I AM ONE Podcast by Postpartum Support International

LISA McCARTY - I AM ONE IVF Mom, Birth Trauma Survivor, Writer & Peer Support Group Leader

• Episode 40

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TRIGGER WARNING: Traumatic Birth,  Intrusive Thoughts

On Today’s episode, we’re sitting down with Lisa McCarty, a women’s health advocate, a mom, and a writer - who has long amplified her voice through words on paper. Today, we’re in for a treat when Lisa’s words will travel straight from her mouth and into our earbuds. We’ll chat about what it felt like to step away from a successful career - something she had never anticipated doing, managing a flood of mixed emotions after IVF, and the importance of sharing stories. Well talk infertility, anxiety, PPD & OCD. So without any further ado, please sit back, relax, and enjoy this episode with our friend, Lisa.

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Dani:

Welcome to the I Am One podcast, where we talk to perinatal mental health advocates, professionals, and educators supporting the mission of Postpartum Support International. We're not afraid to ask our guests about the hardest parts of pregnancy and postpartum because we know that PSI has tools and resources to help in every situation, and everyone should know about them.

Emily:

Whether you are among the 1 in 5 moms, 1 in 10 dads, one of many trans or non-binary parents, or you're one professional or advocate committed to helping folks in need, you are also one of us.

Dani:

I'm your host, Dani Giddens, and I am one in five. I didn't know what to call what I was experiencing after becoming a parent and felt too scared at the time to speak up.

Emily:

Not anymore. Now she won't stop talking about it. Hi, I'm your co-host, Emily Jankowski. I'm also one in five, and I want you to know that mental health complications are common but they aren't normal.

Dani:

There's something powerful in knowing I am one of many. Whether you're already connected to the perinatal mental health world, looking for new ways to support parents and families, or just want to hang out with us in your earbuds, we are so glad that you tuned in.

Emily:

Of course they want to hang out with us. We're lovely. Seriously though, the views, thoughts, and opinions expressed on this pod are the speaker own. Tuning into this podcast is, spoiler alert, not a replacement for therapy, but PSI can help you find a therapist. We could also help you find a psychiatrist, a support group, or Waldo.

Dani:

Emily, Waldo? Come on, we don't know where Waldo is.

Emily:

Okay, fine. PSI help seekers can find peer support and resources in their area.

Dani:

At PSI, we want you to know you are not alone, you are not to blame, and with help, you will be well. On today's episode, we're sitting down with Lisa McCarty, a women's health advocate, a mom, and a writer who has long amplified her voice through words on paper. Today we're in for a treat when Lisa's words will travel straight from her mouth and into our earbuds. We'll chat about what it felt like to step away from a successful career, something she had never anticipated doing, managing a flood of emotions after IVF, and the importance of sharing stories. We'll talk infertility, anxiety, PPD, we'll talk OCD. So without any further ado, please sit back, relax, and enjoy this episode with our friend, Lisa. Lisa, welcome to the podcast studio. And welcome to our earliest recording sesh on record. It might not be early for you. I mean, you're on the East Coast, 11 a.m., but it is 8 o'clock a.m. on the West Coast.

Lisa:

Thank you for having me, and I'm sorry.

Dani:

No, no. We are so happy that you're here and we're really excited to chat all things perinatal mental health this morning.

Emily:

Yeah.

Dani:

So thanks for being here.

Lisa:

Thank you for having me.

Dani:

Yeah. Lisa, I think we're ready to just jump right in. Could you give us a little bit of an introduction to who you are?

Lisa:

Sure. I am a writer and a women's health advocate and I'm also a mom. I have two kids. My son is five and my daughter is 11, going to be 12 this year.

Emily:

Are you okay?

Dani:

We have two of those between Emily and I.

Lisa:

Having a little bit of trouble with that number because that makes me feel older, but also wiser in my age of motherhood. So I'm grateful for that. Yeah. So that's kind of who I am. I'm doing all the things, doing all the things.

Dani:

Could you tell us a little bit about how perinatal mental health complications have played a role in your life personally, professionally, all that?

Lisa:

Sure. So after my daughter was born in 2012, I had some complications after delivery and I had an emergency D&C. And so I think that was obviously not part of my birth plan. In my mind, prior to that, during pregnancy, I knew nothing. You know, I struggled with infertility for a long time to even have her. It was a few years before we even were able to get pregnant. And she was my first round of IVF. And so the pregnancy itself, I was anxious, I would say throughout, just because it had taken us a while to get pregnant in the first place. But then to have complications after delivery sort of was an added factor that I didn't expect. I would definitely say that, you know, my doctors checked on me physically, but I don't think that the checklist that they provide at six weeks, which everyone is very familiar with, the six week checking point, you know, where they have you fill out some arbitrary, like eight to 10 questions to say, yes, are you feeling anxious? Yes. Are you, you know, have you had any thoughts of, you know, whatever. And I think I sort of thought, that's it? Like, this is this is the check in? This is the mental health check in? And at that point, I was actually seeing a therapist. So luckily I had the support system in place, but it took me a while to kind of be able to talk about a lot of this stuff as far as like to my husband, you know, who I'm sure was tired of hearing about all the things pregnancy, but as far as perinatal mental health and how it impacted me, I would say it kind of onset during pregnancy as expected, just sort of the jitters of becoming a a mother, you know, anticipation of things going wrong because of my struggles to conceive. And then also afterward with complications that I didn't expect, I didn't know that I was going to have more time to recover. That was definitely like threw me for a loop. And I, I felt sort of unsure of how to deal with it. And so I talked to my therapist about it and it's not some magical pill you can take to just make it all go away. You have to just go through it. And actually at the time when she came because we had struggled for so long, I was actually working like 80 hours a week prior to having her.

Dani:

Oh, Lisa, zero stars. Do not recommend.

Lisa:

Do not recommend.

Dani:

Oh no.

Lisa:

Yeah. I was going through treatment. I was trying to get pregnant and then we had her. And so three months after I had her and all the complications, I sort of, you know, worked through that physically, but mentally I was in a not good place. And I, you know, talked with my husband about it. And had the means and the ability to have me step back from work. And so I actually resigned from my job and I was like up for promotion and doing really well. And I realized that like my physical and mental health were not where they needed to be. And I just wanted to be with her. So I made the choice to step away from my career, which was not what I expected. And it's not what I wanted because it was like a grieving process of the life that I had before I became a mom.

Dani:

Oh yeah. It took so long to get, you had worked so hard to get there and then, oh, this isn't what I expected at all.

Lisa:

Yeah. And then after, so I quit my job and my boss was like, of course, shocked, you know, he's like, wait, you're supposed to take my job. I'm moving up. But like, what do you mean you're leaving? I was like bawling in his office, which I don't think I've ever cried in front of a boss before. And it was just, I think it was the combination of the hormones re sort of stabilizing. And then also the grief of ending a part of my life and starting kind of a new part of my life.

Emily:

Yeah. Cause you worked really hard for that too.

Lisa:

Yeah.

Emily:

Right. Like...

Lisa:

And so many women talk about this, but it's like that conflicting position of your career and motherhood kind of trying to find the balance. And there's no real balance. Like we know that. Something ultimately suffers, it's either you and your mental health, or it's the job, or it's, you know, the kid isn't getting as much attention and either, you know, in any of those scenarios, it's not ideal. And so I chose to step back from the job because at that time, it didn't feel like I could do all the things as well as I wanted to. And that's not to say that you can't, It's just that at the point of time, I felt overwhelmed and like I needed to kind of re-center myself and figure out how to take care of myself and take care of a living child and the house and all the things. So I think that was like kind of my first entree to what it means to be a mother and how to manage mental health. And so I continued through therapy and that was helpful, but not a lot of people around me knew what was going on. And I didn't really talk to other moms much about it. And I did actually, it's funny. I didn't even think of this until now, but I started a mom's group.

Dani:

Like a play group?

Lisa:

Like a meetup kind of thing.

Dani:

Oh, okay.

Lisa:

Where meetup app was like a thing. I don't even know what the app is. This is like, I'm really dating myself now, but this is like a decade ago. So those, you know, Gen Z moms that are listening, millennial moms, like, you know, don't judge. So I, you know, I like signed myself up for some free app and I like created like a mom's group. And it was nice to kind of commiserate around early motherhood with them. That was, that was a connecting point. And it felt like I was less alone, but really still wasn't talking about what was going on in my head. It was more like, oh, you know, I have all these wonderful snacks and I like put myself together. And, you know, like I just was trying to fill the part. And I think in hindsight, I look back now a decade- over a decade later, and I say, gosh, I really was like trying so hard to fill the part when in actuality, like I already was the part and I just wasn't accepting that of myself. Like I just I thought I had to change myself to adapt instead. Like I just needed to focus on being a mom and like whatever I was was OK because we were all like a hot mess. Like, you know, we all came to the meetup together and we were like, we all looked cute in our little outfits. But like, I think we were all just exhausted. We were all just burnt out from the lack of sleep and all the things that early motherhood bring. I mean, you guys can relate, right?

Emily:

Yeah.

Dani:

Oh, yeah.

Lisa:

It's so hard. It's so hard, that transition.

Emily:

Okay. So it almost seems like you were able to commiserate around like the logistics.

Lisa:

Yes.

Emily:

Of new parenthood, which are very difficult. You know, like, how do we get the kid to sleep? What method are you using for teaching them not to be a little monster or whatever once they're toddlers, like whatever it is, right?

Lisa:

Serving them the perfect food and you know, like that pressure to sort of do all the things right the first time, because that, you know, as especially first time mothers, we put that, I think we put a lot of pressure on ourselves, But then we also feel the pressure of others, you know, that sort of peer pressure, like, oh, what snacks are you giving your kiddo? And oh, I need to buy those. Like now I feel like I'm giving my kid the wrong snack.

Emily:

Yep.

Lisa:

It's so hard.

Emily:

And it wasn't until like some article was written by, oh, my gosh, they like- the U.S. government started like a Bureau of Children in like the early 20th century. And there was an article that was written that was basically like, mothers can no longer trust their instincts. They need to look to experts to parent their kids. And so every mother since then has gone, well, what kind of food am I supposed to feed them? How do I get them to go to sleep? Like, tell me, insert, you know, insert parenting style, right?

Lisa:

There's so many pieces of that though. Cause I, so I nursed with my daughter and I was nursing her to sleep.

Dani:

Oh.

Lisa:

I mean, everybody, everybody who is a first time mom who has the ability to breastfeed and with my son, I wasn't able to do it as long, but it's to each his own. Um, I think it's so hard because it's like the pressure to breastfeed, pressure, you know, don't give formula like, okay. And now we are 10 years later, like it's okay to give formula. And then the snacks that you're providing.

Emily:

What do you want from us?

Dani:

Yeah.

Lisa:

The motherhood mental load is so heavy. And it's not just that it's actually like getting yourself out of bed to function, to get dressed, to put makeup on, to do your hair, you know, like to look like a human being and also keep this other human alive. That is- that in itself feels like a lot. So, I mean, I think these groups were amazing and I highly recommend for any new mom that is in that, in the thick of the transition of first time motherhood to absolutely like connect with other moms who are first time moms. And it was the best thing I ever did. It's probably what got me through it because my husband was traveling constantly at that point. So it literally was just me and her alone all day long. And so that is enough to make someone feel isolated and like you are failing at every turn or you don't know what you're doing at every turn. You know, like, am I putting the diaper on right? You know, there's a diaper rash. So what do I do now? Call the pediatrician all day long.

Emily:

Because we have to look to experts.

Lisa:

Right. And so I think it adds to the pressure, but it also it's sort of like disheartening to hear. And I remember seeing those articles. And I still do to some degree, but I really think as moms and as women, we need to like, come back to that center space again and say like, our intuition, our gut feeling is always the right answer, whatever it is. If your kid is on a screen, you know, for example, like my toddler was because I was exhausted. She wasn't sleeping, you know, all the things, it's okay. In a nutshell, like she's turned out fine. Like all of those choices that I made in my early motherhood, I don't regret them. And I try not to guilt myself for choices that I made. And honestly, actually, I can put this in as a positive. And I think we sometimes forget about the wins. I have literally saved her life like multiple times because she stuck a quarter in her mouth at age two.

Dani:

Okay. That's just...

Emily:

don't do that. God, kids.

Dani:

Yeah, knock it off.

Lisa:

Heimlich maneuver, husband is out of town. 100% of the time this ever happens. Always. I turned literally, I had done the child CPR, okay? I did all the things you were supposed to do. Even in those perfect scenarios where you do all the things right, it didn't work. So I turned her upside down and hit her on the back and it popped out. And thank God, because her lips were turning blue. Like it was one of those motherhood moments where you're like, thank God I'm doing something right, right now, you know.

Dani:

did she just go, did she kind of just like pop back up and then like move on with her day? And you're like, oh my- and nobody saw it happen.

Lisa:

I was panicking. You know, throughout this sort of mental load journey from the beginning with her, I think I have also learned to laugh when I needed to laugh because I called my husband, you know, of course, after I talked to the pediatrician, like, is there anything else I need to do? Like she's breathing, you know, and they're like, no, she's good. Like if you've got the quarter out, she's fine. Just, you know, keep an eye on her. It was only like that 30 seconds probably. But now we can laugh about it because it's like one of those moments in parenthood where you literally have zero control over what's happening. And the only thing you can do is try to protect your child and try not to go insane in the moment. Right? I mean, keep your mental health in check, I guess.

Dani:

Part of the checklist with the nurse that you called probably should have been like, and Lisa, how are you doing right now? Are you sitting down and breathing? Do you have a glass of water?

Lisa:

Well, and that's why I say I can laugh now. And we even laughed probably like when he got home from his trip, because to this day, stuff only happens when he's gone.

Dani:

Oh, yeah. Like you had one job, keep the child alive, swallow as a quarter.

Lisa:

Well, this is our job. They really should give you a certification when they're born to say, you have to just keep this child alive for the next 18 years and then it will be their job after that.

Dani:

Then after that, you need to keep them on your insurance until they're 26. I'm just kidding.

Lisa:

And then you have to check on them constantly to make sure they're paying their bills.

Dani:

They're going to need a little financial help.

Emily:

Every time you take them to the pediatrician, you should get a stamp. And then when you got 10 stamps, you get to get a prize.

Lisa:

Right.

Dani:

Yeah.

Emily:

Like every time you like... that, they grow or they learn a new word, you get a stamp. Right?

Lisa:

Oh, I like that. Let's do this.

Dani:

Oh, it's like, you know, when you get that, that I voted sticker.

Emily:

Yes.

Dani:

Yeah.

Lisa:

Oh my God.

Emily:

That's, that's it. That's how we're going to solve, solve everything. I'm kidding. But it would help. A little recognition would help.

Lisa:

Yes, please.

Dani:

Hello.

Emily:

So this community that you created was part of your...

Lisa:

Identity? I mean, I think...

Emily:

And part of your like seeking help, would you say? What else did you do to kind of get yourself back to neutral again?

Lisa:

You know what I actually started doing when this was like a thing, not body pump. What was the thing that everybody was into like 10 years ago?

Dani:

Oh, TRX?

Lisa:

It was like where you... like Insanity. Remember the Insanity workouts?

Dani:

Oh, oh!

Emily:

Oh, God. Yeah.

Lisa:

Okay. So I was like six months postpartum. Like I had to like kind of wait until the body was like, I was really trying to get the body back, you know, like...

Dani:

Yeah.

Lisa:

Really, like, can we just stop saying that phrase?

Dani:

Yeah.

Lisa:

But I didn't know I was, I was like, okay, I want to be the hot mom, you know, like, I want to look good. And I was just not focused on the internal, it was the external. And I just thought I was doing all the things right. Meanwhile, still not dealing with the mental health piece as much as I should have been. But yeah, so I started doing Insanity workouts. And then like a week in, because I was doing them like every day, like the jumping and like, oh my God, it's so, so ridiculous. And then I had to go back to my- sorry. And then I had to go back to my physical therapist because I literally injured myself. but I can laugh now because it's so funny I'm like what was I thinking?

Dani:

She's probably like, you're doing what?

Lisa:

I was seeing her prior for like complications from infertility like I was having headaches and neck pain and all you know like my body was all out of whack

Emily:

Oh yeah.

Lisa:

And then so then I hadn't seen her in like two years and I started doing Insanity workouts and she's like, oh you're back. What did you do?

Emily:

She's like, yeah, I threw out my sacrum.

Lisa:

Yeah, I literally like my SI joints were like all out of whack from delivery. This is what they you know, they don't talk about the mental load. And they don't talk about like the physical change that your body goes through after having a child that you literally are never the same person again.

Emily:

No.

Lisa:

You want to be the same person, I wanted to be, and I think that is part of that pressure we talked about. So anyway, yeah. So I went to see her and then I was able to resume exercise, but I did it in a much more practical way. Like I started doing elliptical instead of, you know, like the hardcore, like the jumping, she's like, okay, you need to let your body like heal from having a child.

Dani:

Yeah.

Emily:

Yeah. What is it? The prostaglandin that like ends up in your body when you're like midway through to the end of pregnancy. Prostaglandin is what causes all of your joints to loosen.

Lisa:

Yes. So she said it's essentially like laxity. Yeah. So like,

Emily:

yes,

Lisa:

through pregnancy that happens. And then postpartum as well, which I obviously didn't know, I wouldn't have been jumping in my townhouse doing like high intensity work.

Emily:

Everything's fine!

Lisa:

My small child watching me like...

Dani:

Mommy's getting her body back, be right there!

Lisa:

As long as you look good. That's what matters.

Emily:

Hashtag priorities.

Lisa:

Meanwhile, yeah. So you asked like what else I did to, you know, get support. I would say it was connecting with other moms. And then many of the women around me were already having children. So I was like, basically like the last one, it seemed.

Dani:

Oh, okay.

Lisa:

I also felt like I was playing catch up for a while. Like aside from my first time mom's group, like everybody else in my sort of circle of friends had either already had children and were on like their second or third or fourth, you know, like good for you. But for me, I was like, you know, just trying to keep up with the first one.

Emily:

You're like, wait up. I've got this one.

Lisa:

Yeah, I got it. I got it. I'm a hot mess, but it's okay. So yeah, so things got better. And I continued with my therapist. And then I actually was diagnosed with OCD, which I didn't know a lot about. And I think it's important to talk about it because a lot of women with anxiety don't realize there's different types of anxiety. And so as a mom, I became obsessed and I will at some point write about this too. I do think we as moms obsess about things being right anyway. And we want, you know, like it's almost like that joke. There's probably like a Far Side or like a- that's, that's a dated reference, but...

Dani:

I'm picking up what you're putting down.

Emily:

Yeah.

Dani:

We get it.

Lisa:

It's like, no, honey, don't bother doing it. I'm going to do it myself to get it right.

Dani:

Yeah.

Lisa:

The controlling thing, which I think as moms, we want to have control, which again, we don't have control. They are not robots. We cannot program them. As much as my therapist told me that like a hundred times, I literally had to be reminded constantly, like, why aren't they sleeping when I want them to sleep?

Dani:

I've done all the things correctly. Why is this not then producing the results I'm looking for?

Lisa:

Yeah. And he literally had to say the words. He's like, because they are not robots, you cannot program them. And I'm like, why not? Like, why?

Dani:

And you're like, does not compute.

Lisa:

Right. Not a marionette. I learned more because I actually ended up working with an OCD specialist. And OCD is essentially obsessive compulsive disorder. But a lot of people sort of misinterpret what that means. They think you go to the sink and you wash your hands 42 times. Like, that's not me. I actually was more obsessed with everything being right. I had to make sure she went to bed at a certain time every night. I mean, every mother kind of does a variation of this, but like to the extreme. And I would be anxious if she woke up at night because I felt like I had to get her back to sleep. And then without sleep, as we know, that affects our mental health, too. And so I was just exhausted and trying to make everything perfect all the time. And it just it's not possible. And so I started to realize as I got further into toddlerhood, the more that I couldn't control her, the more that she sort of became her own human being. The more that I had to just let go a little bit. The OCD kind of found other things to think about. It was like worrying that like, if I'm working too much, because I did start working again, I started my own business like several months after I had her. I quit one job and then started another because it gave me what I thought was the freedom to work when I wanted. But in actuality, it actually was more work.

Emily:

Yeah. Make my own hours,

Lisa:

Yeah.

Emily:

I said, it'll be fine.

Dani:

That'll fix everything.

Lisa:

Yeah. Right. I know there is definitely a misperception of being your own boss and mothering at the same time. Like people just think, oh, you're working from home. So like, you know, you can do whatever you need to do and you have care. Nope. Don't have that either. Like I didn't have a nanny, you know I didn't have help, so it was a big struggle. So anyway, so yeah, I guess I kind of transitioned through that, learning more about myself and OCD and what I learned in my therapy with, so he spent basically 30 years in practice. He actually just retired like a year ago, but I was working with him for a long time. And he taught me that you can't change the thought going into your mind, but you can change your response to it. Cognitive behavioral therapy, CBT, is the method that he used to help me understand that some of my intrusive thoughts that I had and OCD thinking could actually be changed. Like I could actually change my response to, for example, like, let's say she wouldn't take a nap. I would obsess about trying to get her back to sleep and like rocking her to sleep and nursing her to sleep and doing all the things that I knew how to do, which every mother does.

Emily:

I have a question. Were you also thinking about the laundry list of things you were not going to get done because she wasn't sleeping?

Lisa:

Yeah, of course. I mean, I think every mother does, but I also thought that I was failing. And with OCD, what you do is you think to the extreme. So I thought to the extreme, if she didn't take a nap, she was going to be a disaster at bedtime and then nobody was going to get any sleep. And then tomorrow I was going to be a mess. You know, like it sort of spirals into...

Dani:

Yeah. Oh, yeah. You go, you're five miles down the road in your brain.

Lisa:

Yeah. You're like from here to here. And my husband's like, dude, just everything's going to be okay. You know, he's like my grounded force and he's so laid back. And it's so nice to have that balance, especially when you have any form of anxiety as a mother, which we all, you know, have to some degree. So the more that I learned about myself and the way that my brain worked and the way that I could not control my thoughts, but control my response. I would push myself to do things that I was afraid of. Like, for example, if she didn't take a nap, then I would just let her lay in bed. It didn't have to be an anxiety inducing thing. And it could just be like a release of control and letting whatever was meant to happen, happen. And like take a nap while she was in her bed. She's safe in her room. I could see her on the monitor, you know, like and sort of releasing that control. And so I was changing my response instead of being anxious, I let myself have a break.

Dani:

That must have been really hard at first.

Lisa:

It was. Yeah.

Dani:

Was it? Yeah.

Lisa:

Yeah, it was. And I think the biggest lesson I learned, like through the process of her growth, because I had to continue doing that in every phase, every time. And you know this, you know, as moms, like every time they change, every time there's a transition or a milestone, your whole body is like, what is happening? Why? Oh, she must be teething. Maybe there's something wrong. Maybe she has an ear infection. You go into solution mode in trying to figure it out.

Emily:

Yeah. Because whatever tricks you had used before that worked, now don't.

Lisa:

Yeah. And so it's a lot of juggling.

Emily:

It's like someone erased the programming that I put in there. And now it-

Lisa:

Right.

Emily:

Now it doesn't work anymore.

Lisa:

Right. Again, they're not robots, but we think they are. And so like, why can they not remember what they learned three months ago, you know, or they were sleeping 12 hours. And now, oh, my God, she's waking up three times a night. What am I doing wrong? And then of course, we default to what am I doing wrong?

Emily:

Oh, God, right?

Lisa:

It's such a vicious cycle of thinking where you go from, I'm doing a great job, I saved their life. I got a quarter out of their throat to, you know, and I made some new mom friends, and they probably think that I'm doing a terrible job. But it's really nice to connect. And then to, you know, my kids not sleeping. So I think there's just so many sort of moving parts constantly that you really have to realize. And it's easier said than done. And I can say this now, because my son is five, and we're like kind of through some of the harder parts of the early years. But even now, he is his own person. You know, I think some of that is just releasing control, recognizing there are only 1440 minutes a day, you can only do so much, you're only one person, and you're doing the best that you can. I mean, I think that's the best possible advice that I can give with motherhood in general. It's so hard. It really is.

Dani:

Yeah.

Lisa:

And I have to remind myself that I like I need to post-it on my computer that says, if it doesn't get done today, it will be okay.

Dani:

Yeah.

Lisa:

As long as your kid is like healthy and, you know, happy and being fed and has a house over their head. And you are making some time for yourself in the day. For me, it was naps when she was napping, you know, like they say, sleep when the baby sleeps. Yeah. Right. It's such a joke because she gave up her nap at like two. So like...

Emily:

I got stuff to do.

Lisa:

Right. Exactly. But with him, I did things differently. I actually hired a sleep coach because I was like, I don't know what I'm doing because it's been, you know, so many, there's like six year age gap. You know, we struggled to have him. It took about four years and then I had multiple losses. And so I was an anxious mess for that pregnancy, even worse than the first one.

Emily:

Of course.

Lisa:

And then I had more complications after he was born, which took four months to recover because I had severe anemia from postpartum hemorrhage.

Dani:

Oh, wow. Wow, Lisa.

Lisa:

Yeah, so awful. And again, the pressure to come back to yourself. But this time, I did things differently because I recognized I needed help. I needed my husband. And I also didn't talk a lot about this to anyone after I had my second, because I had struggled for so long to have him, I didn't want to complain.

Dani:

Oh, you were worried about how it would look.

Lisa:

It was like that need to be grateful for what you have, because of course I was. Because some women walk away from infertility with nothing. And I know many of them that are struggling with it now. And I still see that side. Like we are so lucky to have what we have.

Emily:

But just like those women can feel two things. They can feel happy for a friend and jealous and sad at the same time. We can feel grateful and also super annoyed and overwhelmed. Like, it's okay.

Lisa:

And well, I would even say isolated and depressed because after I had him, I was devastated that my body wasn't, not only wasn't back to where it was, but it was in a terrible place. And I was like, couldn't even get around the house.

Dani:

Oh, hey, did you think about doing Insanity workouts?

Lisa:

Yes.

Dani:

I'm just kidding. I'm joking.

Lisa:

No, I literally couldn't get up and down the stairs. Like I was a mess and I was on iron because they had to check my iron level every few weeks. So like I was a mess, but what I did recognize and what I did learn and what I did change in my way of thinking, thanks to therapy and thanks to asking for help, which I do realize now it is okay to ask for help. If you're listening to this right now, and you are struggling, and you feel like you're failing, you're not. Just please know that because wherever you are, it's okay. I had days that were horrible, and I had days that were better, but I asked for help that I needed. I mean, I can't say enough about my husband because he was doing a lot of the work. I actually feel like I was almost on vacation to some degree because I was still getting up with the baby and nursing and all the things, but like he was doing the heavy lifting and taking care of our other child and all the things, so. So it's okay to ask for help. And I think support system wise, it was the mom's group at first, it was therapy, but it was also delegating things like when I couldn't do them. So like his mom came into town after our complications and after my son was born and she did the cooking, cause I couldn't do anything, but it was like one of moments where you're like, stop. And you're just like, close your eyes, like, I'm so grateful to have a support system, you know, because if you don't use that support system, then you literally are doing all of it. And then you're just burning yourself out.

Dani:

Exactly.

Lisa:

Not good.

Dani:

Yeah. Lisa, you're also, you're a writer. When did writing about motherhood, like come into being?

Lisa:

So I actually went, when I was in college, I actually got a degree in creative writing and I wanted to be an English professor.

Emily:

Same.

Lisa:

Did you? Oh, that's great.

Dani:

Emily too.

Lisa:

Oh, yay. My dad told me after I graduated, he's like, well, teachers don't make a lot of money. Writers don't make a lot of money. He's like, you're going to need to find another occupation. And I was like, okay. And I minored in art. And so I was like, oh, can I be an artist? And he's like, nope, they don't make money either. And so, um...

Dani:

Thanks dad.

Lisa:

Yeah. Thanks dad. He worked for the government for a long time, and so he, you know, he's sort of like a rational military man. Like he knew what worked and what didn't. And he also wanted me to be successful, obviously. It's like looking after me, you know, we were talking about like taking care of our kids. Like he wanted me to be able to pay my bills.

Dani:

Yeah.

Lisa:

And so he's preparing me for the world and, and my mom did the same. So I actually put writing kind of on hold and ended up doing business development. And I was like a people person on the outside.

Dani:

Yeah.

Lisa:

Internally, I was like, God, this is exhausting. You know, I'm like an introverted extrovert. Like I love talking to people and I love these conversations. But I also like to be at home with my family and not talk to anyone. You know what I'm saying? As moms, it's like, you have to be social, but you can't handle all that you need a break. Yeah. Anyway, so I kind of shifted career and I've always been a writer. I wrote poetry throughout life. But then I think what changed everything for me was when I started my own business, when a few months, it was like six months after Ella was born, almost 12 years ago, I started doing PR and communications and copy editing and writing press releases. And so I was kind of using all the things I knew, but in a different capacity. And then after I had my son, when we were basically done with infertility, finally, after 10 years, I finally felt like I could talk about it. Like it took, it took some time. So over the last like couple of years, basically, I've just been writing poetry. And so I actually have a poetry page that's separate than my other, I kind of hide in the poetry community. And it's like, you know, all the things from grief to mental health to motherhood, parenting in general, to loss, pregnancy loss. I mean, it's all the things. And then I started realizing like some of the things I was writing about motherhood and infertility and pregnancy loss could potentially help other people. And because towards the end of my journey, when other friends revealed to me that they had a miscarriage and that they also struggled to get pregnant and that they also were depressed in motherhood and they also had postpartum depression, which I had when I was weaning from breastfeeding from my son. There were so many things that I like all of a sudden was writing about. And so I wrote a poem about having my son because it took so long. And it was actually published on Motherly. That was my first poem. I was like, oh, my gosh, people want to read what I'm writing like this feels and then all these comments and people sharing it. And it felt like that motherhood group that I met, you know, the one that saved me in the first year of motherhood, who I still talk to a few of them, some of them have moved away, but we still stay in touch. And we're still friends on Facebook, you know?

Dani:

Yeah.

Lisa:

And it's so funny to see their kids like all grown up. But those stories, those words that you connect with other people and saying, that happened to me too. And I felt depressed, or I felt isolated, or I felt like I just wasn't worth anything, or whatever the feeling is, it felt like I could do something. So I actually did another piece for Motherly. And then I sort of shifted and started writing personal essays. And so now I do both. So I wrote a piece for HuffPost, actually two pieces for HuffPost. My editor was amazing. He let me talk about miscarriage. So the first piece I had published last year was "I had four miscarriages in a year, two words changed everything". And that piece was about my diagnosis of Asherman syndrome that was essentially like my last year of trying to conceive and it was to help other women feel less alone. And so they know that you can talk about miscarriage because I don't think a lot of people do.

Emily:

Oh, for sure not.

Lisa:

Yeah. And then there was one other piece that I had published earlier this year that was about almost dying in childbirth twice, which is a major problem. And it's mostly among African American women and women of color because of the issue with equal access to care inaccess to care in general. And so I felt really like I needed to tell that story because number one, women don't speak up enough and advocate for themselves.

Emily:

Or when they try to, they're ignored.

Lisa:

Yes. Dismissed. I was dismissed by my doctor the day that I had my son, when she's pulling out the placenta piece by piece, I said, are you sure you got it all? And she said, I think so. And I'm like, you think?

Dani:

No.

Lisa:

And I knew in my gut and I pushed that feeling down because I thought she's the doctor. You know, you're talking about experts know better than us. Well, in that case, I actually thought that she was the expert and I trusted her. And she was the one who did my emergency D&C with my first child.

Emily:

So she should have known better.

Lisa:

And then a week postpartum, I started having pain in my belly. And I called my doctor and I said, I think I have retained placenta. I know that's what's going on. I need to be seen for an ultrasound. And they did one and she said, you do. And then they did emergency D&C. And then I hemorrhaged a liter of blood and almost died. So like, we have to tell these stories in order for other women to know that they're like, literally not the only one. And I felt like for so long in infertility and, you know, motherhood, early motherhood, and then with complications, literally, I thought I was the only one going through that. It's so isolating.

Emily:

So I have one quick question before we get into the lightning round.

Lisa:

Yes.

Emily:

When or how did PSI come into your life?

Lisa:

Yeah.

Emily:

Because you're now connected with us. So tell us about that.

Lisa:

Yeah. So towards the end of my journey, as I was kind of navigating the end of my first child, and then into having my second, I found PSI. And I learned that you guys actually have like resources online that were free. And I had no idea. And I was like, where has this been my whole life?

Dani:

Was it a suggestion from somebody like...?

Lisa:

No, I just was like surfing the internet. I was like motherhood websites and like support. I was like support website. And then like, it just came up.

Dani:

And then PSI was like, we're here.

Lisa:

I wish somebody would have suggested it because I would have jumped on it so much sooner. And I could have used it in that first year of you know, of motherhood when I was feeling so lost and like, I was the only one. Also, I wrote a piece for you guys on your blog. I think it was end of last year. If I recall, I don't even know what year it is, but it was, I think it was, but it was about my postpartum depression that I had after weaning my son from breastfeeding. It was a poem that I wrote for the blog. It was kind of like a prose piece. Like I just really wanted to get my thoughts out, but I was really depressed. And to the point where I was having, not suicidal thoughts, but I had intrusive thoughts and I know there's a difference between the two.

Dani:

Yeah.

Lisa:

I actually had a breastfeeding doctor, which I didn't even know was like a thing because I was having issues with breastfeeding early on. And I had found her, but I went back to her again. And I said, hey, like, I've been breastfeeding a while, but like, I'm having some really scary thoughts. And it's like, she talked to me about it. And she explained how when you're weaning from breastfeeding, that there's a hormone change. And that when you're breastfeeding, it suppresses estrogen. And that estrogen suppression can also impact, you know, other things. And so what was happening was as I was weaning, the estrogen was going back up. And I think there's another hormone and I can't remember the name of it. But it was like that fluctuation of hormones was causing this depression.

Dani:

Progesterone?

Lisa:

Maybe. Yeah.

Dani:

I don't know. I'm not a doctor. I just like to talk about feelings.

Lisa:

Yeah. And I don't want to be wrong. So it was essentially a fluctuation. And she said it was really normal that a lot of women who wean actually do become depressed. And I was like shocked when I heard that. Cause I thought when I think of PPD, like I think of women who just like want to kill themselves and like something scary, you know, but I was thinking more along the lines of like self-worth. And she said that once we were done breastfeeding, like things would get better, but that I needed to keep talking about it. And so I talked to my therapist about it. So, I mean, you got to talk about it.

Dani:

Well, I think that this is excellent. We have three minutes before we have to stop this recording.

Emily:

Lightning round.

Dani:

Maybe this is the pressure that we needed to finally maybe have the very first lightning round that is actually like a lightning round because we usually take like 10 minutes to talk through it. Okay. So are you ready, Lisa?

Lisa:

Oh, I think so. I'll do my best.

Dani:

Okay. Question number one, what is your second favorite podcast? Obviously behind this one.

Lisa:

Yeah, of course. Second favorite podcast. Raising Good Humans with Dr. Aliza Goodman, I think is her last name. I don't know if you guys follow her, but she hasamazing tips. And I love that what she does is she talks not only about motherhood and parenthood, but she also talks about the motherhood part, which I feel like there are not a lot of podcasts besides you guys, of course. There are not a lot of podcasts out there that talk about the mental load of motherhood and the pressure that we put ourselves under, but I love the tips she gives and I love everything that you guys are doing. And so I'm so like, I'm like honored to be on my favorite podcast. So thanks.

Dani:

Boom. Thanks. We're honored to be here with you. I will make sure I do a review.

Emily:

All right. Next up. Are you ready?

Lisa:

Yes.

Emily:

What are you currently binge watching or reading or listening to if that's your preferred method of book consumption

Lisa:

I'm more of a- well I read and I listen to podcasts, I haven't really been watching any shows lately. I did watch the last season of The Crown which was excellent, highly recommend.

Dani:

Okay.

Lisa:

Because i'm obsessed with Princess Diana but you know, I mean she was just just amazing human. I'm reading actually like three books right now.

Dani:

Three?

Lisa:

Yeah, because they're like three different books. Well, one is like a writing book. Okay. And it's called 1000 Words. And it's by Jami Attenberg. So if you're a mom, and you want to start the process of writing, it's a great, easy read where you could just like pick it up at any time. And it kind of just gives you tips and like, there's a bunch of really good stuff in there. Anyway, so that's one.

Dani:

Okay.

Lisa:

I just finished a book. I don't know if I should recommend it though, because it's kind of heavy. Is a heavy book okay?

Emily:

That's okay.

Dani:

Any kind of book is okay.

Lisa:

Well, I will say Maggie Smith. She's a poet, but she's also a memoir writer now. You Could Make This Place Beautiful. And I read it like twice already. So I would say that's one of my binge reads. And then Lighter by Young Pueblo.

Dani:

Oh, yeah. I've got that on my bookshelf.

Lisa:

I love him. And I just got his new book, The Way Forward also. But they connect with- like the way that I write a lot of times is kind of pages before I go to bed. And so I would actually recommend that for any mom. You don't have to be a writer. I actually do this in my support group that I run, too. We do a writing exercise for five minutes. Right before I go to bed every night, I do this. I just get a piece of paper or write it in the notes app in my phone. And I just write down whatever's in my head. It's a to-do list. It just clears out your brain. Or if it's like a poem or if it's just like Dear Diary, like it reminds you of like being in middle school, you know, but kind of just notes to myself about like whatever is on my mind, whatever I may be like ruminating over or I'm worried about or an idea for a new piece that I'm writing or something. And I just I try to do that every night before bed because it actually just clears my head. And I think a lot of therapists actually recommend this, too. And then I wake up and I feel more kind of clear headed when I get up in the morning because I know whatever I need to do that day or like it's already out of my mind.

Emily:

Yeah.

Dani:

Okay. What is one thing that today you wishes that you could say to pre-recovery you?

Lisa:

I love this question. I was hoping you would ask. And you knew that I wanted to answer this question. So to my younger motherhood self, I would say, don't be so hard on yourself because you're doing an amazing job, better than you think you are. You know, like every mother needs to hear this, but I feel like I wish I would have known that then. And number two, like whatever choices you make, and I kind of alluded to this earlier, but whatever choices you make about your child and your parenting and your motherhood right now, like this kid is going to be fine. So just like do the best you can with what you got. And like, whatever that is, it's okay. And then the third, I would say, take care of yourself. Set aside time every day. Even if it's just 10 minutes, 20 minutes, go for a walk, take a nap, give yourself permission to give the child to someone else. Disconnect for a little while, turn your brain off, close your eyes, disconnect, stop scrolling on your phone. Just like be with yourself. And like, I know sitting in stillness sometimes is hard because we kind of feel overwhelmed with our thoughts. Meditation has been the best tool I've ever learned. I would say, besides therapy, of course. And I meditate before bed every night and I meditate every morning. And so I would also say to my younger self in motherhood, give yourself a break. Just take the break, whatever that looks like, a nap, a break, a shot of vodka, you know, whatever. I'm not promoting alcohol, but like, you know, take the break, go out with your friends, like take a break.

Dani:

Yeah.

Lisa:

You have to.

Dani:

Can we write prescriptions to parents? Take a break.

Emily:

Take a break.

Dani:

Yes.

Emily:

I like that.

Dani:

You heard it here first.

Lisa:

Yes. You deserve a break and you don't have to kill yourself to earn it. Just, just take it.

Dani:

Right.

Lisa:

Literally. Yeah.

Emily:

Yes. Okay. Final question. How do you take your water?

Lisa:

How do I take my water... What? Is there context for this question?

Emily:

Bubbles, no bubbles? With flavor, liquid IV?

Lisa:

With flavor these days, this is my massive Yeti.

Dani:

Oh, nice.

Lisa:

I do drink my smart water. I know it's probably not the best thing for the environment, but I drink amino acids mixed with collagen and it's basically flavored water, but it forces me to drink my, you know, at least eight ounces a day, more than that and keeps me talking.

Dani:

Perfect. A lot of us struggle to stay hydrated. So we always like to ask what people are doing. So thank you. Emily, do you want to take us out?

Emily:

Speaking of thank you. Yeah. Lisa, thank you so much for coming in and sharing your story with us today. I think it's so important to talk about the impact that physical trauma around birth can impact our mental health immediately following and in years afterwards. And also to talk about how difficult it is for folks to get pregnant and the impact, the like the things that we tell ourselves that we should be grateful. Thank you.

Lisa:

Thank you for saying all of that today.

Emily:

Yeah.

Lisa:

Yeah. We try to balance all the things as best we can and we just got to do the best we can. And that's it. Like, it's OK. Whatever that is.

Dani:

Yeah. Well, thank you. Thank you so much for sharing.

Lisa:

Thank you.

Dani:

Thanks for tuning in to the I Am One podcast. Check out today's show notes where we'll drop links to all the important things that we mentioned in this episode. Please consider sharing about I Am One on social media and following and rating our show wherever it is that you listen to podcasts. It only takes a minute of your time and, well, that'll help our collective mission of bringing resources and local support to folks worldwide. From everyone here at PSI, thanks again for listening.

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Dani Giddens (she/her)

Host
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Emily Jankowski (she/her)

Co-host