LISA ZEITLIN - I AM ONE Who Holds Space for Healing

On today’s episode, we’re sitting down with one of the loveliest humans on this planet, Lisa Zeitlin. She’s a Perinatal Mental Health-Certified Licensed Clinical Social Worker, hailing from the City of Angels - Los Angeles, CA, and is currently PSI’s English-Language HelpLine and Intervention Manager. We’ll chat all about the importance of having different care options, creating spaces that feel safe for help-seekers, and imposter syndrome (which is a real thing - even among providers). It was a pleasure to hear how Lisa’s professional experience led her to all of the incredible work she’s doing to support folks now at PSI! So, without further ado, please sit back, relax, and enjoy this episode with our friend, Lisa.

Mentioned on today's episode:

• Podcast: Coach Bennett’s Podcast
• TV: Outlander; Outlander: Blood of my Blood; The Summer I Turned Pretty
• Book: Binding 13 & Keeping 13 by Chloe Walsh
• Contact Lisa: lisaz@postpartum.net

Interested in sharing your story?
Fill out our podcast interest form here!

Questions about the I AM ONE Podcast?
Email Dani Giddens - dani@postpartum.net

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Transcript

Introduction | Perinatal Mental Health & Lisa Zeitlin

Dani 0:00

Welcome to the I Am One Podcast. On today's episode, we're sitting down with one of the loveliest humans on this planet, Lisa Zeitlin. She's a perinatal mental health certified, licensed clinical social worker hailing from the City of Angels, Los Angeles, California, and is currently PSI's English Language HelpLine and Intervention Manager. We'll chat all about the importance of having different care options, creating spaces that feel safe for help seekers, and imposter syndrome, which is a real thing, even among providers. It was a pleasure to hear how Lisa's professional experience led her to all of the incredible work she's doing to support folks now at PSI. So without any further ado, please sit back, relax, and enjoy this episode with our friend, Lisa. Lisa, welcome to the podcast studio. We are absolutely thrilled to be sitting with the one and only Lisa Zeitlin! Let's hear it. I'm just kidding. This is not a game show. But we sometimes pretend to be one. Anyway.

Lisa 1:04

I love game shows, so I'm here for it.

Dani 1:06

Okay. Um, let's not even do a podcast episode then. Let's just do a game show today.

Lisa 1:11

Done.

Dani 1:12

Keeping our listeners on their toes. Just kidding. This is the highlight of our day today. The highlight of our week, the highlight of our month. No pressure. No. Uh, we just have to, you know, send some big love to you. Every summer we get together. Lisa works at PSI. We'll get into that.

Emily 1:30

Spoiler alert. God, I'm so sorry, you guys. This episode.

Dani 1:36

It's so wonderful seeing all of our lovely colleagues every summer at the PSI conference. And the first time I see Lisa every year, I'm like, I just blurt her name out. My arms open up. I'm like, it's time for a hug. So this is so lovely to get to sit in here and have my third cup of coffee today.

Emily 1:55

Oh, my God.

Dani 1:56

Yeah, I know. That's probably not a good choice. But anyway, it's lovely to have– oh, Powell's books!

Emily 2:03

Cool.

Dani 2:03

I just shouted out randomly a bookstore, um, for everybody listening, if you're not watching on YouTube, Lisa just gave a cheers with her coffee mug, Powell's books, yeah. Shout out. You want to sponsor us, Powell's? Just kidding. We heart you. If anybody needs a book, go to Powell's. Anyway, Lisa, thank you so much for being here today.

Lisa 2:23

No, no, no, no, no. Thank you for having me because, like we said before we were recording, this is for us to just hang, and chat, and just be in the same space together. Because, like you had said, physically at the PSI conference, I mean, I just gravitate toward y'all. Like I love spending time. I love laughing with y'all. I love-

Dani 2:44

Lots of laughing. Just– I just love, love, love, love. Time with you is kind of therapeutic, you know? Anyway. Uh, everybody else that's listening is, like, definitely a fourth wheel right now.

Emily 2:57

I feel like a third wheel right now. It's kind of weird, like... it's fine.

Lisa 3:04

I love both of y'all so, so much.

Emily 3:07

We love you too! I'm just so, so thankful to get to be here and just chat.

Dani 3:12

Well, Lisa, with that, could you give us a little bit of an introduction to who you are?

Lisa 3:18

So I first and foremost just want to say that unless I'm in therapy myself, I'm really not talking about myself.

Dani 3:25

Yes, this is weird, right? Is this really weird?

Lisa 3:27

I'm just gonna throw that out there, just kind of, like, pin that, make that known. So I will now talk about myself, which is odd.

Emily 3:35

You're doing great.

Dani 3:36

Yeah, I haven't even done an episode. You're braver than me.

Lisa 3:40

Thank you. Thank you. So I'm Lisa Zeitlin. My pronouns are she/her. I currently live on the West Coast. I'm living in Los Angeles, California. It's where I was born and raised. I am an Enneagram 2.

Dani 3:54

Oh my gosh, I think I am too. I don't know hardly anything about it.

Emily 3:57

I don't even know what that is. I'll Google it later.

Lisa 4:00

Okay, yeah. So Enneagram 2 is: I don't connect with any, like my astrological sign is Sagittarius, but I don't think it really, I don't know, it doesn't quite hit the mark for me.

Dani 4:13

Oh.

Lisa 4:13

So Enneagram 2, and then I am an INFJ.

Dani 4:17

Did we talk about this before? I think that's what I am.

Emily 4:20

You are. I am an ENFJ.

Lisa 4:22

Yeah. That's why this is magic.

Emily 4:24

So what you're saying is none of us are gonna read the directions when we assemble something from IKEA, but we're probably not gonna yell at each other or lose any of the parts.

Lisa 4:36

That is so absolutely accurate, and I've never felt more seen. Yes.

Dani 4:42

I mean, is this a weird time to ask IKEA if they'd like to sponsor the podcast? I'm joking.

Emily 4:46

They really should. Parents with little kids...

Dani 4:51

Need chairs.

Emily 4:52

And we're on a budget, so we need flat pack, okay? Like, hello?

Dani 4:57

It needs to fit in the van!

Lisa 4:58

We need chairs...

Emily 5:01

Because the kids broke the legs off the last one. It's fine.

Dani 5:07

We're off– can I say off the rails?

Lisa 5:10

Let me get us back, um...

Dani 5:11

Thanks, Lisa.

Lisa 5:12

Again, I am not good at talking about myself, but I have some prompts to bring me back because in conversation with y'all, we can, like, really go and explore so many different pockets of so many places. So professionally, I am a licensed clinical social worker in the state of California. I have my master's in social work, I have a master's in public health, and I have my PMHC through Postpartum Support International. And that's me professionally.

Emily 5:44

Who are you personally? Are you a Dodgers fan?

Dani 5:46

Oh.

Lisa 5:47

I am a very, very big Dodger fan. Shout out to Kike, shout out to the whole team.

Dani 5:54

Okay.

Lisa 5:54

Big fan. I actually live, you know, pretty close to Dodgers Stadium in this time in my life. So I'm, you know, hoping to get to a few games this year.

Dani 6:03

Also, like, just plug if any Dodger, like, wants to hang out, like, she lives close by. So, you know.

Lisa 6:09

Yeah.

Emily 6:09

Or, like, any Dodger's partner needs a little support emotionally.

Lisa 6:16

Call me. Helpline.

Emily 6:18

Exactly.

Lisa 6:19

Yeah. So personally, love Dodgers. I have a dog. Her name is Marlo. And um, she didn't have a middle name, but we've given her a middle name recently. Marlo's full name is Marlo Taylor Allison Swift Zeitlin.

Dani 6:37

That is so cool.

Lisa 6:38

I am also a large Swifty. So if Taylor is, you know, listening, if she has her earbuds in and hears this, hello. I'm so proud of you.

Emily 6:49

Midnights got me through my divorce. Thank you.

Lisa 6:52

Love Midnights. So good. Fantastic.

Dani 6:56

Cool.

Lisa 6:57

So that's me personally. That's my dog. That's my baseball team.

Emily 7:03

Did I hear you have a dog? Does that mean, are you a kid-free human? Should I be jealous of your whole life?

Lisa 7:12

Yes. Yes. I am a kid-free human.

Dani 7:17

Are you foreshadowing, Emily? I'm sure we'll end up talking about this here in a little bit.

Emily 7:22

Well, yeah. I mean, I'm about to ask her what role perinatal mental health has played in her life, personally and professionally. And I'm thinking we're gonna have a good story, so.

Lisa 7:33

Well, I don't know if it's a good story.

Dani 7:36

Spoiler alert, it is.

Lisa 7:38

It's the story that I get to live. So I'm very grateful for that. So yes, I am kid-free at the moment. I came into this work of perinatal mental health from the professional door. I was a social worker at a hospital for a few years in downtown Los Angeles, serving the Skid Row community primarily and working on the OB, NICU, PEDs, antipartum, postpartum floor.

Dani 8:09

Wow.

Lisa 8:09

It's interesting because that's where, I feel like I was professionally leading up to that, but that's where it, like, really smacked me in the face of like, oh, I really love this. But I had been serving and supporting perinatal people throughout my professional career in graduate school, as well. So I was, before the hospital, during the hospital, I had a few jobs just to get my licensing hours. Was supporting families and people who were survivors of domestic violence and sexual assault. And so there are a lot of parents that show up, just naturally in that space. So making that connection, kind of turning my head back and being like, oh, I've loved working with perinatal people and families for a long time. And um, while I was working at the hospital, I added another hospital per diem work as a social worker working perinatally in another community in LA. And then I'm like, you know what? I really need to find resources. Like, I want to make sure that when patients are discharging, they have a place or they they have a reputable resource that I can give. And I wanted to check that out. So PSI, Postpartum Support International, kept showing up. And I'm like, what is this? Why is that happening?

Dani 9:28

Like you Googled to find resources or you were getting ads?

Lisa 9:32

Yeah. Getting ads...

Dani 9:34

I don't know. Is that what the kids are saying these days? I don't know.

Emily 9:38

The ad comes into your feed and it's like, are you a therapist? Do you care deeply about people who are... matrescing? That's probably not a verb, but I'm–

Dani 9:48

Would you like to send resources to the most incredible nonprofit serving the perinatal population? Then have I got a link for you. That's a thought!

Lisa 9:57

I do want to say that my Instagram probably thinks that I am perinatal and for quite some time now.

Emily 10:06

So does mine.

Lisa 10:07

Yeah. Yeah.

Emily 10:08

That ship sailed like 13 years ago. Like, it's fine.

Lisa 10:13

So the ads, if you're talking about ads, I my Instagram like algorithm is spot on to a degree professionally.

Dani 10:22

So like, here are some cute dogs, and the Dodgers, and resources.

Lisa 10:27

And Taylor.

Emily 10:28

And Taylor!

Lisa 10:29

Yeah.

Dani 10:30

First, probably Taylor.

Emily 10:31

Right now.

Lisa 10:32

Right now, yeah.

Dani 10:33

Yeah. I mean, the news just hit a couple days ago, so.

Lisa 10:38

Yeah. Yeah. So that's the algorithm, Taylor, dogs, baseball, PSI, perinatal, yeah.

Dani 10:46

Okay.

Lisa 10:46

Yeah. So back in the day I Googled and I think I wanna say this is true, but I'm really not sure if our resource list had Postpartum Support International. I think it already might have had it. One of my hospitals did, but I just wanted to make sure that it was good.

Dani 11:05

Yeah.

Discovering Postpartum Support International (PSI)

Lisa 11:06

So I started giving out PSI, recognizing just how much of a powerhouse in the perinatal world that PSI was and still is. And I was very curious because I love serving this population. So I actually started volunteering on the English helpline. And that's how I made my way into the PSI world, is through volunteering.

Emily 11:32

I have a question. Oo, oo, oo!

Dani 11:34

Uh, Emily.

Emily 11:36

All right. So I'm gonna go on a limb and say, because you said you have your PMHC that you've, like, gone to a PSI training at some point. Um, that's not really a limb.

Lisa 11:46

Yes.

Emily 11:46

You have to do that in order to get the training, guys. What was the order though? Like, did you, you were like, oh, I found PSI. I'm interested in helping, helpline and then training, or was it like I've gone to a training and now I really want to get involved and volunteer on the helpline?

Lisa 12:04

It was helpline first.

Emily 12:06

Oh yeah.

Dani 12:07

Very cool.

Lisa 12:08

And then it was like, what training could I not take? I've taken components of care. I mean, this is now years ago, but I did the Maternal Mental Health Now.

Dani 12:19

Oh.

Emily 12:19

Oh yeah.

Dani 12:20

Is that like the webinar series, kind of?

Lisa 12:23

Mm-hmm. I did and still do a lot of trainings because the information, the language, the research is always updating, and our PSI training department does such an incredible job of keeping up on that.

Emily 12:39

We're trendy.

Lisa 12:40

Yeah, trendy, very much so. So I like to go back and not only refresh, but also, you know, there's so much more that, you know, we're learning every day. So I started as a helpline volunteer on the English helpline.

Emily 12:53

So you worked with people, then you Googled us, and then you were like, I would like to help. And then you were like, I'm gonna learn everything. And so you took, like, all the trainings on the planet.

Lisa 13:08

Yes.

Emily 13:09

Okay. Then what happened?

Lisa 13:11

This is where it gets really magical for me because I was, and I remember, I have not a great memory, but I remember this and remember a lot of PSI things very vividly just because it feels very invisible string, if I might say.

Dani 13:28

Oh.

Emily 13:28

I think our memories also work really well when we feel safe. And PSI is really good at making people feel safe.

Lisa 13:35

I love that.

Dani 13:36

Oh.

Lisa 13:36

Here comes the tears.

Dani 13:38

Oh!

Emily 13:38

Sorry!

Dani 13:40

Emily, not yet!

Emily 13:43

Oops.

Lisa 13:44

Okay, so again, this is where it's really weird talking about myself. So did all the trainings, and then I'm volunteering, and I'm just like, oh, I really like this. I really, really, really like this. I love working in this particular space of helpline.

Dani 14:01

Yeah.

Lisa 14:01

I love working bedside and at hospitals and also connecting with people in like a therapeutic space, where there's something very beautiful about helpline work. And so I'm volunteering on the helpline, the English helpline. And the previous manager had sent out an email just like, is anybody, you know, kind of knowledgeable in emergency or crisis response or something like that? Or is any, is anybody like a professional? That's what it was. So the previous manager reached out, sent an email to all of the volunteers on the helpline and was like, is anybody, you know, a professional? And so I responded back. And that was a pivotal, pivotal moment. That was kind of– that was it, where I was able to go into a contract position to be a perinatal crisis response person. So on the safety assessment side, whether it's the helpline or any of the programs, whether it's in groups, if someone is showing, or telling, or expressing anything of concern for their safety, or in a space where it's not really where PSI provides that peer support.

Supporting Crisis Calls & Intrusive Thoughts in the Perinatal Period

Dani 15:12

Like in an emergency situation.

Lisa 15:14

Yeah, yeah. Like we're not an emergency service. We never have been, but there's this additional step of acuity of assessment or just recognizing like-

Dani 15:26

This really actually seems like not a warmline situation, but more of possibly a hotline situation.

Lisa 15:32

More hotline, yeah. And also like someone just being comfortable in that space in a professional sense of recognizing certain questions to ask, how to ask it. The National Maternal Mental Health Hotline did not exist at that time. And so there was a pocket there where there was nothing there. At least on the PSI side of things, there was a gap that they really truly recognized that they wanted to fill, just– intrusive thoughts is, you know, very normal for human beings, but in the perinatal period, it, you know, really, you know, steps forward. So I'd been doing the work for a while. This is also while doing a full-time job, like, at another organization. So I was doing full-time work, and then contracting for PSI, and being like, I love this.

Emily 16:22

Right.

Lisa 16:22

I want more of this.

Dani 16:23

I want this!

Lisa 16:24

I like this.

Dani 16:25

Uh-huh.

Lisa 16:26

Love it, love it, love it. So I sent an email to executive director Wendy Davis and let her know, just like, I'm really loving this work.

Dani 16:36

Oh, Lisa.

Lisa 16:37

I mean, I had to tell somebody, like, it's amazing. So I sent her an email. I'm just like, I just want to let you know that I love this. And just, like, keep me in, like, the farthest part of your mind if, like, anything, you know, is ever happening in any way. Like, I love this. I just want to let you know that.

Dani 16:59

You know, people don't always send emails like that. Like, we often reach out to people if like, there's a problem, something's not going well. So, like, that's really great that you took the time to say, hey, FYI, I just want to let you know, I'm loving this.

Emily 17:12

It's brave.

Dani 17:13

Yeah.

Lisa 17:14

Well, thank you. I think that Wendy and everybody at PSI's staff makes it easy to send those emails.

Dani 17:23

You're not thinking, like, oh my gosh, I wonder how this is going to be received. Like, am I going to get fired? Am I, like, is this weird?

Emily 17:29

Right.

Lisa 17:30

I didn't think about that at all. No, no, no. I was like, I'm really, I'm really, really loving this. I'm finding a lot of purpose in this. I'm finding a lot of something in this. And I just want you to know that. And if there's, you know, just sharing that with you. And little did I know that the National Maternal Mental Health Hotline was just a whisper at that moment. But I'm glad I sent that email, because when it was no longer a whisper and it was actual, you know, a reality, something that PSI, Wendy, the perinatal community et al. had been wishing for forever to be in existence. PSI got the contract for the hotline. And yeah, so I was the clinical supervisor of the National Maternal Mental Health Hotline for just over two years.

Launching the National Maternal Mental Health Hotline

Dani 18:25

Incredible.

Lisa 18:26

Started that up.

Dani 18:27

Wild.

Lisa 18:28

I know.

Emily 18:30

Like, part of the startup. I was there at the ground floor. Yeah.

Lisa 18:34

It was not in existence. And then there it was. And, so grateful and fortunate. And I don't know how.

Emily 18:42

I mean, I have some ideas.

Dani 18:46

Yeah, I think we have some ideas. You are– okay, We're gonna have to toot Lisa's horn. She's very skilled at what she does, you know.

Emily 18:52

Toot-toot.

Dani 18:52

And you are a wonderful human. Of course, they would want you. Hello?

Lisa 18:57

That is very kind.

Emily 18:58

And true!

Lisa 18:59

And I am receiving that.

Dani 19:01

This is me receiving it.

Lisa 19:05

This is to the best of my ability.

Emily 19:07

You're doing great.

Lisa 19:08

Thank you.

Dani 19:11

Right, Marlo? Marlo's Lisa's dog.

Lisa 19:15

Yeah. I'm very, very honored to be in this role that I am in now. I am very honored and grateful that a chair was pulled out for me to be at the table and to support help seekers, let alone be at the table of the creation of such a pivotal, historic, life-saving service. Yeah, just incredible, absolutely incredible. So I am grateful every single day, and that has never left, and it's right in front of me every single day. So yeah, I was a contractor and then moved into the space of hotline work. And so helpline, hotline, and then...

Emily 19:58

And then?

Lisa 19:59

And, well, now I'm in a space of– it's really full circle. So I am managing the helpline that I volunteered for and where all of this really began.

Dani 20:11

Isn't that wild?

Lisa 20:12

I can't say how grateful I am and to be working with such a kind, wonderful team of volunteers, and staff, and colleagues that allow us to show up as our genuine selves in these spaces is really important to me in a workspace. And so it doesn't feel like I'm working. That feels weird to even say. I mean, it is my job, but-

Dani 20:40

Yeah.

Lisa 20:40

I'm really able to support others in supporting others and hopefully creating and mirroring a space that Carrie Banks creates and then...

Emily 20:50

Shout out to Carrie, call us.

Dani 20:52

Who's Carrie Banks? For anybody listening. Who that?

Lisa 20:55

So Carrie is my boss, very kind, kind person who is the director of all of our peer support services. And so she creates the space that allows us to be our genuine self and fiercely advocating for our perinatal families, as well, at the same time. And-

Dani 21:13

Shout out to Carrie Banks.

Lisa 21:15

Hi, Carrie.

Emily 21:16

Call us. You're next.

Lisa 21:20

See you soon, Carrie. So yeah, I just, I can't do this work without the space and the permission to show up genuinely. So our volunteers are showing up genuinely, and our help seekers are received by folks that feel as safe as they can. Nothing is 100% safe, but it's a space where you could show up as yourself. At least I can.

Dani 21:42

Amazing. Love the, like, the full circle experience from the professional side.

Emily 21:47

So showing up as your whole genuine human self in a space that is so often held mostly by people who have the lived experience of– like, we all have imposter syndrome when we think that, like, you know, why is someone asking me my opinion on this? Or like, am I enough of an authority to have an opinion? Like-

Imposter Syndrome in Perinatal Mental Health Providers

Dani 22:10

I have an idea about this. Should I offer it up?

Emily 22:13

Right.

Dani 22:14

I don't know.

Emily 22:14

What does that look like and feel like for you? Because we are your biggest fans. So clearly it doesn't bother us. Does it bother you?

Lisa 22:25

Well, I first want to just share and expand upon what I was just saying. So I have a colleague, Melissa Bentley, who has been on your podcast. This is a magic wand that she sent to a lot of PSI staff that are in our helpline coordinator family because we work so closely together with our programs. And so I don't know why I'm just gravitating towards this and holding my emotional support magical wand. So I have colleagues that, you know, are so kind, and intentional, and supportive, and really, really care.

Emily 23:03

Yes.

Lisa 23:04

I think whether it's this work or whether it's anybody else who's experiencing imposter syndrome, I feel like it's– I think it's a normal human experience. Just in general. I think, I remember graduating and I'm like, I'm a social worker now? Like, how is that?

Emily 23:24

How do I do it? Am I social working yet?

Dani 23:26

Am I doing it?

Lisa 23:28

What do I do with my hands? You know?

Dani 23:30

I know!

Lisa 23:31

I don't know. So I think imposter syndrome is prevalent regardless of the work that people are doing.

Dani 23:38

Yes.

Lisa 23:39

I just want to say that because I see that and feel that. And also I think being in a supportive space where you're– the word isn't allowed, like you're given the opportunity to be yourself has made this work and the imposter syndrome feel a little bit smaller.

Emily 23:56

Yeah.

Lisa 23:57

Like it's not entirely always gone.

Dani 24:01

Oh yeah.

Lisa 24:02

It shifts and moves and looks different every day. Like I woke up today, the imposter syndrome was very large and woke up right in my face.

Dani 24:11

Oh. Right! I wasn't sure if we were gonna talk about this while we were– because we kind of mentioned it before we hit record.

Lisa 24:19

Yeah, it was there. It was there.

Dani 24:21

I was also like, hey, P.S. I'm nervous every single time I hit record. Like, am I gonna mess this up? Is this the last episode of the podcast? Like, I'm not a therapist, but I do have lived experience. You are totally a provider. And one thing we talked about before Lisa said, yeah, let's record an episode. She said, um, but I don't have kids, so I don't know, like, I don't know if I have anything to talk about. Like, I don't know if I should do an episode. I could talk about the helpline, but I don't have, like, lived experiences. But we were like, yes, you do, because you support folks in the perinatal period all the time. All of our stories are different. I have supported folks in the perinatal period. I have been somebody who needed help in the perinatal period, but I have never provided this type of support, like with the education that you do, specializing, like, in supporting folks. We all have different lived experience, whether it's personal or professional, we all have stories to tell. Anyway, so you were a little bit nervous, weren't you, Lisa?

Lisa 25:25

I was, right? Like, woke up this morning, like the imposter syndrome felt heavy, smack in my face, and acknowledging that, not judging it, not blaming myself, just kind of noticing that it's there, and then moving about my day and being in a space where I feel like I'm just talking to really great people and friends and colleagues has, honestly, like I feel like it's this small at the moment. You know, it's still there, right? But it like moves and shifts, and, like, if I'm in different environments, or different spaces, or I walk outside, like, it just– it's there, it's a part, it's a part that's there. I think acknowledging it makes it feel less empowered.

Emily 26:11

Yes.

Lisa 26:12

Being here at PSI, being in this conversation with y'all, I feel like it's there. I can see it, it's a part that's there, but there are other parts, right? There's other parts that show up that can step forward in that moment and then, you know, step back.

Emily 26:27

Yes. And what I think is so cool is you in supervising– do we say supervising volunteers? I mean, really, you're just their biggest fan, right? Like, with the volunteers that you work with on the helpline, some of them come to you and will say, I'm sure, but I'm just a mom, or I'm just a dad. I'm not a therapist. Dani says it all the time when we're talking to folks. And we all have that like imposter syndrome voice that sometimes attempts to, like, diminish the fact that we have an opinion, or that we might kind of be a little bit of an expert and we should speak up, or that we do have a story to tell.

Dani 27:09

Yeah.

The “Village” Needed to Support Parents

Emily 27:09

Or that we can help people without a degree in a thing that says we can help people, right? Like you can be just a mom and an accountant, or just a dad and an accountant and be on the helpline as a volunteer.

Lisa 27:21

I think it's the collective, right? I think a lot of this work isn't done in isolation and isn't done alone. So it's the collective people that are showing up. It's the volunteer, and then it's the coordinator, and then it's the group facilitator for the online support group, it's the therapist, it's the physician, it's the doula, it's the lactation consultant, it's the family, it's the friend. It's not on one person and it never should be. This work and showing up for people within this time was a village, like a literal village. It was a community of people coming together, and it looks different now based off of, you know, industrial revolution and, you know, stuff like that, and moving to cities, and technology allowing us to move in different places of the world, right? So support looks different, and at the core, who are the helpers that are coming forward? Who are the trusted individuals when somebody needs something? And PSI is a collective village of people, and skills, and experiences that help seekers can tap into if they want to.

Emily 28:41

Yes.

Lisa 28:42

There are options resource-wise, and there's different people that are showing up for families. And I like to say, at least in my own story, that yes, the imposter syndrome is there, but my cardiologist doesn't have to have a heart attack for them to treat me for the heart attack.

Dani 29:02

Dang!

Emily 29:03

Yep.

Lisa 29:03

There might be some cardiologists that have had heart attacks.

Dani 29:07

Or maybe they had a family member who had a heart attack. Or maybe they're just like, I mean, they are an expert–

Emily 29:13

At heart attacks.

Dani 29:14

At a heart attacks. At not having a heart attack, but helping people who have that. How'd we get here? This is a great analogy, though.

Lisa 29:22

I don't know how we got here. I don't know.

Dani 29:26

This is great. No-

Emily 29:27

This is it.

Dani 29:27

You're hitting the nail on the head, Lisa.

Lisa 29:29

It's an option, right? Like you can have patients or clients reach out to the office and be like, hey, has my cardiologist ever had a heart attack before?

Dani 29:39

Like, inquiring minds need to know.

Lisa 29:43

Yeah. Like, in order to get the service, and– you can. You have that option.

Emily 29:50

The flip side of this coin, this is funny, but it's like there are lots of pregnant folks, or thinking about someday being pregnant folks, or people who possess a uterus and need to go to an OBGYN who would like to see someone else who possesses the equipment, right? Like, how many people say, I want my OBGYN to be a woman or my midwife I'd like my midwife to be a woman. And I will tell you I was that person and then the male midwife who delivered my two VBAC babies was, like, more qualified than all the women.

Dani 30:24

Dang.

Emily 30:24

He did a good job. Anyway.

Dani 30:26

Shout out.

Emily 30:26

David Paad.

Dani 30:27

Oh, shout out David, hey!

Emily 30:29

Yep.

Lisa 30:30

Yeah. It's an option, right? Like, when seeking support, whether it's peer support, whether it's for professional support for a therapist or even for a doctor, everybody has the right to choose a provider that feels right for them.

Emily 30:47

And they should.

Lisa 30:48

Absolutely. The thing is options, I love having options, and knowing myself, and, like, what I can choose from. What is the menu of options I have? One of the options is a provider that doesn't look like me, you know, doesn't hold the same beliefs. That might be helpful. There are providers and options that look like me that have the same, you know, values. That's an option a provider that has had the exact same experience that I do, that's an option, and there's the option of a provider that hasn't navigated their own perinatal journey for any host of reasons, that's an option too.

Dani 31:28

Yeah.

Lisa 31:29

But we need more mental health support, we need more people at the table, we need more village.

Emily 31:34

Yeah.

Dani 31:34

Boom!

Emily 31:35

Mic drop.

Lisa 31:36

Periodt. Why not? Why not?

Emily 31:40

Exactly.

Why Providers Without Children Still Belong in This Work

Dani 31:41

Thanks for being brave. I mean, it's like, uh, it's like this kind of worry that's kind of, sometimes, like, hidden. People don't want to, like, say the things out loud, but thanks for talking about imposter syndrome with us.

Lisa 31:56

I do want to say, too– that for any providers, therapists, lactation consultants, doulas, anybody who's in the support and caring role– that you are not alone if you are not in that time of your life. If you are choosing to remain kiddo free, if you are going through a journey of post -loss and the world doesn't see that you have, you know, a kiddo physically with you.

Dani 32:26

Yep.

Lisa 32:27

Anybody who's showing up in the space, there is a chair at the table, because you matter, your voice matters, and your kindness matters. I just want to say that, too, because I'm sure that there's at least one other provider out there in this perinatal space that is, you know, in the same chair that I'm in and please feel free to to join, because we need more helpers.

Dani 32:51

Yeah. We heart you, we need you. We all need each other, we need to hear from each other, and we need to support each other if we are feeling compelled, like, this is what we're supposed to be doing, then that's what you should be doing. You followed what felt right to you, Lisa, and you are providing such incredible support to folks and making such a huge difference for folks in the perinatal period, and, selfishly, you're such a lovely friend and we are lucky to work with you.

Emily 33:16

Okay.

Dani 33:16

Sorry!

Lightning Round

Emily 33:17

How about a lightning round, guys?

Dani 33:19

Okay. Lisa, are you ready for a lightning round?

Emily 33:23

What do you think?

Lisa 33:24

I think so, I'll try my best.

Dani 33:26

Okay! No pressure, because this doesn't really go fast, but, I mean, there's always a first time. Okay, um [gibberish] just kidding. I'm not gonna talk really fast. Lisa, obviously besides this podcast, what's your second favorite podcast? Because we're number one.

Lisa 33:43

Yeah second favorite is Coach Bennett's podcast.

Dani 33:47

What?

Lisa 33:47

It's literally called Coach Bennett's podcast. He is the Nike head coach. So he does guided runs on their Nike app.

Dani 33:59

Oh!

Emily 34:00

Oh.

Lisa 34:00

It's completely free, so...

Emily 34:03

Oh, God, you guys are gonna talk about running now.

Dani 34:06

Emily, stay with us! We haven't even gotten to this,

Lisa 34:12

Yeah.

Dani 34:12

you've done all kinds of runs this year.

Lisa 34:14

So, it feels like I've done a lot of runs. I did a lot of, like training runs.

Dani 34:21

I don't mean you are an ultra marathoner.

Lisa 34:24

No, I'm not.

Emily 34:26

I will run away from a bear or towards nachos and that's it! So anyone who's running more than that is a runner to me. Okay?

Lisa 34:34

So I just want to say, Emily, that per coach Bennett, a runner doesn't always have to be running, right? Like if you've run once you're a runner, and then, also, running is just taking flight.

Dani 34:49

Oh.

Lisa 34:49

So we're all runners.

Emily 34:51

Okay. I stand corrected.

Dani 34:53

Hate to break it to you, but you're a runner.

Lisa 34:56

Everybody's a runner, they're either just not running at the moment or they're running.

Emily 35:02

I prefer to identify as swimmer.

Lisa 35:04

Ooh, yeah that's right, you're a swimmer!

Emily 35:08

Yeah.

Dani 35:09

Okay, Emily's stolen the the lightning round.

Emily 35:12

What are you currently binge watching, reading, or listening to? What needs to be in my queue? I need a new, like, Netflix and chill kind of thing.

Dani 35:21

Or Audible, or, I mean, Libby. Whatever.

Lisa 35:25

So I am watching a few things. One is Outlander. I love Outlander.

Dani 35:32

Me too. I love it.

Lisa 35:33

So Netflix came out with the part one recently.

Dani 35:36

Oh yeah.

Lisa 35:37

But we couldn't wait so we got Stars just to watch the part two of Outlander.

Dani 35:45

Yeah!

Lisa 35:45

So, watching that, I also re-watched Outlander because I love time travel. Like, I'm a big time travel nerd.

Dani 35:54

Back to the Future?

Lisa 35:55

Love– I have a little Back to the Future, like, little figurine thing. I have a poster in my apartment. It's a whole thing, I love time travel.

Dani 36:03

Sorry, Emily, just move over a second- I didn't know that we shared this. I'm kidding, Emily likes time travel too.

Emily 36:11

I do.

Dani 36:11

She does.

Lisa 36:12

Love time travel.

Emily 36:13

I am broader in my time travel than Dani is. Like, I'm like, Doctor Who? Absolutely. Like, episodes of Star Trek where there's a time loop? Absolutely. I am deep-

Dani 36:26

Space.

Emily 36:27

Yeah, because I like sci-fi. And time travel and sci-fi can often, but not always go hand in hand. Sometimes it could be magic, I'm into that too, so.

Lisa 36:36

Yeah

Dani 36:36

There's love though, in Outlander.

Emily 36:38

What is this anti-love narrative you have about me? Like, I don't understand.

Dani 36:43

Anyway, okay.

Lisa 36:44

So Outlander.

Dani 36:46

Outlander, okay.

Emily 36:47

what else?

Lisa 36:47

Watching Blood of my Blood, which is the prequel to Outlander. That's new.

Emily 36:53

It's in my, like, you should watch this. I'm like, okay.

Lisa 36:56

Yeah, yeah. I'm dabbling with that. I've been watching The Summer I Turned Pretty.

Dani 37:01

Oh, is that a show, a TV show, or a movie?

Lisa 37:04

TV show, a lot of Taylor Swift songs are in there and it's based off of a book, so been watching that. It's also a way that I've been connecting with my nieces.

Dani 37:16

Oh!

Lisa 37:17

So a lot of my Taylor Swift love is, like, for my nieces, and connecting back, and, like, talking about the Easter eggs and then–

Dani 37:24

Oh yeah.

Lisa 37:25

Yeah, it's so good. And then the book that I'm just about done with that I don't want to let go of is another thing that I've been connecting back with my niece. It's a book series that she really loves and so wanted to read it too. So the series is by Chloe Walsh, it's very teen, like, young adult.

Emily 37:46

I'm listening.

Lisa 37:47

Which is also Summer I Turned Pretty, it's more on the teenish side.

Dani 37:52

Yeah.

Lisa 37:52

It's called, the first book is called Binding 13, the second one's called Keeping 13. I've been reading that to connect back with my nieces.

Emily 38:01

Cool.

Dani 38:02

You know what? This is a great recommendation because sometimes it's kind of cool, like, are your nieces in their teens or are they like–

Lisa 38:09

Yeah, my oldest is just, it's unbelievable, but oldest niece is a freshman in high school

Dani 38:15

Oh.

Emily 38:16

Are you okay?

Lisa 38:17

No I'm not okay. I am not okay. And then the second niece just started middle school.

Dani 38:24

Okay, cool. That is actually really cool, because I don't know that we've had any recommendations for, like, something that's enjoyable for adults, and then also, like, is kind of a cool way to connect with those tweenagers, teenagers and tweenagers, you know? That's cool, thanks.

Lisa 38:39

Just to say, for those books, like, there are some, like, really heavy. Like, usually what adults would kind of go through narrative. So just kind of pinning that, they're–

Emily 38:51

Like, they should come with a trigger warning is what you're saying.

Dani 38:55

It's just not super light.

Lisa 38:57

It's not light. The character's point of view in the first two books, they're going through a lot of– lot of heavy things, so.

Dani 39:05

Really cool though if you're reading that at the same time as somebody in your life that's like a teen or something and, like, you can have, like, your, like, little bonding, like, book clubby, like, oh my gosh what did you think about this thing that they're going through so it's like, kind of like a cool thing that you can– you know, any opportunity to chat with teens about important, like, big topics and it's not, like, putting a spotlight on them specifically, but you could be talking kind of broadly like...

Emily 39:32

About a fictional character.

Dani 39:33

Yeah, so that there's no personal attack. That's very cool.

Lisa 39:38

It's awesome. Like, it's been a great story, but then also being able to just find connections with, like, the people that you love in your world.

Dani 39:47

Amazing. What is one thing that you are going to do today to show yourself a little radical love?

Lisa 39:54

That's a tough question. I think this.

Dani 39:58

Aw, Lisa, thanks! This does feel radical because, just to let everybody know, this is the second episode we've recorded with Lisa today, so we got to hang out with Lisa longer than we normally do with podcast guests. So this is– we got a nice little chunk of time this afternoon.

Lisa 40:20

Not long enough though.

Dani 40:21

I know.

Emily 40:22

It'll never be long enough.

Dani 40:23

That's why all the rest of the episodes are with Lisa. Spoiler! Just kidding.

Emily 40:26

Well now the podcast just got weird.

Lisa 40:30

I'm the third co-host now.

Dani 40:33

Okay.

Emily 40:34

Cool!

Lisa 40:34

That'd be fun.

Emily 40:35

Do you think that you and I could get Dani to tell her story, if we co-hosted her episode?

Lisa 40:43

Yeah.

Emily 40:44

We'll talk more.

Dani 40:45

I'll tell anything to a therapist so I guess it's on.

Emily 40:48

Basically. Like I'm like, can I interview you, and she's like I don't trust you!

Dani 40:54

I did not say that.

Emily 40:56

No, you did not say that.

Dani 40:58

I just had imposter syndrome. Anyway.

Lisa 41:00

Feel that.

Dani 41:01

Emily, ask her about a time machine. She's into time travel.

Emily 41:05

Time travel! Okay, first of all, what does the machine look like and second of all if you could go back in time– I want to go to the period of time where you weren't sure, like that imposter was real loud. What would you tell yourself? Like what did you need to know to be like shh.

Dani 41:24

This wasn't on the list and we threw it in a lightning round.

Lisa 41:28

No, no, no. So I naturally think of the machine as a car.

Dani 41:33

Oh.

Emily 41:33

Because Back to the Future.

Lisa 41:34

Yeah. I'm going 88.

Dani 41:36

You don't need roads.

Lisa 41:37

Where you're going...

All 41:38

You don't need roads!

Lisa 41:41

So good, so good. I was in the car the other day and I think, there was no traffic which is shocking, and I think I reached 88 I'm like is something gonna happen?

Emily 41:57

This is a uniquely LA thing to think, because everywhere else we could get to 88.

Dani 42:04

Lisa's gonna stick the speed limit from now on. Don't worry.

Lisa 42:07

I always go speed limit. So I go 88, like, that one time and I'm just like what? What's gonna happen? Okay, so yeah, DeLorean, going 88, then it's 89 and you're somewhere else. If I'm going back to a time–

Dani 42:21

When the imposter was just so loud.

Lisa 42:24

I mean, that could have been this morning.

Emily 42:28

Okay.

Dani 42:28

How'd you help yourself get here?

Lisa 42:30

Knowing who I was going to be in the room with made it possible.

Dani 42:36

Oh.

Emily 42:37

That's so good.

Lisa 42:39

I think it's who you surround yourself with, as well. Having your own village while you're doing the work is really important. So whenever something comes up, whether it's imposter syndrome, whether it's you're feeling activated, or whether you need somebody to lean on, it's having a plan at least for me of, like, who do I go to for what, if I'm feeling A, B, or C. And again, having options. So I think options is really empowering for me. I don't know if that answers your question.

Emily 43:12

It does, it does. Because this question is often, what would you say to pre-recovery you? And if we apply, which I really think we should because your wisdom is, like, spot on, this that you've just said. It's like, you don't know who you haven't met yet. Like, you don't know who's about to be in your village. So come this way. Call, text, fill out that form on PSI's website. You don't know who you haven't met yet. It really is the coolest club that none of us wanted to join. None of us knew that we would end up here doing this. It's the best.

Dani 43:49

I think Emily gets to ask her other favorite question and then I'll ask about some deets.

Emily 43:55

Okay. How do you take your water?

Dani 43:57

Yeah, we need to make sure you're staying hydrated, Lisa. Bubbles, no bubbles, flavor, ice, room temperature?

Lisa 44:03

Depends.

Emily 44:04

Yes!

Lisa 44:05

Depends, it depends.

Emily 44:06

She likes options!

Lisa 44:08

I'm into options. So this is room temperature water in a large container, that's one of the options. If it's hot out I take it with ice.

Emily 44:19

Ice, ice, baby, yeah.

Dani 44:21

Ever any bubbles? This is controversial.

Lisa 44:24

No, I don't do bubbles. I don't do bubbles.

Dani 44:27

Okay.

Emily 44:28

Why not? Do they make your nose tickle, do they make you burp-y, what's happening?

Lisa 44:33

I don't know, I never think about it. I feel like bubbles is really fancy.

Dani 44:37

Oh.

Lisa 44:37

I don't know. I've always associated, like, bubbly water with, like, fancy and I'm just like not fancy.

Emily 44:43

I think you're very fancy, this is so funny to me.

Dani 44:46

You know what's really funny is I was like, oh my gosh, Lisa's looking all cute. Look at this, I'm wearing this long sleeve shirt from the college I went to.

Emily 44:53

Right? My hair– yeah, mm-hmm.

Lisa 44:56

I'm not fancy one bit friends.

Dani 44:58

Speaking of imposter syndrome: all of us. This is just–

Emily 45:01

Right.

Lisa 45:02

But if I'm running,

Dani 45:04

Oh.

Lisa 45:05

if I'm running, my good friend who got me into running–

Dani 45:09

Do you want to give a shout out?

Lisa 45:11

Her name is TJ.

Dani 45:12

Hey TJ!

Lisa 45:13

She is the person that you want in your village for any and all things. She's an incredible friend. I have a lot of incredible friends, she's the one that got me into running, which is why I'm talking about her.

Dani 45:23

Okay. Lisa's like, oh no, now I need to name all of them.

Lisa 45:26

Shout out!

Emily 45:28

Okay, this is not the Oscars.

Lisa 45:31

We're gonna cue the- that's exactly what I was thinking, we're gonna cue the music, just names are gonna like roll up on the screen, all of Lisa's very best friends.

Emily 45:40

You get to talk about your one running friend, that's it. Go.

Lisa 45:43

Yes, yes, yes. So TJ, who I also played softball with up in Portland, we play softball together on our team, shout out to Slims.

Dani 45:53

Oh!

Lisa 45:54

So TJ, during my half marathon training, which I will never do again. It's my first and my last half marathon.

Dani 46:06

Like, that is quite enough.

Lisa 46:09

She recommended some type of, like, salt, like flavored salt to go in the water because you're sweating so much.

Emily 46:17

Like electrolyte replenishment kind of thing.

Lisa 46:19

Yeah, yeah. So if I am running, I will gear towards that. So that's how I take the water, yeah.

Dani 46:26

Okay. Well, you heard it here first: how do you take your water? It depends.

Emily 46:30

It depends.

Dani 46:31

And that's okay.

Emily 46:32

And Lisa thinks she's not fancy, I mean that's really breaking news. Like–

Lisa 46:36

Do I give off fancy?

Emily 46:41

Yes. In a approachable way. Like, not like fancy like, oh my gosh I couldn't talk to her, but like, oh my gosh she is so just, like...

Dani 46:52

Lisa looks very confused. I need to narrate.

Emily 46:56

I don't want to say put together, because I- she's like, what?

Dani 46:59

She is perplexed.

Lisa 47:03

I really am.

Emily 47:04

Like, put together authentically. I think put together can feel like you're just sort of trying to, like, make a look.

Dani 47:11

Not in a look everything's fine. Fine, fine, fine.

Emily 47:14

Like, I think that's why you feel fancy, because you feel like you're like, I'm gonna take some time, I'm gonna do a thing for myself that I need. That is what you exude and I think that's why you feel fancy to me.

Dani 47:28

What can we say?

Lisa 47:29

I think I need bubbled water.

Dani 47:31

I'm just saying: lime water is where it's at. With bubbles.

Lisa 47:34

Okay.

Dani 47:36

Hey, that's my beverage of choice at the PSI conference, you know. See me walking around with sparkling water with a lime wedge. That's what's up

Lisa 47:43

Love it. I'll try that too, I don't think I've had that.

Dani 47:45

Okay. Anyway! Well, this was a very quick lightning round.

Emily 47:49

Per usual!

Dani 47:50

Lisa, we've covered so much in today's episode. If anything at all resonated with folks listening and they would like to get a hold of you, would you like to give a way for folks to get a hold of you, like your social security number, like do you want to give me your credit card info? Maybe your email address, I don't know, you feel comfortable with any of that or?

Emily 48:11

Okay.

Lisa 48:12

Absolutely-

Dani 48:14

Did you fall off your chair, Emily?

Emily 48:18

Okay.

Dani 48:19

Emily's chair is broken.

Emily 48:22

You have to understand, this chair is a great chair, except for the fact that at some wildly unpredictable interval, it falls backwards, and I believe that I am going to fall all the way over, and my legs are gonna be, like, straight up, right? Like, I'm gonna be like woop!

Dani 48:41

So you just lean back in the chair a little bit, and then your chair did that thing where it kind of broke, and Lisa's eyeballs got big. Her dog's on her lap now, very concerned, Marlo is not sure. She's like, my mom's not okay. She can see Lisa looks very concerned. Anyway, Emily's fine, if anybody is listening very concerned. Marlo is all right, Lisa's fine, I'm fine.

Emily 49:04

We were worried.

Lisa 49:05

Everybody haul, everybody good? Also, Dani, your laugh, when you reach that one, when you reach the point of, like, it's so funny. It's so funny. Yes if folks want to reach me, so my PSI email is Lisa L-I-S-A-Z at postpartum.net. [Marlo barks]

Dani 49:30

Marlo, we're not asking about your email address. If you'd like to talk to Marlo, Marlo's email address is Marlo at postpartum.net– just kidding, don't email, the dog doesn't have an email address.

Emily 49:41

That's not a real email address it's not going anywhere.

Episode Closing

Dani 49:44

Lisa Z at postpartum.net we will put that in the show notes along with links to all the other amazing things that we talked about today. Emily, can you take us out?

Emily 49:55

I would love to. Okay. Lisa, aside from being the fanciest person that we know, you are the only person, other than Wendy, who I would describe as having a voice that feels like sunshine.

Dani 50:11

Oh.

Emily 50:12

Uh-oh, I'm having a feeling, okay! Emily I didn't know you were gonna say that, oh. You are so caring and so wonderful and so kind that talking to you really does feel warm and that is why you do what you do. And you are such a gift to all of us thanks for sharing your story.

Lisa 50:29

Thank you for allowing us to be here today.