DR. JESSICA VERNON - I AM ONE Mom, OB/GYN, Author, and MMH Advocate

On today’s episode, we’re sitting down with Dr. Jessica Vernon, a NYC based Board-Certified OB/GYN. She serves as the Membership & Professional Outreach Chair on PSI’s Board of Directors, and is a published author of a brand new book, “Then Comes Baby” (seriously - click on the link in the show notes & go get yourself a copy). Today, we’ll chat all about matrescence, the importance of speaking about the unspoken aspects of parenthood, & debunking the fallacy that parents are supposed to effortlessly do it all. Dr. Vernon is not just Perinatal Mental Health-Certified; we can certify that she is an incredible advocate for folks in the perinatal period, and we can’t wait for you to hear from her! So without any further ado, please sit back, relax, and enjoy this episode with our friend, Dr. Vernon.

Mentioned on today's episode:

• Dr. Vernon's Book: "Then Comes Baby"
• Podcast: We Can Do Hard Things; Mom & Mind Episode 279
• Book: The Hollow Half
• TV: Hacks
• Contact Dr. Vernon - @drjessicavernon; drjessicavernon.com; LinkedIn; Oula Health

Interested in sharing your story?
Fill out our podcast interest form here!

Questions about the I AM ONE Podcast?
Email Dani Giddens - dani@postpartum.net

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Transcript

Introduction & Meet Dr. Jessica Vernon

Dani 0:00

Welcome to the I Am One podcast. On today's episode, we're sitting down with Dr. Jessica Vernon, a New York City-based, board-certified OBGYN. She serves as the membership and professional outreach chair on PSI's board of directors and is a published author of a brand new book, Then Comes Baby. Seriously, click on the link in the show notes and go get yourself a copy. Today we'll chat all about matrescence, the importance of speaking about the unspoken aspects of parenthood, and debunking the fallacy that parents are supposed to effortlessly do it all. We know that's not true. Dr. Vernon is not just perinatal mental health certified. We can certify that she is an incredible advocate for folks in the perinatal period and an incredible resource for other providers. And we cannot wait for you to hear from her. So without any further ado, please sit back, relax, and enjoy this episode with our friend Dr. Vernon. Dr. Vernon, welcome to the podcast studio. We have been excited to chat with you ever since last year's PSI conference in Washington, DC. We bumped into you in the Starbucks line, and we were way less caffeinated than we are today. And we're really glad that you still wanted to hang out with us and drop into the podcast studio so we can ask you all kinds of burning questions today. So thank you for being here.

Jessica 1:26

Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited. And the conference was amazing last year, and I'm excited to see you guys in real life again this year. We can get coffee together.

Dani 1:37

Okay.

Emily 1:38

Yes. Oh, let's do that. I like that plan.

Dani 1:40

I like making coffee dates. Perfect. I think we're ready to just jump right in. Could you please give us a little introduction to who you are?

Jessica 1:49

Sure. I'm Jessica Vernon. I'm an OBGYN and a mom of two little humans, Kaya and Lila. They're age six and two. And I am also a survivor of postpartum anxiety, depression, and OCD, which is what led me to PSI and all of the work there. I'm very passionate about women's care in general, pregnancy, postpartum, especially holistic care with mental health. And so a lot of the work I do now is focused on mental health support in pregnancy and postpartum. And it's all because of my own experience. And I also recently wrote a book called Then Comes Baby, which is all about the aspects of giving birth and postpartum that we don't talk about, that people aren't anticipating or think could happen to them, that leave them feeling like failures or alone during their experience. So trying to help use all of the knowledge I've gained from working with patients over the past decade or so and talking and having these conversations and bring that information to more people.

Dani 2:54

That's incredible. For anybody watching the YouTube video. Peek over Jessica's shoulder. There's a little sneak peek of the book. Is the book out? It is May 22nd today when we're recording.

Jessica 3:08

Yes.

Dani 3:08

Okay.

Jessica 3:09

The pub date was on the 6th, so it is out in the world now, which is really exciting.

Dani 3:16

Really important question. Have you gone to look for it, like in real life, like in the wild, found your book, like in a bookstore?

Emily 3:23

Oh yeah.

Jessica 3:24

I haven't honestly I've been in bookstores, but I mean I've looked at it, but I haven't gone and done that. It's still kind of a little surreal. And I haven't read the paper version. I read so many of the versions when I was editing it. But yeah, I haven't gone through it in that way yet. And I have a box of them that the publisher sent me in my apartment right now. So I can definitely bring you guys some at the conference.

Emily 3:51

Yes. Ooh, I'll take a signed copy. Cool.

Jessica 3:54

Yeah.

Dani 3:55

That'll be extra, Emily.

Emily 3:57

Oh, fine.

Dani 3:58

That must just be wild seeing, like having the book in your hand. You've worked so long on it. Well, that's very exciting. Also very pretty. I like the artwork.

Jessica 4:06

Thank you. Yeah, I worked with an artist to do the cover because otherwise the publishers kind of just, you can give them some ideas, but they just show you what the cover looks like and that's it.

Dani 4:16

Oh

Emily 4:17

And you're like...

Dani 4:18

This is my book.

Jessica 4:19

I know. I shouldn't judge a book by its cover, but I do all the time. And so I really wanted to take ownership of what it looks like.

Dani 4:28

Yeah.

Emily 4:28

Yes. That was a good call. Okay. Can you tell us what role, if any? I think you've already said, but if you could go into a little bit more of the how did the anxiety, depression, OCD show up when it like first entered into your life?

Postpartum Anxiety, Depression & OCD as an OBGYN

Jessica 4:43

So I want to preface it by saying, as an OBGYN, you think I would understand what I was going through, but I didn't. I had no clue because we just weren't taught to look out for anything besides severe depression, people who are suicidal. And that's not how it shows up for most of us. So I was very hyper-vigilant from the beginning. I had a lot of intrusive thoughts. I was extremely overwhelmed. I couldn't get out of the house with the baby. I was trying to do everything myself. I couldn't sleep when she was sleeping. But I just thought that was being a new mom. And after being a doctor for a long time and used to working night calls and working until you get everything done, I just thought that's what I had to do as a mom too. And you can never get anything done as a new parent. Like there's always more to do. And so I wasn't asking for help. I was just going through the motions. I didn't realize that some of these intrusive thoughts and my repetitive checking on the baby constantly were also signs of OCD. And after over a year of this, I ended up with depression as well because I just thought that was how my life was going to be from now on. And so it took New York City being in the center of the COVID pandemic when my daughter was a year and a half before I kind of hit rock bottom and knew there was something else going on. And I'd been on antidepressants before at different periods in my life when my anxiety got bad. So it was like, well, let me at least try this. And that immediately gave me some space and perspective from what was going on to be able to figure out that I really had anxiety and depression and get the help I needed. And then I started learning more about how this presented in postpartum and what I had been going through this whole time. That I, as a provider taking care of people every day, had no idea even when it happened to me.

How Motherhood Normalizes Overwhelm

Emily 6:32

I have a question about that. I feel like we are conditioned to overperform, like you were saying, and that there's a level of overwhelm and hypervigilance that is totally normalized among new parents, but like it is in fact maybe not normal.

Jessica 6:54

Right.

Emily 6:54

What's your take on having had patients in that space and also yourself? Like, how much have we just normalized too many things that aren't actually normal?

Jessica 7:04

All the time. And part of it is–

Emily 7:07

You're like, yes.

Jessica 7:09

Yes.

Dani 7:09

Uh-huh.

Jessica 7:10

100%. Part of it is these ideals of motherhood that we're always buying into, that we are supposed to be a martyr, that we are supposed to spend all of our time and energy focusing on our child. We aren't supposed to need help. We're supposed to be able to do it all and make it look easy and smile and be happy the whole time we're doing it. And so in my brain, in my situation, I just thought, wow, there must be something wrong with me because it's so much harder for me than it seems to be for everyone else. But it's just that everyone else wasn't talking about it.

Emily 7:46

Yes.

Dani 7:46

That's why you weren't hearing about it.

Jessica 7:48

Yeah, exactly. Because and when I was seeing people postpartum or talking to my friends postpartum, you say, hey, how's everything going? And they're like, great, everything's fine. That's the canned response because you can't say, this is actually much harder than I thought. And I seem to be like very overwhelmed all the time and I'm not sleeping. It makes you feel like a failure, like you're doing something wrong because everyone else seems to be able to do it without struggling.

Dani 8:15

Yeah.

Jessica 8:15

And I remember because I live in New York, I'd look outside my window and I'd see these moms on the streets pushing their strollers with their babies. And I'm like, how are they getting out of the house with their baby? Like I was so overwhelmed even with the idea of packing everything up and not having everything I needed. And what if my baby started crying outside and other parents were looking at me like I'm a bad mom or like they needed to eat right then and there, and I wasn't prepared. It was just like this whole ordeal, even for me to think about getting out of the house. And I think part of it is normalizing that this is just the job of the mother or the birthing person in the family. And part of it is us not talking about it so people can really see the difference between the normal things you go through when you're going through matrescence and becoming a new parent versus postpartum anxiety, OCD, depression, the whole spectrum.

Emily 9:08

Yes.

When Medication Finally Created a Pause

Dani 9:09

Okay. I had a follow-up question about your postpartum experience. You were talking about how you didn't realize what was going on. You didn't recognize what you were experiencing as OCD or postpartum anxiety or whatever. What did it take for you to say, to think, oh my gosh, I think maybe I should think about meds or did you reach out to your OB?

Jessica 9:32

I didn't reach out to my OB because I didn't know it had stemmed back from postpartum and it was just hadn't been treated. But I knew I had anxiety in the past. And I was just really at a low point to where I was really struggling to get through the days. I was working full-time as a doctor, taking care of people, and they were so anxious because COVID was happening and they were pregnant and having their babies, and we really had no answers. We didn't know how it was affecting people at that point. And then I was coming home to my toddler, not knowing if I was going to get her sick and how it affected kids at that point. And so I was just so drained. Like my nervous system was on edge that it took everything to get through my days at work. And I was like, okay, I just I at least need to take care of this in some way. Maybe the anxiety medicine will help. And so I asked my primary care provider to prescribe it for me. And then once I got on it, immediately it took the edge away. And then I started being able to breathe and kind of like take a step back in process and get into therapy. And I started reading more about it. There were some books at the time. I read one book called Ordinary Insanity about postpartum anxiety and OCD. And I was like, oh my gosh, this is me. And how could I have missed this? I just thought it was all related to life and COVID at that point. And then I realized I'd been struggling with it since my daughter was born. And I felt so stupid because I was like, I'm an obstetrician. This is what I do. I take care of people every day. How come nobody trained me about this or taught me about this? So it really, for me, the first step was the medication. For a lot of people, they do other things with group support and therapy, acupuncture, yoga, all sorts of things. For me, like I needed the antidepressant for me to be able to take a pause. Otherwise, I was too busy taking care of everyone else to even take a second to think about myself.

Dani 11:30

Right.

Emily 11:30

I think that description of like the antidepressant and the pause resonates so much for me. Like I find when I don't have the ability to pause and go, wait a minute, like, is this thought actually realistic? Is this fear, is this assumption that I'm making real or manufactured in my brain because we are evolved from people who needed to outrun saber-toothed tigers or hide or whatever, right? Like the antidepressant gives the brain the ability to pause. It's not like the thoughts don't exist. It's not like the things, the fears, the being tired stops existing. It's like, am I gonna be tired forever? In my without antidepressant brain my conclusion will be yes, you're going to be this tired for forever. Well, no, you're not gonna have an infant for forever. Like it's like the ability to pause and go, is this real or not? You've said that a couple of times. And every time you say, I'm like, yes, it's the pause. It's the power of like pause.

Jessica 12:36

Yeah, you can differentiate between you versus your thoughts, as opposed to just being stuck in your head and those thoughts. And I see it all the time with people, all the time. I mean, some people, it's so hard because the thoughts are telling them taking the antidepressants are bad and it's gonna hurt their baby, whether they're pregnant or breastfeeding, and they can't expose their baby to anything. And so it can take so much time just to even pull apart that a little bit enough to be like, just try it.

Dani 13:04

Yeah.

Jessica 13:05

And sometimes people will come back and be like, I was struggling for so long, and I wish I'd done this sooner. But their thoughts were keeping them from even like getting that help.

Emily 13:18

Yes.

Dani 13:18

That myth of not being able to take medication during pregnancy kind of just needs to be debunked time after time because that is okay if you are doing that with the help of a physician. You know, there are things that you can take that can help you. So I'm glad that you're mentioning that.

Jessica 13:35

Yeah, we have so much good information on it. And I'll even tell my patients because I stayed on mine during my second pregnancy and postpartum. I produced so much breast milk. I felt like a dairy cow. I hated it. But anyway, I had all this milk and I donated it to the milk bank, and the milk bank did not care that I was on Zoloft. Like it is that safe that the milk bank took my milk with Zoloft in it.

Dani 13:56

Yeah.

Jessica 13:57

And so little of it gets in there, and it's so safe, and gave it to NICU babies. So I always I'm trying to reassure people like if the milk bank did not care about it and they're giving it to these little NICU babies, like this is a safe medication.

Dani 14:10

Yeah.

Emily 14:11

That is a great point.

Finding PSI & Becoming a More Equipped Provider

Dani 14:12

I'm curious, when did PSI come onto your radar? Did you know about PSI early on in your career or while you were postpartum? Or was it in your Googling of, oh my gosh, I think I have this, or reading that book, um, Ordinary Insanity and realizing, oh my gosh, this is me. How did you find PSI?

Jessica 14:34

Well, my training did not teach me about PSI.

Emily 14:38

Not yet.

Jessica 14:39

I did not even know reproductive psychiatrists existed until I started doing this work. And I was at a big university hospital at that time, and they're like, oh, we have a couple of reproductive psychiatrists here. And I was like, wait, what is that?

Dani 14:52

Tell me more.

Jessica 14:53

So I didn't know any of this. I learned about PSI through Dr. Kat on Mom and Mind.

Dani 15:00

Oh!

Emily 15:00

Dr. Kat.

Jessica 15:00

Found her podcast. And she either had Wendy or Chris, someone on, and they were talking about PSI, and they were talking about the training and all the resources. And I immediately went there and I have loved the organization ever since. It's just-

Emily 15:18

You're like, I'm an overachieving woman. I want to take another class and get certified in something else, like...

Jessica 15:24

Well, I felt like I had to because honestly, when I started having those conversations with patients and asking the right questions, because I knew, after my own experience, you know, how to ask the questions, holding the space, destigmatizing it, letting them know it was okay to have these feelings and feel safe to talk about it. Then when they wanted help, all I had at my practice then was a list of psychiatrists and therapists and patients who were like super anxious or struggling with depression or just really not in a good place. They're like, I spent all this time trying to find someone and they don't take my insurance. They have a wait list of three months. So then I felt helpless because I'm like, here I am trying to diagnose people and now I have nowhere to send them. So as a primary care provider, I can take care of these people myself. I just needed some more training on how to counsel them about the risks of medication versus the risks of the anxiety and depression and answer their questions and kind of how to increase their medication appropriately and what other things we needed to look out for, like bipolar disorder. Once I had those tools, it was amazing because now I only have to send those people who are more complicated, like people with bipolar or other things going on, or who are more severe to the psychiatrist. So it decreases that funnel. And I can take care of other people in my practice. And it just feels amazing to be able to provide that level of support for people and also show them like this is so common that this is what I do all the time. Like you are definitely not alone, and we've got you.

Dani 17:01

Yeah.

PSI Resources, Referral Gaps & Real-Time Support

Emily 17:01

Okay. Oh, go ahead.

Dani 17:03

Oh, I was just thinking, and there's an entire menu of choices for folks that are looking for help. You know, would you like to hop in an online support group? Or would you rather connect with somebody a peer like one-on-one, like the peer mentor program or something, for example? You want to gather people in your community? Maybe you can get involved with a climb that's happening, or you know, there's just– yeah.

Jessica 17:27

There's so many resources on PSI. And every time I'm having a consult with a patient, I am like putting the link in the chat, and I'm like, please go here, especially until they've hooked up with like a therapist. I'm like, free support groups, the Maternal Mental Health Hotline, all of these amazing things that are free and they're so validating.

Emily 17:49

Yes.

Jessica 17:50

Yeah, I mean, I can't say enough good things about PSI.

What OBs Should Ask at the Postpartum Visit

Emily 17:53

Okay, I have a question. When you were, let's say, I don't know, postpartum with your first, did you already in hindsight feel like you were having symptoms at that like six-week check for yourself?

Jessica 18:07

Oh yeah.

Emily 18:09

So at that six-week check, what could would should your OBGYN have like asked you that would have like helped you make the connection earlier?

Jessica 18:20

I think just talking about it. I mean, you can definitely do the screeners. Screeners are great. I didn't get the screener. Like then ACOG, I don't even I don't know if they'd come out with the recommendations yet that everyone should be screened postpartum. And the US Preventative Task Force might have been out already, but a lot of doctors still aren't, and most then weren't implementing the screeners, partly for the reason I said that they implement it, and then it's like, great, what do I do with this now?

Emily 18:46

Right.

Jessica 18:46

But besides screeners, kind of talking about not just, you know, your recovery physically, but how are you feeling? How's everything going? Having a new baby is a lot of work and really hard. And just making space for that. And also, like as someone who I had risk factors for it. No one talked to me during pregnancy or postpartum about because you have a history of anxiety, you have increased risk of postpartum anxiety. Like these are ways to prevent it, these are symptoms of it. Let me know if you develop any symptoms. And those are conversations I have all the time now because if people don't know it exists and how common it is, they don't know how to recognize it in themselves, or maybe they do, but they're lying about their symptoms because they're afraid they're gonna be deemed a bad mom, or even worse, a lot of people, especially like our black and brown patients, are worried that we're gonna call CPS and somebody's gonna take their kid away, which is a real worry. It happens. And so making sure they know that this is a safe space, and that's one thing I always tell people about PSI. I'm like, PSI is a safe space. People are there to help you and support you. They are not calling someone to take your kids away.

Emily 19:59

Yeah.

Jessica 19:59

So I think those sort of things are really important because otherwise I'm just like an overachiever and I'm gonna be like, I'm great, everything's great, you know? I can't be the one who's struggling. Like, this is what I do for a living. There's no way I'm gonna admit to that.

Emily 20:15

That's so true. And on the scale of like great to really, really struggling, there's so many stops along the way that like if let's say any one of us was sort of, I could be better, I'm clinically diagnosable, but I'm not, you know, I don't- I don't not recognize myself. I'm just like a more activated, more on edge version than I could be, right?

Jessica 20:41

Yeah. Yeah. And with anxiety and depression, also the same with like birth trauma is so common. About half of people have some type of birth trauma. And I often hear that it's like, oh, well, I didn't almost die. You know, my baby's healthy, I'm healthy, people have it way worse. So they minimize their own trauma. And I'm like, you can't compare yourself to other people's trauma. Your trauma is still valid and you still need help and support to process that.

Then Comes Baby: The Unspoken Parts of Parenthood

Emily 21:08

Yes. Let's talk about how you're supporting folks today. Can you– can you talk to us about your book without giving any spoilers away? Like...

Jessica 21:19

Yeah.

Emily 21:19

Because obviously that's one way that you're helping people.

Jessica 21:22

Yeah, I mean, and the book is a compilation of all of the knowledge I gained from my own experience and taking care of thousands of people through this process, because I have the same conversations about the same things people struggle with over and over. And I'm like, if someone had talked to them about this earlier in pregnancy, prepared them for it, told them how common it is, then you know it might still have affected them, but probably not to the same extent. So the common things that I see and that I talk about, the book goes through the aspects of birth from the birth plan. Through, you know, if you go into spontaneous labor, what it looks like if you have to be induced, what it looks like if you need a C-section, all the reasons things might be recommended along this path. But also going into the aspect of it that so much of it is out of our control. And so thinking about what is really important to you along this process, what is behind those values that you're holding on to, how to talk to your provider about it, and realizing that if things that are out of your control, don't go according to how you envision them or planned, you're not a failure. Your body's not a failure. There's nothing wrong with you. These things are just part of what can happen along this journey. And then with postpartum going into a lot of the aspects people struggle with from what is it like normally when you go home after a C-section or a vaginal birth, what's going on with your body, how it looks, how it feels, what things are normal and not normal, your emotional changes, your hormonal changes, your brain changes, incorporating all of that into your healing, breastfeeding, struggles with breastfeeding are a huge cause of anxiety and depression, sleep deprivation postpartum, and how it's okay to modify your feeding plan. And like 15% of people can't even exclusively breastfeed, no matter if they try everything. And so some people are sitting there doing triple feeds day and night for weeks on end, not sleeping. Their nervous system is just in complete disarray. And when I tell them, like, you're at your maximum production, you have to supplement. It's okay. And also, if you don't want to breastfeed, that's okay too. Give yourself permission to do what's going to be healthiest for you and your family. And of course, going into things like postpartum depression, mental health, birth trauma, sex after baby, exercise after baby, all of these things, but not just the physical part of it, like your doctor clears you and says it's okay to have sex and exercise.

Dani 23:59

Like at six weeks postpartum.

Jessica 24:02

What to realistically expect? Because bouncing back does not exist. So I talked, I brought in a lot of experts throughout this too like pelvic floor physical therapists, people who do periparutm exercise, like all of these things because your body is gonna take a lot longer than six weeks to get back physically to where it was, and mentally and emotionally as well. Like just because you're cleared to have sex does not mean you want to have sex. And these are some of the reasons why you might not feel ready to have sex, and that's okay.

Dani 24:36

Say that again for the people in the back.

Jessica 24:38

I'm telling you, yeah, I talked with some really great, like sex therapists, relationship, couples therapists who have some good tips on intimacy that doesn't involve sex and like how to get reacquainted with your own body first, which is so important.

Emily 24:51

Yeah.

Jessica 24:52

And then the last part is all about the idea of matrescence and this huge change we go through that is even bigger and more intense than adolescence because you're going through it and it's like overnight you go from being your own person to being responsible for another living being. And if you have multiple kids, you go through matrescence multiple times. And so this is like a major process that people are just like, oh, people give birth every day. This is like a normal thing. No, there's like so many things. It's physical, it's mental, it's emotional, it's hormonal. You know, your neurons are literally changing inside your brain.

Dani 25:27

Neuroplasticity.

Jessica 25:29

Yeah, it's-

Emily 25:30

Right

Jessica 25:31

huge. There's so much more to this that we are just starting to understand the tip of it because we finally are getting female researchers who are getting funding to do this, and they've had babies, and so they're like, I want to understand this better.

Emily 25:46

Shout out to the female researchers.

Jessica 25:48

Yes.

Emily 25:48

It's so true because matrescence is this like huge shift and it's also a huge opportunity that like we've basically not understood at all.

Jessica 26:00

Right. And there's so much of it that links into like dialectical behavioral therapy where you can feel really happy to have your baby and love your baby, but you can also be mourning your old life and sad and missing things, and you can feel like you need to be right there in their presence all the time, but also that you want to run away screaming. Like, there's so much of it's this and this, it's not only one thing. And people feel guilty and bad about any of the thoughts that don't align with this beautiful image that they see of motherhood. So bringing that to light too, and like it's okay to also mourn some aspects of your old life and struggle with this intense change that's happening in all aspects of your life.

Emily 26:46

It's like we didn't know how good we had it pre-kids. That like full night of sleep, the like not being covered in someone else's bodily fluids, like all kinds of things, you know?

Dani 26:58

Eating hot food. Anyway. And parenthood is lovely.

Emily 27:03

Yes.

Dani 27:04

Yeah. And and and.

Jessica 27:06

Right. Yeah. I've never grown and evolved so much, even though it's very uncomfortable. And sometimes I hate it.

Emily 27:14

Yeah.

Jessica 27:14

And you're reparenting your own self as you're parenting your kids. I'm like, oh, I didn't know that emotion was in there until I'm like getting into it with one of my kids about it.

Dani 27:24

Like, wow, this is really deep-seated.

Jessica 27:27

Yeah.

Emily 27:29

I said, put on your shoes. I'm sorry.

Dani 27:32

I'll write that down for my next therapy session. Yeah, I haven't learned more about myself than since I've been a parent. Um, because I have those moments all the time where I'm like, wow, okay, there's a lot coming up. It wasn't just about my kid refusing to put her shoes on or the ridiculous argument I had with my 13-year-old. There's uh, there's more that's connected to that. Let's unpack it, therapist.

Emily 27:58

Yeah.

Dani 27:58

I love that you've written this book, Shining a Light really on the postpartum period, uh, because man, I went to a pregnancy and childbirth prep class, learned all about what it was like, what you know, what was going on while I was pregnant and what was going to happen at the hospital. And then I just remember thinking, so they're just gonna let us like, you know, we're just gonna go now? Like, they're just letting us check out? Like, are we qualified for this?

Jessica 28:24

Right. And then, and even then, like everything that we're prepping for is how we're gonna take care of the baby. It's all about the baby. And so this book is about the person giving birth. You know, during pregnancy, there's so many books about how to keep your body healthy and how to take care of yourself for your growing baby. You matter too. And so I think that's so important. And I'm telling people I talk to every day that you are the most important person in this baby's life, and they can't thrive if you can't thrive. You know, you need to be healthy and whole and be a person on your own to be able to take care of them. And so self-care is taking care of them as well. You can't sacrifice yourself for them, right?

Emily 29:10

Yes.

Jessica 29:10

But a lot of times we're seeing that we are supposed to sacrifice ourselves completely for our kids. And so I want people who are becoming moms and who are new parents to know like they are the most important thing for their baby to succeed as well.

Dani 29:27

Boom. Periodt. As our teenagers would say, period with a "t".

Jessica 29:34

We used to just say mic drop, but...

Emily 29:36

Oh god, yeah. I'm team mic drop for sure.

Dani 29:40

Yeah.

Jessica 29:41

I don't have teenagers yet, so I am way out of touch with like-

Emily 29:46

Well, it won't matter because whatever they're saying now, they will definitely not be saying by then. Language evolves, and so do we into mothers.

Dani 29:55

We've just learned that nobody is saying on fleek anymore. Like that was not cool when I was growing up. Then I was like, okay, on fleek, cool, on point, got it. No, that's out now, and there's a whole host of new things. Anyway, how else are you connected with PSA?

Jessica 30:12

I'm on the board, which I love. It's an amazing group of people, and I've just always, like being at the conferences has always felt like coming home.

Emily 30:24

Yes.

Jessica 30:24

Everyone is so passionate about this, and everyone has their own lived experiences. And so I just wanted to do more for the organization. And I want to get more people who are providers, like obstetricians, midwives, pediatricians, people who are seeing these people through pregnancy and postpartum and taking care of their children to be involved in the organization because we have a lot of great people, and a lot of them are therapists and doulas, some psychiatric providers, but there's not as many people doing what I do involved in the organization. So just trying to find ways to encourage them and show them how important it is to provide whole person care when they're caring for pregnant people or the babies.

Emily 31:06

So true. I love that. Like it's like coming home. It does. It feels like coming home without like the drama, right? It's like there's something about like when you get to those spaces where we just like understand, because it's not the same for any of us, but it's like there's a rhyme between your lived experience and mine and yours, and we can understand on a completely different level when we're talking about it.

Jessica 31:35

Right. That's what I think when I think about doing this work and being involved in this community, why it's so fulfilling, is we're always looking for a human connection with other people. And the journey of getting pregnant, being pregnant, pregnancy loss, giving birth, postpartum, there's so many different aspects to it. But anyone who goes on this journey, like you can see someone else and be like, I see you. You might be from a completely different culture, socioeconomic status, race, everything. But if you've gone through this in whatever way your path has led you, like you can connect with other people and be like, I see you. We've both had this experience in our lives. And it's a huge earth-shattering experience for the people going through it. And so it's pretty cool because I definitely living in New York, I work with people every day who are from countries all over the world and have completely different backgrounds and experiences. And they've gone through some really hard things sometimes, or they've gone through some really beautiful things, but like just the journeys that they have, I can still say, like, I see you, I hear you, I've been there, it will get better. And like, we've all got each other, you know? And I think that's what this organization brings out.

Emily 32:50

That's a mic drop.

Dani 32:51

Yeah.

Emily 32:51

Or period.

Dani 32:53

Periodt. Um Are there any things that we didn't ask you about that you'd like to chat about before we jump into the lightning round?

Jessica 33:06

No, I don't know if there's anything that my perspective as an OB, any questions you have, anything else.

Dani 33:12

Emily?

Emily 33:13

Um, if this was a public service announcement, what is like the most commonly misunderstood thing that patients should understand? And what's the most commonly misunderstood thing that doctors, providers should understand?

Dani 33:28

Dang, this was not on the list of questions. This is like a spotlight around. Like the room's dark, the light is shining on Dr. Vernon. She's like, Okay, well, this wasn't on the list of questions, but uh here we go.

Jessica 33:47

I think for patients, one of the biggest things that it's very hard for providers to properly vocalize when they're meeting with you is that we can do our best to support you and create the experience you want, but there is so much of it that's out of your control, that's out of our control. And sitting with that can be very uncomfortable. But the more you prepare yourself for all of the possibilities about how things will go, the better you will do with being flexible when things go off course.

Emily 34:22

Meaning like, I want to be induced, I don't want to be induced, the induction things will evolve in a certain way, or labor progresses or doesn't progress in a certain way, or are we talking like during the pregnancy all the way through?

Jessica 34:34

Well, all of it. I mean, all of it, right? And even like miscarriages, people come to me all the time and they're like, did I do something wrong to cause this? And I'm like, that's the thing. Like, there was nothing you did or could have done differently to cause this or prevent this. Unfortunately, it just happens sometimes. And now we have to make sure you have the right support to heal from it and be able to grieve and mourn that loss and be prepared and have the support you need next time you get pregnant.

Emily 35:01

Yeah.

Jessica 35:01

But there's so much, and I think there's so much on social media and so much pressure to try to have like a spontaneous labor. I hate the idea for natural birth because it's like anything other than an unmedicated spontaneous labor isn't natural. But the goal is to do everything with as little interventions as possible, to exclusively breastfeed. All of these things mean that you're a good mom and you've done everything like as nature intended. And even if those things are your goal and like I wanna 100% support you in trying to achieve those, all the times things happen and people need an emergency C-section, or their blood pressure gets high at the end of pregnancy and they need an induction, or breastfeeding is not as easy as anticipated. And either there's problems with the baby latching or milk supply. And so there's so many things that can go other than expected that we just have to understand like a lot of it is out of our control and sit with that and the discomfort of that and do everything we can, but be flexible when we need to change plans.

Dani 36:05

Yeah.

Emily 36:06

Yeah.

Dani 36:06

That's great to start thinking about during pregnancy, postpartum, when you have a three-year-old running around the house and you think you know what you're gonna do that day, and uh they might have other plans.

Jessica 36:18

Exactly. I tell people all the time, I'm like, this is our first lesson in parenting. Like you know, I'm seeing them for a routine visit. I'm like, I'm sorry, you need to go to the hospital now. Your blood pressure is high. I know this wasn't what you planned for today, but like, and it sucks, and it might take you a little bit of time to get on board with this and answer all their questions, but also like, welcome to being a parent because every day is a surprise.

Emily 36:42

Yeah.

Dani 36:43

Yeah.

Jessica 36:44

And with the providers, I think the most important thing for providers is to really understand how deeply the words that they use affect their patients. I've had so many patients who their trauma or bad medical experiences go back to something a doctor or another medical provider said to them, the way they said it, how they made them feel when they said it. And the same thing can be relayed in multiple different ways to help someone feel centered and seen and heard and empowered and part of their decision making. Or things can be said in ways that make people feel very dismissed and powerless and unseen. And I think it's really important that as providers, we understand the art of language and sitting and communicating with people. People will remember things for years, how you relayed something to them or told them something. And so I think it's really important that we always take a pause and think about that before talking to patients.

Dani 37:43

That's really great advice. I mean, I'm just thinking postpartum for me, I had a lovely doctor, but I was like worried about like what she was gonna think of me if I told her something. And if you kind of frame the conversation like, you know, how are you feeling emotionally? You know, it's really common for people to feel blah, blah, blah. And if that does happen for you, I'm here to help you. And like the way that you frame that conversation that you're having with patients really, really does or can change their experience.

Emily 38:12

Totally.

Dani 38:13

I love that advice.

Jessica 38:15

Thank you.

Dani 38:15

Excellent. You know what you're doing.

Jessica 38:19

I'm still learning. I mean, I think part of that is like when you become a physician, it's like you think you're supposed to have all the answers and you're supposed to be the expert, but really it's shared decision making. And there's things people ask me all the time that I'm like, you know, I really don't know. Let me like think about that, do some research, talk to some of my colleagues and get back to you. And you have to be able to admit that because a lot of times there's things that we don't know, and we aren't the experts of each person's lived experience and how they're feeling and what they're going through. And so trusting the words of the person who's talking to you is also really important in caring for people in a in a holistic way.

Emily 38:58

That's so true.

Dani 38:59

On that note, are we ready for the very highly anticipated lightning round?

Jessica 39:05

Sure.

Dani 39:06

I think we are. Dundundun.

Emily 39:07

We need like music for the lightning round or some sort of like lightning visual, or I don't know. It's not fast the lightning round. It's the molasses round or something. I don't know.

Dani 39:18

It's like not a rapid fire.

Emily 39:20

Here's what it is. The lightning round is like labor. It depends.

Dani 39:23

Yeah.

Jessica 39:24

Well, mine was slow and ended up in a C-section, so...

Dani 39:28

Well, I mean...

Emily 39:30

Same.

Dani 39:30

For our sake I hope we don't end up in a C-section today, but uh...

Lightning Round

Emily 39:36

We're gonna have to extricate ourselves from this pod studio. I don't know.

Dani 39:40

This is not where I'm anticipating this going, but I'm open to wherever this uh takes us. So okay. Question number one. What is your second favorite podcast besides this one? I know we're like in tough competition with Dr. Kat and Mom and Mind, but whatever. What's your favorite podcast?

Jessica 39:57

Oh my gosh. So uh I do, look, I love all of the podcasts related to this. I will tell you the one that is like always I'm listening when I'm taking my daughter to school and back is We Can Do Hard Things.

Dani 40:12

Oh.

Emily 40:12

Oh god, yes.

Jessica 40:14

I mean, I really think that Glennon Doyle would enjoy PSI as well. We're all highly sensitive people, but everyone on that podcast is so great. And I think about that all the time. I'm like, we are doing hard things every day, and that's the only way to like grow and become fully human. But yeah, I do love that podcast.

Dani 40:34

Call us.

Emily 40:35

I know it's so true though. Like any podcast like theirs, any medium, any book, whatever, that like is challenging us to like evaluate our thinking or grow or yeah.

Dani 40:49

Great recommendation. I listened to an episode yesterday.

Jessica 40:53

I think in New York I listen to so many podcasts because we're always walking around, or on train. And sometimes I'm a real dork and like I'm reading so many books that sometimes I have the same book in print, and then I also have it on audiobooks so that I can switch between the two.

Dani 41:08

Yes! Because you're ready for the next chapter, but like, you know, you don't want to get motion sick. Yeah. You know, or whatever. That's smart.

Emily 41:18

So true. All right. Are you currently binge watching, reading, listening to anything really good that we need to add to our queue? I've gotten a lot of great recommendations out of this one, so.

Jessica 41:29

Um binge watching. I've been watching hacks. It's just a fun like show. I don't know if you guys have seen that.

Emily 41:38

We've been recommended it.

Dani 41:40

Yeah.

Emily 41:40

Gonna have to go on the list.

Jessica 41:42

The last book I read that was really amazing is called The Hollow Half. And it's written by Sarah Aziz, who's a journalist, and she is half Palestinian, half American, and it's a really beautiful story about your roots and generational trauma and eating disorders, and so many different things, and really relevant to what's going on in the world today. So I loved that and I've passed it on to a couple people already.

Emily 42:11

Cool.

Dani 42:11

Great recs.

Jessica 42:13

Thank you.

Parenting Hack: Coloring Through Big Feelings

Dani 42:13

Yeah. What is your best parenting hack? Or what's working now? We need to restructure this question because...

Jessica 42:23

What's working today at this moment?

Emily 42:26

What is your current parenting hack?

Jessica 42:30

Um, well, they're both so different. You know, it's amazing how you can produce such very different children.

Emily 42:38

Yeah.

Jessica 42:39

But my six-year-old, who is also a highly sensitive person and is very emotional and often doesn't know why she's emotional, often I bring out like pencils and crayons and paper, and I just start coloring when she's really worked up, and then she comes and sits in colors with me. And often she will color out what's going on with her emotions. Yeah, she reads a lot of graphic novels, so sometimes there's little comic strips, and mommy's usually the bad guy locking her in prison or something, but you know.

Emily 43:08

You're not the bad guy. We all know that.

Jessica 43:11

But it gets it out. I mean, those who love you the most, you put out all of your angst and frustration, and you know. I'm like, she knows I'll always be there, so she can say she hates me and I'm the worst, and she won't remember me when I'm dead. But you know, it's...

Dani 43:24

Okay. Ouch.

Jessica 43:29

And I like coloring it out too. And I find it's calming to me too. I know there's a lot of adult coloring books now, so I'm like, okay, let's both sit here and color.

Dani 43:36

Mm-hmm.

Emily 43:37

Yeah.

Dani 43:38

You can't see my comic strip though, because in mine, you're the bad guy.

Emily 43:44

Okay. What is one way that you will show yourself some radical love today?

Jessica 43:50

Um, well, this is part of it because having these conversations always is so fulfilling and I love it. Today. I am also off work because I'm working on Saturday call. So I'm off today and I like to go to a local yoga studio because it forces me to be quiet and in more of a meditative state. And it's very hard for me to do that at home. I'm always putting something on in the background. So if I want to like clear my brain of all of the background noise, I have to go somewhere like a yoga studio where I'm forced to sit in quiet with myself.

Dani 44:29

Yeah, you can't be listening to your audiobook. You can't turn the TV on, you can't you know, stream music or whatever.

Jessica 44:36

Yeah. But these conversations with you guys, and it just, it fills my cup because it's all stuff that we all connect. We're we're human-ing together, as Glennon Doyle likes to say.

Dani 44:48

Aw.

Emily 44:48

Yes. Yes.

Dani 44:49

Did I mention that Glennon should call us? Just kidding. No, I'm not kidding. The next question is one that Emily usually asks, shall I ask it?

Emily 44:58

You should ask it.

Dani 44:59

Okay. What's the question gonna be? The question is if you were to jump into a time machine, maybe like a DeLorean or something, I don't know. I'm aging myself. I'm from the 80s. If you hopped into a time machine and went back to newly postpartum you that was having a really hard time, what is one thing that today you wishes you could say to pre-recovery you?

Jessica 45:23

Oh my gosh. I thought about this so much when I was writing the book because I had to relive those parts, you know? And I just wanna go give her a hug and tell her you've got this and imagine where you're gonna be five years from now. And it's just-

Dani 45:41

Like you're gonna get through it?

Jessica 45:43

Yeah, it will get better. This is not your life forever.

Emily 45:48

Yeah.

Jessica 45:49

But yeah, just mainly give her a big hug to show her she's not alone.

Dani 45:53

Aw.

Emily 45:53

I love that.

Dani 45:54

Yeah.

Emily 45:55

All right. Less serious question. How do you take your water? Bubbles, no bubbles, ice, no ice. Do you have flavor? We like to make sure people are staying hydrated.

Jessica 46:04

All of the above. Right now, I have some sparkling water with lime just to make it fun for the podcasts.

Dani 46:11

Oh, okay.

Jessica 46:12

I usually have like ice regular water in a big bottle with me wherever I go. And of course, there's so many new fun, fizzy flavored beverages out there that I'm always trying different ones, but-

Emily 46:25

Oh yeah.

Dani 46:26

Cool.

Jessica 46:26

All the different ways.

Emily 46:28

Mm-hmm.

Dani 46:29

Well, if anybody has listened to this episode and they're thinking, oh my gosh, I wonder if there's a way I can get in contact with uh Dr. Vernon, how can they do that?

Jessica 46:40

That's a great question on Instagram @drjessicavernon, also at my website, Dr. Jessica Vernon. I'm on LinkedIn. I work at OULA in New York City. If you're in New York City, I'm always in the Soho office. Stop by and say hi.

Dani 46:56

Awesome. That's great.

Jessica 46:57

I love hearing from people and I love like I'll see people who were my patients years ago. And like one of them came to an event we had for the book last week, and she was like, I hope this isn't weird. And she was like crying and gave me a hug. And I was like, this is like the best thing ever.

Dani 47:13

Now we're both crying.

Jessica 47:15

Yeah.

Emily 47:16

Totally.

Dani 47:17

Wow. Did you know that she was coming, or was it just like a...?

Jessica 47:22

I didn't know. Yeah, it was a surprise.

Dani 47:25

Oh, that's lovely.

Emily 47:27

So cool.

Dani 47:27

Well, we will put links to all that in the show notes for today. So people can get in touch with you.

Jessica 47:33

Thanks.

Dani 47:33

Yeah. Emily, would you like to take us out?

Emily 47:37

I would love to. Dr. Jessica Vernon, this has been a long time coming. Uh, ever since that fateful morning when we were desperately seeking caffeine in the line at Starbucks. Um, I don't even know what you got to drink. We'll have to discuss that at some point later. Anyway, I remember you saying that you were writing a book and that you wanted to talk about it. And it was so much more than I expected it to be. So thank you for coming, for talking about your experience, for writing this book so that people can sort of think more broadly about what this all could possibly look like as our life changes over and maybe over again, depending. Thank you so much for being here.

Jessica 48:24

Oh my gosh, thank you so much for having me. It's been a pleasure, and I would love to continue the conversation with you guys anytime.

Emily 48:31

Yes.

Dani 48:32

You heard it here first. We get to go get coffee with Jessica. Cool.

Emily 48:37

Yep.

Dani 48:38

Thanks for tuning in to the I Am One podcast. Check out today's show notes where we'll drop links to all the important things that we mentioned in this episode. Please consider sharing about I Am One on social media and following and rating our show wherever it is that you listen to podcasts. It only takes a minute of your time, and well, that'll help our collective mission of bringing resources and local support to folks worldwide. From everyone here at PSI, thanks again for listening.