MICHELLE YU - I AM ONE Of Many Who Returned to Work ... Totally Unprepared

On today’s episode, we’re sitting down with Michelle Yu, a perinatal mental health advocate, PSI volunteer, and the Co-Founder & CEO of a company providing targeted, 1:1 mental health and career coaching support before, during, and after parental leave. We’re so excited to chat today about a topic we don’t often hear about - supporting working parents! So, without any further ado, please sit back, relax, and enjoy this episode with our friend, Michelle.

Mentioned on today's episode:

• Local PSI Volunteer
• Podcast: Mel Robbins Podcast
• Book: Maybe You Should Talk to Someone by Lori Gottlieb
• TV: Hacks
• Music: Sufjan Stevens
• Contact Michelle: michelle@myjosie.com; http://myjosie.com; 

Interested in sharing your story?
Fill out our podcast interest form here!

Questions about the I AM ONE Podcast?
Email Dani Giddens - dani@postpartum.net

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Transcript

Introduction | Returning to Work After Baby

Dani 0:00

Welcome to the I Am One Podcast. On today's episode, we're sitting down with Michelle Yu, a perinatal mental health advocate, PSI volunteer, and the co-founder and CEO of a company providing mental health and career coaching support to folks before, during, and after parental leave. We are so excited to chat today about a topic that we don't often hear about, supporting working parents. On a side note, we want to acknowledge that all parents work, whether it's paid or not, we see you. Today, our focus is on parents who are managing a career outside of managing, you know, all the other things that come along with parenting. We hope that you're as excited about this conversation as we are. So without any further ado, please sit back, relax, and enjoy this episode with our friend Michelle. Michelle, welcome to the podcast studio. We are thrilled to be sitting down with you today to hear about your lived experience in the perinatal period and how that shaped what you're up to today. I just want to say that you come very highly recommended from another recent podcast guest. Shout out to Nancy Goh Kelly. Hey, who said to us, you know who you need to talk to? Michelle Yu. Let me just, you know, Michelle, Dani and Emily, Dani and Emily, Michelle. She did a lovely little soft handoff, and here we are. So thank you so, so much for being here today.

Michelle 1:28

Oh my gosh, thank you for having me. And yes, shout out to Nancy. She is fantastic.

Dani 1:34

We love her. I think that if you're ready, let's just jump right in. Michelle, could you give us a little bit of an introduction to who you are?

Meet Michelle Yu

Michelle 1:43

Yes. So Michelle Yu, I'm the CEO and co-founder of a company called Josie, which I could talk about in a little bit. I am so excited to be here today because I know one of your questions is gonna be. It's gonna be about how perinatal mental health has played a role in my life. And I'm gonna jump ahead and answer that it has played a huge role.

Dani 2:02

Michelle's running the episode now. The guest has become the host.

Emily 2:05

That's why she's the CEO, you know what I'm saying?

Dani 2:07

Yep. Go ahead, Michelle.

Michelle 2:08

Yeah, I'm turning this around and asking y'all questions now.

Dani 2:12

Oh.

Emily 2:12

Ooh.

Michelle 2:13

No, no, no. But I had to mention that because it is the reason why I am even here today. It's the reason why I launched the company, it's how I met Nancy, it's how I learned about PSI. So it's a really important topic to me. I have two children. They're four and seven now.

Emily 2:32

Are you okay?

Dani 2:33

Emotionally or otherwise?

Emily 2:37

To be fair, I say that no matter what age because the answer is kids are hard.

Dani 2:42

Yeah.

Emily 2:43

Period.

Michelle 2:44

Oh hundred percent. Hundred percent. And this is like the little secret about my company that makes it so wonderful to have is that a lot of my team members are mental health therapists. And so I sometimes get like free coaching and therapy during team meetings.

Dani 3:01

Oh my gosh, we know nothing about that. Sike.

Michelle 3:04

But I'm doing all right. I'm doing all right. But yes, they're four and seven, and I live in Washington, DC, and I worked for many, many years in healthcare. I have a public health background and really started becoming more involved in the perinatal mental health space after I had my children and struggled myself. That's a little bit about me, and I'm happy to get more into that later.

Emily 3:26

Follow-up question: What role have these perinatal mental health disorders played in your life? Care to elaborate?

Michelle 3:36

Thank you for asking, Emily. I thought you'd never ask.

Emily 3:40

Shocking questions. Yeah.

Michelle 3:42

Yeah. Wow, I'm a little bit thrown. Not sure I'm gonna be able to answer that one. So, yes, it's such a huge role. It's actually, I think, as I was preparing for this interview and thinking about this question, I'm like, oh my gosh, this has actually given me so much purpose in my life. Like, I feel like I found sort of a purpose just having experienced it. My first experience with mental health challenges was specifically in the postpartum period after my first. He was born in 2018, and then also again with my second, who was born in July 2020. So, and I know you've had other guests on the show who've had babies in 2020.

Emily 4:19

Yes.

Early Postpartum & Becoming a New Mom

Michelle 4:19

Two very different experiences, but in both instances experienced perinatal mental health challenges and also two very different experiences and seeking help too. So happy to share more about that. But um...

Emily 4:33

Yeah, did you get a diagnosis? Tell us like what was the first and what was the second? What's the difference?

Dani 4:39

No wrong answer, because both of us did not have a diagnosis, so.

Michelle 4:43

Okay, good to know. Yeah. So the first time in 2018, I was one of those people that, you know, up until that point, I, very type A, like to be in control of things, perfectionist, and I brought that with me into the pregnancy thinking like I'm gonna figure this out, it's gonna be fine. I don't really understand what the big deal is.

Dani 5:06

Yeah, I have it all figured out.

Emily 5:08

I'm gonna nail this parenting thing.

Michelle 5:11

Totally. I'm like, how hard can it be? Oh my gosh, when I look back at that, I'll, you know, I often say that if I'm being really honest, I feel like there definitely was some arrogance there because I really truly, I was like, you know, I can figure it out. And I just like I can't believe my line of thinking.

Dani 5:28

And you don't know what you don't know, but you're like, okay, but if I know the formula, I know I've got all the things, I've got the supplies that I need. What could go wrong? Like, hello.

Michelle 5:39

I had everything prepared, you know, bought all the things, like got the setup, you know.

Emily 5:43

I read all the books!

Michelle 5:44

Paperwork done.

Dani 5:45

Yes.

Michelle 5:46

Yes, yes.

Emily 5:47

I did the homework.

Michelle 5:49

I did all the homework. But I will say also when it came specifically to mental health, I had friends that had children and it just wasn't mentioned.

Emily 5:58

Yeah.

Michelle 5:59

It didn't come up in conversation about that this might be something to think about or expect, not in my appointments with my OBGYN either. And I love my OBGYN, you know, but they're not always trained on talking about those kinds of things. And so we just didn't talk about that. We talked a lot about my physical health, and she was wonderful, but we did not talk at all about what maybe to expect after, which I'm hearing is more and more common when I talk to other...

Emily 6:25

Yes.

Michelle 6:25

So after the first in 2018, I did not actually seek out support. I just kind of sucked it up and I was like, I don't think this is right, but you know what? Maybe this is just like normal and I'm gonna just get through this. And so I kind of powered through that one without getting any help. It was really rough.

Dani 6:44

  How so?

Michelle 6:45

A lot of things. I felt myself being resentful of family. I was very short with people, I was hard on myself. I couldn't sleep. That was a whole other thing.

Dani 6:56

Well, that complicates everything.

Emily 6:57

Mm-hmm.

Michelle 6:58

You know, I know a lot of people have a hard time sleeping in that period, but I couldn't sleep at night, I couldn't sleep during naps, even when baby slept, right? I couldn't sleep. So there's definitely something going on there, but I was like- I'm like, no, this is just, I guess how it is.

Emily 7:12

Yeah.

Michelle 7:13

And I just powered through and then I went back to work, continued to power through it, and it was even more challenging. Became very resentful of my team members, people at work, as if they were doing something to me when really I just wasn't able to speak up for myself nor get help and didn't think that that was something I should be doing.

Dani 7:30

Were you resentful that people were coming to work, maybe like appearing rested or something and pulled together, or that they didn't have kids and they didn't understand or...?

Thinking About Returning to Work After Maternity Leave

Michelle 7:39

More so resentful, like people, yeah, people don't understand, they don't get what I'm going through, and there's such these high expectations of me to be doing all- I also got right back on the road. So I was traveling, a traveling consultant before I had children. And so I was back on the road, back on a plane the week when I came back. But I also, you know, in hindsight, I didn't actually talk to anyone about my needs. I didn't express like, hey, you know, could we maybe talk about a different travel schedule for the first couple of months back? But I didn't feel comfortable asking for it. I felt like people might see me differently. You know, I didn't want to be seen as that team member that...

Emily 8:15

Well, if you're a type A, you're a perfectionist, you're doing all the homework, you're probably doing other people's homework. And so the idea that you would ask for special consideration in any way feels big.

Michelle 8:30

Yes, exactly. Exactly. And I felt bad about that and guilty. But then what was happening at the same time is because I was burned out and you know, not well, then I just started being like, oh gosh, you know, they're making me go on this thing, and I wasn't the best leader that I wanted to be, and I was managing other people that totally see that coming out. And it wasn't good for anyone, you know. Anyways, when I started to finally like share a little bit more about what I was experiencing, it's like the floodgates opened. It's like once you share with another parent, they're like, yeah, me too. And I'm like, oh my gosh.

Dani 9:03

You're like, girl, why didn't you tell me that six months ago?

Michelle 9:08

I know, you know, I was thinking about it. And like now when I have friends that are having their first, they're pregnant, I've noticed myself too censoring what I say. There's a sense that I feel like I don't want to scare people either. I don't want them to get nervous or anxious, but you know, I'm trying to find- and I still struggle with this. I don't know if there's a good way that you all talk to first-time parents too about like here's some things that maybe you should watch for without giving them anxiety. You know what I mean?

Dani 9:33

Right.

Emily 9:33

Yeah, because you don't want to plant seeds.

Michelle 9:36

Right, exactly. But at the same time, I kind of wish I knew before.

Emily 9:39

Right.

Michelle 9:40

I don't know, you know, so it's like a delicate balance, I think. But for the second, I will say I got a lot smarter. This time I actually proactively told my OBGYN how I was feeling. She's like, okay, she's like, I think there are some signs here of potentially postpartum anxiety, postpartum depression. And she did actually prescribe me uh medication that helped tremendously for both that as well as for sleep. And that made things so much better.

Emily 10:09

Yeah. Yeah.

Michelle 10:10

So I think I just the second time I was like, I'm gonna ask for help this time. The other thing I'll just, the last thing I'll mention too. I think in a lot of Asian American cultures or Asian American families, I've noticed with myself, my own family, and some of my friends' families that there's just generally a stigma around seeking out mental health support. So, for instance, when I told my mom that I might be experiencing something, you know, mentally and emotionally having a hard time. And I love my mom, love her so much.

Dani 10:40

Love you, mom.

Michelle 10:41

She's done the best she can. She grew up in a place where, you know, that was not even an option. And she actually kind of laughed at me, laughed it off. She was like, Oh no, you know, like you're being so silly.

Dani 10:53

Oh.

Michelle 10:53

And that just made it worse.

Emily 10:56

Yes.

Michelle 10:57

But, anyways, I think about that a lot, and I know she's done the best that she could. And I definitely want to change that for my own children too, that they are okay to have those emotions.

Emily 11:07

Yeah.

Dani 11:08

So in your family, just your experience is like people just don't talk about how they're doing emotionally because is that a reflection on the family? Is that a reflection on...

Michelle 11:18

I think it's- yeah, I think it's a reflection on, it can be a reflection of like weakness, a sign of weakness, a sign of you know, vulnerability that just isn't very common.

Dani 11:30

Right.

Michelle 11:31

And I don't know if that's just the mentality of, you know, my parents immigrated here in the 70s. It was tough, you know, they had to assimilate to a new culture, learn a new language. And so they worked really hard to, you know, get to where they're at, assimilate to American culture. And so there's always this like in the background, this sense of like you kind of just like get it done, no complaining. And I see that too. I'm like, that's what you did, you know. So like that's what I gotta do, you know, kind of thing.

Dani 11:58

Right.

The Emotional Reality of Going Back to Work

Michelle 11:58

You know, power through it. And now, years later, now that I'm, you know, a mother myself and my parents are getting older, they're retired, I can see like how the effects of not having had that space.

Emily 12:11

Yes. I have a follow-up question.

Michelle 12:13

Yeah.

Emily 12:14

If this were, I don't know, a heart condition or diabetes or something else, is there a similar, like, don't make your health condition your personal life condition.

Michelle 12:28

Right.

Emily 12:28

Or is it mostly mental health?

Michelle 12:31

Great question. It is mostly the mental health that the stigma is strongest. However, that being said, also with physical health, there is sort of this attitude of like you can power through this, it's gonna be fine, and you know, I'm fine. Let's not talk about how it's making me feel or if it's making me feel, you know, not at my best. But mental health by far, way less talked about than physical health.

Emily 12:59

Right.

Dani 12:59

Michelle. Way to turn on the microphone and talk about it. Thank you.

Emily 13:04

It's like, is this thing on?

Dani 13:07

I have some things to say. It's a big deal. So, well, I mean, thanks. I mean,

Michelle 13:12

Of course.

Dani 13:13

especially if you didn't grow up talking about all the feelings, you know.

Michelle 13:17

Of course. No, I appreciate podcasts like this that are bringing it to light.

Emily 13:21

Yes. When you went to your OB and explained, like, here's what's happening. Were you pregnant or postpartum with your second?

Michelle 13:30

I was postpartum with my second.

Emily 13:33

Was that like at the six-week or at some other...?

Michelle 13:36

It was, I remember, I was thinking about this when I was preparing for this because it was a few years ago now, but I believe it was not at the six-week appointment because I was still sort of like in person for some reason with her, I like couldn't say it. So I remember I followed up afterwards and I'm like, oh, I should have said something. And I think I ended up messaging her, telling her, and that's when she was like, yes, okay. And so I couldn't like bring myself to say it in person. The other thing I will mention too, though, and this ties back to PSI and some of the wonderful work PSI does. I did also ask her for therapy recommendations.

Dani 14:12

Oh.

Michelle 14:12

That she was much less prepared for in terms of offering resources. And again, great OBGYN. I am not saying that this is in any way, shape, or form like a shortcoming on her part because I know that also just in general, that part of their training, there isn't a whole lot for providers there. So she told me, she's like, go to psychologytoday.com. And psychologytoday great resource, by the way.

Dani 14:39

Yeah.

Michelle 14:40

However, on two hours of sleep and you have like no idea what's going on, you kind of want someone to be like, call this person, they take your insurance.

Dani 14:49

Right. I mean, it's like opening up Netflix and going, what are we watching? Oh, cool, more decisions.

Michelle 14:56

Right.

Dani 14:56

Like, I don't even know what category do I start with.

Michelle 15:00

Totally. And I didn't know what PMH, it's PMH-C, right?

Dani 15:03

Yes.

Michelle 15:04

So I didn't know what PMH-C even was back then, and nor did she explain what that was. Again, not expecting that she would know.

Dani 15:12

There were not very many in 2020.

Michelle 15:14

Okay, so that's changed a lot since then. Okay, I didn't even realize that. Okay, because I am seeing that designation so much more now.

Emily 15:20

Oh, yeah.

Michelle 15:20

Which is really good.

Dani 15:21

We're all over the place, worldwide.

Michelle 15:23

Awesome.

Emily 15:24

Worldwide!

Michelle 15:27

To me, I was like, I can't go on a site right now and find the right provider for me that will take my insurance, that understands perinatal mood disorders, and is, you know, locally based here in Washington, D.C., where I live. So I ended up like not even trying. And, you know, fast forward to when I met Nancy, your previous guest.

Dani 15:49

Hey!

Emily 15:50

Nancy.

Michelle 15:50

She was the one that told me about PSI and the wonderful services that PSI provides and helping people get to the right resources. And so that's how, and she was a volunteer, and so that's how I got involved as a volunteer as well.

Dani 16:03

How'd you bump into Nancy work or...?

Michelle 16:06

LinkedIn? I think was like where we first met.

Dani 16:09

Shout out to LinkedIn. Hey, you want to sponsor a podcast? LinkedIn. You heard it here first.

Michelle 16:15

You're really good at this. I remember I heard your last episode trying to get Brene Brown on here, right?

Dani 16:19

Yeah.

Emily 16:20

Right? Hello, call us.

Michelle 16:25

I love her too, by the way. But yes, I think we met on LinkedIn because we both talk about a lot of like postpartum challenges that we experience.

Dani 16:33

Okay.

Michelle 16:34

You know, the algorithm must have-

Dani 16:36

The universe was like Michelle, Nancy, Nancy, Michelle, discuss. I know, but Motherly too. We had both did some work for Motherly. Oh, shout out to Motherly.

Michelle 16:50

Give us a call.

Dani 16:51

You wanna sponsor a podcast? That's all this episode is. We're not even gonna talk. Hey, Michelle, we'll talk to you later. Anyone else want to?

Feeling Unprepared for the Workplace After Baby

Michelle 17:00

Anyways, but yeah, so anyways, I just have to say I am so grateful for PSI and I wish I had known about that.

Emily 17:07

Yeah, because you hit a huge roadblock in that you're like, I need help. Okay, like I've been given a prescription, which is a critical piece of the puzzle, right? Like, but then you're like, I'm a fish in a ocean of like Psychology Today choices. How do I...?

Michelle 17:24

Exactly.

Dani 17:25

So Nancy was like, Listen, Michelle, you need- did she suggest connecting with a local coordinator or something and like them helping you find somebody in your area or...?

Michelle 17:37

So I met Nancy, I want to say last year, and by then I had found my own therapist. And so she more helped me go through the steps of applying to be a volunteer coordinator.

Emily 17:48

Oh!

Dani 17:50

Okay.

Michelle 17:51

So I am now officially a volunteer support coordinator, I think is the right word. For the DMV.

Emily 17:57

Yeah.

Dani 17:58

Cool.

Michelle 17:59

Yes, yeah.

Dani 18:00

Where I come from, the Pacific Northwest, that's like where you go to get a driver's license. I was like, what is this DMV? Don't worry, I'm in the club now.

Emily 18:09

In Maryland, we call it the MVA. It's not even a DMV. Like we have a whole different–

Michelle 18:14

I didn't know that.

Dani 18:15

Well, let's explain for everybody. Let's pause the episode for a second. DMV. Let's break down some...

Emily 18:20

DC, Maryland, Virginia. DMV.

Dani 18:25

And then MVA is Maryland...

Emily 18:28

The Maryland Vehicle Administration.

Dani 18:31

Oh, that's where you get your license. Got it. Okay.

Emily 18:35

Yeah, that's where we go. We don't have a DMV, a department of motor vehicles.

Dani 18:39

Yeah. Anyway.

Emily 18:40

Yeah.

Dani 18:41

Well, I'm really glad we broke that down for everybody listening. I bet they were really curious.

Michelle 18:45

I don't think you should cut that out because that was informative.

Dani 18:47

We ask the hard-hitting questions here.

Michelle 18:49

That's what I'm saying.

Dani 18:50

There's a lot to learn.

Emily 18:53

I mean, people know I'm obsessed with Maryland, so anyway. Back to you, Michelle. Anyway.

Dani 19:00

So, Michelle, you are doing- you are acting in the role, like the role that you needed to say, hey, can you like hook me up with somebody who's perinatal mental health certified, like and kind of like knows what's going on for me? And so that's what you do now. Oh.

Michelle 19:16

Yes.

Dani 19:16

That's amazing.

Michelle 19:17

Yeah. It was all meant to, you know, come together and be this way. And it's so many things too. You think it's like, oh, just you know, go to a website and find someone, but it's everything from the insurance coverage to whether they take virtual appointments, whether they take in-person appointments, whether they're local to your area, whether they're, you know, they have the certification. There's just so many- languages spoken.

Emily 19:40

Right.

Michelle 19:40

So many different things that it really does um, it really does help to have someone maybe even at a minimum give you a shorter list.

Dani 19:50

Yeah.

Michelle 19:50

Like narrow this down for me, you know?

Emily 19:53

Yes.

Dani 19:53

So if somebody, let's pretend I just had a baby, I live in the DMV, we all know what that means now.

Emily 20:00

Yes.

Dani 20:00

I find PSI's website and I just– do I go on there as a help seeker and just say, I'm looking for a therapist, I want to meet in person, and I'd like them to take my, you know, insert insurance here. And then you're like, let me get back to you. I'll see what I can find. Is that how it happens, or...?

Michelle 20:20

Almost, yes. So usually there's somebody triaging before they get to me. I get some information, some basic information of what they're looking for. Usually what I'll get is their location, whether they're looking for like individual or group support.

Dani 20:34

Right. Okay.

Michelle 20:34

And then specifically for what, whether they think they're experiencing maybe PPD or PPA, or maybe it was loss, whatever it may be, I do usually get that information. And then from there is when, and then I get their contact information. And from there, that's when then I can ask them more specific questions about insurance, virtual versus in-person, what they're looking for, are they willing to drive, how far are they willing to go? Those kinds of things are all in the follow-up.

Dani 21:00

Very cool. So do you call people or do you email or text, or...?

Michelle 21:04

They also tell you what the person prefers, which is great.

Dani 21:07

They would be like, Dani is scared of the phone. You should probably text her.

Emily 21:12

You're like the operator in like the 60s and the 50s, right? Like you're like, hello, blah, blah, blah, hold, please, right? But you're like, you're making the connection. Like the person is like, I need someone who this, this, and this. And you're like, ah, hold on. And then you're like, okay, you discuss. So when the universe put you and Nancy together and said, discuss, you're now doing that like over and over and over again for people. I love that.

Michelle 21:40

I never thought about it that way, but yes, yeah, it's really cool. And the PSI team has been awesome to work with, Melissa and Stacy, and yeah, so.

Dani 21:51

We heart them. Yay, coordinators team! Cool. Well, does it feel kind of like I mean, it's like kind of a full circle experience, like, you know, you needed it, you're doing it.

Rethinking Career & Work-Life Balance

Michelle 22:01

100% full circle. And then also, yes, and then it's what drove me to launch my business and leave my consulting career, which was really scary and uh still scary.

Emily 22:14

Tell me more about that.

Dani 22:15

Yeah, Nancy- or- Nancy... You're not Nancy.

Michelle 22:18

How many times can we talk about Nancy in this episode? I mean, she-

Dani 22:21

How many times can we say Nancy's name in your episode? We should have a tally.

Michelle 22:24

We should tally it.

Dani 22:25

Hey Nancy. Um, so I was just thinking, just moving forward. So, like, tell us about what you were doing before, like did you make a major shift career-wise? You were working for a different, like a company that was not yours, and you were like, I'm gonna- I'm doing my own thing now.

Emily 22:44

What would you say it was that you did there?

Dani 22:46

Yeah. What is it that you'd say you're doing now? Follow-up.

Michelle 22:51

Where do I start? Okay. So, okay, so before launching my business, I spent 13 plus years in consulting, healthcare consulting. What that meant was most of my clients were hospitals.

Dani 23:03

Okay.

Michelle 23:03

So I worked in healthcare, loved it, loved my clients. And I would travel across the country to different client sites and support them with all sorts of different things, everything from how to make their facilities more patient-friendly to how do you support the medical groups and making sure that, you know, they see a path to career growth in your organization. It was so many different things, and it was really fun, really interesting, mostly nonprofit clients. They were all so great. And I really loved it. It was like a big part of my identity having a career that I love so much. And I had my master's in public health and always wanted to work in healthcare. So it just like really worked out. But it was a, you know, a demanding job. It was travel practically every week, long hours. And when I had my first, you just it's, you know, it's just you can't-

Dani 23:56

Everything changes.

Michelle 23:58

Everything changes. And I'm not by nature one of the most confident people. Like, I'm not the person that I think traditionally, when you walk into a room, you're like, okay, Michelle's a thought leader who can share a lot of great ideas. I've always been known more as Michelle can execute, Michelle can say yes to everything and just do it and do it really well. And that was what I was, that was kind of like my armor. It was like, that's what I can do.

Dani 24:25

This is what I do.

Michelle 24:27

Yes to everything, I can do it, I can do it really well. I can put in as many hours as you like. I'm not gonna be the most confident person that could be in the room, like sharing like my thoughts on things and like, you know, strategizing or whatever, but I can get it done. I could not do that really anymore once I had my son because there's just literally fewer hours in the day. Like I actually physically have to go home and feed this child, and...

Dani 24:53

You were like, okay, so I need to drive 120 more miles today, but I've got like a quarter tank of gas. This actually doesn't add up, like...

Emily 25:04

Right.

Dani 25:05

I'm gonna be pushing this car to my destination.

Michelle 25:09

Correct. And to take that analogy, to continue with it.

Dani 25:13

Yeah.

Emily 25:14

Yeah.

Michelle 25:14

Is the destination even the right one?

Emily 25:17

That's it.

Michelle 25:18

I was always saying, like, I just do more and more and more and more because I'm like, the more I do, at least the more people will think I'm valuable.

Dani 25:24

Oh.

Michelle 25:25

As long as I can execute, put out more.

Emily 25:27

Like hustle culture, right? Like we are what we do.

Michelle 25:30

Answer emails as quickly as possible, produce more and more and more, and then you will keep your value, Michelle. And so I can't do this anymore. And um, that was hard. That was really hard. So, anyways, I don't think I even started to answer your question yet.

Emily 25:45

Well, I was gonna say, what shifted? Because you were talking about like not being a visionary, and I was like, who are we talking about? So, what shifted to I'm not the idea gal,

Michelle 25:58

Right.

Emily 25:58

to I have an idea.

Returning to Work Totally Unprepared

Michelle 26:01

I think circling back to the beginning of our conversation, truly just how much I struggled postpartum and then going back to work and all these challenges in the workplace, too, once I actually returned to work, just pushed me to the point where I was like, I need to do something about this. It almost felt like it wasn't a choice. It was just like I have to do this. And I don't know, it's whether you believe in a higher power or not. It's like all these- I could see like the signs in the universe like kind of pushing me towards this thing, you know, little things like I was walking home one day from work thinking about this, like, should I, should I not? And there was like one of those little free libraries that I walk past, you know, where people leave books that they want to donate.

Emily 26:40

Yes.

Michelle 26:41

And I looked inside and there, sitting there in the little free library, was The Fifth Trimester by Lauren Smith Brody, which is this book all about returning to work and how to support the return to work. I was like, oh my gosh, like this is crazy. And so like picked up the book. I also ran into people that in my life that I hadn't spoken to in years that were like wanting to help me with this just out of just like personal experience and knowing how hard it is, and also just believing in the need for more help. And so these kind of little things all started coming together. And so finally in 2022, I decided to leave and launch the business. So it was much more I was running towards something versus leaving something. I still loved my job. I actually loved my team so much and I missed them. But this has been amazing. And to your point, Emily, like I feel like becoming an entrepreneur has opened up so much in terms of having ideas and finally giving me the freedom to be creative and actually be the one that can feel confident about sharing ideas and tell my story. And that has been a wonderful sort of outcome that I wasn't expecting when I became a founder. Anyways, and so now we're three years in. It's a lot of fun. It's tough, but it's a lot of fun.

Dani 27:54

It turns out Michelle is an ideas person. Spoiler alert.

Michelle 28:01

Thank you.

Dani 28:02

Becoming a parent really has a way of like, you know, showing us things about ourselves that we didn't know before, even when we thought we knew all the things, you know?

Michelle 28:12

100%.

Emily 28:13

Tell us about your business. Pretend that we are a client. Like you come and you're gonna like, I don't know, consult us, you're gonna fix us up, we're gonna get judged.

Dani 28:25

Oh my gosh, we didn't tell Michelle that we were gonna request a pitch.

Emily 28:29

No, it's not a pitch. Like, you know, if you come in, you're gonna be like, I'm gonna suggest these things, right? Like...

Michelle 28:37

Yes. You know what? I like doing it that way because usually people are like, just tell us what you do, but this way it's like a little bit different way of... Okay, so you all are leaders in your organization.

Emily 28:47

Yeah.

Michelle 28:47

Do you care about employee retention and engagement?

Dani 28:50

No.

Emily 28:50

Absolutely.

Dani 28:52

I do. Sorry, I'm throwing the pitch. I'm joking.

Emily 28:55

I care very much about employee retention and engagement.

Michelle 28:59

Oh, good, Emily. That's good to know. Did you know that one of the leakiest points in a person's employment journey is when they go out on parental leave. And this disproportionately affects women, although it affects birthing and non-birthing parents quite a bit. And they happen to be some of your most talented employees, by the way. They're usually mid-career. You know, they've already invested some years in their career. We see a lot of directors, VPs, manager level folks come through Josie. And isn't it this perfect opportunity for one of two things to happen? Either one, you can show that you care about them, build trust with them, and give them support they need and set them up for long-term success and build loyalty to stay with you and your company. Or the alternative, you can let them be mostly left to their own devices, not feel supported, get burnt out, and eventually think about maybe taking their talents elsewhere. Which would you prefer?

Emily 30:03

It's like the difference between needing to lean away from work in order to get through this transition into parenthood and being able to lean into work because work is supporting the transition.

Dani 30:19

To know that you're supported by your company. Oh, yeah.

The Identity Shift of Becoming a Working Mom

Michelle 30:22

Yeah. And realize that actually you're bringing incredible leadership skills back to work because you became a parent, because you just became a parent. And to your point earlier, Dani, you've learned so much about yourself, what your values are, all that. You've strengthened emotional resiliency, all these things that the workplace actually needs. We need more leaders like that.

Emily 30:44

Like people who can pivot or think outside the box when suddenly the kid refuses to eat the thing that it was eating, or you get somewhere and you realize you don't have diapers. Like, I'm not kidding. Like, this is problem solving skill sets.

Michelle 31:00

100%. Flexibility, problem solving, prioritization, emotional resilience, empathy. Like, I'm basically naming all the qualities that you want in like your executive level team. And so this is why we can help you with that.

Dani 31:15

Hey. Do folks in your company, is it like coaching for businesses or for parents, or tell us more about that?

Michelle 31:27

Great question. So there are primarily three things that we offer to organizations, and most of our clients are businesses. So typically either benefits or like a learning and development team or a D&I team will usually bring us in.

Dani 31:42

What's D&I?

Michelle 31:43

Diversity and inclusion.

Dani 31:44

Great, thanks.

Emily 31:45

Yeah.

Dani 31:46

Making sure just for anybody who isn't sure.

Emily 31:49

I mean, it could also be HR, right? Like...

Michelle 31:51

Totally. Yes. Yes.

Emily 31:52

Because it's employee development.

Michelle 31:54

Correct, correct. Yes, absolutely. Talent development teams. And actually, the one other thing I wanted to mention is we've been working a lot lately with healthcare institutions, mostly because of my background in healthcare. The people who will bring us in there, this is a unique group, but provider wellness teams.

Dani 32:12

Oh.

Michelle 32:12

So like think teams that are focused specifically on provider burnout.

Emily 32:16

Yeah.

Michelle 32:17

Nurse burnout, that sort of thing.

Dani 32:19

Yes.

Michelle 32:20

That's another interesting group that will often work with us.

Emily 32:23

Yeah, because the people holding space have to hold an awful lot of it, especially in the world today, right?

Michelle 32:29

Yes. I mean, these are 24-7 caregivers, literal 24-7 caregivers.

Emily 32:34

Yeah.

Michelle 32:35

So we provide both pre-leave support as well as support for the return to work through we have both mental health coaching and career coaching.

Dani 32:44

Cool.

Michelle 32:45

Our mental health coaches are trained therapists. They operate in a coaching capacity. And then we also have career coaches that specifically focus on supporting people through this very, very unique life transition and all the things that may be happening during that time career-wise. So everything from we get questions like, you know, I'm up for promotion, but I'm going out on leave for 12 weeks. How do I handle that? You know, can I ask these questions? Questions like what I could have used help with. I travel a lot and I don't want to seem like I'm a bad team player by saying I don't want to travel for-

Dani 33:19

Like help me come up with the language. Like, this is really what I want to say, but I'm scared to say it. Can we craft like a couple sentences?

Michelle 33:28

100%. We actually have a role play session where we craft language for how you're gonna advocate for yourself to help navigate that transition. And ultimately, you know, people are more likely to stay if they're able to do this because they're like, oh, well, really what I needed was just some help with learning how to appropriately communicate for my needs, and then my manager is like willing to work with me.

Dani 33:50

Yeah.

Emily 33:50

Right.

Michelle 33:50

So, anyways, yes, that's the crux of what we do. But sorry, and the last two things, we also work with a lot of employee resource groups or ERGs is a common terminology or BRG used in employers. They're basically um, I'm seeing so many of these formed, by the way. Parent and caregiver employee resource groups.

Dani 34:06

Oh, cool.

Michelle 34:07

Just like a women's group or an LGBTQIA group or whatever it may be. I've seen so many parent and caregiver groups pop up in the last 18 months because people are just looking for community.

Dani 34:18

It's like a place where people will connect with each other.

What Real Workplace Support for Parents Looks Like

Michelle 34:21

Yes, they'll hold events, they'll do volunteer events, they get together, they usually have a Slack channel. Sharing ideas. Yes, it's just a place to build community. I love ERGs. They're the best. So we work with a lot of ERGs with events, and so we do a lot of events to help build community. And the last thing we do is we train managers. So that's probably like almost my favorite part of what we do is we train managers on how to show up with empathy, how to show up with the right language to support your employees that are going through parental leave and coming back to work, you know, how to manage the team member who may be feeling a little bit resentful because they had to provide coverage.

Dani 34:57

Ah, right.

Michelle 34:58

I actually get a lot of questions about that. I'm actually okay with the person going out on leave, but the person that has the cover, how do I manage their emotions and how they're feeling? So, anyways, really fun, and that's what we do. Thank you for asking.

Dani 35:11

You saw a need, you had a great idea, you did the thing, you're doing the thing. That is so cool.

Michelle 35:17

Thank you.

Dani 35:18

Because I mean, there are so many working parents out there that are, you know, outside their house, inside their house, whatever, like with kids, and there are lots of questions, like lots of unknowns. I didn't know like what was I entitled to? Like how many weeks of leave, you know, and I was so worried about lots of different things.

Emily 35:39

Or like helping folks negotiate or discuss with management. What if I would rather give a couple of hours of work during my leave than to come back to a pile of everything, right? Like then I get a little bit more leave, right? Like, you know, there are ways to sort of think outside the box instead of just like you are working, you are off on leave, and then you are working again. Like...

Michelle 36:06

100%. And the thing is, is a lot of people don't sit down and just have those conversations, you know, to plan ahead and think about what that might look like. You kind of just get stuck in the mindset of like, this is how it's always been. So that's just what we're gonna do, you know. There are different ways to help, you know, like even thinking about my own experience, thinking I just have to go right back on the road and travel, like looking back on that, like I'm sure like my manager and I could have worked something out, or maybe, maybe for the first like two weeks I didn't travel, or I could have dialed into one of those meetings.

Dani 36:36

Yes.

Michelle 36:36

I don't know. There's like so many different things, or maybe there's- I've heard of um, there's one company we work with where, so cool, they have a lot of traveling sales folks. And so what they did was they allowed for a group of them who were new parents to actually bring their kids with them to this big sales event. And they have a Bright Horizons benefit, and so they had like a childcare center there where they could put their kids in it and they could all be with their babies, and it was like such a cool, like out of the box.

Emily 37:05

Yes.

Michelle 37:06

These people, they love the company. I'm telling you, they're still there years after, they're the best salespeople.

Dani 37:12

Yeah.

Emily 37:12

If you can get a kid to eat their vegetables, you're good at sales. I'm sorry. Like that means you have negotiation skills, okay? Like...

Michelle 37:22

By the way, I can't get my kids to eat vegetables. Maybe that's why I'm not able to sell my business as well.

Dani 37:28

Gotta blend it up so they can't see.

Michelle 37:31

Gotta work on it, gotta work on it.

Dani 37:34

Well, this is really incredible. I think uh we were so excited when we heard about what you're doing to have this conversation today. So that's great. Thank you.

Michelle 37:43

Thank you for bringing me on.

Dani 37:45

Oh, yeah. Is there anything else that we haven't asked about that you'd like to tell us about?

Emily 37:50

Related to your lived experience or your business?

Dani 37:53

Like before we ask you about like your astrological sign or whatever.

Michelle 37:57

Yeah.

Dani 37:57

I'm just kidding. I'm joking.

Michelle 37:59

I'm so excited for the lightning round. But one last thing that I'll just add is I mentioned this at the beginning when I was talking about our business, is I do think that healthcare providers are a cohort that are in dire need of support. And so, you know, there's also stigma there on seeking mental health support. So I do encourage, like if you have providers that listen to this, you know, to reach out to PSI or, you know, find different ways to be able to get support you need, because I'm personally seeing a lot of attrition, particularly among, you know, female physicians and nurses, and we need you because that's the providers that I work with, and I don't want them to leave. And so I just think like maybe even doing an episode if you guys can find the right guest to talk specifically about how to support the healthcare workforce.

Dani 38:48

The helpers need help.

Michelle 38:50

The helpers need help. Yeah, that's the last thing I'll say.

Emily 38:54

Yeah.

Dani 38:55

Anyone has any hot tips, apparently. We're taking requests. Let us know.

Michelle 39:02

I have some ideas for you that I'll share. I'll share after.

Dani 39:05

Yeah, that's top secret. Sorry, listeners.

Emily 39:07

Are we ready for the lightning round?

Michelle 39:09

Ready.

Dani 39:09

I think so.

Emily 39:10

This is obviously your favorite podcast. So, what's your second favorite podcast?

Dani 39:16

If you wanted to recommend something to our listeners, does not have to be mental health related.

Michelle 39:21

This is somewhat mental health related, but I've been listening to Mel Robbins a lot lately.

Dani 39:25

Hey Mel.

Michelle 39:26

Hi Mel. Want to be a guest?

Emily 39:29

Call us.

Dani 39:32

Cool.

Michelle 39:32

Yeah, love that one.

Advice for Parents Returning to Work

Dani 39:34

Okay. Are you currently binge watching or reading or listening to anything good? I'm just about broke. I'm not broke, but you know, the number of great recommendations for books. Oh man, that we've gotten from guests. It's pretty incredible. So I don't know. Are you reading something? Watching something on Netflix?

Michelle 39:55

I'm gonna do all, I'm gonna hit you with all three.

Emily 39:57

Oh.

Michelle 39:57

I just finish reading Maybe You Should Talk to Somebody by Lori Gottlieb? So good. Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, I think is the name. So good.

Dani 40:05

What genre is it?

Michelle 40:07

It's like kind of like her memoir. She's a therapist and she talks about like she goes through like some of her stories with her patients and about herself also as a patient.

Dani 40:17

Oh.

Michelle 40:17

I just like I don't know even how I stumbled upon it, but it's one of the best books I've read in the last year.

Dani 40:22

It was probably Nancy.

Michelle 40:23

I'm sure it was Nancy.

Dani 40:24

Yeah. I'm gonna have to tell her to listen to. I mean, of course.

Michelle 40:28

This is literally the hundredth time her name has been mentioned. Okay.

Emily 40:30

I know, right?

Michelle 40:32

I'm watching Hacks.

Dani 40:34

Oh, okay. That has been a hot recommendation.

Emily 40:38

Hot rec, yeah.

Michelle 40:39

Really?

Dani 40:40

Yes.

Emily 40:40

Yes, many people.

Dani 40:42

In the last two weeks of us recording with guests.

Michelle 40:45

Because you know, it's going on right now. The finale, I think, is tonight. Maybe that's the reason.

Dani 40:50

Probably that's probably why.

Michelle 40:52

That's why.

Dani 40:53

Okay.

Michelle 40:54

And then listening to um, this is very obscure, or well, I don't know if it's that obscure, but if you have any listeners that are Sufjan Stevens fans.

Dani 41:01

Oh.

Michelle 41:01

No.

Dani 41:01

Who?

Michelle 41:02

He's coming out with the 10th anniversary of his album, Carrie and Lowell. Sufjan Stevens, S-U-F-J-A-N Stevens, comes highly recommended by Michelle Yu.

Dani 41:11

Okay.

Emily 41:12

Okay. Cool. I'm gonna have to check it out.

Michelle 41:15

I'm good. I didn't prepare for that question at all.

Emily 41:20

Okay, speaking of Hacks, what's your best parenting hack?

Dani 41:23

Oh my gosh, that's the best.

Emily 41:24

See what I did there?

Dani 41:25

That was so good.

Emily 41:27

Boom!

Michelle 41:30

Okay, best podcast host. Amazing.

Dani 41:32

Woah, hey!

Emily 41:33

I'm number one!

Dani 41:38

I'm just kidding.

Michelle 41:39

You'll come up with a good pun later.

Dani 41:41

Okay.

Michelle 41:42

Oh gosh, okay, yes. Um, hack, parenting hack.

Dani 41:45

Yeah.

Michelle 41:46

This one, because my son is seven. This one I think is maybe for those with a little bit older children. I heard this on I think it was Dr. Becky, maybe.

Dani 41:56

Oh, Good Inside Dr. Becky? Hey, Dr. Becky, you wanna hang out with us too? We'll just shout everybody out today.

Michelle 42:02

Okay, so a way to connect with your child is by inviting them to brainstorm with you when it comes to solutioning about your own challenges. Yes, which I'm like, oh my gosh, brilliant. Like, he turned seven. I'd been having some, you know, a little bit of challenges with connecting with him lately. And so I was like struggling with something at work, and I just like was driving the car with him the other day. I'm like, hey, Theo, so like I'm actually having a hard time with something. I'm curious what you think about it. And he started to engage. He's like, Why don't you try this, mom? And I'm like, and it was actually kind of a good idea, actually. But anyways, so that's my...

Dani 42:37

That at the moment is working well for you.

Michelle 42:40

Yes, yes.

Dani 42:41

My hacks work for a while and then I have to come up with a new hack. I love that hack.

Michelle 42:45

It'll change next week, but...

Dani 42:46

Yeah, but for this week, that's it.

Michelle 42:49

This week that's it.

Dani 42:50

That's a great suggestion. I like that. I think kids like to be involved and not be told what to do all the time, you know?

Michelle 42:56

Right. I want their opinions, you know? And I wasn't really asked that by my parents when I was growing up. You know, I can't remember a time when my mom was like, hey, so I'm struggling with this. You have any ideas for me?

Dani 43:06

Yeah, literally never heard that.

Michelle 43:09

Anyway.

Dani 43:09

Awesome.

Michelle 43:10

Maybe it's weird to ask your seven-year-old that, but whatever.

Dani 43:12

It's okay. Hey, what is one way that you will show yourself a little radical love today?

Michelle 43:18

Oh, so I'm going to take the night and I'm gonna go to a Fair Play screening here in DC and will meet Eve Rodsky!

Emily 43:28

Oh snap.

Michelle 43:29

Oh snap, I know.

Dani 43:31

Oh my gosh. Wait a second. Hang on.

Michelle 43:33

I'll shout Eve.

Dani 43:35

Eve, can you hear us? I'm gonna be waiting by my phone for a lot of people to call us after this episode. Yeah. Um, tell me, tell me again. Um, I heard Eve Rodsky and Fair Play, and then I sort of blacked out because I was excited for you.

Michelle 43:50

Thank you.

Dani 43:51

Is it a- it's a play or it's a like a...?

Michelle 43:53

You know, there's a documentary of the book.

Dani 43:55

Yes.

Michelle 43:55

There's like a documentary version. They're doing a screening of it here in DC. And so I heard about it through a friend, and so I registered and I'm gonna go. There's a screening of the actual documentary, and then I think there's a book signing after.

Dani 44:09

Oh my gosh.

Michelle 44:11

Right?

Dani 44:13

That's so cool.

Michelle 44:14

Touring across the country, I don't, you know, maybe going to different locations, so.

Dani 44:18

Eve call us. That is so cool. I love that. That's great.

Michelle 44:23

Yes, I'll tell her to reach out to y'all.

Dani 44:26

Okay.

Emily 44:27

Yeah, please. Give her our card.

Dani 44:29

Tell her Nancy sent you.

Emily 44:33

Oh my god.

Michelle 44:35

Can't wait for her to hear this.

Dani 44:36

I know. Me too.

Emily 44:37

She's gonna be like, you guys are strange.

Dani 44:40

We need to be in the same place at the same time and get like a nice little group hug.

Michelle 44:44

Yes. Oh, that would be sweet.

Lightning Round

Emily 44:46

All right. What is one thing that today you wishes that you could jump into a time machine and go back and say to pre-recovery you?

Michelle 44:56

Oh my gosh. Well, PSI that I wish I knew about PSI.

Emily 45:01

You're like postpartum.net. That's it. That's all I'm gonna say.

Michelle 45:04

I swear I wasn't paid to say this.

Dani 45:06

Like she's not being paid.

Michelle 45:09

But in all seriousness, like I kind of wish I knew about it.

Dani 45:13

Like it doesn't need to- it doesn't have to be this hard. There is help.

Michelle 45:17

There is help, yes. And that there was a easy way to get in touch with someone who could have helped me that was specifically focused on this exact challenge.

Emily 45:27

Yeah.

Michelle 45:27

Would have been good to know.

Dani 45:28

Yeah. Um, Michelle, we really like to make sure that our guests are staying hydrated. How do you take your water? Bubbles, no bubbles, flavor, with ice, room temperature? Tell us.

Michelle 45:40

Okay, I like it cold. I like cold water with ice. That's why it's in this very secured Stanley Cup.

Dani 45:47

Okay. Very cool. I too am a cold water fan.

Emily 45:51

Yes, I agree.

Michelle 45:53

Thank you for caring about my hydration.

Dani 45:54

You're welcome. Yeah, we gotta check in on people. Okay? We're moms.

Emily 45:58

Okay, how can folks get a hold of you? You or your biz, if they're like, I need that.

Michelle 46:07

Ya do. Especially if you're in business. HR folks, uh, learning development folks, healthcare systems, physician wellness.... Sorry.

Dani 46:14

No, hey.

Emily 46:15

Yeah.

Dani 46:16

You have the mic.

Michelle 46:16

Myjosie.com is our website, myjosie.com. And my email is Michelle and m-i -c-h-e-l-l-e @ myjosie.com. Please reach out. We would love to chat with you.

Emily 46:29

Yeah.

Dani 46:30

Well, that's fantastic. Thank you. I will make sure that we put links to all of that in the show notes. Emily, would you like to take us out?

Emily 46:38

I would love to. Okay, Michelle. As a fellow DMVer, I just made that up. That's a new word. Um, I think that it is so important to talk about the conversations around race, around stigma, around getting help, and around that there are resources that are available to folks here, but when you have to sift through them, that's overwhelming. So thank you so much for telling your story and for the work that you are doing with Josie and as a coordinator, because we gotta connect those dots. So thank you so much for being here.

Michelle 47:16

Thank you for having me. This was so much fun.

Dani 47:18

This was a lot of fun.

Emily 47:19

Whoop whoop!

Michelle 47:21

All those other people we shouted out need to get on here.

Episode Closing

Emily 47:23

I know, right? Call us. Hello.

Dani 47:25

Thanks for tuning in to the I Am One podcast. Check out today's show notes where we'll drop links to all the important things that we mentioned in this episode. Please consider sharing about I Am One on social media and following and rating our show wherever it is that you listen to podcasts. It only takes a minute of your time, and well, that'll help our collective mission of bringing resources and local support to folks worldwide. From everyone here at PSI, thanks again for listening.