Manufacturing Leaders

John Doyle: Lessons In Sustainable Leadership And Innovation In Agriculture

• Mark Bracknall • Season 9 • Episode 5

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Unlock the secrets of leadership and legacy with our guest, John Doyle, an experienced Operations Manager in the agricultural industry. In our conversation, John reveals the transformative power of selfless leadership and the art of fostering a culture of reflection and collaboration. Whether you're aiming to create positive change or build a legacy, John's journey offers indispensable insights into mastering the balance between confidence and humility on the leadership ladder.

Explore the often-misunderstood terrain of career progression as we challenge preconceived notions about younger generations and long-term career commitments. John shares his personal anecdotes about nurturing talent and promoting from within, illuminating the profound impact of internal progression on both job satisfaction and efficiency. We navigate the complex landscape of employee retention, offering concrete strategies to forge clear advancement paths and cultivate loyalty in a rapidly evolving job market.

Delve into the intricacies of establishing effective KPIs for workplace culture and the critical role of adaptability in management. John sheds light on the challenges of translating culture into tangible metrics and provides a roadmap for setting meaningful performance indicators that motivate and drive accountability. Our discussion also touches on the power of collaborative leadership in overcoming industry-specific challenges, from economic pressures to shifting consumer trends, underscoring the importance of strategic planning and innovation. Join us to discover how proactive leadership and effective collaboration can propel both individuals and organizations toward collective success.

Please subscribe to the channel for more content! Theo James are a Manufacturing & Engineering Recruiter based in the North East, helping Manufacturing and Engineering firms grow across the UK. Please call us on 0191 5111 298

Speaker 1:

Hello and welcome to an episode of the Manufactured Leaders Podcast with me Mark Bracknell, managing Director of Theo James Recruitment. Today we welcomed on John Doyle, an Operations Manager in the agricultural industry. Today's episode reminded me that leadership doesn't have to be lonely, because it is a job that can be if you don't prepare properly. It was all about using the people around you, setting KPIs setting the right KPIs for your business and your shared goal and actually leaving a legacy, and how important that is to John. We talked about all things leadership. We talk about how to accelerate through the management. John is someone who has accelerated his career at an exponential rate and gave some really good tips and advice how to do that and how to lean into imposter syndrome, lean into your strengths and weaknesses, and it's one of those episodes where you're going to take a lot of tangible tips away, how to become a much better leader. And obviously we talk about all things manufacturing.

Speaker 1:

So really enjoyed this episode. I learned a lot. Thank you very much, john. So please do me a favor grab a coffee, watch, listen, whatever you want to do, please, please, please, just click that, like and subscribe and even comment. It means the world to me. It really helps grow the channel. So thank you very much. Enjoy, right, a massive warm welcome today to John Doyle, a operations professional in the agricultural industry. So, john, welcome to Manufacturing Leaders. How are we doing?

Speaker 2:

Thanks for having me, Matt.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, looking forward to it. So first question is the same question I ask everyone who comes on what does it mean to you to be a leader?

Speaker 2:

To be a leader to me, so it's really cheesy, but I always think of just a good leader. Or a leader is just someone who changes something, so changes the way a process or a culture exists and then leaves it for the better, whether that's eight hours after the shift or eight years down the line, being able to walk away or sense, check somewhere, a place that you still work and go. Have I left that better? Has it improved? What's the culture like? Have the people? Have they improved their lives? Have I improved the metrics?

Speaker 2:

And how good a leader you are, I guess depends on how big that effect is. So if you can walk away from a business and seven years later, let's say, go back and it's still standing from some of the processes and the implementations you put in place, then that's a great leader, and that's a great leader and that's the kind of leader I would like to be one day. And if you're a supervisor that just makes their shifts better and makes their week better, then that's fine too. It just depends where you want to fall on that line, I guess.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I like that. I guess, on a very deep level, you're talking about legacy, aren't you Really? However, you sort of class it as Is that legacy piece, then, then, is that important for you in all aspects of life? What do you say? Or?

Speaker 2:

do you just see that in business? Because no, I think so absolutely. You know if you can keep in to get, not to get too deep too quickly, but you're even with my children. You know you want to be able to look back and say, century, check whether it's a year, two years, three years, and sort of say what kind of a difference have I made over this period of time. And your ability to look back and say you made a difference.

Speaker 2:

Not only does it it fill you with a sense of work, but it makes you stronger leader going forward, because actually you gain confidence from all the other celebrations of successes and quick wins and doing this right and doing that right and achievements at every level. It gives you that confidence to push yourself forward. And without that, if you sense, check yourself six months into an appointment, let's say, and you think actually, do you know what Things haven't really changed here? The best I've done is sort of firefighted for a couple of months and we've got past some problems, but we haven't changed anything or improved anything and haven't had an impact on this culture, these people's lives. Are you going to go into your next appointment or into the next six months of the same appointment with an amount of confidence that you need to do that job properly yeah, yeah, and that's probably where management is has changed over time.

Speaker 1:

Now that people go go into leadership now for different reasons, I guess it's more selfless to some extent. I mean, you could argue, absolutely, you're still getting the buzz, if you like, um, from helping other people and that's that's your buzz, but I think you no longer see many people go into leadership to lead for an ego-type thing. You know what I mean. I think that has changed over time.

Speaker 2:

I think, I think, yeah, and I think, even if you're like myself I'm driven for my own wants and needs as much as the people around me, but without any successes or without anything tangible to be able to take into an interview, or you're looking for your next step up, or if you're looking for your next role, you're not going to get anything tangible without the people in and around you. If you don't bring up the people in and around you, the chances of you having success individually it's not going to happen. Without making the site successful or the business successful or the department successful, your CV is not going to improve any because you won't have anything to show for it.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, exactly I'd like to go back to, because you've done a great deal in the short space of time you know. You've progressed very well at a young age and I think that's an important lesson there. Take us right back to where and and why you started into, I guess, the manufacturing industry as a whole okay.

Speaker 2:

So I probably I just fell into the industry. It's the honest answer. Um, in my early 20s and I've had a strange sort of career really, because I sat in the same sort of role, a similar sort of role, for 10 years, from 20 to sort of 30, 31. And it was comfortable. I look back on it now and think probably I got too comfortable. But at the time you know, it was all those sort of those housekeeping things we look for when we apply for a job in the first place. It's close to my home, the shifts work for my family, I get to spend time with my children. There's enough autonomy, but not too much. There's enough structure there. But yeah, there's enough autonomy, but not too much, there's enough structure there. But yeah, the 10 years in amongst the same business really, and then just one day, just a switch, just sort of said this is, this is not enough for me, this is, it's not. It's got stale almost.

Speaker 2:

And actually the business I was working at the time was a fairly progressive, fairly well-known business.

Speaker 2:

But part of the problem was is similar to, I guess, um, a football player, a sports person that has to move teams just to make an impact, because actually the business might be okay and you might be a very good leader and I consider myself to be but that relationship's just grown a little bit stale. So I made the decision sort of 30, 31, 19 years ago now, to move on, take another challenge a little bit of a different industry, but nonetheless manufacturing, and yet just pay dividends so sort of every two or three years. From that point I've managed to progress into more senior roles. Because it becomes addictive, is the honest answer. You know, you have a little bit of taste of success and you look back on your, your achievements, all the things that you've managed to accomplish with the help of others, and actually it just becomes addictive and you want more and more and more of it. Um, and so it kind of snowballed to the point where I am now. You know I'm 39 years old.

Speaker 1:

I'm still looking for my next success, my next big achievement yeah, why do you think some people do get stale doing a job like that versus other people who couldn't, I guess, think of anything worse than doing anything different to what they're doing? Is that a makeup of someone or your experience?

Speaker 2:

I think so. I think it's a little bit of both. I think it really depends where you are in your personal life as well. So you've got work-life balance. I think of my work-life balance. Back then it was very much tainted towards my home life. My work-life balance back then it was very much tainted towards my home life. I know that wasn't a bad thing at the time. But, um, does it? Does it fulfill you? Does it make you go home and feel like you've achieved something? Probably not, yeah, and I think it depends on you surround yourself with as well.

Speaker 2:

Probably at that time when I've made the, the um, the decision to change companies and to change out that mindsets for want of a better word I was surrounded by some good people who had a similar mindset and actually they're kind of. I've got a couple of friends and a couple of colleagues in and out of that time that made changes, both internal and external, and you kind of go. You know what I want peace of that. That's what I want my life.

Speaker 2:

To look back, you know I don't want to be sat in five years, as much as I'm comfortable, it's. It's sort akin to that the lobster boiling in a pot, not to over-dramatise it. But you can get so comfortable that actually you look back in five years and you think I've crossed that line of comfort and gone into stagnation. But surrounding yourself with good people and sort of you know almost that competitive edge of wanting to keep up with the people around you if you surround yourself with the right people, that's kind of what pushed me forward what do you think the pros and cons are in terms of either staying where you are and progressing, because I guess you get some people particularly back in the day with job for life and you progress and progress.

Speaker 1:

You get probably more people now that move for progression. I would say that's probably a much bigger percentage. You obviously move for that progression. What, what do you think the pros and cons are of both, would you say?

Speaker 2:

The biggest con and it's not a romantic one, but it's all that local knowledge. Every time you leave a business, even if it's a similar business within the similar industry, those day-to-day stuff, the systems in the background, the apps for your HR systems, all these little boring things that make the day-to-day losing, that just sets you back. It's an amount of knowledge that you lose and if you can't take it with you and sometimes you might get lucky and a good percentage of it is transferable, but more often than not, in my experience actually, you lose a lot of that and it just slows your role, it just slows your momentum, because there's an amount of time that it takes to just pick up all that local knowledge. And that's time that if you stay within the same company for 10, 15 years and the progression is there, you you haven't got that drag, you haven't got that weight pulling you back. You can just concentrate on the interesting things or the things that add value, whereas, like, say, changing and again, even people building relationships.

Speaker 2:

Again, there's a certain weight to that. If you've known people 10 years, you know how they work, what they're good at, how their strengths offset your weaknesses and vice versa. There's a certain element of momentum to that, and if you change businesses you've got to find that again and you've got to find it quickly. And it takes a lot of energy as well. It's tiring. It can be quite intense to go into another business and throw yourself out for the first six months to get past all that little bits of local knowledge that you need absolutely. But is that why you're there? Is that what you came to do? Not? Probably not.

Speaker 1:

So that's the, that's the main pro of staying with the same business, I would say yeah, because it's interesting, because, yeah, I hear a lot of people now who go well, new generation don't like to stay anywhere more than two, three years. They want to move on and so on and so forth, and you don't get the job for life mindsets anymore. I don't actually think that's the case. Personally, I think that people want more now and people want more out of their career and they want to work for a business which helps them progress, but they're less likely to stay if those opportunities aren't on the table.

Speaker 1:

So I personally think it's more of a case of companies just aren't set up right for that progression piece and lose people because of that.

Speaker 2:

That's my thoughts anyway no, and I would agree with that.

Speaker 2:

I've worked at businesses that are, you know for want of a better word complacent and actually they got you there. And I can think of numerous examples in my earlier years where people have definitely been passed over because they're so good at their role, because of that square peg for a square hole that actually has held them back. And I say complacency and I talk about comfort. But the other side of comfort, the really positive side of comfort from an employer's point of view, is knowledge and you're an asset If you've been there 10 years. Even by osmosis, you normally pick up enough to be really added value and I've seen that hold people back and that's the dangerous side of it. But I've also worked at companies Luckily the one I'm working at now there is room for progression and succession planning is second to none. Actually you can see that route and I don't think necessarily it is a case that you know jumping companies is the right answer. You just got to be able to see that succession route. It's as simple as that. You've got to be able to see there's a plan. You've got to do that gap analysis in amongst all the firefighting, the day-to-day and the short and over control. You've got to make time and go. Actually, this is where I want to be in two years. What am I doing day-to-day to work on that gap? What knowledge do I need to go into my next role or to add more value to this business? And is the business helping me do that? And the best businesses right now are learning that lesson and they're learning the lesson that the cost involved with that 10, 20 years ago was almost enough to put people off, in my opinion. So you know massive businesses, not just the small and independent ones where they would go right. Well, we can get you to this level, but it's going to cost us time. It's going to take you off the shop floor. You're going to have to train and it would offset those costs versus bringing someone in who was ready made and nine times out of 10, go with the experience who was ready made and nine times out of 10 go with the the experience.

Speaker 2:

I think more and more people are seeing the value of internal training now, internal progression and offsetting that against. You know, we might have to pay. If we're bringing in a ceo with 125 grand a year, we're going to pay 10 15 of that to find him. Have we got someone underneath him that we can bring up? Yeah, and that's the decision I would tend to make nine times out of 10.

Speaker 2:

Every role that I've left for the last seven years has been succeeded by my successor.

Speaker 2:

So my direct report has taken over my role and I consider that one of my greatest successes, because that's how it should be.

Speaker 2:

And that's not to say that we've lost anything from bringing an external candidate in, because actually the way I look at it more and more these days is, yes, an external candidate may have a skill set and a knowledge that an internal candidate has not had, but actually it's easy to go and get that. So we think about bringing in external candidates and then getting in the local knowledge, and that's fairly doable. You can put someone on a 12-week training programme, let's say, and all of a sudden they're up to speed. But what we don't look at often enough, in my opinion, is, let's say, we've got um, an operator on the shift and she's not, she's not had any managerial experience. Let's just go and get her and then she might have all that local knowledge. Probably sometimes it's easier to sorry, it's easier to find that external knowledge and train someone internal than it is the other way around, and that's the big switch that I see over the last five or 10 years.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I completely agree. And this is it. There is a gap which is widening in manufacturing. That succession plan just is a real failure. It's been coming this for years and years. So now's the time to concentrate on your attention. Now's the time to concentrate on your attention. Now's the time to concentrate on your training, because I think you've hit the nail on the head. You've got to have continuous training internally. So, for when key people leave, that person below them is just ready to step up and then step up and step up. And that's why apprentices and all this type of stuff has just been neglected, hasn't it? And companies then will say we're paying X amount of fees on recruitments and training. Well, of course you are, because you're paying it right at the top end when you know if you had an organic process, that wouldn't need to happen. Simple as that.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, absolutely, and I think it's the weight behind it as well. So I think about the amount of times at previous businesses we would talk about you know your four or five main KPIs, and it'd always be the same sort of KPIs that would pop up in and around health and safety and around yield and preventative maintenance. But actually, in terms of staff retention, how often do you talk about that? Probably HR have conversations and you'll have a conversation once a quarter, but it should be one of the most weightiest kpis you've got. We should be talking day to day, week to week. What's our staff retention? Um, not just staff retention, but of the staff that we've retained, how many are fit for purpose and actually, in terms of one-to-ones, and where these staff members have projected they want to be, how many of them are obtaining that and how many miles off it, years off it, and what we're doing to shorten that gap.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I completely agree. Most, Most operations or HR will know exactly what their recruitment fees are, their training fees are, but how many can go and know exactly what my retention rate is versus what it was last year? That's so much more important because that's where your money is saved.

Speaker 1:

Yeah absolutely Completely agree. It bleeds into culture, I guess, doesn't it? In terms of the importance of culture in a business and I know you and I have spoken before about the sort of importance of the KPI piece, which massively differs business to business Is that something that you've always looked and thought that it's important to implement, I guess, when you go into a new business, perhaps in a new senior sort of management role, yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2:

So the reason I'm in, I stay and plan to stay in the agriculture industry for the well, the entire. One of the reasons I love this industry is you get a lot more autonomy than you would in certain industries and a little bit more accountability, absolutely, but certainly more autonomy. And if things are working you can sort of come away from people and compartmentalize departments and sort of say that you know I'm here to support and compartmentalize departments and sort of say that you know I'm here to support absolutely, but that is your baby. And you only do that if people know what the structure is. You only know you're going to do that if they've got smart targets and they know what's expected day to day. And that's kind of where the KPIs for me are beneficial.

Speaker 2:

In terms of the culture, you can walk around, you know you could probably do a day, let's say, at most companies, all different companies all across the uk, and if you spend a day there as a, you know, you know like you're doing a day in the factory like greg wallace, let's say you know the culture. By the end of it you get an idea of the culture, whether it's whatever metric, health and safety, performance, culture, uh, staff morale, all these things that we look for day to day 24 hours in a company, you what the culture is. But actually making that tangible and putting that to a figure is the difficult part. And making sure that every operative, from shop floor to the senior manager, knows what is expected in terms of what that metric is, what that measurable target is. That's the difficulty, and without that you can't expect autonomy, you can't expect them to be accountable.

Speaker 2:

The most difficult, the most difficult um sites that I've gone into over the last sort of 15, 20 years actually, and the ones that are coasting but don't know they're coasting, they think everything's fine because for 15 years, 10 years, five years, no one's told them any different. And that's difficult when you, once you get into that ingrained sort of stoic well, well, this is how we've always done it. It's so difficult. And without making specific KPIs to offset the culture you want, you know it's almost impossible.

Speaker 2:

It can't be conversations, it can't just be. Let's get together and talk about what we expect. It's got to be structured and measured and they've got to sort of know it and see it every day, otherwise you just drift and as soon as a culture drifts and gets into that. That lack of performance calls you where you just don't know you're coasting. It's the most difficult thing to iron out because you know you've got 40 50 operators on a site, let's say that have been told they're doing an okay job for 10 years. You get someone like me that comes in and says actually it's not okay and it's it's far from okay and this is what we expect and this is what we're going to do to help you achieve it. It's a difficult conversation to have I completely agree.

Speaker 1:

You know. If you don't, if you don't know what good looks like, how do you, how you're supposed to know what, how you, what it looks like, absolutely and I think a lot of sites do that as well.

Speaker 2:

A lot of businesses do that ask that question what does good look like? And the problem that I see more often not is, when they talk about what good looks like, they're talking about what good looks like there yeah it's if I go over a five-a-side kick about tonight. I look okay amongst my friends, but my friends are terrible so if you go and then try and walk up, to them on track food.

Speaker 2:

You look terrible and it's an awkward conversation to have. And as soon as you have that conversation you need to have that conversation you lose the interest of a lot of people. You can't let it get to that point. But it's not just what good looks like here. It's what does good look like across the UK If you're making Mars bars? What does good look like at Nestle? What does good look like at Dairy Milk? What does good look like at Kraft? These are the questions you need to ask. It's not about what you expect because of what's gone before. It's about what can we reasonably achieve and how far are we away from it?

Speaker 1:

I completely agree. It's certainly those expectations and those standards, isn't it? It actually makes it easier to manage. We're very KPI heavy now. We didn't used to be years ago and I found it hard to manage because I was always managing emotionally and off gut and I personally find it very difficult to be negative when for an underperformance. I found that those conversations hard. I'm much better right now, but I did. But managing my numbers is such an easier way to manage, isn't it? Because it does it for you. What does good look like for you? You're in a new business tomorrow and, let's say, you do a very similar role to what you're doing now Agriculture industry. What are the main KPIs that you're going to be asking? What do they do now and looking forward to improving? Would you say?

Speaker 2:

I think in most businesses you start at quality, you start at the best employees that I've worked for, start at the customer and work backwards, and that's a really basic thing to say, but it's very difficult to do, actually, because you get caught in your own little world and you get caught in your department or your job and you don't look at the holistic approach and say you know, this is the best, if I do my job to the best of my abilities, it's going to affect my department, my department only, but that one unit flow. How is it affecting the next department and how does that ultimately lead back to the customer? That's the view you need to take and if you take that view, you come back, you start following the customer, you go quality right Okay, so we need quality, we need on time, we need on time, we needed full deliveries. And you just follow that back through the, through the process and with the helper leaning on the guys on the shop, all that know going off. You know data sheets and getting the data trending. You set specific timers, but the most important part of it is making sure not just that they're achievable, but actually that they mean something to the person involved.

Speaker 2:

And that's where I think kpis fall away sometimes is if it's just a number that you have to hit, it loses something. It's got to be a target that you've decided together. You've got the group or you've got the department, you've got the operative one-on-one almost, and you've created that target together and it's got to stretch them as well. That's the other thing we do. You know it's very easy. I've worked at businesses where the KPIs have been hit for five years and everyone's sort of happy. But again you're coasting and the machines are not at their maximum tons per hour. Let's say you're not stretching or not putting under stress, but you're not testing, you're not letting the guys on shifts work to the best of their ability and they're not achieving anything. They're not feeling like they're breaking records or feeling like they're adding value, because actually they're just ticking boxes the same way they've ticked boxes for the last six months, six years, you know. And that's what good looks like to me is are we pushing ourselves? Are we making quality products? Are we getting there on time in full? Are we thinking about energy resources? Is it sustainable? That's the main thing.

Speaker 2:

So when I say sustainable, I don't necessarily mean from an environmental point of view. I mean, it's very easy to throw a lot of work at a process or an implement, a process or work instruction, let's say, or a part of the manufacturing chain and if you just, if you just fault find in that area you can normally improve something. You throw people, you throw the time and you throw the effort, a process and you can root and cause analysis and you can make it better, that's fine. But then if you take that away the next day, is it still performing? And if you leave it a week on its loan and you stand alone in a month, is it still performing?

Speaker 2:

And that's kind of what I look for in terms of the kpi is is it still performing? And that's kind of what I look for in terms of the KPI is is it sustainable? Is it when I come away from it and all these short and short control improvements that we put in place? When all these improvements are in place and we take them away, is it going to be there and is it going to work? And is there enough control in that area so that the operative's got accountability and we can just leave them to it?

Speaker 1:

Ap that area so that the operative's got accountability and we can just leap into it. Apologies for interrupting this podcast with a very quick 30-second description of my business. Theo James are an engineering and manufacturing recruitment search firm based in Durham. We specialise in contracts and permanent opportunities from blue-collar semi-skilled roles right the way up to C-suite level exec positions. If you're looking for any new, additional staff or new opportunity for yourself in the industry, please contact me or the team. There'll be a specialist in your area waiting to help. I'm incredibly proud of this business and what we've built since our inception in 2015. And I would love to extend that service out to you. So thank you very much. Hope you enjoy the episode.

Speaker 1:

Kind of links in with that vision, doesn't it in terms of you know what you're talking about. There is a goal which they're all aligned to. I've been talking a lot of people recently about vision in business, because I think manufacturing is a little bit behind the times from some businesses, I would say, and I was challenged recently because I thought we had a vision. And then someone challenged me to say if you, if you got all your members of staffing, give a piece of paper and pen, write down what the vision is. Would they all be aligned? I was like fair point, you know they would have some idea, but they wouldn't be exactly on point with what the vision is and it gave me a good challenge to do so. How, how progressive do you think manufacturing is with that type of world, would you say, and can it help?

Speaker 2:

I think it can help. I think it more often not becomes a footnote. You've got to make sure that it is not just propaganda. So you know, every vision is normally some acronym stuck on a wall somewhere and that's fine, and it's always the same sort of values and they're always worthwhile values. But actually the more important point is so this is the company's vision. Especially if you've got a multinational company that's got different arms in different areas and you've got a strategic vision that encompasses all that, that's fantastic. But what does that mean at any given level? And it's about making sure that individuals have got goals, individuals have got a vision, so that department might have a vision that ties into the overall vision or that site, if you're multi-site, where do you play a part in that vision? And what does that tangibly look like?

Speaker 2:

People more and more now want. They want something they can hold in the hand, they want something they can see, they want something that okay. So we want to be brave. You know, nine times out of ten someone's got a vision. The word brave's in there. What does that mean? Where is? Where is my accountability like? What sort of remit have I got? What can I control, what can I not. And where do you want to ask those questions and other conversations day to day? Have a vision, absolutely have a strategic goal and have an end game. But make sure that every person at every level for that business knows what it tangibly means to them day to day and how they can affect that. And once you have those conversations it becomes a little bit less like propaganda and more like something that we can work towards yeah, yeah, you've nailed it.

Speaker 1:

It's uh, it's like the nasa thing. Analogy, isn't it? When they ask the cleaner what you do and she says I help put them out of the moon, do you mean? It's that whole piece? But you know that you could quite easily argue that it's like fluffy, because I agree with you. What does it mean to a shop, someone who works on the shop floor? Because, absolutely, and that is the problem, isn't it? Most time you look at a big wall and you go they're nice, but what does it mean? But if, if, that can tie back to the, every single person, that organization, and they benefit from it, then it works.

Speaker 2:

But it's and you've got to back it up as well. You've got to literally. I think it's certainly a managerial level where that's first line manager, um, the site manager, let's say multi-site manager you need to be able to back that up, and actually so I use brave as an example. If you're asking someone to be brave, brave enough to ask questions, brave enough to have ideas, brave enough to say you know, I'm not happy with that when they do that, you've got to. You've got to, absolutely every single time, make sure that you action that and that you have a conversation or piece of work off the back of it, even if that piece of work is to say, yeah, we've looked into it, we've looked into your comment and actually we're not going to progress it. Well, thank you. And this is what we're going to do, going forward off the back of what you said.

Speaker 2:

Too many times, these, these ideas, if you like, are put into people's minds, and the more progressive, the new, uh, the interested and the really worthwhile sort of strong followers, to pick a type they jump on board.

Speaker 2:

But every time that they're unheard, trying to progress these values, trying to make a difference, they just fall away and there's a certain amount of weight that comes with energy, so that if you constantly trying to bring up difference, they just fall away. And there's a certain amount of weight that comes with energy, so that if you're constantly trying to bring up new ideas or you're trying to make improve the workplace for someone else or for yourself, every time you get knocked back you lose a little bit of energy for it. And then sort of, these are the people that you might go into a business and see I've been there 15 years and actually are superstars, but they've just not been listened to. And it's because not just just because, but one of the issues might be because the vision doesn't relate to the day-to-day. They've got this vision, they see it, they think I'll have a piece of that. I get what the business is trying to do. I want to help that day-to-day, but if they're not got the backing of their first-line manager, then it's very difficult to keep going.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I'm saying I want to get your advice on on how you sort of grow and accelerate into management roles, because a lot of people who want to be managers and they perhaps might not have the opportunities internally. They might have some real apprehension about stepping into management and leadership. What's the best? What advice would you give someone to accelerate their management career, like you have in terms of what you've done?

Speaker 2:

Do you know what I'd honestly say. Just don't be scared to be a bit cheeky, it's a bit of pull. So there's a bit of gap analysis there in terms of and it's similar to the sort of firefighting equation where if you just firefight your entire week, your entire month, you never make stretch projects work because you just get bog entire your entire week, your entire month. You never, you never make stretch projects work because you just get bogged down in the firefighting. Similarly, if you're only thinking about being prolific in your role and training, let's say, or gaining knowledge in the areas that you deal with day to day, and not giving yourself that time to improve, you're probably not going to go too far. So I always try and find time and save a bit of time, energy for actually the role above me or a role that I want in two to three years. Let's say what's the gap analysis? What do they do now that I can't do? What experiences have they got that I can't, that I can't attest to, and how do I close that gap? And sometimes it comes to knocking on the door and saying can I spend 15 minutes in this meeting? I've never been across this meeting, or if someone's got a project that you find interesting, can you get involved in it and just pulling in information so that you know in two or three years or you know two or three weeks if that job becomes available that you've you know you've wanted for a while you can go into that room and be confident that you've got the right to be there.

Speaker 2:

One of the biggest issues I had after sort of going through two or three promotions or four promotions fairly quickly in your sort of less than 10 years, you just eventually you catch yourself up and you start to feel like an imposter because actually you've gone from sort of coasting for you know, in my younger years to progressing quite quickly and the best way to sort of get rid of that imposter syndrome is to is to is to know what you're doing day to day but also leaning to your weaknesses, and then you think about all right, I don't know this or I need this skill, I need this asset. You know, maybe I've not spent as much time in the hr side of things than I should have. Let's change that and let's set an amount of time, manage your time better so that you've got a period that you can go and spend some time with hr. You can jump on a course and you can improve your weaknesses or find people that offset your weaknesses and surround yourself with them so that you know you're just learning all the time.

Speaker 2:

And it's difficult to do. It's just a very simple thing to say, to just to educate yourself and and progress to that next level. But what happens is like me in my early 20s you get caught in your actual job Day to day. You just get caught in your job and you concentrate on becoming at what you know and what you're responsible for, when actually the way to progress is absolutely cover that and set a reputation of being someone who knows and could cover their role. But look above it and look to the side of it and think about you know, where do I want to be in two years and what's that gap I need to close?

Speaker 1:

yeah, yeah, because and any management isn't for everyone, is it?

Speaker 2:

it's a it's a difficult job and it might not even be management. We've had some really good results. I've had some really good results over the last five years that really off the wall stuff. So we've had people from an engineering background going to management. But we've also had people from um, analytical jobs and data processing that have gone. Do you know what? I want to learn what an engineer earns. Because they've got, because they've got a bit of knowledge of the site and they've got that local knowledge that I talk about. That's so valuable.

Speaker 2:

It takes a lot of time to get. We've done that and we've got people that have swapped roles completely and gone from office-based roles into plant-based roles and it's worked really well because they bring a different viewpoint and they shed lights on areas that we haven't looked at and they bring a different a flavor to the pot, if you like. So it's just. It's just literally about not getting too tied down in your day-to-day. Absolutely, you know you need to, you need to cover that, but every now and again one-to-ones you've had a one-to-one to your boss. How many one-to-ones turn into a tick box and exercise and how many people have sat in one-to-one consultations or reviews and just thought about I need to get back on the floor. I need to get back on my truck, I need to get back to my with when. Actually set yourself that time and think and be brave. Be brave and honest enough to say this is what I want, and I need you to help me get there, and the best managers will, because the best managers will realize that there's value in that.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, and you're right, it's um. We're interested in space right now as well because you're finding, because there's supply and demand, people I think less people will put their hand up for management than they used to be because of the money situation. You know, we've got vacancies for maintenance engineers at 50, 60 grand and maintenance managers at 50, 60 grand, and that is the current space, because there's such a demand for certain skill sets and there isn't necessarily those demands for managers. For managers, they're getting paid the same and it's it's a high. Both jobs have got pressure, but I would argue the managerial pressure is harder.

Speaker 2:

Personally, yeah, and it is interesting and, as I've done a couple of times, like when you change industries as well, you know the money changes for no other reason than the, than the wealth of that industry. Some, some industries are much more affluent than others, if you were. Animal feed is notoriously high. Sorry, it's low margins but high volumes and that's what we make money from Animals very high volume but fairly low margin compared to the chemical industry. So it's about thinking about. Sometimes it's not about the organization or the industry, it's about the people. If you find a good boss that progresses you and you've stuck with the boss I'm lucky enough to have had some really good bosses. I've had some terrible ones, but more recently than not, I've had some fantastic bosses and if you find an environment where you are constantly pushing yourself and you are thriving whether it's into management or whether it's not driving, whether it's into management or whether it's not, you know that's gold dust. Essentially, that's the time when you go right, I'll stick and I'll have conversations and I'll progress through this industry. But it's worthwhile me staying where I am because I've got that succession, I've got someone who believes in me and I'm being paid for my worth.

Speaker 2:

But it does come down to sometimes adding your own value. You know it can't all be poor talk about uh, you talk about business's responsibility to pay you a competitive wage and to progress and give you the training you need to add value to the business. But sometimes you've got to prove your worth. That's the other side of things and I've had that, you know, quite a few times where you've got to go right. Well, I come here primarily to be paid, love the job, the people. But actually first train of thought is I need to be paid and I want to be in a place where I'm not available to be poached by other companies because I love working here. But in that situation sometimes it's on the person, it's on the employee to prove your worth and to action the results and to show your successes and to celebrate your wins and to say I'm adding value to this business wins and to say I'm I'm adding value to this business and this is what I'm worth.

Speaker 2:

And sometimes the businesses I've worked in where you see those gaps between you know, use the example of engineers, which is a really good one, whether it be engineers or hdv drivers. That are difficult jobs and they're paid the same as managers are just a bit less. You've got to prove your worth and show that actually you add value. More than that, that engineer wise, the business has sort of got every right to go. Actually, at the moment, with the output that you're giving, we could lose you and it'd be a pain, we'd have to replace you, but we get away with it. Whereas if we lose our engineer, the site goes down and you've got to be able to add the same amount of value as someone who is of that level yeah, and that's still pressure, isn't it?

Speaker 1:

and that's the thing, and normally it gets back to right what you said right at the start for you, that your values are aligned with leaving some form of legacy, even if you're there for a day or a week or a month. They're your values and that's why, for you, management's right, because you're driven by that.

Speaker 2:

You're driven absolutely difference and it's the one I think early on, when I talk about you know, doing sort of 10 years of supervisory level and just staying there, the thing that really got me out of that not what I wouldn't use that word, but got me out of that that mindset was I like to make changes. That's that's what I enjoy about working at a senior management level is I like to make changes. I like to be able to make changes. That's what I enjoy about working at a senior management level is I like to make changes. I like to be able to make big, long changes the fast moving consumer goods. At supervisor level, it's difficult to make an impact.

Speaker 1:

You make an impact on the day to day.

Speaker 2:

You make an impact on the weeks, but to change things at a strategic level, an operational level, it's very difficult and it takes big teams and it takes a lot of time and it takes a lot of admin to be able to make changes and be able to improve something holistically, from root up. That's what I like about this industry. That's what I enjoy day to day. I don't want particularly I want to improve the day to day and I like marginal gains as much as the next person. But actually what really gets me out of bed in the morning is the thought of completely uprooting a process and making it improve and having six, seven, a hundred operatives go. Do you know what? This is better, this works and our lives are easier because of it. The customers are happier because of it. That excites me and I think if you want to do that, you need to be at a managerial giving a level. Andy.

Speaker 1:

Kirkwood, 00,00,00 yeah, 100%. You led me into my next question, which is who's the best manager you've ever had and why would you say you got to pick one? Will Barron, 00,00,00 yeah.

Speaker 2:

I have to pick one. So my previous manager I've gone through a few managers last couple of years but I worked for a guy, quite a progressive guy, in the feed industry quite recently a couple of years ago and it's similar to me. Yeah, I probably wouldn't. He wouldn't call himself an expert. He'd definitely call himself sort of someone with a knowledge of all bits and pieces of different things. He wouldn't become an expert in the field, but what he was very good at was getting the best out of a group of people and being able to uplift and pick a team almost and say these are my superstars, these are the people I'm going to back, this is how I'm going to back here, and I mean a real short amount of time compared to what I'm used to.

Speaker 2:

So I'm talking, you know, six months to nine months and really taking a group of people that were working one way and saying you've got my added value in this area. You can improve this, you can improve that, get your test to get to a team. Whatever we needed, we'll back you. If it's training, I'll back you. If it's equipment, I'll back you, and then just working holistically and that's kind of the approach I take now day to day. I lean on people. I wouldn't say I'm an expert in any particular field, but I like to think that I'm able to see the strengths in people around me and build up on on their shoulders almost, and just get together in a room and say, look, this is the issue. This is what I think as a starting point. Let's go from there. But yeah, I won't mention his name because he's he's. He's got a big enough ego as it is.

Speaker 2:

But yeah that's the kind of manager I'd like to be, Someone that when there's an issue to be solved, it's not shut the door, get one or two people in behind a closed room, lack of communication I've worked with managers like that as well. Make a decision, make a quick decision, make the wrong decision, Make a decision based on pressure rather than what is right for the customer and right for the staff. But yeah, something's gone wrong. Open door. Anyone who can add value, let's solve it together. Let's solve it quickly, but let's solve it structured. Let's not be too yeah, too rushed with it and at the end of it, if it works, perfect. And actually, if it doesn't work, be brave enough to go. Do you know what it's not working? Let's go in a different direction.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I love it. And just finally, John, what's happening in the industry right now, Because people listen to this and maybe not work see how cultural industry, your manufacturing's up and down right now moment.

Speaker 2:

It's very similar to a lot of industries. To be fair, I think it's one of the biggest challenges we have in agriculture, um as the same, the same challenges that all manufacturers having. Is that very difficult to be brave? I've talked a lot about being progressive and making stock changes, but when raw materials costs are at an all-time high in the market, margins are low and energy is at a price that no one saw 15, 20 years ago, if you had told me that I'd be paying 100k for the site that I manage now, in terms of energy a month, 10 years ago, I wouldn't have believed you. And when those metrics change and when the economy where it is, it's very difficult then to be challenging, to be progressive.

Speaker 2:

It was easier five or 10 years ago to make big projects stick because there was a little bit of slack there. Every business had that little bit of risk, that room for maneuver, whereas now, if you make a mistake on shift or if you make a mistake at a capex level, uh, the payback's going to take 10, 15 years longer than it did before. So it's very similar risks, I think, to most industries. Well, material prices, energy and generally just keeping up with the economy and actually the changing consumer market in terms of what people want, what people want from food.

Speaker 2:

You know, we look at um the rise in vegetarians arising in vegans. That affects us, and it's about diversifying and looking at all the same stuff that most industries are looking at. Can we make more byproducts, can we be circular, can we be more sustainable? And trying to think about where we are in 10, 15, 25 years, whereas probably in this industry in the 90s, in the early 2000s, you, you're looking 5, 10 years ahead, whereas now we, 2000s, you're looking five, 10 years ahead, whereas now we've got to be brave enough to look 25 years ahead.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, excellent. It's interesting because there are so many challenges but there's opportunities. Like you say, absolutely, the landscape changes but it brings opportunities with it and I think that for me that's been one of the nice takeaways for today. I always like to think of my own takeaways. I often, like I did today, forget I'm on a podcast and just sort of learn and listen. Uh, and I've learned a lot from you and I think probably my biggest takeaway it's reminding me that leadership doesn't need to be lonely, because everything you've talked about is that collaboration piece. You know, whether that's the, the kpis, the vision piece, the making decisions, even from early age, it was obvious for you that it was all about the people around you who were going to help you absolutely and you were going to facilitate those people. And then you're going to leave that legacy of someone who does that and I think that's a real key takeaway for me and, I'm sure, the people listening, that it doesn't have to be lonely leadership you've got, I think're absolutely right.

Speaker 2:

And I would add to that that when it becomes lonely that's when there has been times where it has been lonely you feel isolated, you feel like the man in the tower. That's when you're at risk of making poor decisions. If you make a poor decision, it's normally unless you're an expert, and even if at that point you've made a good decision in isolation, you still need to make sure the communication's right. You still need to get the buy-in of the guys. You still need to get the buy-in of the people on the floor so that they can enforce what you want them to do.

Speaker 2:

But normally, if I've made a bad decision, if I've made a decision that I've had to recant a week, two months, a year later, I look back and I think it's probably one I've made on my own, whereas the decisions I've made holistically, the decisions I've made as a team with lean and all expertise uh in and around me, they normally, more often than not, work out really really well. And it's just, you know, it's uh trial and error, something works. Keep doing it and leaning on people. As long as you've got the right people in place, you're never going to go too far wrong really yeah, exactly, that's like humility.

Speaker 1:

Is it to to to be fine with making mistakes, holding your hand up and being honest? I think that's the the greatest change of leadership I think I've seen in the last 10 years. I really do, yeah, definitely.

Speaker 2:

And then it's about how far you go with that as well. So I talk about the internal people, but external as well, that my number one bugbear with bad managers that I've had is that it's that duplication of work. There's nothing, nothing worse than doing a piece of work, a process, a project. You spend three days, three months, three weeks, whatever it is on that project and you find out it's been done. It's been done, and not only has it been done in another site, either internally or externally, but it's been done better than you because it's been done by an expert. I'm a big believer in not reinventing the wheel. If it's been done, it's been done. Well, let's save that time and let's take best practice from other areas and implement it where we work, and then we can use that time for something else.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, completely agree. Well, thank you so much for your time. That's been great and I wish you all the best. Thank you very much.

Speaker 2:

No, I enjoyed it, man. Thanks for having me.

Speaker 1:

Thank thanks for having me. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the manufacturing leaves podcast. It absolutely means the world to me. Please let me know if you need any assistance. As a business, we look at providing partnerships with manufacturing engineering companies to really help their recruitment and attention on the recruitment piece, anywhere from blue collar semi-skilled staff right the way up to C-suite level executive appointments, but also much more than that. We run events. So please let me know if you're interested in any of those.

Speaker 1:

If you are interested in becoming a podcast guest, we're very, very keen to speak to you as well More than happy to do so. But as a business, as I say, we look at key partnerships that really help your recruitment, your retention, your marketing, your training. We really believe in the partnership piece and being extension of your business. We're very proud to work in this sector. I love manufacturing engineering and my staff are just as passionate about it as I am. So thank you once again for listening. Please get in touch to talk about anything we can do to help look forward to speaking to you very soon. Thank you once again for listening. Please get in touch to talk about anything we can do to help. Look forward to speaking to you very soon. Thank you.