Manufacturing Leaders
Currently the Number 1 Manufacturing Podcast on Spotify and Apple Podcasts!
Mark Bracknall, Founder of Theo James Recruitment is the host of Manufacturing Leaders.The UK is still a powerhouse in Manufacturing & Engineering. We speak to those who are helping to make those firms a success. By motivating, inspiring and managing teams.Are you new to management? Are you keen to hear from those who are dealing with the same day-to-day challenges you are facing?In this podcast we get inside the minds of the Managers in Manufacturing & Engineering, and understand how they get the best our of their teams and make Manufacturing & Engineering great.
Manufacturing Leaders
Importance Of Training Your Managers In Manufacturing
What happens when leaders shift from authoritative to collaborative styles? Find out from Maxine Henry, Group HR Manager at Dyer Engineering, as she shares her invaluable insights on modern leadership and HR culture transformation. This episode promises a deep dive into the evolving dynamics of leadership, where empowering teams and setting positive examples take precedence over having all the answers. Maxine discusses the pressures leaders face, especially during crises like COVID-19, and the importance of thoughtful decision-making in creating resilient organizations.
Throughout our conversation with Maxine, we explore the multifaceted nature of the HR profession and the personal qualities essential for success. From her career transition into HR to managing the complexities of redundancies, Maxine highlights the significance of resilience and maintaining professionalism. She underscores the need to prioritize the greater good over personal achievements, offering a candid reflection on the challenges and rewards of the HR field. This episode sheds light on the pivotal role HR plays in building organizational culture and the essential skills required to navigate such responsibilities effectively.
Moreover, we delve into the critical elements of fostering a thriving workplace culture through strategic recruitment and development. Maxine shares how Dyer Engineering is investing in employee training and aligning company values with ESG principles to strengthen community ties and employee loyalty. By sharing real-world examples, Maxine illustrates the power of a well-crafted employer value proposition and a commitment to inclusivity in creating a diverse and skilled workforce. Join us as we uncover how aligning personal and company values can transform not just an organization, but entire communities.
Please subscribe to the channel for more content! Theo James are a Manufacturing & Engineering Recruiter based in the North East, helping Manufacturing and Engineering firms grow across the UK. Please call us on 0191 5111 298
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Manufacturing Leaders Podcast with me Mark Bracknell, managing Director of Theo James Recruitment. In today's episode, we welcomed on Maxine Henry, the Group HR Manager of Dyer Engineering, based up in Stanley. I couldn't wait for this episode. Dyer are a key client of Theo James. Couldn't wait to interview Maxine. It's been a long time coming.
Speaker 1:If you are a senior or indeed HR professional of any level or operations professional, this is the episode for you. We talked in detail about EVP, employer value proposition and making sure you utilize everything in your business to maximize recruitment of attention, in particular, training, internal training, to make sure that people are progressing in the business at the right rate and managers are getting the right training they need to manage their staff, which also will help your retention and recruitment. We talk about ESG and building a community, which obviously will benefit the business and so much more Partnerships, management everything you'd hope and expect. This episode I really enjoyed it and I'm sure you will too. So please sit back and watch or listen, as ever. Please do me the honor of just clicking that like and subscribe button. It really, really helps grow the show. So thank you very much. Hope you enjoy the episode Right. A massive warm welcome this morning to Maxi Henry, the Group HR Director of Diet Engineering. Maxine, how are you?
Speaker 2:I'm well, thank you, You've given me a promotion already. I've literally just asked what it is.
Speaker 1:I've just repeated it, but we'll keep going with it. It was too much of a mouthful. Maxine has begged me to come on this podcast for many, many months, but we've finally got her on. I have begged her for many months and she's finally come more than accepted, so I'm looking forward to this, as are you, maxine, I'm sure.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Right. So the first question is a question I ask everyone who comes on what does it mean to you to be a leader?
Speaker 2:What does it mean to me to be a leader? I think for me and I often sum up my leadership style is that I'm quietly confident leader. Um so I'm not an in-your-face leader, I'm not a shouty occasionally I'm shouty, but generally I'm not. Um, and I think the most important thing to be a leader is to empower those around you to make, to enable them to make good decisions. Um so, for me, being a leader is setting examples and um, and living by those examples and your behaviors display what you want in an organization.
Speaker 1:So that's what it means to me to be a leader to set examples yeah, we like that, I like that phrase, that that sort of that quietly confident leader, as you put that, because I don't think that's the, I don't think people necessarily think management will be and I don't think it used to be that case. But I think we're seeing more of that now because people are almost confident. They don't have to be this dictatorship, screaming, shouting leader. And I think have you seen that? Have you seen that change over time? And have you seen that? Have you seen that change over time? Have you? And have you seen your style change over time? Would you say?
Speaker 2:yeah, definitely. I think those, the, the leaders that I have more respect for, the ones that don't have all the answers and the ones that they admit don't have all the answers. Um, I have my area of specialism. You know people, culture, that's, that's what I bring to the party, um, and that's, but I'm I openly admit I don't know everything, and you know people who work with me will hear me say well, every day is a school day, and it's something I say quite frequently. Sometimes I say it tongue-in-cheek, but really I mean it. There's always something that you learn from somebody else at work. Um, do?
Speaker 1:you do you? Because I I struggle with that. Sometimes I and probably not now actually to some extent. But I struggle with that piece where you mentioned there about in terms of not necessarily every day of school day internally, I struggled with I thought I needed to be the one that had all the answers. You know, I guess that something like you know, covid's probably a good example going through something like that where didn't have the answers but people were literally looking up at you, going give me answers, and I felt that pressure to need to give them the information I didn't have. Do you know what I mean? But I think that did you feel that?
Speaker 2:yeah, definitely, and I think I still struggle with that because I'm the most senior people leader in our business and people look to me to go well, what do you think, maxine? And there's a split second where I go well, I don't know. Yeah, and I don't know. But I think if you can always give yourself an opportunity and create space for yourself to think for more than a split second, you do know the answer and it might. You might not know the answer, but you know the questions to ask the people who are asking you what the answer is, because nine times out of ten they've already formulated the answer and they're just looking for you for guidance. So if you can kind of open the gates for them to think and enable them to to make the decision, and all you have to do is guide them and keep them on the right path, really I think that they're the qualities that I think they're a good leader that I look up to and that I respect.
Speaker 2:But I also think that you know people. That element is changing now and you know everybody brings something, their area, area of specialism but you can always bring something to the table because you've almost got fresh eyes if you're looking at a different area. You know, if I look at ops, you know it's completely different to what I do. But sometimes if I'm talking to one of the site leads and they and I ask questions like well, why are you doing it like that? Well, we've always just done it like that yeah, and you go well, well, what about they're like?
Speaker 1:oh, I never thought about it like that I, you know, I didn't give them an answer, but I just changed their thinking yeah, and actually the what I'm picking up there, which I think is is key and it's so hard, is the question piece to manage by asking questions and you you've probably still gone through this. When you were essentially giving instruction, you did that by asking the question, so they essentially came up with it, got them thinking what the result was yeah, yeah so yeah, never mind you, it's hard, but isn't it?
Speaker 1:because sometimes it's actually harder, I think, if you know the answer, because you just want to get it you didn't get on with your day. It's yeah it is.
Speaker 2:It's much more time consuming, um, allowing people to to kind of come up with their own ideas, um. But I think, in the long run, you know, you, you're sort of you're developing them as individuals as well, and I suppose, ultimately, that's what I'm here to do 100.
Speaker 1:I like to understand where, why you are where you are, and I think it'd be interesting briefly to go right back to the start in terms of you know, was HR a profession, an industry you always wanted to get into, is something you fell into? How did that come about?
Speaker 2:I suppose, like many people, I left school and I didn't really know what I wanted to do, so bummed around for a bit, got an apprenticeship randomly in IT, did that for 18 months, decided that wasn't for me, bummed around a little bit more um, and then I got a job for battery manufacturing in the sales uh department and I was doing quite well, um, but it I quickly learned, that wasn't for me either. So I liken myself to the drummer of the band. I will keep your beat of your organization, but I'm not your lead singer and I think to be successful in sales you need to be lead singers, and that's just. It's not my skill set, it's not an area where I'm particularly comfortable all of the time. But what I did enjoy was, you know, making relationships, connections, and I enjoy talking to people and kind of that's that conversational piece or the consultative element of sales, and so I enjoyed that um. And then, on a whim, so while I was doing, while I was working in sales, I was doing, I did a HND in uh business management. Did I do HND or HNC? One of the two, one of those? It was a long time ago, mark, that's over 20 years ago, um. So I did that and I really enjoyed the people element of that, um.
Speaker 2:So I went home one day and I said to my mum, because I'm still living at home, I'm going to give it all up and I'm going to university. And she was like, say what now? I was like, no, I'm just not happy, I'm going to go to uni. And she was she, thankfully, she was really supportive, um, and I went back to university. I say, when I went was all that?
Speaker 2:I wasn't old, I was 20 when I went to uni, um, but I had had that full-time job, I'd had the experience and the taste of what it was like to have a full-time job and wages and own a car and all that sort of stuff, um. So that really gave me the impetus to kind of knuckle down and and try hard. So I went back, I studied HRM uh, with CIPD accreditation, um, and then four years later I left and started my working career and I would say the rest is history. But, um, you know there's some, there's some challenges I overcame, um to get where I am today, but I'm really proud of what I've been able to achieve yeah, nice, and so you should be.
Speaker 1:If you look at the HR profession, I guess some people might be listening who are considering getting into HR, and it is multifaceted. A complete depends what type of organization organization you're in and what part you're in.
Speaker 2:What would you say now you're deep into it, are the, are the main skill sets and the main things you need to be passionate about and care about to do it justice, would you say um, I think to be successful in HR, you need to be able to leave your ego at the door, because ultimately, I think you need to allow people to make decisions of their own accord and there's no room for ego with that, because you are enabling people and pushing people forward to progress in their career and, whilst you don't necessarily stand back in your career, you watch people take promotions, you watch people get you know, stand in the spotlight.
Speaker 2:Certainly I have, and that doesn't bother me personally, but I think if, if, if that was your driver um, then maybe a different type of HR um would be more beneficial to you. I'm very much a generalist um, but I specialize in people and culture. Um, I don't know, maybe that's just the type of person that I am um, but I think somebody who ultimately cares about the greater good over their own personal achievements and would be successful in HR Do you think is there?
Speaker 1:how important is resilience? Because sometimes I look at the some of the duties that you know. Sometimes, if anything goes wrong in the business, I think, oh, that's a HR job. Do you know what I mean? And I think there's probably a lot of businesses like that. If there's something they're scared of, hr can deal with it, and it's often the the hard, tricky stuff sometimes is that is that, is that frustration? And do you think that resilience needs to be there? What do you say? Or is it just a different style of management you need to bring to the table?
Speaker 2:um, all of the above mark. Um, I think you're right, when stuff gets tricky, or just, you know, get HR to deal with that. Um, I mean, in Dyer there's only two of us. We've got 180 heads, so we can't do all of that. Um, and I suppose that leads on to this you know the people um the leadership development program that Sarah and I have wrote um, but, yeah, I think being able to be resilient in in, in times of adversity, hr is the face of the organization.
Speaker 2:Um, and you know, there's been times when I've stood up in a canteen and you know this is, this is an actual, true story. So I stood in a canteen, it was day before Christmas Eve and I made 253 well-deserved players. I put them at my canteen. It was day before Christmas Eve and I made 253 welders and players. I put them at risk of redundancy. You know it was just before Christmas and then I had to go home and kind of crack on with the rest of my life and then have Christmas, you know, and be happy knowing that. You know, two days ago I had, you know, put a lot of people at risk of redundancy. That's the inner resilience you need. You need to sort of be able to pick yourself up after those hard days and then crack on um with whatever else you've got to do. So, yeah, being resilient it I think is is quite key. Um, and being having a quite an open mind as well, I think is key.
Speaker 2:Uh, because people are a strange bunch, you know there is nothing as queer as folk um, and you think you've got somebody nailed down and they'll do something completely out of behavior and you go. I didn't see that coming um. And you have to just learn to sometimes just roll with punches with people, um, and then kind of figure out the best way forward and that story, that that you, that happens, unfortunately, you know.
Speaker 1:Manufacturing is a key example of that and look, that's happening right now, you know, for companies, unfortunately, because it's a tough market and exactly that. Not necessarily the decision, but that act, you know, often falls for the HR professional to do that, whether that's en masse or one-to-one, both very difficult. How do you do it? Do you just compartmentalize that and then deal with it, perhaps by yourself at home, you know whatever? Or have you sort of built strategies to try and mentally deal with that, because they're really tough situations? Whenever I've had to let someone go, I think it's got easier as a word, but I think I've probably built up strategies to deal with it or to justify it, probably, um, but when I first started doing it, it kept me up all night, really did, hated it yeah, um, I completely agree, mark.
Speaker 2:When I was younger, um, you know, I lived on a diet of red wine and cigarettes to get me through those situations. Yeah, yeah, I've since. I've since developed better coping strategies yeah, vaping lemonade yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Um. So no. Um, I think when I was younger that was sort of how I dealt with it and I was quite angry at the situation. Um, you know, there was some poor decision making that I didn't agree with at the time and but I sat on on kind of my beliefs or my views. Um, I subsequently don't do that anymore. Um, if I've got something to say, I share that in appropriate, appropriate way. And then if we're in a situation where we are making redundancies and they're the only option after we've explored everything else, um, you know, and I have to do that, um, it doesn't, it's not something I do lightly, um, but I have, I have been able able to compartmentalize it. You know, running I do, and that's a good way to kind of expel that negative thought processes or write it down. You know, write down angry thoughts and then they're out and then you can kind of move on with it. Plus, I've got two small humans you know two boys.
Speaker 2:I haven't got time for that stuff, so as soon as I walk in the door like man, man, man, man, man. Um. So so yeah, I suppose life just changes, doesn't it, and you just kind of learn different ways to to get on with stuff. But yeah, it was really hard when I was younger, really hard.
Speaker 1:I'd like just to you mentioned before about the training piece and um, you complete your athlete. There'll be a lot of companies there, a lot of hr listening this, thinking yeah, every problem seems to land at my door. And that's the culture of the business. And I think a lot of businesses like that that if a, if a team leader or a manager can't deal with something, they just go that that way. It's hr. How, how do you start to to to change that culture and and create a change? I know Daya, obviously. I know you're very passionate about the training piece and making people make decisions themselves. How do you start that process in the business, would you say? Can you tell a little bit about what? Tell us a little bit about what Daya have done and are doing on that, because it's a long process, isn't it?
Speaker 2:yeah, it's not an overnight thing. Um, you know, I was laughing with richard the other day and we were talking about culture and like changing stuff and I flippantly said I'll just nip down the sand spree and you know, we've got a two for one offer, so and? But no, it's, it's not like that. It comes from senior leaders role modeling, their expectations and their behaviors. So whoever is the most senior leader in the team in your company needs to be on board with behavioral changes, because it doesn't matter what people say, actions always speak louder than words, words. So if the your team doesn't see the most senior leader leader buying into what you're talking about and the changes you want to make, then it won't work in the organization. And I've worked in companies like that in the past and I've left companies like that in the past for that very reason. Um, fortunately now I work at dyer and they're very much the senior leaders. All of them are very much on board with creating a company that we're all proud of, that we all want to work at, where everybody can come and do their best at work. You know, we recognize that some people just want to come to work, do their bit and go home again, and that's completely fine, and there's a home for them at diet. We also recognize that people come to work and want something more, and we recognize that and there's a home for them at Dyer. We also recognise that people come to work and want something more and we recognise that and there's a home for those at Dyer as well.
Speaker 2:But I suppose, in terms of training people, it's about you do the hard work up front. You role model behaviours up front, and that's hard. And then you call out those behaviours when they're not aligned to what you're trying to do your role model behaviors up front, and that's hard. And then you call out those behaviors when they're not aligned to what you're trying to do and the way you know. You have to call them out in a way that's respectful and a way that you know it's going to land with the individual. Um, and that's hard in the in the first instance, but you really have to stick true to your values and the culture that you want to create, because you can let a culture emerge and it might be quite toxic, or you can build a culture that you're proud of, but that takes hard work and hard conversations at the beginning.
Speaker 1:Part yeah, yeah, and I completely agree. And actually, you know it takes a long time to change your culture, isn't it?
Speaker 1:and your culture is going to do this absolutely if I think about my business, we're a small 15, 16 staff and it's it's cultures change throughout year on year to some extent, but you bang on. If it doesn't come from your senior leaders, it just can't, it can't happen. Half has to be that that top-down approach and you're always going to get some not so resistance, but you always can get some people who care more than others about that and that's that. That's probably okay.
Speaker 1:Um, the manufacturing is quite an archaic industry. It just is, and a lot of lot that that mentality of this is. This is the way we've always done it. So why should we change? And I think a lot of feedback I get from from companies and speaking, seeing leaders or hr or whatever it they feel that resistance that their team will not change. I know you're actively trying to do that and and you know the I love the culture of diet I've got my diet mug here, by the way, just FYI, thank you, but yeah, some more, because somebody stole mine, so can I have another one?
Speaker 1:But the book. How important is that values piece? And because there's a difference in there between just having them on the wall and we were guilty of that a few years ago. We had them on the wall. I actually remember asking people what they were and it was behind them. They couldn't remember. So we completely flipped it and we started to do everything about the values which they picked. How important is that in a business, and is that something that you're passionate about, would you say?
Speaker 2:Yes, I'm very passionate about values because for me, if my personal values are not aligned to the company who I'm working for, their values, then I'm working outside my value structure and decisions become difficult to make. I think we are transitioning at dia um, we've we've got, we've got our sst um framework, um, and that helps us make decisions. Um, it helps us make good decisions as well, because we, the decisions we ask ourselves now is is this decision closer or further away from these principles that you know as a collective, that we've agreed on? They help set expectations, they help drive our behaviours and our decision making as well, and also how people come to then expect a certain level of expectations. I've used the word expect twice there, but people then know how we'll respond in situations because we, you know, we stay as a leadership team, aligned to our SSD behaviours. So SSD stands for smarter, stronger together.
Speaker 1:Apologies for interrupting this podcast. We have a very quick, 30-second description of my business. Theo James are an engineering and manufacturing recruitment search firm based in Durham. We specialize in contracts and permanent opportunities, from blue-collar to semi-skilled roles, right the way up to C-suite level exec positions. If you're looking for any new, additional staff or new opportunity for yourself in the industry, please contact me or the team. There'll be a specialist in your area waiting to help.
Speaker 1:I'm incredibly proud of this business and what we've built since our inception in 2015. And I would love to extend that service out to you. So thank you very much. Hope you enjoy the episode. Yeah, 100%, and you know you can see you walk in the door. You can see that and we've said before people, when you walk in that door, people greet you and that sort of thing is first impressions and that is, it's embedded into the culture, which is really important. The training piece, because I'm really passionate about training. I think it is one of the biggest no-brainers. If one of the biggest no brainers. If you look at EVP, which we'll talk about, I think training internally is just the one, because that's the one that, for me, that keeps people there. I know you've, is it 50, 50, inclusive leadership training. Is that something you've just done?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we worked with Lindsay Britton, lindsay Lee Britton and Lindsay Harville, so I've known them both a long time. Um, and so sarah and I so sarah's my people partner, sarah churchill, um. So sarah and I developed a leadership program um internally and we it's a six, seven month program which will roll out monthly, and so we've identified 28 people leaders. So these are current people leaders or um like leaders in waiting, if you like. So we're sort of strengthening our pipeline, our talent pipeline, um, but what we did in order to launch the program is we worked with lindsey and lindsey from 50 50 to create an inclusive leadership um framework almost, and we're going to use that inclusive leadership framework almost and we're going to use that inclusive leadership to as the framework or the lens for the rest of the people leadership that we're sort of developing. So it's very much an introduction to.
Speaker 2:So phase one it's about line management, protected characteristics how to have difficult conversations, how to give good feedback, or effective feedback rather, because good feedback is always easy to give Coaching conversations, those type of things that you know people are promoted because they're technically excellent and then their expectation is, because they're technically brilliant, that they'll then become good people, leaders. But your payroll is the biggest expense on your P&L. It's huge, but it's the least amount invested. And I remember working in an engineering company many moons ago and we bought some new equipment. It was a million pounds worth of stuff.
Speaker 2:It was a big piece of kit I don't know what it was, um, I knew it cost a million quid and we hired somebody specifically for uh, to look after this piece of kit. Um, and then I said to my md at the time um, because the payroll was half a million a week, and I said we don't train our people. And he was like, well, yeah, because. And I said, look, we've just bought this piece of kit and it was a million pound, we've just hired somebody in order to maintain that. And he was like I said so we spend half a million a week and we don't maintain that.
Speaker 2:And he was like, ah okay I get you yeah, um yeah, good because I was able to translate that to him in a way that he understood.
Speaker 2:Um, interestingly enough, my training budget went up by, you know, a significant amount not quite, but uh, but yeah, but it is know you have to give people leaders the opportunity to kind of be the leaders that they are or that they want to be. And a lot of leaders only will only experience leadership from the people who are their leaders. But if they haven't been trained, you know there's the ability to pick up negative or bad habits. The ability to pick up negative or bad habits. But if you, if we set as um, if we set the bar high with our people leaders, you know they can then help us build this culture of of kind of being open, um, you know, being open to change and ask. I often say to people you have to seek to understand, rather be understood, because then you're always putting your position, yourself in their position, um, and then you can get to a decision better if you understand where that person's coming from, because you understand their frustration too yeah, that's great.
Speaker 1:That's a great way to put it, because I I literally I couldn't agree more. I think the biggest mistake businesses make is not training their, not train their managers. And we see it time after time you just get brought into a room. You're great at your job, we're now going to make your manager here's three grand more. Do you know?
Speaker 1:what I mean where exactly? But they'll train to do it and it's a completely different job and in essence, they've still got to do probably the current job and a manager job and they can't do it. And then, yeah, exactly, you say those bad habits just trickle down, because they're literally just teaching them and you won't. You only really know what you know.
Speaker 2:As simple as that, until someone tells you different, yeah, and you always choose the path of least resistance as well, and sometimes that is like, oh well, I'll just do it myself because it's easier and it's quicker. But you know all you're doing is creating a run for your own back there completely agree.
Speaker 1:Um, employer, employer value proposition, evp has always been like a buzz terminology for the last sort of 12 to 18 months, but it's always been there, it's always been around. It's just. I think companies which is a positive thing in a difficult market are looking at this now because of the surge in salaries over the last sort of 18 months have just gone astronomical. I think companies are going right, we now can't pay more in what pnl? What else can we do? So now they're looking at this and they're using these buzzwords. But I have seen some great stuff in businesses, um, and as I think training is, personally I think it's the number one. I think it's the one thing you can do tomorrow because you didn't actually have to cost you any money. It's good to get external training and we don't need to do it if you haven't got a training budget. Um, is that something that that evp piece? Is that something you? You've always been quite passionate about, and have you seen that change over the last couple years?
Speaker 2:yeah, I'd say it's always been a thing, um, and I would say in the last seven years it's kind of started to gain momentum, and then even more so on the back of covid, because you know, people had that ability to go. Well, actually I'm going to work from home and oh, actually I've saved an hour a day commuting, and what else can I do with that time or whatever um. So I think for us the evp is really important. So if you look at our work profile, our workforce profile, 82 of our people live within um a 12 mile radius of our company, um, and then of that that equates to that. That skill level is only equal to um 16 of the workforce, of the northeast workforce, and I I only know 16 because Sean worked that out for me.
Speaker 1:He likes his data, he'll be judging me too, I'm sure.
Speaker 2:So if I know I've only got 16% of the Northeast workforce that I can pull from, then that value proposition piece is unbelievably important because we have raised our salaries to the maximum that our budget can afford and we'll continue to raise and keep pace. You know, we always pay above the national living wage, we pay above that. So because, again, that's something that is important to us. But if I've only got 16% of the workforce, then you know I've got to come from somewhere. So for me that's really important.
Speaker 2:I think if I look at the trends of why people have left Dyer in the last couple of years, it's they've either moved out of the area, they've gone for more money or lack of personal development, and by and large those are three reasons. Now I can't influence if somebody moves out of the area and to a certain extent I can't influence if somebody is paying more than us. But I can influence personal development and I can influence that by creating good people, leaders that then allow their team to to take a step forward. We can create training plans, we can give people opportunity for personal development, and it doesn't always have to be upwards, it can be diagonal or sidestep, you know, because to be a to be a leader. A leader it's not necessarily of people. It can be of processes, of projects, of anything really, it's about finding what people are really passionate about and engaging them in a way where they can make a difference at work.
Speaker 1:And it gets back to exactly what you said empowering people. Do you know what I mean? That whole issue piece, what you said empowering people. Do you mean that the whole issue piece, that passion view, is empowering people to, to just to be whatever they want to be essentially?
Speaker 2:As long as people feel recognized and valued at work.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like that's the most important thing. I think you know people just want to come to work, know that they're doing a good job and go home again, and if, if you can make that process in the middle nicer when they're at work, then you know that's where the engagement comes from yeah, and you mentioned that community piece because you're absolutely right, you know what good companies do.
Speaker 1:They they build that community inside of work with, with the culture, but actually they make sure they are their employer of choice in the area. And I think it's very difficult because in most areas you've still got a lot of big competition because that's just. You know, the northeast there's probably any uk particularly northeast there's a lot of competition in the area. How do you do that? Because you mentioned that exactly that you, you and I both know people have left companies locally for a drop in salary to join that you're in June because of the everything we just just mentioned. But how do companies start to build that community, feel, if you like, and sort of be that employer of choice again? It's a long process, isn't it?
Speaker 2:yeah, it is um, but I think your first step is to look at why are you doing it like? If it's to tick a box, then you're not going to achieve what you set out to do. But if you truly believe that you want to be an employer of choice, then you have to bake that in at the beginning. It goes, it's part of your values, for us as well. So I'm the ESG lead as well. Um. So esg stands for I'm gonna have to remember this now. Uh, environmental, social and governance. Yeah, like, what does it stand for? I just rattled on the tongue, glad you said that um.
Speaker 2:So for us, you know, we have different people who kind of take a lead in different areas. I look after the social element as well as the overarching, and so for us, you know, stanley is a small area and the majority of our people live in our area, so they are our community, so we spend. So, I suppose, roll that back the 17 UN Sustainable Development Goals. So we've aligned ourselves to 14 of those. We've broken them down into four key areas, which is a sustainable business plan. We have um a sustainable environmental plan. We have a social impact plan and our um governance plan, and so those are the three. Those are sorry. Those are the four areas how that help us drive our decision making, but it also enables us to work within the community. I've gone off track, mark. What was the question that you asked me?
Speaker 1:It links in because essentially it's building a community inside but it's also building a community outside and, like you say that ESG, that piece, I think people will see that and just go, oh, it's sustainability, and they almost go off a tangent about just solar panels and stuff, which obviously all this stuff is really important. But all this stuff you mentioned there, that is that links in with the, with the culture and and everything about your business, because it's more about the, the social piece, everything and it comes with it and I think that's the important bit that companies miss yeah, I think so.
Speaker 2:I saw one of our um. So one of our values is that we care, so we care about our people and we care about our culture, our community.
Speaker 2:And then, when I joined and I looked at the maternity benefits and I was like, well, we only offer statutory. And they were like uh-huh. And I said so, but we care about our culture, our people. And like uh-huh, I said so, but we care about our culture, our people. And like her, I said so, can you explain to me why, if somebody is going to have a baby, that we then give them statutory maternity and paternity allowance? And I said, because those are the people that are then raised in the next generation and if they're not properly looked after, they're not going to come back to us, and then we're going to have to start again. And I said and then you know it's, it's so expensive to live these days, so if you're then reducing somebody's salary, they're going to push them into poverty.
Speaker 2:And these are our people, this is our community. Ah, I hadn't thought about that. Yeah, right, so let's go back to the drawing board. And does our policies and procedures reflect our culture and our values and what we want to drive? And so those are the positive changes that we're making in order to reinforce that we care about our community because our, our community that surrounds Dyer Engineering are our people.
Speaker 2:You walk into test schools and it's like a Dyer outing especially at lunchtime so you know you go to the one shop where everybody from Dyer Engineer goes to buy their lunch yeah you know, and? And people are earning their salary yeah, earning their salary at Dyer and spending it in their local community yeah um, and so you know it all goes back to your culture, culture and sort of doing the right thing because it matters. Those are the things that matter to us.
Speaker 1:And for me, I think you know I've been lucky enough to work closely with the business and see the inside and I guess I haven't got that level of intimacy with every single company, but actually I've been been in enough companies.
Speaker 1:I've worked in enough companies to notice a difference. And we mentioned right at the start, but I think, the importance of your senior leaders being the ones that really sort of start that process. I remember that we sat in a room with probably 25 people who work for the business team leaders well that type of stuff and you spoke about the culture. You spoke about S leaders well, that type of stuff and you spoke about the culture. You spoke about SST and I remember Richard speaking about it and him talking about the importance of what it should feel for someone who passes their probation for the business and gets that hand and go, I've got it and goes home and tells the family I've passed probation, I've got a contract and that stuff. I think that a lot of companies just take for granted that you don't mean that. People just presume actually you know they're the, they're massive, but if people understand how big that is for employees, new people coming in, that's how you start to embed that culture of I'm working this company.
Speaker 2:I'm proud of it as well yeah, and it goes back to the recruitment piece and I suppose that's why we partnered with you, mark, because you got us as a company, you got our values, you got what we were trying to achieve. So the biggest thing for me when I'm talking about recruitment is we recruit on values and we train on skill. I can train anybody to do pretty much anything. You know, I've made a career out of it. What I can't do is change somebody's core values and when I, you know earlier I mentioned I know I needed to work for a company that was aligned to my personal core values and that's important. That we bring people in that would add to that value, to sorry, that would add value to our culture, not just fit in with our culture. Bring something with you that would add value to our culture, not just fit in with our culture, bring something with you. So that recruitment piece is so it's the most important step because we've got to get the right people in the door. Once they're in the door, then we help them make a career out of it.
Speaker 2:But, yeah, it's identified. So we spent a lot of time with Theo James, you know, enabling our hiring managers to interview properly and look beyond the standard questions of can you tell me about a time when and so we've shifted our questions to so, if you're in a difficult situation, can you explain to me how you'd make a decision situation? Can you explain to me how you'd make a decision? Because that then gets to the core values of that individual and are they aligned to what we want, to we, what we're looking for, and they're the people. They're the people that we hire, because they're the successful hires. So fortunately um sean was not yesterday. The day before was round.
Speaker 2:It was round like he nipped round for a cover, just cause, especially at starbucks, um, but he was there for a reason we were doing the, the annual review of you know kind of how theo, theo james and dyer are working together, um, and he shared something like you've recruited for us, I think it's about 28 positions in the last 12 months, um, and of those there was only been two poor hires. And when that rate is phenomenal, um, you know, and it's down, I think it's down to the work, the diet we do, but also the work that theo james has done, isn't it?
Speaker 1:it's a total partnership.
Speaker 2:You know, and it's been a rocky ride, your first six months were tricky, let's you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:But I think we worked together, we had a core. You know we had a common outcome that we both wanted to achieve, and I always approach those conversations with you and with Sean and the rest of the team is conversations with you and with Sean and the rest of the team is what can we do to make this better?
Speaker 1:and, and between us, we've been able to identify 28 you know, smashing people, um, and they're still with us now so, and they're still contributing and they're, you know, one of them's being promoted anyway, so you know they're really good people stories it goes back to that recruitment piece and finding the people that have the right values 100 and that and that, and I really appreciate it and I think that's where the partnership should work, because we should understand your values but essentially, when they walk through the door, that that culture and everything we talk about has to be right, you know it has to be right and it is and that and that. That's the difference and that's why you should be very proud of what you've, what you've done there as a business to to really sort of bring people in, make them feel special and make them recognize. One thing I'd like to um just ask you about is you mentioned a little a little bit ago about, you know, maternity pay, for example? Um, manufacturing is still very dominated by, by male men, is particularly, you know, the northeast white male men. It's it's, it's the way it is. And I'm starting to see slower change, but very, very slowly. And I think it's only changing for companies who actually proactively try to change it, because I don't think it happens organically.
Speaker 1:That change alone of looking at a maternity pay, that change alone can have a massive difference because essentially, if it's just data, it's probably just saying we don't really thought about this. It's just, you know, you get the least possible legally you can get, but actually changing it, a female looking to work the business and go, actually, well, they obviously care. They obviously care about me in my long-term future, essentially because that you're removing that possible barrier, just as manufacturing as a whole I I guess. What more do companies need to do to not just females but underrepresented groups and the minorities? What more do companies need to do to sort of try and break that, would you say?
Speaker 2:That's a big question.
Speaker 1:The big interview question.
Speaker 2:It is a big question question is a big question. Um, look, we we haven't got it right. You know we haven't got maternity and paternity benefits right at the moment, but we have a desire to make it right and they're expensive. Let's not be about the bush, you know. And you, you can't wake up one day and go right, okay, so I'm going to take maternity benefits from statutory to, uh, six months full pay for you know it's just not going to happen. You know that's a five-year plan. It may be even more, I don't know.
Speaker 2:I'd like it to be overnight, but you know that's a story for another day um but realistically, you know we haven't got it right, but we have a desire to get it right. I think, in order to create inclusivity, you ask those people, what do they need?
Speaker 2:and then you marry you, you marry that with what your company is capable of doing and it might be that you can only give five percent of what they want, you know, overnight, but over a five-year process. You know the retention. Our retention strategy looks like X, Y, Z and year one, we'll do this. Year two, we'll do this. Year three, we'll do something else. Year four, you know, dies on a growth plan, and we have. You know, we've got a five-year growth plan that we are aggressively working towards and there's there's internal changes that are going on and that enable us to make that, um, that plan. Because we know if what do they say the definition of insanity is is expecting something different but not changing yeah, basically it's doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results that's it.
Speaker 2:Uh, so we, we, you know, we looked at ourselves and was like, right, okay, so if we want something, we want a different outcome. We know we're gonna have to do something differently. So we are starting to do things differently and the conversation is not, you know, in the six, next six months. It looks like this the conversation is right, in five years, what, where do we need to be? And then we track back and go right, well, we need to make a change here and we need to make a change here and to do this. And if we achieve this and we can do that, and if we don't achieve this, then the outcome's that and they're the conversations as a leadership team that we're having at the moment.
Speaker 2:So, we haven't got it right. We acknowledge that we haven't got it right, but we also know that we will get it right. It's just going to take us time to get there. But I think, to go back to what you said about, you know how do you recruit or attract, um, you know, smaller minorities. For me it goes to grassroots. So we're spending a lot of time now with colleges, so, and schools, so we, you know with, so we've also partnered with new college Durham to create a learning partnership, um, so all of our apprentices go through um new college Durham. Uh, so at the moment now we've got 14 apprentices which is it's smashing, honestly, it is.
Speaker 2:It's absolutely amazing, um, and they range from first years to fourth years now, um, but our ambition is to have 10 of the workforce yeah so you know, every year it's not just hiring six or seven, but it's hiring 10, because we know that you know more, more people's going to come out at the other end, um, but it's, it's more modeling to those younger people. Actually, you can have a career and it looks like this you have to go back to the grassroots and and really engage, um, you know younger people to go.
Speaker 2:Actually, you know, you don't have to be a youtuber, uh, which is what my son wants to be we all do now mostly yeah well, yeah, but you could have a job in engineering and it could look like this you know you could wear a welding mask or you can program a CNC machinist or you can be a draftsperson or quality engineer or planning engineer. You know there's so many different opportunities working in manufacturing, not just you know the sort of the standard, you know the standard role, the engineer that builds stuff. You know there's lots of different career opportunities that we have, but for me it starts at grassroots. I can't change somebody's mind at, you know, 40, 50. I can change somebody's mind. I can influence somebody at 16 to make a different decision or make them want to choose us 100%, and it's even further back than that, isn't it?
Speaker 1:I think the data now shows that. You know, from like six to 10, that's the age where kids sort of turn. And you know my little lad's five and I can see his mind. He likes to see how things. He's not like me, I can't put a picture up. You know what I mean. He likes to understand how things are put together and if they break, you're like, and I just think that there's probably something in building people that age, but if they're not then shown the path, then they'll just forget it.
Speaker 2:It's as simple as that, so you're absolutely right right, yeah, I mean, I'd love to be in a position where we can go into primary schools and show them. You know, virtual welding sets and tabletop machine, cnc machine, a single. Here's a piece of metal. If you press these buttons you get your name on it yeah I mean honestly, like her or the cns.
Speaker 2:You know the virtual welding, you know you look through the mask and I laugh at the. I'll laugh at glenn um, because he says I just talk to people for a living and I say that he clags pieces of metal together.
Speaker 2:Well done, it's both a little bit more complex than that, but if you can show you know kids, you know six to 10 year old like you could do this as a job. You know it's really interesting because it's tactile and at that age, you know it's really interesting because it's tactile and at that, at that age, you know it's. It's something different, isn't it? It's a different opportunity, um, but you know people have to want to do that to and and again. That's something that you don't do overnight either. It's.
Speaker 2:It's something that takes, you know, time and investment, um, because you know nowadays people don't have that luxury of time, um, or you know smaller organizations, smes, don't have the ability to go. Actually, I'm just going to hire somebody that's going to manage the outreach program because there's not a you know there's not an invest that returns not immediate. You know that, returns of 15, 20 years down the line, um. So for us it's about creating a big group of people internally that are interested in this and actually don't mind giving up their free time to go and talk in schools. So we've identified those people and they go to talk to, to other people in schools as well I think.
Speaker 1:I think it's amazing because the more companies do that, it's the only way we're going to start to change this culture. It is because people just still there's still no awareness about how because you're right, there's people probably still think of engineers as just this mundane job which is so different where it's, you know, it's unionized minimum salary. It was not. I mean the salaries you can earn, the careers you can have, the opportunity you can earn the, the careers you can have, the opportunity you can have unbelievable it is, and you've got to be in it to know about it. Unfortunately, that's the problem. So it is, the more people do that, the better. Um, amazing stuff. Just just finally, obviously you know I'm in a great spot right now. What the next sort of 12 to 18 months, any sort of anything on the horizons? You mentioned growth. That's good for me.
Speaker 2:We are yes, yes, it's good for you.
Speaker 2:We had that conversation with sean yesterday the day before um yes, I think some of the growth sectors for us um is is defense, is energy, um, you know sort of we want to be known as a global engineering partner, um, and, and that goes back to knowing really well what our company value proposition is, where we add value, how we can partner with um. You know organizations that work within our sectors where we know we can add value. Um, for me personally, I enjoyed the um energy sector because we work in renewables and we talk about renewable energy and that's quite sustainable because it fits nicely with our sustainability goals as an organisation. So they're the markets for me personally, but as an organisation, I think energy, rail, defence, they're key markets, um, and they're growing markets as well. So, um, that's yeah, that's sort of where, where we're going exciting.
Speaker 1:But look, I just want to thank you. It's been uh, it's been brilliant and, all jokes aside, you know I did beg you to come on this podcast for many months, but you're, you're excellent and you know what. I think a lot of, a lot of people listen to this, probably driving to work, wherever going. Yeah, we need to sort our training out. We need to look after our people. You know I'm, you know I'm a do enough because ultimately, this stuff takes some time, but one person can't change it, but it needs to come from the top.
Speaker 1:But I think what you've demonstrated there is you can work with your leadership team to empower them, to train them, to make them better people essentially, the people coming in below them make them better, and that's how you create a culture of just progressive training. And you know that. I think the apprenticeship thing is amazing because there's probably because of COVID, there's been a big gap in the industry because in that time but more companies need to do that to really sort of build this industry back to where it needs to be in the UK, which is an absolute powerhouse. So yeah, but thank you so much, maxine. It's been excellent. I really enjoyed it.
Speaker 2:Thank you, mark, it wasn't as bad as I thought it was going to be.
Speaker 1:Thank you very much for watching or listening to that episode of the Manufacturing Lease podcast. I'm sure by now you realize how good diet engineering are as a business and, hopefully, how good they are to work for. As Maxine kindly mentioned, we've been partnering down the engineering now for 12 months and continue to do so, and we are currently looking for two machinists to join their factory in Stanley. As a business, they engineer and fabricate parts for the automotive, defence and rail industry and they are growing and doing extremely well. By now you'll know how good they are as a business and how much you look after their staff. So please get in touch if you are a machinist or know anyone who are looking for new machinist opportunities, but not just machinists. We're always looking for an machinist opportunities, but not just machinists. We're always looking for a array of people for Dyer. So please get in touch with Theo James to talk about that in a bit more detail. Once again, thank you so much for listening or watching this episode. Have a fantastic day.