KAROLINA LAZAROV - I AM ONE Medically Gaslit Birth Trauma Survivor

On today’s episode, we’re sitting down for an I AM ONE Podcast “first”! It’s our first-ever trans-continental conversation (recorded in Poland & the United States) with Karolina Lazarov, who is a yep - you guessed it - a Polish-born Perinatal Mental Health-Certified therapist, now living in the United States who is connecting the dots between parents, providers & resources on MORE than one continent. Wow! As if the title didn’t give it away, we will, in fact, chat all about how medical gaslighting impacted Karolina’s childbirth experience, how she found support and how she’s finding ways to connect folks here and abroad to the vital the resources they need. So, without any further ado, please sit back, relax, and enjoy this episode with our friend, Karolina!

Mentioned on today's episode:

• Find a Local PSI Coordinator
• Podcast: Nothing Much Happens
• Book: The Little Book of Hygge
• Karolina's Website
• Instagram: @women_wellness_therapy

Interested in sharing your story?
Fill out our podcast interest form here!

Questions about the I AM ONE Podcast?
Email Dani Giddens - dani@postpartum.net

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Transcript

Introduction & First International Episode

Dani 0:00

Welcome to the I Am One Podcast. On today's episode, we're sitting down for an I Am One podcast first. It's our first ever transcontinental conversation recorded in Poland and the United States with Karolina Lazarov, who is, yep, you guessed it, a Polish-born perinatal mental health certified therapist now living in the United States, who is connecting the dots between parents, providers, and resources on more than one continent. Pretty incredible. As if the title didn't give it away, we will in fact chat all about how medical gaslighting impacted Karolina's childbirth experience, how she found support, and how she's finding ways to connect folks here and abroad to the vital resources that they need. So without any further ado, please sit back, relax, and enjoy this episode with our friend Karolina. Karolina, welcome to the podcast studio. We are absolutely thrilled to be sitting here with you today. And the stars have aligned because we've managed to schedule this recording in the summer while all the kids are home, out of school. We are on different continents, we are in different time zones. Look at us. I mean, that in itself is quite the feat. But we're not here to talk about logistics. We're here to talk about you. So thanks for being here.

Karolina 1:20

Yes, thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm very, very thrilled to be a part of it.

Dani 1:24

How many hours ahead of us are you? We're-

Karolina 1:26

Just six.

Dani 1:27

Oh, just like a quick little six hours.

Karolina 1:29

Yeah, it's not dark yet.

Dani 1:31

I bet people are wondering where you are, but y'know, we'll get to that.

Emily 1:35

Stay tuned.

Dani 1:36

Yeah. Can you give us a little introduction to who you are?

Karolina 1:42

Sure. So my name is Karolina Lazarov. I am a licensed professional counselor, licensed behavioral specialist, and a certified perinatal mental health specialist through PSI.

Dani 1:53

Yay!

Karolina 1:54

I am also a volunteer coordinator for PSI in my home country, Poland.

Emily 1:59

Yay!

Karolina 2:00

This is where I come from. Yes, yes, mystery revealed. So you know, I came to this country when I was around 26, and then I can tell you about my journey. So it was just, you know, I came for a moment and then here we are. It was 2008.

Dani 2:15

Were you coming here for school or what was...?

Karolina 2:18

Yes. So see, this is part of how I discovered PSI. Yes, I came here to get more experience in the whole perinatal mental health, uh, maternal mental health psychology. Because you know, back in the day there was not much about that. But then, you know, I can tell you more about it later. But yes, you know, my heart is still in Poland, my friends, my therapist friends, and you know, being a coordinator just opened, you know, a wider range of opportunities and possibilities for me. So I'm really honored to represent PSI on a global level. But you know, so yeah, so I live in Philly now, suburbs of Philly. Yes, in the Main Line area in a beautiful little town Bryn Mawr. That's where my practice is. That reminds me of home, you know, it's like a small little kind of feel over there. So it's really cozy. If you ever visit, just come to Bryn Mawr. It's cute. I live with my husband with my two little boys. So one is almost two and one is ten.

Dani 3:13

Oh wow.

Karolina 3:14

Why? You probably wonder, you know, there's eight-year difference. That's my story, that's why I'm here, you know.

Dani 3:20

Yeah, tell us.

Karolina 3:21

Birth trauma needs time to heal. And it took me eight years, but I'll tell you a super funny story about that. That eight years. So I um, and when everyone was asking me what do I want for my birthday? It was my rounded big birthday, not to reveal my age.

Dani 3:36

Yeah, we don't need to talk about it. It's okay.

Karolina 3:38

It was now or never, you know? Nobody knows.

Dani 3:40

Yeah.

Karolina 3:40

But I said this is now or never. And when everyone asked me, like, what would you want for that big birthday? I said, well, a baby, because I've been waiting for so long, I had to overcome so much, so I want a baby. And guess when my baby was born.

Dani and Emily 3:52

On your birthday?

Karolina 3:53

He waited till 1 a.m. to be born on my birthday. So I don't have birthday anymore.

Dani 4:00

Oh, yeah.

Emily 4:01

Is this baby number two?

Karolina 4:02

Yes, so that's my second son. So, yes, I have a birth trauma story and I have such a good story. So, you know, I'm an example of like past doesn't define the future. I'm an example of like only because it happened once doesn't mean it's gonna happen again. So yeah, that's my little introduction to my life.

Emily 4:22

Excellent. Okay, so birth trauma is part of your story. Let's go back to 2008 when you were like looking for more information.

Karolina 4:31

Yeah.

Emily 4:31

So what brought you here to the US? Were you like, I'm going to grad school, I'm going to a training? Like what did that look like?

Karolina 4:40

Sure. So I actually graduated in psychology back in Poland. So I graduated one of the top universities, and my dissertation thesis person, you know, my head and my mentor, my greatest person was really brilliant woman that specialized and still specializes, she's like a professor nowadays, in maternal mental health. So it was my very first beginning when I actually got introduced to the idea of PMADs when you know no one was talking about it. It was one of the universities actually in Poland when talked about it, and there were classes about it, and I had the privilege to actually get involved in a research project. So I created my thesis based on prenatal attachment. It was lovely. For two years, I actually worked with pregnant women in the third trimester of their pregnancy trying to see if their temperamental differences are gonna be a prediction of their attachment style postpartum.

Dani 5:30

Ooh, that's nerdy, and I'm really into it.

Karolina 5:32

Yeah, it was nerdy. I loved that.

Emily 5:34

What did you learn?

Karolina 5:35

Oh my gosh, I learned so much, you know. Then the thesis- not to brag about it.

Dani 5:40

Go ahead. This is your episode.

Karolina 5:42

Yeah, this is my moment to shine. Yes, it was great because it was the beginning of this whole thing, you know. The Edinburgh scale was still like, oh, maybe used here and there, you know. They were looking at me like I'm just like a different animal in the zoo. Because when I came to this hospital, luckily that was a hospital that my mother was a head of the neonatology ward because she's a pediatrician herself. So I had this little entryway, so they were kind of looking at me weird, like, what are you talking about? What postpartum? What are you talking about? You know, so it was a lot of questioning, a lot of weird looks, but guess what? I was still doing it. Those moms were also like, why are you asking me if I'm sad? Well, everyone is sad.

Dani 6:20

Right.

Karolina 6:21

Like, what do you mean? Like, yeah, I'm crying. Everyone is crying. So, you know, they had no idea. So, anyways, you know, when I graduated in Poland, there was like no talks about perinatal mental health. OBGYNs were just like, uh, just take some pills or just go and cry. I don't know. Very, very dismissed subject. And we're talking 2008, so you know, almost 20 years ago, right?

Emily 6:43

Right.

Moving to Philly, Finding PSI & Global Advocacy

Karolina 6:43

So I decided to come here to Philly, you know. Why Philly? My sister was here, so it was pretty easy. It wasn't like I picked Philly for no reason. So it was an easy entryway, and I took courses, classes to be able to practice here in the US, obviously. So I went through quite a hiccup of learning who you know Freud was after all my journey in Poland. But that's okay. I refreshed my knowledge, you know, like it was good. And then I found PSI. You know, I found PSI, and then you know, I really was like first reading about it and you know, getting all information. And then when the certification came into place, I decided to pursue that route. And then, you know, a few months ago I decided to be the coordinator after actually I created my website, my Polish website, with all the educational stuff about PMAD, and then I started getting, you know, emails from women asking for those therapists. And I recognize that in Poland we are still in 2008. Oh, okay, maybe 2010, you know, not much has changed. So I figured out that that would be my chance to actually, you know, spread that awareness and do something with the PSI logo, you know, that supports me. So yeah, so that's how I ended up here. That's why I'm here. But as I said, my heart is still in my home country, and I would love to create something much bigger on this global level, which I'm cooperating with them constantly. What can I do? Like do you have more materials? What can I translate to my language, you know? Because there's no translation for Polish. So yeah, so that's my little future goal. You know, we'll get to it hopefully one day.

Dani 8:09

We'll check back later on that.

Karolina 8:10

Yeah, of course.

Karolina’s Birth Trauma Story Begins

Dani 8:12

But let's go back in time a little bit. Can you tell us, you alluded to having some birth trauma. So if you're up for it, can you tell us the role that perinatal mental health complications, disorders played in your life personally? We know professionally, like how you got involved. But tell us more.

Karolina 8:36

So you know, I'm not that angry anymore, you know, but anger was part of that journey. But when I talk about it, all these emotions are still coming up, you know, because even though I passed my birth trauma, when you tell the story, you still feel it. Like, oh you know, I was one of these women.

Emily 8:53

I have a quick question before we dive in.

Karolina 8:55

Yeah, yeah.

Emily 8:56

When these feelings come up when you're retelling the story, for me, it feels a little bit like I can see that there's a roller coaster,

Karolina 9:06

Yeah.

Emily 9:06

but I don't feel like I'm on it anymore.

Karolina 9:09

That's exactly what it is.

Emily 9:11

Okay.

Karolina 9:11

You know, it's almost like you're looking at the story from a distance, right? Like that third person perspective, as we say in therapy, right? Like you're not sitting, you're just observing your story, and you tell people the story that is part of you, but yes, you're not in it, right? So there's this detachment of like there's no emotional outlook on what happened. It's just like a raw...

Emily 9:30

Like you're not reliving the feelings with the same level of intensity.

Karolina 9:35

Absolutely, absolutely, you know. So, yeah, so let's dive into it. So, you know, when I was giving birth to my son, it was-

Dani 9:44

First or second?

Karolina 9:45

First, first, ten years ago. So we're talking 10 years ago, which I still feel like we made progress there, but you know, here and there, right? So-

Dani 9:53

2015 was pre-perinatal mental health certification. It was, you know.

Karolina 9:57

Yes, yes. And you know, and at that time, my English wasn't that good, my verbal skills were not that good, and I clearly was not as loud as I am now. You know, if that happened yesterday, I mean, I think that my story would have been so different. But 10 years ago, you know, things were so different, and I was different, right? And I- it was the first baby too, so you kind of were like, uh, what's normal, what's not normal, right?

Dani 10:22

Yeah.

Prolonged Labor, Dismissal & Not Being Heard

Karolina 10:22

So what happened basically, I had this little complicated labor, not because of myself, but because of the timing. They were really prolonging my labor. So, you know, there was a nurse's shift change, there was a doctor's shift change, and they were just like dragging it and dragging it.

Dani 10:36

Had you been induced?

Karolina 10:38

No, it was a natural, you know, but they also sent me home three times, telling me not yet, not yet, not yet. And you know, again, remember I mentioned my mother, right, neonatologist, sitting by my side saying, this is not how it's supposed to be. Tell them this, tell them that, you know. No, no, nobody listened. So eventually at some point I was like, I am not leaving. So I'll be sitting here, I am not going home for the fourth time, I'm staying here. So they let me stay, but I didn't know that they're gonna let me stay, prolonging this still even more. So that was one of the things, you know.

Dani 11:09

Not being listened to?

Karolina 11:10

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The other thing was the epidural, so you know, there was a lot of uh yeah, stuff with that, you know. They didn't fix what they messed up, they were just keeping me in my little happy zone, so I wouldn't complain and I would be just happy, right? And I would be...

Emily 11:26

Did the epidural not take?

Karolina 11:28

Uh it did take, but on one side of my body, and the other side felt weird. And I was telling them it doesn't feel right, something is off. I was hot, I was just numb in a weird way, and they were just giving me more, you know,

Dani 11:41

Oh.

Karolina 11:41

other stuff to make me happy, you know. That's what I'm saying. So I remember being in a goofy mode, like kind of like, oh my gosh, this is great. I'm here, you know. So not really, you know, attachment with reality and stuff. So, anyways.

Emily 11:54

That one that makes you loopy, right? Like, so in addition to the epidural, you were getting– God, what is that? I don't even remember.

Karolina 12:03

Fentanyl.

Emily 12:03

Yes.

Karolina 12:04

Yes, so they were giving me that basically the happy drug, right? To just yeah, to make you just not be really aware, which now I understand because you know, ten years later– eight, eight, because my son is almost two, another anesthesiologist explained to me everything in details because he actually wanted to tell me what's going on. So he actually told me what they're giving and what dose and then how, you know, just to calm my nerves. But that's eight years later. But at that time, you know, you were just pumping me with drugs rather than take that epidural and kind of fix it when I was telling them something wasn't right, you know, doesn't feel right. I was just not heard at all. I had no voice, I had no voice, you know, which still happens a lot. And you know, I finally gave birth to my son, and everything is great, and then they tell me, okay, get up and sit on this wheelchair. And here's where everything started. So they didn't know that I couldn't walk, that I was partially paralyzed, and I collapsed on the wheelchair. So I got injured, they couldn't pick me up. It was three people my mom, my husband, and that nurse that told me just sit down. And um, yeah, and that's when they were like, uh-oh, something actually did go wrong. And I'll tell you, you know, so they check MRI, there was no hemorrhage or anything. Nobody actually knew what happened. Nobody could have explained, but I'll tell you a funny story. The anesthesiologist who did it came to my room and said, just so you know, I didn't do anything wrong, and you signed the paper so you knew the risk. And that's my story of medical gaslighting. That's why I said this is medical gaslighting. That is my story. It's not just the birth story, it's just the medical manipulation, emotional manipulation.

Emily 13:32

Like he basically yelled at you for doing what the nurse told you to do.

Karolina 13:38

Yeah.

Emily 13:39

Right?

Medical Gaslighting After Birth

Karolina 13:39

Yeah, yes, absolutely. Like, I, you know, this is not on me. Just so you know, you wanna be tricky, you signed the paper. So, you know, that was the beginning of like, wait, what? Like, why would you even come and say that? Instead of saying, hey, how are you feeling? What's going on? Let me see. The first sentence I heard.

Dani 13:57

I just want to let you know that none of this is my fault, and you signed something to say that you're not gonna tell me that it's my fault.

Karolina 14:04

Yeah, right? And now actually you gave me the idea of check if it was your fault because now I'm like...

Dani 14:10

Like, why would you otherwise be saying that to me? It's very odd.

Postpartum Injury, Falling & Losing Mobility

Karolina 14:14

Right? Yes. So that was the beginning, you know. And then you know, the treatment that I received, you know, post-delivery with not being able to get up, not being able to take that shower when they tell you, go take a shower, start walking. No, I was there for six days. I think it was around six days.

Emily 14:31

Because of the fall?

Karolina 14:32

I couldn't walk. I couldn't get up. My leg, my whole- I mean my hand and stuff, but my leg would not stay straight, it would buckle.

Dani 14:40

Oh wow.

Karolina 14:41

I couldn't lift myself up. So my husband, for like a month, he was lifting me up from a couch, you know? So, you know, and there was a sequence of different events that I think exacerbated that birth trauma and basically being medically gaslighted because I had nurses that came and said, like, just come and, you know, stand up, just try to do it. And then I would fall. So I was like, oh my god, like what's wrong with me? Right? And then I would say, can you help me with like the bathroom stuff? And she's like, well, can't you do it yourself? And I was like, well, I can't, you know, and the first most important one was when the nurse came in, you know, I'm stressed out, I'm crying, I don't know what's going on. I'm wondering if I'm ever gonna be walking. My husband, who I think had actually– now when I'm looking back– I think he struggled with his mental health.

Emily 15:26

For sure.

Karolina 15:27

It wasn't really me, it was him, pacing, biting nails and all that stuff. So if I could diagnose him today, I think I would have, you know, not a back then but nowadays. So, anyway, so he finally- he was so stressed out that he was sitting on that little chair next to me, just sleeping. And we're talking middle of the night. And I said, can you please? I'm begging you to take the baby for two hours, just so I can put my you know eyes down, like he's sleeping. And she said, why is he here? I was like, Excuse me? Well, why is he here if he's not helping? Like he may as well sleep at home. And I look at her, and again, today I would have said something, but back then I was like, please, pretty, please, you know, and she was just: fine, but I'll bring him for next feeding. And I was like, what feeding? What do you mean, what feeding? I didn't have any supply. Oh, guess what? I've never had a supply because of all the stress, you know. But at that time, like nothing was coming, and she's like I'll bring him for feeding. So, you know, like the nurses were mean, the doctors were mean, nobody checked on me, nobody really was actually wanting to help me. And you know, I left this hospital on a wheelchair with a cane that they said, well, we'll give you this cane but you need to pay. So it was, I'm telling you, now I'm laughing about it because it's so outrageous and absurd that right, like you wouldn't believe it. If someone told you the story, you'd be like, Wait, what?

Emily 16:43

Yeah, wow.

Karolina 16:44

And then that was it. That was it, and then I was, you know, left by myself. Nobody checked on me, nobody said anything, nobody just you know, cared. And actually, no, they said if nothing changes, come back in six months. I literally heard-

Dani 16:58

Six months?!

Karolina 16:59

Yeah. They sent neurologist to assess me, and he's like, yeah, definitely, that leg is not as strong. Like, you cannot bend that knee. And I was like, Yeah, I know.

Dani 17:07

I'm saying!

Karolina 17:08

Oh, thank you for telling me. And he said, like, you know, just observe it, you know, monitor it, just work on it, you know, PT maybe, but not yet, because you are postpartum, so you cannot do PT, right? Come back in six months.

Dani 17:22

So was the partial like paralysis or like weakness, like unable to stand up and you said it was hard for you to fully extend your arm. Was that like a combination of like there was like a complication from the epidural and also the fall? Or I mean, I don't know.

Karolina 17:39

That's why I'm saying it took me eight years because for eight years I was looking for answers, and I was so afraid to actually get pregnant and get that epidural again because I'm thinking, well, if that happened once, what if I'm like allergic to something?

Dani 17:52

Like maybe.

Emily 17:53

Especially because they didn't- they weren't able to tell you the root cause, like...

Fear of a Second Pregnancy

Karolina 17:58

Nope, nope, and nobody said you're gonna be fine next time, you know?

Dani 18:02

Right.

Karolina 18:02

And I knew, and I actually had, you know, I had all of the side effects of like labor. So I was really not happy not having epidural, you know, next time because I don't know if I'm gonna be able to do it. So I really wanted to do and have that epidural, and um, you know, nobody was able to tell me like, no, no, you're gonna be able to walk. Like I was really, really afraid that I wouldn't be able to walk after my second. Now, here's the funny thing. If I knew what I know now, then I probably wouldn't have waited eight years. And it took one person, kind, empathetic, supportive doctor, that anesthesiologist that I saw when I had my second son, to actually make me feel that he got this. He said, Listen, there is no way. He took a banana and he started peeling banana to show me where epidural goes. He's like, see that skin? See that inner part? We're not going to your spine. I don't know what they messed up, but this is what I'm gonna do. And this guy, he was so amazing and so patient with me that I sat down and I was like, okay, I trust you. You know, and my mom, who was sitting there and observing the first doctor and the second doctor, you know, eight years later, she was like, you know what? I trusted him too. Whereas with the first one, she was like eh...

Dani 19:13

Like it was just, you know, it was a fast food restaurant. Get in, get out, get to people.

Karolina 19:20

Yeah, that actually, you know what, that is funny because actually this is how it felt. Whereas the second one was like the luxury, you know, little restaurant in Italy.

Dani 19:28

This second doctor or anesthesiologist was obviously recognizing that you had anxiety about the possibility of getting another epidural and being sensitive to that and just going, okay, can I tell you about it?

Karolina 19:44

Yes, and I did tell him, you know, and I felt heard. First time I felt actually heard, you know, and that's something that I always tell my clients: use your voice. You need to be heard because you know what? If you're not gonna find a doctor that's gonna hear you, find another doctor.

Emily 20:01

Yeah.

Karolina 20:01

Now I know. Now I know because I found different practice, I went to a different hospital.

Emily 20:06

Same.

Karolina 20:07

Right? See, and that made such a difference, you know.

Emily 20:11

I was a doula for a couple years and had to go back to the hospital where I delivered my first, and I got sweaty. And I was like, it's not safe here. Like, I mean, uh, you know, because trauma is real, like...

Karolina 20:25

Absolutely. That's why I was like, mm-mm-mm, I am not doing this again over there.

Dani 20:30

Yep.

Karolina 20:30

You know, so now I know what happened to answer your question. They prolonged that labor and they kept me on those drugs too long. And then because I was pushing for like 45 minutes, I think because of that epidural on one side not being put correctly and the pressure I was putting during labor put so much tension on my lower part of my body that it was due to like a muscle, you know. It's kind of like what I say when people run and your legs are shaking. I think that's what happened, you know, and nobody was holding me. So if maybe that nurse was holding me and be like, okay, let's sit down together. Not like, okay, get up and sit, you know, like that's okay. You just were in labor for 12 hours.

Dani 21:07

They were just kind of like telling you what to do next and just doing things without kind of like talking you through it. I'm just thinking about the second anesthesiologist who was very sensitive to...

Karolina 21:19

Very sensitive.

Dani 21:20

To how you were feeling and you know what your first experience was, and was like, okay, we could do this differently.

Karolina 21:28

Yes. And you know, he heard me and he also gave me such a low dose that I still felt the pain. So I knew, and I was moving my legs constantly, just...

Dani 21:38

Like just making sure.

Karolina 21:39

Yeah, yeah.

Dani 21:40

Did you ask, can I have like a little baby dose?

Karolina 21:43

Yep, that's what I said.

Dani 21:44

And he said, absolutely?

Karolina 21:46

Yeah. Because first I asked to not give me drugs at all, just epidural, and he also explained why you cannot do that, why you have to do it. But he also said, I'm gonna give you such a low dose just to make it smooth, you know, going into that canal. So you're not gonna really have it. You will, but you won't. And he was like, Are you feeling okay? And actually, one more thing. He came in like twice just to check on me. So he wasn't just like, you know, bye.

Dani 22:09

Well, my job here is done.

Karolina 22:11

Yes, he came and checked. And you know, it really takes one person. So that was my person. You know, I actually am a proof that yes, one story happened, but the other reversed it. It took me eight years, but I can tell that you know, you can have two different experiences with two different outcomes. And to beautiful boys with it, you know.

Emily 22:31

Yeah. Okay, so the second birth experience was very different. Did it help you with any healing that you hadn't already done?

Karolina 22:40

Absolutely. It was closure.

Closure, Healing & Reframing the Trauma

Emily 22:42

Yeah.

Karolina 22:43

It was closure to finally have an answer that A, I wasn't a failure nor my body.

Dani 22:49

It wasn't you.

Karolina 22:50

It wasn't me. They made me feel through all this six days in the hospital and then you know, going from a doctor to doctor asking for help, they made me feel it's something wrong with me, right? So I felt like a failure, right? And the anxiety that I experienced also just kind of diminished. Like it was gone. Like during that second labor, actually, when I was talking to that second anesthesiologist, it was just gone. It was like, oh my God, this is good. I feel good. I want to do this, you know? So yes, it gave me closure and it helped me understand that yes, medical gaslighting is real and they can really mess with your psyche, you know, they can mess with you, making you believe like they're just fine, and this is you, there's something wrong with you. Not to mention, I didn't have a milk supply. And they also made me believe through this process of like, stop stressing like that because you're not gonna have a milk supply. And then they would forcefully put that baby- yes.

Dani 23:42

Oh, well, if you're telling me to not stress out, then I guess I just won't stress out. Insert sarcasm here. Rude.

Emily 23:49

Good grief.

Karolina 23:50

But you know what? I'll tell you a very interesting thing. I didn't have a milk supply with my second baby, and I wasn't stressed at all. So guess what? It's just my body, it's fine. I came in acceptance, but first time I wasn't in acceptance, right? I was like, oh my god, it's because of stress. I need to calm down, I need to relax, I need to breastfeed.

Dani 24:08

They're telling you that you're not doing something right, and that's why. Again, all on you.

Karolina 24:13

It's all on me. So it was basically all on me back then.

Dani 24:17

Allegedly.

Karolina 24:20

But you know, hear about perinatal mental health, you know, we have a big spectrum, right? So you would think that my story is like a story of like a recipe to postpartum anxiety, postpartum depression, right? You cannot walk. Uh, your knee buckles, you cannot even walk with your baby and like cradle him. You cannot go for walks with your baby because you cannot hold a stroller. You can sit, but then someone needs to come and take your baby from you, someone needs to lift you up, someone needs to help you, you know, in the shower and the toilet and all those things.

The Role of Support in Postpartum Recovery

Dani 24:46

And cook your food and bring it to you and make sure that you're staying hydrated and...

Karolina 24:50

Yep.

Emily 24:51

How long did that recovery take?

Karolina 24:54

Uh, you know, like three months. Month was when I was really struggling with like this whole thing.

Dani 24:59

One month postpartum?

Karolina 25:01

Yes, one month postpartum. My husband is an athlete, so he kind of was able to train me how to do things with that leg. So he would move my leg. He would just, you know, we would just get up, up and down. My mom took three months off to stay with me.

Dani 25:14

Wow. Shout out to mom. Thanks, mom.

Karolina 25:17

I know, and that's actually what I want to tell you about anxiety disorders postpartum. Like, I feel that that support that I got protected me from actually going that route, you know. She was there with me. He was there with me from physical aspect, like training me. Get up and do, and we'd go for walks. We would go to Target with my little cane at nighttime, you know. We would work on it hard, you know. Target nighttime, you know, dates. But my mom told me- I know, funny, right? But we did have the date, you know, me with the cane.

Dani 25:47

Hot date at Target.

Emily 25:49

I mean, that sounds fun.

Karolina 25:50

Very romantic. We still do it. I'm kidding. Like, let's go to Target, honey.

Dani 25:57

Just for old times, you know. Remember?

Karolina 25:59

Let's get that babysitter.

Dani 26:00

Uh-huh.

Karolina 26:01

Really, like that support system, that village that we're talking about, right? Like, it takes the village. Like, I really, really had that village. And it really took one person. And you know, my mom's being a doctor herself, and doctor, not a doctor, just a neonatologist, that doctor, you know, taking care of my kiddo, helping me out, and telling me you're okay. And also, you know, I find myself really privileged because I had a village of other doctors, doctors from my home country that would call me for telehealth.

Dani 26:27

Oh.

Processing Trauma in Polish & Cultural Context

Karolina 26:27

Yes. And would help me, would help me with understanding, with validation, and with that, you know, that support that I'm gonna be okay.

Dani 26:35

I have a language nerd question. Did it feel good to be able to just process in Polish?

Karolina 26:42

Yes.

Dani 26:42

As opposed to trying to find a therapist in the US and then, you know, not being able to say the first thing that you're thinking.

Karolina 26:51

Absolutely. And especially back then, you know, when I still had that language barrier and stuff, you know, absolutely.

Dani 26:57

So you could just say, here's what's happening, here's what I'm feeling. And it's just–

Karolina 27:00

Yep. And I'll tell you, I did have a therapist, but I didn't have to search for it. So that's part of my village. My sister, my sister's a therapist herself.

Dani 27:09

Oh.

Karolina 27:09

And she was there with me. So she was, you know, I know it's a family, and you would say crossing boundaries and all that stuff, but that wasn't the thing. She was sitting with me and telling me, you're a therapist yourself. You know how that works. When you think this way, this is what's gonna happen. So, how can we reframe it? How can I help you? What do you need? And I was bombarded with kindness, with support, with validation, and with also understanding. Something that I didn't receive from these doctor over there in that hospital in my practice. My OBGYN was late to my six weeks' appointment, two hours late.

Dani 27:40

What?!

Karolina 27:40

Yes, and she came telling me why she's late. Then she didn't even really check me. She said, you're okay, you're feeling okay, right? Can you walk? And at that time I was still with my little cane, and even her, and that was the last appointment I actually went to that practice because I felt again dismissed, unvalidated, unsupported, and invisible. Invisible. So I left and I said thank you. Bye.

Dani 28:03

Thank you. Uh, I'll call you, don't call me.

Karolina 28:06

Yeah, no, don't call me. This is a breakup. This is a true breakup.

Dani 28:10

And for anybody listening that maybe is pregnant or will carry another baby later on, you know, if you experience this, it's okay to, you know, choose another doctor or you know, see somebody else if it's just not working and doesn't feel right, so.

Karolina 28:26

Absolutely.

Emily 28:26

Yeah.

Karolina 28:27

Yes. So you know what? And it's funny because then I say, you know, I'm prone to medical gaslighting because with my second baby, as much as everything was great, there was, you know, in practice, you see those different doctors, right? And because of my milestone age that we're not gonna tell anyone about.

Dani 28:42

Were you geriatric?

Karolina 28:44

Yes.

Dani 28:44

Sorry to bring it up.

Karolina 28:45

I feel so geriatric, you know, now I sweat like a geriatric, you know, I'm there. But anyway, so you know what? I had to be induced, right? So you know how that goes in a geriatric pregnancy, you know. I had to be induced, which I was not opposed because I was like, okay, the other one was unplanned. This one's gonna be scheduled and planned. And you know, that doctor is coming, and it was the day before I actually deliver. So she's coming to the office and she's like, so we have your date. And it was two weeks, two weeks after my due date, and I was supposed to be induced a week before my due date, just in case, right?

Finding Her Voice During the Second Birth

Dani 29:19

Oh.

Karolina 29:20

She said you know, we reserved the room, and I was like, wait, what?

Dani 29:22

Hang on a second. I thought we were uh just about done here. I'm ready to wrap it up.

Karolina 29:26

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That was my last, was supposed to be my last appointment. And you know what she said? No, you got it wrong, honey. And I was like, first, I'm not your honey, and second, I didn't get that wrong. I know when my due date was supposed to be, and she's like, no, no. She's like, no, look, see, we have it all here. She came with the paper, and I look at her and I was like, shaking. My blood pressure is always high up. She's letting me go home. That night I ended in the hospital because my baby's not moving, you know.

Dani 29:53

Oh.

Karolina 29:54

That was 38 weeks. The baby's not moving. They let me go home. The doctor is like, well, we got the you know, movements we wanted, da-da-da. The next morning I'm going to my nonstress test, and they are like, yeah, no, you're gonna go and be induced right now. And I was like, wait, what?

Dani 30:08

But the day before, your doctor said, uh-uh, we're gonna wait a couple more weeks?

Karolina 30:12

And you know, whoever is listening, I'll tell you how I found my voice. She came after my delivery, she had rounds in the hospital, so she had to come to my room. You know.

Dani 30:20

Interesting.

Karolina 30:21

She came to my room and she's like, Karolina, what happened? And I said, you happened. And I literally said, you happened. And she's like, what? And I was like, you stressed me out. Look at this. And she's like, What do you mean? Everything was great in our appointment. I was like, no, it wasn't.

Dani 30:36

No, it wasn't.

Karolina 30:37

And I actually said my piece.

Dani 30:39

Whoa.

Karolina 30:39

And she was like, you know, so it was meant to be. And I was like, right?

Dani 30:43

Uh-huh.

Turning Anger Into Advocacy

Karolina 30:43

And she laughed. And she left. Not wanting to like check me, she called the nurse and all that stuff. But I felt empowered, you know. I really felt empowered that I was able to say, like, no, you happened. You happened. You again medically gaslighted me, making me believe that I'm crazy when I knew that I wasn't. And this time, you know, eight years later, I knew I wasn't. And I wasn't, you know, playing that little game. And that was also like you asking how that second experience changed me. That was also my closure because I actually experienced again that someone told me something different, and I was able to say, like, nah, mm-mm, you. This is on you lady, not me.

Dani 31:21

Mm-hmm.

Karolina 31:21

And I found my voice.

Emily 31:23

Wow.

Karolina 31:24

Yeah. What a story. But you know what? That helped me really. That anger, that frustration, I turned it into motivation. So you really can take your anger and turn it into something good. And I did. Motivation to recover, motivation to work with women, that actually strengthened my, you know, desire to work with women. And that's what I'm all about. Helping them to find their voice, you know, because they come so fragile. They come so like, I don't know, should I ask? Or can I say this? Yeah. So I'm really embracing our female voice. You know, we have to find that voice because I feel like we really can be manipulated, gaslighted, and just, you know, I don't know, people can make us feel like it's us.

Dani 32:01

Especially the first. With the first delivery, I mean, I just didn't know. I thought I had to listen to what the doctors were telling me. And I just, I didn't know. I didn't know yet. I didn't have enough lived experience to go, I don't know about this. Because it was my first time.

Karolina 32:16

Right.

Dani 32:17

Like it was my entree into the parenting world and everything was new to me.

Karolina 32:21

Yes.

Emily 32:22

It's a little bit like the first time you go to a restaurant. Stay with me on this. This is gonna work.

Dani 32:27

Okay. Everybody buckle up.

Emily 32:29

When you go to a restaurant that's like very specialized, or like, you know, like one of those fondue places where you have to cook all your own food, right? And they have to explain to you the process. Or if you've never been to like a Tapist restaurant and you don't know that you need to order like five plates because everything is like small portions. So like you go into a restaurant the first time and they're like, have you ever been here before? And you're like, no, right? All of these doctors, when we go in for labor, they know that this is like our first labor and delivery because our chart will say if it is not, right? It'll say, whether we have a baby at home or not, it's still gonna say that we have done this part of the process before on labor and delivery. So they know that we don't know anything. You would think that they would want to bring us along in the same way that like that anesthesiologist for your second did, brought you along and like explained the process to you, explained the options to you.

Karolina 33:29

Yeah.

Emily 33:30

Why not? Why not share that knowledge and that passion for this career path that you all, hello, have chosen.

Karolina 33:38

Right.

Emily 33:39

Like walk with us through this process instead of go stay out of my way. I'm in charge here.

Dani 33:44

Here's what's gonna happen. Okay, so like the waiter will not say, or server, what are we saying today? Waiter, server? Anyway, whatever. They're not saying here's how it works and this is what you're going to order.

Emily 33:57

Right.

Dani 33:58

They're saying these are the options. Some people do this, some people do this. Is this the full circle restaurant story moment?

Emily 34:05

Yes.

Karolina 34:05

Yep, yep, yep.

Emily 34:06

And then you leave the restaurant going, you know what? I liked it there. I'm gonna go again.

Dani 34:11

Or next time, I don't know if I'd do that, but maybe I'll try- Maybe there's something else on the menu.

Karolina 34:17

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dani 34:18

I think I might try that. This other thing uh wasn't really my cup of tea. Thought it might be. Turns out it's not.

Karolina 34:24

Yeah.

Emily 34:24

Because you thought about not getting the epidural the second time, right? Like you were like on the fence about it.

Karolina 34:30

For a slight moment.

Dani 34:31

Oh, for a moment. Okay. But the anesthesiologist though really helped her feel confident.

Karolina 34:38

Yes.

Emily 34:39

Yes.

Karolina 34:39

You know, and I'll tell you why. My theory about the restaurant is that you know, you know, those restaurants where like um they can give you that, I think it's one in Philly, when you have that assemble line and the sushi comes in it and you just pick whatever sushi you want.

Dani 34:51

Oh, like a conveyor belt.

Karolina 34:52

Yeah, yeah, yeah, like a conveyor belt, exactly. And you like pick one this, you know, and-

Dani 34:56

I'll have an epidural, but I'm waiting for the little one to come along, not the big one. I don't want like- I don't want like a spinal block situation, so I'm gonna keep watching to see what comes along.

Karolina 35:07

Uh-huh let me choose those options. But also, what Emily said, I also, you know, you said like why every doctor cannot be like that. Well, because I think that we, pregnant women, are sitting on the conveyor belt. We are sitting, and they're like, next, next.

Emily 35:20

Yes.

Karolina 35:21

Like, we cannot stop you. Why are you talking so much? We have other women, you know, in the line here. So please go.

Dani 35:27

Like, I've only got four and a half minutes in this room. Then I need to go to-

Emily 35:31

They are overscheduled, right? So, like, some of it's their fault and some of it isn't, right? So, like, there are too many people and not enough doctors in a lot of places to provide the kind of care that they probably want to provide.

Karolina 35:44

Yeah.

Emily 35:44

There are doctors who are too afraid of being sued.

Karolina 35:49

Yes.

Emily 35:50

And so they want to stay in control, which means they don't give us the knowledge we need to make informed choices about our care.

Dani 35:59

I wonder if that's a similar thing in other countries outside the US. Like, are anesthesiologists, for example, as worried about being sued if something went wrong?

Emily 36:10

Americans are uniquely into suing people.

Dani 36:13

We're number one!

Karolina 36:16

I really think so. And I think it's also mentality of people too, because like in my home country, Poland, like you don't sue doctors. Like, they're just like the pedestal doctors, and even if they mess up, like rarely they're being sued. You know, so it's a little bit of a difference, but not to mention epidurals started being used not that long ago here either. Like, women were like in a natural, you know, environment. That's how you're supposed to do it. Like, you know, the Polish mother myth.

Dani 36:42

Oh.

Emily 36:43

No, tell me.

Dani 36:44

Okay, wait. The Polish mother myth. Ooh.

Karolina 36:47

Yes, that's a real thing. You know, you're a tough cookie, you need to do it all, you know. Don't be dramatic. Your mother and grandmother did it like by the, you know, like whatever, a fence or something, you know, so don't complain. Yeah, so that still exists. But you know what? But on one hand, yes, we get that, but on the other hand, we have so much support, you know, that village that I told you about, like that's not unique to my family. That's actually very Polish family-oriented attitude. So when mother is struggling, you know, her mother's gonna come and be like, don't be dramatic, but then she's gonna take that baby, she's gonna say it, but then she'll clean your house, take your baby, tell you to take a nap, you know, with this voice.

Dani 37:27

Okay.

Karolina 37:27

Yeah, and you're like, okay, mom.

Dani 37:29

But she's cooking, you got soup on the stove.

Emily 37:33

Don't get too whiny about it.

Karolina 37:34

Yeah, don't get too whiny, don't get whiny, you know. Like, just shush. You do you, go to sleep, and I'll take care of everything.

Dani 37:42

Right.

Emily 37:42

Okay, so the Polish mother myth, I just want to make sure I'm getting this right, like is like there's like strength in sort of like grittiness, right? Like, just tough.

Karolina 37:52

Yes, you need to be tough.

Emily 37:54

You can do it all.

Karolina 37:55

Yes.

Dani 37:56

Slash I'm gonna help take care of you, so.

Emily 37:58

Right.

Karolina 37:58

Always. And see, and that's that paradox, right? Like they say one thing as a family–

Polish vs American Motherhood Culture

Dani 38:03

And then just close in and hold you, really.

Karolina 38:07

Yes. You know, as I said, we're very like sarcastic and very like harsh and all that stuff, but so kind and generous and all, you know, like in Poland when you ask a mother, how are you? you're not gonna hear, oh I'm good. You're gonna hear, oh my god, this is horrible. I've been not sleeping for five nights. So you get the raw, real truth.

Emily 38:26

Right.

Karolina 38:27

There's no sugar coating. And sometimes, you know, like in America, when I'm like, How are you? Even to my clients, they're like, fine. And I'm like, okay, but how are you? You know.

Dani 38:36

My favorite was my doctor would ask me that, and I'd go, Fine, how are you?

Karolina 38:40

Exactly.

Dani 38:41

It's like I blacked out at the appointments and was more like, you know, concerned about looking like things were under control, I guess. I don't know. But you don't have to do that, everybody. Everybody listening. Don't- don't do that.

Karolina 38:52

Yeah, no, no. Be raw, be real, be truthful. Like that's why we ask, how are you? Right? We don't ask to get: I'm good. What is good?

Dani 39:00

How are you feeling emotionally?

Karolina 39:03

Exactly.

Emily 39:04

I have a resolution of birth trauma question. I want to go back in time again. So you've had your first baby, you have recovered physically, you are now able to like walk normally. Your sister is providing, let's call it like therapeutic peer support, right? Like your sister is like talking you through and like challenging your thinking.

Karolina 39:28

Yes.

Emily 39:28

But not actually like billing therapy, right? Like she's just helping you.

Karolina 39:33

We do a pro bono for everyone, listen. That's another Polish thing.

Dani 39:36

Oh.

Karolina 39:38

Please come! Everything's free. Come.

Emily 39:41

Oh my god, I love it.

Karolina 39:42

Go ahead. I'm sorry.

Emily 39:44

So, did you need other support or help in order to like feel like you were okay to get pregnant again? What else had to happen for you to go: I am willing to try this again?

Dani 39:58

You had a therapist.

Karolina 39:59

No.

Dani 40:00

Oh.

Karolina 40:00

I had a hard time. See, but here's the thing. No, no, no, because I wasn't, you know, again, 10 years ago, almost eight years ago, there was not really perinatal mental health therapist. So I went to a therapist and she was like, yeah, that sucks. So, how are you feeling? I'm just telling you how I'm feeling. I didn't get what I needed. I didn't want just a therapy session. I had those venting sessions on a regular basis at home. I wanted that perinatal approach to my life. I wanted that, you know, holding type of therapy. Someone that would actually feel it. Not to mention, like the therapists were like either, you know, someone that had kids that were older, someone that didn't even know what PMADs were, and I had to explain about birth trauma, and someone that actually, you know, would tell me, like, you know what? Birth trauma is real. You don't have to be diagnosed. If you're telling me you have birth trauma, I believe you. You have birth trauma because this is your experience.

Dani 40:53

If it felt traumatic–

Karolina 40:54

Exactly.

Emily 40:55

That is my favorite thing about PSI is like we're like, if you have a label and you know what it is, great. If you have labeled yourself, also great. If you are like, I don't know, I don't know. We're like, yeah, it's fine. Come on.

Dani 41:08

Both of us were undiagnosed first time around.

Karolina 41:11

Mm-hmm. So, yeah, so I did. There was like two sessions, you know, back then, also because I couldn't walk, it was telehealth, and everyone kind of was like, telehealth? Back then was again like, uh, you're not gonna come to the office? And then my husband was working and I had to go to work, right? I was working community mental health, so it was also a practice that I had to go to work. So, what happened then, I realized, like, you know what, if I'm gonna go and be frustrated, the two sessions were frustrating. I was like, I'm wasting my time. I wanna be with the baby. I already cannot walk. I want to spend as much time as I want with him. And that bonding, that bonding with him, my mother, the biggest supporter, you know, ever. My husband, like walking and pacing, how can we help? Let's go and work out on this and all that stuff. My sister calling me every five minutes, not to mention friends and those doctors that were constantly checking on me. Like we had friends doctors, you know, those are not just collegues of my mom's.

Emily 41:59

Calling long distance from Poland to talk to you.

Karolina 42:01

Yes.

Dani 42:02

Ah, okay.

Karolina 42:03

That was something that I feel helped me. Helped me with that anxiety that I did have. Helped me tremendously because I would get stressed out. What if I never walk again? What if I'm not gonna be able to hold the baby? What if I go for a walk and I drop the baby because the stroller is gonna go? And I had those thoughts. Even later on, I'll tell you within the first year, yes, within the first year, I had those thoughts. They were passing thoughts because I know, I work in this. I knew that those are just thoughts, and I let them pass. I put them on a cloud while I was walking, go away, thoughts.

Dani 42:33

Ooh, little visualization.

Emily 42:35

That's good.

Dani 42:36

Ooh, that was skilled.

Karolina 42:37

Yes. So I was able to turn that anxiety into that motivation, you know, to get better. And I really, really worked really hard mentally. I read all the books, mindfulness. That was my thing. You know, my mom was helping me, so I knew I had that time. Mindfulness books, self-care books. Like that was the time when actually I embraced the most knowledge that I now share with my clients, you know.

Dani 42:58

Oh.

Emily 42:58

Yeah.

Karolina 42:59

I feel I was so lucky, and that's why PMADs are so still unknown because you don't know what's causing it, right? It may be this, it may be that, you know. But I'm an example of like, you know what? Hormonal changes, support, uh, not having milk supply, you know, feeling like a failure. And then yet I was still able to be quite okay. That anxiety didn't take control over me. You know, it was lingering, it was there, you know, for a long time. As I said, like even a year after when my knee would not feel really good, when I still had my KT tapes, you know, around my knee. Oh, yeah, those thoughts would still come, but they wouldn't overpower me, you know, they would linger, but not overpower me. So yeah, mindfulness really helped.

Dani 43:38

Wow.

Emily 43:38

That's so good. I think that we have this fear that like talking about a mental illness makes it contagious.

Karolina 43:47

Yeah.

Emily 43:48

Sometimes. And I'm seeing a big shift in the last three, four or five years, maybe, in doctors and providers being willing to talk to patients about like, here are the risk factors. Here are the things to look for after you've had a baby while you're pregnant, et cetera, et cetera. But what you're describing is like you had the knowledge of what postpartum and perinatal mental health might look like.

Karolina 44:15

Yeah.

Emily 44:16

And you were able to remain self-aware instead of go, oh, this is just who I am now. I'm the person who pictures horrible things in my head happening to my baby.

Karolina 44:27

Yeah.

Emily 44:27

And not being able to like name it. And I don't think that knowledge of the thing is the same as the ability to control those thoughts. But there is so much power in being able to label the thing for what it really is.

Dani 44:46

The whole name it to tame it kind of idea.

Karolina 44:49

Yeah.

Emily 44:49

Yes.

Dani 44:50

That is helpful for some people to just be able to kind of like almost like step outside your body and kind of look at yourself and go, oh, this is not some sort of character flaw that you had. You had some things going on for you.

Emily 45:03

Or I am anxious right now, or I am triggered right now. Like being able to say or see. Yeah.

Karolina 45:12

Yes. And that's a third-person perspective that I truly use myself and I tell other people, my clients, about it. Like take your emotions out of it. You're watching a movie about someone else's life. What are you seeing? Observe it, name it, and then put yourself in that position of a passive observer rather than active participant. And that makes a huge difference. And it really worked for me. And that knowledge I share with others. And it helps, you know. I am true believer in a third person perspective when our emotional brain is turned off and the rational one is just kicking in. You know, you can see much more. And that actually, yes, that did help me really. And labeling, you know, helps too. So yeah, I did a lot of work on myself. I think like the self-discovery and self-identity shift that I experienced back then, you know, with the bad and the good was tremendous. And I always encourage people to do that. You know, don't lose yourself in this trauma of yours or anxiety, you know, that doesn't define you. You are who you are. This is the extra that we need to work on. So, you know? Yeah.

Emily 46:13

I've been thinking about. So when we interviewed Nikki Pensak, that was the first time we talked about matrescence, right? And as you're saying this, I'm like, you already had the knowledge before you had your first baby.

Karolina 46:26

Yeah.

Emily 46:27

This is what perinatal mental health is. These are some of the things. And then you experienced, at least in some ways, some of those parts of it. And you were interested in, I don't know, the self-reflection.

Karolina 46:42

Self-discovery.

Emily 46:44

Like, how do I discover my new self? Yes. It's like you were poised for tremendous growth.

Dani 46:52

Neuroplasticity.

Emily 46:54

Yeah.

Karolina 46:55

Good, yes. Neuroplasticity, absolutely. Good one. Yes, absolutely. And it's also, you know, like, yes, our identity shifts when we have a baby, no matter if we have birth trauma or any sort of postpartum stuff. Like it shifts. Even if you have everything the way it's supposed to be, you're not the same person at all. So you still have to go through like the rediscovering yourself. And when you have like some extras, you know, like the birth trauma, on the top of self-identity, you also have something else that you need to work on and make sense of, you know. And sometimes it takes eight years, but you get where you want to be and where you're supposed to be, you know. That is a journey. That really is a journey. The journey that I love to share with other people because I'm not afraid, because I want to talk loudly, because I believe that everyone needs to find that voice. Voice that I didn't have, you know, and now I do.

Dani 47:42

High five.

Emily 47:43

Yeah.

Dani 47:43

High five.

Karolina 47:44

Yay!

Dani 47:45

Eight years was like the magic number. I think that's when I started therapy and finally started processing my postpartum things, you know, something about eight years.

Karolina 47:52

I know.

Dani 47:52

It's like, oh, it's okay, okay for us to talk about it. Yeah.

Karolina 47:56

Yeah, I'm proud of you. Very good.

Emily 47:59

Okay. I want to know how you got connected to PSI. Did you get connected to PSI in 2008 when you were like- you're hitting Google real hard and you're like, aha.

Karolina 48:08

That's exactly what I did. You know, I Googled, I tried to find things, you know, and then that popped up. So I read everything and then I researched everything. And as I said at the beginning, you know, then when certification came into place, I went through this, you know, mount 2020 program.

Emily 48:22

You were like, Yes.

Karolina 48:24

Yes, yes, yes, yes. So I really love that. And then, you know, as I said a few months ago, I was like, let me apply to be a volunteer, you know, coordinator in Poland. Let me do more. And that's actually the highlight, you know. Like, I wanted to achieve something more than just a certification. I wanted to do more. Again, in a country that still needs a lot of work. We need a lot of work. But I think Poland needs really lots of work. And I would love to do that work. So hopefully, you know, there's something brewing there, you know. Oh, for sure.

Dani 48:54

That's really incredible. As a coordinator, do you get questions from folks? Like a help seeker reaches out to PSI and they say, I'm in Poland, and...?

Karolina 49:05

Yes, but no.

Dani 49:06

Oh, okay.

Emily 49:07

Yeah, how does it work?

Dani 49:08

Tell us more.

Karolina 49:09

I'll tell you why. Because yeah, nobody really knows about PSI in Poland. Like I'm hitting a lot of walls. Yet. That's my number one goal to spread the awareness that there is something like that. I would love to create something. You know, we have Spanish, we have different languages, but there's no Polish, you know, like nobody thinks about Polish language that much. You know, we have Russian because it's, you know, the big country. We have English, French, but we also have Polish. So I would love to translate some of those things to Polish. And I think spreading that awareness would help us with PSI to get more people reaching out. There's no translation for the website. I mean, thankfully Google can translate right now, but you have to know about something, you know. So when I get inquiries, I get it from my personal website. I did create a few months ago. That was also my biggest goal to create a Polish website with Polish content about all of the PMADs and also where to find help. What are the resources? What are the podcasts you can listen to, you know? And English is our second language here. So who doesn't speak English? Really rarely we don't. So people can read, listen, and stuff like that. So finally I did that. And that's actually when I started having people reaching out to me. And that was before I became coordinator.

Dani 50:17

Okay.

Karolina 50:18

That's what prompted me.

Dani 50:20

Yeah. You were like, wow, there's a huge need here. So we will put a link to- can we put a link to your website in the show notes? Okay. So if anybody is Polish or has friends that are Polish or acquaintances and could use some resources.

Emily 50:35

I have a Polish neighbor she goes back to Poland every year, although not this year, because she's got a kid going to college this year. So they went somewhere else. I don't remember. But like I'm gonna pass it along to her because if she's going back every year, she knows other Polish folks who might be having babies.

Karolina 50:55

Yeah. Yeah, please. I mean, it's a great, it's not a scary page, it's just a page with the raw information, something legit, something informational, you know.

Dani 51:03

Yeah.

Karolina 51:03

And I think we really need that in Poland, you know, just something that is true.

Dani 51:08

And so when people reach out to you on your website, what's on there? Like, do you help people find therapists in Poland and the US?

Karolina 51:20

And the US, because we have a huge Polish population in the US, and also sometimes in Britain, with Great Britain, that's another hub, right? For Polish people. So yes, they do reach out. Like I have a few of those, and you know, finding someone is the hardest. So I do tell them about PSI directory. You can pick the language and you can find through that. Or I manually try to do that. I'm creating actually the directory of therapists that I believe I would feel comfortable sending people to, but you know, I check their Instagrams or I check their website. Sometimes I'm like, okay, what training did you have?

Dani 51:49

Yeah.

Karolina 51:50

Yeah. So that's what's lacking in my home country. The legit trainings, you know. And I would hope that maybe PSI will expand to other countries to create something that would actually be legit.

Emily 52:01

We might have to go to Europe. I don't know.

Dani 52:03

Site visit!

Karolina 52:04

Please, it's gorgeous. I come from Krakow, one of the medieval towns with all the kings and oldest universities in the world. Like, yeah.

Dani 52:12

I've never been to Poland.

Karolina 52:13

Gorgeous.

Dani 52:14

Emily, we'll have like a personal tour guide.

Emily 52:18

I have family from Krakow and Ukraine, but it wasn't Ukraine then.

Karolina 52:23

Oh you would love it. Please come.

Dani 52:25

Okay, we'll call you later.

Karolina 52:26

Yes, please, please.

Dani 52:28

Okay.

Emily 52:29

I heard we have a place to stay.

Karolina 52:31

We can arrange that too, we got this. We got this. Yes.

Dani 52:35

We'll talk after the episode here. Um okay. Are we ready to jump into the lightning round? My favorite part, yes. The most burning questions.

Karolina 52:45

I've been waiting for it.

Dani 52:46

Okay. What is your second favorite podcast? If you were to recommend a podcast, obviously, besides this one.

Karolina 52:54

Yeah, you know what? Yours is the best, right? We know, number one! But we're talking about the second good one. So the second good one, in my personal you know, booklet. I don't know if you've never ever heard about podcasts called Nothing Much Happens.

Dani 53:08

No. First time recommendation here.

Emily 53:12

Whoa.

Karolina 53:13

Yes, this is the podcast ran by Kathryn Nicolai.

Dani 53:17

Okay.

Karolina 53:17

She also has a book about that and stuff. It's a guided imagery podcast. It's fantastic. You know, the way she tells the stories will really help you to transfer yourself in a different place, in a different world. Because you know what's funny? The funny thing is that she has real, like real stuff, but she also has like out of ordinary, observe, funny podcasts that are really helping you, especially people with like obsessive thoughts and rumination, you know. There's this one podcast I will tell you, I was thinking which one to mention. So I have three like really good ones. So one's it's called like the Evening of 4th of July. So then she talks about like concerts on the grass, you know, and like you know, picnics, so kind of normal, right? Regular. Then I have this one that it's called, I wrote it, the Cabin in the Summer. And this one is more about like, you know, sunny gardens and what's happening in a garden. But here is my favorite one. It's called the Cake Parade.

Dani 54:11

This is an episode on Nothing Much Happens. Okay.

Karolina 54:15

Yes, it does.

Dani 54:16

The Cake Parade.

Karolina 54:17

The Cake Parade is actually a parade for a cake being held in a little small town where you know everyone gathers for that cake parade. So they are like dressed up in their favorite pastries, you know, and there's a marching band for the cake, and then there's this cake coming in, you know, with the smell of vanilla.

Dani 54:36

Oh.

Karolina 54:36

And with the laughter of people, and it's a sunny, breezy day.

Dani 54:40

Is this podcast something that you would listen to when you like, just to kind of like calm your mind and kind of like bring yourself to center, kind of, and just think, okay, there's a lot going on up here. She gives so much description so you can be like...

Karolina 54:59

Yeah, so you basically for like sleeping, for grounding yourself, for guided imagery if you're anxious, so you can pick- even her website. If you go to like Nothing Much Happens website,

Dani 55:10

Okay.

Karolina 55:10

the website is calming and she gives you descriptions of each episode in like such a way of like a few sentences that you already feel better. Like this is the podcast about sunny garden that you're walking through with your dog, you know?

Emily 55:23

Yeah.

Dani 55:24

Is it in English? Polish?

Karolina 55:26

No, no, no, it's an English podcast. Yeah, she's American. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there's a book about that stuff too. I mean, I found it years, years ago. I don't even know if that was in like that 10 years ago when I actually needed it ground myself because I don't even know when was the beginning of this, but this is my to-go-to when I'm like, okay, I need a moment, and they are short. And sometimes I turn the podcast of like making a salad. There is a podcast about like- episode about making a salad, and you go to the kitchen and you open the fridge. You know, simplicity of it.

Dani 55:53

I'm gonna check that out.

Emily 55:54

Yes.

Karolina 55:55

You definitely have to. Refreshing, very refreshing.

Emily 55:58

That sounds good.

Dani 55:59

Do you think that this is a good podcast like for like a teenager that needs help going to sleep, or is this more of like an adult kind of a thing?

Karolina 56:07

Oh no. Even my kid. I turned on the Cake Parade for my 10-year-old, and he's like, this is weird, mommy. But I was like, but did you hear it? And he's like, well, yeah, imagine everything.

Dani 56:16

Sometimes I'm like, why is there a murder podcast on in her bedroom? Yeah, this is not- this is not a bedtime thing. Stop.

Emily 56:24

Click.

Dani 56:24

I'll put this on my list of things to suggest to my teenager that has a hard time falling asleep. That's up there with uh, well, whatever. This isn't my episode. We're talking about you. Okay. I have to be a guest if I want to give suggestions. Okay.

Karolina 56:37

But I'm so happy nobody ever mentioned that. I'm happy to bring something refreshing here.

Dani 56:41

Yeah. Oh, this is great. Never heard it. First time.

Lightning Round

Emily 56:43

Okay. Next question. Are you binge watching or like listening to or reading anything really, really good? What do we need to add to our queue?

Karolina 56:53

You know what? I was thinking uh watching. What what what is watching?

Dani 56:57

Oh, like on TV, like watching...

Karolina 56:59

Um what TV? Hold on.

Emily 57:01

So the TV is a thing in your living room that emits blue light and makes it hard for you to sleep. Yeah.

Karolina 57:09

So we- we're supposed to know what that is, right? You know, you hear the sarcasm? Yeah, no. I don't even know when was the last time I turned the TV on. I have everything in my list, you know, a binge list, and the list is growing. And I don't know if I'm ever gonna be able to get to it, but one day, one day, but I can tell you books. Yes, I read a lot of books. I start them and I have a lot of books everywhere.

Dani 57:30

This is a throwback question.

Karolina 57:32

Yeah.

Dani 57:33

Do you prefer to listen to a book? You like a book in your ear or a book in your hand?

Karolina 57:37

I love to hold the book, I love the smell of the book.

Dani 57:40

Oh, yeah.

Karolina 57:40

You know, remember I'm geriatric, so I'm old school, right?

Dani 57:43

Yeah.

Karolina 57:44

I love reading books, so I really do. And you know, I'm one of those people that love to see the end. They read the whole book, but I'm always going to the end. How does it end?

Dani 57:55

You're a skipper! Oh.

Karolina 57:56

Uh-huh love it. And the same with movies. My husband is like, do you want to know how it ends? And I'm like, yep, yep, tell me, tell me, tell me. I may never watch it all, but tell me how it ends.

Dani 58:06

So you like to skip to the end in books and on TV, and you're like, eh, I don't need the, you know,

Karolina 58:13

Yeah, the insight and the-

Dani 58:14

Yeah, I don't need to know how the characters evolve, you know, whatever.

Karolina 58:17

But you know, funny thing is that I still read it, you know, but I love the ending.

Dani 58:20

You like to know what to expect.

Emily 58:22

Yes, that's what I was gonna say. I'm like, you don't want to be surprised.

Karolina 58:26

I don't really I like surprises. Uh-uh.

Dani 58:29

That's okay.

Karolina 58:29

And you know what is funny, I've been married for so long, and my husband is like, you know, I know you want to get your gift, you know, for your birthday like two days early. And I'm like, okay, okay. Do you want to know what you get for Christmas? And I'm like, okay.

Dani 58:40

That is very interesting.

Karolina 58:42

Very interesting. You know, we all, you know, in this world, there's a lot of different people. So I'm like...

Dani 58:47

It's okay. You know what you like.

Karolina 58:48

Blame it on cultural difference. Blame it on cultural difference. I love that one. So, anyways, but I'll tell you. So, two books that I'm doing. One is a short one, one is my favorite perinatal book. So one is like I actually was in Denmark and I picked up that book, Hygge.

Dani 59:01

Oh!

Karolina 59:01

Yes.

Dani 59:02

Yes, it's like small and like it's like a light color, but like pretty, like red and blue.

Karolina 59:09

Yes, yes, yes. So this is the book about happiness, right? Danish people are considered the happiest in the world, and I've been starting to read that, and I'm not fully done yet, but the beginning about the lighting, about the candles, about rain and simplicity and coziness. So good.

Dani 59:25

It's really kind of like also it's like about being in the moment.

Karolina 59:29

Absolutely. So that's the one I'm on. But I'll tell you, recently I was reorganizing my bookshelf, and I picked up the book that I truly love. This is like the third time I'm reading it. I love it. It's called Bringing Up Bebe. Have you ever heard about that? Bringing Up Bebe by Pamela Druckerman.

Emily 59:44

Oh.

Karolina 59:44

Really good book. I'll tell you why. So this is the book about an American lady that moves to France.

Dani 59:48

Oh.

Karolina 59:49

And she's starting raising her baby and has a cultural shock. And is like, wait, what? It's a book about normalizing motherhood, about there's nothing right or wrong. There is, you know, a book that is embracing boundaries but also not losing yourself in the whole motherhood, mom and dad roles. That book just talks about balance, that you can have balance, that you don't have to know it all, that there is no right way of raising your children, that you don't have to put that pressure on yourself, that you basically got this. So it's really, really laid-back book and funny. She's funny.

Dani 1:00:23

You know, in a day and age where there are so many opinions and self-help books about like, or well, just you should do this, you should parent this way, you should buy this product. It is very important to hear the message that there isn't one right way to do it.

Karolina 1:00:39

Nope.

Dani 1:00:40

Like to do anything.

Karolina 1:00:41

Yes.

Dani 1:00:41

Well, I mean, if you're baking something, it's kind of science. So, like, you know, you need to like have the right amounts of things, but...

Karolina 1:00:47

Yes, you're absolutely right. There is no right or wrong way. There is like we're learning, we don't have to know it all. So she talks in that book about that, and I'll tell you the best part in the book. You flip the book. I like the ending, right? So you flip the book, and at the end there's a manual for dads.

Dani 1:01:00

Oh.

Karolina 1:01:01

That manual for dads is what makes this book so unique. It's short, it's simple, it's funny, and it's actually something that even my husband read. You know?

Dani 1:01:11

Even your husband read it.

Karolina 1:01:14

Even my husband read it 10 years ago. Yes, yes, and we had a laughing session because it's really cute, it's really short, you know, and simple. Like it's supposed to be, right? Simple, short and simple.

Dani 1:01:24

I need short and simple. I can't handle long chapters. Give me some short chapters with a heading so I know what to expect, and I can stop when a kid comes in and you know, I need to put it- anyway.

Karolina 1:01:37

That's that. So if you've never read that one, and it's not just for like expecting parents or something. Like I recommend that book to like my mothers, you know, that are having kids in like preteens or like- it's really good to just get distance to that whole motherhood perspective, you know. So really, really great book, Bringing Up Bebe.

Dani 1:01:53

Okay, awesome.

Emily 1:01:54

That sounds good.

Dani 1:01:55

Um, do you have a great parenting hack that you'd like to share with our listeners?

Karolina 1:02:00

Yeah, you know, um, what I've learned from being a mom is that you have to learn how to regulate your own nervous system and your own emotional senses and things. So this is a hard one. I'm still learning how to do that, you know. But what I've learned, and I always tell people, you have to start naming your emotions. So my son would come to me and say, mom, I am really frustrated with you right now. And you know what I say? Victory, honey, I'm so proud of you. And he's like, mom, I just told you I'm frustrated with you. And I said, and I'm hearing your emotions, and I'm very proud of you because I've been doing this even when he was little, you know, my 10-year-old, I've been saying, Mommy needs a break, mommy needs five minutes because mommy is really getting frustrated. Or when we cry, you know how moms are like, mommy's not crying, mommy's okay. No, no, no. I've been saying mommy's crying, mommy needs a moment. I'm sad, you know, this is how I'm feeling, and I'm letting you know. And I'm not hiding it, I'm not gonna portray that everything is great. No, no, it's okay. I can have those feelings. So, you know, regulating the nervous system, regulating your emotions, naming your emotions, help that kid to also start regulating their own. You know?

Dani 1:03:06

Not only does that help the kid, I know personally that helped me, has helped, is still helping, will always continue to help me grow and like honor myself by saying, out loud, I'm feeling really overwhelmed right now.

Karolina 1:03:22

Yep, yep.

Dani 1:03:23

I'm just going to go outside for two minutes and then I'll be right back. But it helps like give myself permission to not feel like I need to stay in this highly stressful situation. I'm getting way overstimulated, no chance of coming down from whatever is stressing me out, whatever. Um, yes, naming your emotions. Good for the kids, good for the adults. Excellent suggestion. I like it.

Karolina 1:03:49

Good. I'm happy that you like it.

Dani 1:03:51

Thanks. Emily, what's the next question? This is so lightning-y. This is the fastest round ever.

Emily 1:03:57

What is one way that you are gonna show yourself some radical love today?

Karolina 1:04:06

You know, and I was thinking about it actually today, and I've changed it a few times, right? Like, what am I gonna do? Right, but I'll tell you. So I am going to give myself permission to rest without guilt.

Dani 1:04:17

Oh, yeah.

Karolina 1:04:18

That's my big one, you know, that's everyone's big one, right? Guilt, rest. Like, I shouldn't be resting, I should be more productive.

Dani 1:04:23

We live in a fast-paced world, you know? Like it's okay to slow down.

Karolina 1:04:27

Absolutely. And you know, as therapists, we always hold space for everyone, but we sometimes don't hold space for ourselves, right?

Emily 1:04:34

Yes.

Karolina 1:04:34

I am guilty of saying, I can squeeze one more session. I am guilty also for saying, like, you know, I was supposed to have a day off, but if I have one session like at 7 p.m., like my kid can wait, we can watch that movie later. And then you look at that kid of yours and they're like, what? But we were supposed to- and then you're like, ugh, so you feel guilty for your client that wanted to see you feel guilty for your kid that is waiting to watch a movie. So you are like, I cannot win, right?

Emily 1:04:58

Yeah.

Karolina 1:04:58

And in those moments, you have to remind yourself it's okay to say no. Set the boundaries that you're teaching your clients to set, just tell yourself it's okay, you need to rest. And you know, I have this favorite quote of mine give the world what's best of you, and not what's left of you.

Dani 1:05:13

Oh, hang on. Excuse me while I write this down, taking notes.

Karolina 1:05:17

Yeah.

Emily 1:05:17

yeah.

Karolina 1:05:17

Isn't that a good one?

Emily 1:05:19

Give the world what's best of you, not what's left of you.

Karolina 1:05:24

Yeah.

Dani 1:05:25

Coming to the internet soon. That's a great quote.

Karolina 1:05:28

Right, but isn't that so raw and honest? Because that's the truth, you know. Sometimes like I feel like as therapists, we look at our worth, like self-worth, like that it's basically tied to our productivity. Like, if I'm not productive, it means I had a wasted day or something, like work wise, time wise. And you know what? No, no, no, I'm gonna choose rest.

Dani 1:05:47

Yeah.

Karolina 1:05:47

You know, I'm gonna choose self-care because that's my also self respect, right? Like rest is the fact that I'm respecting myself. So that's my little thing, you know. I was thinking about it today, and that's what I'm gonna do, you know, like no sessions. Yeah, something with my kiddos.

Dani 1:06:04

Do we need to credit anybody? Is this like an original?

Karolina 1:06:07

It is a quote that someone, yes, it is an original quote. We need to just Google.

Dani 1:06:10

From somebody. Thank you, whoever

Karolina 1:06:13

Whoever came up with this.

Dani 1:06:15

It's great.

Karolina 1:06:15

It's free. And I'm just saying, it's not mine. It's a quote unquote, but I love it. Whoever came up with that was brilliant, right?

Dani 1:06:22

Mm-hmm.

Emily 1:06:23

Mm-hmm.

Karolina 1:06:23

I love it. So that's my little radical love.

Dani 1:06:26

Okay. I think it's time for us to hop into a time machine and to go all the way back 10 years ago, before baby number one was born. Or maybe after. It could be after, postpartum, right? What is one thing that today you, 2025 Karolina, would say to pre-recovery you?

Karolina 1:06:48

Yeah. So I also would like to, you know, make it short, sweet, and to the point. So here it is. So, you know, I would tell her that she is not broken. What she's feeling is real. And she doesn't have to justify her pain or her anger, you know, no justifications at all. That she's allowed to grieve the experience she went through, even if others try to minimize it or pretend that it wasn't that bad, or she was dramatic, or maybe it's not what she thinks it was, and all of that, you know. I would tell her that healing isn't linear, that it doesn't have to be pretty, clean, polished, you know.

Dani 1:07:23

Yeah.

Karolina 1:07:23

I would remind her that her gaslighting and the dismissal she experienced weren't her fault, and that feeling invisible doesn't mean that she's actually invisible. That's how I felt many, many times. So no, she wasn't invisible. She only felt that way, you know? And her voice matters and her experience matters, and most importantly, she's not alone. She has a huge support, huge village that she's always gonna be grateful for. And you know, I would also tell her that this story doesn't end in fear, that it grows into something very, very powerful, and that one day she will have another baby, and that this experience will be so different and so much better, and that her fear was valid, but will also change into love and happiness, you know, because the past doesn't define her future, and this time she will be heard, prepared, and supported in the ways that she wasn't before. And you know, I would also tell her that she will run super fast, even though she's not a runner, but she will dance that salsa with her husband whenever she has a chance, and that she will jump and jump and jump with her kids on that trampoline, something that she thought she would never be able to do.

Dani 1:08:27

Oh.

Karolina 1:08:28

And perhaps the most importantly, I would tell her that her story will matter, and not just to her, but to other women, that she will share it openly, bravely with those who feel silenced and dismissed, so they know that they are not alone either. So she will become a voice for those who need to feel understood when no one else seems to believe them. I would tell her that she will simply rock. That is the scream of my baby.

Dani 1:08:58

Oh!

Karolina 1:08:58

That was perfect.

Dani 1:09:00

We are leaving that in.

Emily 1:09:02

Yes.

Dani 1:09:02

Boom.

Karolina 1:09:03

She will rock. That's what I would tell her that you know she will always remember, and that's how I feel today, and that's the message.

Emily 1:09:11

Yes.

Dani 1:09:16

I can- we can hear it. It's all good, it's totally okay.

Emily 1:09:20

Oh my goodness. Okay, how do you take your water?

Karolina 1:09:25

Oh, that's the good one, you know. So I'll tell you the water needs to be bubbly.

Dani 1:09:29

Oh.

Karolina 1:09:30

Super bubbly.

Dani 1:09:31

Strong opinions about that.

Karolina 1:09:32

In Poland, we have that one company that says super bubbly water, and it's so bubbly that it gets into your nose, and I love the bubbles.

Emily 1:09:40

And it like burns a little bit?

Dani 1:09:42

It makes your eyes water?

Karolina 1:09:43

And you know, it needs to be chilled but not too cold. I always tell, like, when someone like asks me how you like your water, I say chilled but not cold. You know, I don't want like a nervous system shock.

Dani 1:09:52

Like, don't put ice in there, settle down.

Karolina 1:09:55

No ice, no flavors, no extra, no drama, no sweetness. It's not a fruit salad, you know. We just want nice water. No, no, no. When I see all this fruit, I'm like, no, no, I want a salad on the side, you know. This is just my water, pure, clean perfection, you know.

Emily 1:10:14

You're like, I want this water to burn my nose, and I want the salad over here in a bowl.

Karolina 1:10:18

And no straw.

Dani 1:10:19

Keep that fruit out of my cup.

Karolina 1:10:20

That's spring of mint or whatever you put in it. No, no, no herbs, no herbs, pure and clean. And you know what? The last thing, it needs to be in a glass, tall, fancy glass, you know. It's self-care. Drinking that bubbly water is like this, you know, extra pleasurable self-care activity. So it's very fancy. It has to be fancy schmancy, you know. Like I like to feel-

Dani 1:10:40

Fancy schmancy.

Karolina 1:10:42

Fancy schmancy glass of super bubbly water, ice, you know, glass of water. Yes. So that's my water, you know, no drama water. I call it a no-drama water.

Dani 1:10:52

Okay.

Emily 1:10:53

That's cool.

Dani 1:10:54

Well, with that, I would just like to ask if anything has read- resonated, excuse me, with listeners, which I mean, there's a lot that probably has resonated with folks.

Emily 1:11:04

Yes.

How to Reach Karolina

Dani 1:11:04

If they'd like to get in touch with you, what's the best way? Like reaching out. We've put your website in the show notes. Are you on social media? Is that another great way? Tell us, how can people get a hold of you?

Karolina 1:11:16

My website's the best one, right? Mainlineprocounseling.com. That's the name of my practice. There is my phone number, my email. Folks can easily reach me via that. But I'm also on Instagram. You can find me at @womenwellnesstherapy. That's my Instagram name. My Polish Instagram also exists when I try to translate everything into Polish, but I'm not really attempting to even tell you how it's pronounced. But when folks, you know, like foreigners, Polish speaking, wants to find it, I did put that in my women wellness therapy website. I mean, I'm sorry, Instagram. The names. So yes, please go there. I'm also on PSI directory, so people can always reach me through that. And yeah, don't be strangers. I'm always happy to, you know, share my knowledge, experience, referrals, resources, whatever that is. So yeah.

Emily 1:12:00

Yes.

Dani 1:12:00

You're all over the place, you're worldwide.

Karolina 1:12:03

Yes, please get in touch whenever.

Dani 1:12:05

Great. Well, Emily, would you like to take us out?

Episode Closing

Emily 1:12:09

I would love to. Karolina, this has been a pleasure. As a fellow birth trauma survivor, it is so good to hear when stories can come full circle, and your story came full circle in like all the ways that it needed to. Um, as a fellow Pole, uh...

Dani 1:12:29

A couple generations removed.

Emily 1:12:32

Pretty removed, but it is an important part of my identity. Yes. It was just so lovely to talk to you about culture and trauma and even to talk about the terrible medical gaslighting and how you're helping people push back, find their voice, and say, no thanks. Not today. Thank you so much.

Karolina 1:12:56

Yes, I really appreciate it. And thank you for having me. It was a pleasure.

Dani 1:13:01

Thanks for tuning in to the I Am One podcast. Check out today's show notes where we'll drop links to all the important things that we mentioned in this episode. Please consider sharing about I Am One on social media and following and rating our show wherever it is that you listen to podcasts. It only takes a minute of your time, and well, that'll help with our collective mission of bringing resources and local support to folks worldwide. From everyone here at PSI, thanks again for listening.