Manufacturing Leaders

Empowering Leadership Decisions With Financial Insight

• Mark Bracknall • Season 9 • Episode 2

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Discover the journey of Sam Briggs, Head of HR at Aarsleff Ground Engineering Ltd, as she shares insights on leadership, innovation, and the transformative power of HR. Learn the art of crafting a vision that inspires and empowers teams, along with the significance of nurturing talent to future-proof businesses. Sam's evolving career path, from accountancy to leadership roles in retail, offers a compelling narrative on the unexpected yet rewarding transition into human resources.

Unpack the strategic shift in HR from traditional administrative roles to data-driven, business-aligned strategies. Our conversation with Sam sheds light on the value of diverse backgrounds in shaping a successful HR career, and how commercial awareness from retail and finance can elevate HR's role within organizations. We also explore how leveraging data bridges the gap between HR and senior leadership, turning HR into an indispensable business partner.

Navigate the modern challenges of a multi-generational workforce, where mentoring and timely feedback are key to bridging generational gaps. Sam shares her insights on modernizing HR practices to attract and retain talent, emphasizing the importance of a transparent and authentic company culture. With a focus on sustainability, fresh talent integration, and the potential of apprenticeships, this episode offers valuable perspectives on steering HR towards a future-ready strategy that resonates with today's workforce.

Please subscribe to the channel for more content! Theo James are a Manufacturing & Engineering Recruiter based in the North East, helping Manufacturing and Engineering firms grow across the UK. Please call us on 0191 5111 298

Speaker 1:

zoom. So I'd never I've done it once yet. The red, the red lights there. That's good for me. I'm recording. How are you? You're right, how are?

Speaker 2:

things. I'm all right, thank you. How are you?

Speaker 1:

yes, I'm good, thanks, yeah, really good. It's, uh, yeah, busy, busy week, one of those weeks where feels like it should be a lot later than wednesday morning.

Speaker 2:

So yes, yes, I know that feeling. It seems to be like that every week yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1:

It's particularly dark today as well, isn't it? It's just come in Weird. Yeah, whereabouts are you based? Again, then Remind me.

Speaker 2:

So North Nottinghamshire.

Speaker 1:

Yes, nice In the.

Speaker 2:

Midlands.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, nice.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, where I live is just on the edge of South Yorkshire.

Speaker 1:

All right, okay, yeah, yeah, our head office is in Newark. Yeah, oh yes. So I've lived in North East now for 22 years, but I am actually from Sheffield originally. So so I'm South Yorkshire born and bred, but I left when I was I was kind of on the outskirts. I grew up in a place called Bradway. I was actually born in Dromfield, which is technically classed as Derbyshire. We moved to Bradbury when I was one and then I moved out of Sheffield when I was 17. But I still get back for the odd footy match and whatever and stuff and see the family. But yes, it's a nice, decent part of the world have you always been around there, have you?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, yeah always been around there, went to Lincoln at uni. I'm actually back at Lincoln because I've started a doctorate oh yeah, I've certainly seen that.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that was my. I had to decide between Sunderland and Lincoln and I went at university at the time and I went to Sunderland because at the time I did a media degree. Like every business person does, I did a media degree because I didn't know what I wanted to do and I went to Sunderland because it was a slight bit reputation for media. But I loved Lincoln it was so close because I loved the open air. It was such a nice place around the university. I saw the lake and stuff around there. It was lovely really nice.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's completely different now. It's expanded so much.

Speaker 1:

Aha, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:

I first went there in 2002.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:

And there were three buildings.

Speaker 1:

Really.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so I went back this weekend and it's just huge now.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it had a nice feel to it, I remember. To be fair, it was a nice place and Lincoln itself was lovely as well. Actually, it's nice to have placed that, so yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:

But, yes, what was it meant to be? It was meant to be adopted Northeast. So there we go. So, uh, yes, um, so that the stuff I sent through to you. Obviously I sent it through as a bit of a guide. We'll just have a. What I tend to do now, I tend to record the introduction after you've gone, so I tend to summarize what's happened anyway, so I just go in. So, yeah, we'll just have a chat through and see what comes up. There's anything else on there that you want me to sort of bring up?

Speaker 2:

segue you into anything at all um, no, I think everything on the list is. You know what we can talk about? Um, obviously, the progressive hr stuff, some of the generation stuff.

Speaker 1:

This is my project and I doctorate now nice, so I've probably got a little bit more to say on that yeah, I'm really interested in that, actually, because I think that's that's very topical as well. So uh, so yeah I'm uh, I'll be going, is it? Is anything I forget, just just bring up and we can talk about, because I think I think when it's fluid isn't it.

Speaker 1:

It is yeah, it's not a q and a. I mean, I have done those there and I'll sort of look down every now and again just to remind me, to sort of bring you into it. But it's um, this is much better, the conversational and fluid. And before I forget, how do you pronounce where you work? It's arslef arslef, right, okay, yes, it's a part of a danish group right, nice. It doesn't quite transfer to uk language very well, does it? Arslef ground engineering, engineering. Yeah right, perfect, arsliff Ground Engineering.

Speaker 2:

Engineering yeah.

Speaker 1:

Right, perfect. I'll probably get that wrong when I start now. We'll have a go, so I'll just start when you're ready, Sam, if that's okay with you yeah, okay. Excellent. So a warm, warm welcome today to Sam Briggs on the podcast, who is Head of HR at Arsliff Ground Engineering. Have I said that right?

Speaker 2:

You have, yes.

Speaker 1:

Perfect, thank you very much. So how are you, sam All?

Speaker 2:

good, I'm very well. Thank you, mark. I'm very happy to be here today. Been looking forward to it.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, me too, so I'm looking forward to it. We'll get straight into it, if that's okay with you. So first question is the same question I ask everyone that comes on what does it mean to you to be a leader?

Speaker 2:

Okay. There's a quote where they say manager says go, a leader says let's go.

Speaker 1:

So for me yeah it's a classic quote.

Speaker 2:

I'm sure a lot of people have heard of it, but it sums it up nicely because for me, it's about creating that vision and bringing the team along with you and being part of that team. You know, not just dictating. This is what we're doing, but people need to understand why we do what we do. Um, it's about empowering people, it's about team building, it's about mentoring, it's about understanding your people, being a leader, um, and knowing you know where their skills are, what motivates them, what they're interested in, leveraging their skills, um, but also looking at you know what are the development, development opportunities for them.

Speaker 2:

I've had managers over the years who, you know, have taken a bit of pride in the fact that when they're on holiday, things fall to pieces. That's not leadership. You know you should empower your people and you know your people should be as skilled to do whatever the task is, as good when you're not there, yeah, as well. So you know we're bringing people along, but certainly, um, you know, presenting that kind of compelling vision of where we want to get to and so that people buy into that. And then you know, know, people want to give their all.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

I think, that's the difference. I love that example actually, because you're absolutely right People get into management for different reasons and people enjoy being managers for different reasons, and I think typically the people I would say on average who come in here are people like you, who are in it because they understand exactly what you said there the importance of being together as one, and you might lead by example, but you still do it together as a team, and I think that's what's important. But it's a really good example of that, because there is people out there that take pride in things falling to pieces when they're not there, but it's absolutely the wrong way to manage, because someone told me that you try to make yourself redundant wherever you go, almost try to make your role redundant to hopefully then step up, because essentially, you need to create opportunities for people under you. But if you know, if you're not doing that, you know it's uh, it's not, it's not a badge of honor to do exactly what you said there.

Speaker 1:

You need to to make sure you build that autonomy so people can step into your shoes and and if you're not here for two weeks, the business can still tick away and run without you in it absolutely.

Speaker 2:

But then future proof in the business as well. You know, thinking about that talent pipeline, thinking about empowering people so that people feel enabled, yes, um, and people then want to be part of that journey. So you know people are more likely to stay with the business. You've got less flight risks, you know so it's all all part of that journey. So you know people are more likely to stay with the business. You've got less flight risks, you know so it's all all part of that.

Speaker 1:

You know people think all the hr piece, the people management piece, it's a nice to have, but it's absolutely fundamental it's all about people 100 and I'm looking forward in this episode to really digging into that, because I know you've got some some fantastic stuff to talk about with that. Very briefly, I want to sort of go back to so people understand sort of your background, if that's okay. Obviously you know you've had an extraordinary career in HR and you know the qualifications behind as well, which we'll talk to. But take us right back briefly in terms of when you first started out, because obviously you've had an interesting career to get where you are today as well, haven't you?

Speaker 2:

Yes, I have have. Yeah, because I never started out in HR and HR wasn't something that was on my radar. Um, my first degree is actually in accountancy. Um, so that, yeah, went to Lincoln, did a bachelor's in accountancy and my leadership journey started at the same time. So, um, I lived at home, commuted to uni uh, come from a working class family, you know for me at the time I couldn't afford to live away. So I lived at home, worked 20 to 30 hours a week in a local supermarket and paid my own way. When I was 18, I got promoted to team leader in the customer cafe and I did that, that part-time while I was at uni studying for my accountancy degree.

Speaker 2:

So I always thought I'd leave uni and go into finance, um, but because I suppose I just kind of forged, started forging that leadership career, um, kind of made a name for myself, I think, because I've always had a strong work ethic, um, you know, and a bit of grit and I like to get things done, it kind of got me noticed, yeah. So actually, my store manager at the time said to me well, have you considered the graduate scheme? Um, another time I thought, well, oh, I'll give it a go in the back of my mind. I was always thinking, oh, I'll keep looking out for any finance opportunities. So I did the graduate scheme um, completed that, did, did well at that, and then ended up in store management in retail. Absolutely loved it, loved operations, loved being in the thick of things, went back to uni part-time and did an MBA. That was a hard slog because, as I say, many years ago, long hours in retail and I did it self-funded. It, did it all in my own time. Yeah, loved it.

Speaker 2:

But then I think I'd always been interested in like the people side of things. I'd always been the manager who kind of dealt with the people, er issues and recruiting and you know everything kind of people related. So an opportunity came up to move across in the same organization into HR. I took it. I thought you know, chance to learn something new because of my people management experience. You know I've been doing it since 18. I was able to move in at HR manager level and kind of you know that people management experience really helped me out. Um, decidedided, I loved HR then, just because you know it's about people People do the do. So I'm really passionate about investing in people and empowering people Decided HR was kind of where I found my niche.

Speaker 2:

So I went back to uni, did a master's in HR and then left retail and it's kind of opened the door then to other industries because every industry has HR. So you know, that was a great opportunity. So after that, moved into manufacturing, moved into supply chain logistics, so a lot of what you call your gritty environments you know your heavy blue collar environments, um, and yeah, it's, it's just been great ever since I moved to a where like a wholesale business. I had a fantastic manager there, um, who said to me I had loads of ideas, always had bags of ideas, and my manager there said to me you pilot it. If it goes well, it's, it's your baby, if it doesn't go well, it's on your head and that's all I really needed to hear. Just an opportunity to try new things. Um, and I've just really thrived since then, um, so yeah, really found my niche in hr I think, um, what's interesting?

Speaker 1:

I I think people from a retail and hospitality background in. I think they're two of the best industries in terms of to give people resilience and work rates and such a rounded skill set, because you're dealing with, obviously, the public on a day-to-day basis and I imagine no two days are the same. Loads and loads of successful people I've met have come from that background. I don't think it's a coincidence.

Speaker 2:

No, definitely not. It certainly does build your resilience. It's very demanding. You have to work hard. If you don't work hard you kind of don't succeed in those environments. But also my background has given I'd say it's given me an edge in HR. So you know the finance degree that I've got, my MBA, that ops management experience I've got a real commercial awareness that I've found that I've been able to take into HR. Yes, you know I've worked in a lot of places and I'm passionate about changing the perception of HR. A lot of businesses see HR as very transactional, very administrative, and obviously there are elements of HR that still are. But actually it's about knowing the business, knowing you know what makes money. How do we make money as a business? What are the key drivers? How do we leverage people to help the business succeed? Having that commercial awareness, having that background, that's certainly helped me as well did you find that?

Speaker 1:

because manufacturing, you know, typically can be quite an archaic industry, you know it isn't as modernized as some? Did you find that a frustration or perhaps a challenge, going into those industries and seeing that firsthand and I imagine you know, even now I guess it is still behind the times with some industries.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it is. It is and certainly moved into roles, and sometimes I felt, you know I'm a progressive thinker, but sometimes I feel like I'm just bringing it up to date you know I'm not even taking it as far as I could.

Speaker 2:

I've always seen it as an opportunity but I've always been very driven and I am absolutely an optimist. You know, to me the glass isn't half full. The glass is full because no matter how much liquid in it you've got in it, the rest is full of air. That's kind of the way I think of things. So yeah, it's been a challenge kind of getting people on board, especially, you know, senior leaders in some of the businesses that might have been there a long time.

Speaker 2:

They have seen HR as just being in a back office function you know just doing the paperwork absolutely so, and I think this is what's helped me as well is being able to understand the commerciality, understand the figures and actually use the figures to give HR credibility. You know. So HR are not just sat in the room saying we've got a problem, you know, with retention or recruitment etc. Actually going in there and saying that you know, this year we've lost X amount of people. This is our turnover right, this is our cost per hire for one replacement employee. Factoring everything from recruitment time, interviewing time, managerial time, uniform costs. What is that lost output productivity cost to the business? If it takes somebody six months to get up to full speed going in with the financials, then people pay attention to that yeah, they might they might not pay attention to what they think is the pink and fluffy stuff.

Speaker 2:

Yes, although you, there's a commercial element to that as well. You know, high engagement is not just a nice to have. Highly engaged employees are more productive. There's been studies into it McLeod and Clark 18%.

Speaker 1:

There's a commercial angle to everything and I think, going into a meeting, being able to articulate myself confidently, have the data, have the the figures, people then start to listen yeah, a hundred percent agree and I think you're absolutely bang on there, because sometimes there can be divide between owner, ceo, operations and hr that it's an other versus them and and it's the hr can deal with it mentality. You know there's got to HR, but actually what you're talking about there I think is excellent because you've obviously used your background in finance and understanding data analytics, coupled with your passion to work with people and help people, that progression piece. So it's led to where you are perfectly. But actually I think there's some great advice there that people can get that you know you can lead with data Because typically operations, people in manufacturing enjoy data.

Speaker 1:

They run machines off data, they run everything. It's a downtime and cost analysis and all this type of stuff. So to lean into that, I think, is perfect. I mean, what would you say, out of interest, if you went into a new role now which is a new? You know typical, you know manufacturing and engineering type business? What would be the three pieces of data or information that you would want to seek and understand to be able to showcase that to, let's say, an owner or the operations leadership team? Would you say?

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So I think firstly, it's about understanding the business before I get into the specific data that I'd be looking, absolutely understanding the business, and I think what you said then is absolutely key. I've got to be able to go in and speak to them in their language and that's how I build that relationship with them. So I need to understand what the business does, actually go and spend time on the shop floor, and this is what I've done wherever I've worked. I've been and spent time speaking to the people, finding out what goes on, how they feel about things.

Speaker 2:

Stats, obviously the typical things that we look at, but they really do paint a picture of a business. Engagement, whether you do your engagement surveys and for me, engagement is only one part of that. A lot of businesses, a lot of HR professionals, they like zoning on what is our engagement score, and that's usually your response to I am happy at work, but to me it's about more than engagement. It's also about enablement. So an enablement question on a survey might be having the skills, the resources, the equipment to do my job well, and if you've got a mismatch between those two scores, you've got a potential problem brewing because you can have people coming into work. I'm happy at work. I'm happy at work. But if they're coming in day after day after day and they've not got the tools, the resources, the right equipment, the right you know information, it's going to chip away at them and eventually you'll end up with this huge dip. So, certainly engagement, but definitely looking at enablement, because that's one factor that gets missed. Your things like your absenteeism, your turnover, you know people, they vote with their feet. Yeah, they might not always be open to how they're feeling, but you know, if you've got a high turnover problem, absolutely we look at that.

Speaker 2:

A lot of managers will say we've got a recruitment issue, whereas I'll be like, okay, well, actually it's a retention issue, because if we kept the people, if we kept those skills in the business, we wouldn't need to recruit. Yes, so retention is absolutely more critical than ever. Um, so that's that's a focus area as well. And so whether we think, actually do we need to just do more, we do engagement surveys, but kind of, what angle are we going at with that? And spoke about enablement. But you know, why do people choose to stay with us, why do people choose to stay with the business? Um, and then it's about benchmarking, because you know why do people choose to stay with us, why do people choose to stay with the business? And then it's about benchmarking, because you know people vote with their feet. They're going to look at what's out there.

Speaker 2:

Cost of living, crisis, things like salary and benefits are more important than ever. So actually, are we competitive as an employer versus other people? So I'd be looking at benchmarking as well. Um, not just salary, but other benefits. Um, you know, and benefits are going to be different, um, depending on what generation you are and what kind of your life priorities are. Yeah, so actually is there an opportunity to offer more flexible benefits that people can opt into depending on what life stage they're at? So, um, yeah, appreciate, there's a lot no, it's a lot for him.

Speaker 2:

Right, you're there I completely.

Speaker 1:

I agree with all of it and actually what I really agree with and people think I shouldn't because I'm a recruitment firm but it's the, it's the retention piece.

Speaker 1:

You're absolutely right, the people always talking about struggles with the recruitment, but if you really dig into it it's because they've got x amount of people leaving and, like you say, the, the percentage of. Unfortunately, you know, the last five years the percentage of growth for many companies hasn't been that big. It's actually been replacing people that have have left. But I see companies making the same mistakes time after time and time. Actually they make the same mistakes because they don't understand the first place what mistakes they're making, because they're not, they're not doing, they're not same mistakes because they don't understand in the first place what mistakes they're making, because they're not doing exit interviews, they're not doing pre-exit interviews, they're not understanding where they're going wrong and how can you fix something if you don't know where the mistake is? So I completely agree. I couldn't agree more with that. I think a lot of companies we run HR around tables sometimes and sometimes they struggle with on engagement surveys actually getting people to do them.

Speaker 1:

I would say yeah, is that a common issue? You've come up, you've come against it is.

Speaker 2:

But I think a lot of that is because employees think what's the point?

Speaker 2:

because nothing ever comes of it yes so I think where people miss the trick is that they do an engagement survey and it might be once a year and then they might put an action plan together and then it'll get shelved and it'll be.

Speaker 2:

It'll be pulled out a year later and there might be some last minute attempt to say oh, you said we did, but because it's not living and breathing throughout the year, it doesn't mean anything to people, so that's why you don't get the buy-in.

Speaker 2:

I think that a better way, rather than an annual survey, is to have a pulse approach, so that you're doing it little and often throughout the year and you might want to carve it up into themes you know what's relevant right now to people right now and have a theme of the month maybe, but do it little and often so that people can see that it's continually happening, but absolutely following through that. People can see that it's continually happening, but absolutely following through. So whatever the responses are from that survey, whatever the insights are, communicating them out and actually committing to action so that people understand what's happening and keeping it living and breathing. That helps because people then feel that actually my opinion does count for something, they are taking it seriously, they're not just playing lip service to it yeah, one said because exactly that if you open the box up to suggestions and you do nothing with them, you know it's.

Speaker 1:

You're in a worse position when you start from on you, yeah, yeah and it's almost like what's the point.

Speaker 2:

And yeah, I know why businesses will do it because they go out and say we care about our staff, because we do an annual annual engagement survey. They do it so that they can say they're doing it. They're actually, for you know what's the real purpose of doing it.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, they're ticking the box, aren't they? I completely agree. Another issue that manufacturing in particular has, particularly post-COVID, is the succession planning piece. I think there's a lot of people who are left or due to leave the next five, ten years and there's not enough people coming through, which is a real issue and it's a it's a real challenge. Obviously, it's a real challenge for for that HR piece, but there's always things you can do. Is that something that you've you've seen and you're concerned about what you said? That generation?

Speaker 2:

yeah, yeah, definitely. The generation gap is absolutely huge, and this is this is a topic that I'm really passionate about, so much so that I've actually um started a doctorate, um, where this is my project, um, I'm really I'm really passionate about education in general and certainly within the hr space, so I do public speaking events, um, and the generation gap in the workplace and and making sure that we're future fit is a real passion project of mine, and you know there's a huge gap in expectations. You know they say we've got five to six generations in the workplace at the minute. People are staying on longer. Younger people are coming in Vastly different life experience. You know, and and I'm kind of I don't like accepting that we do something because we've always done it that way I'm always looking at actually how can we improve things, and I think they all help attracting new blood into organizations and helping develop that new blood in organizations as well. Um, so I've certainly found in businesses that we've got a lot of. I don't think you'll see this as much in the future. I think the job for life isn't a thing. I don't think it's a thing anymore. I don't think the younger generations think like that, but the older generations do so. There's people in my business now with 30 plus years service coming up to that retirement age. You know the knowledge that they've got. It's about how do we kind of share that knowledge. So I think, you know, mentoring is a useful tool that we can use and it can go both ways. In an organization it can be, you know, the more experienced generations mentoring the younger ones and sharing that knowledge, but also there's value in the younger generations coming in, who were the digital natives they're more tech literate, actually sharing and supporting the older generations as well. So I think mentoring can go both ways and that helps bridge the gap somewhat.

Speaker 2:

Um, but, but just how we do things, or traditionally do things in Asia I mean the annual engagement survey is one example. You know, I definitely believe we should be more little and often with things. Another example, an initiative that I've launched, is micro appraisals rather than the annual appraisal, which was designed and developed in the 1950s, a time where people saved all year to go and do something, which it doesn't happen now. People have got short retention spans and we're living in an instantaneous world. Yet we expect people to wait all year for an annual appraisal and then we set objectives in an annual appraisal that are going to be obsolete within two months because business is so fast paced. It doesn't make sense to me. Yet we still do it.

Speaker 2:

So, um, one thing that I've launched is a micro appraisal is where we do it little, and often we leverage tech to do it. So it's a simple form that can be used via a qr code on a phone out and about, on the go, and actually it's more about the conversation than the documentation and it's about normalizing those regular contact points between managers and employees, and this is what certainly the younger generation coming into the world of work they expect. Yeah, you know, they've grown up among social media, you know kind of that constant information, so you know they like feedback and they like regular, frequent feedback.

Speaker 2:

Yes, they like just-in-time feedback. The older generations no news is good news. It's a very, very different mindset. So we want to attract the new blood into the business. We need to make it an environment that they want to come and join.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, I like that. Yeah, yeah, I love that because you're absolutely right and it's interesting. We said that because you know we'll touch on the, the appraisals, because I completely agree. But actually, when you're talking about, like you know, say, the five generations, you're right, you've got apprentices, 16, 17 year old apprentices, and you've got people retiring now at, you know, post 65. But you've actually now got a time manufacturing where companies are bringing in automation, they're bringing in ai and actually exactly that. You might well find that a 65 year old can help an apprentice on x, y and z because they've done it for the 30, 40 years. But you're going to find a 16 17 year old is probably going to adapt to that process a lot quicker and you can see them in canteens that show them on the phone going. Yeah, this is what you do. So I think that's a really. It's a really healthy mix. That, because it's not one way. You're merging all different styles together, aren't you?

Speaker 2:

absolutely, and I think that is that is the modern way and that is the future way. Um, the older generations, you know, grew up in a world where children should be seen and not heard. They're more deferential to authority. These taller hierarchical structures in businesses suited them. The modern world. The younger generation not so much. They grow up in a world where we've got social media, everyone's got a voice, everyone's got an opinion and everyone's encouraged to share that. So these, you know, taller structures don't work anymore. We think about how we use org charts and most businesses do you know they'll say well, go into a business, show me your organization structure and people produce org charts and it basically just shows who reports into who. It doesn't show the relationships between different teams. It doesn't show kind of the heat map of who communicates with who. Um, so I just think there's real opportunity. Look at carving up everything really and thinking actually how can we bring it up to date?

Speaker 1:

yeah, how can we?

Speaker 1:

which actually really links in with that. Every time we've run um surveys to why people stay, leave and all that type of stuff. Salary is always number one, you know, and always will be. Um, then now it's it's flexibility, because people, you know, want some flexibility. But after that you've got progression, um, and if you dig, and we've sort of dug deep in that, it's actually sort of documented progression. You know very, very that transparency because exactly that, that generation is different now where they need to know. I want to know because I might not be here in five years' time.

Speaker 1:

What can I get have?

Speaker 2:

you found that as well. I have absolutely found that, and we see that more when we're recruiting. You know we've done some recent graduate recruitment and they're asking about development, they're asking about professional accreditation. What's that journey look like? And they want to see it mapped out. You know what does the next couple of years look like? And, yeah, I do think that you know the job for life is gone and people are more, you know, thinking about their own developments and um, so, yeah, seen a lot of that and it's so important to have, like, the development plans for people so that they feel that they're invested in and they feel that they can grow and you know, their growth is ultimately the business's growth as well.

Speaker 2:

Um, one thing I don't like is I don't like sheep dip training, you know, just putting people through the same kind of training for the sake of it. Yeah, one thing that um I've been using successfully is psychometric testing using insights, discovery. Yeah, there's a few that you can use myers-briggs um disc, for instance. It's all based on the same methodology of carl jung. So I first came across insights many years ago in a business as a delegate um on on a training course, and, and it's for self-reflection for self-awareness is absolutely fantastic.

Speaker 2:

Um. I was able to better communicate and work with you know people who were a different character type to me, and that's all the value in that. So I then became accredited and I've started rolling it out um where I work now. So people join in, they get to do it, they get a personal report and it can really help their self-awareness and we can use it as a business because we it means that any um development we put in place for them can be more specific and targeted to that yeah, I like that absolutely because because you're understanding, because actually sometimes to understand yourself can help, can't it where you're?

Speaker 1:

trying to is that, you know, is that costly for a business? So how does that work? Because I think right now people are put off by anything which could be an added cost which isn't budgeted for it is.

Speaker 2:

There is a cost to it. So I mean, I became accredited practitioner of insights many years ago and there was a one-off cost to go through that training course.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

I then have to kind of pay an annual license and then any, and we really do see the strategic value in it. And we've not just used it for development, we've also used it as part of our recruitment process as well. So you know, we acknowledge that we need a blend of styles within a team and a blend of approaches, and the more diverse we are, the better we're going to be as a business. So we've actually used it to steer some of our hiring decisions as well. When we've brought people into a team, we've got team profiles. So we think, oh, actually we've got this kind of gap in a team. We'll have a look at when we recruit. Not only has someone got the skills and experience that we need, but actually what's their profile? Can they offer something to the team that the teams miss it? So we've used it in that way as well.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and actually what we've talked about as well. What's one of the biggest challenges and the biggest cost is replacing people.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, do you know?

Speaker 1:

what I mean. Even if two or three of your hires you know work out, or actually two or three people you would have hired, you don't hire because you've, you've, you've realizing that recruiting process, they're not right for your business culturally, then you've probably saved yourself x amount when you're there as well, haven't you?

Speaker 2:

so it's yeah, definitely with the recruitment piece. But you know, if people feel actually the business is really investing in me, this is forging my development plan. It's a slightly more personal development plan than just going through a sheep dip approach. You know they're going to feel kind of more invested in the business as well. They're more likely to to stay with the business so that flight risk is reduced. Yeah, and then you're obviously replacement, replacement cost as well would you say.

Speaker 1:

This is another thing that you can link in with the data piece, because I guess you know a lot. A lot of it is persuading whoever has the budget to say, look, we need to this be part of it is it another thing for you as well, will you say yeah, definitely definitely yeah um, so absolutely knowing knowing the stats I mean before I joined my current business they didn't hr team didn't do a lot of kind of the data review I'm really passionate about it.

Speaker 2:

I want to take it further. For me, it's not just about reporting on what our current stats are, but actually what are the trends and how can we use that data to predict what's going to happen next and how can we then put initiatives in place to you know impact that I'm very passionate about training and it links into what you're talking about.

Speaker 1:

But I think again, particularly the new generation want to be trained and want to be progressive. Again, not all companies right now can maybe afford to put everyone through. You know university degrees, stuff. Do you think the ways that companies internally can look at some form of of either free you know, friendship led or budget or internal training can help? What do you say?

Speaker 2:

I would. I'd say so. Um, I appreciate. You know not all businesses might have got that kind of internal capacity to do training. Um. I've previously designed management development programs to be delivered in-house. Um, on the back of a lot, a lot of time, people are promoted because they're good taskmasters and then we expect them to manage people and they don't have the skill set to do it and I've always worked in these very fast-paced businesses so I understand getting people off the shop floor, you know, is tricky. So I designed a full suite of 90 minute training sessions on kind of people management projects and I've been able to roll those out internally wherever I've gone, um, because it's my material. I've kind of wherever I've moved, I've rebranded, rolled it out and that's worked well.

Speaker 2:

Apprenticeships definitely, um I I think there's real value in that um. You know the cost of university education these days is crazy. So actually, um, you know we've we've had some real success stories from our apprenticeships um as well. One thing we have started piloting at Arslaff is a degree apprentice. So we've got somebody who's joined the business. We're actually funding them through a part-time degree over five years um, and you know they're going to see that investment in them. They're going to get a degree out of it and hopefully that will will be able to retain them longer term because they can see that the business is invested yeah, I love that.

Speaker 1:

It's time, isn't it? I think it's time now to really start looking at that, that long-term plan for companies, because, you know, I think we had to make very quick decisions over things like covid and all that type of stuff and we had to shelve some decisions. But now I think it's time to look for the future, because if you, if you haven't got a five, five, ten year plan, then you know it's going to be here before you know it and nothing's going to change, is it?

Speaker 2:

definitely and you know. Again, on that cost piece you said, you know a lot of businesses are saying oh, what's the cost impact of a lot of these initiatives? Well, my question would be well, what's the cost of not doing it? Absolutely, you know, yes, there's a cost of doing it. However, the cost of us not doing this is people leave. We know that.

Speaker 1:

The recruitment, you know that the talent pool isn't necessarily out there, it's a real struggle to recruit people yeah, yeah, we don't have people in the business to do the do what happens to the business and what I'm hearing, I think, if I was a hr professional, listen to this, and I think the important thing probably is to everything stems from the data, isn't it? Everything stems from from understanding, actually where you currently are, the current position in terms of that retention piece, how much money you spend on this and so, and so I think if you have that, you're fueled, aren't you? With that data, you know to tell the story, to tell a story.

Speaker 2:

I guess to, yeah, absolutely tell the story and and be able to have impact and be able to influence. That's how hr gains credibility knowing the business, building the relationships with the stakeholders. You know, I, I, some people ask me what's my job, and I'll sometimes say my job is, uh, speaking to people, finding out what their issues are and then solving it from a people perspective. You know, people are real off. What's hr's job? Or it's recruitment, it's appetite? You know it's all these and these. My view is it's about speaking to people, knowing the business, speaking to the stakeholders. So this is why this relationship piece is so important. You know, I find out, okay. So what's the issue over here? Is it that we've not got the skilled resource to do a particular task? Okay then.

Speaker 2:

So we now put a strategy together. Is it a buy-in, is it a build or is it a borrow? You know, are we buying in or recruiting that resource? So we we building. Is it a development initiative? Yeah, or is it a temporary labour piece? Yeah. So you know, finding out, actually, what are the issues from a people perspective. And there's always a people's perspective, because people do the do, yeah. So this is why, for me, hr is just interwoven into the whole business.

Speaker 1:

It's not just that department at the end of the corridor that does contracts and sacks people yeah, it's uh funny that I've just I've just put a linkedin post there about what hr on table. We're doing it and I use the term hr professionals are often the unsung heroes of businesses. Because I really believe that and what I think's been nice and important. I would say I think people understand that now. I think now you're seeing more terms like head of people and that's. I think you understand that it isn't this transactional policy legal piece. It's actually, you know, someone who is at the heartbeat of every business. You know, often tying it together. It's such a such important role, isn't it?

Speaker 2:

yeah, definitely. I mean I'm really passionate about it because I I see the value that that can add. But one thing is it's never dull. You know there's always something different happening. You know you mentioned employment law policy there obviously we've got the employment rights bill. You know coming out the new labour government and you know their, their reforms keeping on top of all of that and you know, preparing the business for that when that comes in, because it's going to be some different ways of working and people and part of the pleasure of it, part of the interest, is people are unpredictable. So for me there's so much variety in HR.

Speaker 1:

Why do you think you're so passionate about changing the traditional styles? A lot of people just go well, this is what it is. I'll work within it.

Speaker 2:

You're obviously you're challenging that. Yeah, I am, I am. I just I've always kind of been interested in being a critical thinker, I suppose, and just challenging norms and thinking, well, why do we do this? You know, why are we doing? We're a modern business with the pace of change the pace of technology, technological change, societal change yet we do an annual performance review, why, you know, I always think, well, why do we do what we do? I just question a lot and it's not about change for the sake of change. It's always about what's best for the business. Yeah, it's always about I'm very practical as a person. I think it's because I've got that ops background. So you know, I'm certainly not ivory tower. I'm always thinking about how can we adapt? It's got to be practical, it's got to work for the business. And because I've been in ops, I understand that perspective. But it's a completely different world, you know, like looking at the hierarchical structures and just the mindset, the modern mindset's so different.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that, obviously, a lot of time we talk about challenges, but I think it's nice to be, you know, optimistic to you a lot of time as well. What do you see as the opportunities in manufacturing and engineering over the next sort of five, ten years that you know you're looking forward to tackling?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think there's a big focus on sustainability. Certainly, from a people perspective, it's about being future-proof, future-fit, so a lot of the initiatives that I'm driving are things that are going to, I suppose, attract and help retain new people coming into the business, because that's what we need to do. Um, we need fresh ideas, we need different ideas and and that is a challenge, because I know we mentioned earlier on about a lot of, certainly a lot, of the leaders and you find this with a generation gap a lot of the senior leaders are of the older generation and they might be kind of stuck in their perspective and they might have the view that well, this has worked for the past 30 years. Why do we need to change?

Speaker 2:

yeah but that that's not a sustainable mindset, that's not a sustainable approach. You know you've got to prepare the business to for that continuity. Um, so I think sustainability agenda is absolutely huge. Um, but yeah, just apprenticeships, bringing new people in development, trying to retain skills. It's, it's all about business continuity yeah, yeah, completely agree, amazing stuff.

Speaker 1:

And just finally, for the next sort of you know, 12 to 18 months for for arsla and ground engineering what, what's on the horizon? Much, uh much happening there, would you say yeah.

Speaker 2:

So I mean there's a a lot of conferences looking at. It's hard to innovate in ground engineering just because it's the structural part of a construction that you don't see and you know it's got to be covered by insurances. You can't go off doing wildly inventive things, yeah, that are untested, that are not going to get insurance coverage. So certainly from that perspective it's it's difficult to innovate. We try and innovate um, but it's about attracting, attracting new people to the, to the business. So I mean there's a conference in bruges next year deep foundations institute conference. That um we're looking at attending and what we'd like to do is be getting a couple of new graduates into the business and maybe sponsoring them to attend um and showing them that you know we're willing to invest, invest in them for the future um so yeah big focus on that yeah, because they say if you can't innovate the product, you can innovate the people, and that innovates the culture, doesn't it yeah?

Speaker 1:

absolutely, and that's essentially what you're doing Absolutely, and look, I just want to thank you for this, sam, because I've really, really enjoyed it as well. And you know, I spend most of my week speaking to HR managers and they talk to me about their challenges, and that could be people challenges, that could be, you know, sort of migrating upwards and the sort of challenges come from that, and I think what you've demonstrated here is that and there's the, you know, there's some tangible things here. I know for a fact that, with people listening going, yeah, we need to improve on this. Or, you know, because those little things that you've mentioned know the, the appraisals piece, the, the k, all that type of stuff, that that's things that people can implement in the next month across the business and now and have a monumental effect which cost nothing to realistically yeah, I mean so?

Speaker 1:

yeah I think that that's why I love episodes like this, where people can go away with inspiration. Because you're you're an inspiring person. I think what you do is excellent and you know the the additional qualifications and time you put into to bettering yourself, but also bettering the people around you. You know that that radiates so. So thank you very much. I've it's been great Really appreciate it.

Speaker 2:

No, thank you for your time. It's been a pleasure.

Speaker 1:

That was perfect. I'll press stop record or whatever I do. No, it was great. I won't press stop record or anything like that, but I'll get Kate to do that after. Did you enjoy that?

Speaker 2:

I did. Yes, it was really good, really good.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, no, I enjoyed it. One of those again where I sort of forget I'm on a podcast and just just talk and I think I've got.

Speaker 2:

I've got a question here, so yeah, but no, it flows, it flows really well yeah, it does.

Speaker 1:

I find this stuff really fascinating. I've done a few episodes where I've been winging it when they've talked about like green energy and stuff which I have some knowledge of and what have you.

Speaker 1:

But I've kind of it's been difficult where yeah I really enjoy, ones about the people and and do you like the new generation coming through and what can change? Cause I'm I agree with everything you say about everything there in terms of that, that whole mindset about just understanding why we do things and where's the value here. And if I'm sat here for an hour in a meeting, what, what could this be? 25 minutes, you know what would the same impact. All that type of stuff, it's a of stuff, it's uh, so no, I think it's, it's bang on. So thank you very much and I would definitely um, I would use this for your own into recruitment, because I think people will listen to this and go uh, I can actually work for a company which actually cares, and that's the feedback we've had.

Speaker 1:

I probably shouldn't tell companies to do that because it'll put us out of job, but I just think use this for your own, your own recruitment piece, because it, because it's an uncorporate, open the bonnet of how you think and ultimately, the business thinks so.

Speaker 2:

I would do that. It's interesting because that's what the newer generations want to see.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely. Yeah, they do, yeah, they do. They want to see that they don't want to nowadays. I'm trying to. I won't stop this. Yeah, I'm recording. I completely agree because