I AM ONE Podcast by Postpartum Support International

What Is Matrescence?

• Episode 71

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On today's episode, we're talking about matrescence. And if that's a word you've never heard before, you are not alone and you are in exactly the right place. Matrescence is the process of becoming a mother. It's a developmental passage, biological, emotional, social, spiritual. It can begin before birth. And according to our guest, Chelsea Robinson, it may even last a lifetime. Think of it like adolescence, but for motherhood. Messy, disorienting, and probably nothing like what you expected. Chelsea is a licensed clinical social worker, and she brings both the clinical grounding and genuine passion for this topic. We dive into why so many mothers feel blindsided by the identity shift that comes with parenthood. I know that this rings true for a couple of podcast hosts. We also talk about why simply having a name for this experience can be quietly life-changing, and how to know what's normal versus when we might need some extra support. Whether you're in the thick of early motherhood or years in wondering why it still feels like a lot, this one's for you. So without any further ado, please sit back, relax, and enjoy this episode all about matrescence. 


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Dani:

Welcome to the I Am One podcast. On today's episode, we're talking about matrescence. And if that's a word you've never heard before, you are not alone and you are in exactly the right place. Matrescence is the process of becoming a mother. It's a developmental passage, biological, emotional, social, spiritual. It can begin before birth. And according to our guest, Chelsea Robinson, it may even last a lifetime. Think of it like adolescence, but for motherhood. Messy, disorienting, and probably nothing like what you expected. Chelsea is a licensed clinical social worker, and she brings both the clinical grounding and genuine passion for this topic. We dive into why so many mothers feel blindsided by the identity shift that comes with parenthood. I know that this rings true for a couple of podcast hosts. We also talk about why simply having a name for this experience can be quietly life-changing, and how to know what's normal versus when we might need some extra support. Whether you're in the thick of early motherhood or years in wondering why it still feels like a lot, this one's for you. So without any further ado, please sit back, relax, and enjoy this episode all about matrescence. Chelsea, welcome to the podcast studio. We are very thrilled to be here during a very special month to talk about a very special topic, but I don't want to give everything away. So could you give us a little bit of an introduction to who you are?

Chelsea:

I am so happy to be here with both of you. Thank you, Dani and Emily, so much for having me and also for the support of the greater Postpartum Support International. I am thrilled to have this conversation today. So I'm Chelsea Robinson, licensed clinical social worker. I am also what I consider a matrescence educator, definitely a maternal activist. I'm a mom of two. I wear all the hats, and I am profoundly excited to speak on probably one of the most passionate topics I could ever talk about. So thank you for having me.

Dani:

Absolutely. We're so excited you're here.

Emily:

I would like to dig in to the details.

Chelsea:

Let's go.

Emily:

Okay. So for someone who has never heard the word matrescence before, like what is it and why does naming it even matter?

Chelsea:

Oh, I love this question so much. And within that one word, it holds so much depth and context and can provide so much explanation as for who we are as mothers. So without further ado, if you don't mind, I'm actually going to geek out and provide you the more formal working definition of the term matrescence.

Emily:

Yes, do it.

Chelsea:

Okay.

Dani:

We like geeky things. Let's do it.

Chelsea:

I love this. All right. So a little context. So Dana Raphael is the woman, an anthropologist back in the 1970s, who initially coined the term matrescence, which really was to represent the birth of a mother. But since then, after it was buried away, it has been revived by the incredible work of Dr. Aurelie Athan at Columbia University. And because integrity, I think, is so incredible to this field, I wanted to provide the working definition myself. So this is as written by Dr. Athan. It says, in my expanded definition, the process of becoming a mother, or matrescence, the term first coined by Dana Raphael, Ph.D., and which I later built further upon, is a developmental passage where a woman transitions through preconception, pregnancy and birth, surrogacy or adoption, to the postnatal period and beyond. The exact length of matrescence is individual, recurs with each child, and may arguably last a lifetime. The scope of the changes encompasses multiple domains—biological, emotional, social, political, spiritual— and can be likened to the developmental push of adolescence. Whoa, and where should we start?

Dani:

Hey, we're asking the questions here. No, I'm kidding.

Emily:

Middle school was hard. This is hard, too.

Chelsea:

Exactly. No, I think that that's such a piece that can make this term feel tangible is when Dr. Athan says, matrescence is like adolescence. Because then you are. You're forced to think back to that time in your life and you're like, oh my goodness. My face was breaking out. I was struggling with my friend groups. I wasn't sure who I was, what I wanted to wear, what my values were, who I wanted to be in the world. Right? Like so many existential questions when you're trying to figure yourself out in this really messy period of time. And doesn't that feel familiar to your experience of becoming a mother?

Emily:

Oh, yeah.

Dani:

I didn't know that was something we were going to go through. I'm trying to remember when the first time, the first time that I heard the term matrescence, but it wasn't very long ago, like maybe within the last five years or something. I don't know about you, Emily.

Emily:

I don't know.

Dani:

I mean, if you think about it, of course we're going to go through like a big transition, like a big thing's happening. Right? But I didn't I didn't think that that's what was about to happen for me when I was becoming a parent. So.

Emily:

Well, and I think that's like the core of it. Like we're supposed to already have it all together and have it all figured out before we become parents. So like all we're doing is like introducing an infant to an equation. There's no other- we already know everything. Like we've already figured out the birth plan. It's going to go swimmingly. Everything's going to be fine. We already know how we're going to parent because that child is going to operate whatever our preconceived notions about- I'm being completely ironic. Like you can't plan for any of this. Like–

Chelsea:

But we think we can. Right? And like, I think that's part of what takes us all so much by surprise is that we read all the books. We listen to all the podcasts. We talk to like our OB and our midwife or whomever that person is, our own mom, our friends who have had kids. And we think, OK, like, I feel like I have a good grasp, a good handle on this. And then it still feels like this like huge initiation into an identity. Oh, yeah. We thought we would just somehow like so neatly fit into that for so many is both this incredible experience of like shedding and like unbecoming everything we've ever been told we would be simultaneously while trying to like raise a child and live into this new version of ourselves that like we've never met before. I mean, what?

Dani:

I'll speak for myself. Maybe nobody else has felt this. Just kidding. I know this isn't true. I wonder why so many moms feel blindsided by this identity shift that comes with becoming a mother. Do you have ideas?

Chelsea:

That's such a great question. And again, so many reasons as to why. But I think one big piece that underlies this is that there's this assumption that it should just come naturally, Right? It should just be this easy, breezy, beautiful experience that we somehow just like arrive. And one day we wake up and we fully can identify and embody all that is beautiful with being a mother. And so when it doesn't fit so nicely and beautifully into that box, I think, you know, we end up going, oh, my goodness, like, what's wrong with me? Why is my experience so much more difficult than anything I was expecting? Why aren't people talking about how disorienting it is, right? And that's why this word is so critical. There's a word that describes that experience of disorientation, as Athan says, that actually is saying no, to a degree that experience is normal. Right? Like we should be experiencing a sense of who was I, who am I and who do I want to be? And matrescence is the word that gives us permission and creates like this framework for now understanding ourselves.

Dani:

Like, oh, there isn't something wrong with me. It's like this shift, you know, like when you start to think of it like this is a new phase of my life. There's new things going on for me versus, I don't know. I definitely had that like, who am I, kind of identity crisis. Like, you know, because it was like I wasn't thinking, OK, there's like this new big thing that's happening or about to happen. I just was like, why does this feel different? Something wrong with me?

Chelsea:

Like all you did was introduce another human being into your orbit and were somehow like, oh, this should just like, we should squeak by.

Dani:

Mm-hmm.

Emily:

I just OK, I had a thought. So.

Dani:

Uh-oh.

Emily:

I think it's really interesting that like the term was first coined by someone who's an anthropologist, because I always think about like the way we live today and how it's really different than like how humans lived a couple thousand years ago. Like lots of change in a very short period of time. We used to live so close in proximity to each other that like we would have bore direct witness to someone else's transition. And that is gone. We're getting a snippet of someone at a mom's group or we're remembering our own parent, but we're not remembering, like we don't have memories from like the first two years of life usually, right? Like that's the part where like the reorienting is doing its like its greatest work. So it's like we have snippets of today. We have sound bites. We have almost curated versions of what motherhood looks like before we even enter it.

Dani:

Often unrealistic.

Emily:

Not necessarily intentionally.

Dani:

Maybe sometimes.

Chelsea:

That's fair. That's fair.

Dani:

Sorry, I'm like Debbie Downer over here. Have you seen the internet lately? I don't know.

Emily:

I mean, Instagram, sometimes it's curated.

Chelsea:

For sure.

Emily:

It's intentional. But like, because we each live in our own separate houses and we meet at places, right? So like, I'm not showing up somewhere not having showered yet, not having put clothes on, you know, like, we're going to do all those things to like, put ourselves the most together that we can before we leave the house. But a couple thousand years ago, we weren't doing that.

Chelsea:

Yeah, we weren't performing, right? Like we were just existing side by side.

Emily:

We were living in multi-generational like households, not even households. I mean, we were living even in closer proximity than that, you know?

Chelsea:

Yeah. So really speaking to like how much evolution has changed the way that we experience becoming and then being a mother, how we raise children has evolved dramatically.

Dani:

I'm over here like, can we get a direct line real quick to a mom 2000 years ago- hey, were you guys able to pee alone or is that just uniquely 2026 right now? Or...

Chelsea:

Right.

Dani:

I'm kidding.

Chelsea:

That's so good. Yes, please. Tell me how things are so different than they used to be.

Dani:

I'd love to do a comparative analysis.

Emily:

It would be a very good question. Like so much has changed, so much of our ability to understand these life transitions. If I had an older sister or a cousin who had had a baby six months or a year or two years before me and we were all living together, I would have watched it happen and I would have helped. I would have been right there.

Chelsea:

Yeah, there's such a loss, right? This hyper independence that we have as a society, this idea that like I'll just do it by myself and I'm proud of myself for being able to do it by myself. And asking for help is a sign of weakness, right? And all of these ways that I do think we then pathologize what's a really very normal experience. And we do, as we talked about briefly already, we look inwards and it becomes that internal reflection of like what we're not capable of or of our own capacity and our limitations. As opposed to then looking at society and culture more broadly and being like, what happened? Like, where did all of my alloparents go? Where did that village really go that used to not just raise a child, but raise a mother too, right? Like raise a family.

Emily:

Yep.

Chelsea:

For me and in the way that I understand matrescence, I think it's so hard to talk about maternal development then without talking about like the larger, more broad, systemic and cultural experience of motherhood, right? That deeply informs us as women and who we think we should be, right? like working so diligently to earn that like good mother title.

Emily:

Yeah.

Chelsea:

And that definitely impacts our development and our sense of self.

Emily:

For sure. Okay. So beyond this like emotional experience, this like unmooring and who am I and am I even doing any of this right? Because I'm measuring myself against these other metrics. What neurological hormonal changes? Like what else is happening? A lot, I'm thinking, right?

Chelsea:

A lot.

Dani:

Leading question.

Chelsea:

Right? I mean, we know, I think, hopefully, we're beginning to understand more of the maternal brain and of all the neuroplasticity that there is and how it's not really like mommy brain. Like, we dumb ourselves down so much. We don't necessarily. Society, and the cultural messaging does, right? Of saying like, oh, no, I lost my keys and I can never remember where they are when the reality is, wow, incredible. Your brain is adapting so that it can remember- or not remember, so that it can rewire itself to be able to attune to the art and the work of caring for children. Like it's such a mind shift when we move from like a deficit model of understanding mothers to one that is more strength based. Right. Where we then go, oh, it makes sense that we're having some of these challenges because our hormones are raging. We're not sleeping. We don't have systemic support. Our brains are truly changing.

Dani:

We're learning entire new ways of operating day to day.

Chelsea:

Yep.

Emily:

It's like when you have a baby or a toddler and they learn a new skill, the amount of dysregulation, the amount of like sleep disruption that occurs while that process is solidifying. But no, that only happens to what? Kids?

Chelsea:

Right.

Emily:

No, that happens to all of us. Like, that's what you're saying is that, like, we're going through this, like, seismic, systemic change.

Chelsea:

Yes.

Emily:

But we're not giving ourselves that grace.

Dani:

It should be expected.

Chelsea:

Right.

Dani:

It should.

Chelsea:

Right. I love, Emily, that you just made that analogy, right? Like, the child development, we understand, we have compassion.

Emily:

Right.

Chelsea:

But in maternal development, we're like, oh, no, no, no, no, no.

Emily:

Like, I better pull it together.

Chelsea:

Yeah.

Dani:

Yeah, you've had your X number of weeks off or whatever.

Chelsea:

Mm-hmm.

Dani:

Anyway, that's another story for another episode. About to rant about-

Emily:

And another thing!

Chelsea:

No, it's so good. I think that that's matrescence. And when we incorporate the frame of matrescence, the theory of matrescence into maternal mental health spaces, into just really understanding ourselves as mothers, I think it begs of us to see our resiliency. It begs of us to see, you know, the strengths that we have and the incredible capacity that we actually are growing into rather than, again, just looking at like the more negative understanding, the deficits and all the losses that we've experienced when we became moms. The most important job in the world.

Emily:

Right. Okay. I want to ask the next question because I like this one.

Dani:

Fine. She's cutting in line. It's fine.

Emily:

Sorry. I want to talk about like grieving the loss of what we had before. Right? I'm leaving the house. Grab a bag. Go.

Dani:

I'm going to trivia night at a bar.

Emily:

Right. Or I could go to sleep at a normal hour and wake up in a normal hour.

Dani:

I'm not feeling well. I'll go lay down and take a nap.

Chelsea:

Oh, you're so speaking right to like that freedom, that spontaneity, the free time, the free space in our brains that was just ours. Right? Like.

Dani:

Yes.

Chelsea:

Dani, you were like, oh, I'd love to call the mom 2,000 years ago and be like, could you pee without a kid in the bathroom?

Dani:

Like, what was happening for you? I'm just collecting some data.

Emily:

Were they like little hands under the door, like trying to break in on you too? Yeah.

Dani:

Did they not want anything to do with you and as soon as you sat down to pee, somebody had an emergency? Because same girl, same.

Chelsea:

That's so real, right? When we think about like the compounding effect over like a 24-hour period of just being needed that much and how much time we used to have that was, you know, free to be spent in any way that we chose. Whatever shows we wanted to watch, we could watch them whenever we wanted. Like listen to whatever music we wanted. Eat whatever food without feeling rushed, right? All of these pieces are truly so significant because I think we've like, it's like disenfranchised grief. It's grief that we should be grateful. We should be grateful that we have these children, right?

Emily:

Should be grateful to eat these half-eaten chicken nuggets that are cold.

Chelsea:

Yes. Yes.

Dani:

That somebody threw on the floor first.

Chelsea:

Oh, it's so real.

Dani:

But I digress. Sorry. Sorry, Chelsea.

Chelsea:

Take my scraps. Eat my crumbs.

Dani:

Uh-huh.

Chelsea:

And be grateful for them. Because you asked for this. I mean, I think grief and motherhood is, again, kind of almost a taboo subject because of the cultural messaging around like, you waited so long for it, you should be grateful, or like anything that really minimizes or erases or just bypasses the loss that is really, truly profound for women as we become mothers, right? That- all that spontaneity and that freedom and that free space up here and the physical free space out here that then is just gone. Yeah, so I think that's a huge part of the experience of becoming and then being a mom because I don't know that that necessarily ever ends. I think it just shifts form through different child development milestones. But yeah, grief is a huge part of matrescence.

Dani:

Yeah. And I think to answer our question, you can love your baby and still grieve the life that you used to have and the fact that maybe your life doesn't look the way that you thought it was going to look.

Chelsea:

Yeah.

Dani:

I was thinking about the other things that might come up during matrescence that moms might be a little bit afraid to say. And I'm thinking about that. It hits home for me because I was undiagnosed because I didn't talk about how I was feeling. There was a lot going on. I know for Emily and I both, when we became moms, there was a lot that we weren't hearing from other people. And it was like this internal conflict of like, do I say this out loud? Like, I know that neither of us, you know, we both got pregnant pretty quickly, decided that, okay, we're going to try to start a family. And that part came easily. And then when I didn't like how I was feeling or, you know, it was like...

Emily:

Or you didn't always like parenting.

Dani:

Yeah. Like, but even before my babies were born, like, it was like, should I say this out loud? Like, I don't love this. I was afraid that people would say- of what people might say to me, Like, but you wanted this.

Chelsea:

Yeah.

Dani:

Yes, and.

Chelsea:

Right, exactly.

Dani:

There was a lot that I was afraid to say out loud. I don't know. What are other things that, I mean...

Emily:

No, what are people afraid to say out loud? I want to know.

Dani:

Drop it in the comments.

Emily:

Yes.

Dani:

Send us an email. Dani@postpartum.net. D-A-N-I. I'll drop it in the show notes.

Emily:

We might have to read them all.

Dani:

Oh, yeah.

Emily:

What were you afraid to say out loud?

Chelsea:

I love that idea because that's shame, right? Like, we're so scared as mothers that if we admit any of these again, that then, you know, that's a representation of us being like, quote, bad moms, right? Because a good mom these days is defined by someone who is emotionally available to her children 24-7, right? She's read up and she knows all the latest things and she's available to her kids all the time. And she meets them like with such, you know, regulation and like all of these ideals of what it means to like be a good mom.

Dani:

With such regulation.

Chelsea:

Yeah.

Emily:

What's that?

Dani:

16 years later and I'm like, come on, self, regulate.

Emily:

I think we should put our money where our mouths are. And I think we should each say a thing that we were afraid to say.

Chelsea:

Oh, I love that.

Emily:

Okay. Chelsea, go.

Chelsea:

Ooh. Okay. Hold on.

Dani:

Like, do I have to pick one?

Chelsea:

It's so much.

Emily:

Just one.

Chelsea:

I think one that was really big for me was I often felt like I was failing and I was failing how I could show up for my kids. I was failing how I could show up for my work. I was failing my partner. Like I wasn't even self, like didn't even feel like that was, there was nothing to fail. Like she didn't exist. I was like always, my sense of self was tied to output and like someone else.

Dani:

Oh, yeah.

Chelsea:

And I think that felt really scary for me to like admit that I couldn't do it all and be it all.

Dani:

Chelsea, that's shocking.

Emily:

That you can't be it all and do it all.

Chelsea:

I know. I know. Sorry to drop that here.

Dani:

Yeah, I'm shocked.

Emily:

Spoiler.

Dani:

I didn't expect that.

Chelsea:

I still try sometimes. That's like the hard thing.

Emily:

Yeah.

Dani:

Me too.

Chelsea:

Right.

Dani:

Emily, what's your truth bomb that you're afraid to say out loud?

Emily:

I'm trying to pick one that isn't inappropriate.

Dani:

Oh.

Emily:

Let me think. You know how you could like drop a baby off at like the fire station? I occasionally, when I was at my absolute wit's end, would fantasize that I would go do that. Like, I want 24 hours all to myself, please. Or it wasn't even like 24 hours. Usually it was like, I just would really like you to take a nap now. Or I would just like you to not be screaming and I can't console you right now. It was like it just felt like I needed to solve whatever the immediate thing was.

Dani:

Is there a reset button on this thing? Can we like to do it like a hard reset?

Chelsea:

Your timing is off for me today.

Emily:

Right.

Emily: Like I'm going to need you to freak out at 4:

45 so that I can handle it for 15 minutes before dad gets home.

Emily:

OK?

Chelsea:

Yeah. Yeah. So inconvenient.

Dani:

I mean, that's kind of what I was, I mean, similar to what I was going to share, that it was hard for me to admit that I really liked time away from my kids.

Chelsea:

Such a good one.

Dani:

I have three kids, and I think that my oldest might have been eight the first Mother's Day that I asked for a couple of hours alone. Like, when I was asked, like, what would you like to do for Mother's Day? I finally felt eight years after I became a parent, like it was okay for me to say something so simple as, would it be okay if I had a couple of hours to myself? And you know what the answer was? Absolutely. We'll make it happen. And I was like, it was like my shoulders dropped and it was like, and I just did that big sigh of relief that, damn, I wish I asked for that a long time ago. Like-

Chelsea:

Yeah.

Dani:

I should have said that eight years ago, but it's OK. I did. But that's an OK thing to ask for. But I thought I had to do all the things.

Chelsea:

Yep.

Dani:

And you know what? Other people can help take care of the kids. OK, so they don't put the pajamas on the right way. They don't know how like strawberries need to be cut today versus yesterday or how much peanut butter to put on a sandwich. Everybody's going to be OK. You know, that's what was real for me. I wish I had said that out loud.

Chelsea:

So real.

Emily:

Yeah.

Chelsea:

So real.

Dani:

We're just saying the realest things.

Emily:

Yeah.

Chelsea:

But like you gave yourself permission. And I think when we say it out loud, then we give other moms permission too, right? Because they're like, okay, well, she did it. Like somehow she worked through all the discomfort, all the guilt, all the shame, all the ick, all the like feelings of like I'm losing control. Like everything that comes with that. And she did it.

Emily:

Yes.

Chelsea:

Bonus that you were met with like, oh, sure, of course, no big deal, right?

Dani:

Totally.

Chelsea:

On that side. But for us, it can feel like the biggest ask and like the biggest like truly letting go of like everything that we have wound ourselves up so tightly around to feel like an assemblance of self.

Dani:

Yeah. Like the last thing I wanted on Mother's Day were like flowers that would make me sneeze because I'm a total nerd. I'm like allergic to pollen and everything. You know, it's like it's this like gesture that many people love. And I think flowers are beautiful. To me, the most beautiful thing was silence for two hours.

Chelsea:

Yeah.

Dani:

Because I was home with the kids all the time, so.

Emily:

Yeah.

Chelsea:

I hear like you say that and it makes me think of like maternal ambivalence, which again, Dr. Athan says is like one of the cornerstones of our matrescence. And that is just this. That is being able to hold two opposing truths at the same time. So like you can say, I deeply miss my old life pre-kids. I miss the freedom and the spontaneity. And I also love this life and like everything that comes with it. You could say like, I don't necessarily love playing on the floor with my kids and like thinking of all the like, I don't know, all the creative ideas, but like I love snuggling them at night, right?

Emily:

Or you love playing with them and you don't really love snuggling them at night.

Chelsea:

That's perfect.

Emily:

This is why we don't have our 2,000 years ago village because there would have been like a mom and a sister and an auntie and like all kinds of other figures to like meet all of those needs.

Chelsea:

Well said. Absolutely. So it is just that, right? Like it's realizing that like, again, it's not either or, it's both and. So it's allowing us to like increase our psychological flexibility and our like understanding of ourselves to be like, oh, I'm not bad for really loving this and not loving this. You know, both of these things can be true at the same time. And indeed, that's normative, to be expected.

Dani:

So there, you heard it here first. Just kidding. If you've never heard it.

Emily:

We have deep emotional range is what you're saying.

Chelsea:

Exactly. Exactly. I love being able to like teach that to my kids now, too. Like this idea of like both and where like, right, they can come home and have had like a really cruddy interaction with a good friend and be like, yep, that moment can suck. That moment that wasn't cool. And remember how much fun you had yesterday? Right? So both of those things can be true at the same time. And we don't have to like be fully defined by the bad or fully defined by only the good. Like we can allow ourselves to ebb and flow in between.

Emily:

Yes.

Dani:

Motherhood is like beautiful. It's disorienting. It's yes and. Yes and. That's like very improv theater, right? Yes and.

Emily:

Oh.

Chelsea:

I love that.

Emily:

Okay, how is matrescence different from like a postpartum mental health complication? Because I think the transitions and feeling too complicated things that don't feel like they could be in the same space or related to the same thing, you know, mourning the loss and also loving this life. How do we know like when we've gone from the land of one outside and into the land of another?

Chelsea:

I am so appreciative of this conversation for that reason, that I think that this is still a line that is being hashed out and talked about. And as we continue to learn and understand more about maternal development, hopefully that alone can help us begin to really differentiate between what is more normative and what is then maybe more pathological. But I think we already do know what maternal distress looks like when it does meet clinical significance. So when it does go into the PMADs, right? We know that it's impairing our daily functioning.

Emily:

But children do that. Like our daily functioning, right? I didn't get enough sleep last night. The baby is fussy today. Like-

Chelsea:

Fair. But like, how severe is it?

Dani:

I'm very West Coast right now. I'm like, is Emily being argumentative? Just kidding.

Chelsea:

No, but these are the conversations I think are so critical, right? And I think we need each other to push back and to understand and to deepen into our understanding of what it means to bring matrescence into the conversation.

Emily:

Yes.

Chelsea:

Because we surely do not want to equate maternal distress more broadly with PMADS, nor do we want to erase the true and very real consequences and symptoms of PMADS by including matrescence, right? So like it's again, both and, but maternal mental health has like fought tooth and nail to like legitimize itself. I mean, women's health more broadly has fought like that to like legitimize itself.

Emily:

Yes. Keep fighting.

Chelsea:

That's right. That's right. The good fight. Keep fighting. But like mothers especially are, you know, a very unique niche that deserves to have all of their own funding and policy and research given to them. And so by no means is introducing matrescence denying that. I think it's simply saying that like we have that and let's continue to use that as that boundary, right? Where we can say it is your daily functioning and the level of impairment. It is the severity of the symptoms and how long they last. Right now, that's like kind of those parameters because you're right, Emily, like distress happens in more of the non-clinical diagnostic symptoms too. It's muddy.

Emily:

I just made another connection in my brain.

Chelsea:

I love it. Let's hear it.

Emily:

So not all teenagers, not all middle schoolers are clinically depressed or clinically anxious, but they are all going through this like huge transitional period of which we can expect from all of them emotional dysregulation and like poor decision making because they're being impulsive. And so we've got like this set of things that there's going to be overlap in what we observe in ourselves or in someone else going through this.

Dani:

Like when we're talking about perinatal mental health disorders, it's like, have you been experiencing these symptoms for more than a couple of weeks, right? That's how you know it's not the baby blues, quote unquote, right? That's what everything used to be called. That was interesting talking to my mom about it. She's like, oh, I think I have the baby blues. She might have had more than that, but there just weren't words for that, you know?

Chelsea:

Exactly. That's it. And now we have words, right? Because I think that inadvertently what can happen for some mothers is that they begin to say, well, I'm not bad enough.

Emily:

That is the slippery slope.

Chelsea:

I don't meet criteria for a diagnosis. So there's no like evidence-based treatment for me or there isn't medication to support me. But I'm still deeply struggling. So there must be something wrong with me.

Dani:

We were talking about like, what were you afraid to say out loud or?

Emily:

Yes.

Dani:

We're going back to that question because it ties in here. Stay with me, everybody.

Chelsea:

I love it.

Dani:

I mean, when I was at the doctor's office, you know, you're there all the time for checkups on your kiddo. Not many parent checkups, right? I remember the doctor going, oh, how's everything going? And I was like, fine. Like, how are you? Like, I'm the interviewer. I'm going to be asking the questions. Like, I just avoid, not going to talk about how much I'm struggling and having actually a really hard time. And I remember thinking to myself, it's probably not as bad as it needs to be for me to say something. I'm probably not having that hard of a time. Like, somebody probably is having a harder time.

Emily:

Than me. Right, right.

Dani:

Wish I could go back, hop in a time machine and tell myself, hey, say what's real because it doesn't have to feel this hard for so long.

Emily:

You know, it's interesting because, again, I'm going to compare this to people in middle school because I have people in middle school right now. So it's like highly relevant. And it's like when they come home from a school day or when And the, you know, like I'm checking in and like, how are you? I'm not expecting things are great. So good. Everything- amazing. Like I'm expecting way more drama, way more emotional upheaval. Like somebody said something about me or, you know, a teacher called me out in class and it felt terrible. Like stuff that's normal, but very hard to navigate at that developmental age. Still hard for us.

Dani:

The answers are not what we're expecting. The answers are, eh, it was okay. That was my answer to my doctor. How are things going? Okay, I'm pretty tired.

Chelsea:

Right, and then they kind of like, okay. They like don't probe much more than that oftentimes. Or like they hand you, you know, the scale and you check it off and you hand it back in anonymously. And you're like-

Dani:

I think perinatal mental health certified providers, you know, have got some extra skills, you know, in their tool belt to encourage more open conversations.

Chelsea:

Yes, fair. I was thinking more like pediatrician.

Dani:

Yeah.

Emily:

But even the pediatrician, like if we normalized the difficulty of this transition for everyone, and instead of looking for like only the red flags, we looked for like the yellow flags and the beige flags and the not exactly green flags. And we just normalized the conversation that like this is a hard transition for you and everyone else in your household because it is a big change to throw another human or two if you had twins into the mix all of a sudden, right? But we're not yet normalizing that it's hard. We're expecting people to say, I'm fine.

Dani:

I have a very important question for Chelsea that I'm hoping she can shed some light on. Chelsea, if this is resonating for somebody who's listening, a new mom. How could she tell whether what she's experiencing is hard but normal as she transitions into motherhood versus a sign that she might need some extra help? How do you tell the difference?

Chelsea:

I mean, can we just say if there's any question of your experience, get the help.

Dani:

Just say something?

Chelsea:

Just say something, right? Like if you're experiencing any kind of like, oh, this feels really hard and I'm not so sure what's happening. Or if my experience is, quote, normal, which this is part of the problem.

Dani:

No such thing.

Chelsea:

Right? Like, then that is your cue to just reach out. And whomever you reach out to, hopefully they are skilled and trained and have a profound, deep understanding of PMADs and can then help kind of, right, like figure out and help you define for yourself alongside them if it does meet that criteria or not. But then you don't leave going, okay, well, I didn't make criteria. So therefore, you know, you internalize it further and don't seek help. You say, okay, no, but I can stay here. I'm still worthy of support to process through these challenges, regardless of diagnosis or otherwise. And I'm happy I'm here because if this is the case, I do meet criteria. Well, thank goodness, because now I'm in the hands of a provider that knows what to do so I can heal.

Emily:

Yes.

Chelsea:

Again, can it just be both and? Like if there's that feeling inside of you that, hmm.

Dani:

You know what? Like this isn't what I thought it was going to be. Like I'm feeling off. Like this feels harder than I thought or whatever.

Chelsea:

Yep.

Dani:

I would like to just do a quick little plug to the helpline, to PSI's helpline, because not everybody has a partner that they live with. Not everybody feels like comfortable admitting to a friend or a family member that, I don't know, they're having a hard time. You can call PSI's helpline, link in the show notes. You also can text too. I'm a millennial. I will age myself here. If I am calling somebody or somebody's calling me, it had better be an emergency. Like I feel so comfortable texting. I have to say, listen, if you love being on the phone, talking to people, that's perfect. Somebody will talk to you in the helpline. Also though, for those of us who are like, I think not, but I will text anybody about anything. We got you.

Emily:

Yes.

Dani:

You can text the helpline as well. So you can ask these questions. Like if you're too afraid to say it to a doctor or to anybody else in your life, you can say it to somebody who has been there before, who's volunteering on PSI's helpline because they care about you and they can help you talk about what's going on and try to point you in a direction to get you some support, however that might look. Okay, thanks. I just needed to do a quick plug.

Chelsea:

I think that's so important. I also don't want to like, again, just like minimize or downplay. Like if ever somebody is at like such a significant point where it reaches crisis, where it's like, you know, they like flip their lid and they're just like deeply in it. Like it isn't about like, should I or shouldn't I? It's just like, let's just go straight to the resource, the immediate available resource that's there because like you do matter. And we can figure out what it is and give it a name and all of those things after you're connected to the right resource to support you.

Dani:

And if it feels like a crisis, there's also info about the maternal mental health hotline in the show notes as well. And on PSI's website, postpartum.net.

Chelsea:

Awesome.

Dani:

On the helpline, you can get a hold of somebody pretty quickly. But that maternal mental health hotline is like right away. So.

Emily:

I think I'm about to solve the world's problems.

Dani:

Oh, my gosh. I didn't know that it was this kind of episode.

Emily:

Apparently it is.

Dani:

Okay.

Emily:

Because again, if we think about the teenagers and the tweenagers as being a similar population, when you're in middle school, this varies place by place, like school system by school system. But broadly, school systems know that they need to do like social and emotional learning. And there are guidance counselors and there are counselors and sometimes there are like school psychologists because we know that this is like a vulnerable transitional age. If we approached motherhood the same way, then we would have social and emotional learning for everyone. We would have access to counseling and encourage counseling for everyone. Because even if you're ready and everything goes according to plan and there are no chemical imbalances in your brain, you're still going through a huge change. And processing that with someone with skills is wise.

Chelsea:

I mean, I think that's it. Like, I think, you know, that's why that being able to pull on the similarities between adolescence and matrescence is so critical because we now know what to expect with adolescence and we have supports in place. And Emily, you named it so perfectly, right? Like as a society, there's more understanding, there's more compassion, and then there's more resources that follow it.

Emily:

Right.

Chelsea:

Programming that's been developed, policies that have been developed because we recognize the vulnerability and the acuity that's within that stage of human development. And matrescence is no different. And in fact, what beginning research is suggesting is that if we can kind of follow a similar approach where we like provide education and front load the process of becoming a mother, that that might actually decrease the risk of PMADs, right? It acts as a protective factor if we have frameworks and education and knowledge ahead of time. So I think, Emily, you just like summarized it so beautifully that there is a way that this can be like maybe both preventative as well as then just that added context and that added developmental framework that can depathologize it where necessary and increase what we consider normal. Normative. Sorry.

Emily:

But that's it, though. Like there is such a broad range of the normal experience of this transition.

Dani:

What is normal?

Chelsea:

So, funny you should ask. Dr. Athan describes like if we look at matrescence on a spectrum where like one end of the spectrum are like the 10% of mothers that might meet diagnostic criteria for PMADs. And then at the other end of the spectrum are the moms that are thriving and like flourishing. Right? And all in that motherhood is fantastic. The other 80% of moms are what she calls the messy middle. So the moms, right, that don't meet diagnostic criteria and aren't thriving but are just like, whoo, mind blown. This is really difficult.

Dani:

Like, I didn't check the forecast and I didn't know a storm was about to blow in.

Chelsea:

Exactly.

Dani:

My hair is messed up. I wasn't ready for this.

Chelsea:

Yep. Yep. So even like thinking about like healing from PMADs, right? And like that experience and then still arriving in the messy middle, still being like, well, here I am. Right? Like we've managed to provide the stability and what's necessary to kind of move through and heal that experience for me. But now I'm still in it over here with maybe skills and support and knowledge and tools, but still to a degree in it.

Emily:

Yes. I want to ask a question.

Dani:

I want to ask a question. We've established that there's no such thing as normal. It's okay to talk about how we're feeling. It's actually a great thing to talk about how we're feeling because this is a big life change that all mothers experience. You said something, Chelsea. I think that it was in our pre-recording meeting. I think it was like, you know, 20% of mothers experience a perinatal mental health.

Chelsea:

Five in five.

Dani:

Okay.

Chelsea:

Yeah. One of the ways that I have really been trying to conceptualize how significant matrescence is as a field and as an experience is by saying, okay, so one in five mothers will experience PMEDs. All five in five mothers experience matrescence.

Emily:

Right.

Chelsea:

Right? So even that one mother, this is kind of like what we were talking about before, that one mother that is experiencing PMADs, she is still experiencing matrescence.

Emily:

Right.

Chelsea:

Which to me, just like, it's all unfolding within her development, right? So we're speaking to her acuity and her vulnerability, especially in that very early on, you know, postpartum phase. But yeah, all five mothers, every single mother, no matter how they became one, is experiencing matrescence.

Dani:

Five out of five.

Chelsea:

Five out of five. A stat we don't talk about enough. Till now!

Dani:

Hey, we're talking about it. What can partners and family members and friends do to really support someone going through matrescence?

Chelsea:

How long do we have to answer this? Just kidding.

Emily:

As long as you want.

Dani:

Got an hour? No, I'm just kidding.

Chelsea:

I know. I think that, like, educate yourself. Understand, right? Like, how impactful, how significant this experience is. That it isn't like this bounce back idea, right? Like the mother in this family is profoundly changing. Right? And so the expectations you've placed on her, the assumptions you've made on her, like all of these things need to be up for conversation and negotiable and flexible and, you know, where she is centered in these decisions that are being made. And I guess like I would add to that, that while, yes, we're here talking about mothers, Like there is a theory of patrescence, which is the man's transfor-

Dani:

Follow up episode next month. Just kidding. We don't have it in the works, but we should.

Chelsea:

It's good. And it's like worthy of conversation, too. Right? Because he is also experiencing an incredible transformation, not always as like acute and as quickly as she is, but there is still so much going on behind the scenes. And I think that, again, like just naming that, just saying that like this is so much bigger than anything you could have ever like planned for or any books you've ever read. And the amount of compassion that's necessary to have for yourself and for your partner is like so significant. I guess one other piece and this like fits in there is that like, my goodness, we know how significant like peer support is for moms.

Emily:

Yep.

Dani:

Yeah.

Chelsea:

Right?

Emily:

We love that.

Chelsea:

It's essential. And I just want to bring that home that like moms need other moms to see them in their matrescence, to see them in who they are becoming. Right? So oftentimes our peer groups begin to shift when we become mothers and we can struggle figuring out like who we fit in with and if our old friend groups are still going to meet us. But like, my goodness, how badly we need peers.

Dani:

That was crucial when I became a mom. I met some really lovely, some of the loveliest friends of mine because it meant a lot to connect with somebody else going through maybe not exactly the same thing. Their experience wasn't identical, but they had a kid around the same age and they got it. They just understood. They were sleep deprived. Their pile of laundry was like Mount Everest also. Like, like, just kind of like, always replenishing.

Emily:

Yeah.

Dani:

Like one of the biggest truths I think of like motherhood is that like, none of us know exactly what we're doing. I thought I did. I thought I knew. None of us have it all figured out. And we are always probably all just adjusting constantly. I think that's the beauty of peer support, because true peer support,

Emily:

I think that's the beauty of peer support, because true peer support, like something that's like structural peer support, not like you call me on the phone and like complain about the kid not taking a nap, but like true peer support.

Dani:

Like a support group.

Emily:

Or having a mentor or et cetera. Yes. There is an understanding that it is safe to be vulnerable and to say those things that like earlier in the episode we were willing to say. But like it's- you don't just walk around saying stuff that's hard or that you could be judged for. But peer support is built with the structure for that to be where you can say these things. Like you can just be real there.

Chelsea:

Yeah.

Dani:

We also have some peer support if anybody's interested. I'll drop links in the show notes.

Emily:

We do do peer support.

Chelsea:

It's so necessary.

Dani:

Yeah. Well, Chelsea, is there anything else that you would like to mention? This has been so lovely to sit down and chat with you all about matrescence, something that isn't talked about enough. I wish I had heard about it 16, 17 years ago, but it's OK. We've got hot mics and the Internet now and we're talking about it.

Chelsea:

That's right. That's it. On that note, like, I think that it's still relevant 16 years in. Right. Because if, as Athan suggests, right, it's a lifelong developmental process. It's not something that like, OK, cool, three years, you're done. You've officially arrived.

Emily:

I've mattressed.

Dani:

Yeah, you've matressed. You are out of matrescence.

Chelsea:

You know? She suggests that like there's an early, a middle, and a late, right? And so you're still in it. You are still evolving, right? Your values might be changing, your priorities, like who you are as a mom because your kids have aged. And so that's begging of you to like kind of reconfigure who you are as a mother in relation to them. So like, sure, it would have been nice to hear about this like 16 years ago, but like still irrelevant and hopefully still feels like, oh, because I now know this, like I can see myself in a really cool way that I didn't have before.

Dani:

Yeah.

Emily:

If we didn't continue to evolve to meet the ever-changing needs of these tiny humans that we've signed up to raise into adulthood, then we'd treat them as toddlers for the rest of their lives, or we would treat them as middle schoolers for the rest of their lives, or we would treat them as not quite adults for the rest of their lives. And our relationship to them has to evolve as they grow.

Dani:

Just like we're evolving.

Emily:

Which is why this is so hard, apparently.

Chelsea:

Right? Like, we're going through all these, like, pushes where you're, like, being thrown into the deep end again. And you're like, oh, I thought I had it figured out.

Emily:

Right.

Chelsea:

Here I am. I'm back in it. And you cycle through. And then you're like, okay, a phase of more stability again. And then, whoof, right back in.

Emily:

Yes.

Dani:

I was told we were in the shallow end for a little bit. No.

Emily:

That is incorrect. Yes.

Chelsea:

Yep. Lots of water.

Emily:

Well, I have loved this episode and I realize we've recorded for longer than theoretically we thought maybe this episode was going to be. And I have absolutely no regrets because I think there's a lot to this conversation. And I want to keep learning more and digging in and talking about it.

Dani:

I am unapologetic about the length of this podcast episode.

Chelsea:

And I'm like, I'm sorry.

Dani:

No.

Emily:

Not sorry. Sorry, not sorry.

Chelsea:

Not sorry. Not sorry. No, I'm grateful. I'll turn that sorry into gratitude and say thank you. Thank you both so much.

Dani:

Thank you so, so much for being here. Thanks for tuning in to the I Am One podcast. Check out today's show notes where we'll drop links to all the important things that we mentioned in this episode. Please consider sharing about I Am One on social media and following and rating our show wherever it is that you listen to podcasts. It only takes a minute of your time and, well, that'll help our collective mission of bringing resources and local support to folks worldwide. From everyone here at PSI, thanks again for listening.

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Dani Giddens (she/her)

Host
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Emily Jankowski (she/her)

Co-host