Looking to up your leadership game? Ever wondered how the power of language can transform your communication skills as a leader? You're in the right place. We sat down with Claire Walton, a renowned performance coach and best-selling author, who shared her incredible insights into the world of leadership. Throughout her career as a senior HR professional in retail and manufacturing, she navigated the complex world of leadership, and she's here to share those learnings with you. Claire talks about the importance of continuous learning, embracing discomfort, and the crucial role of language in leadership.
Have you ever been nervous about public speaking? We get that. We've been there, and we've learned some valuable lessons along the way. In our discussion, we confront our fears of public speaking and share our personal journey to overcoming it. One of the main takeaways? It's more important to deliver your message with conviction than seek approval from your audience. We also delve into the impact of ego on leadership, the power of growth over change, and the necessity of listening to our inner child.
But leadership isn't just about the work; it's about the leader too. We discuss the importance of self-care, touching on the basics of sleep, nutrition, exercise, and hydration. Get ready to gather some valuable insights and practical tips for becoming a more effective leader.
Please subscribe to the channel for more content! Theo James are a Manufacturing & Engineering Recruiter based in the North East, helping Manufacturing and Engineering firms grow across the UK. Please call us on 0191 5111 298
Looking to up your leadership game? Ever wondered how the power of language can transform your communication skills as a leader? You're in the right place. We sat down with Claire Walton, a renowned performance coach and best-selling author, who shared her incredible insights into the world of leadership. Throughout her career as a senior HR professional in retail and manufacturing, she navigated the complex world of leadership, and she's here to share those learnings with you. Claire talks about the importance of continuous learning, embracing discomfort, and the crucial role of language in leadership.
Have you ever been nervous about public speaking? We get that. We've been there, and we've learned some valuable lessons along the way. In our discussion, we confront our fears of public speaking and share our personal journey to overcoming it. One of the main takeaways? It's more important to deliver your message with conviction than seek approval from your audience. We also delve into the impact of ego on leadership, the power of growth over change, and the necessity of listening to our inner child.
But leadership isn't just about the work; it's about the leader too. We discuss the importance of self-care, touching on the basics of sleep, nutrition, exercise, and hydration. Get ready to gather some valuable insights and practical tips for becoming a more effective leader.
Please subscribe to the channel for more content! Theo James are a Manufacturing & Engineering Recruiter based in the North East, helping Manufacturing and Engineering firms grow across the UK. Please call us on 0191 5111 298
Hello, welcome to another episode of the Manufacturing Leads podcast with me, mark Bracknell, mice, director of Theo James Recruitment. On today's episode, we welcome the wonderful Claire Walton on the show. Claire Walton is a performance coach and best-selling author. Her business, which will be 10 years strong next year, is brilliantly titled Leaders are Mad. Claire. Prior to starting her business, was a senior HR professional in both retail and manufacturing, so she's definitely walked the walk and talked the talk. She's now teaching other people to be great leaders.
Speaker 1:So I couldn't wait to have Claire on the show for some tips and advice for me and, obviously, anyone else listening. So this was a really powerful episode where you can actually take lots of tangible tips away. We talked about the power of language, the power of words, both in its spoken sense and what words you're listening to when you're coaching the people. We're talking detail about confidence how to be more confident, getting used to being uncomfortable in order to be more comfortable. I asked for advice regarding morning stand-ups and, perhaps in a manufacturing or engineering setting, how to be better at that. Just general tips and advice about being a better, transparent leader how to coach people better, how to make them grow, how to make them perform. How transparent as a leader should you be? Just so many tips and takeaways in this one. I came away actually feeling like that little bit more of a better leader, which I'm sure you will as well.
Speaker 1:So please sit back and listen, as always massively appreciate if you haven't mind subscribing to the show, whether that's liking following, whatever platform you're listening or watching on. So thank you very much. Hope you enjoy the episode. Right, claire, welcome to the Manufacturing News podcast. How are you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm good. Thanks, good to be here. I've got my coffee ready in my Wonder Woman mug.
Speaker 1:Yes, nice bit of brand in that, Love it Right. First question, same question as everybody what does it mean to you to be a leader?
Speaker 2:Oh hey, I'll tell you what. First things first, bloody hard.
Speaker 1:It's hard, it's questioning it, yeah, and it's bloody hard yeah it's a bad question.
Speaker 2:Leadership's hard, mark, that's the first thing I would say. I mean and I'm coming from the perspective of having done it as well, as now coaching lots of people in leadership positions, and so I make no bones about it it's hard and it's got harder. Having said all of that, in the world of coaching we reframe all the time. So you know, it's challenging, and challenging and hard, if you like, can be a good thing. I mean it's leadership's uncomfortable, yeah, If you're doing leadership. So I think this is really interesting. To be honest, we could be an hour on this one question. So, warn you, but it's really interesting, right, if you think about it.
Speaker 2:Leaders, particularly these days, there's no certainty, right, and one of the things that we, as human beings, like the least is uncertainty. We really don't like it. So total uncertainty is, as the leader or air leader, you know, lot of uncertainty, unpredictability, even more so these days than when I used to be doing a big leadership role, which makes us uncomfortable. We're constantly having to almost, like you know, be on that edge of our discomfort. There's more if you're really leading, there's more discomfort than there's comfort and you've got to get really used to that. You've got to be continually learning, growing, adapting agility and growth as a human being, therefore, as a leader, you know that absolute name of the game. So so it's tough, but it's a good tough If you like a challenge, if you like to continually grow, learn and so on. If you don't, you're probably not leading, you're probably managing. And if you think of the word I love words if you think of the word managing, it's a bit like coping. You know what I mean. It's like just just managing. We say we'll even say something, says how are you? I could have said to you I'm just managing, you know, I'm just coping, I'm just, in other words, surviving, whereas leaders, leads are people who are taking us forward to the future. That's why there's so much uncertainty, because we don't know what the future is going to bring. Leaders are people who are in the future and leaders are people who leadership is about followership. There's another one Sam in cynic talks about that all the time. I don't know if you ever thought about it that way, but you know. So it's quite a privilege.
Speaker 2:I listened to one of your previous guests. Oh darn it, I can't remember his name now. I think it might be well, it was the very last podcast, I think, that they aired. And Clearly Drinks the Clearly Drinks guys, it must. Yeah, yeah, mick, yeah, sorry, sorry, sorry, nick. And he talks about leadership being a privilege. And it absolutely is, because to be a leader rather than specifically a manager and obviously there's management as an element of leadership but to be a leader, you've got to have followers, there's got to be people who are following your lead. Yeah, so you're in a privileged position because you're taking people somewhere in them, maybe strategically somewhere in your business. You're taking them somewhere in terms of how you're growing and developing them to achieve their potential. You're taking them somewhere in terms of you know they're in huge. I'm going to show for a sec so you can contribute, but I could borrow. It's huge.
Speaker 1:No, I like it, and there's loads to unpack there as well. The discomfort one I find quite interesting because I agree and I think I probably found that out by well, not by chance, but it wasn't planned and I think you suddenly find yourself being a little bit more comfortable in things that previously you felt that level of discomfort but I don't think I ever sort of set out to go. I'm going to force myself to do this to make it easier. But actually maybe people should have means that advice you give to people to say, look, you have to try and get outside your comfort zone to feel more comfortable. You say 100%.
Speaker 2:So, if you think about it, the only way we're going to get comfortable with something is to get well practised at that thing. Yeah, you know, so often I'll talk about confidence, I run group workshops and confidence the one to one coaching is around, you know, building a person's confidence and, quite simply, when some people can be more confident generally than other people, yeah, it's a bit of self esteem thing and you know we can do some kind of like therapeutic type coaching with people around that. But even if you're a particularly confident person let's say which, for example, I am, possibly you are there are things that we are really not confident at all. Yeah, so while I'm talking, you think of something on a scale of one to 10, that you'd be like a one, two or three on in terms of confidence, right? So while I'm talking, if you maybe think about that, so for me recently a non, a non, well, kind of a non leadership thing, kind of is a leadership thing, actually, let's play in a minute.
Speaker 2:But a thing that I wasn't competent at, because I've never done it before, was stand up comedy. Right, I'd never shut up for 10 minutes on a stage at a comedy night and try to make people laugh and that you know. So I didn't try and do it and I'd have felt really, really, really uncomfortable without going in some training in the skills and putting in some practice and rehearsal and so on. Before I did it don't get me wrong, mark I was a tiny little bit nervous you need to be a little bit nervous to perform and but I did it because I've gone through that process of learning from others, learning from various different sources, practicing, getting feedback, practicing again and then just giving it a go. That's how we develop confidence in the specific things. Then the more things that make us uncomfortable that we then develop the competence in learning in a variety of different ways and then practice, practice, practice the more confident we become at that.
Speaker 2:From a leadership perspective again, that's something I encourage leaders to do all the time is constantly move out that envelope of what you're already skilled at, and you're going to have to remain a leader to keep moving people forward, inspiring people, getting people to follow you in the world that we live in now. So you've got to keep pushing that out there. In terms of the new skills, I mean the latest new thing for us in leadership roles is learning about AI and how we can augment AI to make us more effective, make our organisations effective. That can be quite scary. Most things that are scary are actually really quite good for us.
Speaker 2:But again we've got to sort of have a go and just going back to the role model thing and then I'll let you talk about what I asked you so in by doing the stand-up comedy. Part of that was to prove the point again to my client base to say, look, anything I'm suggesting you do to develop you as a leader, I'm prepared to do so. I'm prepared to be uncomfortable. So I'm not sitting here now in my non, if you like, traditional leadership role, not prepared to do the sort of things I recommend.
Speaker 1:And what was your like? What was the stand-up like?
Speaker 2:It was great. I mean, I'm not going to be a stand-up comedian. I wouldn't say that I wouldn't be. I'm not saying anything.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And if anyone ever asked me to go and do my set at an event or anything, you know I'm open to office, you know? Yeah, yeah, but that was good. I got laughs, I got them in the right place. Nice, I did what I was supposed to do. I remembered everything and I delivered it all and my timing was good and all the rest of it.
Speaker 1:So that is probably. You know, if you look what, if you talk about public speaking, stand-up comedy is probably the pinnacle. You know, like you said, I've seen you on stage, you're natural, you're confident, but so for you to be scared of doing something like that is that next step Up, as next, like you say, you know, you know, you're actually, you've actually physically got to make people laugh, which is a completely different medium than your skill set on someone, which is very different.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh, absolutely.
Speaker 2:And again, that was one of the things for me is I've done a couple of things this year about really controlling the nerves so that you've got enough nervousness to be effective without the nervousness that can then prevent the parts of your brain that need to switch on to perform to switch on.
Speaker 2:So I've really been, that's been part of my growth this year, and again, deliberately so, because in my leadership role as a coach, again, what I, what I want to do, is constantly practice the sorts of things and explore and try out the sorts of things that might be useful for some of my clients and and that shows up in a lot of the people that come to see me who are leaders and there can be leaders of huge, you know, multi million pounds organisations and yet nerves, particularly public speaking, even even if it's in front of their own team or peer group actually, often peer group is worse, much worse than team or at the border. Whatever it might be, doesn't always have to be kind of like out in public, it can be within their organisations. It makes them so nervous that it affects their performance. So again, it's kind of like a demonstrate to my own clients the sort of things that you can, and I use various different tools to keep those nerves where they need to be, like it like it.
Speaker 1:Well, mine will definitely be public speaking. Public speaking, without doubt, actually. Actually it's not, like you say, links in the exact way you just said. You know, I am comfortable with my team now, probably because I've done it enough to be comfortable at it. Yeah, I'm still uncomfortable delivering to, you know, like a big pitch to a big client, if I think the stakes are quite high unless I really really practice. And then it's funny because I did, we did like a really important pitch for the week and I probably talk for 15 minutes. I would say.
Speaker 1:In the first two minutes I felt I felt the, I felt me going too quickly, I didn't feel any flow, I felt uncomfortable, I was, I was looking at them too much, I was looking at their reactions too much, and then, probably slide three, I suddenly felt this, I don't know this, this sort of wave of comfortness and I knew what I was talking about. And then I was in flow and I was great, but I was literally like two different people. Yeah, it was just. You know, it was bizarre really, because I practiced the first bit the same as I practiced the second bit, but it was, it was, yeah, it was, it was. It was night and day really.
Speaker 2:So what do you think was happening in those first few minutes? That stopped happening after the first few minutes.
Speaker 1:I think maybe my my subconscious was looking at, was was trying to get some signs that it was going okay, potentially, you know, I think I think I need that confidence. I think if somebody had gone wrong this start, I wouldn't probably have had that at the end. So I think, subconsciously I was looking for, I was looking for reactions, I was looking for a couple of nods here and there to go you've got this, you know, and then I really enjoyed it. That was the bizarre side, you know, suddenly felt like this this is good to go, but it was. It was so frustrating.
Speaker 1:I know if I did another big pitch tomorrow, I'll be that little bit less nervous or anxious about it, particularly if it was the same pitch, but I'd still get that initial, initial sort of nerve about it and I still I don't have sleepless nights, but I still wake up with that, that nervousness I've got. I've got big, big day today. So it's, it's frustrating, but, like you say, what is the right level of of nervousness? Because I sometimes look at people and go, god, I wish I was like you. I wish I was just, I was just, I was just, I was just, I was just, I was just, I was just a duck to water and I, you know, I just that level. I wish I didn't get nerves, but I don't know, maybe everyone does, maybe everyone's winging it.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean it's interesting because if you read biographies or kind of like, see or listen to podcasts or whatever, of people who perform on stage, kind of like actors or comedians or whatever, practically all of them will say about how nervous they get, which I find quite interesting because, again, it's like you know, in terms of I mean, in my work I study a lot about, you know, how do we make the most of of our potential to perform? How do we make the most of our brain? We're understanding how our brain works, and so on and so forth, and so, too much nervousness is definitely unhelpful, but a certain amount is really good. Now, if I link it back to what you've said there, right, I don't know if you realise this, but again, I can't help but notice what people, exactly what people say. So you've said, unless I really practice, right, yeah, so you already know that you have to. You know you have to practice more for the bigger occasions, yeah, and so one thing for you would be to kind of like say, well, you know, is my degree of practice that I do, you know, relative to the occasion. So if it's a particularly big occasion do I practice more than if it's small, because you know you've identified for yourself that that's what you need to do.
Speaker 2:Second thing would be practice what specifically? So if we think about what you said, it's in those first few minutes. That's when you're particularly nervous, and you said that was because during that time you're looking out for signs that it's going well. Okay, the problem with that, as you identified for yourself, is if you happen to read a signal that you interpret as it's not going well and there's a big thing there, because you just might be interpreting it wrong, yeah, then that can kind of set you back and you're not going to perform well in the second bit either. So you see a car relying on those things. So I would suggest one of the things you do is not practicing what you currently practice in when you're live, which is taking too much nut of actually how people are kind of responding to you and looking for those things, because that could actually end up being your downfall. That you think about it. Yeah, it's good point.
Speaker 1:So I guess a good question will be on the back of that. If you think about manufacturing, obviously you've got history and HSTRA director in your big manufacturing firms as part of their daily practice, typically a supervisor or manager will have a stand up in the morning, typically and I'm just thinking of a production supervisor who's been made to book some manager and suddenly the days come that they are the one. They've stood and listened to these for years, but it's now their turn and that's which, suddenly, where they've got to be the ones that are almost going to question the people around them. They might be their friends and they've got to get over those nerves. What advice would you have from someone doing that? Would you say doing the stand up the first week? Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:So it's the same of whether or not you're doing a stand up in like a huddle, you know, on the kind of like you know, shop floor, factory floor type thing, or you pitching or me doing comedy. The same things regardless would be reframe the feelings that you have, the sensations that you call nerves, nervousness, anxiety, et cetera. Reframe that as feelings of excitement. Okay.
Speaker 1:Link that too.
Speaker 2:You actually said they get their chance, they get their turn, they get their turn to stand up Right. So you link that excitement too. What would you be excited about? I'll take you back to when I used to be a leader and I got the opportunity to stand up in front of hundreds, or sometimes thousands, of people in our organisations to speak to them. I would be so excited because I've got that privilege of having all eyes and all ears on what I'm about to say. So, rather than being scared by that fact, I'd be switched on by that fact. I'd be excited by the privilege of all eyes and all ears at this point in time around me, and I have an opportunity to share what I feel really passionate about, in order to make them three things Feel something, so I've decided in advance what I want them to feel. Think something I've decided in advance what I want them to think. And finally, as a result of what they think and feel, what do I want them to go and do? So I'm framing, even if it's a morning huddle on the shop floor, it's the same sort of thing when I was doing general management rather than HR director. It was back in. It wasn't manufacturing, but it was similar. It was ASDA and there are massive similarities between reseller and manufacturing and we had huddles, I think ASDA.
Speaker 2:Back then in the 80s and 90s we started the whole huddle thing on the shop floor and it's that morning thing, it's the excitement of it's a new day, what's possible, what can we achieve, what can we do, even if we're going to talk about the problems that exist, you know Elsie's not turned up on Checkout 9 or whatever. You know it's like. You know how are we going to turn that challenge into an opportunity for someone to? You know, practice, the skill that's not practiced before, by going on the checkout for the first time, or whatever. You know it's like it's just everything.
Speaker 2:You can turn it, you can frame it into opportunity, possibility and it's exciting. So when you use that sort of language, when you frame it that sort of way, and if you think like that, if you feel like that, that is going to come across and get other people to think and feel in the same way, and you're always connecting the thinking and the feeling with well, what do I want you to do as a consequence? Me? That's a real simple like frame of reference for anyone, whether it's morning huddles, evening huddles, twilight Shift or whatever, or it's standing on a stage and talking to thousands of people.
Speaker 1:What I really like about that is you're almost caring about yourself a lot more, because I think if I'm thinking about it, you know I first started doing it I was almost pissed off if Jamie or Tracer whoever they are was yawning or not listening and I was just thinking too much about it. Maybe it's probably linked to the ego thing and not feeding your ego, but what you're talking about there is very much those embedded in your own values and your own brain system, rather than everything about them. But you can't control that to some extent.
Speaker 2:Jamie might be sitting there yawning because Jamie's tired, because he was up last night with the twins that are only six months old and never sleep.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:We worry too much, and it's an interesting one, because you probably have some people that will say, well, I don't know when it's there, should you not be concerned with your audience? Now here's my thing. We are as human beings. We've evolved to look at the negative right. So you could be, and I've done this before myself when I spoke at an event years ago. There's about 150 women there.
Speaker 2:It was one of these international women's day things and I was the keynote speaker and I focused in on this one woman who happened to be like in the middle of 150 people, you know, like halfway back, halfway right, dead center, where I was looking most of the time, and she seemed to be giving me a look that I interpreted as who the hell are you and what do you, what the hell do you know, sort of thing, and the whole time that was running through my mind as a second conversation. Somehow I still did a pretty good job. She came up to me at the end. She was the first person to come up and say that was absolutely amazing, really Right. We get it wrong, mark, but we but we. You know, it's the way our brains work. So ever since that in particular, again, I kind of have to acknowledge I'm thinking about the audience, because I'm thinking what do I want the audience to think, feel and do? Yeah, and how am I going to perform? At my best for the audience. I've done my prep, you know. I've I've slide deck or not. In my standup comedy there was no slide deck, which is quite scary to do, but, slide deck or not, I know my content.
Speaker 2:Another message I'm trying to get across I care about it. I'm not, I'm not delivering, I'm not winging it. I, you know, don't win it. That's another thing Don't ever bloody wing it. You know, never come in and go. I've come into this with you talking about a subject I'm very passionate about. I know everything we're going to talk about. I'm really passionate about, well, don't be homework. You know I've prepared, I don't. You know, don't wing it. As a leader, it's a privilege to be a leader. You don't win it. So you do all of that. That's you caring about your audience and what your audience think in the moment when you stood there, though it's, you know, you've got to do the things and concentrate on the things that will deliver the best of you.
Speaker 1:Yeah love that, but you've. You're nearly 10 years into this congratulations, by the way which is, which is breathing itself. So I know you're nearly 10 years into your own business, which is incredible. What a surprise, you would you say, in terms of you know if you think about starting your business, in terms of you know the positions you're in. It was a big leap doing so. What a surprise you that, the amount you've worked with some brilliant leaders. What's been one of the biggest surprises, would you say, along the way, for you.
Speaker 2:Oh God, that's a great question. That's a question you didn't prep me on. Oh yeah, I agree with this. It's a great question. Actually, I'll just do the first one that comes to mind is there's a few things. First one comes to mind is how there's a lot of talk about how men and women are different and how that links into male and female styles of leadership and so on, and I would say that, you know, behaviorally we can come across quite different, so we can be here in quite different ways.
Speaker 2:There's some quite obvious things that get written about in terms of research, articles and talks about in regard to that, but I get to see behind the scenes of the behavior. Yeah, so I have people sometimes in here. This is the office that people come to, come to the office. I've got to see them, whatever we do things virtually, and I get to understand what's going on behind the behavior. And that's the same. It's the same.
Speaker 2:You know a lot of the behaviors that come out, and let's call them the unhelpful behaviors, because a lot of the time, what we're trying to do is improve behaviors, to improve out, improve outcomes and proof of success, and it's insecurity, it's defensiveness, it's the survival, everything linked back again to the survival instinct. The amount of work that I do now that I wouldn't have realized 10 years ago. That links back to that evolutionary kind of instinct within us to defend ourselves. That's probably the biggest thing. And then how it links to the male, female behaviors, if you like, and you know I know we've got more than male and female, but that's the majority of the people that happen to come to me.
Speaker 1:Apologies for interrupting this podcast for a very quick 30 second picture of my business. Theo James are a specialist in manufacturing and engineering recruitment search firm based in Seam in the Northeast. If you're looking for any staff or new opportunity yourself from a semi-skilled level, write the way up to C-suite executive and please get in touch. We have a specialist consultant in each discipline ready to help. I'm extremely proud of what we've built over the years and I'd love to extend that service out to you. Thank you, enjoy the podcast Interesting.
Speaker 1:So I guess you can link defensiveness, I guess, with someone not wanting to change to some extent. I mean, a lot of part of your job is trying to take them to a certain place and they've been defensive about doing so. I think if you look at manufacturing engineering, it's always trying to go for a change and there's always resistance to change from certain people in the team. If you're working with a manager and they needed to take a business from A to B, but the team they're working with they've got real resistance in their job to try and break them from that, what advice would you give them, you think?
Speaker 2:Okay, first thing's first. Again, I'll say I was into words, and I wasn't into words that much 10 years ago.
Speaker 1:You listen. I bet you listen a lot more now to what people say.
Speaker 2:Absolutely listening more and seeing the power of the language that we use with each other and also the power of the language that's even in our own heads when we're thinking our thoughts and believing our beliefs, which are kind of the same thing. So here's one on change. Don't use the word change for start.
Speaker 1:Yeah, go for it, yeah.
Speaker 2:Change. You know you mentioned the word ego earlier and again. Ego, it's our sense of identity, our sense of who we are. And if you think, particularly people in leadership management roles, a lot of people in leadership management roles and again this comes up over and over again more than I thought it would 10 years ago is the term which I don't like and I don't use it. Other people come and tell me oh, I think I've got imposter syndrome right. So again, it's sense of identity.
Speaker 2:The sense of identity is challenged because the more they get promoted, they get more responsibility, they get bigger titles. The expectations that they pile upon themselves, never mind what other people might expect of them, starts to get them to a point where, for a lot of people, they are in a position, in a role where they didn't expect to be. Yeah, most people I work with will say at some point I didn't think I'd get to be the one that does X, yeah, as the CEO, as the MD, as the engineering director or whatever. Because there's still that little boy, that little girl you know inside of themselves that. And again, that's another thing that comes up over and over again. It's the little kid inside of us that most of the time is doing the thinking and the feeling.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, with a doubt.
Speaker 2:Right. So that's, you know, we're working with that all the time. So when you're talking about, you've got a leader who's trying to get people, you know, within a manufacturing organization, to do some things differently, right, talk about do some things differently. Don't talk about change, christ, change. Hang on a minute. You know, and all of those, you know, little kids inside of us, kind of like going panic. You know, someone expects me to change. If you're a senior leader who's talking to other leaders, even more so they've got a huge sense of that. Hang on a minute. But what I don't want to change, what got me here and created the success that I never expected? Right, because that makes me really nervous. Because it got me here, right.
Speaker 2:So, in all cases, whoever your audience is, talk about growth, right, and imagine, I quite like the metaphor of the tree. You know, I've got a tree literally in front of my eyeliner, above my screen now, and you think of that tree and you think of all of those established roots, right, and the trunk. You know it's kind of like if I want my tree to change and become, I don't know, a bush or a cloud, I'm looking at the stuff that's out there. Still, you know it's like. How does it change into that? It's ridiculous because it's got these roots really strongly going underneath and so on.
Speaker 2:But how do I encourage it to groin in another direction? Yeah, I can probably get that tree to groin in another direction. Yeah, I can get a person to groin in another direction. I can get the leaves to become greener. Yeah, I can get it to be taller. I can get it to be wider. I can maybe go out and do a bit of bonsai with it, right, whatever, right. So growth. I think growth is so much more helpful. Also, when we hear the word growth, so I say the word growth to you. Right, as a department, we're gonna grow as an organization, we're gonna grow as an individual. I'm gonna help you grow. How do you feel towards that word?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's much more positive than change, isn't it? There's no fear there. No one loses.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's positive, isn't it the minute I say change?
Speaker 1:Yeah, you see, the negatives Gets back to what you say. That inbuilt, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I bristle. I literally I can feel my skin start to bristle when you say a change. It's like whoa, hang on a minute, yeah, yeah. And the other thing is so what we're always trying to do as leaders, as a coach we're trying to move people towards something as well, right towards as opposed to to get them kind of like running away from something. You say change, I wanna run away from it. You say growth, I wanna move towards it. So you've got people engage straight away. So that's one of the sort of key things. But the other thing is you use the term resistance. I mean, in my previous roles I did a hell of a lot around strategic change and we called it strategic change back then. I wouldn't now, but we did back then. One of the things that I did back then I've gotta be honest, mark that I would not do now, with everything I understand about.
Speaker 1:That's part of it, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, that's part of it, so you can see the side of it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, part of my growth. So back then, though, whenever we were doing the strategic change stuff that I was responsible for, what we did, though because we always did that very well, I'd like to say under my leadership was understand resistance. What creates the resistance? Right. So people will resist what they don't know, yeah, but when you're taking them towards something that thing I said right off at the start about leadership we want it in the future. It's unpredictable, it's uncertain, so people are gonna resist some of that. To acknowledge those feelings, respect that's a normal human reaction. Allow people to have that normal human reaction. I think one thing that people do very naively in leadership management roles when it comes to change is they will try and emphasize and I did some of this back then, if I'm honest. Oh, we've learned, we've gotta sell them on the change. So we're gonna sell them on what's gonna be great over here, and we're gonna give them the what's in it for me.
Speaker 2:Right gonna look at, we're gonna get into their heads and we're gonna look at what they think is gonna be good about where we're gonna take them and that's what we're gonna sell them on Right over here, thinking first of all, particularly in this day and age I don't even know whether or not that's a certainty whatever we're selling them on. So I'm still nervous, right, and even if that sounds great, it's that bit in between that I don't learn the knife. You know transition. You know the stuff I've gotta do in order to be this. I always give people simple analogies, right? You know, like a lot of us, we'd like to be fitter, stronger, slimmer, you know whatever it might be right. So we know all relate to that. Don't mind what job you do. So it's like we're not gonna say I mean, it's like even giving up smoking or giving up drink or whatever it's like, yeah, I can imagine that, great, brilliant. What I don't wanna do is all the stuff I have to do to get there and stay there.
Speaker 1:That's the bit.
Speaker 2:So we need to acknowledge people's resistance and work through that with them and be patient and respectful. And we've gotta be honest about what we're selling them. Yeah, don't sell them a blooming dream right, cause they won't believe you. Don't sell them all the positives, cause they won't believe you. Be honest, be open, be transparent and demonstrate that humility of we haven't got all the answers right. We'd like to get there. You know things might change along the way and so on and so forth, and we want to involve for you in it and we kind of understand it's tough and you know yeah.
Speaker 1:Do you think you mentioned there the transparency side and the humility side? Do you think you'll know more than most how management leadership has changed over the last 10, 20 years? That transparency piece, how much has that changed, would you say? Cause I think I've seen a change in people and certainly my only issue with God the conference to be transparent. Have you noticed that yourself?
Speaker 2:I just wanted a question about a question of clarification. Do you mean transparent in terms of almost about themselves, or do you mean about managing the business right? So it's more about themselves Exactly that Cause.
Speaker 1:I think my experience personally is that managers years ago saw it was a complete weakness and the managers or leaders must have all the answers. They must be the ones with the answers and I think there's been a slight tip to that. But I also sometimes worry how can you go too far the other way? Can you go too transparent? So actually that level of confidence they have in you is not quite there. So I think I bat with that and I think others do as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a really good one actually because and again, it comes up in coaching a lot. So we'll talk about authenticity and we'll talk about more humility. But there's a big conversation with a chemistry call the other day ended up being a new client. He was kind of like saying I worry that I'm too humble and I've too much humility, and so on. And I said, well, yeah, there is such. I think there is such a thing as being overly transparent, but I still think we can be much more transparent than most of us are without being overly so. So I still think there's work actually for people to do on showing up as a human being, right. And so again, we'll go back to that word ego. I think a lot of people carry way too much too much of their ego in that leadership role is attached to. I am supposed to have all the answers.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Too much of the ego is attached to that Versus. I am supposed to know what I'm doing. They're two different things. There's a great piece of research that all went into a book which we can reference in the show notes and stuff by two leadership researchers called Kuz and Posner, and the book's short title is credibility and it looks at over a 27 year study where they surveyed three separate times what followers wanted from their leaders.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and coming up in the top three, four. Top three four the importance of competence, right. So you should be competent as a leader. You should absolutely know what leadership is and you should develop the skills of leadership and there's no flaming excuse not to. It's a privilege to have the job, go under your homework and get good at it Right, sermon over. But part of that will be acknowledging that, in terms of having all of the answers, how the hell could you? How the hell could you Right, particularly in the work? I mean Christown, 55, I started work at 18. My first management role was at 18. Back then it was a completely different world. We didn't even have internet back then.
Speaker 1:I mean, it's like you know You're 18, haven't you? So I've been different.
Speaker 2:Exactly, your world was probably small enough. Yeah yeah, but you really quickly to have a lot of the answers.
Speaker 2:No way now, though, in the kind of fast moving and complex world which is fantastic, and you don't need to either, but you need to have the competencies of leadership, because that's about getting the answers out of the you know the people that are around you I used to hate the term HR, human resources, right, but if you think about that word resource and tap into the human beings around you, are incredibly resourceful and every single one these days can have free access to chapter GPT 3.5 and other things.
Speaker 2:Right, you know, I mean, you could do an MBA content wise without going and doing an MBA, like I did, and paying a fortune and going to Newcastle and turning up to. You could just do it by Googling stuff and chapter GPT and stuff these days. You true? Oh, that's it. The resourcefulness of the people that we lead is unbelievable. So why in earth would we even want to think that we would have all of the answers? And a key leadership competency is to be able to engage people so that they want to share those answers, those ideas, those criticisms, those questions with you.
Speaker 1:So I guess, as a leader, you're almost if I've got this right, you're almost better working on the way you communicate and lead rather than wasting time, I guess, trying to find all the answers, because, like you say, the answers are out there, click of a button. It's just the way we deliver them now 100%.
Speaker 2:And you know, I mean I've not necessarily thought about it this way before. I thought I was like I'm going to pitch the work. Now, I don't mean to, but it's like it's just a curtain to me, that it's like spend more of your time with a coach, yeah, yeah. You know, developing that leadership competence right Then, like doing that tedious, boring task that just fuels your insecurity, of trying to get more information at your fingertips just in case you know someone asks you so you're not caught off guard.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I completely resonate that I'm eight years into own a business and I still have a little bit of discomfort somewhere because I did a media degree and a careers guidance degree. I've not done an MBA or a business degree and I would like to have one, but it's just to feed my own ego Really. If, going well, I've got one now I can run a business all of a sudden when I've done it for a year. So, yeah, I resonate with that massively. Just on that, what would you say? A sort of lasting, sort of tip, if you like, in terms of as a leader? I think most leaders now, I think you're always looking to try to better themselves. I think you know that's been a big shift with podcasts and so forth. What advice would you have leaders to the main things to concentrate on? That could be daily habits, that could be habits anything you would say to try and prove them as a leader, would you say?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would say start with the basics. I'm from a retail background originally, then I've done some manufacturing, then I've done all sorts and so on and so forth. And one thing again it's in common with retail and manufacturing is we always talk about going back to the basics. Yeah, get the basics right. Get the basics right, don't we? Absolutely foundational and I'd say the same with you as a leader. And the basics are about you know what I call your personal peak performance strategies. Make sure they're in place. I mean, I run workshops and stuff on all of this. We do the one-to-one stuff on all of this.
Speaker 2:Sometimes people come in here and they've got some high-faluting goal of what they're trying to achieve in terms of their personal growth. And when I'm asking them some basic questions about how good their sleep is and their nutrition and their exercise habits, their hydration, et cetera, et cetera, right, I'm the thinking I'm on a minute. You know I thought we were doing executive coaching and I'm like well, you know, your ability to do your job is going to be affected by whether or not you've just got those basic performance indicators right. Yeah, they will affect you know, like Mark, you will have much more capability than potentially you bring to any situation than it, provided you have all of those basics right. So you know, if we go back to the example you gave before about you said you know, sometimes you'll have a bit of a sleepless night before maybe a big pitch because of the nerves thing, and it's kind of like this sleep is the number one indicator of performance, actually in anything getting really good quality sleep. So you've got to get all of those things right so that you show up both in terms of the cognitive piece so our ability to think clearly, our ability to access the right words in the right order, be really articulate, solve really complex problems, make really difficult decisions all that cognitive work is affected by all of those things. And then, secondly, as a leader, it's our emotional intelligence, so it's our ability to manage the emotional reactions to situations, which it gets massively influenced by all those personal people performing things.
Speaker 2:So getting all of those right, which means and because loads of your listeners will know what they are and they'll know what they're supposed to do, but they're probably not doing it and there's loads that are doing it, so I don't want to be patronizing We've got to get the systems in place that allow us to do it so, and I'm massive on this.
Speaker 2:So, for example, you talk about sleep because it's the number one right? If you don't have very strong boundaries in place about how late you'll work in order to allow yourself the opportunity to switch off, in order to allow yourself the opportunity to go to sleep at a sensible hour, in order to allow yourself the opportunity to have those seven to nine hours of sleep that's, generally speaking, recommended for peak performance, then you won't get them. So it doesn't matter how much you know that's what you should do and how much you aspire to do that, if you don't put the systems in place that enable that to happen, it ain't going to happen. And that would just be sort of one example. And then, alongside that, the second thing would be about priorities. Most people will come in here and, as part of whatever the goals are that they want to achieve, they will tend to say that one of their biggest issues is they've got too much to do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, mm-hmm yeah.
Speaker 2:Right, right. Well, you can only do so much. So decide off that too much to do. What are the most important things that will make the biggest difference, have the greatest impact? And having done that, you schedule that. Then there's no excuse for this anymore. You schedule those things into your electronic diary. Use all of the technology solutions available to have those things prioritized in the way you planned your time. I mean you can flex it once they're in and again short cutting this because of time. But I mean I'd very happily have if any of your listeners commented on whatever goes with this podcast, we can somehow, via you, send out to them my kind of like crib sheet on how to do this sort of thing, because it's so fundamental.
Speaker 2:Everyone will have heard of the example of the vase or jar and you put the big stones in before the little stones, and this and that and the other. Right, well, concepts are great, aren't they? But what your manufacturing leaders want to know, bit like most of my clients says, I don't want concepts, claire. Well, what do I actually have to do? Talk to me in plain English. What do I actually have to do? What I have to do is get a hold on your calendar. Don't let other people get a hold on it. Don't just think that spontaneity is OK. It's not. You know, you've got to plan for the most important things in terms of how you're going to spend your time. Be prepared to flex, because life sometimes requires you to flex, but plan for your priorities, and people do that.
Speaker 1:I'll have a copy of that myself If you don't mind. Please, Claire, that'll be, That'll be lovely. To the quickfire questions. So you've not had this? Who's the best man you've had and why you ever think back the best man you've had?
Speaker 2:Do you know? I listen to this on mixed podcast, you see, so I can't get caught out by that one. I would love to be able to put a number of my managers together to create one perfect one, because I don't have anybody. I've been really honest and apologies to anybody that I've ever worked for. I don't think anyone is to be fair. I certainly wasn't. This one was absolutely amazing. But there were some real great qualities about the guy called Jim Spittle. We'll tag him in on this at some point. You'll love this. Pretty sure Jim's retired now.
Speaker 2:I worked for him when I was at Dixon Stars Group as their HR director for the supply chain. He was on the In For A Year interim and the best thing about Jim he was you couldn't face Jim at all. He was a bit older generation. I'm sure you won't mind me saying he was a gentleman. He was an absolutely blooming gentleman and I mean that in a positive sense, a little bit like the old generation. But he had such a sense of humour and he was so straightforward and he was so honest. Every now and again we exchange the odd little comments on social media, so he'd probably come one top top of my list. But I've got to add in there.
Speaker 2:I did work for a very inspirational guy called Alan Layton. He was the CEO for Azzerone at One Point, well, actually for quite a few years. And then I worked for him again at Royal Mail Group when I was a corporate change director there and he was our chairman and he a couple of really key things about Alan. He was always about keep it simple, right, big big thing Again, retail is detail, and I believe manufacturing is exactly the same, and he'd also. He was very visionary, yeah, so he was very good at painting a picture for you of how things could be and should be and so on, and he was very good. He was a man of the people as well. So there may be some of the qualities of those two people. But, jim, do you notice my heart a little bit more?
Speaker 1:Do you remember that detail, his retail quote from my time in retail? I think it was probably overused by my mind. I think you use it every day, so it's a bit like wallpaper, but it was the first time I heard it that I liked it. Nice. Biggest influence from business entertainment sport in world Anything to think of.
Speaker 2:Ooh, do you know what this might be? A again, I thought about this one after the next. This might be naff, but clearly this is now going to be my favourite podcast yeah, alongside all the other podcasts that I've appeared on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. So I think I've already said it before.
Speaker 2:I do like to listen to podcasts a lot Probably my favourite medium and I have to say Stephen Bartlett, I think, has become very, very good. He used to make me cringe a bit but to be fair, I think we were seeing him grow up whilst he was doing his job, and why I think he and his podcast is such a big influence is because what I really admire is his podcasts have gone content-wise from all being about how do you do some of the what I'm going to call the obvious leadership stuff Most leaders know about what they should be doing, and it's gone into again that detail of how do you make sure that you are showing up as your best.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I completely agree. In fact I was having a team of wife of a night and asked her who were six people would be dead or alive, who you could have at dinner party, and she struggled a bit. I think she went you're number one or deaf. We see even Bartlett. I was like, yeah, yeah, it would be. Actually, I agree, I think it's. I mean that book he's just brought out. I think it's brilliant. Little bite size, 10 minute tips, superb. Three things that make up a good leader, three words, anything that comes to mind.
Speaker 2:Honesty Vision.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Competence.
Speaker 1:Nice Best book audio book podcast. You've ever heard Anything that's really inspired you.
Speaker 2:Oh God, honestly, I'm such an avid reader. It's really difficult, but I would encourage people to read more books about how our brains work and I read the really quite academic stuff because they're quite like all the laboratory kind of work behind all of this. But actually one of my favorite books is by Dr Tara Swart. She's a neuroscientist who's now brought a neuroscience into the neuroscience of leadership. Some people will argue she's kind of oversimplified it, but I think we have to. We have to simplify things. Our brains are lazy. Well, human beings are lazy. So so her book, which is about the neuroscience of leadership, dr Tara Swart and obviously alongside your podcast, she also has a podcast and her podcast is very good, excellent, and I listened to your episode with Laura recently.
Speaker 1:That was great as well, so that that was a good one. But, look, thank you, thank you so much. This has been great. I often think. I often think I'm lucky and when I'm recording these because I get this free training hour with people like yourself, and it's very much a case, basically Because I look, I know I've learned a lot from this episode just little.
Speaker 1:I like ones like this where it's just little gems of things where you can go, yeah, I'm going to do that, I'm going to do that tomorrow, and just, I think sometimes we listen to people like you. It just gives you the confidence to go what am I waiting for? You know, this is this, is this is inside of me now. I just need to make sure I do something about it, and that very much the case.
Speaker 1:Naturally, what I really liked is is the importance of the language, not only from what we say, but what others say. So I think one action I'm going to take from this episode is I'm going to listen to people more in terms of exactly what they say. So I think sometimes in the management situation, I'm probably thinking about the next bit of advice I'm going to give them. I don't know how much I'm really listening to what they're saying and really taking that on board. So whether you're meant to or not, that's one thing you have definitely part on with that. So thank you very much. This has been superb, so I really appreciate it. Thanks, claire.
Speaker 2:You're welcome, I enjoyed it too. Thanks a lot, mark.