I AM ONE Podcast by Postpartum Support International

CLAIRE HEWSON, MC, RCC - I AM ONE Mom Who Needed to Grieve Her Infant Feeding Experience (PPA, Traumatic Birth)

• Season 3 • Episode 35

Share episode

Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.

0:00 | 1:01:56

Send us Fan Mail

Trigger Warning: Traumatic Birth

On today’s episode, we’re sitting down with Claire Hewson, an educator, a counselor & a PhD student at Queen’s University in British Columbia, Canada! Not only that, Claire is the very first PSI intern to hop into the recording studio with us. We’ll chat all about breast, chest and body feeding, trouble with bonding and the grief that followed, how all of this affected Claire after the birth of both of her children, and the full-circle experience she is having by creating a unique and supportive space at PSI for parents just like her! So, without any further ado, please sit back, relax, and enjoy this episode with our friend, Claire.

Mentioned in this episode:

Interested in sharing your story?
Fill out our podcast interest form here!

Questions about the I AM ONE Podcast?
Email Dani Giddens - dani@postpartum.net

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Connect by PSI - Download PSI's New App!
Apple Version
Android Version

Visit PSI's website: https://www.postpartum.net
Find free resources & info on certification, training, and other incredible programs!

Call or text 'HELP' to the PSI Helpline: 1-800-944-4773
Not feeling like yourself? Looking for some support? You never need a diagnosis to ask for help.

National Maternal Mental Health Hotline (U.S. only): 1-833-852-6262
Free and confidential Hotline for parents, providers & support people in English and Spanish.

Suicide & Crisis Lifeline (U.S. & Canada): 988
Free and confidential support for people in distress, prevention and crisis resources for you or your loved ones, and best practices for pro...

Dani:

Welcome to the I Am One podcast, where we talk to perinatal mental health advocates, professionals, and educators supporting the mission of Postpartum Support International. We're not afraid to ask our guests about the hardest parts of pregnancy and postpartum because we know that PSI has tools and resources to help in every situation, and everyone should know about them.

Emily:

Whether you are among the 1 in 5 moms, 1 in 10 dads, one of many trans or non-binary parents, or you're one professional or advocate committed to helping folks in need, you are also one of us.

Dani:

I'm your host, Dani Giddens, and I am one in five. I didn't know what to call what I was experiencing after becoming a parent and felt too scared at the time to speak up.

Emily:

Not anymore. Now she won't stop talking about it. Hi, I'm your co-host, Emily Jankowski. I'm also one in five, and I want you to know that mental health complications are common but they aren't normal.

Dani:

There's something powerful in knowing I am one of many. Whether you're already connected to the perinatal mental health world, looking for new ways to support parents and families, or just want to hang out with us in your earbuds, we are so glad that you tuned in.

Emily:

Of course they want to hang out with us. We're lovely. Seriously, though, the views, thoughts, and opinions expressed on this pod are the speaker's own. Tuning into this podcast is, spoiler alert, not a replacement for therapy, But PSI can help you find a therapist. We could also help you find a psychiatrist, a support group, or Waldo.

Dani:

Emily, Waldo? Come on. We don't know where Waldo is.

Emily:

Okay, fine. PSI help seekers can find peer support and resources in their area.

Dani:

At PSI, we want you to know you are not alone, you are not to blame, and with help, you will be well. On today's episode, we're sitting down with Claire Hewson, an educator, a counselor, and a PhD student at Queen's University in British Columbia, Canada. Not only that, Claire is the very first PSI intern to hop into the recording studio with us. We'll chat all about breast, chest, and body feeding, how this affected Claire after the birth of both of her children, and the full circle experience she's having by creating a unique and supportive space at PSI for parents just like her. So without any further ado, please sit back, relax, and enjoy this episode with our friend Claire. Claire, welcome to the podcast studio.

Claire:

Thanks for having me.

Dani:

Oh, yeah. Today is an I Am One podcast first. It is our pleasure to welcome Claire, who was the very first PSI intern to be on the pod. So that's very exciting, exclusive podcast content right here. We're excited to be with you today and chat about perinatal mental health and a bit about your lived experience. And we really can't wait to hear all about something very exciting that you've been working very hard on launching here at PSI. So thank you so much.

Emily:

You guys, you know that question we ask at the end where we say like, what are you doing now? Claire's got a great answer.

Dani:

Yeah.

Emily:

I'm excited.

Dani:

Yeah. Listen, listen all the way through.

Claire:

And we're going to leave you on the edge of your seat and we're going to talk about it at the very end. So you got to listen to the very end to hear all about it.

Dani:

We won't save it for that late in the episode.

Emily:

No, because we're going to want to talk about it.

Dani:

Claire, could you give us a little bit of an introduction to who you are?

Claire:

My name is Claire Hewson, and I actually live in Canada. I don't know, am I your first Canadian guest as well?

Dani:

No, you are not.

Claire:

Okay.

Dani:

But you're top five.

Claire:

Okay. I live in a small rural town in Southeast BC, and I am a teacher and a registered clinical counselor, and I am also a PhD student. And then, of course, I'm an intern at PSI. I almost forgot about that one. And a mother of two, a one and a half year old girl and a three year old, three and a half year old boy.

Emily:

So you're not busy.

Claire:

No.

Emily:

Is what you're saying.

Claire:

No, no, not at all. When I started my PhD, my coworker looked at me and was like, do you hate sleep?

Dani:

Yeah, who needs it?

Emily:

Technically, we all need sleep.

Claire:

Exactly. And when you're doing something you love and you're passionate about, it really doesn't feel like work. As cliché as that is, it's like, yeah.

Emily:

Yeah.

Claire:

I'll explain all about it. But my life has just changed in like a 180 since having my kids in a hard way and also in a good way.

Dani:

I think that piece that you just said about it not feeling like work is like, that's when you kind of know you're doing the right thing. I mean–

Emily:

yes,

Dani:

sometimes maybe it might feel like work, but most of the time this does not feel like work to me. It's, um...

Claire:

Yeah.

Emily:

It's like solving a puzzle or helping someone in need or it, yeah, it's just, it's way more exciting and engaging and like somehow we all have a little bit more capacity than we thought we did.

Dani:

Yeah. So-

Emily:

All right. Oh.

Dani:

No, it's okay. I almost stepped on your toes.

Emily:

Ow.

Dani:

Sorry about that.

Emily:

So can you tell us what role perinatal mental health complications have played in your life personally, professionally? Somehow I have a feeling it's both.

Claire:

It is both. Well, why don't I start with the personal piece? Because that is how I transitioned into the professional piece. And what I wanted to highlight or the theme this week is talking about perinatal mental health disorders surrounding infant feeding. And so in 2020, in quarantine, as a lot of people did, they conceived a baby because what else was there to do during quarantine? And being pregnant during COVID and having a baby during COVID, I think brought up just so many challenges in different ways. And when I was thinking back about my journey, there's so many pieces that you kind of discount and you think, oh, that didn't really matter. That wasn't really a part of it. But it truly was. I mean, a huge part of it was just feeling robbed about your experiences and even just like the buildup and the learning in your prenatal classes or community or that socialization during your pregnancy just wasn't there. And as all mothers do, we kind of envision what we think life will be like as a baby, and especially for infant feeding. And you learn so much about the environment and the community around you. And all the women around me were all breastfeeding, you go to the coffee shop, they whip their boobs out. And you're like, oh, that's going to be me one day, it's going to be awesome. And so convenient and bonding and amazing. And during our prenatal class, we did connect with a lactation consultant. And of course it's all through zoom. So there's just so much that's missing. Plus we had our cameras off and you're munching on chips at the same time. And, uh, I remember her saying, oh, it'll take about, it could take up to six weeks. And I was, I was like, oh, that's not going to be me. It's just going to be easy. Just like how it is for everyone else.

Emily:

Six weeks, like to get into a groove with breastfeeding, chest feeding? Yeah. Okay.

Claire:

Yes.

Emily:

Got it.

Claire:

To get into a groove. I think for some people it can happen a lot faster, but I think she said like at the far end, it could take up to six weeks so just be prepared. And I was like, okay, I think I can do this. And actually I kind of forgot all about that until I connected with her after my son was born. So when I went into labor, my water broke and I think from start to finish it was about 36 hours so it was a long labor it was probably active labor for 24 hours, but from start to finish it was 36 and–

Dani:

Virtual hug.

Claire:

Yeah yeah which with, it's interesting because with all the breastfeeding challenges i have we just we ignore– not ignore, but we forget about all these really hard parts like just the birth trauma of it all like had breastfeeding gone easier i would have thought back and been like, wow, I experienced some intense birth trauma, but this feeding thing just overshadowed everything, all the challenging parts and also all the good parts, all of the time that I thought I would spend bonding with my baby. And even just like, you know, you get to show your baby off, but I didn't because it was COVID and because I literally couldn't go out in public.

Dani:

Yeah.

Emily:

Yeah.

Claire:

And so I had my baby and immediately didn't latch, but I didn't really think anything of it. I was just like, you know, you're just in that bliss of like, I did this, I survived childbirth. Sure, I can't poop. I'm like seriously injured, like no other, but I did this. I'm not okay. But you are okay. Cause you're just like, wow. And it just immediately connects you to every mother in the world. Like you think about it and you're like, wow, everyone did this like in a different shape, in a different form, in a different way. It doesn't matter if you had a C-section. It doesn't matter if you had a two hour easy birth, like, you did it. You're part of this community that, like, did it. And it's just such an amazing feeling. Actually a funny story is I was FaceTiming with my dad in the hospital and I don't even remember saying this. And he told me, He's like, you said you couldn't wait to have a second baby. And your baby was like two days old. You know, you're just on this like high, right?

Dani:

Claire's like, I want to do this again.

Claire:

Yeah.

Emily:

Danny and I were both like, we're going to be in the one and done club. That was a lot. Neither of us are actually in the one and done club.

Dani:

We're both in the three and done club.

Claire:

Yeah, that's amazing. And so then starts the whole breastfeeding journey of what I call the triple feeding hell, where you try to have the baby latch and then the baby doesn't latch. They're fussing. So then you pump and then you take the pump milk and you give it in a bottle. And then my partner, he would bottle feed while I was pumping. And that kind of went on. And I was in the hospital for five days. just really, they want you to establish breastfeeding before you go home, if that's your goal. When I say this, it's not against any of the hospital staff, but I think they were really listening to what I wanted and what I wanted was breastfeeding. But I think in that vision I had, I was just so focused that I didn't realize that like, okay, this baby's not getting the nutrition and he's getting sick and maybe I should supplement with formula. And it's like, you know, they talk about the colostrum being liquid gold. And you're just like, you talk about hard work and you're just like pumping and giving her and like your nipples are bleeding and you just don't care. You know, you're just doing everything you can and you just can't see outside you. Eventually we're like, okay, well, we need to top up with formula. And it had been five days. And I was like- oh, this was the other thing. I hadn't pooped in five days.

Dani:

Oh, Claire. They let you leave the hospital?

Claire:

They did because I just, I knew I would be able to do it at home, they gave me an enema kit to take home and it was like the second I got home I was able to go. But yeah, coming back to just like ignoring your own health where it's like I had fourth degree tearing I had so much stuff going on but I wasn't even thinking that I was just like I need to keep this baby alive I need to breastfeed him–

Emily:

I'm sorry, you had fourth degree tearing and you were ready for number two? I just have a lot of questions right now

Claire:

I think I was on some- I had some drugs or something.

Emily:

I mean oxytocin is a hell of a drug, yeah, yeah.

Claire:

For sure so when I got home the hard thing was that my partner had to go back to work I was due December 27th. And I didn't give birth till January 4th. And then we were in the hospital for almost a week. And so how he had calculated is like, oh, I'll take Christmas off. I'll take Christmas off, over Christmas. You'll have the baby around Christmas time and then I'll be there to help. And then at least I'll have a couple of weeks.

Dani:

Well, that is how it works, right? You can plan everything. You can schedule your life ahead of time.

Claire:

Absolutely. So he was only home for three days before he went back to work. And fortunately, I had a lot of support of friends to help. And I think back to- I'm laughing. I'm like, how many people in this small town saw my boobs? How many? Because it's like, you just don't care, right? I remember having this tank top, and I kind of pushed it in between my chest because my nipples were so sore and dry and cracked and bleeding. And I was like, I actually can't put a shirt on. I can't put a bra on. And you need to nurse your baby every one to two hours. I was like, this is just, this is how it's going to be. And my friends would come over and I was just like, you're just so vulnerable. You're just like, this is me.

Dani:

Yeah. You've never answered the door like that before. They're like, now for something new

Claire:

And so that triple feeding continued and just trying all different things. There was the SNS tube that you would either try to put on your nipple. What we ended up doing is like having to finger feed. And so we put the SNS tube on your finger to have the baby just practice that sucking motion.

Dani:

Oh, interesting.

Claire:

But it's just such a long process. If you think about having to feed an infant every one to two hours, it was like you pump and then like the finger feeding. And if, if I didn't have help, I would have to finger feed and like somehow managed to pump at the same time. Because what I would do is after- I think a feed would take about, I don't know, 45 minutes or so. And then I would set my alarm for 20 minutes. And I would pump because if I would pump in between the feeds, it would help your supply. And then 20 minutes later, ding, the alarm would go again. I was like, okay, I have to start this craziness all over again. And there's just so many pieces that when I look back, I was like, wow, no wonder why I was going crazy. It's like cleaning the pump stuff, cleaning the SNS tubes, all the double pumping stuff. There's feeding exercises for the baby or to get their mouth strong, to get their latch strong, doing little stretches in their mouth. I was also on Domperidone, which is a medication to help increase your supply, as well as supplements and mother's milk tea. And I got to this place where I'm like, am I bonding with my baby? Am I enjoying this? Or is this just like, all about the feeding?

Dani:

I can only imagine that it was next to impossible to bond when all your brain was thinking about was a feeding schedule, setting alarms.

Emily:

It makes that new parenting stage so process oriented and like not at all like connection oriented, because you're so focused on like the steps that you have to complete over and over and over again.

Claire:

Absolutely. And there was this sense of rejection I felt. Like I can almost tear up just thinking about it where, yeah, not only are you not bonding, but your baby's also rejecting you. Like he would be screaming, turning purple at my breast. And I would just be crying. Like anytime we had to start a feed, I felt this overwhelmed sense of anxiety and almost doom that I'm like, oh my gosh, it's already been two hours. We have to do this all over again. I can't believe it. And I've talked a little bit about it with my partner and I know how hard it was for him to see me like this. Like he just felt so, so helpless. And I'll talk about what the experience was like with my daughter, because it was kind of like round two repeated. When eventually we did switch to bottles, it was just so amazing for him to see me happier and to see his bond with the baby grow as well. So how I put the ending to the madness was, it was about six weeks. And I had basically stumped the lactation consultant. She's like, I don't know. We've done everything, like nipple shields, like pulling your nipple out, everything and anything you can think of. I think back to getting him to latch. I felt like- I was doing handstands and getting all contorted. And there was two people, one person holding a baby and one person holding his head. It was like, there was actually three of us sometimes because my partner would have to hold the SNS tube and the bottle of breast milk. You have to hold it up higher–

Emily:

Yep

Claire:

to go down and...

Emily:

That was my experience, too.

Claire:

Yeah and it's like I even had- I tied a string around a bottle and had it around my neck and then had the SNS tube go out and then had it taped on my nipple it's like the thing- you look back and it's like the things you did to try to make it work was just like I would have, I would have done anything and like maybe from the outside it's like why did you care that much? But like, I did. I really cared. It was really important to me.

Emily:

I have a handful of questions about this. So was the challenge his ability to latch and get milk? Was the challenge in your production? Was it yes, all of the above? Or in the end, when you had to stop, did you still not feel like you had answers as to like why this was happening even?

Claire:

It's such a good question because it's actually all the above. Yes, all the issues, like latch was an issue. Painful nipples was an issue. I think production definitely was an issue, but it kind of goes hand in hand because he wasn't latching very well and pulling because the more milk that goes out, the more you produce. And a pump is not as good as a baby's mouth. So that was an issue. But then also when we stopped, I was like, I still don't understand. Like, I still don't know why. So yeah, the lactation consultant said, well, I'm stumped. There's a clinic in a city about eight or nine hours away. They do a breastfeeding clinic and they specialize in posterior tongue ties, which is like a tongue tie. Does everyone know what a tongue tie is?

Dani:

Can you tell us for in case any of our listeners are unsure?

Emily:

I think you should tell us.

Dani:

Yeah.

Claire:

The frenulum, the little piece of tissue that's underneath your tongue, when it's really far forward, it restricts the mobility of the infant when they're a newborn and it's very obvious when they stick their tongue out, it's like a little heart shaped.

Emily:

Because they can't get the tongue all the way out of their mouth. Like,

Claire:

yes,

Emily:

it doesn't stick all the way out and make a U. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Claire:

Exactly. So my baby didn't have an obvious tongue tie. And obviously people aren't wanting to go in and cut baby's mouths. But I was like, well, this is the last scenario. Like, this is my last kick of the can. And, but it was about six weeks. I was like six weeks, in not sleeping. I'd actually lost my mom when I was 13 years old. And you have like all these different phases of grief. And it really hit me in that moment where I'm like, yes, my sister, my family's great. My older sister has three kids. She's lovely, but she has three kids. Like she can't, she can't be there for me. And it was COVID. So I would have had to like drive by myself. It was the winter, snowy conditions, stay in a hotel by myself, sleep deprived, like, do this whole triple feeding regimen. And I was like, you know what? I don't think I can do this. Like, I think I just need to give it one more week and figure it all out. And if it happens, it happens. And if not, then like, I just have to let this journey go. And kind of to rewind, because I was going through an induction process with my son, they gave me an ECG, which measures your heart to see if there's any stress. What happened is they actually measured that I had some kind of heart attack. They didn't tell me this before I gave birth, which thank God, because I would have been worried about it. But they said sometimes people have murmurs, which I do have a heart murmur, and it shows up that I had some kind of heart attack. They're like, they still don't really know. But, end of story is that they said, if you're having heart pains, like go to the ER, like take it seriously. And they told me this at like two, two weeks postpartum, three weeks postpartum. So at around six weeks postpartum, I started getting these, like, pretty intense heart pains. I was like, oh my gosh, like, what's going on? I need to go to the ER. And so I left my baby at home and I went to the ER and of course everything was fine. What I think it was is that like I was taking a lot of medication for milk production and my milk glands were just like really tightening around my chest. And then I think also I was having a bit of like a panic attack. Like my anxiety was just like through the roof. And right there in the ER, I was like, Claire, you have to stop. When is this going to end? Like there was no end in sight and things really got worse before they got better. And so I came home and I was like, I'm done. And the relief on my partner was just like, yes. And so I probably didn't wean properly. But you know, when you make that decision, when you're like, I'm done, you just need to be done immediately as possible. So it really helped my anxiety and my bond. But what came in was just like this sadness and this grief of this experience that I thought I was going to have. And during that time, I was really reflecting on some of the messages that I was getting from the community, from the World Health Organization, just from so many people around me. And again, I don't want to, people that have said things said it in like the most well-intentioned way, but like, can we please say that breast is best, like that saying really needs to go. Because it is absolutely not best and just so offensive to anyone that is struggling with breastfeeding challenges or people that just say that I don't because that's not what's best for me and for my family. I also had a healthcare practitioner tell me that babies that are breastfed have a higher IQ than babies that are formula fed. Also on the World Health Organization website, which is part of my PhD and I want to do more research and really look into that, because there's so many environmental and moderating variables with breastfeeding and IQ, like the mother's IQ or the mother's education level or the mother's sociocultural values. There's so much and you cannot, like a correlation does not equal causation. And I am just flabbergasted as to why that's still going on in the health community.

Emily:

Also, like the notion that IQ is somehow tied into like the value of a human being is like just really offensive and problematic on a lot of levels. Like, I don't see the connection there. So what? Like, let's assume that you're right, even though I think we all know you're not. Why are we even having this conversation?

Claire:

Absolutely. And it just exacerbates those feelings of feeling like a failure or like, am I not providing what's best for my baby? Am I not a good mom? And that transition of switching to formula was really hard on my mental health. And even just my relationship with my body, it's like, okay, my breasts have failed me. I hated them. Like, you know, they're supposed to even be like transitioning back to being like this sexy part of your body. It's like, no, I absolutely hated them. Also just with buying formula, like I would go to the grocery store and I would immediately just start crying. And I remember I asked my partner, I was like, you have to buy the formula because I walked down that aisle and I spend, you know, $60 Canadian on a can that lasts us- my little guy was a huge drinker that would last us a week. Even just the cost of it is just outrageous and exacerbated my feelings of not being a good mom. I met a friend in a prenatal group. So she was a new friend. She didn't really know me. And this is when I had switched to bottle feeding and I was going to go for a walk with her. And I remember just trying to time it so that I wouldn't have to feed in front of her and explain things. And I called my sister and I was like, I really feel like I need to tell her that I'm bottle feeding and this is why. And that I tried this, that, and the other, and explained myself. And my sister was like, you know, if it makes you feel better, you should do it. And I kind of thought about it. And I was like, you know what? Why do I feel like I need to explain this? Like, why is it anyone's business why I'm feeding my baby- not that she's nosy, but it was more so me thinking like, society is going to be staring at me like, why are you poisoning your baby with this formula? Which it's totally fine. Everything's fine. I have a formula fed baby. And I actually, my second was a breastfed baby. And I joke, I was like, they're both going to be eating French fries off the floor at some point.

Emily:

Can confirm. Yeah. And neither of them are going to eat, insert vegetable or type of food or whatever. Like, oh, I don't like it. It smells funny. They're all going to do that. Like there's no, there's no gamifying how to avoid difficult kids later on.

Claire:

Exactly. And so when I finally got through a lot of those challenging emotions and bottle fed, we really, we really found our groove and I was so much happier. I could leave the house. Like I, if you know me, I'm a very active person. I like being out in the community. I like exercising. For me not to leave my house for seven weeks is just unheard of. And I just felt like I found myself. Having said that, my anxiety continued in a different way, I think that– I don't even know if this is a thing, but I would call it feeding anxiety and then once that surpassed I was like okay I just have postpartum anxiety of just general worry of him and I think a lot of the feeding issues masked what was going on.

Emily:

Because they were louder at the time than that. Yeah.

Claire:

Absolutely. And I did get support and help. And I think one of the biggest ways of getting help was just connecting with other moms that struggled with feeding issues. And I think Emily, you mentioned you struggled a little bit.

Emily:

I did with my oldest, it was like a very long and hard birth. Like we ended up with like the feeding tube. He lost a tremendous amount of his body weight. Eventually it all worked out. That was what was in the cards for me.

Claire:

Now that I'm diving into the research, I mean, there's a study that shows that around 70% of women are birthing people struggle with breastfeeding. And some of those issues work out and some of them don't. And I can't even imagine in the States, I'm sure you don't even want to hear this, but we get a full year mat leave.

Emily:

We know. It's okay.

Dani:

We've heard.

Claire:

Sorry. But I just think about my struggles. And I'm like, If I was only off for three months, right, you get?

Dani:

I mean, yeah. I mean, if you have an employer that allows that.

Emily:

And you've worked there for at least 12 months.

Dani:

I mean, some people are not able to do that because they can't afford to not have a paycheck. You're allowed to take time off, but it's not fully paid.

Claire:

Yeah.

Dani:

Yeah. Right?

Emily:

Or paid at all. Yeah.

Dani:

Or sometimes not even paid at all. Yeah.

Claire:

It's like, I can't even imagine. I mean, if I was in the States, I'd just be like, why am I even bothering this? With my daughter, the story I'll get to in a second is like, it took me three months to figure out how to breastfeed her. And, you know, I can proudly say that I'm still breastfeeding at 17 months, which is amazing. But the journey to get there was just...

Emily:

Yeah.

Dani:

It's just like a hard thing to talk about. I also had, I stopped breastfeeding. Like I was only pumping for a month and a half because I had breastfeeding issues with my first two and then was able to continue breastfeeding after that. But like, it's important that you're here, Claire, and you're talking about it because I didn't know other people. So I'm interested to hear about how did you find other people to connect with that had breastfeeding difficulties?

Claire:

It's funny, I can be a private person, but when it came to this, it's like the desperation took over. And my sister's an amazing resource. And she started this WhatsApp group called breastfeeding dot, dot, dot the truth. And it was all of her friends that struggle with breastfeeding, sharing stories. Like everyone had all different issues and yeah, you just hear how common it is. And I was like, you know, there's a couple of reasons. One, maybe it's a bit taboo and people don't like talking about those challenges. But also, I think the first year of a baby's life is so intense that you kind of forget all about it. Like even just with like giving birth, it's like, well, there's other issues that are going to happen like, oh, sleep or like even feeding solids or just like it's just such an intense year that I think people kind of black out all those hard things and then just end up not talking about it.

Emily:

Or there's a new hard thing that is now louder in that moment. And it doesn't- like the rest of the stuff is just sort of like in the background. Yeah.

Claire:

Totally. So it was really nice to have that community. And then it's funny, then I ended up being this like go to person in the community when people had issues. It was like, random people are like, oh, I got your number from so and so and is it okay that I ask you this, that and the other and I'm like, yes, I am not a medical professional in terms of lactation consultant, but like I can support whatever emotions or whatever you're feeling or like guide you into some resources, whatever you need, because I just–

Emily:

Yeah.

Claire:

you're just in it. And I just, it just brings me back. Like I had a friend come over and she had the insufficient glandular tissue where it's like, it's all about milk production. And it was just, I could just see, I just, I cried. I don't even think she was crying, but I was crying because I was like, I feel you. You are not alone. I don't know exactly how you're feeling, but I can just empathize so deeply.

Dani:

Claire nailed the peer support in her community. Nice job, Claire.

Claire:

Informally. But yeah, so then brings me to my next pregnancy. It was interesting because as soon as I got pregnant, I started getting nervous about breastfeeding all over again and what that would look like.

Dani:

Hi, anxiety.

Emily:

Welcome back.

Claire:

My postpartum anxiety, it's funny because after a year, you know, I was, I got counseling support. I was on a bit of medication. And then after a year I was like, whoa, I don't need this anymore. Like, even though I don't think I got an official diagnosis, I was like, this is what it is because after a year, it just, just went away. Do I still worry about my children? Absolutely. Like it was so funny, a couple of weeks ago, a coworker was telling me she has a teenage daughter. She said, I didn't have a care in the world until I had a child. She's like, and I haven't stopped worrying since.

Emily:

Yeah.

Claire:

To hear that was a bit validating because I'm like, yes, I'm not going to be a high anxiety parent. I want them to feel safe to roam and to leave and to take chances, but I will always worry. And I want to try to manage that myself. So I'm not putting that on my kids.

Dani:

Yeah.

Claire:

But in terms of like the perinatal anxiety, I was like, oh, it just disappeared. Until the next one. Bum, bum, bum.

Dani:

Yeah. Bum, bum, bum.

Emily:

Yeah. The birth for me too. Like got pregnant with the second and it was all of a sudden I was like, oh no, birth.

Claire:

Here we go.

Emily:

That didn't go so well for me last time.

Claire:

Yeah.

Emily:

Let's hyper fixate on it and see if I can like game it out in advance, you know? Spoiler alert, that doesn't help.

Dani:

Yeah.

Claire:

But going into the second one, at least I was prepared for it so I went and saw a counselor before and actually talked about the breastfeeding journey because it'd been, you know, after the year, we switched fully onto solids there was no bottles and so I had that year because my kids are about two years apart to really prepare for it. Prepare and also worry, but you know.

Emily:

As you do.

Claire:

As you do. Yeah. And so my birth with my daughter was completely different. It was extremely fast. It was about four hours from start to finish.

Dani:

Oh.

Claire:

And I was also in denial of being in labor because ironically, I had thought my water had broke twice before, but really I just peed my pants you know that's just-

Emily:

As you do.

Claire:

Yeah.

Dani: The hashtag of this episode:

as you do.

Claire:

As you do, I know. It's funny because I live in a small town, it's like you go into the hospital and you know half the people there. You're like, yeah you just go out and shame. They're so wonderful, they would never make you feel bad about it. But it's just they end up giving me the sticks to see if it was amniotic fluid or urine, because I'd already been there twice they're like just take these and you can do it yourself at home. So I was in a bit of denial because I was like, I'm not going to be the girl who cried labor and-

Emily:

Not a third time.

Claire:

No, not a third. I was out for dinner with my partner and we had a babysitter and I felt a bit crampy. So I called my sister and I was like, because she was gonna take my son if I went into labor. And I told her I felt a bit crampy. And I was like, but don't worry. But I mean, I've been feeling crampy for weeks. And so we went out for dinner and I really started laboring. And I remember like moaning and groaning in the restaurant and my partner's like, I think we need to call it.

Dani:

And you're like, no, sir.

Claire:

No, I was like, we just ordered the pad thai. I am not leaving to go.

Emily:

Nope.

Claire:

And I remember staring at the wall breathing and he's like, okay, we need to cut. We need to call it. And so I went back home.

Emily:

Can I get this to go?

Dani:

Yeah. Wrap it up.

Claire:

I got home and our poor sweet babysitter is there and I'm just traumatizing her because I'm full blown in labor now in the other room. And Sean, my partner, calls my sister and is like, you need to come over now. And she's like, what? You called me like a half an hour or 45 minutes ago saying that you were cramping. And then when we called our midwives to go to the hospital, the hospital was full. This is rural living for you.

Dani:

Oh, no.

Claire:

We ended up having to go about an hour and 15 minutes to the next town over, which, I probably should have gone- or probably I should have gone by ambulance, but we didn't. And we're driving. And I remember that drive was the worst. We almost hit an elk. It was just so stressful.

Emily:

Oh, my God. Yeah.

Claire:

It was dark. And when I got to the hospital, it was within an hour and a half, I gave birth. And when I think back, you know, I'm so glad that that was my second because there were so many unknowns. And I was like, I got this. Like, it's okay if this is a nurse that I don't know. It's okay if this is a midwife I don't know. Like, it'll be okay. And it's such a blessing in disguise that I went there because obviously, immediately, my baby didn't latch. And this time, I remember as soon as I gave birth, because, you know, they plunk the slimy baby on you. And you're just like, whoa, okay, there's a slimy baby on me. And she didn't latch right away. And I remember like, just like kind of panicking, trying to get her to latch. And they're like, take a breath. It's okay. Like, don't worry. We'll figure it out. Because last time I had like a couple days of ignorant bliss of not worrying about it. But now this time I knew it was important. I need to talk about the darkest night of my life, which was that night that I gave birth because my partner had to go back and stay with our two-year-old. I was in a hospital I didn't know. My community wasn't there. and again like just dealing with this breastfeeding hell just all by myself.

Emily:

Yeah.

Claire:

And what the midwife there referred me to was a speech pathologist who had recently moved into the community, so in between my two babies, who specializes in tongue ties. So then the next day I wasn't in the hospital for very long because I was like we got to get out of here, we need to go home. Like, we know exactly what to do. We have a pump, we have all this stuff. And she said she had a posterior tongue tie. And I would get, again, referred to a dentist specialist, which is about four and a half hours away from where we live. So we did try to do the whole breastfeeding thing. And I was like, you know what, I'm not going to last as long. Like, I don't have it in me this time.

Emily:

Yeah.

Claire:

And so we ended up going to Kelowna. And she ended up having a frenectomy with a laser, which where her tongue tie was cut, her upper lip and her cheek buckles on the side of her cheek were cut. And even just that procedure alone, when I think back, I'm like, it was so intense. I couldn't be in the room. I heard the screaming through two closed doors and my partner had to be there. And then after we had to do all these stretches to make sure that the cuts didn't grow over.

Emily:

Right. Because otherwise they'll just heal with scar tissue, right?

Claire:

Exactly.

Emily:

Yeah.

Claire:

Exactly. But immediately after she latched perfectly and I, I cried. I was like, I have never had a pain-free latch ever.

Dani:

Wow.

Claire:

It was just incredible. But when I went back to my hometown, it didn't resolve itself. It was another five weeks of her learning. I think she had to learn how to, how a new mouth worked. And I ended up using a nipple shield, which my son never latched with a nipple shield. And I was like, okay, she's latching, she's getting milk. And what I didn't realize with the nipple shield, because I was just done with pumping like the...

Dani:

Oh yeah. You start hearing words. Is anybody else hearing what I'm hearing?

Claire:

Yeah. Even just that sound alone is just, oh. And what I didn't realize is that she wasn't, she actually wasn't drying milk. And I think again, like latch was an issue. Supply was an issue. And I was looking through some photos before I did the recording just to try to do the timeline. And it was six weeks and I pumped and I pumped half an ounce on each side. And I remember I almost just quit then and there because I was like, she's latching better ish, but I'm not pumping anything. What's going on? Because what I was doing is I was relying on her mouth to take milk out. And it wasn't happening. And it's so hard with breastfeeding because you don't actually know how much they're getting.

Dani:

That'd be kind of cool if you could see how much is in there and then see how much is left, like a little- kind of like on the side of your tea kettle or something, you kno,

Emily:

If there was like a fill line.

Claire:

That's- technology. We need that. Come on, AI. Keep up with this. Going back to, you know, just that circle of support. One of my sister's friend really struggled with supply and she was just like, you can do it. And she set up this little schedule for me. And part of me was like, this is too much. Why is I, I, I'm not like her. Like I, I can't, I have so much respect for how she fed her children. And then at the same time, I'm like, this is too much. I can't go through this again. Like it's okay if my baby's formula fed, but it really, at the same time it wasn't. And it was like, yes, it's societal and cultural, but it was also like this selfish thing that it was like this experience that I wanted. And I think there was a piece where I'm like, is this what's best for her? Is this what's best for my kids? Because like, yeah, part of it is like what I felt like I wanted to give her. One of the challenging things for my partner was seeing me go through this whole thing again, because that first night I was in the hospital by myself, he came to my sister's house where our son was and immediately was like, it was just so hard for him. And he saw how happy I was and relieved when I started bottle feeding. He really is just amazing. He knew that I just had to go through it. And he knew that I had to do this journey and that it was my body. And I just feel so supported in that. And so ultimately, it took three full months for me to fully establish breastfeeding where it was easy. I'd say around two and a half months, it started getting better. But I still had good feeds and I still had bad feeds, which is something that I worked with my counselor on to stop calling them good feeds and bad feeds because it immediately triggered my feelings towards them. Like if I had a bad feed, I'd feel frustrated. I feel angry. Like what's going on? Like, should I stop doing this? And if I had a good feed, I'm like, look at me. I'm a good mom. I can do this.

Dani:

What does a bad, what was a bad feed? Was that like difficulty with latch or felt like maybe the baby wasn't getting much? I don't know.

Emily:

Yeah. What made them feel that way?

Claire:

Mostly it came down to latch because if she latched, it meant that she drew milk and then I wouldn't have to pump as much. I could just do a quick five, 10 minute pump to just get everything out. But if she, sometimes she'd just be like, nah, I'm not going to latch today. I want to be bottle fed so I don't have to do work. And then it's like, ah, now I have to do this whole triple thing again and just felt so frustrated. And she would get really fussy and angry. And also she was such a different baby. You don't realize you have an easy baby when you have an easy baby until you have a different baby and you realize, wow, that first baby was very easy. And with my daughter, she was very hard and she had the purple crying. I don't know if you guys, yeah.

Dani:

I had one of those.

Claire:

Yeah. So tough. And interestingly enough, I ended up hiring a postpartum doula to, I hired her with my second to help me with my journey of letting go of breastfeeding because at a period of time, I was like, I need some support of someone coming into my house and just helping me with, I was just trying everything. Like I want to do some meditation and kind of some alternative stuff. She was amazing. And by the time she came in, we talked a lot about breastfeeding, but it was starting to work itself

Claire: a little bit. And then the purple crying started. And basically during the hours of 4pm and 7:

30pm,

Claire:

she would not latch. And was that due to my supply and other things going on? Probably is part of it. But also, I know people that have great breastfeeding, and when they had purple crying, the baby wouldn't latch. And there was nothing. I would just walk around the neighborhood and she'd just be screaming and screaming and screaming. And people would be staring at me. And I'm like, this is just what it is. And I blamed a lot of that on feeding and those poor feedings, those bad feedings. But I had to let go of my emotional connection to them and just call them like, this is a feed. And that's what it is. So eventually, after three months, I was able to establish breastfeeding. And I'm so glad I persevered. Would my partner say the same thing? I mean, we even, because I'm doing this podcast, we kind of brought up again. He's like, Claire, you know how I feel about breastfeeding, meh, but I'm glad it worked out for you.

Dani:

I love that for you.

Emily:

Appreciate that flexibility there.

Claire:

Yeah.

Dani:

Take it, leave it, yeah. Whatever works, right?

Claire:

Yeah. And it has been an incredible experience and I'm not, you know, anyone that's listening to this, like, one experience wasn't better than the other. Like they both were so valuable. And I am telling you right now, breast is not best because I am living proof that it really wasn't for... Maybe I don't know what was best for my kids, but I really had to listen to that journey. And what has really come up for me and even just in my schooling is learning about privilege and the privilege of breastfeeding. And I think about how privileged I was to be able to do that. I think about, I had childcare for my son. If I didn't have childcare for my son, there's no way I would have gone through this rigmarole. I was able to drive four and a half hours away to get this procedure. The procedure cost $1,000, which ended up being covered by my extended health. I spent $400 on a pump. I had a community of friends and family who dropped off meals and came over and saw my bloody nipples and all those things.

Emily:

Right

Claire:

If I was a single mom or if I didn't have money to spend money on a pump, there's so much privilege in breastfeeding and just another reason of why we should not judge people for the way they feed their babies. So through my journey, obviously, I'm really passionate the way that I speak about it, that I really want to support other people going through the same thing as me. And yes, I had my social group, but in terms of like the literature and things that I wanted to read, there's just huge gaps of what that living experience is like. If you go to the PSI website and look under specialized support resources, you can now see under breast and body feeding, there's support resources for people that are struggling with breast and body feeding. I really like Dr. Amy Brown, who wrote a little tiny sliver of a book called Breastfeeding, Trauma and Grief. And that really got me through with my son of a lot of that societal and cultural expectation that just exacerbates those feelings and really validated what I was going through.

Dani:

I think that's a great segue into maybe can you tell us a little bit about something exciting that you've been working very hard on here at PSI?

Emily:

Yeah. How are you helping folks in the perinatal period now?

Claire:

So currently, I am doing my PhD through Queen's University in healthcare quality. And what the program is all about is about health leadership, there's patient safety, and of course, healthcare quality. And this program has been absolutely life-changing. I wasn't sure where I would fit because it's such a multidisciplinary program, but all of the professors, everyone there is just like, what you want to do, we support you. And what's amazing is that I've been validated in what I'm researching by so many people, by you guys, by PSI. So many people say, this is so needed. Thank you for doing this, which just feels so amazing. And already just looking at the research that's out there, there's just huge gaps. And what people that experience, and I call it breastfeeding, body feeding loss, there's just gaps. And so part of my program, I have to do a 200-hour internship, which I am doing with PSI. and working in the social support programs. Yeah.

Dani:

Great.

Claire:

It's been absolutely amazing because I live in a rural community, and I didn't want to leave my community to do an internship, which is amazing that I was able to do it through PSI. Melissa says, if I had a nickel anytime someone said they didn't know about PSI, I'd be rich.

Dani:

Oh.

Emily:

Yeah.

Claire:

I just wish I knew about PSI when I was going through all of my postpartum challenges and just feeling so isolated, especially being in a rural community. And so I am starting a social support program. We're calling it When Breast or Body Feeding Ends Before you are Ready. So that can encompass like, if you're going back to work, or if you're just feeling challenges, and you have to stop, it could be for physical reasons, it could be for mental health reasons, just for anyone that's going through a journey and having to end that experience before you're ready. And we're starting July 17. So I think this will air after the first one. But then the next one is going to be August 21, 10 o'clock Pacific Standard Time. So stay tuned on the website for all those details.

Dani:

So Claire, is this an online support group?

Claire:

Yes, it is an online support group. The first half hour is a psychoeducational piece. And then the second, the last hour is just mothers, birthing people, sharing their experiences, learning from each other, offering each other support. I mean, as I mentioned, I felt other people's stories to be the most helpful for me and living in a rural community. Ironically, actually, Instagram helped me. I followed Low Supply Mom, and she is amazing and helped me with my journey as well. And so my hope is that we can just learn from each other and support each other. And yeah, it's going to be awesome.

Dani:

Well, we are lucky to have you and so are parents everywhere for especially folks that need some extra support in this area. They're having trouble breastfeeding, body feeding, have to stop earlier than they wanted to. Yeah. So thank you. Thanks for all your hard work, Claire.

Claire:

Yeah.

Dani:

That's great. We're really excited. We'll drop a link to the support groups in the show notes. And if anybody's listening and you missed the first meeting, check out the one that's on August 21st, 10 a.m. Pacific and get some support. Yeah.

Emily:

And they'll be able to sign up in advance. And like there's like you sign up and then you get the link and there's like a whole process.

Dani:

It doesn't cost anything. Claire, will you be at that support group?

Claire:

Yes. Well, I am facilitating it.

Dani:

Okay.

Claire:

Yeah. And even after my internship ends, I am committing to running the social support group because I'm very passionate about it. Yeah, I'm going to stay as a volunteer.

Dani:

Claire.

Emily:

As we do.

Dani:

That's incredible.

Claire:

As we do.

Emily:

Yeah.

Claire:

Well, you're hooked. Once you start with PSI, you guys know, I listen to some of your other podcast guests. You just get hooked in. You're just like, all right, I guess this is my life now.

Emily:

You're like, what else can I do? It's almost like going to like a really good buffet. Like you're like, oh I'm gonna try that and I'm gonna try that, I'm gonna try this other thing and like then you need to digest for a minute but then you can go back and get a little more, you know?

Dani:

I think I'm hungry again.

Claire:

Yeah, and then I need to bring the buffet to Canada and that's kind of-

Dani:

Yes!

Claire:

We'll see what happens but I'm trying to connect with the Canadian chapter because there's so many chapters in the states and-

Emily:

Yep.

Claire:

Yeah, it would just be amazing to have one closer to home.

Dani:

For anybody listening in Canada, you can come to the support group, right?

Claire:

Yes.

Emily:

Indeed.

Dani:

It's not just folks in the US. So check out the link in the show notes and sign yourself up if this sounds like something that would help you. So great. Well, Emily.

Emily:

Lightning round?

Dani:

Do you think it's time for the lightning round? Claire?

Claire:

I was worried about this. I was like, I need to be honest to what I'm listening and watching to. I talked to my partner about it. I was like, I think I have to tell them.

Dani:

Yeah, you better tell us the truth. I can tell if you're lying to us. I'm just kidding.

Emily:

She probably can.

Dani:

Maybe. I don't know. Okay, Claire. First question. Besides this podcast, what's your second favorite podcast? Because, you know, we know this is your favorite one.

Claire:

Absolutely. Well, I am in a toddler phase. So I like listening to Unruffled by Janet Lansbury.

Dani:

Oh, Unruffled. That's a good one.

Claire:

But I am a diehard fan of a podcast called Why Won't You Date Me that a comedian, Nicole Byer, does. And it's funny because I started it a long time ago when I was just kind of dating my partner at the time. And she was on Tinder and she'd bring in her ex-boyfriends and kind of grill them and be like, why won't you date me? And she's just been single for so long. And now she's actually really famous. Yeah. And I'm just like rooting for her to find her person. And now, unfortunately, she said she's given up. She's just going to be single forever. But it's just, it's comedians talking about love and relationships. And I just find it entertaining, and just such a switch in my brain.

Dani:

I'm going to add that to my cue.

Claire:

It's kind of fun to start from the beginning, but it's like, it's a commitment. And I was catching up on it. And I remember in 2020, she was like, this is going to be my year. And that's when I had already-

Emily:

Oh, no, that was nobody's year, my friend.

Claire:

Yeah.

Dani:

I thought that was going to be a good year, too.

Claire:

I know. I know.

Emily:

OK, are you currently binge watching or reading or listening to anything that like we need to add to our queue?

Claire:

Well, I'm watching a very Canadian show called Letterkenny.

Dani:

I've seen it.

Claire:

Oh, have you?

Dani:

Yes.

Claire:

Okay. It's quite vulgar. That's why I was like, see, I'm being honest here. I'm being very honest.

Dani:

I appreciate that.

Claire:

I'm glad you laughed because it's very Canadian in the humor. It's funny because I was saying, you know, some comedies you can kind of tune out a little bit. And it's not like the plot is hard, but the dialogue and the way they talk is just really quick and really witty. But...

Dani:

Yeah, it's not like there's a laugh track in the background, like a 1990s sitcom. Like, we're all laughing now. That was funny. Nope.

Claire:

Yeah.

Dani:

It's quick. Like, just like you said, quick and witty. And...

Claire:

Yeah.

Dani:

Is it very rural Canadian? Yes. Okay. Yes. I have a friend that

Claire:

Yes.

Dani:

Okay.

Claire:

Yes. I have a friend that lives in rural Ontario. And he's like, it is literally exactly like this.

Dani:

Nailed it.

Claire:

It's so great.

Emily:

Okay. Now I'm curious. Okay.

Claire:

I'm also, of course, like I read books like this, like Bottled Up because I love reading about different things about infant feeding and society and culture. But I, as you can tell, I also like turning my brain off and I just read Green Lights, the Matthew McConaughey book.

Dani:

Oh.

Claire:

You guys heard about that one or read that one?

Emily:

I've heard about it.

Dani:

Oh, you know what? I'm into audio books. I bet that audio book is...

Claire:

Yes. Because he reads it.

Dani:

Totally probably nails that, yeah.

Claire:

And then I'm also reading– sorry I'm a big reader– and I'm also reading this, Seven Fallen Feathers because it's also a canadian book. It's about racism death and hard truths in a northern city and it's... yeah, I'm canadian and so I'm just promoting some canadian content here.

Dani:

Hey,

Emily:

Yeah.

Dani:

we're here for it. What is your best parenting hack?

Emily:

Good question.

Claire:

Oh, I've been thinking about this and I was like, this one is not, I feel like it's the oldest parenting hack ever. And it's called snacks, but it's very key because my kids are one and a half and three and a half. And I have a Thule where they sit side by side and they literally just fight all the time. My daughter just wants to grab my son's hair and grab his legs and they're fighting with each other. And every morning, because I'm very determined to walk them to daycare, because they each get a bowl of raspberries, which is not cheap. I am telling you that, but–

Emily:

No.

Claire:

It is the only way to get them not to fight and hit each other. And it's just been my saving grace, which I know this isn't a new parenting hack, but it is.

Emily:

So food bribery.

Claire:

Yeah. Healthy food bribery.

Dani:

Yeah.

Emily:

Like want some hummus to go along with that? Yeah. No judgment here. That sounds great.

Claire:

Just like how we'll give you some popcorn after this, uh, podcast.

Emily:

Yeah, we owe some people some popcorn.

Dani:

For all of the listeners, uh, there's...

Claire:

Yeah.

Dani:

it's been somebody who's wanted to snack,

Claire:

Yeah.

Dani:

interrupted our recording a couple times because they wanted to pop popcorn. It's the summer, okay? Everybody's home, we're podcasting under harsh conditions.

Emily:

Maybe you should have eaten your lunch!

Emily: Next question:

what is one thing that today you would go back in time and tell pre-recovery you?

Claire:

Oh, that's such a good question it honestly just gives me shivers because there's just– just that you're doing amazing and you are giving what's best to your baby and there's just no right way to do it and just to enjoy every moment. Yeah

Dani:

There's no right way.

Claire:

Absolutely. It's the hardest and best thing that you'll ever do. And I went through some super dark times, but now I'm like, if I didn't do that, I wouldn't be doing my PhD. I wouldn't be working for PSI. I wouldn't be able to support my friends in the right way. And yeah, it has been such a gift and now such a passion. And I'm, yeah, I don't know where my life will lead because I've mostly been doing mental health work for youth and children and working in the schools. And yeah, who knows where, where my life will lead.

Emily:

Yeah.

Dani:

Claire, what is one way that you'll show yourself some radical love today?

Claire:

You're going to love how radical this is. And when I say love, you might laugh, it's mowing my lawn.

Emily:

Oh, yeah.

Dani:

I like doing that.

Claire:

Okay.

Dani:

It's like very satisfying, very methodical.

Emily:

Right up there with weeding for me in terms of like, yeah.

Claire:

Yes. Well, we were away camping. So our lawn's a bit outrageous and it just is like, not only does it, I was like, okay, well, I don't really have time to exercise, but this gives me a little bit of exercise, some time away from the kids. And then you look out at your lawn. You're just like, I did that. It looks amazing.

Dani:

Damn. I'm good.

Claire:

Yeah.

Dani:

Yeah.

Claire:

So yeah, it's a little thing. I love it.

Dani:

I'm into it.

Claire:

What about you guys?

Dani:

Oh, well.

Emily:

Oh.

Dani:

Oh, the tables have turned. Maybe some gardening. I mean, I'm going to give somebody a snack before they accost me.

Emily:

Yeah, before anything gets real hectic around here, you know what I'm saying?

Dani:

I'm going to get myself outside because I've been inside all day.

Emily:

Yeah.

Dani:

I'm an outside creature, you know.

Claire:

Mm-hmm.

Dani:

So.

Emily:

I might crochet something. I keep getting out the yarn and then, like, putting it back and then getting it out and putting it back. I'm going to make something.

Dani:

Oh.

Claire:

That sounds like fun.

Emily:

If folks wanted to get access to the program that you're doing, or if folks wanted to learn more, like where is the best place for them to go? Is it through the website in the get help section? Like where do they go direct line? Well, underneath the specialized

Claire:

support resources on the PSI website. There's resources there. And...

Dani:

Perfect. We'll put a link to that in the show notes. There is one last question though. Very important one that Emily needs to ask.

Emily:

How do you take your water?

Claire:

Water, water break.

Dani:

How do you take it, Claire? Do you like, do you like water with bubbles? Are you into sparkling water? Are you like, do you like your water flat? Straw? How do you drink it? You take your water through coffee beans? Tell us.

Emily:

Yeah.

Claire:

We do bubbly waters, but you know what? When I'm really thirsty I like just doing water and I like doing with this little straw because it really forces me to drink water and water is delicious.

Dani:

Yeah.

Emily:

There's something about a straw like it makes it easier.

Claire:

Yeah, I agree.

Dani:

Well, thanks for that, Claire. This was lovely.

Claire:

Yeah.

Dani:

Emily, you want to take us out?

Emily:

Claire, thank you so much for coming on today, and for sharing your story and for talking about all things breast, chest and body feeding. I think it's really important to like dive into all of the details about this issue because like it can come up at any point during the journey for folks and I also would like to thank you for coming on as our first intern guest at PSI. Very exciting.

Claire:

Thank you for having me.

Dani:

Yeah. Thanks, Claire. Thanks for tuning in to the I Am One podcast. Check out today's show notes where we'll drop links to all the important things that we mentioned in this episode. Please consider sharing about I Am One on social media and following and rating our show wherever it is that you listen to podcasts. It only takes a minute of your time and, well, that'll help our collective mission of bringing resources and local support to folks worldwide. From everyone here at PSI, thanks again for listening.

Head Shot

Dani Giddens (she/her)

Host
Head Shot

Emily Jankowski (she/her)

Co-host