Manufacturing Leaders

6 Traits Of Mastering Leadership

• Mark Bracknall • Season 9 • Episode 1

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Ever wondered what it takes to truly inspire and lead in today's dynamic business environment? Join us as we engage with Paul Edwards, the insightful Managing Director of Jonesco in Preston, who redefines leadership beyond the bounds of authority and command. Discover the transformative impact of mentorship through Paul's personal journey and his unique emphasis on empowering others, drawing from his own experiences with a strong educational and familial foundation. This conversation is rich with anecdotes and real-life examples that demonstrate how teaching and leadership intersect to nurture talent and drive career success.

Leadership isn't just about having a title—it's about crafting a compelling vision and fostering a culture of open communication and accountability. Paul sheds light on what businesses can learn from having a clear purpose and how strategic thinking acts as a guiding force. We discuss the nuances of crafting genuine vision statements and how empowering team members to share their insights can revolutionize a company's trajectory. Tune in to hear how Jonesco leverages data and clear communication to align their team and drive decision-making.

Leaders today face the challenge of adapting their styles to foster psychological safety and encourage vulnerability. Paul's reflections offer a fresh perspective on how creating an inclusive environment can unleash the full potential of a team. With lessons from his own career, including admiration for influential leaders, Paul highlights the importance of continuous improvement, learning from external sources, and valuing diverse input. This episode promises to equip you with actionable insights into modern leadership practices, championing a culture of collaboration and continuous growth for personal and organisational success.

Please subscribe to the channel for more content! Theo James are a Manufacturing & Engineering Recruiter based in the North East, helping Manufacturing and Engineering firms grow across the UK. Please call us on 0191 5111 298

Speaker 1:

so, uh, um. Well, I mean what I? What I tend to do now is I tend to record the introduction after you've gone, so I tend to just do that myself, which is a bit of a summary about what we talked about, which means when, when we, when we start, I just sort of crack straight on and we go into it, if that's all right, paul. But I mean, are those topics we'll just have a chat around, but are they okay as a general guide? And what have you I've got? I might look down from time to time, have a look at them, but are they okay as a general guide? And what have you? I might look down from time to time, never look at them, but are they all good, are they?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I mean I might glance down as well, because I've printed off a few sort of supporting documents just to refer to. But yeah, it's all good for me. I mean, I assume you edit this anyway, so if I make a few blunders or fluff me lines, you'll edit it out, Although I suppose you've got to keep it authentic, though I do yeah, it's very rare.

Speaker 1:

We've edited a couple of things here and there where someone's gone. Please can you edit this out? I've messed up, but normally I just think I like it being quite an authentic chat where it's not scripted corporate, it's just a conversation really. So yeah, but obviously you know we can if need be. So it takes the pressure off a little bit. It's know if we, we can, if db, so it takes the pressure off a little bit.

Speaker 1:

There's not live jeremy. I have been thinking of doing some live sort of linkedin ones. People keep saying they're better for the uh algorithms and whatnot. So I'll, I'll maybe go for that, but we'll see. We'll see, but but no, when I, when I go for it, we'll just go straight into it and then, um, I'll get the company name wrong and we'll see what happens. So that's not a problem, I'm ready when you are, paul. So excellent. A warm welcome say to Paul Edwards, the MD of Genesco based in Preston. Paul, someone I spoke to probably about initially, probably three years ago, as a candidate, and at the time I think I was just starting the podcast and thought he would be fantastic. And quite a lot of time has elapsed and we've finally got him on, so it's going to be a great episode, and you are a man who has many professions within the industry of manufacturing and management, so I'm looking forward to this. How are you, paul?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I'm very well. Thanks. I was just finishing a cough suite. As I explained earlier, I've had a bit of a cough over the weekend so I was trying to clear my vocal cords ready for all the questions you're going to ask me. But it's a pleasure to be here. Yeah, we've spoken on and off for some time and yeah, I do have quite a wide, varied influence across manufacturing, so I'm looking forward to a good chat.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, me too, me too. So same question. I ask everyone who comes on the podcast what does it mean to you to be a leader? What do you say?

Speaker 2:

yeah, this is. This is a good question because, um, you know, if I think about me personally, you know, I I think I had sort of some initial sort of leadership traits, characteristics you know from from, from being a young kid and, I think, know everyone has their own personality and some people are more suited to leadership, you know, some aren't. But that's not just enough in itself, you know, obviously you then shape yourself, you get coach, mentored, you have experience and you gradually go through life and you sort of you emerge, don't you, as a sort of leader, and then or someone spots those leadership talents and coaches and nurtures and brings them out. So for me personally, being a leader it's not about reaching a level of your career where you're sort of in the position of power or command and control. It's really about being able to bring the best out in others, either individuals or businesses or organizations, and it's almost like you feel that you have a duty to do that. You know, someone spotted the potential in me over the years.

Speaker 2:

I was lucky to have a really good education, you know, went through college and university, had some really good career, you know, had some great jobs, worked for some great people, learned things, as I've gone along taking little bits from here, taking little bits from there, and then I've sort of supported people through their careers and I've taken a lot of satisfaction from that.

Speaker 2:

I used to work for a guy who used to say one thing I love about you, paul, is you support the underdog. And what he meant by that was if I saw the potential in someone, I would go out of my way and give them a lot of my time to coach, mentor and develop them, on the assumption that that's what they wanted. So I kind of feel that, from a personal point of view, being a leader is putting something back. You know, I'm a massive fan of British manufacturing, you know, and everything that does for the economy, and that's why I sort of mix in the circles.

Speaker 2:

I mix with manufacturing organizations such as Make UK. That's why I do the work I do for Human Alchemy, to help others and give them the benefit of everything I've had the benefit of. And it's almost like you feel you've got a responsibility to do that, a duty to do that. It's not all about take, take, take, take, so that then you can become this powerful leader and earn a big salary and have a great career. It's about learning along the way and then passing on the benefits of that learning to others yeah, a great answer.

Speaker 1:

Where do you think that comes from in you? Because not not everyone has that inbuilt sort of desire to not necessarily not help people, but you, you go that one step further and you mentioned yourself that underdog mentality. You know that. That is, I would say, a step further than the most your traditional leader. Where do you think comes from for you?

Speaker 2:

I. I think it's probably got to come out of the fact that both my parents were teachers, and in very difficult environments. So my mum taught deaf children. My dad used to work in special schools. So they, you know, they had to overcome some real obstacles and I could see them get a huge satisfaction from it. And actually my wife is a teacher and she's one of those teachers that I really admire and respect in that she really cares about the student's outcome and you can see she's not just turning up to do a job, to come home and then, you know, not pay the bills. It's an absolute passion and it's the satisfaction and the personal reward and feeling of a sense of achievement when you see someone deliver and deliver to their potential.

Speaker 2:

And you know, I've mentored people within organizations in the last business I've worked for, where you know, there was a young lad who had huge potential, great engineer, and he said Paul, to be honest, you know, I wasted my education. I was a young lad, I was interested in going out with my mates, I wasn't interested in school. And he said now I regret it and I could see this huge level of potential in him. And I said well, do you know what we're going to sponsor you to do an HND, to go out and day release. And he went from being an operator on the shop floor making parts to being one of our best design engineers, design and development engineers and it was great to see him personally develop and that level of gratefulness that he had for the fact that I'd taken so much time to help him. But he was a great asset to the business so it was an absolute win-win and he's still doing well to this day and I've seen that before.

Speaker 2:

So I love to see people achieve and when you see that potential in someone and you've helped bring it out but then also the benefit that has to the organization that they work for or their families as well. You know I've seen, you know I've advised people that then you know it's made their family really proud of them and you know they've undervalued themselves or put themselves down or trying to live up to what somebody else wants them to be in an organization that might be quite negative. You know where people don't want to see their peers succeed and then I've talked to them so well how would your wife feel about this? How would your kids feel about if you achieve this and you know they've done it for them and and the satisfaction that that gives is is huge yeah, and it's a.

Speaker 1:

It's a great example that with the teaching side, because they're very transferable really in terms of what what you do, what we do and what teachers do, because, like I say, you're guiding people through often you know, not always, but often the early stage of their career, you know when it's, and helping them with it, with a set of skills and often challenging circumstances. And I said it's a really good way of uh of looking at it and it's another reason why, you know, for me people can move into different industries and utilize the skills they've got. They can't be pigeonholed into into just one industry, which I guess, well, teaching in particular is a lot of reason why people leave the teaching industry because of stress but then go on to do great things because of the lessons of learning it yeah, absolutely yeah.

Speaker 2:

Or the other way around. You know I've seen people be good in businesses and then they've they, then they've gone into teaching and you know it takes a certain character and characteristic and I don't think I quite have the patience to be a full, full time education, but you know it's, it's when you see someone that wants to learn and develop. You know it's all very well saying coaching and mentoring, but if that person you're coaching or mentoring just wants to tick a box, they're never going to achieve it.

Speaker 1:

But if you can see they genuinely want to improve and develop, then great, let's put the investment in Somebody mentioned that as well about. You've worked with a number of great leaders and great people. Sometimes there's debate for now in terms of do you stay in a company and progress, you know, is it now still a positive thing to see, you know, 30, 40 years of service for someone, or actually is it better to try to move on to different companies and try new things and work with different managers and different people and different cultures? Given the fact you've had experience with working a lot of people, what are your thoughts on that?

Speaker 2:

I mean that's quite a tricky question because they do say that people never leave a bad job. They leave a bad boss and, believe me, I've worked for some bad bosses and that's made me want to leave an organization, but then the boss has been changed before I've had to do that. Culture is really important. I mean, certainly in manufacturing, traditionally it's been a quite an old fashioned sort of command and control, you know top down hierarchy. But I think that's changed a lot now and a lot of businesses are waking up to that. So I think where people are in a business where they're empowered to do their job, they're given clear expectations, they're given regular feedback, they're given the career opportunities.

Speaker 2:

And you don't always get those opportunities. You know, businesses like Genesco 23 million turnover you know we can't have. We're not like a great big corporation that can have loads of people in a pool ready to take over from someone. Um, so sometimes they are, there aren't those immediate opportunities. So sometimes, yes, for someone to develop, if they're really ambitious, they might have to move company. But I always say to people don't brush those things. You know sometimes people chase the money or they sort of say, oh yeah, but this job is going to be much better. You know, at the end of the day, the grass sometimes is always greener, isn't it? You know it's actually where you are. You're better off, provided you're not in a toxic culture and you're in a culture where you're empowered to do your job. You know what's expected of you, you give them regular feedback, you give them the tools and training to do the job, then if you have a degree of ability and the right attitude, then you will thrive in that environment.

Speaker 2:

And if ultimately, you know you don't get the career aspiration you want, well, as long as you've paid it back and feel that you've been there long enough to have done that company, you know justice and given them every opportunity, then it's a simple conversation. Look, you know I've been here, say, five years. I think I've achieved all that I can achieve. You know I think it's time for me to move on, to try something different, to go for that bigger job.

Speaker 2:

So, yeah, so it's a tricky one. It just it really depends on you know individual circumstances and the company you know you're working for. But I would certainly say if anyone was in an environment where they're not empowered to do their job, they're just told what to do. It's quite a toxic culture that those cultures are very hard to change and will take a long, long time to change. And either an individual might be able to help change that culture but if not, then you know you probably would be looking to leave. But I think that's less and less now. Certainly in manufacturing I see it less and less.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, same, I agree. I know you've had a lot of experience working with lots of different companies and I want to pick your brains on some of this stuff, because I think there's a lot of lessons that can be learned that you've obviously learned along the way, vision being one of them, because I'm quite interested in that vision and that strategy piece In terms of when you're either going into a new business yourself or you're advising the business piece how important would you say having a vision is and how you then reverse engineer that into sort of long-term or perhaps even shorter-term goals. Would you say having a vision is, and how you then reverse engineer that into sort of long term or perhaps even shorter term goals. Would you say so?

Speaker 2:

in answering that question, I'd ask you a question. So imagine there's a guy or a girl sitting in a car. They're just about to go somewhere. You don't know where they're going. They're just about to go somewhere. You don't know where they're going. They're just about to drive. They don't know if where they're going to end up is better than where they are now. They've got no idea how they're going to get there. They're just literally going to drive aimlessly. Would you get into the vehicle with that person? Yeah, it's good analogy. Yeah, yeah, and yet that's what a lot of businesses and organizations do on a daily basis. And sometimes they get lucky because they have very capable people who kind of know what they should be doing. But without that clear, compelling vision, the people within the organization don't really know where they're going or where the business is ultimately going, and that's quite a hard environment for people to work in.

Speaker 2:

The longer term, vision is something and when I say longer term I mean three to five years is something that can really excite people and feel they want to really be part of it, as long as it's genuine and authentic. You know a lot of businesses wordsmith their visions. You know the senior management get together in a room, spend a couple of hours and they go. We've got this great vision and out it goes. It's very, very hard to get right, and how I did it with my team was I asked them all to write an article in five years time that they wanted to see written about Genesco when we'd achieved the financial targets and aspirations of the directors and the owners. And then we boiled that down to some core themes and eventually, over time, we got it down to two or three sentences, because a vision isn't a strapline or a tagline. It is a statement that says in three or five years time, this is what we want to be. And when you then have that, you've really got to communicate it and make sure that people in the business are excited by it. Once you've got that, you can start to get people pulling in the right direction.

Speaker 2:

To answer your question about strategy again, I use another analogy. So if we go back to the driving one so you're not driving aimlessly now you've decided this weekend you're going to. You know the weather's going to be nice, so you're going to drive down to Brighton, for example, for a weekend. So how are you going to get? There is your strategy and that's your sat-nav. And the reason why I say it's a sat-nav is because you've got to determine the route that you're going to go. Are you going to go by car? Are you going to go by train, are you going to go by bus? But then plans change, you know. So you might have decided that you're going to go on the train, but the train's cancelled or there's going to be an engineering work, so now you're going to drive. So your strategy is always evolving. That's why I use that sat-nav analogy, because it's always updating.

Speaker 2:

Some businesses go straight to strategy to tick a box. We've got a strategy, but without that vision, well, okay, we're going to drive. Where are we going? You know well, we're kind of going in that direction. People can't visualize. You know in the long term where it is they're going.

Speaker 2:

And if you have a strategy that's continually changing, sometimes people in your organization think you don't know what you're doing, because it's like well, one minute you've told us to do this, now you've told us to do something completely different.

Speaker 2:

So if I go back to that sat-nav analogy, you know we're still going to Brighton for the weekend, but instead of going by train we're now going by car and, oh, that motorway's shut because there's been an accident. So now we're going to have to take a detour around this. So that is ever evolving. Too many organisations have a strategy and all it is is it goes into a draw. So, you know, we make sure our strategy document and it's basically a narrative that describes how, at this point in time, we think we're going to get to our vision it's always changing because we're adding a bit more meat on the bone or we might hit an obstacle and change. So every every sort of three to six months, we sit down as a team and review it and reissue it. And review it and reissue it, because you've got to stay agile and things are changing, but the vision is still exactly the same yeah, I think I think that's a great exercise.

Speaker 1:

Just out of interest on that, on that particular exercise, were there some answers that surprised you, because I guess I imagine that you know there are a lot of people got involved with this is that? Is that something that you had some left field ones and sort of actually changed the strategy for the better times?

Speaker 2:

well, we had one, one of my senior managers cheated and used ai, but you know, I gave him the credit of using his initiative, and that's another subject.

Speaker 2:

At least he used a modern tool, but actually no, I was really pleased with how they all embraced it and they seemed to really enjoy it, and because we'd done so much work initially before I asked them to do that. So we've gone back because you've got to start with your mission, which effectively is why do you exist as a company? What is your core purpose? What is it that you do? Now, you know Genesco is a privately owned company and obviously we're there to make the family money. You know it's privately owned family business. We're there to make the family money. So why would we avoid stating that? But it's not just purely for that. It's also, you know, to create jobs, to jobs to pay back the community. We do charity work in the local community, etc. So it doesn't just exist for that purpose, but that is one of the reasons why it exists. So we've just stated that and made it very clear. It's all about plastic molding. So let's state that and make a very simple statement about why does this business exist? So we've got that sort of core purpose that helps us make decisions when we're looking at new opportunities. Does this kit fit with our core purpose or not. Then the vision comes in. So we'd already done quite a lot of work before I got to that vision piece. So I think people were already starting to formulate in their own minds where they saw the company going.

Speaker 2:

So the writing, the article, was almost like a bit of fun. To the point, we'd already got quite a long way in the process and it's like right, I'd like you all to think about this. You know, we know, financially, what the aspirations of the owners are. We know why we exist. But when we've achieved it, imagine yourself there in five years time. You're picking up a, a relevant um, you know magazine about our industry, what you want to see written, and the common themes were all we're all there. You know it was, it was. There was a lot of similarities. So I guess the biggest surprise for answer your question was just how, um, how aligned it actually was and that there wasn't any of these left field people completely misinvisited or not mis-invisited. You've got completely different ideas to the rest of us. The common themes were quite uncanny.

Speaker 1:

Which probably means that they did have some form of a strategy without it being documented. I imagine that culture business probably has had that before, but just needed it all to tie together, which is interesting. Yeah, absolutely right. It segues into almost the data and the KPIs piece and I still think this is. I'm seeing more and more of this now with the manufacturing and companies using data, your Power BI, all this type of stuff. Obviously the strategy and vision can be very tangible. It can be data-led or it can be something quite sort of evocative and sort of the on the emotions piece how they would feel in five years time. How important do you think the data now behind running manufacturing businesses, would you say?

Speaker 2:

well, it's one of six leadership traits we identify. So the work that I do for the leadership consultancy Human Alchemy, which is about extraordinary leadership, identified six leadership traits, and the intelligent use of data and having systems and processes are two key traits of those six. So it starts off with being a conscious communicator, having a clear and compelling vision, liberating and enabling your people. The further you go down, that intelligent use of data, you know, has to be there. Sometimes I still feel you have to have an element of gut, feel and what feels right and you know. And if you're using data, you've absolutely got to make sure that data is correct, because I've seen some businesses make decisions on incorrect data and it's thrown them completely off. So, yeah, data absolutely.

Speaker 2:

You can get data overload and there is a danger, certainly sometimes in our business, that people are looking at different pieces of data and coming up with different answers. So you've got to make sure that data is centralized. It's meaningful. You mentioned KPIs. I always say to my team we've got to have KPIs. Visual management it's very important, but they've got to be relevant. And I always say to people what is this KPI telling us? And if it's not meaningful, well, why waste time putting it together and displaying it, because you can't have information overload on dashboards everywhere and people think what the hell is this telling me? You know it's got to be meaningful and then it's got to be applied and used intelligently yeah, you might.

Speaker 1:

Would you mind touch on those six where it says is it a secret recipe or can we? Uh, can we talk about it?

Speaker 2:

no, I touched on them there. So it's being a conscious communicator. So, again, with human alchemy, when we say being a conscious communicator, it's thinking about how you speak, how you act, how you behave and how you think, and being very conscious of those things. Then it's the clear and compelling vision that we've talked about. One of the things, again, as I've said, with vision, that people don't do is they don't communicate it. You know, there's no point working on a vision that you're sort of almost like a bit embarrassed to share. Well, why did you do it then? So one thing that I missed out earlier when me and my team arrived at the vision statement, I went around the table in the vision and said do you absolutely commit to this? And without hesitation, every one of them said yes, and I said well, now I'm happy that we take this forward, we present it externally and then we issue it. Now it's communicated everywhere. Then you go into the liberating and enabling people. I touched on that earlier about making sure that people are empowered to do their job. There's delegated levels of authority. They know what their expectations are. There's regular feedback.

Speaker 2:

You know a lot of businesses and a lot of organizations do annual appraisals. Well, I say you should be doing that on a monthly basis. I've had situations where people have come to me and said you know, I've had enough of Fred, I don't want him in my department anymore. Okay, that's interesting, well, you know. Does Fred know this? No, I've just had enough. Okay, so you know. Have you had any conversations leading up to this about you know you need to improve your performance, etc. No, not really. Well, when did you last do an appraisal? Oh well, I did his annual appraisal, probably about 10 months ago now. Okay, let's have a look at it. Um, doing a great job.

Speaker 1:

Keep up the good work yeah.

Speaker 2:

So what's changed? Um, so yeah, liberating and enable people modeling high performance, team working. Then you go into the systems and procedures and then it's the values intelligent use of data. So those are the, the six leadership traits that human alchemy have identified as being key.

Speaker 1:

Which I think one point. There I'm hearing accountability and all that, the need to make sure there's some form of accountability, and I imagine that's something that is prevalent with your management style, I'm guessing.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely. I mean again, there's another piece of work we do that is sometimes called being on the hook. I prefer to call it shared accountability, because being on the hook sometimes conjures up the wrong image of people. But that accountability is absolutely key. But as part of that it's the rewarding people when they do the right thing. And when we talk about accountability, that doesn't mean to say someone's going to get fired for a wrong decision.

Speaker 2:

You know, when you're having a regular one-to-one with someone, they've got their objectives. How are they performing against the objectives? Oh, actually, you're falling short in this particular area. Why is that? Well, I could do with a bit more help from you on this, because I'm not quite sure what I'm doing. Okay, so do you need some training, mentoring, what resources have you got? Then, the next time you have that one-to-one brilliant, you know you've nailed that bit now, or actually you're still struggling. Well, I've given you everything you wanted. What's missing? Oh well, I could still do with a bit more help. Okay, let's give you a bit more help.

Speaker 2:

But once you've had that same conversation, say three times, and you've done everything you can to provide that help and support, well, then you're into that different conversations. And then it's look, we're going to have to talk about performance improvement et cetera, but it's always geared towards bringing the most out of individuals. You know I've heard this said loads of times and I totally believe it no one goes to work intentionally to do a bad job. Sometimes people just they're not clear on what's expected, that they've not been trained or given the support and the resources to do the job. If you're not having these conversations, you know it's not going to end well. So, provided you're having that regular feedback and you know those regular one-to-ones, people don't mind being held accountable, because you know the flip side of that is you've held me accountable and I've done a good job and I'm going to be thanked and rewarded for doing that.

Speaker 1:

I think sometimes some people battle with that. I have myself in the past. We've given too much effort to the people perhaps who are struggling and less help the people who are actually doing well, because I just kind of think, just leave them, get it, get out of the way. But actually that's not always the right way to manage it is that? Is that a tricky one?

Speaker 2:

well. So when I when I do the work for human alchemy. So just to explain, human alchemy is a leadership consultancy owned by lincoln college and I used to use them a lot when I managed a business in Lincoln. So when I left they asked me to be a mentor consultant. So what I am? I'm there to show how a lot of what they're talking about is actually applied in business, because I've done it and implemented it. And sometimes the person I'm coaching with is an out and out coach without that level of the manufacturing experience or the experience of actually implementing, but they know all the theory, really good at the theory, really good at coaching.

Speaker 2:

And it's one area sometimes where we have a slightly different opinion, because you know, someone who is an out-and-out coach will literally want to help and believe everyone can be helped. I take that view that I think you're alluding to there that you can spend too much time giving those people all the attention and if they're not engaged and enrolled in the business and actually they're doing the opposite and they're almost like a hooligan or a saboteur. I think we sort of call them. For me, when you're running a business and a commercial business, you have to get to the point where you make a decision whether that person is going to stay with the organization or not. Yeah, but yes, you've still got to give them every chance. But there has to be a line that you draw where you say, right, we've done everything we can. Now with this person it's really not working out and and, to be honest with you, mark, I've never, ever, seen a situation where someone has left an organization that I've been responsible for under those circumstances, that hasn't then gone on and got another job in another organization where they're just a better fit.

Speaker 2:

Because, just, you know, I talked about that agility and things changing. You know, we all know that a lot of people don't like change, but for organizations to be successful, you've got to change. It's one of those things I say to all of my people. It's the only thing I can guarantee is change, and sometimes people are uncomfortable with that and they can deal with a certain amount of change, but then there may be a change that's made and they just think you know what this really isn't for me. Now I don't fit here anymore. I think there is a danger that you can spend too much time, put too much focus on these people. I think a very early conversation that just says look, if this isn't working out, let's. Let's do something and let's move on.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and what I'm hearing there is that expectation setting you know in terms of you know if. I think if if people know where they're at and they know where you're at with that person they're not blindsided by a you're at with that person, they're not blindsided by a you're not performing, you're out the business, that's unfair absolutely.

Speaker 2:

It should never be a surprise yeah yeah, you know, those conversations should never be a surprise because you've had so many conversations leading up to that, which is the point I was trying to make earlier. You know, when a manager comes to me and says, well, I've had enough of, I've had enough of fred, and said, well, does fred know this? You know, no, it'll be the first time. They've heard it. In their last performance appraisal, said they were doing well. Well, this is going to come as a real shock to them. It shouldn't be, because they should have had all the conversations leading up to that, including a performance improvement plan, which, again, isn't an excuse to exit someone from the business.

Speaker 2:

I've spent a lot of money and invested a lot of time with people who have got to the point where their performance needs to improve and I've bought in external help to support them with that. And it is always with the view to this person is going to get where I need them to be. And if we go through that process and, very early on, think that's not going to happen, then we have the conversation straight away. And, as I, as I said to you earlier, everyone and I don't want this to come across like you know, I'm one of these a hire and fire sort of guy? Not at all.

Speaker 2:

But in the length of time I've been in business I've seen, you know, quite a few, had quite a few difficult conversations with people, but it's always worked out. Sometimes it's the sheer relief that you've taken all that pressure off them. And then you know they go and work somewhere else and they do really well. And I've kept in touch with it, with some people who've left under those circumstances, and they've turned around to me and said do you know, paul, that was the best thing, that was the best thing you could have done for me to have that conversation. And you know I'm now working here and doing really well. I learned a lot from the process we went through um. So you know, done, done the right way, there's always a positive outcome yeah, yeah, I completely agree.

Speaker 1:

You mentioned about innovation and change and I think manufacturing is changing a lot at the moment and there's a lot of technology coming in. You know there's a lot of companies looking at automation, ai, and a lot of companies needing to pivot, to be agile, all sorts, but it's also can be quite an archaic type of industry, with the people who work there for a long, long time and done things a certain way for a long time and aren't necessarily open to that change. Have you come across that before in business, and what would you say are good tips to sort of try to get people on the journey?

Speaker 2:

I don't think there are any tips and absolutely I've seen that and I could give you examples of that within my current business. It's quite an old, traditional manufacturing process we have and in some cases quite a black art where there isn't even some data to support things. It comes back to this whole part of having the journey and having the mission, vision, values. You know the core values are key. You can use examples where someone's positively displayed that behavior or they haven't, and you can actually point out that what you've just done there has actually breached one of our core values. It comes down to always having the right conversations and if you've got the right framework and people are empowered, then there's every opportunity they're going to succeed. But if over time they're not, then it comes back to what we were just discussing about the discussions about what you expect from them. And the danger is, is some of those people, especially if they're in quite influential positions you know, managers within the business they can influence other people. So there's no when I say no tips, there's no real magic wand. It comes back.

Speaker 2:

You know, changing cultures in business takes time. It's relentless. I say to all of Human Alchemy's clients that I come in touch with as a mentor, consultant. This stuff is hard work. If it was easy, every business would just be flying, would have no issues. It's relentless. But once you've committed to going down that route of clearly having you clear, you know your clear and compelling vision, um, you, you've developed your strategy off there. You're constantly evaluating it. You're constantly you know you've got this empowerment structure with your people. You're constantly having those one-to-ones. It will generally correct some of these because they'll actually say do you know what? Actually I want to be part of this or no, I don't want to be part of this and maybe it's time for me to move on. Um, so, no, no real tips other than it all. It's all encompassed by everything that we've said before are you seeing?

Speaker 1:

are you seeing things change quite a lot in terms of leadership? Because I've seen a lot of change in leadership styles over the last 10 years and I think, oh, easily. And why do you think that is? Do you think it's because you know, post-COVID people are demanding more of the job? Or what are your reasons? Because I think it's changing for the better.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, absolutely. I mean COVID has changed a lot of things. I mean COVID certainly then opens up the debate about sort of hybrid working, working from home, and that's another, completely different debate. And command and control style of leadership was not working anymore. And you know, you can even look to some sporting managers, you know look at what is it? Clive Woodward with the England rugby team. You know, when they turned a corner and won the Rugby World Cup, it was all about playing to their strengths, yeah, you know. And and and empowering them to have a say in how they were going to play. And as controversial as gareth southgate was, I I think he did the same. You know, he, he, he got the connection back with the fans who effectively are the customer. You know he got the players playing for each other, a real lot of teamwork. So those are examples of more modern leadership and I think we were starting to see examples of it in other areas.

Speaker 2:

And businesses started to, I think, sort of wake up to this. And you know I had a learning curve when, so you know, I kind of fell into that general management, managing director, sales was always my background background, so engineering degree then went into sales. All of my career was sales, loved it. And then had an opportunity to take over at James Dawson and Fenner and I thought, wow, I've never done this before. And okay, yeah, there was a degree of coaching and, you know, went away to Cranfield and did some courses, but I was still of the impression right now I've got to be, you know, now I've got to be really tough and tell people how to do things. And we had a situation where we'd had a quality escape, a major customer, and it really sort of damaged our reputation. And you know, wow, you know I was, I was fuming, this had happened and literally was going to fire someone, you know right, everyone in the room, and it was going to be literally like an episode of the Apprentice.

Speaker 2:

You know, you tell me why you did this and you have people dropping themselves in it and right, you're fired.

Speaker 2:

And just before I went into that meeting, I happened to have a conversation with one of the founders of Human Alchemy, a lady called Dawn Barron, and I told her what had happened. She said, paul, you need to just stop a minute and have a think. What is that approach going to do? And I realized it was going to create an environment of a witch hunt and everyone pointing fingers and there wouldn't be any learning whatsoever. It would just be a case of me going right, if anyone mucks up like this, again you're going to be for the chop. So what's that going to do? No one is ever going to admit any mistakes and we all make them and we're all still learning, and everyone's going to hunker down and everyone's going to be self-protective. Everyone's going to go into silos Worst thing ever.

Speaker 2:

And I realized what I was about to do. So I then went into that meeting and started off by saying by the way, I'm just going to make it very clear no one's jobs on the line here. We've just got to learn from this. Let's just talk through the process and what happened and honestly mark a number of things it highlighted that were wrong and people were willing to explain. You know well, well, did you realize that this happens and that?

Speaker 2:

Well, no, I didn't. And that was really the turning point for me to realize that, that you know that style of leadership, that the route I was going to go down versus the route I did go down, um, you know, we're very different, um, and again, as I said, that's one of the things that human alchemy we really try and coach and bring out. And you see, I think you see less and less of it now. But I think, to go back to your initial question, it was starting, I was starting to see that before covid, but but I think you're right within, think you're right within the last 10 years, only within the last 10 years.

Speaker 1:

I love that story because what we like about that story is and when you talked about it I was imagining it you've actually created a safe environment, an environment which probably could have been a one driven by pure fear of I've got to say the right thing here, otherwise I'm going to'm losing my job versus a safe environment where you know it links into everything you've said. It links into that expectation piece. You set the expectations right there and then that no one's gonna lose the job, but the expectations still were. That needs to be some resolution from this.

Speaker 1:

But it's a safe environment to to say what, what you want to say, and I think that just encompasses everything you talked about beautifully today, and I think there's still a lot of people out there that because it's very hard to manage, I think, without emotion sometimes, because you feel you're either scared or you're angry or you're sad, and it's very difficult not to lead without emotion. I find and I think that does definitely come from experience um, and sometimes I'm just like, say, taking a breath and just thinking about how you're going to come into that meeting, which is a, but you definitely see less and less of it. But I think that's a great way to sort of describe that. How do you think your leadership style has changed over the years? What do you say? If there's two things you think you've changed from when you first started out to now, what would you say? They'd be yeah.

Speaker 2:

Well, that example is probably one of them, because when I started out, without the experience you know, I thought I had to have all the answers and couldn't show any kind of weakness, whereas actually displaying a vulnerability as a leader is very powerful and it being OK not to know, and I realize that everyone in the business just assumed you did know everything, and they're really surprised about someone who's saying, actually, do you know what you know? No, I don't know. You know, I want you to tell me. And I've got a situation like that now within the current business where once we launch the vision, we split it into three clear sections all about people, products and processes and we got cross-functional teams to look at those areas of the business. And I realised quite early on in the process that they saw it as being a test that the senior management team had all the answers and we were trying to find out if they could work them out themselves. And it took a long time for them to realise that we were genuinely asking them to come up with the ideas and suggestions that were going to get us to where we wanted to be.

Speaker 2:

Um, the the other lesson I think was and and how I've changed? Is you touched on it there about the, the safe environment, psychological safety, um I call it um and creating that environment where people are afraid to say what they want to say without the fear of repercussions, and from that comes trust. So some of the lessons I've learned, you know one you've got to have good people around you. So very early on in my career, I was too slow to make some changes that I needed to make in the organization that I should have made earlier. That was about me having good people around me and then really having to work on that trust. And again, it's been a challenge. In the 18 months I've been at Genesco, I suddenly noticed there was areas where maybe we didn't have that psychological safety, that there wasn't that trust, and so I had to do a lot of work with that um, and you can never sit back and just rest on your laurels. As I said, this is, this is. You know, it's relentless. So you know again.

Speaker 2:

Something else I've learned is I'm always learning, yeah, you know, and I thrive on that learning, and there's always someone out there that will know something that I don't, and there's some. Someone will have a better way of doing things or someone will be doing things differently, and that's why I think it's really important to keep that external perspective. Leadership can be really lonely, you know, when you're the top of the organization, sometimes you've got ideas and things that you want to float past someone, and the danger of doing that internally is people can misinterpret that sometimes to you've already made a decision and that's what you're going to do, so you've got to have that external network and that's why I do a lot of networking with other businesses. I love going and seeing other factories.

Speaker 2:

A couple of weeks ago, on National Manufacturing Day, make UK and a few other organizations got together and there was 50 of us on a bus going around three other manufacturers in the Northwest to open their doors and it was a brilliant. Oh look, that's how they do that and oh, wow, their visual management's really good. That's an interesting KPI. We should look at it and it and it's that sharing best practice and it's all good for the British economy that we all help each other. Yeah, so I've probably given you more than two or three that you asked for there.

Speaker 2:

There was a whole, there was a whole load of stuff there but those are just some things that really stood out.

Speaker 1:

But it shows how you know how reflective you've been on your own career and your management, and that that is another lesson. Isn't it that you've got to reflect on what you've done well and what you've done wrong, to be able to improve and not just think the way I do things is the best way to do things so very quickly. I'm always interested in this. Who's the best manager you've ever had? What do you say and why?

Speaker 2:

um, so, so the? So there's a. So there's a gentleman I've quoted several times and it it's a gentleman called Bob Crompton that used to work for Lucas Aerospace, where I started my career, and I didn't work directly for him, but my boss at the time worked for him and I just remember that my desk used to be very near his office and he was a really approachable, a really nice guy and he would just he would come out and chat to us and I'd been doing a bit of work where I had to have confidence in my own ability, where I'd spotted something that I thought was wrong and I had to spend a lot of time. I actually came in on a Saturday morning to do a lot of data analysis, to to get to the bottom what I thought was wrong, and, as a result, that kind of attracted his attention. We were having a conversation and he was asking me about what my career aspirations were. Well, I was, you know, I was a young, 24 year old engineer at the time and he turned around and he said, paul, he said, the only person who will limit your ability, who will limit your capability, is you. And I thought, wow, that really really stuck with me and the guy I used to work for that worked for him as well. He gave me a great bit of feedback.

Speaker 2:

He used to I used to go into his office and say, jerry got a bit of an issue and I've had to think about it and I think we could do this or we could do that, but I prefer to do this. And he goes yep, just go ahead and do it. And he said to me in one of my feedback sessions. He said I love it when you come to talk to me, so, because you don't bring me a problem, you bring me the solutions.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, you know, and all too many people, you know people chuck the problem, obviously. Well, you'll have to sort that out, you'll. And I I've always admired people that are prepared to come and say look, I'm not sure about this, we've got this issue, but I've had a think and I think we should do that. Yeah, brilliant, go ahead and do it. And there's a lot of the time, there's never any right or wrong answer. It's just, you know, being able to justify why you've come to that conclusion and then learn from the consequences, either good or bad and that, and that links imperfectly to that continuous improvement culture, doesn't it?

Speaker 1:

you know if you can have that again safe environment where people can not just come with problems but have the bravery to go, this is a problem, but how about this? And then not be scorned, for if it doesn't work out, it's on them. Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 2:

that's a absolutely you're all in it together and you know, and as long as you're well, we know why we made that decision, because that was the data, that was what everything was telling us at the time. It didn't work out why. Well, actually, something's come to light subsequently where, if we'd have known that, yeah, maybe we need to just check this or maybe next time we ought to do that, we we've got it. Now we're doing a new project at work now and we've realized that we, you know, we we overlooked something that we've said with hindsight, you know, going forward, if we didn't, we, we need to do this at this stage. You know, yeah, okay, we've learned something.

Speaker 2:

I used to work for a great guy, um, who was parachuted into a business I worked in to to help sort of turn it around because it was struggling and, um, you know, he, he always used to, you know, ask these sort of questions and someone coming around. So he always used to say, oh, we've learned something today, we've got smarter today, you know, and the focus on that constantly learning from mistakes was really good. And then, and again, you know the accountability he used to use. I think there's a golf expression where he said you know, you can have a mulligan. You know you can have one bad shot that you go. Okay, that was a bad shot, he said, but I don't want to see you make the same mistake again. Yeah, so no, no, that's fair. That's fair. I've learned my lesson. I know what I've done. I know what I need to do differently next time.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so there's a whole number of people to go back to your question, whole number of people. I've worked for some great bosses. I could probably count on one hand the bad ones. There haven't been many of them. I've. I've really benefited for working for some great people and it goes back to your very initial question that I I I would love to have you know I finally retire people out there in their careers. I used to work for this great guy called Paul Edwards. You know he used to really care about me. He used to take time to help and develop me and to grow me as a person, and that benefited the organisation I worked for.

Speaker 1:

Now I've no doubt you will leave that legacy without a shadow of a doubt. And just finally, Paul, in terms of the next 12 months for Genesco, what's the plans? Much on the horizon.

Speaker 2:

Well, again, we're continuing that journey of having the vision and the strategy. Strategy is very, very early. We're adding more meat on the bone. We're looking at new product strategies. We're looking at how we differentiate from our competitors. Part of that is looking at some new technology. I'm very fortunate the directors are keen to invest in the business. They just want to make sure it's the right investment Because we now have a very coherent story.

Speaker 2:

A lot of businesses when I go back to the driving, the car analogy sort of say oh, this new technology has come out, maybe we ought to adapt that, or maybe we need to chase this customer in this market, but they're all isolated, non-connected bits of activity that don't really hang together. I feel now, with with me and my team and talking to the directors and owners of the business, we've got there's a lot more coherence around what we want to do. So we're doing a lot, lot more customer market research. That's then linked to the vision, linked to our mission putting a bit more meat on the bones with strategies. And okay, we need a new product strategy here because we're losing ground a bit to our competitors. We need to differentiate, certainly a lot around that sustainability Mark. I talked about plastics. The plastics industry has a bad reputation, but we can use biopolymers, we can use more recycled material in our products. It might be more expensive to go down that route but you know, let's take that position in the market and, okay, some people will buy cheaper that don't have that sustainability aspect, but some people will pay for that. So let's target that and that be part of our model. So lots of exciting things in the pipeline Now.

Speaker 2:

I've got a great team around me, which is one of the key things that I've always said with any business, any leader who starts out in the position either with a new company or gets promoted, start with that team and make sure you've got that team of people around you. Build trust, build that psychological safety, be prepared to. You know, let your team tell you if they think you're doing something wrong and be prepared to put that handbrake on or, you know, change your mind on things, take a different view. Um, and I've got I've got a great team around me at ginesco and, as I said, are supporting the supportive board of directors that are willing to invest. We now need to give them the right things to invest in.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, great, love that and I want to thank you, paul, for this. It's been tremendous. It's been exactly how I hoped and thought it would be. I mean, interestingly, when we first spoke was when I was looking to start a podcast and I think at the time my vision for the podcast was going to be you know, it's manufacturing leaders. It was all going to be around, specifically, management within manufacturing and the hope we can help by getting people like yourself on improve how people manage.

Speaker 1:

I'm really proud now, after two and a bit years, that I've had many very different types of episodes on this and and you know, value in different ways. But this one's really brought me back to what the core was with manufacturing leaders and all the stuff we spoke about in terms of that expectation piece, the accountability piece, setting visions, setting expectations. It's actually one. I've kind of forgotten that. I was asking questions and listening to your answers and thinking about my team and my so-and-so, and that's exactly what I hope and I'm sure everyone else will have done, whether they've been walking or driving or what, when they're listening, because ultimately it ties into everyone trying to progress. People listening to a podcast on management wants to bet themselves and bet the team. So this episode will have definitely done that and given people real, tangible tips. So thank you, paul, it's been tremendous, we appreciate it.

Speaker 2:

It's been a pleasure, and I should add that you know when I talked about when I learn and my learning experience. I have watched quite a number of your podcasts. I can't claim to have watched all of them and I've taken little nuggets and little snippets from a lot of them, so thank you for providing them.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, no, thank you.