Embracing Emotional Intelligence: Paul Cheetham's Insights on Leadership and Personal Growth

Discover the profound impact of emotional intelligence on leadership with our esteemed guest, Paul Cheetham. As a seasoned expert in HR and entrepreneurship, Paul joins us to unravel the intricacies of emotions in guiding teams and making pivotal decisions. We venture together into the transformative realm of self-awareness, where the art of managing and parenting converge, revealing that the essence of leadership flourishes through a deep understanding of oneself. Our dialogue takes us from personal anecdotes of emotional challenges, like grappling with physical pain, to the strategic balance of the thinking and feeling brains in our professional lives.

Embrace the journey of growth through the lens of feedback—how it shapes us and our decisions as leaders. We ponder the delicate dance of receiving and filtering critiques, the power behind radical candor, and the path to creating a culture that values honest exchanges. Paul and I delve into personal growth narratives, sharing experiences from emotional intelligence courses and the balancing act between empathy and neutrality in HR scenarios. It's about transforming not just our professional approaches but also the way we connect with others and view ourselves.

As we wrap up our conversation, we reflect on the authenticity that fuels our drive to lead and the passion that aligns our work with our personal values. We underscore the critical role of intrinsic motivation and resilience in confronting life's adversities, and the importance of mentorship and genuine emotional engagement. Join us for a thought-provoking episode that promises to ignite self-reflection and inspire a leadership style that resonates with your authentic self, fostering a positive impact wherever you go.

Please subscribe to the channel for more content! Theo James are a Manufacturing & Engineering Recruiter based in the North East, helping Manufacturing and Engineering firms grow across the UK. Please call us on 0191 5111 298

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Emotions drive people. People drive performance. This is a little teaser in today's episode. My name is Mark Bracknell. I'm the Marketing Director of Theo James Recruitment. Welcome to a new episode of the Manufacturing Leaders Podcast. Today we welcome on Paul Cheaton. Paul has a history of being a HR professional before leaving the full-time employment to start his own business. Understanding, working with businesses, specifically around emotions and emotional intelligence. I couldn't wait to have Paul on. Paul is someone who I have worked closely with. He's worked with my team, he's worked with my clients. He does a lot with the manufacturing space and we really dug into understanding yourself, understand your emotions, how that can have an effect when you're managing people.

Speaker 1: 0:48

This episode is going to challenge you. It's going to really make you reflect and analyse what sort of thinker you are, how you are at work, how you are at home. We had comparisons to parenting, to management. It's really going to make you stop, listen and think about what you do on a day-to-day basis to try and get the best out of your people but actually, more importantly, get the best out of yourself. And that was the overriding message for me that everything starts from from you and if you can analyze your thoughts and you can do those little things differently. But actually, more importantly, if you can really understand why you do something in the first place, then you can start to look to change that.

Speaker 1: 1:33

Um, this was a great episode. It was powerful. Um, you're going to learn a lot from this and I'd really appreciate any feedback on this one. Um, paul is so please check him out, please follow him on LinkedIn, but for now, please subscribe to the show. Like, sit back, have a coffee, watch, listen, whatever you want to do and hopefully you enjoy the episode. Thank you very much. Excellent right. A massive warm welcome to Paul Cheats, someone I know extremely well and I've had the benefit of working with myself myself, so I'm really looking forward to this one. How are you, paul?

Speaker 2: 2:08

Good today. I think I just quickly alluded before this started. I've got a bit of an infected thumb so this is like dissipating so I don't want to put any. You know people off their cornflakes or whatever, but yeah, so aside from that, I actually feel quite relieved and light mind and spirit today, so maybe it's a good day for a podcast. I'm glad it wasn't on Monday this week I think I was feeling quite in pain and tense and anxious and stuff like that.

Speaker 1: 2:36

So, basically, if anyone's watching on YouTube, switch over to Spotify or Apple now so you can just listen to him, Right? The first question I'll ask it, because it's the same question I ask everyone that comes on the show what does it mean to you, Paul, to be a leader?

Speaker 2: 2:55

What does it mean to me to be a leader? Sorry, I've been working in, I'll just say this. I've been working in the thinking environment recently and, um, and it just you know there's lots to it, but, like, one of the big things that it gives actually is gives you the confidence and comfort to be able to create some space for yourself to really genuinely think. I think in this modern society, um, and modern workplaces, I think there's a, there's an expectation where we feel like we've got to respond and that creates urgency and sometimes that leads us to do and say things that we don't mean to um, so, yes, so hence the, the, the pause there. So I hope that doesn't spoil the podcast enough. I completely agree I have six seconds going.

Speaker 2: 3:38

What the?

Speaker 2: 3:38

hell was just fell asleep, um, um, so what does a leader, uh, what does the leadership mean for me?

Speaker 2: 3:47

And it's, it's. It's really strange because I think we often look at leaders and we see people who, um, like the lion king, they're standing on the rock and surveying the, the savannah with all of their, that sort of surfs, all of the other animals who sort of are somehow subservient to them, um, but I always say that, um, leadership starts with you and leadership isn't isn't a work thing. It's like how are you leading yourself in life? Um, and that might be actually, um, being able to know what's going on. So, actually being able to see yourself in a really true way, first and foremost, because if I don't think you do, then actually the rest of it's likely to be lost a little bit because you haven't got like some good, concrete knowledge of yourself. Um, um, and by all means, do your own self-reflection, I think, with with that, but actually get feedback from others really important. I'm very fortunate in that my wife and me two daughters are really good at giving me feedback, just to watch.

Speaker 1: 4:56

Whatever you don't want to yeah.

Speaker 2: 4:58

Well, absolutely, you know, even if it's sort of unwanted and it comes unbidden, but it's really powerful having that gift. I'll just tell a little story. So I remember once we were walking down the course, we were out for a walk and they'd said something. They're telling a story. And they said you've got something funny to say, dad, haven't you? And I said, well, how do you know? And they said, like you have this like panting dog face. It's sort of like I've got something funny to say.

Speaker 2: 5:26

And I didn't realize I had this. So I was really then conscious afterwards to like, ok, every time I thought I was about to say something funny or clever or witty, very conscious of not having a panting dog face, so sorry a long bit, but like to demonstrate that having self-awareness is really good and that reflection and getting that from others and being open to feedback from others, I think is a core tenet of leadership for me. And then it's being able to use that information to make like more decisions, like better decisions, more thought through, conscious decisions. So we all tend to react like, don't we? We based on how we normally react and that's different for each of us. So I'll think about like one of my brothers, like who just would hate to get up on stage and whatever and give a speech, um, or I quite like it sometimes, depending on the topic, but I'm not put off by the actual sort of thought of it. So, but the reaction that he might have is different, how, how I would.

Speaker 2: 6:26

So to be able to think through what you want to do and do things deliberately, I think is um, in response to a situation I think is really critical. And I think that final part is like having a clarity around, like a vision, understanding, like being deliberate around. This is how I want to live my life and trying to align those, like you know, tactical plans or or you know, day-to-day decisions. So having that in alignment with, I guess, the person who you see yourself being, or, if you fast forward to the end of your life and you're looking back on it, you go, you know what I actually lived quite an aligned life to the person that I wanted to be, not always because we're human beings and we're fallible and yeah, so just I think it just it's actually taking the core of our humanity and say how do I bring that to bear? And this is not just a work thing, it's actually a whole life thing.

Speaker 2: 7:18

So a long answer not maybe too long, but I guess that's just my personal philosophy around. It starts with leading yourself more effectively, and part of that then is that okay. Well, what difference do you make? Not just for yourself? So you made a million quid and everybody else is losers. Well, that's not really great. What legacy have you left? How have you left the world in a better place? Because you can't take your money with you and you have fancy houses and your cars, cars and whatever, but the other things you can leave as a as a as a legacy that makes society better for those in your family or those who you've worked with and you know I've failed miserably at times to do that. Hopefully there's been other times where I've managed to achieve some of the things that I wanted to be. So, yeah, leading yourself interesting and what?

Speaker 1: 8:02

the reason why I find your work interesting is because I think if you look at standard management type um presentations or techniques, it's all about how you manage. It's all about how you manage people and it's all about them. Where your work is involves that involves understanding people, but actually it starts from you said that humanity starts understanding yourself first, and if you can influence how you feel and your actions, your thoughts, you can influence others. I think I saw a quote in yours emotions drive people, people drive performance which obviously links in with that, and I find it fascinating. I think it's a really great way of thinking about things, because it actually tells me that you're actually, you can influence a lot more than you think, because it's probably well, probably well, this question for you actually is it easier to influence yourself and your own thoughts or is it easier to influence other people?

Speaker 2: 8:54

um, I don't think either are easy. Really, I don't think it's one more than the other. I think it's probably harder to um order to deliberately try to influence others if you literally are struggling yourself. So you know, when I say these things I always feel a little bit guilty because it sounds like I know the answers here and I you know don't get it wrong still on a regular basis. But, yes, I think it's got to begin with you, because I think it's really hard and you've had managers in life and I'm sure I've done this where manager will go well, you should do.

Speaker 2: 9:35

And like I've had thoughts in my head about other managers I'm sure people have had that where who have worked for me and go. You know, uh, you know phrase from the bible heal thyself. You know, you know you see a splinter in your brother's eye when indeed you've got a plant in your own um, so, um, I think, if I think like true confidence and true strength comes from like a really good, nuanced understanding of you, so that if maybe you get some feedback from people or criticism, you can sort of almost allow yourself that pause to go. Actually, you know there's probably some truth in that. So there's, you know, you can see yourself and that that sort of confidence in your you know okay, I laugh at myself when I've got be panting dog face or somebody at work sort of suggests that you, your mind is closed or you've sort of shied away from conflict or whatever, to acknowledge the truth of that is quite powerful for you, because you don't then have to defend yourself, you don't feel that sense of fragility that I'm going to break in the face of maybe what might be some truth. I think is really important. Um, I think is really um, important. So I think the two of them go hand in hand.

Speaker 2: 10:50

But I always struggle to think that if you aren't open for that feedback and if you, um, uh, you know, find it difficult to maybe sort of influence yourself a little bit, you're probably going to find it harder because you're the expert at you. So theoretically, you know so you should be the person who knows more about you than anybody. And if you can't, then manage you and sadly the word manage if you then can't lead yourself effectively, how the heck are you doing that with other people? Your knowledge around you and your self-regulation, how are you supposed to you know, regulate others and know data about others accurately? I'm sure there may be people who might be able to do that, but I always struggle with that and that's maybe it's my inner block around it. So that's, I don't know if that's answered your question no, it hasn't.

Speaker 1: 11:33

and why? The reason I like talking to you is because things I get ideas and off the back of it and real life examples. And it's interesting how we talk about feedback because, um and I'm sure there'll be other people in the situation who perhaps leave businesses or a very senior person in the business I get feedback all the time. At home I get feedback. I've had feedback this morning that I've not done the blinds, I've not cut the strawberries right for my five-year-old. You know all this type of stuff I get on a daily basis. But I don't get much feedback here about me because I'm the boss and sometimes people might be too apprehensive to tell the boss but there is. I miss that accountability sometimes than having a manager, because obviously it's quite a lonely place being a manager but at the same time, like you say, feedback is essential. How do you get that in a workplace if you are in such a senior position where feedback isn't part of your routine because you manage people no mind as you would, you say?

Speaker 2: 12:36

yeah, um, actually, um, invite it is the is the answer now, I think, when I say that you've got to be aware of what's gone on before. So how safe do people feel to actually be confident enough that you're genuinely interested if you've always bitten people's heads off before? So you know, that's not to say you haven't got to start and you've got to maybe be able to go. Hey, I've gone through a bit of a journey with this and I'm learning and whatever. So you know, if you haven't got the trust, then I'd still ask you to try and do it and then see what happens from here. So there might be somewhere to start it. I've actually been working with an organization that I've worked with probably for the longest um, uh, financial services, like a county business in newcastle and did a session with them just a couple of weeks ago on radical candor.

Speaker 2: 13:23

And if you've come across this, it's, it's, it's it's the book Kim Scott, and basically you know I'll boil it down in a nutshell and it's about it's two aspects to it. Radical candor is about care personally, so that's the first element. And then challenge directly. So you're not helping people if you don't tell them, maybe, what's going on. So, but like if you don't tell them maybe, what's going on. So if you come out to the loo and you've got your flies down, then it's uncomfortable, but actually tell people. They need to know. But the starting point is you're doing it from a place of not too upset and embarrassing. You're doing it because you care. You don't want them to feel daft or other people think that about you, so that sort of thing.

Speaker 2: 14:05

But one of the things that Kim Scott talks about is that radical candor. The starting point so before you even go out your way to give people either caring or developmental feedback, is you've got to invite it yourself. So you as a leader have to go tell. I want you to tell me. You to be radically candid with me, so don't be mean. So again, care put. You're doing it because you're helping me be a better leader. And then you give me some feedback, even if it's tough.

Speaker 2: 14:26

So invite that in and say how do you make that? How can I make that part of my routine where I get regular feedback about how I lead? And that might be start in safe space. It might be with your family. They're the ones who you trust and love the most. It might then be with like somebody who's a peer of yours, who's like somebody who you know maybe doesn't have a horse in the race, you know is doing it from an independent point of view and you trust their judgment. You trust your boss. Ask your boss and then it may be, you know, when you're at that point where you're starting to get feedback, you know you may want to spread that out to people who about you. The chances are you've got a better opportunity to use that knowledge to be able to do that.

Speaker 2: 15:15

Now that doesn't mean you've got to accept every bit of feedback, because I did a 360 feedback um once and obviously it was anonymized, apart from one person who was my boss, because it it levels it so you can see whether you get different results from your boss, your peers, people underneath. So really interesting um, that um and like there was some feedback in there that I went oh my goodness, yeah, I know, I knew that, but this was like a stark realization of that is the truth of me in terms of procrastination and whatever, and that came out because I put stuff off and then I had to examine why I procrastinate. So it leads you to some good places. It hurts still, but it still leads you to some good places. There was other stuff because it was anonymized in some of the comments, like I just couldn't see it.

Speaker 2: 16:00

And I asked a couple of other people. I said do you see that in me? A couple of other people who I thought would tell me the truth, they went no. So I did a bit of assessment on it and I thought, okay, I'm going to take the 80 percent here and this 20. I still just don't see that. So it's not to say I've never done that, but I don't think that's a reflection of me, so you know. So still, there's an element of like judgment with it, but I think you've got to be open to it, even if it hurts. Yeah. So I think that you know. I would suggest people to have a think about what would um, being open to feedback look like for you yeah interesting.

Speaker 1: 16:38

So I mean a lot of people people to be listening to these sort of podcasts are on the journey of personal progression and are doing, you know, listening to try and bet themselves, um, but I I really hope this conversation sort of challenges people to really sort of think about their emotions and how they feel, um, and I don't think that comes naturally to people and I'm going to say what's up here, but I don't think comes naturally to to us blokes, for it's uh, typically, um, when did obviously you've gone from a journey of working in human resources to, you know, to doing this in terms of working with businesses now and working with people in businesses and the emotions and getting to be more efficient? You got emotions right. People, people drive performance part. When did you sort of realize that this was your calling?

Speaker 2: 17:24

I'm gonna say now you know what I was 46 right and and like. So when you were talking there, I had a whole series of emotions. So there was a bit of excitement, there was a bit of shame and there's a bit of anger and frustration. So I just felt all of those things right there. But I was 46. So the frustration is that and I'm going to say it, I'm putting it on why hasn't, why didn't anybody tell me?

Speaker 2: 17:57

So I went on a course when I was 46 right and and I'm not saying I wasn't aware of emotions, all that type of stuff but I think I did avoid particularly and quite loud or like, emotions that were associated with aggression. So, um, when I was under threat, I would typically withdraw, I would go cool, I'd put on, like you know, in situations where it was fun and friendly and social, lots of emotions, letting those out, you know, engaging. But when I felt like, particularly in HR, you're under threat, risk of tribunal, all that type of stuff, I would have like the cold face. You know, I'm not saying I wasn't at some things caring, but there was a lot of times I went into like neutral professional mode. So this course I went on. I went away for a week, um long thing, with a company called six seconds.

Speaker 2: 18:45

I, based in the us largest global um emotional intelligence network, um, and I remember sent me wife oh my god, I hope it's not sitting around the campfire telling sad stories and weeping type of stuff because I've gone there, you know, to do some assessment tools about emotional intelligence. My idea was like I need some tools to do this to people at work because they need some of this. Oh my god, like, I come away and I remember coming back from the course and talking to my wife and and in a lot of it was about like tools and about the methodologies and about systems. But in order for you to access those, you really needed to like, look inwardly. So this was that's. It starts with you and go, oh my god, this is why I avoid conflict, this is why, like, in these situations, I do this and that leads me to dwell on it and like gives me, you know, a physical ulcer, then a metaphorical ulcer, a life full of anxiety, and I still have some of that.

Speaker 2: 19:37

It's not saying I've eradicated it, but learning how emotions were like, not only shaping me and how I felt and my well-being and how I did my job but actually like, also like how I projected at certain times. So hopefully, you know so there was a lot of the times when I was good to work with and there were other times when I don't think I was bad but I was probably hard to reach, you know. So I was doing a disciplinary with somebody. I've got to be professional here, so maybe try to follow them. You know the mechanisms in it. You know, I thought the right way to do it was in a calm and neutral way.

Speaker 2: 20:15

But I was still dealing with a person and even if they'd done something wrong and I'll use that term just for a shorthand way, I don't like it but just to give that impression like they still were probably feeling lots of emotions, but also I was scared to feel their emotions with them because I probably would be overwhelmed and I wouldn't be able to cope. So there was times if, even if I was, you know, there was some empathy deep inside, I wasn't being able to channel that effectively in that situation which led to, yes, they might have got a disciplinary warning at the end of it. Nice, you know. Tick at the end that it was like you know, that was done in a fair and a neutral way, but it left the person probably feeling not really listened to, and even if they were, but in a dispassionate way, they didn't feel listened to even if they were. Do you know what I mean? So feelings aren't important, that's. The feelings are the lens in which we look through our lives. But'll start with me, which is you know, there were times then I um, if I was feeling compassionate towards that person, I didn't show it so when I said about shame and stuff. So there was that.

Speaker 2: 21:28

So, coming away from that course and talking to my wife and my reflection on, you know, relationships with family and work as well, I think she thought, oh, my God, he's been brainwashed, he's been. Look at this. And not that it changed, but it just like. I think it was just. I think I was overwhelmed, it was just. It was like somebody had opened a different door and the way in which I looked at myself and the way I looked at the work that I did was was changed in that moment and you know, I can feel like the, the power and emotion of that moment. I was trying to put myself there and thinking, oh, my goodness, this is something that I've got to do now, you know. So it was like it was like, okay, I still did it and was trying to work on myself, but then trying to do stuff with people at work and using some of the tools and, you know, really kind of like work with people, coach people, teams, that type of stuff, not on the bits that they were already amazing at.

Speaker 2: 22:26

So this was a predominantly tech business, but also you've got like marketeers, accountants, customer service, so you're working with a range of people because they're humans, because I couldn't teach them anything about the technical skill and that's not teaching is not the right word but I could help and support them as I had, and try to actually maybe give them a, an epiphany, or even like moving forward in some of the areas that I struggled with as a jolly bloke, 46 years old, but you know northeast of England, traditional, you know way of thinking. But it's crazy, it doesn't make biological sense. We've got our, you know thinking brain, which is what? 20,000 years old in its development as opposed to, you know, 20 billionaire, whatever the planets be in place, and humans have grown. That's being there, and yet we teach kids in schools and we grow as adults in organizations all on our iq or thinking brain or technical skill. But that's not the bit. That's the new bit. That's like the chat you know, almost like that it did its childlike infancy, or thinking brain or feeling brain drives us every single day. I'm going. Why didn't I consciously know this in that way and put some people might say you're stupid because you didn't. But yeah, so you can see, I'm getting a bit animated about it.

Speaker 2: 23:42

That was the starting point and that was 2017, and that led me to a place where I'm quite a naturally cautious person, like I'm quite considered small steps. I'm quite risk averse and, okay, it took a bit of time, so I made sort of little inroads and steps that probably eventually where you know, wasn't I guess it was ultimately my decision but it probably led to a certain stance that led it where I was either forced myself or maybe forced the organization or other people to put me in a position where I went I've either got to go back to my old job, um, or take a risk, and this was like 2020 the end of the pandemic, sort of stuff, where people are still in lockdowns to actually set up my own business. Then I never thought I was going to do this. Um, I just didn't see that being on my career plan. So I'm sort of giving up all the security of an hr career that probably could see me through retirement and probably a nice pension and all the nice things that go with this.

Speaker 2: 24:38

And I was doing this madly scary thing of going out on my own and seeing if I could afford it and like telling my wife I want to just quit my job and do this and it just yeah. So it led me. It led me to a scary place, but a managed scary place, I think. So lots there, mark, and I'm sure you've got some questions, so that that answers what was a simple question and I've turned it in with 10 minutes and it's good context.

Speaker 1: 25:03

And I think what I'm curious about is what and I guess it wasn't and obviously went on that course and obviously that changed the way you thought, but I imagine you didn't change overnight, you know that was just. It put you on a course to change what? Um, what do you think now is the main difference between you know, you at 45 and and and you now? And what I mean by that is, I guess, when things happen and if I think about the first question I asked you, you paused and thought about it, you didn't just dive in. Is it a case of you reflect and you you go inwards first, or is it a set of skills you've? You've learned without science who they're missing that?

Speaker 2: 25:44

it's a combination of both. Um. So when I say that, because our thinking brain and our feeling brain work in tandem, so this isn't going, don't think anything through, just let your emotions rule you. It's not that. It's about bringing your emotions to the fore and using them as information and data to help make decisions. Along with some of the tools and the tips and the techniques, the process bits.

Speaker 2: 26:15

Here's a model, you know, I think feel act around behavior. Or there's a one around exercising optimism, which is about using optimism bridges and some research there and some mechanisms for that, but aligned with, like, what's your gut instinct telling you? Because I think that emotional part of the brain is actually linked to, you know, your digestive tract of your gut. That's actually a good feeling. So you've got some of that good thinking that goes with a feeling. But if there's, like, if I just had to identify one thing that's a very personal thing, um, I talked about like anger and stuff and, you know, struggling with some of those in conflict, I would withdraw and that was a pattern that I would know. I am now better able to um, have conflict. So if you think emotion intelligent oh, it's about being nice how are you doing. It's not that for me, it's actually addressing things more directly and I'm not saying I'm perfect at that, but you know, even at home or even like in work context, like you know, if I'm in a session and somebody's like maybe I'll challenge, I would have really struggled to challenge like difficult behavior that I felt was sorry behavior from others. Maybe that was difficult for me.

Speaker 2: 27:29

Um, when I now feel anger, I'm able to go. What is anger telling me about? The situation I feel like? This is, you know, I know that the biological purpose of anger is my way is blocked and anger is there to help you overcome that, because you need the energy to attack at it. Now, if I keep that anger inside, that's energy fizzing around inside and it's harming me. It's like that metaphorical ulcer because I'm not doing anything with the energy of anger, so I'm pushing it away. But anger is useful because you need it to achieve your goals, to overcome your barriers. So for me to be able to go that's really interesting.

Speaker 2: 28:06

I'm feeling anger. What am I feeling anger about? Um, what is it giving me? Well, it's giving me knowledge, some things in my way, but it's also giving me actually a physiological energy. So I need some of that because I need to get on with this project. I need to have that conversation with that person. I need to, but not in a way that's going to have me screaming and yelling at them but neither, which isn't good and probably not going to be productive. I can give it a try. Even then. That may be the first time they knew that this mattered to me. So there's still a pro, a good outcome for this, even if there's maybe lots of other bad ones. So I don't want that, but I want them to know it matters to me, but without losing me shit. Yeah, that one thing I think is the biggest thing for me to be able to speak my truth in a way that is supportive of me but, hopefully, is supportive of others too.

Speaker 1: 28:58

But again, saying that I still don't always get that right and I guess the challenge we have is we're inbuilt in us is that. Is that fight or flight? And I guess that they are opposing responses. Where you know you run away from the problem or you're realistic, you probably hit it too hard and I guess that's why you get two different sets of people to do two different sets of things yeah it's trying to get that, that middle of the rose, I imagine, where, like you say, you you're confident in confrontation but you don't.

Speaker 1: 29:27

Actually there isn't a tiger in the room. So you know, you just have to be confident. You can have that conversation without the fear of of, because I guess, if I think of my own point of view, sometimes I have, um, I haven't avoided confrontation because I've not wanted to upset them, and that you know that and I imagine there's probably similar people. You get people who are okay with that um, and you get people, like me, I guess, who have probably avoided that for the wrong reasons, because what you've not want to upset someone, naturally sometimes you, they need that hard truth in the right way yeah.

Speaker 2: 30:03

So it's about making a deliberate choice, because there may be times where avoidance is the good thing and you know. The obvious one is like you know you're in a bar and somebody's acting like an idiot. You know, and it might well be actually it's him and his mates and it's just me. Yeah, whatever you know, it makes sense to just you know it might be okay. You're thinking it through and you're making a conscious decision to do it. Or even in a meeting around a table, there might be times where this is really hectic. There's a lot of tension.

Speaker 2: 30:31

I'm aware of this tension up, there's a lot of tension. I'm aware of this tension. This situation needs addressed. But I'm making a. I'm aware of my feelings or my natural pattern to avoid. Even then, I'm going to think about this and go. Avoidance is the right decision to make here, but it's a conscious choice rather than an autopilot. So, having an awareness of my, my natural response is this uh, I'm going to take a step back and reflect. You know what, even after having thought about it, it's still the right choice here. But I know I'm going to address this this way because I have a number of choices and I'm picking this one avoid, followed by this action that's going to address this, you know, with a one individual or two individuals, or at the next meeting, when maybe things are a bit calmer. So it's just about making conscious choices. I think is a core element of that.

Speaker 1: 31:23

It links into this. But can we go through a scenario? Right, and you know this is the bulk of the people. This are manufacturers. Let's use a manufacturing scenario as an example. It's a morning, 10 am, team meeting and, um, there's always that one person who gets quite conversational and is shouting at others, and that's that's become the norm and become the the way that the culture is. But actually you are that person. Now, once you're in a level where you can challenge that, what would you advise for that Is it? You do it there, you take it. Do you know what I mean? Because I think there's lots of those situations and we get feedback that sometimes those those morning meetings are are just too confrontational. Is that something to imagine? As part of your gig, you come up against that type of stuff, Because I know you work within that arena.

Speaker 2: 32:15

Yeah, the first question, the first thing that came to mind is because I'm imagining with the manager, I'm doing a coaching session and I would be going. What are you feeling?

Speaker 1: 32:27

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 32:28

So what are those feelings telling you about the situation? Okay, so what options do you have have? What do you truly want as an outcome? And then get them to start to think about that, because I think this whole like advice thing is overrated. Yeah, because you know my advice is just how I would do it. I mean completely incompatible, you know to to. You know, if I was Donald Trump and it might well be well, you know, this is how I would do it that might be wholly incompatible with your values and what's important to you and how you want to be seen and remembered and all that type of stuff. So that always sounds like a bit of an ovation, but genuinely, I think that when I work with people in teams, the wisdom lives within them.

Speaker 2: 33:17

I'll give people some information. Maybe here's a model, here's whatever. This is what potentially it means for me. I'll ask you a question how does that land? What makes sense to you? Where would you want it to be?

Speaker 2: 33:30

So, like you know, on a scale of one to ten, if it's like going up the problem as opposed to softening the problem, I might be on a seven and I might need to move it to a six. You might go no, no, I'm going to move that up to a three or you know, whatever. So, because that fits you, that that says something about no, no, um, I want to address this and I want to address it now. That's important to me, okay. So how you wanting to address it now, that's important to me, okay.

Speaker 2: 33:54

So how you wanting to address that and you thinking that's important, how does that fit with what you want to do differently then? So we start to explore that it's almost like individual and unique, and whilst we might admire behaviours and traits of like leaders and I think that's always good but that leader, even the ones that we might admire greatly, will be flawed. Just to follow slavishly what they say is the right thing to do, I always think, is a dangerous road to go down. You refine based on what's important to you, but if you don't know what's important to you, how are you making a right?

Speaker 1: 34:32

decision, then Apologies for interrupting this podcast for a very quick 30-second pitch of my business. Theo James are a specialist manufacturing and engineering recruitment search firm based in Siam in the Northeast. If you're looking for any staff or a new opportunity yourself, from a semi-skilled level right the way up to C-suite executive, then please get in touch. We have a specialist consultant in each discipline ready to help. I'm extremely proud of what we've built over the years. I'd love to extend that service out to you.

Speaker 2: 35:03

Thank you, enjoy the podcast you don't know what your values are, you don't know, um, how you want to show up in the world. You don't know those things. How the hell are you knowing that you're going in the right direction or not? So, you know, listen to yourself. But you know, in that 10 o'clock meeting, if I was working with the manager there, and you know it's a post-session, post-event reflection, it's about sort of reviewing that with them and going, well, what might you want to try next time? What could be different? And they might well say I'm going to stop the meeting and I'm going to go. You know, jimmy suzy, can I just have a quick word? Or you know, look, let's have a chat about this or address it. You could go hey, yeah, uh, yeah, you're obviously feeling, you know, some intense emotions there. Can you tell me a little about what you're feeling? Well, that's really. And then they start. And then can I, can I ask why you're feeling that? So you're not. You know you're challenging them, but you're not like calling them out or hauling them.

Speaker 2: 36:08

You know the office, you know there is it, but there's literally a, probably a. You know hundreds of options. You could try and refine that, and that doesn't mean you're going to get it right. Emotion, intelligence is that space to think and to pause and go. What options do I have? This one will give me probably a better chance of getting a better outcome, not necessarily a guarantee, because you've got to. You know you really learn through trying and doing. You're not going to learn necessarily from having a chat with me. You might learn some new stuff, but the real learning comes from when you put that in practice and see how your knowledge or your trying something new is impacting the world. You first. How do you feel about this? Feel more confident, because I don't need to have any of the answers, I just need to have maybe more of the question the questions.

Speaker 1: 36:57

yeah, yeah, so are you seeing, because, are you seeing sort of the opinions change around? I guess emotional intelligence because again, manufacturing it can can sometimes be a bit archaic, shall we say I've seen a huge difference, I would say, um, in just management, the evolution of management over most industries, I would say, in the last 10, 15 years. Most people I interview now have a very different way of managing people than they were managed and I think people are definitely starting to understand people and trying to understand people more. Have you seen that transition, would you say, and do you still have that um, difficult job when you first go into company I've tried is it feel like it's a win, hearts and minds, or not as much anymore?

Speaker 2: 37:43

um, yes, I think there is a shift, but if I can express a frustration is it's just not happening.

Speaker 2: 37:48

Damn quick enough yeah I'm just, it just feels like an irrational thing to ignore our biology and I just think, um, and again, just put my hr hat on going back, people would rather, um, you know all the cost of having to replace somebody who's left because you know they haven't been managed effectively in their emotions. Whatever we've got managers still, you know, doing daft things that have caused this. Or you know even like somebody's taking you to tribunal and then it's cost you. So you're paying lawyers and you're paying like a payout fee and all of the emotional labour that goes from managers having to go through this and the people themselves. It's like literally tens of hundreds of thousands of pounds and you go oh well, but we want to try and do some of this stuff that might help you prevent getting there. But it almost feels like you're selling them something that doesn't exist. You know, like this penny nostrum that's gonna help you. So it's just for those people who maybe have a more you know, you, that that balances more on that thinking brain. It's at times it doesn't make sense to them.

Speaker 2: 38:59

Now I'm so, I guess, with emotional intelligence. It feels like there's a, there's a going out there and going. This is what it is, peace and and then it leads to. So I think there is a change and I think it's going. It's not just growing fast, it's. We need to move that because technology's growing at a pace fast. You know, all of this stuff is like oh, it's going a million miles an hour but our humanity is not keeping pace with the technology and we're going to be left behind with these machines that are going to be smarter than us intellectually but we're not developing our emotional brain that's keeping up with that um. So I just want you to uh think about that um element of um, yeah, it, it is changing, but it's's not changing quickly enough for me.

Speaker 2: 39:48

But when I go into the company, so what does that mean? When I'm going into businesses, I guess the people that I'm working with, either one-to-one or with teams that's always the case Somebody hires me for a company and the people who are coming along necessarily haven't asked for this or bought into this. But I would say the majority of times the setup is good enough where those people already believe there's something to be said for it, even if they don't know what it is. They have an open-mindedness or an interest, minimally, or even like an active yes, I think that will make a difference if we do some of this. So, um, when I actually get to do the work bit, I think there's already a door. That's already a job, rather than because I'm not saying I don't want to push it a door, but I guess there's hundreds thousands of companies, you know, in the region, never mind the country and never mind the world.

Speaker 2: 40:37

Um, I haven't got time, in a sense, for for trying to bang on doors that are permanently locked to this. So if anybody's watching and that's you and you think there's nothing in this emotion stuff, in a sense, for trying to bang on doors that are permanently locked to this, so if anybody's watching and that's you and you think there's nothing in this emotion stuff and we're not human beings, then don't contact me. I don't want to hear from you. You'd be wasting my time and yours. But if you're out there and you're thinking, oh, my goodness, this is the bit that could actually help me me and my team and my business transform, not through having better processes, but helping people adapt to the processes better because of how they feel about it, then you're somebody that I'd love to hear from.

Speaker 2: 41:17

And even if you don't know, you're a bit scared or you're unsure or you think actually, well, there might be something in this, but overall I think it's horseshit. I'm even okay with that. I don't mind that, because there's still a bit of oh, it seems a bit of a nonsense, but I'd like to know more. That's fine. The doors are a little bit. Then come and talk to me. That's the bit where I love to explore and understand and work with people. And if it's still not right, that's fine. You've got've got priorities. Your new Excel training or your development to be next level accounts all good, all important. But the bit that might help you overcome the obstacles when you get that difficult exam and when you feel down and you've got that resilience, will be your emotional intelligence or your optimism ability, or your optimism ability or your intrinsic motivation. It will be that bit that will help you overcome those things. It won't be your technical skill, I can guarantee it.

Speaker 1: 42:12

Yeah, 100%. I think there'll be a lot of people driving in right, driving to work, listening to this and they're maybe doing some sort of self-reflection, because I just think we go through our day lives without really thinking about things and just in it, because people are a lot busier than they used to be. I think you know people work probably far too much now For you. I don't want to use the word advice, but what?

Speaker 2: 42:37

It's learnt well done.

Speaker 1: 42:41

Is it important? What can people do? Is it important to just literally take some time and and think about situations that they've been in almost self-reflect? Or is it a journaling piece, or are there any sort of activity, anything they can do to sort of get start themselves on this journey?

Speaker 2: 42:58

yeah, um, uh, so use technology, um. So it's not like I'm averse to technology. I think it's really important, I think it can help. So there's a number of different ways, and this is why I love it where people take the information and then go okay, this is how I can do this, because if I said journaling, some people go oh my God, I hate the journal it's just not for me.

Speaker 2: 43:19

I'll just not do it. So what the hell's the point? I'm going to say I'm going to do this because it sounds like the right thing to do. It's like I'm going to go on the treadmill in the gym, but I hate the treadmill. Guarantee you're not going to keep on doing the treadmill in six months time, you just know. So do something that you think is doable for you. So, but yes, some people like the journal, some people like to um see a reticule when I'm feeling I've got clenched fists. I'm going to notice the clenched fist and I'm going to go okay, I'm going to stop myself and I'm going to pause in the moment to go what am I feeling? What might I do differently?

Speaker 2: 43:48

Um, I used um, an app called. It's called how we feel. I'm not part of it, I'm not connected to it, so I don't get any money in terms of conditions. Um, it was developed by a guy called mark bracket, who's a, a researcher in the us. Um, and it's really great because you go in and it says it's just the scale you've got I don't know about 20 emotions or something in each quadrant, and each quadrant is based on how intense they are and whether they're pleasant or unpleasant. And so you've obviously got high intensity, high unpleasantness, high intensity, pleasantness or whatever, and there's a number of. So you do that and, like throughout the day or at the end of the day, you can just go in and go plink, plink, plonk. These were the emotions I felt today.

Speaker 2: 44:28

And then normally, like afterwards, it'll give you a little video. Oh, this is a challenge. Here's a little 30 second video on something gives you a little bit of help about what you might want to do, what's going on. But then it gives you like a nice, like reflective piece and it'll say oh, do you realize you've had like know, a shed load of anger this week and you know, not much joy. Oh, really interesting.

Speaker 2: 44:47

So where did I find me joy? You know what that was? When I was working on this project with this person. Why? Why is that joyful and why is the anger coming from here? So you're starting to use the data of your emotions to help you reflect. Now, great, if you can do that in the moment. Sometimes you can't because you're so overwhelmed, but on reflection you go right. Okay, now that I have that data. So in those situations when I'm angry, what is in my way. Well, it's this or it's this person. I now need to address that. I need to address that in a way that is going to be different, because the way I've been doing it is going to create the same outcomes. I know I'm going to try this to see if it gives me a different outcome. So, just for that, does that give you what you're looking for? Yeah, it does.

Speaker 1: 45:33

One example I think it's that you know this stuff will have opened people's mind and it's kind of like, okay, where do I start? And I think that's great. I think start, and I think that's great, I think you're starting, starting with yourself. You know, start with yourself and how you feel, and that self self-reflection piece is huge. I've got one final question on emotional intelligence, which is a selfish one, but I can't ask you this because it's something that I battle with. Which is? I ask it because I want to ask it why do I, um, why do I act differently as a parent than I do a manager? Because they are very different the way I deal with situations at home with my young kids versus situations in here, where I bite my tongue a lot more, um, and they're not family, um, it is, it's very, very different. Is that a common theme that you have? What do you say?

Speaker 2: 46:22

um, is it a common theme? Not always, but I think I've have heard and there's a lot of people say that they're different from so um. I don't want to make this into a coaching session for you more, but actually, if it's for you, I would invite you to think about so um, why do you think you respond differently in a home environment to a work environment?

Speaker 1: 46:50

Yeah, and I think it's because of the way I was brought up in quite a strict environment and if I did something wrong I was told quite sternly. Versus the way I was managed. I've never really had that sort of management. So I've always thought is it just you go to what you know? Because I definitely have a not a short fuse. It sounds wrong, but I definitely have less patience at home than I do at work and I'd almost prefer to be able to not bite my tongue in situations at work and pick people up and be more, hold them more accountable and actually just have a little bit more patience at home. So I don't know, it's because of the environments I've been in that that has enabled that, that has meant that's the way I I deal with things, but it's.

Speaker 2: 47:37

It's probably a a good self-reflection piece after that and you talk like that and if we were working that you would start the case, or um know, how does that feel to have those. You know two different conflicts. There's like a work you and a home you. Is that helpful to feel like? Where am I today and how is this emotion landing?

Speaker 2: 47:57

Yeah you know, I mean, it's anything you know well, how does that feel? It feels like I'm potentially being torn from, you know, from one thing to the other. So what is like, you know, the true, authentic me? What does that look like? What would it? What's the vision of that? You know, you know how important is it for you to have one consistent way of approaching. How would it make you feel if you did?

Speaker 2: 48:23

Okay, interesting, and then you start to go okay, there might be times where if I'm this person, then then that's, that's closer to the true me. How can I bring that more to me home and what would that mean in terms of like, like, reining some of that in a little bit? And how would that help at work if you were giving out some more of that, you know, to authentic self? What difference could it make to you and to others? So you see, there's lots of questions there that would help you really explore. Oh, my goodness.

Speaker 2: 48:53

And then, all of a sudden, you've done the work, and we've done it over six months, and you're actually you're waking up in the morning and knowing with a bit more clarity about you what's important to you. That helps you make decisions more easily because you're not having to weigh up the pros and cons as much, because actually you have a clearer sense of what's important and you know what. And the people around you are starting to go. This is what Mark's about, because not only are you articulating it, but you're behaving it. Yeah, so you know what I'm saying and then all of a sudden it just feels like a more useful thing for you and for others. So that's the benefit from maybe a business point of view and but a balanced point of view. You know that sense of like home and work. Yeah, I'm trying to bring the authentic self to all of those environments.

Speaker 1: 49:42

Yeah, yeah, lovely. No, thank you, I couldn't ask that. I've got some quick fire questions to end with um, I'll try and give some quick fire answers, which I know is a tricky one for me. Yeah, you put, it's probably a while since you've had one, but who was the best manager you ever had, and why?

Speaker 2: 49:57

yeah, um, it's jim cohen. Um, uh, he still speaks to me now. We still meet up, we still have lunch. He's still my. You know I call me mentor, but up, we still have lunch, he's still my. You know I call him my mentor but he, you know, he calls me friend, but he is my friend as well and it's because he cared, he kept on I was going to say my manager even after he left the organisation and he went off to do his own thing.

Speaker 2: 50:19

And you know, he's in his seventies now and we still meet up and he still pays for lunch, right, which I was like it's my turn, jim. And like I always felt like really bad because I I never felt I could give him anything back, because I always felt like the wisdom was all his, um, apart from my jokes, which he jokingly, you know, uh, you know, says he hates but he loves them inside, um, but like I came to a realisation at some point that the goodness and the care and the compassion and the humanity that he always, you know, took that interest in me. I feel like I've got to then pass that down to others. That's my gift to him.

Speaker 1: 51:02

Yeah, I love that. That's really important, actually, isn't it? And I think you, you know that is the privilege of being a manager, the fact that we have a real privileged position or a position of responsibility to pass that knowledge on. I think that's why good managers want to manage and lead biggest influence from the business.

Speaker 2: 51:21

Entertainment, sporting world can't say Gaza oh, you know what, and only because I mean there's lots of people whose like actions and traits I admire, rather than the whole individual, because I don't really know. So I don't have any sort of rock star gods that are, you know, there's a sort of a hero worship in that way. But, um, so lots of people, lots of things, but actually I was. I was watching something this morning. I don't know if you know mr rogers.

Speaker 2: 51:50

Um, he did a tv show in america from the 60s up to 2001, I think, um, and the film a beautiful day in the neighborhood is based on his sort of life and he's just such an inspiring man and and basically he had a children's TV show but that was watched by adults but really it was informative and it helped children overcome some difficulties.

Speaker 2: 52:11

So he went into some pretty dark places but he did it in such a way that gave those children comfort and hope. So if anybody wants to look him up, he's called Mr Rogers and his view and his vision of life are one of like compassion and understanding, but also acceptance that you know, as humans we're beautifully flawed. We're all going through this. We're connected by our shared humanity and our ability to overcome this we have. You know our challenges and our difficulties. We have this within us, but we can only do that where we work with each other and love each other and again, are you looking after yourself and your neighbour. I think it's just a beautiful sentiment. So, mr Rogers, look him up and I think a lot of what he did still inspires me today.

Speaker 1: 53:01

Three things, or words, first thing, that spring to mind, that make up a good leader, would you say.

Speaker 2: 53:14

Um, three things or words. First thing that's been to mind that make up a good leader, would you say. I would say an excellent leader, because who just wants to be good?

Speaker 2: 53:20

Nice yeah yeah, oh, yeah, yeah, um, I think care, compassion just for me. I think it's got to matter, I think your people have got to matter to you. Yeah, yeah. So if you're just in it just to do all this stuff, whatever, um, the second quality, um I say because it's a one that I probably lack, which is drive, okay, yeah, so do something that gives you energy. So drive comes from our internal energy, or intrinsic motivation, yeah, um. So, yeah, I say that because the first one resonates, but the second one doesn't. Um, I was going to give you two two's good powerful.

Speaker 2: 54:14

Two powerful two compassion and drive are the things that I think I'd love to see in our leaders. I like it.

Speaker 1: 54:20

And finally, any books podcasts, audio books, anything you ever listened to read which has had a real impact on you, would you say our leaders. I like it. And finally, any books, podcasts, audio books, anything you ever listened to read which has had a real impact on you, would you say?

Speaker 2: 54:35

I would say like a non-workbook, right, because it's my two books. There's a guy called Pat Rick Rothfuss and it's like the premise is like fantasy, but it's not. It's not sort of what I call high fantasy, but name of the wind in wise man's fear, I think. When I read it there's just so much like human insight and a joy in which it's written and the characters are so like well drawn and flawed, but also like they're excellent in in the way that I think they inform and educate. But I don't think it's written in that way. So I love just some of the lessons around how you deal with fear and like our place in the world, um, so I would say, um, read those, um, um, read those, um, um.

Speaker 2: 55:32

Okay, so, like I'll talk, there's lots of good emotion intelligence books, but I, the guy who wrote the first one, um, dan goldman, uh, why emotion intelligence? Why it can matter more than iq, I would say, just start there and and then there's tons, and if you want to drop me a line, there's other ones that I think add to that um, and the guy Josh Freeman, who is six seconds, you know, at the heart of leadership. So it's a really good book too. So there's lots, but I would say, if you want to learn about emotional intelligence, start with Dan Goldman and then expand your range from there.

Speaker 1: 56:00

Look, I want to thank you, paul, because you know this has been as powerful as I knew it would be, and it's a topic which is really important and I knew it was really important to record this with you because your journey, like you say, when you're 46, and you had that eureka moment going that course, a lot of people go for their lives and aren't looking to have that, and I think it's really important just to stop and reflect and really think about why and how we do things and the impact we have on others. And and I just think we are a slave to our emotions if, if we don't take control and that's what I've learned, a lot of that from you in terms of you know, really understanding that we are in control of what we do and how we think, but until we really sort of analyze that, then it's impossible because it's so, it's, it just becomes a complete subconscious. So, um, so, thank you. So much.

Speaker 2: 56:50

Can I just say one last thing just to people. Um, so I was at a conference earlier this week and there were like certainly two or three like really great speakers who've gone through amazing adversity and, like you know, absolutely phenomenal. And I think we often look to people in industry and business and we go, oh my god, like these people seem phenomenal but at times it can feel like inaccessible because it's like how have they got this superhuman resilience or strength of character or whatever. So if I'm putting myself out there for people to listen to, I want to say it's like the story of an ordinary boy and because I think most of us see ourselves just like you know we're. I think we're extraordinary all of us in terms of our individuality.

Speaker 2: 57:31

But I see myself in terms of this working class background. My family, you know, dad worked in the breweries, mom, you know, as a mom, but then dinner lady, and you know, uh, stroke, you know, times did okay at school and then it was like you know, you know, find a girl, settle down, get a job. You know it sounds like a rolling kitten song, that doesn't it? And uh, so I catch stevens. Um, so you're sort of thinking that in terms of, like, having a career and you stick to your job, and that's not ever and in the fact that I was 46 when I had this, I just see myself as like, yes, I've got some, you know, qualities and all that, as we all do, but I'm just an ordinary guy.

Speaker 2: 58:04

So if, if, this sort of stuff is accessible to me, literally, it's accessible to everybody. This isn't a tale of superhuman strength and overcoming that. It is something you can't link to. I just want to say to people listening this is for you. This can make a difference to you and the people around you. This is accessible. So please do look into it. You know, just google it whatever. Talk to me about if you want, but it's accessible and this is for you love that and and look I am.

Speaker 1: 58:39

You're a humble man, but I. You are great at what you do and I've had amazing feedback from anyone that's ever worked with you, so obviously your details are there and I know you're the bulk what you do and I've had amazing feedback from anyone that's ever worked with you. So obviously your details are there and I know the bulk of what you do is business to business now and across all sectors, and you are very qualified and excellent at what you do. So what's the best way for people to contact you, paul, is it LinkedIn, typically?

Speaker 2: 58:59

Yeah, so I mean, if you put the details up there, I mean you can put my email address up there. I mean you can put my email address up there. Um, linkedin is probably one of my, you know, on, the most sad. Or I don't have facebook or anything like that, so, like people go, yeah, he's using linkedin, your most used app. You know sounds a bit sad, doesn't it? So there, I think, um, you know, if you've got my mobile number on there, you know, drop me a message or whatever.

Speaker 2: 59:19

Um, I'm open to just have a chat. And again, none of this is yes, I've got it, I've got it. I've got to earn money and I've got to earn money. You know it's got to be a job, but actually I do this because I love it, really making a difference for people in business, but I do have some sort of private clients too. It was really important to me, so we're just going to sit down. If you do get in touch, there's no hard sell. I'm doing this because I love it and I want to make a difference, and if you do too, then to you and the life that you're living, then I'd love to have a conversation with you. Thanks, paul, that was great, and thank you for bringing yourself, for bringing your emotions and your insightful questions too. I really appreciate that.