about"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1990.89,"endTime":1993.86,"body":"pretty basic, but really vital,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1990.89,"endTime":1993.86,"body":"things like sleep, food and"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1994.16,"endTime":1997.1,"body":"exercise, as opposed to this big"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1994.16,"endTime":1997.1,"body":"industry."},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1997.46,"endTime":2000.58,"body":"That's a"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":1997.46,"endTime":2000.58,"body":"beautiful quote. I think, for"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":2000.58,"endTime":2004.15,"body":"me, it's about finding comfort,"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":2000.58,"endTime":2004.15,"body":"not cure; it's about being"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":2004.15,"endTime":2008.35,"body":"vulnerable, about making space"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":2004.15,"endTime":2008.35,"body":"for that vulnerability – keeping"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":2008.35,"endTime":2008.92,"body":"afloat."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2009.43,"endTime":2012.25,"body":"So, on the theme"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2009.43,"endTime":2012.25,"body":"of kind of taking care of"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2012.28,"endTime":2017.11,"body":"ourselves, I wanted to turn now"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2012.28,"endTime":2017.11,"body":"to this idea of the \"nature"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2017.11,"endTime":2021.07,"body":"cure\". And that's an idea that"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2017.11,"endTime":2021.07,"body":"suggests that we can feel better"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2021.07,"endTime":2024.73,"body":"when we're out – let's, you"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2021.07,"endTime":2024.73,"body":"know, go with swimming here – in"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2024.76,"endTime":2029.65,"body":"nature, whatever that is. But –"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2024.76,"endTime":2029.65,"body":"and you kind of have mentioned"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2029.65,"endTime":2031.63,"body":"this in some of what you've been"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2029.65,"endTime":2031.63,"body":"saying, Charlotte – that"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2031.63,"endTime":2034.99,"body":"actually sometimes that nature"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2031.63,"endTime":2034.99,"body":"is actually pretty damaged; and"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2035.02,"endTime":2038.32,"body":"I'd like to add here, maybe, in"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2035.02,"endTime":2038.32,"body":"part because of our consumption"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2038.32,"endTime":2040.75,"body":"and wellbeing practices"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2038.32,"endTime":2040.75,"body":"themselves, you know –"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2041.11,"endTime":2044.68,"body":"microplastics in beauty"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2041.11,"endTime":2044.68,"body":"products, let's say. You know."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2044.68,"endTime":2047.83,"body":"Does this mean that maybe we"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2044.68,"endTime":2047.83,"body":"need a more holistic notion of"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2047.83,"endTime":2051.55,"body":"wellness – like, human wellness?"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2047.83,"endTime":2051.55,"body":"If we want to get the benefits"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2051.55,"endTime":2055.75,"body":"of swimming, then we want our"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2051.55,"endTime":2055.75,"body":"bodies of water to be well,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2056.17,"endTime":2056.68,"body":"also."},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":2056.83,"endTime":2060.52,"body":"Yeah, our own"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":2056.83,"endTime":2060.52,"body":"wellbeing is intimately"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":2061.15,"endTime":2066.79,"body":"entangled with the wellbeing of"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":2061.15,"endTime":2066.79,"body":"our planet. Wild swimming is a"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":2066.79,"endTime":2070.45,"body":"really good example for this, I"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":2066.79,"endTime":2070.45,"body":"think, because it's not just"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":2070.45,"endTime":2075.4,"body":"going for a swim in a nice blue"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":2070.45,"endTime":2075.4,"body":"sea. It's just not that at all."},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":2075.7,"endTime":2078.94,"body":"Wild swimming is restorative,"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":2075.7,"endTime":2078.94,"body":"but it's also really risky. The"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":2078.94,"endTime":2081.73,"body":"waters in the UK are cold."},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":2078.94,"endTime":2081.73,"body":"They're also really polluted."},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":2081.76,"endTime":2084.76,"body":"But that doesn't stop people"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":2081.76,"endTime":2084.76,"body":"swimming in them and trying to"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":2084.76,"endTime":2089.38,"body":"find some comfort rather than"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":2084.76,"endTime":2089.38,"body":"cure. Samantha Walton writes"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":2089.38,"endTime":2092.05,"body":"really beautifully about"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":2089.38,"endTime":2092.05,"body":"immersing her vulnerable body in"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":2092.05,"endTime":2095.68,"body":"the vulnerable water, keeping"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":2092.05,"endTime":2095.68,"body":"her head above the water because"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":2095.68,"endTime":2099.16,"body":"she doesn't want to swallow it"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":2095.68,"endTime":2099.16,"body":"and get sick. And Clifton Evers"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":2099.16,"endTime":2102.19,"body":"has written about the idea of"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":2099.16,"endTime":2102.19,"body":"\"polluted leisure\", describing"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":2102.19,"endTime":2106.96,"body":"surfing in polluted waters as"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":2102.19,"endTime":2106.96,"body":"wellbeing with pollution. I hope"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":2106.96,"endTime":2109.9,"body":"that the realities of the waters"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":2106.96,"endTime":2109.9,"body":"that we swim in will make us"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":2109.9,"endTime":2112.42,"body":"more vulnerable, but also show"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":2109.9,"endTime":2112.42,"body":"us how we're entwined and"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":2112.42,"endTime":2115.72,"body":"entangled, and teach us to be"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":2112.42,"endTime":2115.72,"body":"more caring and have more"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":2115.72,"endTime":2120.01,"body":"ethical relations with the"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":2115.72,"endTime":2120.01,"body":"natural world. No, it's not"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":2120.01,"endTime":2122.26,"body":"something that we can just take"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":2120.01,"endTime":2122.26,"body":"from."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2122.71,"endTime":2124.33,"body":"Charlotte, I"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2122.71,"endTime":2124.33,"body":"think you wanted to draw our"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2124.33,"endTime":2127.93,"body":"attention to a project called"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2124.33,"endTime":2127.93,"body":"Moving Oceans, which is based"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2127.93,"endTime":2129.58,"body":"over where I am, in Australia."},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":2130.42,"endTime":2133.51,"body":"Yeah, Moving"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":2130.42,"endTime":2133.51,"body":"Oceans is a really great podcast"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":2133.51,"endTime":2137.02,"body":"project by Rebecca Olive. And"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":2133.51,"endTime":2137.02,"body":"she has conversations with"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":2137.41,"endTime":2140.68,"body":"different people who are working"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":2137.41,"endTime":2140.68,"body":"with oceans in different ways,"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":2140.68,"endTime":2145.33,"body":"really drawing our attention to"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":2140.68,"endTime":2145.33,"body":"those more-than-human encounters"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":2145.33,"endTime":2147.76,"body":"that we have and our"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":2145.33,"endTime":2147.76,"body":"relationships with planetary"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":2147.76,"endTime":2151.24,"body":"health, and that kind of"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":2147.76,"endTime":2151.24,"body":"question of scale, and about the"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":2151.6,"endTime":2154.42,"body":"other forms of life that we"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":2151.6,"endTime":2154.42,"body":"share the water with."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2154.57,"endTime":2156.79,"body":"Thanks for"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2154.57,"endTime":2156.79,"body":"that information, Charlotte."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2156.79,"endTime":2160.75,"body":"We'll definitely put that in the"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2156.79,"endTime":2160.75,"body":"Episode Notes. So, before we go,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2160.75,"endTime":2163.9,"body":"let's jump to the part of the"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2160.75,"endTime":2163.9,"body":"show where we share our tips for"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2163.9,"endTime":2167.65,"body":"things out there in the"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2163.9,"endTime":2167.65,"body":"so-called \"real world\" that we"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2167.65,"endTime":2171.97,"body":"can read, watch, see, listen or"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2167.65,"endTime":2171.97,"body":"whatever, to stretch our ideas"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2172.06,"endTime":2175.75,"body":"about bodies even further."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2172.06,"endTime":2175.75,"body":"Charlotte, do you have something"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2175.75,"endTime":2176.44,"body":"to suggest?"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":2176.47,"endTime":2178.75,"body":"I have so many"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":2176.47,"endTime":2178.75,"body":"things to suggest, but I'm going"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":2178.75,"endTime":2182.68,"body":"to choose one. I want to"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":2178.75,"endTime":2182.68,"body":"recommend a book by Nina Mingya"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":2182.71,"endTime":2186.13,"body":"Powles called \"Small Bodies of"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":2182.71,"endTime":2186.13,"body":"Water\". She weaves together"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":2186.13,"endTime":2189.61,"body":"memoir and nature-writing to"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":2186.13,"endTime":2189.61,"body":"explore a girlhood spent growing"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":2189.61,"endTime":2193.72,"body":"up between two cultures, pain,"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":2189.61,"endTime":2193.72,"body":"racism, what it means to belong,"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":2194.2,"endTime":2197.74,"body":"and finding home in bodies of"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":2194.2,"endTime":2197.74,"body":"water from the wild coastline of"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":2197.74,"endTime":2200.26,"body":"New Zealand to the Hampstead"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":2197.74,"endTime":2200.26,"body":"Heath swimming ponds in London."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2200.74,"endTime":2203.38,"body":"Oh, that sounds"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2200.74,"endTime":2203.38,"body":"really cool. I have enjoyed"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2203.38,"endTime":2207.07,"body":"swimming in both New Zealand and"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2203.38,"endTime":2207.07,"body":"Hampstead Heath. So, that sounds"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2207.07,"endTime":2213.31,"body":"right up my alley. Can I go"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2207.07,"endTime":2213.31,"body":"next, Alexis? I want to"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2213.31,"endTime":2217.33,"body":"recommend a poem by an"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2213.31,"endTime":2217.33,"body":"Australian poet, actually,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2217.33,"endTime":2223.06,"body":"called Andy Jackson called \"The"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2217.33,"endTime":2223.06,"body":"Change Room\". And it's about a"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2223.78,"endTime":2229.3,"body":"man with Marfan's and the"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2223.78,"endTime":2229.3,"body":"experience of walking through a"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2229.3,"endTime":2233.02,"body":"swimming pool and being"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2229.3,"endTime":2233.02,"body":"recognised as someone with a"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2233.02,"endTime":2236.02,"body":"really different body, but then"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2233.02,"endTime":2236.02,"body":"also the experience of being in"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2236.02,"endTime":2240.13,"body":"the water and how liberating"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2236.02,"endTime":2240.13,"body":"that can be. And I just want to"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2240.13,"endTime":2243.49,"body":"kind of quote really quickly"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2240.13,"endTime":2243.49,"body":"from the poem. He says, \"I"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2243.49,"endTime":2247.78,"body":"become that man again,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2243.49,"endTime":2247.78,"body":"unsettling – shape to be"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2247.78,"endTime":2252.4,"body":"explained.\" And I love how that"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2247.78,"endTime":2252.4,"body":"poem just really seems to tie"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2252.4,"endTime":2254.65,"body":"together really nicely all of"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2252.4,"endTime":2254.65,"body":"the things that we've spoken"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2254.65,"endTime":2255.4,"body":"about today."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2255.73,"endTime":2258.97,"body":"It's really"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2255.73,"endTime":2258.97,"body":"interesting. For me, my"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2258.97,"endTime":2262.6,"body":"suggestion would be to look into"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2258.97,"endTime":2262.6,"body":"the artist Viktoria Modesta, who"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2262.6,"endTime":2265.99,"body":"performed at the closing"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2262.6,"endTime":2265.99,"body":"ceremony for the 2012 London"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2265.99,"endTime":2270.7,"body":"Paralympics. She has referred to"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2265.99,"endTime":2270.7,"body":"her work, I believe, as a bionic"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2270.73,"endTime":2274.21,"body":"artist, often displaying"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2270.73,"endTime":2274.21,"body":"tech-fashion with her diverse"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2274.24,"endTime":2278.14,"body":"array of prosthetic legs. And"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2274.24,"endTime":2278.14,"body":"she has new music out, but I was"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2278.14,"endTime":2281.62,"body":"really intrigued by her first"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2278.14,"endTime":2281.62,"body":"video, a number of years back,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2281.8,"endTime":2285.82,"body":"for her song \"Prototype\" – with"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2281.8,"endTime":2285.82,"body":"lyrics like, \"we're limitless,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2285.82,"endTime":2289.78,"body":"we're not confined\" – where she"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2285.82,"endTime":2289.78,"body":"opened a bunch of questions, I"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2289.78,"endTime":2294.64,"body":"feel, about how we live with or"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2289.78,"endTime":2294.64,"body":"as bodies, and also as"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2294.64,"endTime":2298.78,"body":"societies. It also makes me"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2294.64,"endTime":2298.78,"body":"think about the work of a friend"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2298.78,"endTime":2301.51,"body":"of mine, Alexandre Baril, who"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2298.78,"endTime":2301.51,"body":"has worked on things like"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2301.51,"endTime":2305.92,"body":"becoming an amputee by choice,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2301.51,"endTime":2305.92,"body":"extreme transformations and,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2305.92,"endTime":2309.19,"body":"more generally, the idea of"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2305.92,"endTime":2309.19,"body":"wilfully acquiring what would be"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2309.19,"endTime":2313.51,"body":"otherwise understood as an"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2309.19,"endTime":2313.51,"body":"impairment or disability."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2313.6,"endTime":2318.97,"body":"Wow, that sounds"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2313.6,"endTime":2318.97,"body":"wild, Alexis. It kind of makes"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2318.97,"endTime":2322.12,"body":"me think about how, you know,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2318.97,"endTime":2322.12,"body":"upset my parents were when I"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2322.12,"endTime":2327.31,"body":"just got tattoos, and I can't"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2322.12,"endTime":2327.31,"body":"... It's like, I guess for"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2327.31,"endTime":2332.5,"body":"everyone there's always one step"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2327.31,"endTime":2332.5,"body":"further that you can go. Thanks"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2332.53,"endTime":2336.97,"body":"so much, Charlotte. That was so"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2332.53,"endTime":2336.97,"body":"great to speak to you. I know"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2336.97,"endTime":2340.39,"body":"that it's, you know – we've had"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2336.97,"endTime":2340.39,"body":"a very disembodied experience"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2340.39,"endTime":2343.96,"body":"here, all three of us in"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2340.39,"endTime":2343.96,"body":"different parts of the world."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2343.99,"endTime":2346.87,"body":"But I think we've still managed"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2343.99,"endTime":2346.87,"body":"to have a really lovely intimate"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2346.87,"endTime":2347.68,"body":"conversation."},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":2347.74,"endTime":2349.81,"body":"Thanks, Rosie."},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":2347.74,"endTime":2349.81,"body":"It was really lovely to be here"},{"speaker":"Charlotte Bates","startTime":2349.81,"endTime":2350.14,"body":"with you."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2355.03,"endTime":2356.77,"body":"And that's"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2355.03,"endTime":2356.77,"body":"it for this month. You can catch"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2356.77,"endTime":2360.22,"body":"this reading list including"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2356.77,"endTime":2360.22,"body":"those recommendations, and one"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2360.22,"endTime":2363.19,"body":"from our producer Alice, by"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2360.22,"endTime":2363.19,"body":"clicking on our podcasts page at"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2363.19,"endTime":2366.46,"body":"The Sociological Review website;"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2363.19,"endTime":2366.46,"body":"or have a scroll through our"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2366.46,"endTime":2371.23,"body":"Episode Notes in the app you're"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2366.46,"endTime":2371.23,"body":"using to hear this. Rosie, what"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2371.23,"endTime":2375.01,"body":"I'll take away from today's"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2371.23,"endTime":2375.01,"body":"episode I think is Charlotte's"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2375.01,"endTime":2379.18,"body":"discussion on her research, it"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2375.01,"endTime":2379.18,"body":"really made me kind of look back"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2379.21,"endTime":2384.43,"body":"at my own experiences of asthma"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2379.21,"endTime":2384.43,"body":"and diabetes, and see it through"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2384.46,"endTime":2388.72,"body":"a different lens. Maybe not as"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2384.46,"endTime":2388.72,"body":"things that were necessarily,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2389.08,"endTime":2392.38,"body":"well, on one side, things that"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2389.08,"endTime":2392.38,"body":"were happening to my body, but"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2392.41,"endTime":2398.23,"body":"also how I – as my own body –"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2392.41,"endTime":2398.23,"body":"was changing over time in the"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2398.23,"endTime":2401.65,"body":"way that I was experiencing that"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2398.23,"endTime":2401.65,"body":"subjectively. What about you?"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2401.68,"endTime":2406.66,"body":"Yeah, I mean, I"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2401.68,"endTime":2406.66,"body":"think I am going to think about"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2406.66,"endTime":2410.41,"body":"how prioritising health, instead"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2406.66,"endTime":2410.41,"body":"of thinking about wellness, is"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2410.41,"endTime":2415.12,"body":"actually or can be"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2410.41,"endTime":2415.12,"body":"counter-capitalist. I really, I"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2415.12,"endTime":2416.2,"body":"really liked that idea."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2421.21,"endTime":2423.31,"body":"So, next"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2421.21,"endTime":2423.31,"body":"month we're talking about"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2423.34,"endTime":2427.21,"body":"\"cities\", or I guess you could"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2423.34,"endTime":2427.21,"body":"say the body in urban space."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2427.27,"endTime":2429.67,"body":"If you've enjoyed"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2427.27,"endTime":2429.67,"body":"listening to Uncommon Sense, do"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2429.67,"endTime":2433.06,"body":"tap \"follow\" and rate or review"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2429.67,"endTime":2433.06,"body":"us in whatever app you're using,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2433.51,"endTime":2435.46,"body":"and share us with your friends"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2433.51,"endTime":2435.46,"body":"and family."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2436.18,"endTime":2437.92,"body":"Our"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2436.18,"endTime":2437.92,"body":"executive producer was Alice"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2437.92,"endTime":2440.86,"body":"Bloch. Our sound engineer was"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2437.92,"endTime":2440.86,"body":"Dave Crackles. Thanks for"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2440.86,"endTime":2442.27,"body":"listening. Bye."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2442.3,"endTime":2443.14,"body":"Bye!"}]}