From Accountant to Manufacturing MD- Rob Palmer's Tale of Transition (MD of ISOCLAD)

Ever wondered what it's like to jump from the world of numbers and spreadsheets into the bustling scene of manufacturing? Our guest, Rob Palmer, Managing Director of ISOCLAD, knows all about it. He shares how he transitioned from his initial role as an accountant to leading a leading insulator panel manufacturer. A champion of organic growth, Rob talks about his unique approach to nurturing talent within his company and highlights the importance of resilience and adaptability in this fast-paced industry.

Navigating the tumultuous landscape of education and career guidance is no easy task. Drawing from his wife’s experience as a primary school teacher, Rob shares his insightful views on the current state of the education system and the lack of tailored career development strategies. He emphasizes the need for personalized support for students and the importance of pursuing one's passion, even if it takes them down an unorthodox path.

Our candid conversation doesn't stop there. We delve into Rob's journey as he transitioned into the role of Managing Director, tackling topics of workplace development, imposter syndrome, and the invaluable support of a strong team. He shares the lessons he's learned from sports, pointing out the striking parallels with team dynamics and resilience in business. His story serves as a powerful testament to the power of authenticity in leadership and the enduring importance of integrity and kindness in business. Join us as we unravel Rob's inspiring journey in manufacturing, education, and leadership.

Please subscribe to the channel for more content! Theo James are a Manufacturing & Engineering Recruiter based in the North East, helping Manufacturing and Engineering firms grow across the UK. Please call us on 0191 5111 298

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Hello, welcome to the episode of the Manufacturing Leads podcast with me, mark Ragnall, my director of the OJ's recruitment. In today's episode we had Rob Palmer on the show. Rob is the MD of ICERCLAD insulator panel manufacturer based in North Shields, who have been in business for over 40 years. I can't wait to interview Rob. Rob is a genuine, authentic down to work leader and he was just a really enjoyable open conversation about by his journey and I think there's a lot from his journey, a lot that people can take. He was someone who, quite open, when he was young, didn't really know what he wanted to do. Someone gave him the opportunity to get into accountancy and finance, which wasn't particularly a world that he was striving into, and I think the the overriding message in this episode is you don't necessarily have to love what you're doing right now. You just have to look for the opportunities that might present themselves based on the day to day. And he has used that mindset and those values to transition himself into many roles where now he finds himself MD of a brilliant business. So there's a lot you can learn from Rob's mindset and naturally he uses those values and skills to manage people in his business. We've took a lot right now in manufacturing about the skills gap and how the problems a lot of companies are facing. He talks openly about how their organic growth model hopefully allows people to have those opportunities to grow within the business when it is difficult to hire in this type of marketplace. So those are tips and tangible pieces you can take from this episode.

Speaker 1: 1:36

But I think, as I say it's, you will just enjoy listening to Rob, who is just a good, authentic leader and a lot less than speed learn. So please sit back, watch, listen, spotify, youtube, whatever your channel is. I'd be massively appreciative if you wouldn't mind liking and following the channels as well. I'll continue to get good guests on, like Rob. So thank you very much. Hope you enjoy the show. Thanks. So a warm welcome to Rob and for those who've watched before and not listened, our background is very different. We're having some Wi-Fi issues in the office today, so I'm actually in the physical office. So if you hear some stuff hopefully recruiting successfully then that's just as good about a day job, but massively looking forward to interviewing Rob. Fascinating story. Same question I asked everyone initially Rob, what does it mean to you to be a leader?

Speaker 2: 2:26

Truthfully, mark, it's something I've never actually thought about and when you messaged us about this opening question, I actually really struggled to even think about it. It's like I wake up in the morning, I don't look at the mirror and go here, I'm a leader and what does it mean to me? But I guess probably one way that I would describe it from is more pride. It's more on the basis. When I say something I've never really focused about is because I've always been quite ambitious in terms of my career development and I like challenges. So I've always been focused on looking at how I can grow and then, kind of with the steps that I've took, there's been that element of leadership that comes with it because you know you sit in a managerial position or a director position and now, unfortunately, you know if I'm sitting in a seat at the top of an organization and automatically people just look to you as a leader. But obviously there's a lot of descriptive words that comes with that and it totally depends on the time of day. But you know, in my life, just like you, mark, there's so many times of different leadership because I'm a father and my husband, I'm a friend, I'm a boss, so there's always different times and places where certain things you're all might become a leader. So before I actually did this podcast, I was having a session with someone that probably classed as a mentor, to be honest. We were just having a bit of just a general chimp wag. This week in particular has been this is a nice day for me to be honest with you, and we are kind of structured the day because we've been through board season so we had.

Speaker 2: 4:09

So I'm managing director of two organizations, one's ICICLAD and the other one's SecureCLAD. We deal in composite panels. The difference between the two is the ICICLAD product is more of a commodity based product. People would probably look at the main competitor for us to be a Kingsman product, whereas the SecureCLAD product, which is manufactured in our Welsh manufacturing site, is more niche. So it's quite specialist and it was born out of that standard composite panel which is a wall or a ceiling, essentially two sheets of steel and an insulated core Having more properties behind it. That would give it certain value.

Speaker 2: 4:47

So our ICICLAD product is mainly a thermal rated product at times. So cold storage et cetera we use a PIR based product and then you have fire rated products as well. So if you're looking for hordes or wall partitions et cetera, where you might need a fire rated product, that's, that's that. So SecureCLAD was more focused on giving the security rating. So where you need certain areas that you want some time delay in the event, it's more insurance led or infrastructure where you're trying to protect certain things.

Speaker 2: 5:20

Traditionally people would build that system up on site, which could be labor intensive, a lot of waste et cetera. So this product was developed on the basis to look at from a modular perspective and ease of installation could be develop a product and the way all manufacturing process works in ICICLAD is that you start off by picking up the core that we talked about in the different ways of processing it and I can go into that a little bit later on, so you get a better understanding terms of what direction we're trying to take the company in the future and some of the challenges that we have.

Speaker 2: 5:54

And then it goes across what we like to call a sausage machine. Essentially there's just one big continuous line where you have two sheets of steel that are rolled out of coils and the heat is applied and it goes down through a press and you just cut lengths into the product. But when you have a system like SecureCLAD, where you've got other properties that go into that initial core, it's not. You can't just pick it up and put it on the line. You've got to do some pre application etc. So historically it was built as a bit of a manual process and then taken to that line that was just described and passed through a line, but terrible from a health and safety perspective, truthfully, and also not really the ability to be able to scale through, but a very good product and I guess, leading into that. At the moment with SecureCLAD we're on a bit of a journey of establishment because we're a small medium enterprise and we're a small enterprise and we've got a lot of opportunities ahead of us to really grow. But in the past we've been oh, we're present in data centers or we're present in government contracts and things like that, but we did one job here or one job there. That's not necessarily that we've penetrated it, set there and therefore we never really had a true focus. It was just picking up work where we kind of needed to. So the way that we are kind of looking at SecureCLAD is that it's got opportunities to be a bit more of a multifaceted system because it's niche and because I've mentioned that, depending on building sites et cetera, where you have this kind of requirement, people would traditionally use a build-up method and, like I said, it can be labor intensive, it can be a lot of wet trade et cetera and a lot of waste. So the way I kind of describe SecureCLAD now is that it's multifaceted and we can play tunes to a degree.

Speaker 2: 7:55

So quite early on, when I came into the organization about four years ago, we looked at that and said, look, we've got to go into more of an automated manufacturing capability because health and safety obviously paramount. And then from a scalability point of view, we just didn't have that scalability and then, at the same token, we didn't really have a commercial focus. It was just looking at where we could pick up a project here or there. So fast forward a little bit, because I know we probably want to talk a little bit about the journeys and things like that. Fast forward a little bit to where we are at the moment.

Speaker 2: 8:31

The focus that we're trying to create for SecureCLAD is establishment.

Speaker 2: 8:35

So can we look at other areas where we could focus from a commercial point of view and really see that actually this product is perfect for maybe the defense sector, or maybe it is from a commercial application for data senders, for example, or maybe it's aviation, and then of the benefit of that is create.

Speaker 2: 8:54

What I'm deeming at the moment is to be a laminating facility or a bonding facility where there's other applications we can use. On manufacturing capability so what was conceptualized to be a product well, a manufacturing capability to deliver a security product is let's flip that on its head and let's look and see we've got some very talented engineers, we've got good capability within the manufacturing plant and actually is there other opportunities that we could actually look the focus on? So that's kind of where it goes and in essence, I know we talked about what does it mean to be a leader? And I kind of went off on a bit of a tangent there. But actually my role as a leader etc is, to my opinion, is to install belief and passion and work with the teams etc. That ultimately the goal is to be successful in the business, whether that's your employment or whether it's financial or whether it's revenue or whatever that is, ultimately it's about, can we grow, and that's that's what I'm kind of looking at.

Speaker 2: 9:53

So we've got these two businesses that are totally different, different paths, and it's quite exciting.

Speaker 1: 9:59

Excellent stuff and you mentioned the word that I was going to mention anyway passion, because you've you described the company there and you communicated extremely well, and the passion Sean through right from the start. Your journey isn't the typical journey, I guess, as some, in terms of manufacturing. So you know, you're, you know, the last interview I did was was an MD who was essentially a mechanical engineer, inventor, always thinking. But you come from a very different background but yet you still got that passion proves that two people can come from complete, from backgrounds, solve the same goals and vision, which I, which I love, and that's why I love manufacturing. Where does that come from? From you? Do you think that drive and that passion?

Speaker 2: 10:40

So my background is finance and it was not. It was not a career choice that I decided to go into was finance. I tell you the story of how it came about was basically, I got a bit of a passion around education. My wife's a primary school teacher. Your wife's a primary school teacher as well or secondary school teachers and primary, primary primary.

Speaker 2: 11:06

Okay. So it's always been something I've been very interested in, because you look, I go home and the conversation point isn't around about. You know, we always drove my wife or say Cut, with the bollocks of being the CEO. At the moment You're a husband, you know where you kind of have a conversation. Yeah, you're pushing me into check a little bit. Same, so, okay, so when I go in, but I've seen over the last, so we've been together myself in Charlotte for 30 years and when I met her she was in her last year of university to become a teacher.

Speaker 2: 11:46

So 12 years of employment in education and, honestly, like I couldn't do it and yeah, and I'll probably imagine we've probably shared some, a lot of similar stories where you know it's not necessarily that so here being in the role I am now, or the responsibilities that we're taking through the journeys, et cetera. We've all got those responsibilities. But I could turn the laptop off, I could walk away from the emails, et cetera. She can't do that. So if she has to mark those books or the welfare of the children and the school and the way that, especially from an education point of view, you know the people will turn around and go oh well, they get six weeks holidays, yeah but the hours for what they've bought, for the pay, et cetera.

Speaker 2: 12:34

And I don't know about your partner, but my wife certainly. I've seen plenty of days of tears.

Speaker 1: 12:40

Oh God, weekly probably, yeah, and that level of responsibility and just yeah, it never really been able to switch off and the amount of pressure, it's just not spoken about enough. You only know it if you live with it, I guess, and that's not disrespectful, but that's just the reality, isn't it?

Speaker 2: 12:57

Yeah, and then like that challenge where you know I'm coming home and, look, these are real things that everyone goes through at some point in time, Because, again, you're a father, yeah, I've got a one-year-old and I've got a five-year-old, and so we're both, you know, on our career journeys and you know she wants to be a very good teacher and she's made sacrifices to allow me to be able to go. But well, honestly, if you see my diary, at times, mate, I'm all over the shop and we joke about it. She'll go, yeah, but you're getting nice, nice sleep and I'll tell them it's not the same, you know.

Speaker 1: 13:32

You know gonna walk up a freedom on it.

Speaker 2: 13:33

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. So the reason why I was saying that is because when I talk about education, I never really knew what I wanted to do more and I think that's a lot of the same for a lot of people out there, and I'm just speaking from personal experience. I hit a point where I was probably around about 14 or 15 where I just started to go a bit off the rails a little bit. You know, I wasn't, you know, a rebel or anything like that, but I was more interested in going play football with my friends. Yeah, you lost your focus, lost your vision a bit, 100%. So when someone turns you and go, what are you gonna do for your options for GCSEs? Honestly, I picked business communication systems to afford it sounding good. I learned how to touch type for two years, right, but I got, and I got a B in it, so I can type 60 words a minute, so that's always helped.

Speaker 1: 14:33

It's a life skill.

Speaker 2: 14:34

Yeah, exactly. So there was never anything in those choices that I'm near is what I'm getting at. That then was like for that next step in the career. So then when I came to you know, get my GCSE results I decided to continue in education and I went to sixth form for it. And again the same thing comes as like, well, what are you gonna choose? And at that time I didn't even know what I wanted. I didn't even know I wanted to go to university. I didn't even know if I really wanted to be in education. Still, and I've always had parents that have worked, and my dad, my dad particularly, you know, come from a bit of a rough upbringing and I had a bit of a. I had a B over a couple of weeks ago and you used saying to this he's like you know, you're when when you said you come from a counter-list, you didn't come from a counter-list state.

Speaker 1: 15:24

I'm like you held that incident to 2016 that you know, like I was like 2000 to 2003 mate. I was like, yeah, yeah, I'm sorry to disappoint. You Made a bad story.

Speaker 2: 15:35

Yeah, yeah, he's like because we owned the property and I was like, yeah, dad, well, what was mean by it is like the majority of people on that state didn't have that luxury. It wasn't a counter-list state and I wasn't stating it like some sort of sorry, but I expect the story you know. Look at me, look where I've come from. I've come from the Bronx. Like I was just what he was going to say. But, like, coming from that upbringing, I always had love and my dad would juggle a couple of jobs and the four of us, like you know, I always had the latest thing at times and certain things like that, and it was him who really installed what a lot that I believe like now in me. That's got me to this stage.

Speaker 2: 16:24

And but basically there was nothing there telling me that I wanted to be a future business leader or an accountant. I just picked some subjects again and I think it was economics, geography, psychology and general studies and, mark, I flunked them all right Because I just had no interest whatsoever. And basically what happened was on a Wednesday we'd sneak to the corner house pub in the coast road, sit at the back, so one of the lads, who was obviously looking a little bit older than myself, was able to go and get the beers and bring them down, but I didn't work or anything. So I had to go and then someone offered me dad most and I said I'll pay them back. My dad had always worked in factories all his life and when I was about 11, I think it was 11, 12 or something there was an advert I think he says it in the evening, I don't know, doesn't really matter in that sense, but it was become financial advisor. The cooperative insurance were looking for people to come and train up, no matter what background, et cetera.

Speaker 2: 17:35

If you kind of had that capability, they would put you through your exams as being a financial advisor, so my dad went to this and they liked them and he went on that path and he quit the jobs in the factories and became a financial advisor. And at that point you met a gentleman called Richard Hall and they hit it off and they went through a couple of companies together financial advisors and then Richard decided to get out of financial advice and open up a mortgage packaging company. And then those were the days when subprime mortgages, self-certification, et cetera no wonder, there was a bloody bubble that broke and, to be honest, that's where I ended up losing my first job because of that and my dad went along and my dad was always a good salesman and became the sales director there. So this day I went, dad, could I lend 10 pound to go to the pub? He says, well, you'd have to come to Richard's house because it wasn't too far from the corner house and I'll lend, I'll give you a tenner.

Speaker 2: 18:34

And when I, honestly, I walked into the door and I was broad straight away and Richard turns and goes, your dad says you're mucking around at school and I'm like I'm just there to take the 10 pound of road and go in the pub. Yeah, and I was 16 and I said yeah. He said well, do you have any inkling of what you want to do? And I was like well, no, he said well, you're wasting your time. Then what's the point of going back to another year, et cetera, if you're not even focused? And I went this was pure luck and afforded for the opportunities that were presented because of the work we did, richard turned to us and said look why don't you come, go to school, quit sixth form and come and work for us.

Speaker 2: 19:16

We'll put you in the accounts department and we'll train you up to be a bookkeeper and then, if you want to continue the career accountancy members, you do et cetera members you have a career accountancy. And I just went yeah, that sounds great. And I took the 10 pound, went out with me mate, and the next day I went to sixth form and handed my notes and in sixth form the next week I started with him and that's where the journey started.

Speaker 1: 19:38

I don't know. They're the moments you look back, you reflect on that. If that hadn't happened, you would be where you are. I mean, given the fact that you're a good person to ask advice for, you know you're a school governor, so you understand how things work on that, or should work. Prior to recruitment I was a crazed advisor for you. I trained to be a crazed advisor at a qualification Exactly the same as you.

Speaker 1: 19:58

I didn't have a clue what I wanted to do at school. Did media at uni, because that's what I got at uni. What's the easiest degree you can do? Media did it. Still don't know what to do. Then I thought I'd better learn something.

Speaker 1: 20:08

So I did a course in careers guidance and I wanted to go down that route and I had a placement year working in schools and I loved it in a sense that I felt for the ones that I was helping people because I've still got something in me we really enjoy and gets sort of firm, some value out of that. I didn't feel like I was helping enough because I thought I'm at my hands tied and I'm a bike, because I've been told things have changed now, but 15 years ago it was pretty much. If the kids are getting good grades, sent to university, tell them the course. If the kids aren't, maybe some apprentices, maybe some apprentices, but there was no real education behind it. There's no real. Do you know what I mean? And now, having worked in manufacturing recruitment so long and seeing the courage you can get, not only from engineering, from people like yourself, there's just not that awareness and the skills gaps getting bigger. Do you see that in schools there's no synergy between the two professions?

Speaker 2: 21:01

Yeah, I mean, you can trace it quite far back. Look, I'm a governor of the primary school and I always remember quite early on I've been a governor.

Speaker 2: 21:11

I've been a governor, probably around about eight or nine years now, maybe longer, but it was around that and I remember the head, the school I'm at it was because I looked for someone that had financial experience. So I'm a co-op the governor into that and my daughter actually goes to the staff school now. So anyways, cut along story short, the head teacher at the time early on when I was a governor remember I'm saying to is that you get these kids to your six and you get them through the SATs and these kids are like you know, in your eyes, you know you've seen them, you know go from a lot of the time, nursery all the way through et cetera, and you see them on the journey but after that there's nothing you can do. And the feeder school, from a high school perspective, where this primary school goes into, it's part of a kind of a trust. Essentially you know that's on there and it's about six or seven primary schools and I remember I'm saying to is about you know they would have conversations and they would follow the path now and then of the certain individuals et cetera. And a lot of the time those individuals, once they hit high school they were good achievers in primary school just went off on a tangent and in work, because then you've got this pool of you know a lot more kids kind of coming into it, so, like when we talk about guidance and certain things like that, you just get lost in it. So you know you probably have the same, you know you haven't been able to meet or whatever and look, I don't have the luxury and I don't know about even what. Anyways, to the point, I put my kids into private school and it's different pressures where it comes from that perspective, but there's definitely benefits of it.

Speaker 2: 22:54

When you talk about smaller classes and a bit more concentration et cetera, and it's the same what we're talking about now.

Speaker 2: 23:00

From it, you know, you say and I can give advice to people, et cetera, and I do, and actually after this podcast I'm doing a mentor on someone, so I've got a bit of a mentoring session for that individual.

Speaker 2: 23:09

But when you can give that one to one or you can give it in small groups and certain things, the amount of knowledge that those individuals come through with is a lot more powerful than you know being in the class of 30 kids, et cetera, and being lost to it, because you have your extroverts and I'm probably certainly an extrovert, but you have a lot of people that are introverted and don't have that confidence, and then you try to nurture them and try to support them, et cetera. It's my opinion, but I think sometimes people are just used as statistics at times, and I think that's the problem from an educational point of view is that it's all about where those grades are, what we're kind of doing and actually not really fundamentally thinking about that child as a kind of and don't get me wrong, I don't have any answers to be able to deliver that when you've got hundreds and sometimes 1,000 kids to kind of manage. But it's very difficult.

Speaker 1: 24:00

Apologies for interrupting this podcast for a very quick 30 second pitch of my business. Theo James, I'm a specialist in manufacturing and engineering recruitment search firm based in Seam in the Northeast. If you're looking for any staff or new opportunity yourself from a semi-skilled level, write the way up to C-suite executive and please get in touch. We have a specialist consultant in each discipline ready to help. I'm extremely proud of what we've built over the years and I'd love to extend that service out to you. Thank you, enjoy the podcast. Yeah, it is. The schools have all got. They're now driven by data and results and et cetera. Exactly that.

Speaker 1: 24:40

That tailor approach has gone completely out of it. I remember once when I was school in South Shield and they asked me, there was a young lad there having was 15 and he was a good football player and they said it's a real football player, but what the chance is gonna make it? All he wants to do is football. You need to hammer on to him that he needs a strong plan B, and they weren't wrong in that sense. It's not a sense, but they really pushed me to try not making good out of the path and when I spoke to him, this kid was just so passionate about what he does and didn't just want to have a plan B. This was it, and it was difficult. I couldn't disagree with it because that was his passion and we just had a chat and we made some plans about trying to make that happen and in the end he did. A little lad was called Mike Waggon and he went on to play for Sunderland Derby.

Speaker 2: 25:30

Ironically, he really, you really get my team really get Chef Wed for you years ago.

Speaker 1: 25:38

So I wish I told them to get into the business studies instead. But you know the case in point that I think for me it needs to be that tailor approach because everyone is different massively and perhaps if you'd have had for you, you know, for you you were lucky enough to have some good support systems around you at that time and someone to take a chance in here, because they trusted that your dad was good, so you will be as well. But not everyone's got that opportunity, have they, and they might have wasted the skills in that sense.

Speaker 2: 26:08

Yeah, I think it's interesting. You mentioned football there because, well, to answer that question, the second boat, my dad and Richard and taking a chance, because that is what happened. I'm very fortunate because that's how it all started. And don't get me wrong, 20 years later, with lots of bumps in the road and lots of different paths and same things which we can get into if you want to.

Speaker 1: 26:33

Here I am now.

Speaker 2: 26:35

But football is an interesting one and this is the thing as well that I always kind of think about, because I played on the right level of football and so you know, getting a couple of quid on a Saturdays and playing midweeks or whatever like that, and a lot of the time I'd say at least 50% of the players that were playing in that league and the teams and stuff that I was around had come from pro clubs or, to a degree, a club that maybe is a hardy pools and stuff as well, you know, and they had that same what you've just said there passion that they thought they were gonna be a footballer. And I remember there was one lad in particular I didn't try not to name names, but he'd captain something in reserves and he played like some of my four-year games and I remember that some of the players he played against he's like I played against Nemanja Villas, 21st sign for my night in the reserves, and I played against James Melinas and all this and I'm like I can't believe, like you know, that must have been amazing and it was making coffee at the time was the manager, and the way that this individual told the story to us was that kind of like, you know, when it comes to judgment day, are we gonna keep this player on and sign into a small contract, certain things? And a lot of the coaches said yes, now he was quite small, he was certainly a field player and look apologies to anyone that's watching this, that's not reading the football, et cetera but the best way I can describe this individual was like a Claude McAleady right, yeah, yeah, yeah. He just had this massive shuffle and a run, right, so, so anyways, all the way he described it was the coaches said yes, came to Mick McAfee. Mick had the final decision. Mick McAfee said no.

Speaker 2: 28:14

A couple of weeks later, mick McAfee gets sacked from something, this individual. He went back and asked if you know, would the new manager, could he audition or whatever? And they said look, we're gonna take the decision of this individual previously, blah, blah, blah, no. And he just fell down the ranks and certain things that I sent and I think he ended up being a corporate fitter. He had no good career in the end. Have any played the local route? He got a couple of quits, but you imagine that you captained the Southern Reserves. He didn't fall and that fall down and he didn't even see anything related to sport. And then that's, and he lost a lot of love from it as well. And the lovely blow, by the way, and the reason I'm telling the story is because I played with him at the lower level Nice to look at him going. God, you could have easily beaten, and it's just that chance, isn't it, that someone you need to take.

Speaker 2: 29:09

The reason why I'm saying that story was I personally think the clubs could do a lot more for those individuals as well, like so, for example, you've got a lot of the others that I know around that actually did stuff in sport. So they did, you know, physios, or they might have been coaches or whatever, but it's the same from a manufacturing point of view or what. But I'm in manufacturing at the moment, but I've been through a lot of sectors and there's a lot of as well. As come back to schooling earlier on, is that there's so many life skills and so many transferable skills that you can learn about from certain jobs.

Speaker 2: 29:43

And, look, this individual probably learned a lot of life skills from being a carpet fitter and using his hands, et cetera as well, and he's probably got so many other skills that he's nurtured and I hope he's. I haven't spoken to him for a long time. I hope he's doing really well, but I just think that's the type of thing that we could do more of is help people, whatever the position they're in or whatever the company or whatever the you know scenario, the kind of give them more skills that are transferable, instead of just looking at it as statistic or get more words out. You know that this person and they should be doing this, et cetera. So that's my opinion.

Speaker 1: 30:20

To use that analogy to manufacturing, and one of the biggest challenges we have now is the skills shortage. Everyone is looking is in the same pool, you know, and it's widening. Is that something you think about when you grow into the business and you're hiring staff and you can't necessarily get the required skillset? I understand for certain jobs you just need those skills. Is that a mentality you think manufacturers should be having when they're looking at, you know, the new generation of people in their industry, for example?

Speaker 2: 30:50

Yeah, so I can only speak from experience and in my opinion to this and it's always I try to be quite conservative when it comes to making statements and certain things that, especially when you don't have all the information you know, especially when you end up politics.

Speaker 1: 31:05

Yeah, and I say oh well, you know it's like I don't really know too much. I know.

Speaker 2: 31:10

I don't fucking care. I might be doing myself a bit of a disservice there, I don't know. It's something that I think you learn a lot from your experiences. So in selling the things that I would like to, and I'm doing for the businesses, if come through the things that you don't want to say, we've all had a bad manager and, to be fair, people in my class may be the bad manager, I don't know, but that's an opinion to make.

Speaker 2: 31:38

At times you learn so much from those circumstances. So what I always kind of looked at throughout is like giving people chances is always look, you always have situations where you promote someone on one station above, as they kind of say you know, and they're just, they're really good as an operator, but they weren't good as a manager. But you think, oh, they're a really good operator and you're trying to help them with a career trajectory and you go next step will be a manager and you bring them in and it just doesn't happen and we all have that. But the first thing is that I've always learned is to try and give chances is can you resale or support new skills for potential that you already have internally? And that's where you go and talk. You go and talk to your supervisors, your head to department, etc. Because they should know that and they should know that, because they should be affording the time when it's needed to.

Speaker 2: 32:40

You know, not just waiting to an annual review or it don't get me wrong Right, this second we are annual reviews. We're not reviewing enough, but that's because we're going through a bit of a transition at the moment and we've already communicated and that's the key word, we already communicated to the staff that we will be doing more, etc. We will be putting development matrix in place and training matrix, etc. Just give us a bit of time to do so. We're not neglecting that, it's just sometimes it just takes a bit of time. But if we're doing that more, then we should be able to understand the before needs, not trying to you have a job mark, but that we're not.

Speaker 1: 33:15

No, no, it's right, it's looking externally. Yeah, yeah, yeah, if you can, because how many times have you?

Speaker 2: 33:21

probably seen this when you speak to individuals that are looking for a job and the first thing they turn around and go and say and you go, why are you leaving when you're going? They go, just no opportunity or I've been overlooked for this and actually whatever.

Speaker 1: 33:35

It's our advice every single time would shock people actually because they think we're doing it so I'll have a job. But companies should always look that organic process because that's how you help your attention. Yeah, you know tickly new generation. They want to come in today and know how well they can be in five years. And if you can't see that sometimes they can't literally in a piece of paper then you know they're probably going to be off to a company that offers that. So I completely agree. It's a massive part of it. Given the fact you mentioned that transition, I know you've your business gone through a transition that can be rocky. You know highs and lows. Any lessons you've learned from going from taking a business from here to here? What do you say?

Speaker 2: 34:16

If you've asked me what I think my biggest skill is or something that I kind of would say of myself as a quality, I promise you the word resilient and that's not necessary meaning oh, I got through that and I didn't quit kind of resilient, you know. But I think not just even looking at it from a transition point is terms of being a financial director into a manager director. Personally, I think that's come easy. Compared to some of the other transitions that I've had. The more more meaning from that is that I've been a number two for quite some time and therefore, being around you know how to operate in a board and you know hand in glove with managing directors etc. And to be honest, the role I had before I came into here to ICLA four years ago, I pretty much made it up to managing director. It's just at the time the title wasn't given or whatever. So I've had some experiences and not, I think, actually the transitions over time where I've found it more difficult and challenging if actually being from being you know where you've been like. So if you take some of the titles I've had and I'm not just focused on titles but see a financial system to a finance manager and learning how to manage people or processes and things like that, where you've not had that experience and that's totally new. Those are the transitions that actually have meant this transition has been a lot smoother. In my opinion it's a different type like don't get me wrong, like most manager directors, like yourself, mark, you probably woke up in the middle night when the political sweat of certain things are kind of going on and that doesn't, that doesn't, that doesn't change. Sometimes I see very well and sometimes I don't. But but those were the times where actually having good people around in good mentoring and I've had some bad ones but that have really helped through that transition period.

Speaker 2: 36:23

The slight difference for this is that there's a bit of a bigger expectation, because now I'm sitting at the top of an organization and you know how you set in this. Look, we have a senior leadership team. So that's not me. You know a lot of the visionary stuff and the influential stuff does obviously cascade through from myself, but we talk about those things and we decided that's the right option right now. So, just for example, I told you earlier on it's board week. So we it was all we do three times a year. So the lead up to that and get into a point.

Speaker 2: 37:03

And then the way that I like to push from that direction now and I'm glad that our board are going that direction as well, because we are obviously not exact directors and we have owners and sellers et cetera coming in and I'm the only individual from the internal organization that sits on the bigger board is that it's keeping it very strategic. So we, the papers, are very small because the amount of information that was circulating constantly through the organization from a management report on a monthly basis, through the weekly reports, going on to and on, et cetera we don't need to take the time up on those very valuable times to talk about what happened. That's more about how we move forward and why. Why do we think we should go that direction. So I call it a free from the tax. I don't know if it's the right word, but the team seem to like the fact that it's very focused in that sense is that it starts from a commercial point of view. So what opportunities are there into what investment is required? And finally then talk about the financials. So what is the opportunity that's presented? What's that going to lead to in terms of financial reward or a cost in, et cetera. So like that type of focus that we're instilling through the business, that transition to get to that point to be able to lead an organization, to come from the experiences that I've went all the way through my career of 20 years in terms of some form of business and some form of the big conversation points that we've had around, I've been very fortunate.

Speaker 2: 38:37

In the way I've always looked at it from a financial point of view is that's what I always said is I fell into finance. I didn't love finance. I used it as a platform to springboard me to other options. So I always ran the problems I always wanted to get involved with, if understanding for that. I never just wanted to pick up a trial balance and just go, okay, it's processed through. I would question things, I would go and hunt things. I wanted to be more commercial than the standard. It's the point is me going to the commercial guy go, hey, by the way, you can't sell that at that price. And they're like, why, well, not making the margin there? And they go, yeah, but the opportunity I could present off the back doesn't matter, it's a number. But then I wanted to be that type of person.

Speaker 2: 39:20

I always wanted to kind of, you know, have a better understanding. So, okay, well, that's a commercial opportunity what we're doing from marketing perspective. So I'm setting some budgets. Okay, like, can I get involved a little bit and understand from a marketing perspective why we're going that route? And have me consider this. And then it's the other side of it. What I really like about manufacturing is you're making a product, so therefore then it comes into supply chain and then it comes into credit stations, etc.

Speaker 2: 39:46

And I always said that I never wanted. I always wanted to get to be a leader in an organization from a perspective that I just wanted to keep growing. But I never wanted to sit in a boardroom and have no clue what was actually being said from a different area. You know, I don't need to be the master of that technical department, but I've got a better understanding that you can't pull the wool over my eyes because I've took the time. And that's why I'm saying is, all of those times of transitions that we've got to this stage have been a lot smoother now because of those experiences. So apologies that I'm talking ahead of a lot.

Speaker 1: 40:23

From that perspective, very interesting. So I think that there's a lot less into the load lessons. I think, particularly the one I like the fact you said you didn't see the financial side is this is you forever use it as a springboard to get to where you want to be, and I think there's a lesson there for a lot of people that sometimes you've got to do the hard miles, you've got to take decisions which you might read the wards a little late down line Culture trickles downhill. I think it has to start from the top, without doubt. You know you are personable, you're honest, you're transparent.

Speaker 1: 40:55

I imagine you're someone where you just talk to people at a level without any bullshit, basically, and I think that's, that's horrible and actually I wouldn't say I wouldn't say it's rare, because I think management strategies and have changed Thankfully over the last 15 years and it's and that's one of the best things I've done regarding the podcast is see that it's still so much sort of joy to see how management has changed over the years. Was was that important to you when you became from the F3 to MD to not change, or was there also a conscious element to go right? I have got to change a little bit. What's your mindset regarding that? I imagine people struggle with that sometimes.

Speaker 2: 41:38

Yeah, I think two words kind of always been. For me personally, it's authentic and genuine, and look, I get it wrong sometimes. You know there's sometimes where you just need to reign it in as well as you know, kind of, if you do those personalities, I'm an ESG, okay, but at times you've got to know when to steal from an introvert and you've got to you know, know that circumstance needs this or whatever, and I think of the I was saying right now it's not my saying, but I really I really liked it from the book that the hard things about hard things with Ben Horowitz People, product, profit.

Speaker 2: 42:28

Good people will deliver good product and profit will just naturally follow. And that's the mantra that we've set here from a cultural perspective and don't get me wrong, mark, we don't get it right all the time. Okay, you think you're putting people first, but sometimes you're not Okay.

Speaker 2: 42:46

But the important aspect that I like to say is because of that offendiness and because of that genuine side of what I'm trying to say is that people know where they stand and I think, in my opinion, I'm just telling you how I would like to be treat. I don't want to have to second guess something or whatever you go into a conversation. I enjoy those things. At times you know about the negotiations and when you kind of have a conversation about certain things, but at least people know who I am right and, like I say, it's not like you've a like it or you're lumpy type situation.

Speaker 2: 43:26

It's just, I don't need a change, that's just me. And look, people can say maybe you need to hold on this a little bit or maybe you need to learn that I'm looking over here because I've got a library full of books that I've not even read.

Speaker 1: 43:43

Yeah, there's a few around there as well, but there comes that look. I got excited when I bought them.

Speaker 2: 43:50

Yeah, exactly, and I'm thinking I'm going to learn something whatever. You learn so much from just your experiences, and it's knowing when to switch it on. That's the difference is, when it comes to that moment, have you talked in an important meeting? Or if you happen to make a tough decision, right, let's get into that. Okay, and my first process is never to blame. The start, the starting point is we'll have a lot of problems and we'll have a lot of challenges. I personally believe that we operate our business operating two of the most volatile areas of uncertainty at times manufacturing and construction. Yeah, things rarely go to plan. Okay, but the first form process is the safe example, like the line goes down or we have a situation where something comes in and it's damaged or whatever.

Speaker 2: 44:42

And you know you're operating, sometimes in just some time, etc. It's not to just go, ah, whatever it is, it's more on the basis Well, first and foremost, how do we solve that? How do you put the measures in to prevent that? And sometimes you overanalyze it. You're burdened people with too much as well at times. So sometimes you got to look at it and just go. That's just a rarity, it's a one-off, and we just move on from that perspective and how we kind of move forward with it.

Speaker 2: 45:14

But ultimately everyone just knows who you are and how you deal with certain things. At times have I had the part company where people of course I have have our times had to be authoritative? Of course I have, but most of the time, look, everyone's trying their best to move in the direction. So you know, if you take a revenue target, we set those targets one. They're realistic but they're challenging. So a lot of the time we don't hit them. Am I going to walk in the room and start screaming going the business is fucked, like what's happened here type of situation? Of course I'm not. It's the analysis of data that needs to circulate for the organization to understand the wise. Okay, not just focus constantly on them, but just to understand them, because that'll make us better. And if we're all focused on that and we create that culture of authenticity and understanding, then I'm sure we'll be fine and then people can turn around.

Speaker 2: 46:13

If we don't deliver a mark and they can see a robbie win successful, then I'll just go. Do you know what? At least that was true to that and what we're trying to set? And you know a quick comment on the two ball beats I just had because of the individual companies the one thing that everyone said was everything you're saying in terms of the strategic approach or what we're doing, we believe in and it's the right decision to go. But the key is Mark is, at times when things aren't going your way, the agile enough to pivot, be proactive enough to move in the right directions and certain things and communicate it. And sometimes things just don't go the way you want them to go. But that doesn't mean that we're not trying and I think if everyone's trying, then I think we can be happy about that, you know of that Excellent, and I completely agree with everything you said then and resonate with all, which is, I'm sure, what people with.

Speaker 1: 47:06

Thank you so much. That's a lovely way to close that part of the episode. So some quick fire questions for you, rob, best manager you ever had, and why? Oh my God, that is a good question Jim Richardson, click time manager director.

Speaker 2: 47:29

I've always got a lot of respect for anyone that takes the sort of I'm a manager director but it's not my creation. And I think it's totally different when you're an entrepreneur and you put the mortgage on the line and in all those types of things, and that's where, like, the hard yards are in. So I learned a hell of a lot in that period of time and the best thing about that is I believe that I'm sitting in Missy right now because of that period of time when I was able to travel the world for those opportunities with some big companies like Lego and Disney and people like that.

Speaker 1: 48:00

Because of that Love it Excellent Biggest influence from business, entertainment or sporting world, anything outside of work.

Speaker 2: 48:14

I love sport. I just, I, just I think personally as well. That team aspect is certainly helped me in business, you know, knowing my role, not one less people down knowing that I need it, I've got responsibility and accountability, etc. So there's a lot of sporting people and look, I'm an other Newcastle United fans, so people might hear me for saying this but I loved a lot of what Alex Ferguson did, to be to be truthfully honest and, yeah, the way I know he does a lot with like Harvard and certain things like that, but I really like that approach that he took from a sporting aspect and how you coordinate that, but also the stakeholders that he talks about and how you, how you pull that all together and I think that there's a lot of that kind of resonates with what you're doing.

Speaker 1: 49:02

He's the most popular answer. He will be my answer as well. I just think yeah, for all the reasons you've discussed that. You've already mentioned one. It could be the same one Best book you've read, or audio book, If you recommend.

Speaker 2: 49:17

I like games for legacy in terms of reading, I feel like it's a great book for anyone the game sport related, but in terms of enjoyment that I got out of it, I really love Shoe Dog by Phil Knight.

Speaker 1: 49:29

Great book. Yeah, really good book. Good answer. And I've brought this back. I stole this, this part, this question, from another well, another, a very popular podcast where the last guest asked the current guest a question. So I can't take credit for that invention, but I stopped doing it. I brought it back. So the last guest was Steve Pugh, interviewed right, who is the founder of MBA Roadmap, which is a great business where they it's like an alternative to your traditional MBA, which obviously I know you've got what you're talking about. So it would have been good to get your car argument on that. But his question was at any point in your career, did you ever think of just hanging it up and doing something else?

Speaker 2: 50:08

100% Finance.

Speaker 2: 50:13

I thought I didn't like finance, Didn't want to be finance, and it was the first job I had Richard, he paid for my bookkeeping, so I did night classes and did day, but when I left there I had to find my way through ACC.

Speaker 2: 50:28

So I took a lot of the resumes and the jobs that I took and I used to hate it at the time doing the ACC. It was two, two exam seasons summer and winter, and I hated it when it comes to like summer and having to put the slog in and I hated the lead up the Christmas, having to put the slog in, and I only failed one exam and it was just not. I just wasn't focused, to be honest. And I got to the last four exams there was like 11 exams until about two and I remember turning on my mom, because I lived with my mom at the time and I said you know what? I know I'm this far down, but if I fail these exams I'm going to hang up and I'm going to go and join the police. I don't know why the police I did.

Speaker 1: 51:12

That's what I said.

Speaker 2: 51:14

But, that was a big, big point in my time. I just hated that point.

Speaker 1: 51:20

It comes back to resilience and resilience. You showed and here you are, and obviously I still have a brilliant business, great place for you all now. So plans for the next 18 months what's happening?

Speaker 2: 51:33

So we lost our way with ICICLAD and again, the fortunate thing I had with that is I was part of that and I have to hold my hands up and take responsibility for that. And then I talked earlier on about the establishment of SecureClad. So we're trying to create a laminating facility for SecureClad and build a brand, whereas ICICLAD is more on that re-establishment, and what I mean by that is understand what our value proposition is, and historically it was always around quick turn around, flexible offerings and more service related. So when I say we lost our way, we went through a period over the last couple of years where we just took on too much and we decided that we were going to try to be bigger than what we were. And there's nothing wrong with trying to achieve those standards.

Speaker 2: 52:24

But when you've got big beasts playing in that arena and it's all around prices, around volume, and our economy is a field that we can't compute with that at the moment, we have to do a lot of investment into the business to bring that capability up. And look, we're not a little bit of a LISICLAD, we're not a billion-dollar-pound corporation like our big competitors are. So what I've done is being able to say to the team. We're going back to that. We're going back to our value proposition. We've got a few tricks up our sleeve on certain other things outside of that offering that are not necessarily diversification but more so bringing maybe some rig in to support longer term strategic. But what I want to be doing for this company, I think that is quick, turn around, flexible, so if someone needs something we can do it with high level service and retaining it for the customers. And if we do that I'm sure we'll be fine.

Speaker 1: 53:20

Excellent. And look, rob, I've really really enjoyed this and you know so many lessons from it massively. And actually, I think, for me just to who you are and what I mean by that is, I think I probably had some imposter syndrome years ago from my role suddenly becoming part of my role, suddenly coming meeting MDs and even on this podcast and thinking, but I like it, I'm going to meet MDs, and do you know what I mean? Some real imposter syndrome about that, despite the fact I was one myself.

Speaker 2: 53:47

I'm a laugh now. In that sense it's a bit of a surprise.

Speaker 1: 53:51

It's bizarre but actually you know you've carved out a really successful career and out a great business from just being you and you know no disrespect, no worries and graces, just being you and being honest and truly self and minding people in that way and I'm sure anyone watching or listening to this can probably learn a lot about that and just be yourself and have the right values and goals and the mission that obviously I have completely resonate with and it's the same for us. So thank you, spear, it's been a privilege.

Speaker 2: 54:22

Yeah, no problem, mate, I've really enjoyed that, I really hope.