Masters Alliance
9th Dan BlackBelt and Olympic Gold Medalist Herb Perez visit with the best and brightest to bring clarity to the future of Martial arts.
Masters Alliance
When Champions Speak Truth to Power
Three Taekwondo veterans unpack controversial developments in the martial art with raw honesty and deep expertise, promising "Sorry, not sorry" to anyone who might be offended by their candid perspectives.
• The new 3-2-1 scoring system being tested at the German Open eliminates spinning technique bonus points
• Video reviews for head kicks being removed, raising concerns about fairness and referee influence
• USAT's talent identification camp selection process lacks transparency and seemingly overlooks accomplished athletes
• Questions about whether performance truly matters in elite Taekwondo or if politics take precedence
• The evolution from "old school" power-based scoring to electronic-based systems has fundamentally changed the sport
• Elite athletes from any era would likely adapt and excel in different systems
• Today's Taekwondo might not attract the same talent as other martial arts due to its evolution
For new Peak Taekwondo apparel including leggings and tights, check our website to order your pair and support the podcast.
yo sorry, not sorry. We ain't even trying to apologize.
Speaker 2:Deal with it welcome to the warehouse 15. And we are here again with my comrades in arms and got to start with, as it says in the beginning of the podcast sorry, not sorry. If you're offended, change the channel, move on, do something else, because life is way too short for us to waste time with soft, as mr coach moreno would say, shaman like type people. So with that said, let me open up. Last week was was tj, so'm going to go with Mr Mr Mr Juan Moreno, coach Moreno, what's up?
Speaker 3:Silver line. Yeah, I changed my name to Silver.
Speaker 2:Why did you change it to?
Speaker 3:Silver, because I'm just trying to follow the line. I think you know I don't want to steal his little phrase, but you know, some of us have to own our failures. You know what I'm saying? Some of us own our failures. We can't walk around with a gold medal swinging around our neck all the time, anyway, no good. But listen, I'm excited. I think we got a bunch of cool things to talk about, some funny stuff, maybe out the box, but yeah, it should be a good conversation, but it's actually raining here in Miami today. It's raining here in Miami today. It's kind of weird, but I got testing today at my school, so I'm super excited. But yeah, how about you, tj? What's up with you?
Speaker 1:Everything good, Everything's good. Like you said, it's raining. Here too, it's been raining for the last four days here like nonstop. Today is light, but it's just raining and raining and raining, messing up my tennis skills and my tennis days.
Speaker 3:Man. What? What is this Chili?
Speaker 2:season mango. I got the chili for you, TJ, and the mango for Mr Moreno.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but everything's good. Actually, speaking of testing, I had a chance last week to test my three first white belts. I got three white belts at my school. Yeah, pretty cool, kind of cool. They love it. I like that. They like it so much and I think I got a good batch. The first group is a good batch. The parents are super laid back and chill.
Speaker 3:They let the kids work.
Speaker 1:One kid never wants to leave, so it's exciting times and fun stuff, though, but you test them for yellow belt, will I test them for?
Speaker 3:yellow belt.
Speaker 1:You said you tested them oh yeah, for their white belts. I don't give them their white belt, so I made them do like the basic stuff to get their white belts and understand like sliding, steppy, standing, you know damn.
Speaker 3:Mine's like yes, sir, no sir, Take your shoes off and bow, oh, here's your white belt.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we just got into last week we did a I called it just did high block and X block, like I'm kind of doing I told you guys before a little bit more sport-based Taekwondo curriculum. So just kind of building into something something cool, something different, something cool, something different. It was exciting, it was kind of cool. They were happy. I got my new peak summer uniforms and they're walking around.
Speaker 3:You know you want to wear one. I know you want to wear one. Let's talk about real fast some of our new apparel. Someone mentioned you, someone called you out, tj.
Speaker 1:You Okay, okay, okay.
Speaker 3:Hey Young, so let's talk about about you. You got an event coming up this weekend this weekend we have our second it doesn't matter if you have an event coming up. You know what? Because you tj did you get an invite? Did you get a plane ticket tj?
Speaker 1:hotel room. I just heard about it like unfortunately unfortunately, unfortunately the tournament has not raised to a level.
Speaker 2:Uh, the tournament happens is the second year and, to be honest, the reason no, no, no, no.
Speaker 1:Don't try to talk your way through this one. No, let me just tell you. Let me just tell you what's up.
Speaker 2:Not a plane ticket not a text message, not an email well, I got coach moreno coming in like two weeks later. I gotta save money for that and another, not invite for me.
Speaker 2:Well, I got to bring you out. It's the Legacy Tournament. And now you're going to feel bad after I tell you why. Because I started it because of our good friend and recently passed away, jimmy Kim. He had his tournament every year and it was suggested to me that I pick up the legacy of a gold medalist having a tournament in honor of both jimmy and and the idea of the olympic thing. So last year I had a good friend of mine, amatis pourion, decided to help me run a tournament because I have no idea zero, zero idea on how to run a tournament. She came in, her people came in, did everything for me last year and this is the second year where they'll be doing everything again. Hopefully next year we'll actually make enough money so I can bring in um tj. Are you coming in? Do you come in by car or do I have to actually get your plane ticket?
Speaker 1:I'm superman, I fly it, my I greyhound.
Speaker 2:If you want to come in on greyhound I. I mean, I've got a Greyhound ticket sitting here waiting with your name on it. I'm going to try to get you a straight shot. I think they have those. If they don't, you might have to stop in Peoria. Do you know where Peoria is?
Speaker 1:No I don't.
Speaker 2:It's right next to Susquehanna. I'll take the business class ticket.
Speaker 1:It's okay, no. Middle school first class ticket.
Speaker 2:I'm like, oh, it must be nice to be king, king Tony, so he's learned from the best how you get treated, the way you allow people to treat you, but anyway, that is the legacy Tony this week.
Speaker 1:I like that one. That's a great statement.
Speaker 3:That's it so today.
Speaker 2:TJ, I'm going to treat you, not teach you. I'm going to treat you with the utmost respect deserving of your. What is that shirt you're wearing while I'm saying this?
Speaker 1:thing, don't disrespect the shirt. Come on, what is it? Come on, what is it? Come on. I'm not even going to explain it to you.
Speaker 2:Is that Bongok, bongok, that movie, the Thai movie, what is it?
Speaker 3:It's Izzy from the UFC. He's a midway champion. Oh so he's got a bow and arrow and he's letting it go because the guy that he fought that's his thing. Every time he knocks somebody out, he always shoots them with an arrow.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I saw him get carried out of the ring. I saw this cat get knocked out.
Speaker 3:So him with an arrow, yeah, but I saw him get carried out of the ring, I saw this cat get knocked out. So this is crazy. It's a crazy story because he loses to this Brazilian guy and this little kid the son comes in the ring and is kind of like making fun of him or something like that. So the next time they fight, izzy KOs this guy and Izzy goes up to the cage, looks at the kid and just goes and like dies and then he shoots him with the arrow Like no mercy. No mercy. What do you think about?
Speaker 2:that Me? No, no, I think you got to carry yourself with respect. No, don't vanquish the warrior.
Speaker 1:It would have been tempting in that moment, though, because if you just saw the little boy like basically imitated him getting knocked out the first time and like kind of fell on the floor and kind of like laughing about it Because I think, what do?
Speaker 2:you mean the kid Is the one with the little kid doing it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the little kid did it first and then he went back and knocked out his dad and then did the same thing.
Speaker 3:But now they're friends Listen they're friends, they're always friends. They're done fighting, but I don't know I say it I I would have. I probably wouldn't have done it because I know how I've been in a lot of weird situations that I've let it go. But when I saw it I give. I give him credit because izzy's like nah man, you wanna, you want the bull, you get the horns. Homie, I don't care if you're a little kid, big kid woman, did you, when you were competing?
Speaker 1:when you were competing, did you have a lot of people that you would say were your friends, like none? Yeah, that's what I. It's a different world, right? Yeah, like people like, like.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, in the same division from different places not many people that can't say I was even friendly with. I had a couple guys that was friendly with, but friends no dinner, no lunch, no I probably had one.
Speaker 1:But yeah, yeah, the same division thing used to be a little bit different. Holding areas were a little bit different, nobody, teams were a little bit different. I'm not sure even like the teams were willing to cross lines because someone else on your team had, you know, lineups with the other person.
Speaker 3:So it was, it was all out war, but that was fun yeah, yeah, hey, off topic, before we get into some take on those stuff. Today I got a question for you, both of you guys. I I know, tj, you don't have kids yet. How old is your daughter? 15 or 16?
Speaker 2:15.
Speaker 3:15. Let's just in the future. She's 17, 18. She goes on her first real date with a boy. Picture up dinner, whatever. Tj same thing, hypothetically. Do you expect your daughter to pay half, or what do you think? Do you expect your daughter to pay half? Or you think the, or what do you think should happen?
Speaker 1:with the bill for the, for the, for the, the date for the dinner yeah, for the date not for the hotel room.
Speaker 2:It's not that kind of date. Tj not for the hotel room. No, no, no, I know, I know I'm just saying like you know, this is all hypothetical and stuff. My daughter's never going to date, by the way, and then she's never turning 16, so just so we're all clear pathetically nah there's.
Speaker 1:I mean, I come from a generation where that was that was normal. Like you, you, you pay for the first date and I know now it's outrageous because you got people giving you the opposite. Well, these girls want to go to all these festy restaurants and do this. Then I think you pick the restaurant, if that's the issue. If it, you pick the restaurant. But it's a cordial thing to do. It's almost the right thing to do Because, I mean, think about it, it's you asking a girl on a date, right? You're asking them to go to have dinner with you or lunch with you.
Speaker 3:You're inviting them. I wasn't even going to that point, but you're right, if I invite you to my house, I'm probably making the food. I haven't said hey, what are you going to my house? Oh, by the way, bring this, this and this, but anyway, I posed that question to somebody on Facebook recently and we go back and forth on some social issues.
Speaker 2:Was this a Taekwondo question or just a date question?
Speaker 3:This is a date question. I saw this, I. I saw this, I saw it somewhere else and I sent a clip to somebody. I said what you're thinking about this? Is it male toxicity? Is that the word Toxicity? Or you know being chivalry, you know having some chivalry? And he, this man, said absolutely not, I don't need anybody. You know paying for my daughters or whatever. And I was like I just was calling it being a gentleman. I'm not saying that you need to pay for them, but I'm just saying first date, first date, right out the box. I invite you. Like man, that should be, it should be on me, I agree. I agree.
Speaker 1:So you go on the first date with all anticipation to pay, right, you're going to pay, like it's normal, and she pops up and was like no, no, no, no, I got the bill. Do you let her pay?
Speaker 3:You know what? Personally I probably would not. But I can understand that, I can understand that. But I'm going the opposite, like expecting it, like do you have $50, sweetie, you know, I mean, that's what I'm saying.
Speaker 1:Because you know what? I don't think I would ever. There's no way you could ever ask like, hey, you got half of this.
Speaker 3:I don't think I could ever get to that point. This thing that I was talking about yes, that's what it was, and I'm just like listen again.
Speaker 3:I asked you guys off the air. Tj, I've been out with you a billion times. Same thing with you, young TJ, you could probably count on the top of your one hand how many times I've asked you to pay. You know I've been with you a million times and you've never said hey one, you got this one. You know it's just, sometimes there's a friendship thing or a gentleman thing or just a courteous type of thing, but I just I wasn't following that logic right there, so I don't know, just kind of off topic.
Speaker 2:I don't. I'm a little bit, even older school than that. I don't think you ever not pay. So I think you know we come from a culture and I was speaking yesterday I had dinner with Simon Rhee from best and amazing Great, and then James Liu, also um, you know, corey, choreographer and performer extraordinaire, and the two of them just a wealth of knowledge, and we were talking about, um, culture and the way you act and the things you do and the things you say. And then, you know, I told, I always tell them the same thing I say to people if I meet somebody who doesn't understand the culture of what we do and how we do it, I let them, you know, they'll tap me on the shoulder and say, hey, what's up, herb, and I'll look at them. Nice to meet you. And I walk on the other side of the room and I never talk to him again.
Speaker 2:You know, with seminars or whatever it is, and I went out to dinner with them last night, really nice thai restaurant here in san francisco. They're here for a beauty contest that they're judging, and we were talking about this very thing and I and at the end of the day you either understand the rules of what we do and how we do it and you behave accordingly or you don't, and if you don't, that's okay. Then you're not part of our world. That's the way it is. So if I met, if I met a young man, um, that was going to date my daughter, uh, and he wasn't picking up a check, he wouldn't be dating my daughter. A second date, you know, it's just the way this guy was the opposite this guy was the opposite.
Speaker 3:He's like if he, if this guy's doing that and you know can't let my kid and he's like that's not the kind of man I want him to be and that's good, then he's, that's good for him.
Speaker 2:But I, I, you know, on the other hand, I, I, I would prefer to pay for both of their dates, like, if that's the issue, and you got a, and there are times in my life where I was young and I had money issues. I was in the band and I ran out of money and you know we're waiting for the next gig and you know, whatever, and that's life.
Speaker 3:But I didn't go on a date yeah, I didn't go on a date.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know you'll go on a date unless, whatever invite somebody over, you know, and it is what it is. So, tj, we've been on a lot of dates together. I never made you pay for those dresses you wore, you, you you. I paid for those special ones. See, there I go.
Speaker 1:I couldn't help myself and I know you're gonna have to pop off you're gonna have to pop off in a moment. I told you one day it's I'm gonna save it.
Speaker 2:You know what it is. You're gonna say something nice and then I'm gonna lose my mind. Did you, did you?
Speaker 1:I don't know how you hate on this guy.
Speaker 2:Shout out to did you make that shirt? Did you buy that shirt? You had it made, like you went through the trouble like someone gave it to me. I would never is it because you look like him? Is that you?
Speaker 1:that was the reason why it's. It's the energy he embodies. It's the. It's the killer nck embodies. It's the. It's the. Pick yourself up and go back at it again. It's the. Don't let nobody break your spirit, I like.
Speaker 2:Let me ask you I'll ask you one question before we get on to the next topic, which is who do you fear more? A guy like that? Or do you fear a guy who shows no emotion, that just comes in, does his job? You can't read his face, he's just serious because, um, I remember watching most of us fight. I don't remember us like overly celebrating, being boisterous before we fought and certainly not after. At least you know not me for sure. So I think that's the guy you fear more. Like it's funny, because as we all get older, the stories of who we were and what we did get bigger and better than they really were.
Speaker 2:But everybody I talk to, or people when I see comments about me, they're like dude, that guy was brutal, he was heartless, he was mean and I wasn't any of that. I just had a certain way I approached. Like you said, we don't have friends when we fight. I didn't boast at the end of a fight. I knocked the guy out, I looked at him, I went back to my line, waited for the ref to raise my hand and I left the arena. I didn't go, you know, and none of this stuff either. So anyway, just something to think about.
Speaker 1:I think that's a great question. I think it's a generational thing. I mean, when I started Taekwondo, I mean to be honest with you we were taught to show no emotion. We were taught it's like you guys flash legs and you fall. You lost, like you didn't get to fall, you didn't get to hurt. If you guys bang shins the person, you look at each other and you see, you got hurt.
Speaker 1:Did you start with Patrice? I started at Kim's Kar. He's the one that kind of drove me to do the Olympic sparring stuff, so but I think I think that's a. That's another thing and I agree with you it's the person that you don't know, the person that you can't read, is the scariest person in the room.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean, the ones that they give you nothing, and that's why sometimes I watch some of these, these current athletes or just athletes in general. I feel like they're share a little too much. It kind of takes that appeal and that scariness away from them. You know what I mean, um, but I think I talked about it last week, about wanting to feel uh, what's it called? Um, relatable, I think, as a fighting sport. I don't think you ever want to be relatable. I want you to think I'm the scariest person in the world. I want you to think I'm willing to do things. You're not to win, you know, but that's, I think that's a generational thing.
Speaker 1:I think that's a we, when we talk about old school type, window mentality type thing. We didn't, yeah, we couldn't. If I knocked someone out that I was better than I, would never give them the satisfaction of me acting like it was a big deal. That's where it starts. I like I just if it was. You know you have your big moments against big people but like, yeah, you celebrate those big moments against big people but, like you said, ones the people you knock out or you just kind of beat to a pulp that you knew going in they weren't on your level. I don't think it's the proper etiquette to go out there and try to showboat and spin and jump around and do all this extra stuff to close out a match when you're up 13 points. It's silly to me.
Speaker 3:I have a saying. I mean, obviously it's a long time ago and you know, again, we all have our moments where we're like, yeah, whatever, you know you're right, I'm kind of closing my eyes and thinking about I don't remember you doing. I don't remember you doing that at all, and I've had a couple moments where I've, like you know, kind of given some good energy, but I used to have a saying with my, you know, with my guys, and I remember I had this one athlete, one of my best young female athletes, and she made the junior team.
Speaker 3:She has some bad luck, injuries, whatever, so she finally makes the team. And when she made the team I was like yeah, and she walked up to me, she's like act like you've been here before and walked right past me.
Speaker 1:I was like oh, you know who it is Alexis Martinez, right. You know who it is Alexis Martinez, right. That's funny. Only could be Alexis.
Speaker 3:It's funny because she ended up winning the Pan Ams and I coached her against my wife. My wife was coaching in 2007. But anyway, you're right To your point, TJ. Act like you've been there before. I mean, we've got to celebrate the victories and stuff like that, but maybe it's a little bit too much nowadays, people celebrating not really important victories. So I don't know, I think this kind of segues us into maybe another topic. I want to go a little bit down the road, but let's get on this big new thing right now. Tj, what's that? This trial of the new points 3-2-1.
Speaker 2:What do you think?
Speaker 3:No headgear, I'm sorry. No headpoint reviews.
Speaker 1:What do you?
Speaker 3:think I mean I'll say this off the air because he'll go nuts Once again. I think it's protecting some of the referees. It's taking things out of their hands and I've heard that, you know, the video review on these extra technical points, when they don't come up, takes too much time. I would agree. But then I go back why is it taking too much time when these guys should have pushed the button? That's when they spin. They should be pushing the button, no matter what. If it scores, it scores. If it doesn't, it doesn't. It's no heart, no foul. But if you do nothing and it happens to hit, this is where we have the problem. So I think it's another protection to referees, which I think is a problem. The 3-2-1, I saw somebody.
Speaker 2:Sorry, I had to go off for a second. I'm back. I have a Jeep that I bought when my son was born and Jeeps have the world's worst angled windshield for rocks, and every time I lend my car to a staff member or somebody, they always somehow manage to get hit with a rock.
Speaker 1:So it is what it is, you better pay them more.
Speaker 2:Dude, I pay them a lot. I, you know I pay them. You can't, I don't want. I love all my staff members, the. You know, it is what it is.
Speaker 1:We were talking about the new scoring system where they're going back to three, two and one points during the action and then no head reviews.
Speaker 2:I think you said explain, explain it to, explain it to me.
Speaker 1:So one point for punch, two points for body, three point for head. No bonus points for turning to the body or to the head. Oh really, yeah, they're gonna try it, it's a german open. They're gonna test it at the german open it's it.
Speaker 1:It's interesting for two reasons, because I think I'm very big on like how did we get here in the first place? You know, we went from that system because they wanted to be more exciting, they wanted more points on the board, they wanted to be more spectator friendly. And now we're using the same reasoning to go back to three, two, one, so that the spectators can understand. And then they say it's because the video reviews, like that's where I get. It's just that we're just bouncing back and forth. At this point, I think the worst part about it is go ahead.
Speaker 3:No, no go.
Speaker 1:I think the worst part about it is the no head reviews and they say, no, it takes too long. I think I talked to you a while back, coach, and I said I would propose something that they had someone at the table that only watched for head kicks Only. Your only job is to watch the fight for a head kick and if it doesn't score immediately, they can go like this, or they can go like this, and once they go like this, if the, if the coach thinks they it touch, then the coach can use this card, but it shouldn't take that long. Some of them are bad, some of them, I guess how do I go because I can look at the other side of it too, because we've all seen the spins and the touches to the helmet where we go back and watch a video review for the toe. I don't think we should be doing that.
Speaker 1:I think that's an issue.
Speaker 3:I think you got two things. I mean, you're right, I find it very interesting that they're going backwards because they haven't walked anything backwards, right. I mean when there was only a few opens with G1s and G2s, and now there's G2s everywhere. They have, you know, the points from 1 and 2 to 1, 2 and 3 to 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5, you know, to the cup. They haven't walked anything back. So for me, having them walk this back is really, really interesting.
Speaker 3:I've been told it's because of the video review. I've also been told they showed me data. They showed me data like, for example, on a day of competition it was like 1.6% of the points scored, of the kicks scored were because of somebody spinning, and then the second day it was less than 1%. So what they were saying is it's not like people are doing it anyway. People are doing it at the end when they're losing by four points spinning, kick to the head and they're getting what you said, tj, a scrape. They're doing the version of a Hail Mary and hoping that someone catches it in the end zone and then they win the match.
Speaker 3:So in some senses I go. I'm glad that they're not going to give these five points and let someone after I bet I had two body kicks and a punch. And then all of a sudden, with one second left, you, you do a spin hook, kick more in there, the clinch and it wraps on my head and you win the match. Like that's just crazy, because it's five, five and you win the tiebreaker. I really don't like that. So I can get behind that, but the video review unacceptable. Unacceptable because we see the scratches, but we also see people's headgear get in the other ring and nothing goes off. I mean, we see people's face get smashed and nothing. So if I had an error.
Speaker 3:Go ahead.
Speaker 1:If.
Speaker 3:I had an error, I would error that.
Speaker 1:Sorry, I think this will be interesting.
Speaker 2:You told him to go ahead. Then he started to go ahead and then you interrupted him.
Speaker 1:Thank you, you and interruptions are crazy Once again. Second craziest thing you've said today no, I was going to say I guess when you say you know, it kind of covers the referees. I think it gives them we talk about power I don't like using the word power to the referees, but I think it gives them more options to affect the match. You know what I mean? Because what's going to happen is someone's going to get nipped and it's going to be the deciding factor and they're going to count and you're going to see someone get rocked and there's going to be no count and everyone's going to lose their minds. It's inevitable.
Speaker 3:So they're doing this at the. What they're going to do is they're going to try this at the at the German Open, and they're going to just kind of keep the data. And the data is going to say I always use this, I say this all the time and when people go, the data says this the data. You can use data any way you want. In baseball, if somebody is a 300 hitter, they are a successful hitter when you're talking about baseball, but if you think about and me and you want to talk about it, they struck out seven times and they got three hits. Like you know what I'm saying, like you can, data can go whatever you want. I think they're going to make the data show that this is, it functioned, it was efficient, it worked. Everybody was, you know, could follow it, everybody could follow it. And I'll be curious, tj, if they try to get this in the world championship If not the world championships, the Grand Prix, and I'm going to tell you why.
Speaker 1:Don't forget about the punching. Oh yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:Because they announced in the beginning of the year TJ, that Dato was going to be in the world championships. And guess what? They just walked it back. Now it's KPMP. Imagine you're Dato. Again, I'm not a fan, but imagine you're Dato and you've been marketing at this and building more programs, whatever for the world championships and all of a sudden they pulled it. But they had their reason.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that folly at the grand, the grand prix challenge in Charlotte was a weird one, like I know we talked about. I won't go too far back, but to to say they changed the settings on their own because they didn't like what it looked like or how it was scored. I mean, if they're right or they're, if they're right or wrong, it doesn't matter. I think that that's not a conversation. It's a conversation you have to have and not something you just do on your own. You know what I mean. But this is the same thing. Wasn't the last Olympic Games supposed to be Dato and they switched to the KPMP? We've seen this before. This is the second time they switched it out.
Speaker 3:No, no, it was still up in the air at the time. Remember, dato was the only one that was with Swiss timing, and in the Olympic games, your, your, your configuration of your, your programs have to work with Swiss timing, which is, you know, governs all the Olympic sports and track and field and everything, and at the time, dato's, the old system, was the only one that matched up with it. Since then, kpap has elevated their, their systems, and now there's two. So, um yeah, but it's a big. I guess my point is it's a big change. I've never seen them walk it back like that in the past. And so now for them to do that, now for them to be talking about doing a test event at g rated event, I mean in the same year, I tell you what. There's some stuff coming down.
Speaker 1:I mean I said I want to be there someone's laughing at me like why would you want to be? I was like I want to be in the middle of the junk because it's going to be an interesting one and I know we were just talking about it. But, like, the punches are electronically scored, now Scored and then confirmed by the referees, right, that's what it is.
Speaker 3:Okay, we can't dispute a body shot, right, we see some bombs and we can't go oh, that should have went off. Or a scrape, oh, that wasn't a point. So if we're being consistent, that's what they're going to say about the headgears hey, you can't judge the body, so you can't judge the head. But everybody was saying, yeah, but the head is different, because when you see someone get kicked in their face, move. How do you explain that to the audience? So now let's go to the punches. Let's go to the punches.
Speaker 3:There's nothing else in Taekwondo where you have to get confirmation that it's a point. If that was the case, 90% of the body points wouldn't be scored. Right, the spinning kick. But again, the spinning kick's done. Now, that's not true. They're not confirming that it's scored, they're confirming that it got the technical points. So all of a sudden, again you said I'm going to say protecting referees Like what if there's a big, giant punch and it registers and the referees don't push it Right? I mean, think about that. Now we're deciding a match Because someone decided that punch wasn't good enough. The chess picker said clearly it was good enough. Man, we're all over the place right now.
Speaker 1:I think they're going to follow the board, though, because I think the point of doing that is like so, back when they I think it was German Open also when they ran those Adidas Ho-Goose a long long time ago the pressure was the same thing. People got into the clinch and were just punching each other in the stomach, and it was just going on. So what's going to happen is, I think they're going to watch the board. Someone's going to do something weird. Watch the board, it'll light up and they'll confirm it. I don't think they're. I think what's supposed to happen is they're supposed to see if it's a legit punch, right, yeah.
Speaker 3:Because they don't want that, because you're right, the flip side of it. So they can't do it, so they got to confirm it. I get the logic, but let's just go. Let's say no one's doing that crap. Let's say people are just boom and it's good one. Boom, it goes up, but the referees go. Yeah, I don't think so. Not today buddy, not today Iran, not today Russia. You know what I'm saying? I don't know man. We're doing confirmation. We're no headshots review. It's wild.
Speaker 2:What's reviewable now? By what can you review by video?
Speaker 3:In this event, it would only be deductions that you receive. I can't review any deductions. I didn't hold, I didn't do this, I didn't do that, I didn't do it, and also on the other person kicking after break, falling or going out of bounds.
Speaker 2:So it's not really about. So let me just give you a historical on the scoring system, because it wasn't created by Koreans. It wasn't created by anybody. It was, in fact, opposed by the Koreans. It was created by Dr Kaepner and I when we were the vice chairs of the membership of the technical committee and I was chair of the education committee and he was vice chair of the technical committee. So the idea was Koreans like to punish. That's what their methodology is. They don't understand rewarding, they understand punishment. So they spent a lot of time educating people. They had no idea.
Speaker 2:So my point was if you want to and this is still valid if you want to see more complex techniques, the only reason if I unless I have an amazing, not a bond there's no reason for me to throw one. And if technically, there's no reason, because if I can score a round kick and it's the same point as a, not a bond there's no reason for me to throw one. And if, technically, there's no reason, because if I can score a round kick and it's the same point as a, not a bond why would I take that risk? Unless it was just for a totally strategic reason, why would I throw a back kick against a round kick, Because round round kick almost inevitably unless you have an amazing back kick scores and um. So the idea was if you want to see better technique, you want to see high level techniques reward it, just like you do in diving. If you do a certain dive you get a 3.5, whatever 1.5, whatever you jump in the pool. You know you jumped in the pool. In this situation. That meant if you round kick the body, that should be worth a certain amount of points. If you don't want to value punches because they frustrate the game, that should be worth less.
Speaker 2:If you want to see in a situation, round kick, back kick, for example, round kick is a lot easier. It doesn't require you don't lose sight of the target, you don't have to do whatever. Back kick is the right counter. So in that situation, if I round kick you and hit you and you back kick me and hit me, it should be one to two. I get the superiority on that because it's a harder technique to do and it's the idea of taekwondo. If you kick the face and you wanted to see more face kicks, that's why we rewarded face kicks with more. That's why we rewarded face kicks with more. The idea of adding the bonus points for spinning, that wasn't our idea. We were really simple. That was after us. Ours was you want to see this? Reward this.
Speaker 1:Now you were saying two points for back kick.
Speaker 2:You were saying If you round kick Back, then we weren't even saying that. We were saying round kick back, kick anything to the body. One point, yeah same, not a bond. That came later. Face kicks were higher. My point was one for a punch, two for a body, five points for a kick to the face. You want to see face kicks?
Speaker 3:Make them five points and then you'll see more face kicks, but you guys never envisioned a scratch being five points.
Speaker 2:No, no, this is based on the old system of scoring. So now we were able to get one, two and three, and the one really didn't matter because the 1 never happened. Nobody was scoring punches, so you really were looking at 2 and 3. Somewhere in that mix there was a floor Early on it was 1 and 2.
Speaker 3:1 and 2, yeah, early on.
Speaker 2:And this was when we left the room because Daywon Moon love him. David Moon from Mexico went in and didn't do it. He was, he was outvoted at the technical committee, so he went into the meeting and didn't put forward our proposal. I stood up and said I'm sorry, that's not what we voted on. I got up and left the room.
Speaker 3:I think three two, one, I'm not even I'm not going to say I support it. Three two, one, I'm not even I'm not gonna say I support it, I'm gonna say I don't support I. I'm I'm curious to see because it could bring back you're right um, people doing real back kicks and real stuff.
Speaker 2:You know yeah, but let me, let me ask you a question. Does?
Speaker 3:it work does it?
Speaker 2:does it? Does it really work? This is, this is the equivalent of like I just had. I left for a minute because my windshield got hit with a rock right right and on a Jeep, and this is a great example. Actually, now that I think about it, jeeps historically get broken windshields and chips because the angle of the windshield is just wrong. It's too straight. So you have choices you can continue to fix the chips or you can replace the windshield, but it doesn't matter. You're dealing with the symptom and not the cause. You would be better off to get a different car because you can't fix the windshield on it. This is the same story here we're trying. This is again an attempt to deal with a leaky bottle that's got a hole in the bottle in the bottom and you're changing the covering of the bottle. Should we have a blue bottle or a red bottle? Should we put a different sticker on it? So this I don't see it how this solves the problem, as long as you're using the same scoring system.
Speaker 1:I guess my question to you because you just said, you said what did you just say? You said that if you want to see more face kicks, I don't, I don't. I guess that's the part I lose. I, I don't, I don't, I guess that's the part I lose. I don't vibe on that part, like I know we always talk about a little bit. But you hit someone in the face because their hands were down. You spun on them because they're off. The line was too slow. You made them miss because they started to. So there was reasoning behind doing it. I don't every since we started trying to change our game to appease the crowd, or because we want to see something more, or because we wanted to be. This is where I think we got all mixed up. That wasn't your mission.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but you're not wrong. But you're wrong, and only in this sense. You're thinking of the current dynamic. We're not talking about the face kicks that you're seeing now.
Speaker 1:We're talking about the face kicks that when, back in the day, but even before, but even before but even before to change or do something, because if you want to see the question is opposed do you want to see more face kicks? Obviously, because it's more exciting. We want more knockouts, we want to be this, this sport or this art or whatever you call it. People got knocked out because they sucked, because they didn't have their hands up, because they made bad choices, because they went too short. But that was why people got knocked out. That's why you knock people out. Right, it wasn't because you got more points to knock them out. You, you had to do what you did because you saw the opportunity to knock them out. So my issue, my thing, is when we started changing the game to appease whether it be the crowd, whether it be the Olympic committee, whether it be whoever's sitting in a room with the conversation, is where we went wrong.
Speaker 1:I used to fight guys all the time. That I knew for a fact. If I got to the third round with this guy and it was 1-0, I might be in trouble. I might be in trouble. I might be in trouble because that was his style. He's going to stay back, he's going to control the match, he's going to limit the action and then in the third round. He's going to try to steal and I knew this going in because we fought a bunch of times. So I knew I had to be up by three points going into the fourth round. I knew if I'm up by three, up by four when it was one going well, if you want to see more face kicks, there's a lot of people that weren't flexible back in the day either. You know what I mean. There are a lot of people that just weren't flexible but they beat people and people that were more explosive, faster.
Speaker 1:I'm going to use an example and I'm going to say I'm going to say I think Tim Thackery, for example, was a good. I think he was good. I think he was good, but I think his skill set was limited. But he got out there with people that did a lot more than him and he came back home winning because he had a style that worked for him and things that worked for him. He didn't go I got to go kick to the face. I got to go do this. I got to go do that. Because why? Because they're going to more points for it. I think that's where we went wrong and I know maybe that's not the best example, but I hope you guys get my point.
Speaker 3:Listen, I think in the old days again I want to talk about some old school, new school, because someone mentioned it, but I don't want to get there yet. But just to wrap this up, look at 3-2-1, I think people will do things for the right reasons. Like, for example, again, like, for example, you know, again you said, why would I back kick if I can just roundhouse kick? Because the guy comes off the line to you and you cover, you back kick, or you back kick at a timing just because it's the right thing to do. Or you know what I did a back hook kick because his hands were down and so I spun hook kick.
Speaker 3:So I think in a weird way, this could take away from some of the fluff of Taekwondo and maybe bring some old school, better like what we've talked about stepping and movement and trapping and thought processes through a fight, versus standing there and pick your leg up or getting in the way. So I'm curious to see how it's going to be. I don't like the punch thing and I don't like the video review thing or non-video review thing for the head, but I think this could be good and I think it's going to mess up some people that try to steal the match at the end with a five-point spin-ho kick in the clinch that barely touches the head, or get in the clinch and do a little face shot.
Speaker 1:Thinking about that most of the time, like back, like back when it was the, the point system was equal, or one and two and three. Whatever we're talking about, most of the time, you would never get to the clinch and throw a back. Kick in the clinch never, you would never do it like it. Just. You would never do it. You wouldn't create enough power. You wouldn't. You would put yourself in a worse position because now your back's turning, you get whacked in the face, can I?
Speaker 2:say something and I'll let you finish, no worries, half the techniques that I see being done in tournaments today. I would have been embarrassed to throw. I wouldn't have thrown them in a tournament anywhere. I did that goofiness when I sparred five-year-olds. I'm embarrassed for the players who have to denigrate themselves and their abilities to do inside-outside round kick to the body, back hook, kick to the body. I wish and pray to baby Jesus that one of these guys would show up at my school for a seminar and try to back hook kick me in the body. I pray to baby Jesus that they would try. Half this nonsense. I'm embarrassed for the players and anyone that opens their mouth about it. You should be embarrassed to have to do this and there should be a revolution starting now to fix this. I can't use the word. I'm thinking of this, this truncated, this malint, this misformed abortion of Taekwondo that they're forced to practice right now We'll get there.
Speaker 2:Let's move on to the no, because Let me make the face before I move on. Tj back up a little bit. Back up a little bit, A little more.
Speaker 3:All right, I'm back, go ahead, no. So let's let that go go. Let's move on to the next subject. So, tj young, I know we've talked about how, you know, people are watching our, our podcast.
Speaker 3:I mean, actually, in some other countries as well. I think it's pretty cool because I think we've I can't remember, prior to this podcast, seeing so many people on social media vent or discuss their displeasure with certain events or certain organizations. And again, I'm going to say this I don't think it's a good thing that we all go around and just try to bitch about everything me included, us included but I think when people are raising valid points with facts right, I think, when people are raising valid concerns, I think it's an awesome thing. And I've noticed recently, going back a month ago with AAU. I just saw recently a big thing with USAT and Poomsae. I don't know anything about it so I can't really comment on it, but it's a hot enough topic where there's just hundreds of people that are within that group voicing their opinion.
Speaker 3:And recently we talked about this ID camp that was coming up and USAT. They actually had a talent ID ID camp and they're having a current national team training camp, which I think is amazing for them. Um, but we had pre looted, we, we had talked about that. You know what is this going to consist of and who, what are they looking for, and blah, blah, blah, blah blah. And sure enough, you know, they end up picking four athletes to, I guess, a Tier 1, which is maybe some resident level, and then some Tier 2 athletes.
Speaker 2:Who's paying for the first date?
Speaker 3:Yeah, probably SAT. But again, my point of this is it's interesting to see people on the Internet big-time coaches, big-time programs in California, big-time coaches, big-time programs in California. You know wives, you know that are coaches or national team athletes. You know saying what's going on how did these people get invited and these people didn't get invited? Or how did these people get picked and these people didn't get picked? What was the criteria? What was this? And again, there's really not an answer. I mean, I don't want to beat up a dead horse, but just my point, tj and Young, is that I'm happy. I'm happy that we've created awareness. I'm happy that people are starting to speak out very loudly more than they ever have before. Then I can remember I don't know what you're taking that, tj I know you're living more in tune with the social media than maybe you know, with the social media than maybe you know. Uh, master.
Speaker 1:Nah, I, I, I agree with you. I think it's. It's almost refreshing because sometimes you know we've, because I mean, even for me and being in the, the, the military, for a while, like you know, sometimes you, you do walk the line. You know what I mean. You do walk the line and you, you pick and choose your battles, because you're told to pick and choose your battles and I think we've become a sport of that. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:We, we take, we take everything and keep moving. Right, if there's no mats, we keep moving. If it's the, the ring sucks, we keep. We always do these things where we overcome and everyone goes home it doesn't say anything because we gotta go back again, you know, um, and so it's refreshing to see and to see like the coaches saying stuff, and obviously there's both sides, they're talking, going hey, well, you know, just keep working hard and maybe you'll get noticed. It's the craziest thing I've ever heard in my entire life. Like, what does that even mean? Keep working hard and maybe they'll notice you. That started a long time ago, that like, oh, come and show the national coach what a guy get noticed, what.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I go to nationals, I go to team trials, I go to states, I go to regionals, I go all these places and we have a first I'm going to add in the national ranking thing. That I think is absolutely crazy, because I just saw an update on it and it makes no sense. We have a national ranking. So if this we're talking about data and things like, we got a national ranking of people where they fall.
Speaker 3:So I noticed, but to get you know yeah, you know, um, but it is refreshing.
Speaker 1:I I like that people are fighting for the sport that they love, because I think everyone, I think we have a very strong culture in tequendale like as far as like the love for the sport, because we do put up with a lot, we do, we do go back and forth a lot, so to see people actually stand up for it because they want to be a part of it is pretty cool to me, and if we had 1% to do with that, I'm happy.
Speaker 3:I'll just add to that. The frustration comes again. Listen, it's so subjective and I think that's the frustration for some school owners that produce some pretty good athletes that support the organization. They're bringing big numbers, people are coming in there, they're paying their money, so they just want to know what's the roadmap? Tell me the roadmap so I can put my kids on or not, or we get off.
Speaker 3:But when we don't know it, and then it does feel a little bit like some smoke and mirrors when the four people that got picked, one lives out there. Uh, the other two have been out there numerous times, numerous, numerous times, and you know there's one new, younger one. Those are the four. So it almost feels like, yeah, that was kind of known, that was already pre-selected. So all the other, I don't know. Was there 50 people there? You other 50 people? Thank you for playing. Oh yeah, we'll do a tier two. We'll invite you back, for you're eligible to come to a camp.
Speaker 3:Again, I don't know what tier one and tier two really means. I'm not going to act like I do, but tier one is obviously future resident athletes there and offered that. Tier two is probably training opportunities. Just based on when I look at the age and you know the uh, the level of the success that that group has had. You know, and it's hard for me because I know there was national team athletes, you know Pan American Games athletes young, 19 years old, at that camp that didn't get selected. They're not level one or not even level two.
Speaker 3:Like that to me is wild. That to me is wild. You know, and I I'll put the name out there again. I'm not advocating for her or not, not by I got nothing to do with there. But when I see a girl like Caitlin Cox go out there, who's literally been on the Pan Am game team and is out there and is not even recognized as a level one and level two, you're telling me there's no upside, there's no future investment. Like that's what these instructors are saying. They're like wait a minute, my people have been there and you guys don't want them, you don't like them, there's nothing there for them. So how?
Speaker 1:do you. And then the fence is oh well, you know, and like what's the other? Oh well, you know, and like. What's that about justifying? Oh, because they have their favorites and they have reasons to have their favorites. That's where we're wrong. This sport's not about favorites. I don't care if you like me or not. If I'm performing, if I'm willing to put myself in this situation and I'm performing your idea of what's favorite or not favorite is crazy. I think you said that a while ago.
Speaker 3:First of all, yes, but listen, it's obviously not that. It's not that for coaches, or else you would be asked to help. It's not that for athletes, because other people would have been asked. It is about favorites. It is about whoever listens to them, whoever falls in line with them, even these coaches that talk mad shit, mad shit, and as soon as they're out to get there, they're like bravo, bravo, congratulations usa. Thank you very much for all your support. I'm like are you kidding me? So, unfortunately, it is about their favorites, because if not and I'm always pushing you up but there's a bunch of other coaches that I like in this country that I can.
Speaker 3:You know, I've always said I'm not a hater, I can give credit where credit's due. There's a bunch of programs out there that again, whether I like them or not, I can look and say good job, good job, yay, congratulations. I mean, wow, you got five, six kids over here and four of them make the cadet team or junior team. Good for you, man. Keep doing what you're doing. Sir, can you help Dude? Whatever you're doing, great, that's awesome, that's sick. So it's not about results, it's not about performance. It's about who they like, who they want, who's gonna fall in line. That's it. And for those ones I think it's a oh well.
Speaker 1:You guys talk shit about them, you guys say bad things about them. How would they work with you? I, I need. I played this game before I. I've I've stood next to them, I've helped with trainings, I've tried to hold stopwatch. I've done all the things to show my being a part of and trying to work into the system when I was in Colorado and at WCAP. You know what I mean. So for the ones, oh, now they're going to pick me. Honestly, the reality is there's no shot of me being able to work with them. There's no shot of me being able to work with them. Like it's impossible, it doesn't make any sense. You know what I mean, so I know most people.
Speaker 3:Well, you guys talk bad it is. That's so unfortunate. I had a coach, nice guy, huge program, and he asked me you know something? At the AAU team trials we're sitting there talking. He's like, have you had a conversation with them? And I looked at him. He's a little younger. I looked at him, like, are you serious? He's like I think you should. You should go talk to them. I'm like are you I go? I'm sorry, but you must be crazy.
Speaker 3:The things that they've done to people like you, people that I love, like there's no way, there's no, there's no. I mean now I know that. You know, for a guy like me, I can't speak for you. You know, specifically TJ, there is no coming back. You know, you guys go your way. I'm going to throw rocks. I'm going to try to make it better when they're gone, when it's over. You know, maybe I have an opportunity to help or maybe there's new people that come in. It is what it is, but I have no desire. There's nothing they can say. There's no, I'm sorry, we're good. You guys go your way, I go my way.
Speaker 3:I bring this conversation up just based on stuff that I'm seeing from you know, on social media and people that call me and DM me and say, what about this, what about that? I feel like I got to keep advocating and fighting for them. You know I mean again, I got nothing to do with USAT, nothing, zero, you know. But for those people I can't stop. I mean, that's how I was built young.
Speaker 3:You knew me before I was anybody. You knew me before when I had the most basic martial art uniform on, didn't have a paddle. I didn't even know what a freaking paddle was when I first started this thing. So you saw me at my most what do you call it? Introductory level, and I was always a fighter. I always stood up for what I believed, even when I was always the fighter. I always stood up for what I believe. Even when I was on the team and I was 17 years old, you know, I didn't succumb to certain things that people asked me to do. And here I am, you know, 40 years later, and I'm not going to change. You know who I am.
Speaker 2:It's better. It's better, as you know, and it's a famous saying that we all live by, it's better to live on your, it's better to die on your feet than live on your knees, and there are a lot of people in usa taekwondo that are living on their knees and have their hands on the table and have a pillow in their mouth and and I would prefer to be tj I see you trying to figure out what that means, but I'll send you a video. The um and I know you have your time is limited, so I know today you have, we're good, we're good, you sure.
Speaker 2:I thought you had like a hair appointment, hair appointment, all right, so I know there's some other topics we want to get to. I know you kind of is there, I need a haircut. Dude, I got to get a haircut too.
Speaker 3:I mean, listen on, this thing is sorry, that was a rant by me, so I apologize. No, no, it's not right on this spot, remember.
Speaker 2:You have to ask yourself a question simply on this one do you want performance or do you want disciples? So if you want disciples, then they're doing what they always do and their results are. Now. The only reason to allow a coach or a program or a director of a program to choose is if they have a pattern and a history of success. So this may not be the right name these days, but Bella Caroli. When he was the guy, he was the guy because he could identify talent, he could develop talent right, and I don't want to talk about all the stuff that came after. Just simply he was known for developing talent. So if he said this is the person, you were, 99 guaranteed this would be the person.
Speaker 2:So I can say, in this particular situation, there's no bella caroli, except certain aspects of it. At usa taekwondo, there's not in the leadership, there's not in the development, there's not in the program of sport development. There's none of that. Usa swimming has historic and systematic success, sustained competitive excellence, because they have a good eye for identifying talent. And most recently, like I keep talking about at least once a podcast, then another sport. I watch these academy directors or scouting coaches go out and scout athletes and they have a good eye for seeing the potential of a kid or where a kid is at. Anybody can identify a kid where they're at. Anybody can poach an athlete. But can you see, in the raw form, athletic talent, sport, iq, and if you can, and passion and perseverance and determination, then you're worthy of something.
Speaker 2:So in this particular situation, I'll just simply point to the medal count. When you point to the medal count and you talk about the thing that TJ is the last living legend of a man who has won an Olympic gold medal, since the three of us that have done it, four of us, a few of us that have done it, what is it that is different Since TJ? Who they didn't develop? They haven't won an Olympic medal. And these are the guys that you're entrusting with the program.
Speaker 2:And so, america, wake up, all these guys that are sitting around learning how to do weasel kick to the testicles, wake up. You're in the room because you bow and scrape to a mediocre and substandard coaching program, coaches and development system. Now, like you said, coach, if that's the way it's going to be, you don't need me. I'm too smart to be in the room. You don't need me to tell you what's going on, because you won't even understand the words coming out of my mouth. They don't need you. And the reason they don't need you is they're not interested in success, they're interested in supplication. So, anyway, enough of that, my rant for today.
Speaker 3:You were about to jump in earlier.
Speaker 1:No, I don't remember, I'm good.
Speaker 3:Were you able to change that appointment? I just agree.
Speaker 1:No, I just agree and I mean, like I said, I hate going like well, this, well, this, well, this, I mean it has to be the case, like it doesn't make any sense. I mean, you know someone was saying like and I use the example online. I know, and again, I'm like you, coach, before and same thing with you. I tried to stay away from arguing with people on Facebook I really really do because I know it always goes left, right, up, down and you got a bunch of people talking to have no idea what they're talking about, zero idea what they're talking about and then the ones that have the most to say right, most to say right. But someone raised the point of you know they have kids that are winning right now and instead of investing in the ones that are winning right now, they're choosing people to develop past that point.
Speaker 1:And I use the example in one of the Facebook posts. I mean this is, this has been the case. We've had people that were dominant in divisions that trained in different rooms that we not didn't welcome them in, and I ran past this video seven years ago, them saying how they were going to include and be inclusive of the coaches and get the buy-in from the coaches and the people. And it was going to be this grand thing and they were going to return us back to the glory days, return us back to being dominant like we should be. That was seven years ago.
Speaker 2:When was the last time that the US, not a particular athlete? There was one athlete that was dominant, one athlete, but before that, one athlete who was the only athlete, by the way.
Speaker 3:When was the last time the US was dominant in taekwondo? I know when it was. Again to TJ's point first of all, they wouldn't even know.
Speaker 2:Anybody in that room wouldn't even know what they're talking about. Can't get. They can't get the result. I went to the website because somebody sent it to me. They, they can't get the results right. They, they've got. They listed they on their own website where they finally admitted there were olympics before 2000 or whatever, and they put up the. They put up the the site. I'm laughing, because they put silver medals. They don't put them correctly. They put gold medals. They don't put those correctly. Finally, at last I went to the USAT website and I said oh, they're going to acknowledge the fact that I exist now and some of the other people.
Speaker 3:I want to see where you're going with this. You saw the video of what they said.
Speaker 1:The sell of coming in and working with the coaches and helping develop athletes, the kids from the bottom, figuring out pathways for them to get to the top. It's been seven years and this is our second attempt at the talent ID camp. This is the second time I've heard too many horror stories Like the first time. I think there was like 125, 150 people in the room.
Speaker 3:Yep.
Speaker 1:And nobody got. But nobody got feedback. No one got feedback and there was no, there was no next step to most of that. Most of them receive emails months and months and months later saying stuff like oh, I think they need to be more of this. When they spar, Like, Go ahead.
Speaker 3:At the end of the day and you lived it as a coach when you were with the WCAP you had the number one guy in the country who was damn good, it was really good, pan Am Game Medals, and he has a world of potential. But they didn't want anything to do with that person. They had their own person they were going to develop. Now, meanwhile they had, I think I think, three or four. I know three for sure. I know they had two finweights and a flyweight, because they brought in, yes, at least three, three that were supposed to supplant that guy and none of them did Okay, like why not just work with the person? I think that's the frustration of some of these coaches. They're like, hey, I have national team athletes. Okay, you want to look down the road and say someone may have more potential, but in the meantime, help these guys reach their fulfillment, help them reach their maximum potential.
Speaker 1:And he made a good point about the would you say the work ethic and the passion, like sometimes you can't. Those to me, are more important when they're younger than any skill set they have. You got a kid that's committed to the sport. You got a system that supports them to be committed to the sport and they're successful at the level they are. If we're not investing in those guys, then we're just, we're just joking.
Speaker 3:But the USA Taekwondo Academy. It should be for the USA Taekwondo, by them having the academy. It's a private club so they don't have to take it. If it was for the national team athletes anytime someone makes the national team they should be able to go out there and they should be able to get paid to go out there. But it's not. Matter of fact, they will push aside the national team athlete, someone that won their team trials, did everything that they asked them to do, won their team trials, and they say you know what? No, we'll take somebody else further down the road. So it's just again where I understand the frustration of these coaches because they're like I've done what you've asked, I put my kid on the team and you take somebody else. So you know, neither here nor there I mean I'll let that one go. Like I said, I'll never stop fighting for some of these coaches and some of these athletes, because I think what's right is right and I know there's no perfect system. I'm not a perfect guy. I wouldn't be a perfect administration person, but we got to do better.
Speaker 3:Seven years in, got to do better. Last subject real fast. We got a couple of minutes. I got to do it. I'm going to bite. I'm going to bite. Someone brought up the old school, new school. Old school, new school. And what the Ray Young, what the old school guys ask every single time? And somebody mentioned your name, my name.
Speaker 2:What did they say about me?
Speaker 3:They said, you would get whooped.
Speaker 2:Well, it would be. It would be. I welcome them. I'm 65. They're welcome to come to the school, whoever they are. If it's the individual that I'm thinking about, his mouth shouldn't open, because I think it was. Was it the kid that has a father that used to fight?
Speaker 3:I don't know who said it.
Speaker 2:Oh, okay, it wasn't him.
Speaker 3:He brought up the post, but he didn't say that.
Speaker 2:You know what I learned a long time ago? An old person, yeah, you know what the? You know what the best part about me being me is? And this is and I say this with all humility, and I was talking to my son about it the way he should act and behave, which he does anyway um, because he's a good kid.
Speaker 2:Don't worry, never turn around and look backwards. And the reason you don't worry Never turn around and look backwards and the reason you don't have to turn around and look backwards is the people behind you are ankle biters. They can't catch you, so they're trying to grab you and they're biting at your heels as you're passing them. And the one thing that never gets old is being the best at something and being number one, because the view is beautiful. There's nobody in front of you, all you do is see the tops of people's heads. So when you stand on top of the podium, or you're number one or you're the best in the world, you're always going to get ankle biters.
Speaker 2:I can tell you with some assurity, without even know the individual, who would be so ruthless as to try to take that particular approach. My friends will send him a note and explain who I am and what I did, he couldn't possibly know who I am. And I have a general rule when it comes to people like this when people tell me that if I had asked you his name, I can guarantee you I don't know his name and I can guarantee you he knows my name. And so my rule goes like this, and you guys should hold on to this one Somebody tells me about somebody in taekwondo and they say, do you know this guy?
Speaker 2:And I say I, I don't know that name. So it's probably pretty possible he doesn't matter in my sport, because if he didn't matter I would know his name. I said, but ask him if he knows my name, and if he doesn't know my name, then he definitely doesn't matter in my sport. And so that's kind of the way I look at these ankle biters. Um, I would love to. I would understand the debate.
Speaker 2:Well, I don't. I mean there's not a debate. Anybody, anybody that talks about old school versus new school taekwondo? And I'll give, I'm not talking about the athletes. Athletes today, certain athletes today, given the opportunity to compete in the form of taekwondo that we did, if they're good athletes and smart, they would have adapted and changed their game to become good and smart at what we did. And there were guys like you, coach, all of you. You changed your game as you competed, as the system changed, to be successful in the system that it was. Today, the question, the better question perhaps, or another question, is if I were to enter the sport today, would I have done the sport today? And I'm going to, probably-.
Speaker 1:You too could be a ultra world champion.
Speaker 2:No, I couldn't. No, no, if I were to enter the sport at 20 today, put a new version of Herb Perez in my son 17. If my son 17, if my son were to enter and he's different than me because he's flexible and smart at at taekwondo, but would I have chosen this sport I could tell you I would not have chosen this sport. I would have chosen. This is a world where, if I had a chance, no, no, it's the same conversation if it's old school versus new school. It's not a conversation, because this isn't Taekwondo.
Speaker 1:I can't sit here and say I guess I always get lost. What are we considering? Old school and new school? Where is the line drawn from? What era of Taekwondo are we comparing?
Speaker 2:There isn't, there isn't, but let's just go. Taekwondo that was. You can make it really simple Taekwondo that was power-based to score and Taekwondo that was electronic based to score. You can make that the defining line.
Speaker 3:I like this quote TJ because, for example, let's say 2008. That's when electronics started coming out, right 2009. Taekwondo was still good Beijing.
Speaker 2:Olympics, athens Olympics. That's when the electronics started coming out, right 2009.
Speaker 3:Taekwondo was still good I know 2008, like the Beijing Olympics, Athens Olympics, sydney Olympics, world Championships in Edmonton in 99, 97, hong Kong, 95, philippines, or one place first Like, think about, that Is old school in the 2000s, the 2008,. Is it the 90s? Because the 90s were amazing. But I try to shut everybody up because some of these people, yeah, they would get killed. Yeah, they would. No, these old guys would kill these new guys. I'm like, what are we talking about? The best will be the best in that era. The best will be the best in this era.
Speaker 3:If you put, If you cross right now, if you put the best Olympic chest protector fighter in the era of the 80s, you lose. If you put them into the electronic era, they'd probably lose. I'm not talking about would they evolve. I'm just saying the sport is different, the game is different, the rewards are different, the style is different. The rewards are different, the style is different. The body frame is different, the physical attributes are different.
Speaker 2:In general, the average guy that I see do taekwondo today would not have survived in old school taekwondo. They wouldn't even be in the room. They couldn't be in the room.
Speaker 3:And vice versa.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I couldn't be in this room, they couldn't be in the room, and vice versa.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I couldn't be in this room In old school. I don't know if every old school somehow they would actually adapt over here.
Speaker 2:They'd adapt. But if they changed, so in other words, if you took the average old school athlete and mentality, they would win. They would come into this and they'd find a way to win. Now, the rules, the rules, the rules have developed a certain type of body type for this sport not I'm going to call it a sport this game, whatever it is, and that particular it's not and you're right, it's not universal. You couldn't take these guys moving back here and they win, couldn't take these guys. But you could take these guys, the group of guys that I'm thinking about. You could take a jungkook young. You could take a jung myung some. You could take a Jungkook Young. You could take a Jung Myung-seom, you could take a Jimmy Kim. You could take pretty much anybody. You from the old school taekwondo team, put them in this world and they'd find a way to win, because that's what they do.
Speaker 3:Here's where I'm going to go with this. Let's just talk about the mentality, the mindset and the physicality. That's what I'm talking about, because even if you say they don't have the skill, sets their mind and how crazy they were and the way they were fighting I think they have a chance to adapt Most of the fighters nowadays. I don't think so.
Speaker 1:I don't think so. At some point you guys were going three-minute rounds, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:At some point you were going three-minute rounds and there was no such thing as a gap. You got a gap when you got dragged out of the ring. You couldn't, you couldn't pretty boy me for three minutes or two minutes. You know what I mean. You couldn't touch my earlobe and be there. I'm not comparing, I'm not saying this is good or bad, I'm just saying that like for me, and I always defend, when I'm arguing with you know the grand master down there, I always defend where we are currently in our sport, because I think there is a. When you talk about mentality, the best of the best have a mentality and they push it into the system and they go with right. That's just how it works and I get that. But when we start comparing what you had to do to be in a match, you didn't get to complain about getting kicked in the leg or like you were going to get kicked in the leg.
Speaker 3:I was aiming for your leg yeah, I was trying to kick you at the knee. No, tj, I guess. Maybe the bigger question is like this was just a gaslight, uh I think so for sure there's a gaslight thread that came out and I'm just kind of like okay why?
Speaker 2:why didn't? Why didn't I see it? In other words, this guy can't find me. He should say whoever you are if you're listening, because you're probably you're you're at home playing video games and masturbating. Why didn't he send me a personal? He could send me a note, he could ask me that question. I'll help him, I'll educate him.
Speaker 1:It wasn't about you. I think someone wrote something random.
Speaker 2:I'm just letting you know I'm still here, I ain't going anywhere. I still kick. I do taekwondo, I think, but just to close the loop on it for me, to be honest, if I walked into a room today as a kid and I was looking at the various martial arts that I could do, taekwondo wouldn't make it to the top of the chart for me.
Speaker 3:I would do your old school mentality? Yeah, because you know, because you know your son or someone like your son, if he walked in and like what you got chest electronics, it's cordon. Whatever you kick it, they might say that's kind of cool, that's interesting.
Speaker 2:I would have done jujitsu you.
Speaker 1:No, I think it's one of those funny posts that I think we do every month, once a month.
Speaker 2:How come I don't see it? Why? How come I don't see it? There's no, it's irrelevant, it's clickbait.
Speaker 1:It's irrelevant, it's clickbait. It's just kind of like to you know spur, and then it brings out the trolls is that rage baiting?
Speaker 2:is that what they call it? Is that what they call it? Now? I don't know you don't know what rage baiting is. They have a thing my daughter tells me that's rage baiting when you say something trying to get somebody to rage. So it's not hard to do with me. Just mentioned usa taekwondo or you know, my favorite british coach, all right now.
Speaker 1:But that's the thing. I think I'm done, raging.
Speaker 2:I think the rage in me is over a sense, because it's like you know, I was getting, I was getting, I was getting an MLK vibe from you.
Speaker 1:No, no, no, no. You last week came in with the hard Kumbaya-ing in the whole thing. You know you were very zen last week and it kind of. You said something last week about it's better to be me and then it is to be them, and I kind of resonated with me a little bit. It is, it is what I've been able to do. I mean, what I've done is what I've done. The, the rooms that I've been in, the, like you said, the air that I've been able to breathe, the conversations that I've been privy to because of the levels that I've reached in this game are you can't, you can't, you can't debate those. And I got sometimes I'll try to remember that too when I think I said it last week you can't, people don't know what they don't know. It's just we're just in this era of people just running their miles knowing that they don't know, but they still do it. I think that's just a generational thing.
Speaker 3:It is what it is. Well, sorry, not sorry guys, Sorry, not sorry.
Speaker 2:It sounds like we got to go because TJ has been very patient about he has something else to do. I think he's got to go train a bunch of elite athletes. And he's got to go train a bunch of elite athletes. He's got a bunch of white belts that have tested. Now they broke a board, they took the horns off a bull and they knew his name correctly. They got their white belts.
Speaker 1:Five miles in the rain.
Speaker 2:In my school you get a white belt. If you show up, you come to a birthday party, I'll give you a white belt.
Speaker 1:When you guys started, did they give you your white belt first day?
Speaker 2:Yes, Did you?
Speaker 1:have your white belt first day, really.
Speaker 2:Yeah, how do you keep because? You got to remember they were this uniform. It was this uniform?
Speaker 1:Yeah, how do you keep your uniform? Yeah, they didn't give us.
Speaker 2:I think I started with the pullovers. Then Did you go to of school? You went to.
Speaker 3:You had to earn your pants.
Speaker 1:When they gave you the uniform, did you earn each piece? You started as a no-belt.
Speaker 2:You started as a no-belt and you did whatever the no. I got a uniform and a belt.
Speaker 3:I know a lot of people do that. I've heard people do that. I don't do that. I give them a belt right away.
Speaker 2:You've got to get a uniform and a belt. Tj, if you showed up in the room and they told you to take your shirt off, that's a different kind of school, so.
Speaker 3:I just want to let you know Let me finish. He fell off the rocker real quick.
Speaker 1:Hey, real fast. Don't give video games a bad name. Though I like video games, Don't put those two things in the same. What video?
Speaker 2:games. Dude, I have not, nor do I have a console in this house, that's all I'm going to say. No, no, no, my kid's going to an.
Speaker 1:Ivy League school. It is.
Speaker 2:Oh no, don't get gum disease, then you get Alzheimer's. So brush those teeth, go ahead.
Speaker 3:Real fast. We have some new peak apparel coming out. It's pretty cool. We have leggings, tights for females.
Speaker 2:Honey, did you check my box? Did I get a box from?
Speaker 3:my app. I'll send it to you. The Google form. I heard that. So Mike from Michigan, my man, Mike from Michigan, he says he goes. He said I did not order the tights because TJ still has not convinced me that they are going to make me kick faster.
Speaker 1:I'm going to order a pair of tights. I'm ordering a pair of tights. It's 100% facts that I'm ordering a pair of tights.
Speaker 2:I want to play soccer.
Speaker 1:I'm ordering a pair.
Speaker 2:You want to go way back to the day? I have a picture on my phone of the first us team ever to wear spandex, and it was back in 19 and jimmy kim was in spandex. It was 1987. We were the first team and yours truly introduced everybody to long tights and we all look like spider-man.
Speaker 1:We look like uh, I love them for nike. When I started using them yeah, nike, I started using them for weight cutting because it kept you know, you wear shorts, you don't have to wear big pants, you can wear the long tights to still cover your legs and everything. I'm an advocate for tights. Mma fighters do it, boxers do it, Basketball players do it.
Speaker 2:If they work for your legs, to keep your legs and make them work better.
Speaker 1:Why don't you have a pair of tights on your head? Why don't you have a tie on your hair.
Speaker 2:Why don't you wear one of those skull caps to make you think better? I mean, I got this hair. It keeps my head warmer. Yeah, because if it works for your legs and your butt, why wouldn't it work for your forehead, like?
Speaker 1:you should wear a skull cap. Dude come on You're cutting weight, but I think you should get a pair too. Coach, you got to get a pair of tights.
Speaker 3:First of all, I wore a 56-87 under my tech one.
Speaker 2:Wait, hold on a second Hold on. I like to make you split up.
Speaker 3:I don't wear them, just like he's wearing them right now. I'm wearing them right now. I'm wearing them right now. Hey, all right, got to go.
Speaker 2:De