SARAH KOTRANZA: PPD, Legal Justice & Fighting for Change

On today's episode, we're sitting down with the incredible Sarah Kotranza — who is currently serving on PSI's Board of Directors, where she focuses on Legal Justice and Policy and Advocacy. Driven by her own lived experience, Sarah has been a passionate voice at the intersection of perinatal mental health and policy since 2013. We’ll chat about her journey through postpartum depression after the birth of her son, how community and treatment helped her not just survive but actually enjoy motherhood, and why she's so committed to making sure legal professionals understand perinatal mental health disorders. She also shares her thoughts on self-love, music as meditation, and letting yourself not have everything figured out. So, without further ado, please sit back, relax, and enjoy this episode with our friend, Sarah.

Mentioned on today's episode:

• Maternal Mental Health Leadership Alliance
• The Blue Dot Project
• Mind the Gap
• PSI Chapters
• Podcast: The Emily Show
• Watching: Tournament of Champions
• Connect with Sarah: skotranza@postpartum.net

Interested in sharing your story?
Fill out our podcast interest form here!

Questions about the I AM ONE Podcast?
Email Dani Giddens - dani@postpartum.net

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Transcript

Meet Sarah And Her Story

Dani 0:00

Welcome to the I Am One podcast. On today's episode, we're sitting down with the incredible Sarah Kotranza, currently serving on PSI's board of directors, where she focuses on legal justice and policy and advocacy. Driven by her own lived experience, Sarah has been a passionate voice at the intersection of perinatal mental health and policy since 2013. We'll chat about her journey through postpartum depression after the birth of her son, how community and treatment helped her not just survive but actually enjoy motherhood, and why she's so committed to making sure legal professionals understand perinatal mental health disorders. As a bonus, we also chat about her thoughts on self-love, music as meditation, and letting yourself not have everything figured out. So without any further ado, please sit back, relax, and enjoy this episode with our friend Sarah. Sarah, welcome to the podcast studio. How exciting is this? We're real excited. We're not ready though for you yet. Hang on, just a second. Despite spending time with you for a quick early morning walk or a 6 a.m. yoga session during the PSI conference, neither Emily or I have ever sat down with you and asked you all kinds of personal questions about your lived experience with perinatal mental health complications. Dot dot dot. See what I'm doing here? Foreshadowing. Listen, I'm a podcaster, okay? I'm building suspense. So it goes without saying that we are thrilled to be here with you today because A, you're like super great to hang out with and stuff. And B, we're very curious to hear about what led you to where you are today and how you're involved with PSI and all that good stuff. So with that, I will pass the mic over and say thanks, Sarah, for being here.

Sarah 1:54

Thanks, y'all.

Dani 1:55

Yeah.

Sarah 1:55

I'm excited too.

Emily 1:57

Excellent. Well, shall we begin?

Sarah 2:02

Sure.

Emily 2:02

Would you like to introduce yourself? Name, pronouns, do you have kids? Where do you live? What is your social security number? What is your favorite pizza topping? Whatever the people need to know. Tell us.

Sarah 2:16

All right, I'm Sarah Kotranza. I live in Ashville, North Carolina. And it's beautiful right now, although it was frozen the past two days. Now we're back to fall, so it's wonderful. Have a little bear running around our neighborhood right now.

Emily 2:29

That's an actual bear, right?

Sarah 2:31

Yes, actual baby bear.

Dani 2:34

Like a black bear?

Sarah 2:35

Yeah. We think it lost its mama, which is kind of sad. But all my neighbors and I kind of want a mama it, but you know, it's gotta be a wild bear and not... so anyway. So that's what we're doing now as a neighborhood.

Dani 2:49

Oh.

Sarah 2:50

Keeping track of this baby.

Emily 2:51

That's so fun.

Sarah 2:52

Uh favorite pizza topping.

Dani 2:54

Oh.

Sarah 2:55

Random. Black olive and pineapple.

Dani 2:57

Oh, snap. Black olive and pineapple.

Emily 3:00

I'm team pineapple.

Dani 3:02

Interesting. It's like salty and sweet.

Sarah 3:04

Exactly. I'm a vegetarian, so I can't do ham and pineapple.

Dani 3:07

Right.

Sarah 3:08

So I substitute the black olives.

Dani 3:10

That's great to know. I think we've probably asked Sarah all the most important questions. Emily, you want to take us out? I'm just kidding.

Emily 3:16

Yeah. Thanks for a great- no.

Sarah 3:18

Oh, and I forgot to say I have kids. So I have one child. My son. His name is Andrew, and he is 12, almost 13 years old now.

Dani 3:27

Oh, almost a teenager in the house.

Sarah 3:29

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Taller than me now, too. It's really quite an interesting experience. Yes.

Emily 3:35

That's offensive.

Dani 3:36

Isn't it strange when you're like...

Emily 3:38

Parenting like this?

Sarah 3:39

Yes.

Emily 3:40

You're like, you listen to me.

Sarah 3:42

Right? No, I've always talked about as I've been parenting my child that I'm parenting him to understand that I'm the parent. So that way when he's taller than me, he'll still understand. And he does. So we're okay.

Emily 3:53

Nailed it.

Dani 3:54

Great.

Sarah 3:54

Right?

Dani 3:55

Yeah. Good job, Sarah.

Stress Piles Up After Birth

Sarah 3:59

But yes.

Dani 4:00

Well, Sarah, could you tell us a little bit about what role perinatal mental health complications have played in your life personally, professionally, however you want to kind of dive right in. Let's do it. The water's warm.

Sarah 4:15

So I got involved with perinatal mental health advocacy, let's say, because I personally experienced a perinatal mental health issue when I had my son. I had my son when I was 28, and I thought I had my life together.

Dani 4:31

Oh yeah.

Sarah 4:32

Yeah, right.

Dani 4:32

At 28? Mm-hmm.

Emily 4:34

Yeah.

Sarah 4:34

Yeah. My husband and I were engineers. We're like, we got this, you know, we can do all the things. So my son was born back in December of 2012.

Dani 4:44

December baby.

Sarah 4:45

Yeah. And interestingly enough, so I thought I had my stuff together. I had heard about postpartum depression, but I was like, I was 28. So it couldn't happen to me. Um...

Dani 4:57

You had it all figured out.

Sarah 4:59

Right. Of course.

Emily 5:00

Yeah.

Sarah 5:01

Doesn't everybody? No, not at all. But that's okay. Interestingly enough, he was born the day after we get a call from our like rental place saying, hey, we're selling your house in six months. So yeah, you're probably gonna have to move. And I was like, okay, all right, we'll deal with that. Then, like about two weeks after he was born, I had 12 weeks off of work, thankfully.

Dani 5:24

Yeah.

Sarah 5:25

And we're like, okay, we gotta buy a house now. Let's figure that one out. So we house hunted while I wasn't working, bought a house, and we moved when my son was about three or four months old. So have a baby, buy a house, move, and then my job at the time was depending on whether it was morning or afternoon, was an hour to an hour and a half away from our house.

Emily 5:50

Oh my God, that's terrible.

Dani 5:54

Not working from home?

Sarah 5:55

Not even close, because we're talking 2012, right?

Emily 5:59

What's that, right? Yeah, yeah.

Sarah 6:01

Exactly. And I worked on an engineering floor, like manufacturing circuit boards. So there is no working from home if you have to physically be with the circuit boards.

Dani 6:12

That's a good point, Sarah.

Sarah 6:14

Yeah.

Dani 6:14

Mm-hmm. That makes sense.

Sarah 6:16

Right. So I thought before baby, I'm like, I can do this if I can do this pregnant, like driving back and forth, vomiting in rest stop bathrooms because pregnant, fun, right?

Emily 6:29

Oh no.

Sarah 6:30

I can do this postpartum. Easy. Yeah. No, the answer is no. Can't do that because you're not sleeping.

Emily 6:37

Because you're like, now I'm not getting enough sleep. Commutes are awful, they're not very engaging, right? So you're just like, okay, how do I like stay present to keep myself safe?

Dani 6:47

And awake.

Sarah 6:48

And awake, yeah. And because, you know, type A, me, not drink caffeine because you're nursing the baby and the baby doesn't need caffeine.

Emily 6:59

Right. But you do desperately, perhaps. No judgment.

Sarah 7:03

Yeah. Yeah. But the baby doesn't, right? So no caffeine.

Dani 7:08

You were so worried about him getting caffeine through breast milk that you were just like, nope, zero caffeine.

Sarah 7:16

Yes. So then started job hunting and got a new job. So baby's like five months old, right? We've had a baby, turned our life upside down.

Emily 7:24

Did you move far away?

Sarah 7:26

No.

Emily 7:27

Okay, so there's one at least. Like you didn't have to learn a new grocery store for the love of God.

Sarah 7:32

No, it was actually the same grocery store. Thank goodness.

Emily 7:35

Like, that's a big deal when you're like, where's the cheese?

Sarah 7:38

Well, that's true too. Yeah.

Dani 7:41

If I don't know where the cheese is, then...

Emily 7:43

That's it.

Sarah 7:44

But the day we moved was the day after he got his like three-month vaccine shots.

Dani 7:49

Oh no.

Emily 7:49

Oh no.

Dani 7:51

Oh no.

Emily 7:52

That's like the worst parenting day of that first whole like fourth trimester. You're like, I'm gonna be fine. I'm sleep deprived, like, this isn't great. And then suddenly they give this baby shots and they are fussy. And you're like, I am unqualified for this.

Dani 8:08

Whose idea was this?

Sarah 8:10

Yeah, nobody slept the night before. I'm sitting on like an exercise ball bouncing my baby and directing people where to take my stuff. Like we had my brother help. Luckily, he lived there and with some friends, and I'm just like directing these college students like where to take my things.

Dani 8:26

Mm-hmm.

Emily 8:27

Oh my god.

Dani 8:27

Like two hands, don't drop it.

Sarah 8:30

Right.

Dani 8:30

It goes in there. Third door on the left.

Emily 8:32

Third door on the left.

Sarah 8:34

So we moved. I changed jobs. And so every time we accomplished something, like I wasn't doing very well, but I'm like, it's okay. Once we get this off our plate, you know, things will be better.

Dani 8:46

Yes.

Realizing It Is Postpartum Depression

Sarah 8:47

We'll move, we'll get settled, things will be better. I'll get a new job, I'll get settled, things will be better. Things weren't better. Um so like I'd go to work, I'd make a mistake, not even make a mistake. I'd do something, and then someone would be like, hey, can you change this one thing? And I'm like, Oh yeah. But in my mind, mistake, like world ending, the end of everything.

Emily 9:10

You're like, I'm terrible at being an employee. Like...

Sarah 9:14

I'm a horrible person because I made a mistake, right? And so I remembered at that time. So my hospital for the first 12 weeks post-partum had this amazing mom-baby group where you could go once a week, you had lunch, and you could all talk about like what was going on with baby or mom. And in one of those groups, one of the moms had mentioned for her first baby, she had had postpartum depression. Yeah. So I remembered back to that and I thought, oh, okay, that's probably what's happening to me. So I emailed the woman that was in charge of that group. And I'm like, hey, I think I'm dealing with postpartum depression. And in my mind, mental health, I need a therapist. I'm like, do you know any therapists that can help me? And she was like, maybe you should talk to your OB. And I was like, oh, okay, sure. Sounds great.

Emily 10:01

Right.

Sarah 10:01

So I called their office and they called me back, and I went in and they got me a therapist recommendation. Then I had like a two-week follow-up in case, like seeing how things were going. Two-week follow-up, things were worse. Things weren't getting better.

Dani 10:15

How was it worse?

Sarah 10:17

I was just miserable, basically. Like there wasn't joy, I wasn't enjoying parenting. I wasn't happy with myself. I knew I had to take care of this baby, but it felt more like a responsibility because I'm a very like, I decided to have this baby, therefore, this baby is my responsibility, and I have to take care of it.

Dani 10:36

Like only you, nobody else?

Sarah 10:38

Yeah, mostly. I mean, like my husband too, but also like I um been through a lot of therapy in these past 12 years. But um, I very much am like, oh, I chose that, therefore, my responsibility, and I better do a dang good job at it.

Emily 10:56

Right. Right.

Sarah 10:57

Yeah, the end.

Emily 10:58

Are you like an eldest daughter or something? Okay, cool.

Dani 11:03

Asking from two other eldest daughters.

Sarah 11:05

100% eldest daughter.

Emily 11:07

Like, I am gonna be awesome at this.

Sarah 11:10

Yes, I don't fail at things. So of course I'm gonna be great.

Dani 11:14

Insert white knuckles here, right?

Emily 11:16

Basically.

Therapy And Medication Change Everything

Sarah 11:18

Exactly. So I go back and the midwife suggests going on medication. And, you know, my husband and I discuss it because I'm still breastfeeding, and we decide it's a good idea. Go on medication. Two weeks later, I suddenly realized why people actually liked being parents because suddenly I didn't hate the world, I didn't hate myself, I didn't hate the situation. I was like, oh, things can be happy. Oh, this is why people like being parents, you know?

Dani 11:49

And so was that like about six or seven months or something around there?

Sarah 11:54

Nine.

Emily 11:54

Nine.

Sarah 11:55

Yeah. So it was a long process. And unfortunately, it took me a while to figure it out. But I figured it out.

Emily 12:02

Well, because you kept thinking you had figured it out. Like you thought once you moved, and then you were like, this job in the commute is stressful, which was probably also true. Like you were just solving the next problem that cropped up.

Sarah 12:17

Yeah.

Dani 12:18

Problem solver.

Sarah 12:19

And thinking, okay, if I solve this problem, it'll fix things.

Dani 12:23

Yeah.

Emily 12:23

Yes.

Sarah 12:23

And even like taking medication and getting the therapy, there were still problems, right? Because stressors come up. Life happens. And I was just discussing this. My therapist said something. He said, there's a difference between treatment and like fixing or solving a problem. Like you don't have to fix it and make it perfect, right? You can just learn how to kind of like go with it and be okay with everything not being okay all the time.

Dani 12:49

Oh, that is hard though. Okay, I'll just be okay with things.

Emily 12:53

What is the other thing people say? Like sit with the discomfort. Like instead of being like hard pass and like running in the other direction, we're like, okay, I don't like this, but I will survive it. And there may be an opportunity for growth or whatever. Like if I just stay here.

Sarah 13:13

Exactly. Yeah, I mean, and there's some places where you shouldn't sit, right? And there's times where you can also feel better, but there's still going to be discomfort in life. And so kind of trying to find that balance is a whole different because like I felt better about being a parent, but there's still times where it's hard and there's still miserable times. Like being up with a sick baby all night and not sleeping is not fun.

Emily 13:36

No.

Sarah 13:37

Nobody likes that. But you know, then there's days where baby's healthy and baby's happy, and partner, parent, other parent, or just mom is happy and everybody's doing okay. So it just depends.

Emily 13:49

And then they become teenagers.

Dani 13:53

Everything's gonna be fine, Sarah.

Sarah 13:55

Then they disappear into their room, and you're like, okay, how do I get them out of this room?

Emily 14:02

I think turning off the internet works.

Sarah 14:04

I've done that once or twice, yeah.

Dani 14:07

Mm-hmm.

Emily 14:07

I might need to, oh no.

Sarah 14:11

So yeah, so that's what led me realizing that one, how prevalent perinatal mental health issues are, and two, because naively I thought this can't happen to me, and realizing no, it can happen to anyone, whether you like it or not, or you prepare, it doesn't matter how much you prepare, it really doesn't. So that's how I got into this world.

Finding PSI And Choosing Advocacy

Emily 14:33

Very cool. So, how did PSI come into your life, as it were?

Sarah 14:38

So after I started getting treatment and started to feel better, I got very involved in peer advocacy because being an engineer doesn't necessarily lend itself to the mental health world. Got involved in advocacy and had a couple of road bumps there, and decided to work on getting a master's of public health because a lot of my friends were doing social work degrees, and that's not where I belong at all.

Emily 15:06

You're like, I want to think about the system.

Sarah 15:09

Yeah.

Dani 15:10

Don't ask me to people all day long. Is that what you're saying? I mean, so this is like a big- Sarah, thanks for being here with us, by the way, and peopling with us. I just want to say we really appreciate it.

Sarah 15:22

It's more don't ask me to talk about feelings.

Dani 15:24

Oh, sorry.

Sarah 15:25

No, it's fine. I mean, because everybody, like, right, everybody's different, obviously. But like some people are really good with feelings. And like, I'm learning. I have a lot of feelings. I just, you know, have also found ways, good or bad, to logic through them as opposed to feeling feelings.

Emily 15:45

Oh, yeah. I love a good, let's analyze why I feel this way instead of actually let myself feel this way.

Sarah 15:52

Yes, yes. I'm great at that.

Emily 15:54

Yes.

Sarah 15:55

Yeah, working on that. So yeah, so I looked at a master's of public health and I thought maybe I want to do women's issues and not just perinatal mental health. And then every paper, every research project I did was perinatal mental health. And I'm like, all right, that's where I belong.

Dani 16:12

I get it, universe. Okay.

Sarah 16:14

Yeah. So I contacted Wendy, Wendy Davis, because PSI was a lot smaller then, right? It wasn't what it is now.

Dani 16:24

There were a handful of employees.

Sarah 16:26

Exactly. So you contact the one in charge and be like, hey, you have a job?

Dani 16:31

Uh-huh.

Sarah 16:32

No, no job? Okay. Can I volunteer? How can I volunteer? But not talking about people's feelings, like something else.

Dani 16:41

Yes.

Sarah 16:42

And so then Wendy asked me if I might be interested in being on the board of directors for PSI. And I said, yeah, that sounds great. Well, actually, no. First I asked, what does that mean?

Dani 16:53

Tell me more.

Emily 16:54

Before I indicate interest. Yeah.

Sarah 16:57

Yeah. Like, what do I have to do? What do they do? And then I said, Yes. Yeah, sure. That sounds great. I will do that.

Emily 17:05

And there's like a whole process. Like, it's not like you say yes and then you're on it. Like you're like applying and interviewing, and like it's not like you could just volunteer for that, right?

Sarah 17:16

There's a nomination form, and then you fill out a little application, and then you do an interview with a couple board members, and then the board votes on whether or not you can join. And then also there needs to be a spot open, and there needs to be like the board looks for a variety of different, like just diversity in general, and then diversity of like careers or involvement.

Dani 17:41

Life experiences, skills.

Emily 17:43

Like they don't want 12 doctors on the board, they want like representation from providers and all the other things.

Sarah 17:52

Yeah. I mean a board of 12 therapists, too. That would be really interesting, but, and it'd be okay.

Emily 17:58

It would be. They'd be really good at that part.

Sarah 18:01

Right. So, yes, a variety of people. So it has to work out that it makes sense to have you there. So anyway. So then I joined the board. I've been on the board for almost three years now. And so that's kind of how I got involved with PSI. Although I've been involved in The Climb too.

Dani 18:19

Yeah.

Emily 18:20

Yes.

Sarah 18:21

I ran climbs back in the day before it was a PSI Climb.

Emily 18:26

That's how we met.

Sarah 18:28

That's how we met.

Emily 18:29

We met the same weekend that I met Samantha Konikoff. Like we all met in Atlanta.

Sarah 18:36

Yes.

Dani 18:37

Oh.

Emily 18:37

And I was like, these are my people.

Sarah 18:39

There were a lot of feelings there in Atlanta and in Boston. It was quite interesting.

Emily 18:44

I didn't go to Boston.

Sarah 18:45

Oh, okay. But it was great to meet a ton of people who were like super passionate about the same things I was.

Emily 18:51

Yes.

Sarah 18:52

I fundraised and ran a climb, and I still have friends from my local climbs that I've met, I met through that. And now I participate in my local climb.

Emily 19:03

You're like, I am now an attendee. Like I have graduated from host to attendee. I love it.

Dani 19:10

I'll be there.

Sarah 19:11

And for the board, I am involved in the policy and advocacy realm of it and legal justice.

Policy Work And The Maternal Mental Health Hotline

Emily 19:18

Can you tell us a little bit about that? Like what do we do?

Sarah 19:23

For policy and advocacy, there's a lot of different like areas where PSI is involved. For the policy aspect of it, Mind The Gap is the biggest. So it's a coalition of a bunch of different organizations. We meet once a month and have a speaker about whatever's happening policy-wise with perinatal mental health.

Emily 19:48

Is this like federal and state? Like, are you guys sort of covering all kinds of things or?

Sarah 19:53

Sort of. It's more federally focused than state focused, but there's the state's policy series.

Emily 20:00

That's true.

Sarah 20:01

Yes. So state level, there is some work that's done. I feel like the meetings tend to be more federally focused because, like, for example, March Of Dimes talks about what they're working on, and there's lots of different organizations. So we're just trying to kind of like make sure the legislation that is hopefully, like needs to be passed and the funding, for example, the Maternal Mental Health Hotline, the Mind The Gap helped advocate and get more people behind advocating for that funding and working with MMHLA on that.

Emily 20:35

Yeah. So that was like then organizing, going and talking to like legislators, like representatives and senators, and being like, please vote for this bill that's gonna fund the hotline.

Sarah 20:46

Yes, yeah. And that's what MMHLA does is work on that lobbying and advocating.

Emily 20:53

Yeah.

Dani 20:54

In case anybody doesn't know, what does MMHLA stand for?

Sarah 20:57

MMHLA stands for Maternal Mental Health Leadership Alliance. And it's run by Adrienne Griffen and Jamie Belsito, and they do a lot of work advocating on the hill.

Dani 21:10

Yeah.

Emily 21:11

Yes.

Sarah 21:11

For advocacy, PSI does a lot with The Climb. The Climb is a form of advocacy. The Blue Dot Project and Blue Dot Safe Spot is another way PSI is working to advocate for those dealing with perinatal mental health challenges.

Emily 21:28

Yeah.

Sarah 21:29

And then every chapter, PSI has a chapter in every state and in Washington, DC now. A lot of the chapters have an advocacy lead. So we work with the chapters as well. And they tend to be on top of their states' legislation and what's needed in their states. So PSI central can help support the chapters in their advocacy projects. So that's advocacy.

Emily 21:54

Very cool. So it's not all just laws, it's like raising awareness. It's putting people in the same place so that everyone knows what kind of supports are out there. Like it's all of those parts.

Sarah 22:08

So the Maternal Mental Health Hotline is a thing. But if no one knows about it, what's the point?

Emily 22:13

Right.

Sarah 22:14

So it's spreading awareness and helping people in their communities understand what's available and helping the states and federal level understand how perinatal mental health affects not only parents, but the children and the family structure, because that's how you're gonna get funding.

Emily 22:34

Right.

Sarah 22:34

Like to get funding, you have to show it has an economic effect and you can easily make that case.

Emily 22:40

Right. Because they have ways where they can calculate like people who are untreated, there's an increase of other risk factors, and each of those things that is an increased risk factor, like food insecurity or needing a 504 or an IEP in school. I mean, it could be like,= I'm just pulling from a list. Those things cost money. So if there are ways to provide preventative care, everyone should be interested in that.

Sarah 23:07

Exactly. And same with like missed work.

Emily 23:10

Right.

Sarah 23:11

Right?

Emily 23:11

Which also affects the economy. Like it's not just the workforce, it's then the economy. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Legal Justice And Court Education

Sarah 23:18

And the child needing maybe some extra treatment later or the parent needing treatment longer or whatever the case may be, you can make that economic argument as well.

Emily 23:29

Totally. I like this nerdy stuff. This part's my jam.

Dani 23:33

Can you tell us a little bit about the legal justice part?

Sarah 23:37

So the legal justice part came about because Mary and George Parnham started a- I know, I love them.

Dani 23:45

Awe.

Emily 23:45

They're cool.

Sarah 23:47

They started YCMF, which is the Yates Children's Memorial Fund based on George's defense of Andrea Yates, and he was able to get her a not guilty by reason of insanity for the tragedy that occurred when she unfortunately suffered from postpartum psychosis. So George and Mary have stayed friends with her. Mary visits her all the time. They have like a sleepover once a year. I don't know if a sleepover is the right word, but they do. She gets to go stay, and they make- um Andrea makes aprons that she sells to raise money for PSI.

Emily 24:27

Because she's incarcerated, but she's not like in a high security situation.

Sarah 24:33

She is in a mental health facility.

Emily 24:36

Ah, thank you.

Sarah 24:38

She is in a government mental health facility. She's not in a like prison or jail situation, but she is in kind of like low security mental health facility. But she's able to make aprons and she makes cards, and she's able to sell those to raise money for PSI. And so George and Mary wanted to do more because they were involved with Andrea and they saw what could happen and they thought, this isn't right. One, why is this happening and people aren't recognizing it? And two, these women shouldn't be legally punished for things that aren't in their control necessarily because it's psychosis. They're not of their sound mind.

Emily 25:22

It would be like blaming people for not being able to see far away if they're nearsighted. Like give them glasses.

Sarah 25:28

It'd be like blaming people for being sick.

Emily 25:31

Right.

Sarah 25:31

So they started the Yates Children's Memorial Fund, and then PSI kind of folded that into PSI. So currently, Elizabeth Lilly is running the legal justice part of PSI. And so what happens is sometimes people contact PSI who are having legal issues, whether it's criminal issues or civil issues. Civil issues, for example, child custody issues, or trying to use perinatal mental health against you in a divorce.

Emily 26:01

Yep.

Sarah 26:02

They contact us and we try to put them in contact with an attorney who could maybe help, or they get their attorney in contact with us and we are able to educate the attorney on perinatal mental health issues, which is helpful because they can bring that to court and kind of present that to the judge. And then also for criminal, we can put people in touch with expert witnesses. So there's a group of reproductive psychiatrists and psychologists that are willing to be expert witnesses in court. So we can put people in contact with those people regionally. And then finally, which isn't all they do, but the next big thing is training. So the goal is that PSI will create a training for attorneys and possibly judges.

Dani 26:51

Wow.

Emily 26:51

That is cool.

Sarah 26:53

Right. To help educate them on perinatal mental health issues. So one day, if they ever get a case that involves it, whether again it's civil or criminal, they can know kind of what was happening and have maybe a better way of defending it, or at least who to contact to get more information and to get a better defense for their client. And if we educate judges, then possibly the judges may have a bit more empathy for those people who come in front of them who have struggled with these issues and then can recognize it better.

Dani 27:29

Wow. We haven't talked about that on the pod yet.

Sarah 27:32

Well, now you have.

Dani 27:33

Thanks for deep diving with us. I'm sure we could- we will eventually have an episode where we can ask Elizabeth Lilly more details about legal justice.

Emily 27:44

I was just thinking that. I'm like, we need to call Elizabeth.

Sarah 27:47

Or Mary Parnham.

Dani 27:49

Yeah. All the podcast listeners are seeing behind the curtain where I'm making notes. I'm like, okay, great. Um, I will be reaching out to– yeah.

Sarah 27:58

Yeah. George retired, so she's not paralegaling anymore, so she has time.

Emily 28:04

So you're saying she's got time?

Sarah 28:05

Yeah.

Dani 28:06

So Sarah said Mary's available. Cool.

Emily 28:10

That's what I heard. Okay, well, we know what you're doing to support folks now in the perinatal period. At least some of the things. Are there other things that you're doing? Anything else you got up your sleeve?

Sarah 28:22

Most of what I do is through PSI, quite honestly. I mean, one day maybe I'll do more in the legal realm. Because I'm me, I've recently received my paralegal certificate. So I worked as- I worked as a paralegal for about a year and decided I wanted more time at home. So I'm currently a stay-at-home mom but volunteer with my local legal aid foundation.

Dani 28:47

Cool.

Sarah 28:47

I mean, once my son's older and so I have more time, I'm thinking about like possibly law school, and then I could...

Dani 28:56

Sarah, this is great. My gosh. We're hearing it here first. Awesome.

Sarah 29:02

And then I could, you know, help with the legal aid or the legal justice end of things, maybe with the presentation some more. But I don't know, we'll see. Who knows? It could change again. Cause I mean, went from engineer to public health to law. So, you know, I no longer know where it's gonna go next. I'm just along for the ride.

Dani 29:23

You're going with the flow. That's great.

Sarah 29:25

Yeah.

Emily 29:26

I think being along for the ride is a valuable skill.

Dani 29:29

Mm-hmm. It's hard for those of us who like to have a plan, but way to roll with it, Sarah.

Sarah 29:37

Eventually you figure out the the best laid plans are just- like they explode anyway, so.

Emily 29:44

Yeah, for real.

Sarah 29:45

Thanks, Hurricane Helene, basically.

Emily 29:48

Yeah.

Sarah 29:48

But yeah, that's hopefully the plan. Or one day.

Dani 29:51

Well, we're gonna have to follow up, see what happens. This is a to-be-continued podcast episode, I'm kidding.

Emily 29:57

I like it.

Sarah 29:59

Should be around PSI for a while, hopefully. So that's the goal.

Dani 30:04

Is there anything that we did not mention that you would like to chat about, Sarah, before we jump into a very slow lightning round?

Diagnosis Labels Versus Getting Help

Sarah 30:12

I don't think so. Oh, I remember. One thing I realized when I dealt with my perinatal mental health issues was that I had actually been dealing with mental health issues most of my life. I just had enough time and space to cope without needing extra help. And having a baby and being sleep deprived and having little time or space to yourself, if any at all for that matter, basically exploded all my coping mechanisms, which weren't necessarily healthy, but they were there, right?

Dani 30:50

They were working.

Sarah 30:51

It was functional.

Emily 30:54

And then...

Sarah 30:54

12 years later, I've been in therapy off and on since my son was born. And recently, one of my therapists said to me, he said to me, Sarah, I think maybe what you're dealing with is OCD. And I'm like, okay, yeah, sure. Let's not. Let's leave that, put that aside for now, because we were dealing with some other stuff. What I've figured out, and I was talking to him about this like the other day, is it doesn't necessarily matter what the diagnosis is, right? Like what I figured out is probably the OCD was what's been affecting me the entire time. Whether it manifested as depression or anxiety and looked like that, it was due to these coping mechanisms I had put in place to have myself feel safe and comfortable because of the way my brain works, right?

Emily 31:44

Yep.

Sarah 31:44

But it doesn't matter what we call it, right? Like I was talking to him, like, I don't know if I had postpartum depression, I don't know if I had postpartum anxiety, I don't know if I had postpartum OCD. It could have been any of those or all of those, or just one, or you know, but it doesn't matter because what matters is that you get treatment that hopefully helps you feel better. And then maybe you can work on figuring out different coping mechanisms, or maybe you can figure out the root of what's happening and eventually get to a more clear space mentally about what your brain is doing or not doing. But also it doesn't necessarily matter about figuring out exactly what the answer is. What matters is just figuring out a way to feel better and not be miserable.

Emily 32:31

Yes.

Sarah 32:31

At least for me, that was the important part.

Dani 32:34

And usually it's not one answer. For you, it was a combination of things, which is what usually yields the best outcome. You had a combination of, you know, getting on meds, you had therapy, you were attending a support group. Thank goodness that that was available at your hospital for the first 12 weeks postpartum. So you had that peer support aspect as well, which is pretty incredible having peer support and like seeing other people experiencing something similar at the same time as you, so.

Sarah 33:00

Yeah, or even afterwards, like Emily and I were talking about how we met in Atlanta. It was a huge group of people who had struggled with perinatal mental health issues. And seeing other people who had been through the same thing was amazing. And hearing about new treatments is also amazing because there's some even better ones out there now, but you know, it's challenging to access everything or anything. But doing the best you can and finding what works for you is really like what's most important, and not necessarily finding the exact right label.

Emily 33:34

Yes.

Sarah 33:35

Or trying to trade them out. Like I'm really good at negotiating. I'm like, if we're gonna have this new one, what about this old one? Can we- was that one that or is it this new thing? Can we trade? No, apparently you can't, but I can keep trying. And I will. That was the thing I wanted to add.

Lightning Round On Life And Self Love

Emily 33:51

Very good mic drop. Yeah. All right. Shall we lightning round?

Dani 33:56

Let's do it.

Emily 33:59

What's your second favorite podcast? Because obviously we are the first favorite.

Sarah 34:03

Of course. My second favorite, it's called the Emily Show.

Dani 34:08

Is it really?

Sarah 34:09

Yes.

Dani 34:10

Oh.

Sarah 34:11

Emily D. Baker. She's a former attorney. Well, actually, she still currently has her bar and law license, but she was a prosecutor in LA County for like 17 years. Anyway, I love her because she does a combination of law and pop culture. And she loves reality TV, as do I.

Dani 34:30

Interesting.

Sarah 34:31

Yes. So I listen to her podcast, and then when she's streaming live court, I mean like I fast forward through some things. I will watch six hours, eight hours of court a day. I catch up on the weekends when there's no court. So, yes, this is another reason why I think law might be a good...

Dani 34:49

It's what you want to do in your free time. It's what you're thinking about, like...

Sarah 34:54

Right. Exactly. So yes, the Emily Show with Emily D. Baker.

Emily 34:59

You should also check out Strict Scrutiny if you haven't.

Sarah 35:03

I have. It is good too.

Emily 35:05

Yeah. I'm like, if you like that, you might like this. These lawyers are funny.

Sarah 35:10

It's quite interesting. Yeah. I love it all. It's just what- I just like it. It's better than reality TV in some ways, because it's actually more reality than reality TV. And some of those moments are court are like absolutely unhinged, it's quite interesting. So anyway.

Dani 35:27

Do you prefer watching it live?

Sarah 35:28

I do. Like I sometimes wish I could go. I mean, like, I've thought about going to the courthouse to watch.

Emily 35:34

Just like with popcorn.

Sarah 35:36

Yeah, but I also follow like local cases that catch my attention, or I used to live in Gainesville, Florida. So there's some cases there I've followed too online, and I have my friends who I'll text. I'll be like, oh my gosh, this happened at this case. Did you hear? Did you see? They're like, oh my gosh, Sarah.

Emily 35:53

You're like, this is my special interest. Leave me alone.

Dani 35:57

Are we friends or not? Geez. Sarah, are you currently binge watching or listening to or reading anything amazing that we should put in our queue? Like our Netflix queue, our Audible queue, our Libby queue, our iTunes.

Sarah 36:13

Not really. A lot of it's based on like watching live court right now. There's not a live case that Emily's following.

Dani 36:20

Book recommendation, uh, live court.

Emily 36:24

Live court.

Sarah 36:26

The Donna Adelson case from Florida, the whole Adelson, Charlie Adelson, Donna Adelson. If you go look at that case, like that is a whole reality TV show in and of itself. Like it's sad, but it's quite interesting. Yeah, it's like reality TV, but real life. It's so interesting to watch. And the audacity of some of these people is quite interesting as well. Anyway, legal stuff, cult stuff. I'm so interested in like figuring out how all of this works sometimes or how people think this is okay.

Emily 36:55

I get that. I'm like, but why?

Sarah 36:58

Right. But don't talk to me about your feelings.

Dani 37:01

This is shocking that Sarah said yes to come on here. I'm like, how do you feel emotionally about that though? No.

Emily 37:11

Did you see her face? She was like, why would you ask...

Dani 37:15

For everybody listening, Sarah just looked like she was about to, you know, she was looking for a garbage can to, you know. Very uncomfortable. Follow-up question, Sarah. What's your best parenting hack? Like, we know that the same trick doesn't work all the time, but like, is anything cool like working really well right now?

Sarah 37:31

I don't think I have one necessarily. Like the challenge with a 12-year-old is I just try to show interest in some of the things he's interested in. Even though, like, maybe I don't want to hear about it, like Minecraft, but like that's where he's at. Or I try to find shared stuff. Like right now, as a family, we're watching Tournament of Champions, like the cooking show, and he likes it and we like it, so it's a nice like kind of time together. Or uh, we love playing Mario Kart.

Dani 38:02

Oh, are you good? Do you beat him?

Sarah 38:04

Yes.

Emily 38:04

Thank God.

Sarah 38:05

We're not nice to each other.

Emily 38:07

No, yeah.

Dani 38:08

I just want to make sure that you know, you're not letting anybody win.

Emily 38:11

I'm here to show you.

Sarah 38:13

Yes. No, we're very competitive. And so, like, just trying to keep that line of communication open right now, I feel like is the most important because I have like a teenager. It's not like with a two-year-old.

Emily 38:24

And you're like, yeah, I get it. Like...

Sarah 38:25

Yeah, yeah, yeah, right?

Emily 38:26

Yeah.

Sarah 38:26

It's a little different now.

Emily 38:31

Yes.

Dani 38:31

Okay, this next question is bordering on feelings related. Okay, Emily?

Emily 38:37

It's adjacent. It's gonna be fine. You're gonna be fine. What is one way that you are gonna show yourself some radical love today? Like, let's not call it self-care. It's bigger than that. What are you doing?

Sarah 38:49

I talked to my therapist about this on Tuesday because I'm like, they're gonna ask me this.

Dani 38:53

Oh, we made it to therapy. Oh, there we go. We retire. We made it into Sarah's therapy session.

Sarah 39:00

But one of the things I am doing today is today is my first piano lesson. I've been wanting to take piano lessons since forever. I actually sing like in a choir.

Dani 39:11

Uh-huh.

Sarah 39:11

And I've started doing that again, which has been a lot of fun. But I am starting to take piano lessons so I can kind of learn more about music. And I've always wanted to, so.

Dani 39:24

Wow, that's really incredible. I hope that it's okay for me to announce this, for the very first time on the I'm One Podcast that at the upcoming conference in LA, Sarah Kotranza is going to be on a baby grand piano. I'm kidding. At registration. Sarah will be there.

Emily 39:43

And that was the last podcast episode we ever had.

Sarah 39:47

There will be a board choir performance- no.

Emily 39:53

That'd be funny.

Dani 39:54

Sarah, that is so cool. We are never too old to learn something new. I learned how to ski at 30 after snowboarding my whole life. So yeah.

Sarah 40:04

Yeah, I've wanted to do it since I was a kid. There's no like time limit. Just because I'm 41 doesn't mean I can't start something new or see like if I actually like it or how it's gonna go. I mean, I started singing again and I wasn't sure how that would go, and I love it. It's the one time my brain can be quiet because I'm like, I can't think about other things when I'm trying to focus on what I'm singing and focus on the conductor and focus on like all the different parts of it. There's no extra space. It's almost like my meditation in a way.

Dani 40:39

You can't be like, what was the defendant thinking in that moment? I had no clue what the defendant was thinking.

Sarah 40:46

I knit a lot, as you all know, but I can do a lot of things while knitting, so.

Emily 40:53

Yeah, oh man. Mm-hmm.

Sarah 40:55

So, although knitting helps me focus, it's not my quiet time. I found music is my quiet time. So I enjoy that.

Dani 41:02

That's great. Emily, do you want to ask the next one?

Emily 41:05

Ooh, can I? Okay.

Dani 41:06

I know you love asking this question.

Emily 41:09

What is one thing that today you could jump into a time machine and go back and say to pre-recovery you and follow-up question, what time machine? Go.

Sarah 41:21

I still deal with like um perfectionism, right? Like needing to be a hundred percent better. But that's not a thing. And it's okay to be human, and it's okay to not get everything right. You don't have to. And people don't actually expect that of you. You just expect it of yourself.

Emily 41:41

Yep.

Sarah 41:42

That's why other people, when they make mistakes, they're fine with it. And then you're like, how did they do that? It's because they don't expect themselves to be perfect.

Emily 41:51

I am gonna ask a follow-up question. When you realize that you have like missed a stitch, do you go back and redo it?

Sarah 41:58

Depends.

Emily 41:59

Okay.

Sarah 41:59

It really depends. Like, I don't need my knitting to be perfect at all. There's a lot that have mistakes, and it depends on how easy or challenging it is to fix.

Emily 42:09

So in a situation like that, you can weigh it. Like, you're not like I have to fix it. You're like, is it worth...

Sarah 42:15

The effort and time. Yeah. Like last year's Helene shawl has a huge, like, one of the pieces is like completely different size than the other two, and I'm like, I don't care.

Dani 42:28

Oh!

Sarah 42:28

I'm not doing that again. So it's just gonna be a little wonky, and that'll be okay.

Emily 42:37

Yeah.

Dani 42:37

Okay, Sarah. We also like to make sure that everybody on the podcast is staying hydrated because we're moms and we want to check in on people. How do you take your water? Bubbles, no bubbles, ice, room temperature, flavor? Tell us.

Sarah 42:49

All the above.

Dani 42:50

Oh.

Sarah 42:51

It depends on the situation.

Emily 42:52

Yes.

How To Reach Sarah And Closing

Sarah 42:53

Like if bubbles are available, bubbles will happen. Typically, ice water, but also if I'm talking or singing, no ice room temperature, so then it doesn't like make my throat cold.

Dani 43:05

Also, so you don't like have to burp a lot.

Sarah 43:08

Well, there's that too, yes.

Dani 43:09

Oh my gosh. Awkward, choir concert.

Sarah 43:13

Right?

Emily 43:13

Podcast.

Sarah 43:15

Yeah. Right. So right now, room temperature, but it just depends on the time of day and what's available.

Dani 43:22

Way to keep yourself hydrated. I Am One podcast approved. Well done, Sarah. Okay, Sarah, if anybody would like to get a hold of you, can they get a hold of you? Would you prefer them to not get a hold of you?

Emily 43:34

Don't call me, we'll call you.

Dani 43:36

There is not a wrong answer here.

Sarah 43:39

I have a PSI email, so it's skotranza@postpartum.net. So people can feel free to get a hold of me there. That's a great way.

Dani 43:50

Great. We'll drop that in the show notes. So if anybody wants to get in touch with Sarah, shoot her an email.

Emily 43:55

Tell her we sent you.

Dani 43:56

Yeah. She may or may not respond. I don't know. I'm kidding. What I'm saying is, of course, you would respond to them.

Sarah 44:06

I would.

Dani 44:06

If we sent them, I don't know. Shady characters. Just kidding. Emily. Would you like to take us out?

Emily 44:15

I would love to.

Dani 44:16

Okay.

Emily 44:17

Oh my God. Okay. I love that we both came full circle on this because when the organization that we were volunteering with,

Dani 44:28

Long ago?

Emily 44:29

Long ago, stopped doing what it was doing. There was this moment for a lot of us where we were like, is there still a place for me? And we didn't know. None of us knew that there literally already was a space at PSI. And I love that we are both here together and that we both like went on that journey and have decided to like stick with it because there is more work to do.

Sarah 44:54

A hundred percent.

Emily 44:55

Thank you for being here and for doing all the things.

Dani 44:59

And for letting us ask about your feelings and stuff, Sarah.

Sarah 45:03

Oh no, this has been great.

Dani 45:07

Thanks for tuning in to the I Am One podcast. Check out today's show notes where we'll drop links to all the important things that we mentioned in this episode. Please consider sharing about I Am One on social media and following and rating our show wherever it is that you listen to podcasts. It only takes a minute of your time, and well, that'll help our collective mission of bringing resources and local support to folks worldwide. From everyone here at PSI, thanks again for listening.