Masters Alliance
9th Dan BlackBelt and Olympic Gold Medalist Herb Perez visit with the best and brightest to bring clarity to the future of Martial arts.
Masters Alliance
The Day I Had to Apologize to TJ's Mom
What happens when a combat sport's scoring system fundamentally changes what techniques are rewarded? In this revealing episode, we analyze footage from the Grand Prix Challenge match between CJ Nicholas (USA) and Sol Jungwoo (Korea) that highlights everything wrong with modern electronic scoring in Taekwondo.
Through frame-by-frame analysis, we expose phantom points, missing techniques, and bizarre scoring anomalies that have become commonplace in high-level competition. More troubling is how these systems have transformed the very nature of the sport – athletes now prioritize any contact with electronic sensors over proper technique, power, and the strategic movement patterns that once defined Taekwondo.
The conversation takes a nostalgic but critical turn as we compare today's matches with footage from the 1988 Olympics and 1989 World Championships. We lament the loss of Taekwondo's "attacking matrix" – the beautiful technical framework where every attack had a logical counter, creating a complex and effective martial art. Today's linear exchanges, with athletes standing toe-to-toe trading front leg techniques, bear little resemblance to the dynamic combat that made Taekwondo an Olympic sport.
We also discuss international training experiences across generations, from our own teenage adventures training in Korea with no language skills to watching the next generation navigate similar journeys today. These cultural exchanges remain one of the sport's most valuable traditions even as the competitive landscape continues to evolve.
Is Taekwondo losing its identity in pursuit of objectivity? Can electronic scoring be fixed to reward proper technique? Or should we create parallel competition formats to preserve the art's technical heritage? Join our passionate discussion about the future of this Olympic martial art.
I'm Terrence, run to the scene on drill. I'm sorry, not sorry. Ain't it funny? Herb P on the track, my sister ill Advise opinions maybe, but facts ain't lies, it's cold metal mentality. Watch the sunrise 1F1, I'm checkin' in so we're sittin' pretty. Still mean. Second best in the world. Get witty. Face down to Ponyx. Pressure cookin' hot. Gave my sweat, my focus, everything I got. Dj Kwanzaa. Dj holding down the bar. I'm still on the stage. I want the job to turn into a thing. Learn to discipline folks. Respect for the fight. My fight ain't lies, it's only vitality. We've been through some hell, born in a wild dead reality. Just me and you Still me Checking me out on the box.
Speaker 2:Some of it is something down the floor. All right, we are back. This is the warehouse 15, and today I'm going to start with an apology to tj's mom.
Speaker 3:So remember that what we say here is in jest.
Speaker 2:We have nothing but love for your son. We are very proud of him. We uh, we were were glad to find him when we found him, then he found us and he has done amazing things since then, and so I'm not going to say my usual tagline, because for moms, moms get a pass. So my mom, is.
Speaker 4:I was going to say yeah, man, I can use a tagline.
Speaker 2:I'm not saying it, not using it.
Speaker 4:Everyone except for Mrs Jennings.
Speaker 2:That's it so, moms get a pass. My mom defended me vehemently, Just for today though, just for today.
Speaker 3:Just for today, oh, no, no.
Speaker 2:That doesn't mean I'm not going to be me with you. I'm just letting your mom know why. No, no, your mom, whatever she says.
Speaker 3:So her pulling up on me or whatever the street vernacular is yeah, so where where's your mom?
Speaker 2:where does your mom live?
Speaker 3:in virginia, in virginia where I grew up, a little bit, a little bit more south from where I grew up. Does she have an open carry permit? I don't want, I'm not, I'm not gonna put her business out there, but she might all right.
Speaker 2:So miss, miss, uh, miss jennings, please accept my sincere and dearest apologies and remember that that my name is Juan Moreno. Welcome, welcome, coach Moreno. What do you got for us today?
Speaker 4:Man, I'm excited. I know we're going to do a little video review. I mean we're getting. We got to talk about the camp that we had after the grand Prix. We got to talk. Did we talk about that last time? I don't even remember. We got to talk about the camp. I just got back from Minnesota. I have some questions for the organization to shout out there. Yeah, man, I got a quote from one of my guys, josh, that I'm going to talk about a little bit later.
Speaker 2:The guy hit me at the right moment, man hit me at the right moment, something that I needed to hear today and yeah, I'm going to pull that out in a couple minutes, but yeah, excited to be here, as always, mr tj, my most favorite and most amazing person, the gentleman that I look up to for taekwondo technique and knowledge, and I, when I was writing my book, every paragraph in it was me thinking about you. How are you today?
Speaker 3:today, sir, I'm good, chen, and actually, like Coach Mendoza said, it's been a busy two weeks. We did have the Grand Prix Challenge, we had the International Exchange Camp at the gym out here in Charlotte and then we went straight to Minnesota on Friday. I've been thrown into the epitome of what it means to be a high-level coach and a development coach all wrapped into one, and I commend these guys for what they've done and how they've done it for so long, because it is definitely a grind, you know, being able to show up for the athletes every single day and work with them every single day and different levels, and go back home and do it again on Monday. So for for me, it was a good weekend, very, very good, busy start to a hopefully a long term of doing those kind of things at the gym and obviously continue with the peak performance program stuff.
Speaker 4:We'll talk about that, but I just want to make sure you're okay Young, because I know your little baby is in Japan I'm having personal withdrawals and I could.
Speaker 6:I got no one to yell at.
Speaker 2:I got no one exactly. I have nobody to lecture and I can't yell at him because he's in japan, but um, he's, he's doing great. I'm gonna try to find.
Speaker 4:Let me show you this I saw that a couple things that you posted. It was pretty cool man yeah, what was that?
Speaker 3:he was speaking japanese. He's speaking japanese man.
Speaker 2:This boy is like listen, Thank you.
Speaker 2:That's him being welcomed at the academy, and so we're just so thankful for the opportunity. And I want to thank my good friend, hussein Alamusalam, who is the director general and president of swimming internationally. We've been friends for a long time. We met during my time at the Olympic Committee, when I was working for the Olympic Council of Asia, and he reached out to the Japanese Football Association, their soccer association, and they've just been an amazing host. The club is Avispa Fukaoka and it's an island in Japan, very hot, and Nico's just having a grand old time being free from me being free for me.
Speaker 4:I thought I just heard you saying something like I can't believe, man, you try to send your boy abroad to get a girlfriend you know, I, I, I think his girlfriend is a soccer ball and I'm okay with that.
Speaker 2:So his, uh, like it should be, his, he does soccer. When I was young I had time for three things Um, I had time for Taekwondo. I had time for music and academics uh, four things. There was the other thing and the uh. You know, but, uh, the kids these days, or not they are good at one of them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, exactly, I try to be good at least at one of them and so, uh, so that's all we had and that's all I did, but I'm happy for him. And you know, coach Moreno and I and you, when was your first time going to Korea, tj.
Speaker 3:Oh, I think the first time I went was in 2003 for the. They did a Pan Am Championship team. I actually got second that year, but that was back when there were no ranking points. So the number one person I think was Mark at the time. He didn't go, so they sent the second place person, which was me, and we went to Korean Open over there for the first time in 2003.
Speaker 2:My year after I made junior team.
Speaker 2:You can only imagine. You were there for that and Coach Moreno and I went there and lived there and trained there, and I can remember my first international trip because I'm a New York City kid man. I, you know, I thought, I thought when I went to my, I saw trees, when I went to camp, that's the kind of kid I was. So when I went to Korea, you know you land and the sights, the sounds, the food, the people, and it's so weird to be immersed in a culture where no one I mean back then no one spoke english.
Speaker 2:So you wanted to eat, you had to figure out how to say what you wanted, you wanted to get home, you needed to figure it out or you had to walk and so, uh, it was a, it was a great and, uh, humbling experience, but, more importantly, just revitalizing it, just amazing to go and do that. So for him, you know, to be immersed in japan, I'm excited for the. We'll see what young man comes home. But then he goes, he's home for a couple days and he goes to brazil to fluminense. Yeah, so we'll see that's pretty cool.
Speaker 4:Well, sure he's not coming from brazil, because he might as well love on brazil, but well, they're gonna put him in.
Speaker 2:You know brazil. You know how brazil is so Fluminense, has a training facility. What's the big city it's on the outskirts of? Is Buenos Aires, brazil, or is that?
Speaker 5:No, it's.
Speaker 3:Argentina man San Paulo.
Speaker 2:San Paulo. So, yeah, I'll have to look up where the training facility is, but he'll be secluded and you know, and that's another whole style I was watching. Did you guys watch that World Cup of clubs, Dude? These guys, they play different soccer in Argentina and Brazil. These guys, they rock, they rock. Last night I was watching Inter Milan from some other club and the club was from Argentina and the two guys got in and got on it.
Speaker 2:They got into it on the field and then they were like, okay, let's go into the tunnel, so nobody sees it. So the one brother from Inter Milan ran into the tunnel. They grabbed the Argentinian guy and tackled him to the floor so that they wouldn't be in the tunnel, punching each other in the face.
Speaker 4:Yeah, it's a lot more personal. I mean it's a little bit like Taekwondo. I mean in Europe in Taekwondo it's a little cleaner, it's a little bit more point-based, it's not so personal. I mean people lose and they dap each other up. In South America we push to say Young. I mean I know that.
Speaker 4:You know TJ went back in 2003. You went back in the 80s, so did I? I mean talk about no one speaking the language, talk about no phones, no communication. I mean I remember going to a pay booth to call my parents. I mean it was just crazy and I was 15. At least you were a man when you went there. I mean I was. I literally had never been out of the country, just sent me on an airplane. I'm like what the well? I remember flying over there in korean air going what am I doing? Like who do I meet? Like like I didn't have a name. There was. No one gave me a name, nobody gave me a picture. Like I already just remember getting off the plane carrying a bag and just one guy looked at me. I looked at him, he looked at me and he turned around and I just followed him. You know what it was?
Speaker 4:it was icky, john, john, icky, he's oh, yeah, yeah, so anyway it's just funny kind of stuff, yeah, but that's that's great, that adventure.
Speaker 2:Like you know, nico had to go through korea, right? So he gets off the plane in korea. Doesn't call me, because he knows what I'm going to say, so he calls my wife. He doesn't know where to go, like, where do I go? She's like find the gate. You know, find the gate. So he gets off the plane in Japan and luckily there was somebody there to pick him up. And when I went, you know, coach Isang Isang oh my gosh, it's Kiyosumi Inao he picked me up. He was the president of the Taekwondo program there and then he became president of isonguk and he became president of the university. So I had the actual like guy pick me up and he didn't speak english, a little bit of english went to his house for breakfast, it was his birthday and uh, just, you know the culture and the amazing welcoming of it and the hospitality was unparalleled it's funny, let's get onto our show.
Speaker 4:But like it's funny because when I went there like this dude, I was a kid, this, this grown-ass man, he didn't ask, he didn't offer to carry my bags. I got on a train, I got in a bus, um, I go up same thing to the, to the one of the professors at king's uh apartment with his family. There. They put me in a room, like I. There they put me in a room. They put me in a room and I was sitting there.
Speaker 2:You were a pet.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and their daughter came in and tried to speak a little English to me and then I remember they weighed me and my arrogant self. I'm like, oh, they're trying to figure out what weight category I am, but you know what it was. The guy that sent me over to Korea. They wanted to make sure that I didn't lose too much weight. They wanted to make sure I ate.
Speaker 5:You know what I'm saying, so it was funny. That's a crazy way.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I mean, I didn't know that until later, but I was like man, they trying to size me up. They know who's coming over here, man.
Speaker 3:That's crazy, though I never got a chance to. Oh, never, never never, we went over there for I trained a little bit while we were in korea, but like I never went to a full blown, we're gonna go to a training camp, and I always hear the stories about all the, the, the miles of running in the morning and then oh yeah the billions of kicking in the afternoon and then thousands of fights afterwards chanting while you're running and running up mountains I mean the
Speaker 2:generation of guys that we came up with, like when I went to chede, they had 45 of the best athletes in the country, men in each division. They had five in each. They had 40, 40 in each and they had five in from each the top players. They went out and recruited them, so that was park bong kwan. You know he? Uh, what was his name? I jung su. I mean, they had oh um myung chan. Yeah, from that, from that particular program, I think in the 88 olympics, they had three or four athletes that made that team park bong kwan. Myung chan was there.
Speaker 4:Um no, they were listen in those days, they were good and all. I mean there's a couple universities but you're right, tj, they're running and stuff like that. I mean I think it's gonna change a little bit now. I mean they were listen in those days, they were good, and I mean there's a couple of universities, but you're right, tj, the running and stuff like that. I mean I think it's changed a little bit now. I mean, obviously, like our country has changed, but I mean it was. It was not fun, you know, to be honest with you, it really wasn't.
Speaker 2:I mean many good stories yeah, yeah, well, no doubt, listen, they, uh, they were tougher, you know, and and the programs there were tougher and you know, one of the best coaches in the history of the sport ran the high school program and that was uh kim say up and his athletes and his program.
Speaker 2:You know he was, he was brutal, you know a guy showed up to practice with hair too long, they all shaved their heads. I got hit with sticks. I mean, you couldn't do that today. You know kids would cry when I went to korea.
Speaker 4:They took me to kyung yi day and then they looked at me and they were like this guy, this kid's too small and they sent me to dongsung high school. So I stayed in a little uh place right and that was where that you know kim taehyuk was and the guy that I fought in the olympics was.
Speaker 5:Quante Ho?
Speaker 4:Yeah, quante Ho I didn't know who he was Bobby Clayton and Park Bong Kwan all those guys would come back there in the afternoon because they'd go to the university and they'd come back to this high school to train at night with this specific coach because he was just… the best. Yeah, he's the best. I mean, he's literally the best.
Speaker 2:Well, I know, today we're going to talk about and we're looking at and we're going to watch a match. So this is something new. If you have the youtube, we're going to share the video so you can see it. Um, and it's going to be a good conversation because it'll be a conversation a little bit about the scoring system and then certainly about some of the things we see in it. But let me let me take a second here to figure it out okay, can I, can I say something before we get on?
Speaker 4:I mean, while you figure that out, I just want to say, like this weekend I know we had that international camp. I don't know if we talked about that TJ at your place. Did we talk about that, or is that?
Speaker 3:were we in between A little bit, a little bit, a little bit.
Speaker 4:I think, we just just the continuation. Yeah, because it's quick. I just want to say just a real quick thing. Listen, I want to give a shout out to Coach Oidley. He's one of my original peak performance coaches. He had us all out to Minnesota. He's been having one every June.
Speaker 2:He was a guest on the show. He was a guest on the show.
Speaker 4:Yeah, prepped before nationals and stuff like that. But this one was particularly special because we really had like a, you say kind of tj, almost like a reunion. You know we had yeah, tj was there, page was there, james howe was there, russell benny b was there, your wife was there and that my wife was there. Um, coach park from canada came in. Uh, I'm missing one of the other coaches. Just well, I'm talking about our peak performance. Uh, reunion coach I keep waiting.
Speaker 2:I keep waiting for the invite. You know, I feel like. You know, I understand USA. Taekwondo may not like me, wt may not like me, the Kuki one may not like me. You know, mexicans don't like me. Tj's mom doesn't like me, but like you guys, I mean, come on now.
Speaker 4:I asked you before it was kind of cool.
Speaker 3:It was definitely cool to have that many of us around. It's interesting. I was looking at some of the pictures on the wall there and I see like, particularly like Alassane when he was younger, this little kid like goofy-looking kid and now you know he's been able to fight and develop into an Olympian and get through all these things and it's pretty cool to see the process of that and kind of seeing some of these kids that I've. You know that I met when I first went there for peak camps, when and I was maybe 20 some years old, 22, 23 years old and they were like 12. And now these kids are 22 and they're still involved, they're still active, they're still helping be a part of the development. I think that part was pretty cool.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and that's all that's. That's really what I want to talk about. Tj is that there was like there was literally generations. There was my generation with TJ and a lot of these guys, and now they have students. Some of those students have kids. You know, it was just. It was crazy. Oh, james, howe I miss James.
Speaker 4:Howe and his wife. So like we were just all there and all the coaches were on the floor working and like you said, to see, you know, al sounds a great talk, you know, because the kid was in the after-school program and now he's an Olympian and runs a school for OI. You know, you look at, you know, ava Lee. You know who was this little girl running around? We used to carry her in diapers and now she's fighting at the world championship level. And to see Skylar Park and the Park family, you know, coming to us, it was just really cool to see the lowest of the low, the highest of the high, and it was beautiful for me. I mean I almost felt like a grandpa, you know, kind of sitting back watching everybody. I mean I worked a lot like at the camp itself, but I was really proud and happy that, like what we've been able to build. I know people talk about peak, peak, peak, but to see everybody in the same room, you know, bringing their own athletes, now it it's not just them, it's their athletes now coming with our athletes and man, the family was great and and we had a really, a really good level, um, of little kids, of juniors and of seniors. Like I said, we had how many olympians training that day? There was like four, four olympians training. It's. It's crazy. So just a lot of fun.
Speaker 4:Again, shout out to Coach Lee, because him and his family, his wife and the WTA family they were young they took us out to their lake house, we did jet ski and we rode on boats. You know, he took us to dinner. I mean, the dude is just a I know people look at him because he's kind of a scowl and stuff like that but what an amazing host, uh, brother. For me he's literally like my brother, I mean, uh, just a great, great guy. So yeah, just want to give a shout out to him well, I think that you know I didn't realize this, tj.
Speaker 2:but you know, with your headphones in that microphone you look like a telemarketer for a late night, like lose weight program, something, call now and you too can yeah, I mean, I don't know what it is. I think it's the way the microphone comes down or something.
Speaker 4:But TJ's mom that's a joke, Just a joke Couldn't wait TJ, he couldn't let it go 17 minutes in.
Speaker 2:That's all it took. What happened to the clock?
Speaker 3:What happened to the clock? I want to get the clock back. I think I need it. You've been okay so far we haven't got too deep, but I'm going to have to bring the clock back.
Speaker 2:You've got to bring the clock. Let's watch the video. I'm going to get it. We're going to start a share.
Speaker 3:What are we watching again?
Speaker 2:What are we watching? This is the athlete from the US is competing against the athlete from Korea, and I think it's a breakdancing competition. I'm not really sure what it is. I had to watch it twice because I fell asleep during the break between the first and second round and I had to be woken up. But let me get it up, no pun intended. So can you guys see it? You see it now, yeah.
Speaker 4:All right, let me do this. I'm going to make it big for our audience. Are people at home going to be?
Speaker 2:able to see it. They will, it's going to be and they're going to be able to hear it. So what are the?
Speaker 3:rules to watching this match. Like I like watching Taekwondo matches.
Speaker 2:Like are we going to stop, pause it?
Speaker 3:we can pause it, so all you gotta do is, I don't mind, I just want to know the rules, because you know I know we might go off on a tangent and start talking about this fight club your last time you made spaghetti or something crazy in the middle of this match.
Speaker 2:So all right, so let's, let's pre-frame it. We have what happened to his hair. Who is that?
Speaker 4:let me pre-frame it because, listen, this would be a very what do you say? A match that I would want to see, quite honestly, because they fought before, but it just happens to be on this system which we're going to see is a little bit crazier. I mean, I know Dr Kavner wanted to come on and debate with me, but I told him I had no defense of this event because I don't even know what was going on. I don't even know what the points were going on. I couldn't tell you. So you know, this would be a great match on a normal KPMP or maybe even a Gen 2. This Gen 3, it was, it is what it is. Let's watch it.
Speaker 2:All right, I'm going to, I'm going to start it and then let me know if you don't hear the audio. But I have the audio on as well, and this is being commentated by I don't. It sounds like somebody from North Carolina has a little bit of an accent and I don't think they actually do Taekwondo, because they don't. I don't, I'm not talking about the athletes, I'm talking about the comment commentator. But if you can recognize the commentator, let me know winner in manchester.
Speaker 2:These have been the two most dominating fighters in this division oh, it's doing the choppy thing again and so it is the best for last in this case so the people that are watching it won't see the choppiness, it's just you right off the bat, nicholas.
Speaker 5:It's a tight little round kick but it doesn't score and, honestly, it doesn't even register. Both guys score quickly, 2-0. I'll try to keep up.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but the audio's ahead. And it's a beautiful what was that the audio's ahead and I can't see what the actual exchange is.
Speaker 2:Well, the video is going to play in real time for people in the audience, so the commentary may seem, but that's just the way you see the video. Right there we're at 5-2.
Speaker 4:I'm going to bring it back so we can get it. That's a problem right there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're going to go to that, you're going to see a lot of action.
Speaker 5:Both these guys have been outstanding. Excellent fodder right off the bat. It's a tight little inside round on skid but it doesn't score and, honestly, it doesn't even register. Both guys score quickly, 2-0. I'll try to keep up. These guys are kicking it. And it's a beautiful sliding round on skid just over the shoulder.
Speaker 2:And that's the problem, right there, right. So we'll stop it there for a minute because, for the people that have listened to it, there was a all of a sudden, out of nowhere. I couldn't see what it was. It went from two, two, which I didn't see, the two two either, that's, I saw one of the techniques, um, and then this one is where it stopped and it became five, two. So coach moreno can you tell? Us a little bit about this before we watch it.
Speaker 4:I'm assuming that there was a lot of phantom points where things were getting close and coaches, towards the middle and end of the tournament, they started using the card saying technical problem with the score Because things were missing, and so they would watch it. It would miss and they would give their card back. I think he asked for two things Number one I think one were missing and so they would watch it, it would miss and they would give their card back. I think he asked for two things number one, I think one. It missed. Okay, and later on you'll see they give the card back. They took off the three points. It went two to two, but he also the referee, kept his card. So that leads me to believe he asked for two things. And he asked for a spin because there was only one action by the korean guy. I watched this earlier. He did a little spinning hook kick to the back.
Speaker 4:It it's ugly, oh it's ugly, yeah, he did no up, he did no run, he did nothing. That was the only kick he did and two points went up. So by virtue of him spinning he should have gotten four.
Speaker 5:So I don't know.
Speaker 4:I have no idea how the referees, after reviewing it, did not see that the only kick the guy did was a spin kick. There was no other kicks. Two points went up. Therefore it had to be a four-point play. So it should be 4-2 Korea.
Speaker 2:But it ends up being 2-2. Got it All right, so let me play this a little bit further, because they're going to show they go back. I'm going to skip all this. They're going to show the video Looking on a spin.
Speaker 5:Maybe he's looking the video, so they actually show the video so take away points and add points is what they're looking for and interesting enough so they show it here, if you look at the screen you can see that the foot never he's talking about that hook right there to the body which he should be hit with a stick for even throwing that technique.
Speaker 2:And then this is the point that they try to say that CJ scored. Well, the system said CJ scored.
Speaker 5:And you can see it didn't go anywhere near or touch anything, are you?
Speaker 3:talking about that face kick. Yep, I'm trying to watch it on my phone at the same time so I can be on the same spot.
Speaker 2:See, how it misses. See right there, it went over the shoulder.
Speaker 5:Is there a team?
Speaker 2:from Great Britain here. See how it misses. See right there. Yeah, it went over the shoulder, yeah Is there, a team from Great Britain here.
Speaker 3:I think that's always, you know, that's been an issue.
Speaker 4:I don't know, I've always hated that. I've hated that since we were doing push-ups.
Speaker 3:You see it here For the face the three points and even the electronic helmets Like stuff gets close, it doesn't get close and we? It's like stuff gets gross.
Speaker 2:It doesn't get gross and we Well, let's talk about that. Most coaches don't want to risk their cards to. It's obvious that that kick didn't even come. That kick didn't even the toe, didn't even glance or touch anything.
Speaker 4:It was literally a kick to the top of the shoulder, young, there was all kinds of stuff like that, even to the body, like spin kicks, where people clearly block things, spin kicks and four points were going up. I clearly block things, spin kicks and four points were going up. I mean there's, there was stuff to the back. We I can show you little video clips like spinning hook kicks to the middle of the back and five points going up it was. It went from two to ten. I mean there was just. It was so much. I don't blame the coach and the athletes because nobody you couldn't keep up with it.
Speaker 4:So yeah he's in the chair, he's watching the fight, he's looking at the scoreboard. You don't even know what's going on. It was so crazy.
Speaker 2:That's why I said I can't be coming. I watch a lot of taekwondo, like you guys, and I don't understand. But let me go to this next section here, real quick real quick.
Speaker 3:My problem with this and the problem with the way it's still scoring and I'm going to go a little bit more I, I think, where we are in this day and age. You know, it's still a crazy match because these athletes were able to over-adapt and still outscore and still figure out, do all these good things, but this system goes back to what was it? 2022 World Championships in Guadalajara? Yeah, it was the same the first day when they said it was because of the pool water. Remember that whole thing? Yeah, yeah, what? Yeah, the water in the room was affecting the signal or something weird. But you saw the same thing People getting swung on and hit and not being touched and getting bonus points for not coming close. I mean. So this for me. I know the shock value because it was so much in one place, but this system has been doing this.
Speaker 2:This is not new. Let's watch a little bit.
Speaker 3:Let's watch a little further, because they took their face kick off though.
Speaker 5:Hard for me to tell. Yeah, they did take the face kick off. They saw they have a better angle than us and we'll go 2-2.
Speaker 2:Like that. In fairness, that was a decent up ball yeah.
Speaker 5:They are absolutely crushing the test protectors.
Speaker 4:Like you said, they're terrible, but they don't score. But now watch that?
Speaker 2:Where did that point come from?
Speaker 4:Which one?
Speaker 2:There's a three right here it was 2-2. Now I could actually I should slow it down. Let me slow it down, but did they take it?
Speaker 3:off for holding or no. No, not this one.
Speaker 2:Let me slow it down just a little bit. Yeah, but he's.
Speaker 3:Honestly for this system and any system, the Korean boy is good at that.
Speaker 5:He hits that out loud.
Speaker 2:Now watch this. Watch this.
Speaker 5:What was that?
Speaker 2:The first one he did what was that. He wrapped his foot.
Speaker 4:He does that a lot, though, to a lot of people. The first one. He did the second one. You can see his foot wrapped pretty good. So what do you?
Speaker 2:get one point? For what do you get one point for? He got a come down, he fell yeah he fell, so CJ got one deduction. Got it, got it, got it.
Speaker 4:I mean the Korean guy deductions, so he got it when it scored, that was close.
Speaker 5:Oh, that was close.
Speaker 4:What was that? A little up on the side, I mean I'm telling you I can't defend it, like, yeah, what happened? Like where did those points come from? I think a little front, leg up, defend it Like yeah, what happened?
Speaker 2:Like where did those points come from?
Speaker 4:I think a little front leg up.
Speaker 2:All right, so it's 6-3 for those that are listening on the podcast. Another mystery point 6-3 for Nicholas versus Sol.
Speaker 5:And the Koreans scored. And that was a loud technique and he got 2.65.
Speaker 2:And the Korean scored and that was a loud technique and he got 2.65.
Speaker 5:Back and forth, we go.
Speaker 6:Now he's going to get a minus point for falling Spin go high Spin, go high, back to your top, back to your top, back to your top. Let's get it, let's jump the action, let's jump out.
Speaker 5:Let's get it.
Speaker 6:Those guys going back and forth.
Speaker 2:Now, that was a decent punch, right. They scored it. They scored it, they scored it.
Speaker 4:It was it, they scored it. It was like one of five punches throughout the weekend. Big punch.
Speaker 5:That's one of the punches that does score around here, and it scores because it's big, it's stopping and it's loud.
Speaker 2:That's another solid cut by Nick. So two points for a cut.
Speaker 5:He has an 11.78, just 48 seconds left here in round one. That's a nice tight round. That's what Soto does. Well, he's doing a great job of following his kicks, but Nicklaus is doing his own. It's a big face kick, doesn't score Come on Keep your distance, don't let him beat you into it. Stay on your knees, stay on your knees, I'm going to wear, and so does a great job of weathering the face kick and the spin and then inside right leg nice and tight, and that's what he does so well.
Speaker 6:Both guys straight body shots inside.
Speaker 5:Is there the cut, eric? Is the defense a cut kick, what the hell.
Speaker 2:What was that.
Speaker 5:He's tired. That's sort of a turn.
Speaker 3:Look at, knock him off. Yeah, these guys are always like this. I mean, at this point it's 20 to what? Well, I'm ahead but 17-12.
Speaker 2:You knew it was going to be good action, but take that for a minute. What?
Speaker 4:was that.
Speaker 2:So they were at 17. And then watch this, because this is interesting, right.
Speaker 5:Let me change the playback speed, just so you can appreciate what I'm going to say.
Speaker 2:Three points go up here. How was that? That was as bad as the first one.
Speaker 4:Yeah, do it again, one more time.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 4:It looks like it gets on his shoulder. Possibly See if you can go even slower, young.
Speaker 5:Oh, I can go slower.
Speaker 4:Think about that. That's two points. He didn't get three points that he just got. That's a five-point lead. It already came up.
Speaker 3:No, you went too far. Yeah, right here Right here Right here, right here.
Speaker 2:I mean that's as bad as the first one. I mean actually it's as bad as the first one.
Speaker 3:I think that left leg backside should have scored. This system is dumb Because I think the left leg backside, after the facing the left leg to the backside, should have scored. It was nice, flat and wrapped. I don't know. I don't know.
Speaker 5:And a sliding axe to kick that square and that's big. That takes it to 20. I mean really it should be. He's going to continue to press and fall.
Speaker 6:What's going on?
Speaker 2:What's going on? What's he doing? That's just.
Speaker 6:But like you look at it three points off.
Speaker 5:You know my problem with this.
Speaker 1:There's four deductions in this right now. There's four deductions and two deductions All in a span of three minutes.
Speaker 3:And like even worse, these guys are fighting for three minutes and that's still such a big factor in the match.
Speaker 4:They're avoiding, they're not trying to fall they're not doing any of that stuff and that four points is so think about this like right now, there's three points for a face shot, right, right, there's two points that they missed on a spin, that's five, right, it should be five change. And then there's the. You know they're fighting every single time, the clinch and the kicking. And then the one time the guy gives him a point, when a point scores, he gives a come down, takes up two points. So that's a three-point swing. So that's five and three, that's an eight-point swing in USA's favor. And look at the score Yep, I mean that's big. You know, I know those are matches. I'm not crying about the deduction, but the three that they missed, I mean the two, that was a spin, and the three, that's a five-point, right there. And you know, think about it.
Speaker 2:What is this? Seven and eight is the number of the player right.
Speaker 4:No, that's how many body shots, body shots they scored.
Speaker 3:Head shots. Oh, is that what it was? Seven bodies, one head, zero heads.
Speaker 2:Right Two punches.
Speaker 4:CJ got two punches that round.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, he did get two punches yeah.
Speaker 3:And then come junks he got four. Four deductions, though he did fall three times.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's a crazy game. I mean, obviously I've never liked the deductions for falling because I know where it started, when people back in the day would go pot of chuggy and roll and fall on the floor on purpose. But I've watched people get deductions for slipping on the slippery World Tech window letters in the middle and I get a deduction because the letters are slippery is stupid. We go too far in this, I guess, in the ability to try to say we're being so fair and we're doing the right thing. I think we've tried to go so far because you're masking all the stuff that is actually wrong and that's my issue. And obviously the headgears are screwy, the body shots are screwy, everything's screwy.
Speaker 5:All right, let's watch this Two CJ Nicholas Blue, USA, so Jungwoo.
Speaker 2:Why is he touching him? Round number two, what, oh my God.
Speaker 5:I never did that one before Anyway.
Speaker 2:So Jungwoo red Korea, wait, hold on a second.
Speaker 4:What was that Two he just puts?
Speaker 6:his foot there.
Speaker 4:No, he did double.
Speaker 6:Oh, he hit it twice yeah.
Speaker 2:So I didn't even see it. That's wacky. Let's watch that one more second.
Speaker 5:I don't know, if you knew that.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, I saw, I saw, I saw, I saw.
Speaker 5:So round number two CJ Nicholas, blue, usa. Zo Jungwoo, red Korea.
Speaker 6:Come on, whoa.
Speaker 4:Register Right Red Korea.
Speaker 2:Man, I don't even I mean, I guess. That was a six point that was also an up ball. Yeah, it was an up ball, but I mean I guess we'll talk about that later. None of these are points Like they're points on this chest protector.
Speaker 3:So now he's down 6-0 with 140 to go.
Speaker 5:So he does another one. He does another pick of TJ Nichols with an inside round.
Speaker 4:To get himself back in and now he's up to 6-0. It's funny, because the Korean guy doesn't back up and he gets up and gets in and out of it.
Speaker 5:She's in control now, right here Watch this One more time.
Speaker 6:Not here. He's on the other side. That one, yeah, here it comes.
Speaker 4:Yeah, here it comes.
Speaker 5:Oh, beautiful spin. 360 round kick from Nicholas and he scores it big and long, so he trims that lead. There's two points with one kick 360 round kick, not a bomb round kick. And there's Soto with his right leg inside again Back up to 8-4.
Speaker 4:He's not right.
Speaker 5:Left leg here with the short inside round kick with both legs, but the right leg in particular.
Speaker 2:What was that? I didn't see that.
Speaker 4:It's hard to see.
Speaker 5:I don't know if it's up on our screen Down 6-0. Now it's just down 2 at 8-6.
Speaker 2:That was that weird. No, not a sidekick, that's not even a sidekick. What that is is a nothing kick. But it scored. And let me explain. Let me just tell you what my. This is a great place to talk about this problem, right? So let's watch that for half a second. Here's where the point comes.
Speaker 4:Oh no wait, Did it come here here? Here it's coming here Down 6-0.
Speaker 5:Now he's down 2 at 8-6.
Speaker 2:That's what scored. It was a hook.
Speaker 4:It was a hook to the back.
Speaker 2:It was a hook to the back of the chest protector. That wouldn't be a point. If you hit somebody with it, the only thing you would hurt is the bottom of your foot, that's normal.
Speaker 3:That's where we do body hook. They do body hooks to the back.
Speaker 5:They do body hooks to the body hooks, to the back.
Speaker 2:They do body hooks at a front to the face. I mean, this day it was really 12-12 team, you keep it up.
Speaker 5:Where's your first head kick? Pessoa gets a roundhouse kick. Oh, he kicks around the guard. That's an incredible move by Pessoa. He just kicks around the guard. He just comes back with a double, follows his double with a single and scores a 16-15 joke 23 seconds left and this is exactly what kick window is all about.
Speaker 5:The match is hope Fighters laying it on the line. Winner take all in the final. This is round two. If we see another round, we're going to have to keep going. Cj Nicholas throws a body shot doesn't get it. Does get one. Throws a head shot doesn't get it.
Speaker 2:Nicholas gets a head kick. So there it goes again, the mysterious head kick. So watch this, you guys still there.
Speaker 5:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:All right, let me slow it down a little.
Speaker 3:I mean, I think this was again I think we've probably seen this match always together.
Speaker 1:I've seen this match before, but like I, like that.
Speaker 3:Neither one of them went away. You know what I mean. Neither one of them went away. They kept taking shots the entire time. I mean, unfortunately, I've been doing this and watching these games for so long this starts to look normal, a little bit other than that ultra-sensitivity of the chest guard.
Speaker 2:Nothing, not anywhere near the face. Damn, that's true. Not even near the face. That's ridiculous.
Speaker 5:Hey hey, he's like left leg, shoot you to the face and Joe's going to spin. You know he's going to look for that turn and it's close. That back kick is very close.
Speaker 2:Anyway, that's all we can watch of this, because it's over though three seconds left.
Speaker 2:There's no seconds left, it doesn't matter, all right, uh, so anyway, let's go back to all of this. So let you know, just on first glance, for whatever it's worth, um, if you were going to count that, if you were going to look at that as a real match and in fairness to the level of taekwondo, and if you're going to score it legitimately, point-wise and this is not uncommon in Taekwondo, but there are a lot of points that weren't scored, that should have been scored, that were actual points, like round kicks On the other side of it, the punch points. Probably I would have given those two. But the hook I mean the majority of the match was weird up balls, some of which were decent and most of which were crap. There was no stepping, it was linear and linear, with no complex motions of attack and retreat counter. There literally is no counter matrix, meaning I attack and then I use that as a precursor to set up taekwondo technique.
Speaker 2:So my best example of this is trap back kick. I round kick. You try to pata chagi. I do back kick, or back hook kick, you do double kick, counter whatever. None of that happens. So when you take all of that and then add the hook kicks to the body, the missing face kicks that score. What are you left with? And then the scoring system that can't discern what a pointer is or isn't. So what are you left with?
Speaker 3:where am I? What am I?
Speaker 3:missing I got. You know it's funny because I said I think I'm a little numb to it. I'm very, very numb to it because I've seen this system do this a bunch of times. I've seen these kind of matches where obviously, if we're just speaking very generally, the front leg rules the game. It's closer to the body, I can make contact early before you can make contact with your back leg. We're amazed and thrilled to see someone who doubles and triples or who changes up and does something different. It's exciting because the majority of the game is played a certain way, out of safety, out of necessity of touching the chess card, out of necessity of just getting close. So it's like I'm a little numb to it, but watching it back a little bit, it definitely takes the juice out of that match. For me, because they are both great competitors, it is a lively match. I've seen, like I said, the up balls, up balls, yes, here and there. The way he wrapped his foot, yes, just normal cj's dynamic. Cj goes to the face, he follows.
Speaker 3:I think the only good takeaway for me to imagine that neither one of them kind of went away. They kind of fought each other and stood there. But you're right, and the korean boy. To be honest with you, the pace game, he he's all pace. He's gonna go forward, forward, forward, forward and until you get tired and he's okay, okay with going three rounds. I think this time he wasn't able to get it to a third round, but I feel like for him that's always the goal. He fights a lot of tall, bigger 80s and it's the same game, it's the same pace. He pushes them, he pushes them, he pushes them until they fall over and that's like his style of Taekwondo. I think that's the only. I think either your technical or your pace you have right now in this game Not too much in between. You know, I mean, the great fighters do some stuff, that's cool, but that's just where we are. You got to kick more, to score more and unfortunately, I know, love it or hate it, but that's where we are.
Speaker 4:Listen, young, when you break it down like there was nothing, it was linear. It was this there's no steps, there's style is? He's short? He fights these giants, this dude. They say go and you see him like the referees have to push him back every time. He's all gas and when he gets going he wraps his foot. He hits pretty good and pretty heavy. But that's that style.
Speaker 4:I'm thinking in my head right now when I watch the heavyweights. Alessio, you saw just the opposite. They're checking, they're moving, they're counter-up-balling, they're clinching. It's much more of a chess match. Those two just happen to be all go and when they get with each other it looks a little bit like that.
Speaker 4:Now add on the scoring system absolutely 1,000% sucks, because it rewarded some of that stuff. Um, that's where you know. I didn't watch it like that. You're right. There was two face shots that probably didn't score. There's a back kick that should have scored, that should have had points added on. There was a front hand punch that shouldn't score because they told it's illegal. Look at that. Six, eight, nine points in favor of usa in there. That's crazy. That's crazy when it comes down to a close match. But I agree with TJ, this was two guys that had figured out the system a little bit throughout the day. They got there and they just kind of, they just clashed, they just clashed and one guy got the better of the system. That's all I can say on that one. That's really.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I don't, yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 3:I think we compare it to like I know, I know kind of where you're, I guess not where you're going. We were talking about just again, like the spatial awareness, like normally old school tech window. We're never one person not going off the line Other person if we looking at you like what the heck? But I think two things. I think back then, whether people don't like to hear it or not, there were more bigger, devastating shots. If you made a mistake you could go to sleep really fast. That's just the reality, Whether it be a back kick to the ribs or something hard to the face.
Speaker 3:But we got into this era of Taekwondo where you can afford to take more shots. You can afford to take more shots. The risk of taking more shots is, while doing those things, maybe something gets close to your face, maybe something scrapes, but it's not a fear of getting hit. So people are throwing a little bit more stuff. They're kicking the wrong side, they're back hook kicking to the other side. Those are like the I call them finesse points. Those are finesse points of sport tech window right now, Stuff that you would never throw in any way, shape or form.
Speaker 3:That's going to like apply damage to someone. It's just foot placement, it's just body placement, it's just angle, closing and opening. But it's again like if you compare it to the two, I think you can just like, if we've gotten there because there's not as much devastating, we don't have to check off everything. I know they're going to respond, I know they're going to lift their leg to stop me so I can throw a couple more risky shots or whatever you want to call them, or kick more without checking or motioning or moving. I can just kind of start and see off the clash or off the exchange. Where do I go from there?
Speaker 2:so what I'm going to do, I'm going to give you uh, I'm going to do one more share, and this is a long time ago, so for whatever it's worth, right? So let's just watch this for 10 seconds. So this is the world championships 89 yep and watch the watch the level of so my division yeah, yeah, basically they're fighting.
Speaker 2:you know a similar fight, right, but watch the Korean, see the stepping and the moving. And then you're going to see attack and release, you're going to see counters, you're going to see setup, right, and I could pick a million matches like this, and of course, there's a lot of bad matches as well. There's a counter, there's a re-counter, there's an answer, there's an in and out, out in, back in. So when you watch these kind of matches, you're seeing a different, and this guy is obviously overwhelmed. So here let me give you one last one, one of our favorites. I like this pace better.
Speaker 3:I mean, like you know, just being in Teguado's, I like this pace better. Obviously, I think we have changed. I mean it's just touch the chess card and try to make it go off.
Speaker 2:This is Kim Chorol. See the exchange of techniques, see the in and the out right and watch same tournament, by the way, 89. This is where he becomes world champion. And great fighters. They're trying techniques in and out. They're stepping right. There's a multi-directional aspect to it and, albeit fin, weights right. I think this is fin or fly, it's.
Speaker 3:This fly must be fly what I guess like what have you named again? And we shouldn't have to do this. I think it was very understood before. But, like boxing, you got your your jab, you got your your cross, you got your hook, you got your uppercut. You got those things, and those are what the, the referees, are looking for for scoring techniques. What have we limited to that? You got your hook, you got your uppercut, you got those things, and those are what the, the referees, are looking for for scoring techniques. What have we limited to that? You got your front leg up ball. You got your back leg round kick. You have ax kick. You got back kick.
Speaker 5:But we take away all the the reason you just say it just doesn't score
Speaker 3:like it's not a scoring technique and just leave it at that I don't I'm yelling too much, I guess.
Speaker 1:Huh well, chinese type of players their coaches are known for being extra passionate about the fight.
Speaker 2:And this must be Juan. Where's 99? Is that Cal?
Speaker 5:Oh, he's got one Edmonton, this time on the.
Speaker 1:Korean side.
Speaker 5:That ref looks familiar to me. Well, that's Mr Bruce Harris from the United States, very seasoned as an international referee and well-loved and respected throughout the international community.
Speaker 2:Let me go here. There's a lot of people watching this. Let's see what's going on.
Speaker 1:Good, moving around Two seconds, one second.
Speaker 6:Oh, another hit for the.
Speaker 5:Chinese Right at the last second of the fight Fantastic.
Speaker 2:Oh my God, that's Bruce Harris.
Speaker 6:Oh geez.
Speaker 2:But look at the attempts on counters, look at this stuff. I mean, look at the level, the complexity of technique. Look at the attacking matrix. And you could make an argument. It was a little more boring right? There's not as much action.
Speaker 6:But when the action happened, it was real action Three to one.
Speaker 5:Yeah, this is how I learned Tech.
Speaker 3:Wonder. But when the action happened, you know it was real action, right? Yeah, this is how I learned Taekwondo.
Speaker 5:This is how I was taught Taekwondo. You know, we're just not there anymore.
Speaker 3:I think we have to kick everyone's.
Speaker 2:being a little smart create opportunities, put in their foot, whatever, and look at even this. All right, I'm going to put up one last one, because this is the highlights of the 88 Olympics.
Speaker 1:What if you only traded zero DTE options around events that are 100% guaranteed to?
Speaker 2:happen. I encourage people to go out and kind of look at these and do the comparison right. See the stepping Like right there. For example, enter release nunchuck.
Speaker 4:Right, but the game is exactly what TJ said. I'll wait till it's done, so you can hear me.
Speaker 2:But look at, I mean, do you see the stepping and the multiple techniques, the combinations, and this is what's lost.
Speaker 4:But the problem is All right. You can't hear me because I'm talking. You can hear that it's too much Now the problem is that it's just a scoring Back.
Speaker 4:In our day you couldn't get touched because you can hear that it's too much. Now the problem is that it's just a scoring. Back in our day you couldn't get touched because you'd get touched and made a big noise or whatever. It was a subjective thing and referees would push the button. So you were always stepping. There was no, like TJ said. Now you take chances because the worst thing is you get touched. You might touch them. It's a 50-50 chance. So back in our day you didn't want to get touched so it allowed for bigger points in out traps, draws, motions. Yeah, I mean it's crazy.
Speaker 3:I always, always tell people we change when. When I grew up, we never took paddles or shields or noodles or had the person kick us and practice blocking like it was. We just didn't play. It wasn't about that. I wanted to make you miss, hit afterwards, change the angle, stop your attack from getting close and kick. And now we practice blocking. We practice the foot, not getting contact on a chest guard, and we encourage it. Good, keep it away, shut it down, close it off, make sure it doesn't slide. So now, if your goal is to block and be in space to touch afterwards, then do you have to? I guess my question is I love motion and movement. Let me start there. I do a lot of motion and movement-based training. I do it for warm-up, I do it for cool-down, I mix it in. But I guess my question would be to you, coach do you need it? Do you think it's a necessity in the game?
Speaker 2:Does that make you that much better, you an advantage in the long haul? What do you think that fits in now? I think you have to look at it. Go ahead, coach, I'm sorry, no, no, go ahead. So here's two dynamic players right which we know, both of them.
Speaker 3:I mean, obviously we get it he fought the same on electronics, though yeah, you can right, but so I mean, you know, this is he fought the same.
Speaker 3:He was special, he was different, that was his, that was his thing, like. But he fought the same on electronics and regular chess cards and sometimes it was amazing and you watch him run the whole tournament and then sometimes it's like you know, some Russian guy comes on with a long foot and he just scores a billion points on him. You're like confused so I don't know, but he fought the same, both he's. He's just him.
Speaker 2:So it goes back to a fundamental look at this the escape, the enter, the recounter. I mean the level of technical superiority you have to have to be able to fight like this. You're attacking, coming down, watch this Attack, counter re-attack come back. I mean the level of movement and understanding of the game and, in real time, being able to understand how this works and how it all fits together. That's taekwondo, right.
Speaker 4:Well, anyway, we're not there, we're not there. But anyway, such is life, and that's the better question.
Speaker 2:Right, so ask. We're not there.
Speaker 4:We're not there. But anyway, such is life and that's the better question, right?
Speaker 2:So ask yourself that question. And it was a good question. Now you find yourself trying to explain what you're watching and the question I was going to ask both of you and I'll leave it for next time. Could you think of one match at the grand prix challenge final song and dance british imitation accent contest? Uh, that it was.
Speaker 2:Could you find one match in that that you would say was a a good match and you could say here's why we do, here's why we do it, here's why we do it. Is there one match that you would say because I could go back to the 88 Olympics and I could pull up eight to 10 matches that I would say here's why I think this Taekwondo is better. I could go to the 92 Olympics and not any of my matches, but I could pull a few matches from that and say here's why we do it. I could go to the 2000 Olympics. I could probably go all the way up to 2008 and say here's why Taekwondo should be like this and this is why we should reward technical and power equally, and here's how it was supposed to work. My answer is no. My answer is no.
Speaker 4:My answer is no. Okay is no. My answer is no.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 4:There was not one match that I could go for. Was there some exciting matches? Yeah, was there some crazy comebacks?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Was there some things that I, like TJ, said I'm numb to it, that I just say yeah. But if you ask me to put a match that I just show the world this is the beauty of taekwondo out there wasn't, there wasn't a match, I mean.
Speaker 2:So that's, that's, that's the same thing we call a purist, the guy that loves watching fights, but but no so that's the same thing we talk about each week, and this is why you know taekwondo has lost its way. And so my point is the original reason taekwondo mattered was we kicked better, harder and more skillfully than any other martial art, and one of the reasons I didn't do, with all respect to my point, fighting brothers I didn't do point. Fighting is I didn't want to do that yeah, it looked like this.
Speaker 2:I didn't want to do that. That wasn't what I valued. I liked kicking people hard. I liked kicking people and knocking them out if I could, and I liked that dynamic. That's why I did Taekwondo, because I thought it was effective and I thought it mattered.
Speaker 2:And then the complex nature. Dr Kaepernick, for example, when he studied at Dungsung and stayed in korea, his understanding of the technical matrix of motion, empty in full space. And when it was explained to me, then I understood why I like taekwondo. Because if you do taekwondo correctly, for every attack there is a counter, for every counter there's a re-counter. It fits like a hand and a glove. There are worse and better ones, but you can technically explain how it works and why. And once you understand that, that's why you need motion forwards, motion backwards, motion sideways, motion, this motion, that.
Speaker 2:And when you see it done, well, there was a guy to put up this video that I keep seeing on my feet on um tiktok and he says old school taekwondo challenge. And it's literally the step where you step forward, then you sidestep and hit. So you go forward to draw the attack, you sidestep and when they kick you're to the side. It's like pot of chuggy moving forward. And when you watch the, it's a beautiful step and when it's done well, it's so beautiful. And if you go like this and you step here and he round kicks you back, kick and it's. And it typifies, it exemplifies what taekwondo is an option tree. The taekwondo that I watch now and that we just watched isn't an option tree. It's a zero sum game. I kick, maybe I lift my foot up. If I lift my foot up, you lift your foot up. And whoever lifts their foot up and gets lucky scores a point. And because of the electronics and it's not yeah, that's.
Speaker 4:I mean. I just think we keep going in circles because you just said right there, it's all because of the electronics. It's not because the athletes can't do it or don't want to do it, no, they just figure out a way to score and it's all because they got to win. That's their job. Maybe, maybe, if they did what tj said. You can only kick with roundhouse kick, side kick and axing and backing. You can't do any of these other little things. Just like in boxing you can't hit with the side or the top.
Speaker 3:You gotta hit with the front of the fist. Punch right, you don't push punch like right.
Speaker 4:So unless they fix the electronics or take the electronics which they're not going to take the electronics out they're here forever. They're not going anywhere. The best thing they could do is fix it why, but why not? You said that as a statement.
Speaker 2:I know you guys always say that as a statement I'm going to tell you that there are sports where they've taken electronics away. It's not going back Because they can't score. Why?
Speaker 4:You can go back in the old days without a phone, but it's not going backwards.
Speaker 2:Why it's money.
Speaker 4:It's quote unquote fair If they fix it, if they fix the system and they can, you cannot tell me they cannot fix a system for a combative sport. They can fix it, they don't want to. They cannot fix a system for a combative sport, they can fix it, they don't want to. Too expensive to whatever it is, they can fix it.
Speaker 2:Our sport would be great if the shit worked. It would be great. They can't. The only way they can fix it is to go to a power-based system, because then all the nonsense techniques go away so you can fix. Now you can. I'm going to give you, I'll challenge you to do this, with the exception of time based sports or measurable sports like weight lifting hold on a second no, no, there are other sports gymnastics. How's it judged?
Speaker 4:I get it. It's subjective.
Speaker 2:I get it. There are a number of subjective sports that have suffered the same way.
Speaker 4:But it's different. It's different. It's different because in gymnastics, if I do a fucking 27 flips in the air land, I get more points than if you do one. That's just the way it is. And when they're that close, they're not that close. Someone is, someone is better, and it's subjective. But you're looking at techniques when you're fighting. You can't do that. I mean well you're skating you can, you can, but they're not against each other, they're not.
Speaker 3:I was having a conversation with one of our young guys and we're talking about like, like, back kicks and backspin, hook kicks and like, oh well, if up, all and back you're gonna be the same, why would I back kick and I'm like? Because your opponent made a mistake. Up-ball and back-kick are going to be the same. Why would I back-kick and I'm like? Because your opponent made a mistake? Because they came too far with their back leg and you countered it and you hit them heavy to the body.
Speaker 3:There was a purpose of back-kicking. Now we back-kick at the end of matches. We haven't done one back-kick the whole match. We back-kick just because there's more point kicks went crazy. That's why more people are going to touch to their face. Because I just got to get close enough for it to touch. I don't even have to effectively hit you anymore. It changes the concept. Everything changes. At that point I think coaching is a little tougher. Obviously, training is a little tougher. I think there are parts and bits and pieces that we put in there, but the majority of it. You can't just be one way and then negate all the little touching and stuff. You got to be able to do a little bit of both.
Speaker 4:I agree with you. We should go back to what you would call push buttons. If you have professional eyes, that do it professionally, like figure skating, like whatever gymnastics. But even then they go back and they look oh, she stepped out of bounds, oh, she completed it, oh, she didn't complete it. If we had great referees we would do it, but they don't. They don't want it, they're going to keep the electronics. It's going forward.
Speaker 4:So my thing is don't go backwards and take it away. Fix what you have. They should have fixed it. We've said this since we started this podcast. They should have fixed the referees back in 2007 and 8, because the electronics started with the Justin 2008. They should have fixed it back then, but they didn't. They went to electronics. Here we are, 8 to 12, 16, 21, 24. We're on our fifth quad 20 years almost of electric you know, not quite but of electronics. So they should fix it. I don't disagree with you. They should go to, you know, human element, but they're not going back. So my thing is fix it, fix, fix it, fix it to public.
Speaker 3:Do you think the one? Yeah, they did that with the adidas system though that was, and people were like me and each other in the clinch and punch it in the stomach and like again for, for a lack of it, we, we always create a way to kind of make it so again, it goes back to what I've said since the beginning fix the referees, you fix the sport, so the sport, so you can have a combination of both.
Speaker 2:But as soon as you take, if you can't fix the referees and you don't trust the referees either because they're inept, unable or corrupt, then you have the same problem, because you can fix the Adidas or the power-based systems by letting the referee take away illegal techniques, and you have it in all sorts of sports. By letting the referee take away illegal techniques, and you have it in all sorts of sports. If somebody takes a shot in basketball and their foot's on the line, the referee can say it was on the line.
Speaker 4:I got the fix. I got the fix. You want the fix. You go for one quad. One quad cadet and juniors and now under 21. Everything goes back to old school.
Speaker 4:Take the electronics off and let this generation of kids fight like this, from cadets to juniors to under 21. The referees you're going to need special referees for that and then you can show with your data, with your winners now that we have all that stuff that it can be done, with referees pushing the buttons, scoring it properly, and then you can reenter it into a Pan American Games or Olympic Games. You know what I'm saying? Like you could do it, because right now they say, oh, but we need these. No, no, if you're a cadet, you're a junior under 21, you fight under these rules and it's training referees. It. You fight under these rules and it's training referees. It's training a new generation of people. You'll see, those people will adapt to what you know, herb, what I know more power base, more explosion base, because referees are not going to. There was not a referee in the planet that would score a hook, kick to the back.
Speaker 4:There's not a referee in the planet that would score a little side kick in the clinch. They wouldn't even look at it, they wouldn't even flinch to it. They'd be looking for big shots immediately. The Koreans, the Iranians, the Turkish, the Americans, the Russians, brazilians, everybody would just flip the script just like that. Then you would have a base of people. You can go to the Olympic Committee and say here we are, here's how our Olympic format is going to change. When it's successful, when it looks amazing, we'll be done forever. We'll change forever.
Speaker 5:That's the only way One for president.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm going to give you guys some homework because it's over an hour, so we've got to wrap it up here in a minute. But I thought this was a good exercise All right
Speaker 4:go ahead Go.
Speaker 2:I'll give you homework later.
Speaker 4:Okay, real fast. Change two things. When is the Olympic procedure supposed to be produced for the United States?
Speaker 2:A year before the process starts. So in other words, let's say you say a year before the process starts. So in other words and there's a logical reason for that let's say that you have. You say we are going to count all the points from the past year and add them to the selection process. Had I known that, I might've competed in more or less tournaments. So you got to announce the procedures a year in advance, from before before the Olympics, first of all. Second of all, before the process starts, so that I, if you can't put you can't put previous qualifications into a current process, because had I known, then I might've gone to different things. So it's just common sense for that.
Speaker 4:So my question is TJ, because we all know there's going to be a point reset next year, right? So theoretically, shouldn't they be out right now, because then our Olympic stuff is basically January of 2028, right, believe? Well, we'll have to see. I mean, I could be wrong, but the United States is going to have to choose divisions and I would like to know how they're going to choose divisions, right? First, second, third, fourth, how they're going to choose them. They're going to have to choose athletes that can either compete in those or they just select. How are those athletes going to be selected? Will there be any, any kind of if we're in the same division and we're close in ranking or whatever? Will there be a fight out, like what are they going to be?
Speaker 4:the the metrics of this, because it's really important, because if the united states doesn't qualify two men and two women, or three men, number three and four or four and they have to get the automatic bids, like france did they're going to have to decide what categories men and women, what athletes men and women, and what are the metrics to be those persons selected.
Speaker 2:What are the most categories the US can get?
Speaker 4:Two, oh no, four, four. Every country can get four If you qualify for the ranking top five in the world. And thin fly welter heavy on both sides. That's the most, no one's ever got it.
Speaker 2:But I thought the host country automatically gets those eight.
Speaker 3:They get two and two. A full Olympic team is four people Only. Per the ranking, can you get two extra males and two extra females.
Speaker 4:If you have one qualifying. See, the United States is in a weird situation, but let's just say Brazil. Let's say we qualify one man by ranking, we only can send one more to the qualifier.
Speaker 3:Women same thing, two Same thing that's happened in Canada last time around as well with Skylar. Same thing. Skylar qualified direct, so they only have one Olympic division up for contestant there you go.
Speaker 2:So the US can get a total of eight.
Speaker 4:They could but I mean, I don't want to say all athletes would have to qualify top five.
Speaker 2:Wouldn't it make more sense for the US, if they can, to qualify guys who can make the top six?
Speaker 3:Say that again.
Speaker 2:Yes, in other words, if they have guys that can qualify, then they take those. They make those guys qualify, then they take those. They make those guys qualify, then they pick the other two that couldn't qualify.
Speaker 4:No, but you can't do that. You can't do that. What do you mean as the host country? For example, let's say you had two men that qualified. Let's just say CJ and John Haley. They both qualified top five. You're in Right, but the women were number eight, nine and ten.
Speaker 5:Right.
Speaker 4:As the host country, you can go we want these two and we're going to forfeit those other women, we don't want them. Or we can say we'll take the wild cards two and two, so when we're in the top five, also in top six, the sixth person comes in. They get it, and then, as the host country, we take the number four seat. It's a weird rule, but that's what they do.
Speaker 2:I guess my point is if you had people that If you had people that.
Speaker 3:The Olympics is the fourth seat. I never understood why the host country got a better seat or worse or worse seat, depending on what you do.
Speaker 4:France had the two number one women's seat and they went to number four.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but what I'm trying to figure out is how many. So my point is if the US can qualify two people guaranteed, or they get two people that qualify by points, they can still get Two or two, two girls, two guys basically. Yeah, but let's say two qualify on the men's side and then you have to use two of your host cards for the women. Aren't you left with two host cards for the?
Speaker 4:men? No, you can't. No, you're not understanding me. If you have, like you said, if two men qualified and two women did it, then you're out of luck. You got two choices. Two choices Keep these qualified and give those up so they can go by their ranking. Or you say we're going to give these up, we're going to pick them anyway. We're going to give them up, we're going to take them as the host country. Wild cards Right?
Speaker 4:And we come in. And since we were in the top five, somebody comes down. That was number six they get in. So that's the way you can do it. That's the only way. When you Anyway, when you're the host country, you got to take it all or nothing.
Speaker 2:So you can't get eight, you can only get a total of four.
Speaker 4:If you qualify for the ranking. You could If you got four men that qualified and four women. But if you get four men and no women, you got to choose your two.
Speaker 3:That's crazy. That means someone qualified top yeah, so wait so wait, wait, wait, rewind, cause maybe I missed that part. Just so I'm clear. For four, four males qualify all four divisions zero, women, women go donut. We're left with these four males. There's four of them. We don't get to take all four of those spots. We'd have to choose two of those spots.
Speaker 4:We'd have to choose two of those spots. We could, but then we don't take any women.
Speaker 3:I see what you're saying. So then we go two and then two, yeah, okay, okay, yeah, we're on the same page. I thought you were saying like, for whatever reason, if zero qualified. But I would say, if I said I could still send four males and go no, olympic team for women.
Speaker 4:You could.
Speaker 3:That's an option, right.
Speaker 4:Yeah, okay.
Speaker 2:We're on the same page, okay, so anyway you better be better off taking the women, cause they have a better history of meddling.
Speaker 4:So my other question was so that was election or selection procedures. I just again, we just opened a can of worms, but I think they need to be out there, cause people should know. But then my other question is well, should, if athletes are getting money as stipend, should it be, if you're on the national team and some people are getting stipends and some people aren't, up until the world championship, fair or not fair based on if you're at the academy? So if I'm an academy athlete and I'm going to the world championships, I get extra money If I'm not at the academy. I'm in California and I just happen to not be at the academy, but I'm on the national team Should I be excluded for money? No, or should I be getting it?
Speaker 2:Money. Money is. Money is given so athletes can train and there's an argument to be made that the athletes that are not at the Academy should get money more because they need the money more. But I mean, the reality is that you know they should use the Herb Perez Olympic funding model and my funding model is really easy Herb Perez Olympic funding model and my funding model is really easy. So I take a full team to a world championship or a Grand Prix Poo Bob or whatever, or the British version of America's Got Talent and I bring you. You win your first match, I pay for your hotel room. You win your second match, I pay for your hotel room. You win your second match, I pay for your plane ticket home.
Speaker 2:Here's all after the fact, you lose, yeah, you lose, your first match. I don't you owe me money for your plane ticket to the event and good luck getting home, and you don't have a hotel room to stay in, so I I at that point.
Speaker 3:I get what you're saying. I get what you're saying.
Speaker 2:I think, when we were again and maybe quote me if I'm wrong. By the way, I would have gotten home and had my hotel paid for with all my international tournaments, with the exception of one.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think at one point they were using the ranking to have people fund it too. That was also part of the process. So if you were someone that was performing at a high level or within a certain rank and obviously again we're talking about thinking ahead that number would expand now, with the number going to zero, blah, blah, blah and all those things. There's still an option for funding just through the pure ranking, but you're 100% right. Now it's again we're in the same era of I that the funding being kind of, like you said, solo to one room. It's favoritism.
Speaker 2:In other words, there's a difference between encouraging people to participate. So the olympic committee has done a lot of studies on this and the studies go like this where does money matter most? So does money matter as incentive? The answer is no. Money matters. On bubbles, kids on the bubble of performance, podium performance. That money matters because that's going to help them do things that'll make them metal potential. If you gave Joe blow, jean blow, a million dollars if they win an Olympic gold medal, it doesn't help. It doesn't help them. That's if money, if I win money. You need money to prepare, to train, train, to do whatever else. So if you have a kid who's at the academy, has no, no expenses eating bangers and mash and no expenses, then you have a kid in california and temecula and needs money to get to his training. Needs money because he needs to buy a car so he can go train. His training facility is an hour away, needs gas money and food money so that he can train six hours a day. Arguably that kid needs more because his expenses are more.
Speaker 4:That's my point. I'm just asking listen, if they have money to give to some people, shouldn't they spread it out to some of these other people, especially in this day and age? We know cadets aren't getting paid. Need-based.
Speaker 3:Juniors aren't getting paid.
Speaker 4:Need-based, Need-based and again yeah, I just I've heard to the grapevine there might be some extra money given out to people per month up until the world championship. Know that that have to pay for their own training, have to pay for their own travel, have to pay for their own, you know, remember doug lewis when he did those figures for us and he told us how much money.
Speaker 2:Taekwondo has in the bank they're, they're actually at risk of losing their 5013c status because you're as a 5013c, you can't profit and you can't bankroll money unless you show why the money's bankrolled. So if USA Taekwondo and Jay and Steve and that clown show, the last Jay and Steve is from Clerks the movie, now we have it internally If they're bankrolling that money and paying for their plane tickets to go to Korea and drink soju and eat bulgogi and they're not funding the athletes in the athletic pipeline, they're violating the 5013c's purpose and mission and actually, you know they're slick.
Speaker 4:I mean they're gonna, they're gonna put it somewhere somehow, some way. You know the fact. The matter is we know the athletes at all these levels are not getting money and most of them aren't getting paid for it, maybe the big events like world championships for seniors, of course, but you know, my question was if there's extra money, I think they should spread it to everyone, did you?
Speaker 3:say, the national team members were getting extra payment leading up to the world championships. You said they should be getting extra payment leading up to the world championships.
Speaker 4:I think that some may be getting extra. So it's not like that. It's not like you're on a national team like everyone, the entire national team. Oh yeah, for sure, for sure. Do you have tj? You know what a yolk is a yolk? A yolk no. You know what a yolk is a yolk? No, I know, I know egg yolk is I don't think that's why.
Speaker 2:Okay, so there's a yolk, and back in the day yolk was something you did to somebody. It was was like if you hooked the guy in the face for speaking out of turn. But a yoke in colloquial parlance is that. But in real life a yoke is something you put around an ox or a mule so that they can drag the plow, the plow. So as long as you allow yourself to have a yoke on which is what most members of USA Taekwondo do you're dragging the plow. So at some point, usa Taekwondo, its membership, its lifetime members, its regular members, its $50 members need to throw the yoke off. So if you continue to allow you allow them to do this, they'll to do it.
Speaker 2:It's not until america and the athletes in america say stop paying for the british coaches to live in great britain and and not coach here. Stop paying for the unsuccessful coaches here. Stop paying for the unsuccessful organization and the plane tickets of jay. I saw another picture of jay in korea eating kimchi and drinking soju at another world event. At which point are you guys going to stop paying for those plane tickets and start paying for the cadets to go perform?
Speaker 4:So we're paying for they got cameramen and stuff like that and little announcers paying. They're not paying for these kids, but anyway, we'll talk about a little bit more in the morning. We'll get more money and the award I'm going to be getting from USA Taekwondo Real quick before we go.
Speaker 3:you said someone came to you and they had a quote for you, or it says something you like a what was that. What was that?
Speaker 4:Let's end with that and then we'll. He's like I used to carry the weight of everyone's problems. I used to carry the weight of everyone's problems. I give my best advice, invest my time and take every setback in my circle personally, like I said, like I had failed them somehow, but over time I learned that people have to walk their own path. I can't take it to heart when someone chooses a road that leads to struggle. These days, I still offer support, share my philosophy and speak up when it matters, but I've let go of the responsibility of making sure everyone ends up happy. That's their job. Mine is to live with integrity, lead by example and be at peace, knowing I gave what I could.
Speaker 4:That was my guy, josh from Houston. He's a very good business gentleman, has a successful school. He does consulting for Maya. But I happened to read that today and I was like you know what? It's true man. Sometimes I think we've probably all been there. We try to solve everyone's problems. We try to help everybody. We try to give, give, give, give and sometimes we get hurt. Sometimes people turn their back on us and you know all we can do is give our advice and whatever they do, they do, you know, wish them well and and not let it, you know, take little pieces off us and just kind of move forward. You know it's kind of a I think.
Speaker 2:I think that's a great, great, great quote. Here's my version of the same thing that I tell my son and I give him this advice If you ask somebody for advice, or somebody asked me for advice, I give advice and I give it freely. I have no expectation that somebody will follow my advice, so you'll ask me for advice. If you ask me for help, now I'm invested in you. I'm fully. If I offer my help, it's because I'm investing in you and I fully expect you to listen to the help that I give you. And now I'm invested in you and I will help you achieve your goal. So when I give advice and people ask me for advice, I give it freely.
Speaker 2:If you ask me for help, that's different. I'm going to a different level and so I'm not helping USA Taekwondo. I'm advising people what to do because I've helped before and when I turn around, I'm standing there looking at myself fighting a fight that nobody else wants to fight or not willing to fight. At the point where people need help, they'll call for help and that'll be a different level. So I always encourage my son and people like you and we've had this conversation before ask for help, because then the person you're asking for help is invested in you and your success.
Speaker 2:Ask for advice. Advice is free. Take it or leave it. I don't expect you to use it or whatever, but that's the longer version of the of my my thing. So I always ask for help and not for advice, unless I don't really want help and then I will ask for advice. So, but such as this has been, this has been the warehouse 15. And I'm reminded, cause we haven't said it yet, and this is not for TJ's mother, who I love dearly, and I can't wait to go to Virginia and see her and bring her a cake of some sort.
Speaker 4:He said he's going everywhere, he don't go nowhere.
Speaker 2:You don't go nowhere I'm going. I'm going to Korea, actually, because my good friend and our colleague, dr Capner, is going to get his ninth degree. I will point out that they skipped over him for the ceremony last week, so which he is, we'll talk about another time. But some guy in the kooky one is going to be strapped to a chair when I get there, because I don't know how you disrespect dr kaepner and not invite him to his ceremony so he can dress up like I dressed up one of those funny looking uniforms.
Speaker 2:That's why dude, I'm going to watch him taking pictures. So in september, if you're bored you got nothing else to do come watch dr capner, join the ninth don club and uh, and I'm looking forward to that. But with that said, just the last thing to remind everybody of if we've said something that offended you, caused you to think, caused you to pause, question your sensibilities and your sense and purpose in life, sorry, not sorry. This has been the warehouse 15. We are out today and tj. One last thing before we go, I will take two of those treadmills and stair masses that you're selling on late night tv with that headgear. We are out. Tj's mom, sorry, sorry later peace.