Manufacturing Leaders

Peter Fairly: Leadership Lessons in Driving Growth and Shaping the Future of British Manufacturing

• Mark Bracknall • Season 9 • Episode 7

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Discover the essence of leadership with Peter Fairly, the Group Managing Director of the Fairly Gun Group Ltd. Peter, who co-founded the group with Jonathan James Gun, takes us on a captivating journey from his engineering roots to managing multiple successful businesses. He shares valuable insights on the nuances of leadership, emphasising the balance between managing and mentoring. Learn how an engineering apprenticeship laid the foundation for Peter's career and understand the critical role of hands-on experience in shaping effective leaders.

Peter's story offers an intriguing look into business growth and acquisition strategies, highlighting the importance of due diligence and strategic fit in the acquisition process. He delves into the intricacies of acquiring businesses, ensuring stability and continuity post-acquisition, and building a strong team to support company transitions. The conversation also sheds light on the changing landscape of career longevity, showcasing the diverse opportunities available in today's dynamic market compared to previous generations.

As we explore the future of the Fairly Gun Group, Peter shares his vision for championing British manufacturing and the importance of supporting this vital industry. He discusses the dynamics of running a business with a partner, the benefits of collaboration, and the necessity of taking breaks to prevent burnout. Looking ahead to 2026, Peter outlines the group's plans for growth and expansion, including potential acquisitions and new product developments. For those keen to learn more or collaborate, Peter encourages connecting via LinkedIn for further insights and opportunities.

Please subscribe to the channel for more content! Theo James are a Manufacturing & Engineering Recruiter based in the North East, helping Manufacturing and Engineering firms grow across the UK. Please call us on 0191 5111 298

Speaker 1:

So it's not live, obviously, mate. So I can just edit if I need to. So don't worry about it. But what I tend to do, once I've done it, at the end of it, I tend to record the introduction after you've left. Now, just I kind of summarize the episode. So when we start, I just start basically and go into it, if that makes sense. Yeah, yeah, once it's edited. But is there anything else on that? I'll look down for my notes from time to time to remind myself, but we'll just have a chat through. Really, is there anything else on there that you want me to ask you or segue you into? Or just what you said about the culture piece and whatnot, which is great?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, just kind of roll with it, we'll see how it goes. Nothing, yeah, no sort of agenda or anything.

Speaker 1:

Nah, we'll just have a chat through. I'm looking forward to it. It'll be a lot easier for me than the one I did yesterday. I did one. It was good like, but I was outside my comfort zone. It was a lady who owns a like sustainability EV company called Nordic Energy and it was all about EV sustainability and stuff and my knowledge is okay of that area. It's not amazing, so I was winging it. I was winging it a bit. I prefer these ones where I can resonate a little bit with it.

Speaker 1:

So yeah, but, um, I'll just start when you're ready, mate. That's all right. Yeah, absolutely fantastic, right a a warm welcome today to peter fairly, the group md of the fairly gun group. How are you, peter?

Speaker 2:

yeah, thanks for having us mark.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I'm good thanks, I'm good. Are you, Peter? All good? Yeah, thanks for having us, Mark. Yeah, I'm good. Thanks, I'm good. Are you okay? Really good. Thanks, mate, Looking forward to it. So first question, same question. I ask everyone that comes on what does it mean to you to be a leader?

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So I think to be a leader you've got to have good instincts and that's difficult to put your finger on what's good instincts and then you've got to have good intuition. Then good intuition comes from a few different places. Your experience comes a bit from your instincts and everything you've done in life, but it's more what's inside. I'm not saying leaders are born or you can't develop into a leader, but it's definitely something that's in them, whether it's untapped or not at that point of time. And a leader doesn't have to be a title or anything. It can be literally anyone, anywhere, and it's. It's funny when you you kind of go through things and you come across different people in different stages of their life, in different positions, and you can identify them quite quickly or you are a good leader yeah, I like that it's.

Speaker 1:

I like the fact that, like you say, doesn't be a title. I mean, when you said that my my memory went back to a few people I've managed before. Years ago we wanted wanting to be managers and they're going I want to be manager, we'll manage.

Speaker 2:

Then, yeah you don't need the title yeah, and that's it, isn't it?

Speaker 1:

because there's different sort of people. People just want to manage and mentor people. Some people actually just want the title and it's weeding out those, isn't it?

Speaker 2:

and that's absolutely fine. But as long as they're true to themselves, then you can help them yeah exactly.

Speaker 1:

I'm looking forward to this episode for a number of reasons, mainly in particular because I guess I have a whole variety of people on here now and quite a few obviously own manufacturing businesses. We're of a similar age. I own a recruiting business. I'm, stressed enough, owning one business. You have made the decision to acquire and manage and lead various businesses, so I'm really intrigued by this. So could you mind just giving me an introduction just briefly, about the Fairly Gun Group, initially, just in terms of what it consists of, peter, please?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so there's two of us, myself and Jonathan James Gun, so we're 50-50 in the whole group and, as you say, the group was born out of acquisition and that all started. It was kind of back in 2009 when me and Jonathan met. So we were both doing our apprenticeships, doing our training as junior engineers, and we met in college when we were doing our day release, met in college, kind of become friends, finished college, finished uni Uni was one day a week, finished that. We were both working at different businesses, stayed in touch. You know quite good friends, common mentality, both engineering centric. But when we kind of finished uni, jonathan really concentrated on the technical side of it and although I stayed in engineering positions, I definitely had an attitude for kind of an entrepreneurial flair about us which wasn't quite untapped.

Speaker 2:

And then the opportunity come up to buy the place where Jonathan was working. So the previous owners wanted to retire and Jonathan was the natural succession but he's super technical, fine on that side of it. But because we'd known each other for a long period of time and knew each other's capabilities and actually knew what quite complimentary, he'd come to me and says got this opportunity, would you like to come in with us. If you do the business side of it, I'll look after the technical side. I was like, well, that's an opportunity I kind of missed. So we went away, raised the funds, packaged the deal, then got it done. During that whole process we both realized we're quite ambitious guys and there's a lot more to be had there. So from that initial acquisition we went on and bought three more. So now we've got four businesses within the group.

Speaker 1:

Amazing. And what are the businesses you company own?

Speaker 2:

So it's NDT Electronic Services based in Gerald, Gilligan Engineering Services based in Prudhoe, Select Control Systems based in Washington, and then Metrix NDT, which is based in Loughborough in the Midlands. So that was our first one out of region. Excellent.

Speaker 1:

That's two of our national. When did you realise you had that? You mentioned that, that entrepreneurial itch. Has that always been apparent, or is that something that you've created over time?

Speaker 2:

I've kind of always knew so from an early age. As I was going through retraining, going through the academic learning and all of that, I always knew I had a bit more to give and always had the itch to work for myself. But initially I thought, oh, I'll be in a subcontractor route, I'll kind of work for myself, I'll be a subbie for somebody, some sort of engineering discipline. So it was always there. I suppose I was just waiting for time and the opportunity to come up and this was kind of the perfect one. And then that's just provided the platform to, to really to um, what am I trying to say?

Speaker 2:

to, uh, I think it's essential so that's just provided the platform to really to reach me potential. I'll go for it. So it's provided a good say, good platform for both me and jonathan. He's absolutely loving the technical side of it and I'm getting to play in the business world, which is fantastic.

Speaker 1:

And you had a really good upbringing and you know, come as a Crabtree apprentice. You know real good, you know names in the Northeast, I guess, and was that? Do you think, a lot of what you are because of that? Initially, absolutely.

Speaker 2:

The apprenticeship training I got at Crabtree Luck, whatever it was. The group of guys, the team that I kind of went into were amazing. Still in touch with some of them today. One of them was actually at my wedding. So I kind of stay in touch and I try and go to the Christmas parties. I mean I'd left Crabtree in I think it was 2015. And so you're coming up sort of nine, 10 years now and I was still going to the Christmas parties and it got to the point where the Christmas parties there was more people who weren't working at Crabtree. So that just goes to the culture element. There was fantastic. But the product that Crabtree design and manufacture, the metal decorating machinery, the printing presses for engineering training I would it was second to none because you had the electrical disciplines, the mechanical, the pneumatics, the hydraulics, the control systems, the functional safety. You just had everything on one product so you could really get this fully rounded engineering experience and then go into whichever specialty you wanted.

Speaker 1:

You mentioned that timing thing as well, and I think timing in business is everything and often it's not exactly. You wouldn't have known that that was the year you were going to do it. You were someone who was learning your trade, but you had your eyes open for that opportunity and these things don't always land on your lap. You've got to be looking for it, I guess. But actually there'll be potentially some young engineers here thinking I want to start my own business. I want to do it. How important was it for you to get those years under your belt to understand the trade first, would you say?

Speaker 2:

so from an engineering perspective and my my personal experience, there's definitely people out there that do well in business and they don't necessarily have the skills or the experience. In whatever business the manager know they've got kind of the investor side of it. But from my experience and being in the world of engineering, having having that hands-on experience, learning it, doing it, you've messed up, you've bruised your knuckle, you've cut your finger, you've I shouldn't say you've had an electric shock or whatever. They're vital if you want to, kind of in my eyes, if you want to rise up in the engineering world, just because you get you can talk to all of the different levels. So when you're talking to you might take on an apprentice one day and if you're chatting to them you can share your experiences. You kind of know what they're going through. Then all the way up to whether you're talking to the bank.

Speaker 2:

Sometimes when I'm talking to the bank, if I slip into the engineering mindset and I'd start talking that I mean they're very polite and they listen and maybe they're fascinated and curious, but they're, you know, maybe they gloss over a little bit, but that that's fine. It shows I fully know the business, I fully know what's going on. I've got that element of control so it just helps with my management, my day-to-day decisions. If I know if I make a decision and that sort of filters through, I've got a reasonable idea how that's going to impact the people doing the job yeah, and you mentioned crabtree, obviously, tharsis.

Speaker 1:

You know two, two really big names northeast. What do you think now, if you look at the business you're involved in now, what lessons have you learned, you think, and what have you taken from working those businesses that now you're applying to, the businesses, now you're involved in, you've acquired? What do you say?

Speaker 2:

yeah. So I don't know what crabtree had, but it was definitely the people that, the people in the culture that they had say it was amazing and most of the the people are still in touch today and they're still socialized and everything like that, although they've moved jobs a couple of times. So I don't know, don't really know what they had, what they had, but it was just a good bunch of people with a similar mindset wanting to do the same thing. And then huge respect for excuse me huge respect for Brian, palmer and Tharsis. When I was there I'd come in.

Speaker 2:

It wasn't wasn't the very, the very, very early stages, but it was a little bit on from that when I joined. So I joined when it was still very changed. There was a lot of change going on. There was a lot of new products sort of coming through. They were really establishing, establishing themselves and gathering momentum, and then I'd left and it was actually a couple of weeks ago. I got the opportunity to go back to Tharsis to have a look around as part of the forum and it was really nice just to chat with Brian and see how far they've come so far to learn from Thorsis. They've identified what they were really good at identified a good gap in the market and then just honed in on that.

Speaker 1:

Do you think and this is a question that you know, I'm not saying I've got an opinion away on it, but do you think that's rare now? Because I hear your Crabtrees, your Black Deckers, those sort of businesses where people still talk about where they came up 20 years ago, where they saved the time People stayed there for 20, 30 years. I don't think I hear that quite as much now. Do you think businesses have just changed and their motivations are different? Do you think the generation change or not? Because I don't feel I hear that quite as much as I used to about how good businesses are in comparison.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, you did, sort of my parents, grandparents get a job, you're set for life, sort of thing. That talent has definitely changed, probably thinking about it, probably because there's more opportunity, there's more variety out there. So the likes of Crabtree, fantastic at what they've done, they've established for quite a long time, hadn't not to be too critical but hadn't really changed with the times. And then when they did start the R&D activities, maybe it was too late, maybe it was half-hearted, maybe, whatever. So if people now, because they're a lot more connected, the likes of this, zooms, teams, all of that a lot more connected places are easier to get to my wife's from Northern Ireland and it's a lot easier to hop on a plane at Newcastle, fly to Belfastfast when we're long distance and to see her than it was to get to london crazy, yeah cheaper as well.

Speaker 2:

It's quicker and cheaper so people are a lot more connected there. So there's opportunities. So if, if a business can it or doesn't want to kind of continue to grow and do different things, provide different opportunities to people, different, and I'll do a different thing, try a different thing, people have quite easy access to other things out there so they want to try it. Then if they want career progression, if they want, if they're ambitious, if somebody kind of fulfill that, then they'll.

Speaker 1:

They'll just move on and try somewhere else yeah, so it's almost like we've become less patient since Amazon Prime generation. Yeah it's definitely yeah, and I imagine when you were at Crabtree there was probably tough times. There's probably times where you questioned things, but people stuck in, dug in, trusted the business and ultimately that is, like you say, probably the difference now where people go. I'm just going to try something else now.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, people. I suppose people really at one point had job security quite high up the list. Yeah, that's it, it. You don't know. But like if, if something happened to that job back whenever, it was all, what am I going to do now, where I think the mentality is, I'll quite easily get a job?

Speaker 1:

yeah, no, I think I think you bang on. I want to fast forward to the the acquisition piece. That's okay because I think there'll be people listening potentially who are interested in that, in that type of industry, in terms of how that, how that all works. You mentioned that you know raising funds and and go over that process. So when you're in that situation where there's an opportunity there to acquire a business, but obviously you know not many people that age have got the cash to to do it how hard is that process and what are the obvious steps somebody would need to take to be able to make that all happen, would you say and raise those funds in that situation?

Speaker 2:

So there's a few different things you can do to raise funds. So people think when you buy a business, it's he has all the cash, I'll see you later, and then they disappear and buy a Ferrari or end up on the beach somewhere. It doesn't quite happen like that in reality. So there's always an element of deferred consideration, so you'll pay the seller over time and that can take a few different forms. So when you're acquiring a business, it's all about whatever debt you're going to raise, can you service it one way or another? Is it through that business? Is it through other businesses you've got? Is it through other ventures or income you've got to service that debt? And then it's raising the initial consideration, so the money you'll pay on day one. So that's kind of what you've got to look for.

Speaker 1:

And then raising that money.

Speaker 2:

There's a few different things you can do for that. So, whether you've got some cash in the bank you're willing to invest, whether you can find a third party to come in with the money like a silent partner, an angel investor, they can do that. Or there's again different ways. You can actually raise money within the business so you can self-fund the initial consideration from that business. But you need to be careful that the business can actually service whatever debt you take on, because you'll see it time and time again, there's a load of money on it, don't look after the business and then it all goes down the swanny. So you need to leverage that correctly and provide whoever's doing the lending with enough confidence that you're actually going to make this a success and you've done this a few times now.

Speaker 1:

So you must know what good looks like and what a an investable business looks like. And if, if you know, there's a small business owner out there who has acquisition or a trade sale or whatever as a motive, what do they need to do? What? What do you look for personally in a business which is attractive for you, would you say?

Speaker 2:

so, first and foremost, we need the seller needs to be willing to sell. So if, if they're thinking about it, if they're humming and about it, they're just kind of oh, is somebody interested or not? Like you can just end up wasting your own time, wasting other people's time. I understand there's an element of research that needs to go into it. So you're going to need to have conversations with people, but unless you're ready to sell, the conversations won't get too serious because of buy, I'll just be put off. They're not going to play cat and mouse with you, like, just want to get a deal done, want to move on. The longer it drags on, the more it costs everybody. So that's first and foremost. They are ready to sell.

Speaker 2:

And then you start looking for business performance. How well is it doing the strategic fit to whatever you've got, whatever you're trying to do, and how good is the team there? So is it a team of five and there's two owners and they both want to exit, but they hold all of the supplier relationships, all of the customer relationships. They do the invoice and the quote and everything. And what are you buying? Yeah, then the? I suppose the big element as well is the seller needs to be realistic about the valuation. So they might be sitting there thinking I've got a £5 million business and you go in and go, you do everything and you work 100 hours a week and nothing's written down and you talk to all of the customers personally. How are you coming to that valuation? How you come to that valuation? I mean not to knock the businesses, because it might be providing a fantastic income and stability and everything for the owners and they've done really well. It looks after them, provides good income, stability, doing everything they want to do.

Speaker 1:

But to the next owner it might not carry the same value yeah, it's really interesting because I guess, as business owners, we all think we've got great businesses and we all think you know it's, isn't it? And then you only know, but you, you bang on a lot of the time. You take that owner out of the business. What's the? To what detriment? You know what's the, what's that business look like? I imagine that's the biggest, the biggest thing yeah.

Speaker 2:

So when we first started, we say me and jonathan took over ndt electronics and very, very hands-on that was. That was kind of fine, that's what needed to be happened, that's what needed to be done. And then the other ones were kind of less and less hands-on until we but now we're at a at a reasonable size of four businesses. The next one would just can, it would just cannot be that hands on. So it's all about building the team, building the culture of everything. So you've, you don't have to be as hands-on as you once were.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, so I guess you're almost then, if you are, you make the same mistake as the potential previous seller that you're just trying to replace them and you've only got and it's a risk, like the owner being that involved.

Speaker 2:

it's a risk. What happens if yeah, I don't know the owner wins the lot? We are the heaven begins. Forbid the become poorly. What happens to all their?

Speaker 2:

team members like suddenly the business is at risk and everybody, everything they've worked so hard to build and look after and build a team and cultivate it like they're all suddenly at risk. So it's kind of not fair on everybody else, the owner being that fault. But I understand, I've been understand, being involved myself. I understand it's great because it's yours and you're building it and you're doing everything, which is fine. But it's that long-term view.

Speaker 1:

What's that like once, day one, of going into that new business? Obviously, I'm sure there's a period of time, a long period of time working with the previous owner, but there will be a time where they pass the baton to you. It might must feel a little bit like sam allergeist, coming in sometimes and doing that. What? What's that process like when you realize that, right, it's down to me, and you mentioned that culture piece. I imagine those first couple of months are crucial to key people yeah, so we've.

Speaker 2:

We've took the approach of if nobody realizes, the ownership's changed within like six months. We've done a good job. So we just want we just want it to be seamless. So we're trying work with the previous owners just to make that whole process as seamless as possible, because they want to sell, we want to buy and everybody wants it to work. So it's it's in everybody's interest to work together. So we're we're trying to work with them as much as possible to make that seamless. So when the transaction happens, business just continues and the people are. The people are looked after, they're absolutely fine, just business as normal customer suppliers. They're unnerved, so everything just continues. And then, once you get sort of past the six months, you've been in there and you know how it operates and you know what's going on. So then you can start to make better informed decisions. The last thing I would want to do was go in and just change everything on day one. It would be a worse nightmare for everybody. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

But I imagine that's the fear for a lot of people thinking what you know, because obviously in in one sense it could and should be a positive that investment. You know that perhaps the previous seller has decided he can't, he couldn't take that business any further, but change is scary to most people, isn't it?

Speaker 2:

yes, yeah, and it's got to be done right. I'm not saying where you always get it right, because we're human and what you think's a great idea or a great approach doesn't actually work in practice, and so you go through them, them learning curves of. I shouldn't have done that, I shouldn't have said that, yeah, but we're always coming from the well intentions because we are trying to secure people's jobs. We don't want to come in and make a load of evidence or anything. That's not what we're about. We want't want to come in and make a load of redundancy or anything. That's not what we're about. We want, we want to grow the businesses. We want the businesses to be good, because if the businesses are good, we get to look after that team, they get job security, they get opportunity that comes from that and we have a good, strong business that's running well, so everybody kind of wins in your opinion, is it?

Speaker 1:

is it? Um? Do you look at things more organically in the sense of who's in this team and what can they do? Or is it a case of where are the gaps, how can we fill them? Or I imagine a bit of a mix between all that.

Speaker 2:

It's a bit of both. It's a bit of both. So perfect scenario is you come from inside and then you backfill, so to speak, because again, you're feeding their ambition, but not everybody wants to do that and not everybody's ready to do that. So you've just got to, just got to work with them and just figure it out. Is it best for somebody who's already in there to take up the position and you'll just coach and mentor them through? Or I know actually we need. We need somebody who's been there, done it, to come in and do this. And we've got both. I've had both scenarios.

Speaker 1:

What would you say are the biggest? Now you've done it a few times. What are the biggest lessons that you've learned? What would you do differently if you do it again?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, you're not allowed to say nothing, because otherwise it is the people element Say we've done some things wrong and we should have done some things better. We should have done things sooner, like soon as, as soon as you know something's not quite right there. But you know there's a thousand other things going on, so you're like something's not right, I'll come back to that, yeah, and then, before you know it, that's become an actual, quite a big problem which is a lot harder to deal with.

Speaker 1:

So dealing with things faster would definitely be something I'd do different again and you've obviously selected particular companies that complement each other and complement the group. Now, which it would say, how important is that to pick the right businesses for the business? Is it variety better or niche down? What, in your opinion, is the best way to look there?

Speaker 2:

it's you'll, you'll always be better off with niche. Okay, like that that'll, that'll kind of always trump. Because if it's niche well careful what I was about to say if it's niche, you'll always have a market. But that's you always have a market while it's going. But when it's it's niche, you've um say, you've got, you've got more value to offer your customers. So if you're niche and then you bring something else in, you can be like oh, mr customer, actually I know we're doing all of this for you, but we can actually offer this as well. So then you start offering more value to your customer, which which is good for business and the customers looked after.

Speaker 1:

So hopefully, whatever they're doing, they can provide greater value, and then that just is a knock-on effect yeah, I imagine you can almost link in some situations the supply chain and the network and that together as well, which will set a big cost saving.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, absolutely so. If you get a business and they select control systems being a great example they buy a lot of, obviously, control system gear, control system gear, yeah, so they, they get good discounts on all of that. So it's better for other internal companies to buy the control switch gear from select. So they're still getting a bit of a margin, still getting their sales. Everybody's happy there and the other internal companies are getting a bit of a cost saving, so kind of everybody's winning internally. So you start to get them synergies as you bring more in and as you kind of grow. Yeah excellent.

Speaker 1:

You've touched on jonathan um a little bit and and I'd be interested in your opinion how important is it to go into this type of business with someone else versus go going alone, and how difficult is it to pick the right business partner?

Speaker 2:

because I've heard some stories of people who haven't yeah, pick up my book, go to any management seminar. They'll say don't go into business with your friend.

Speaker 1:

Yeah my best pal. I also go on this business so I understand you know more pros than cons, but you know it can be a challenge. So what's your experience with?

Speaker 2:

it. We get on really well. We complement each other greatly. So we'll clash from time to time, but we're both. We both know what we want and we're both heading in the same direction, got the same vision, all of that. So although we'll clash it, we're doing it for the right reasons. So I'll I'll be very optimistic and very let's go and do all of these. I'll I'll be very optimistic and very let's go and do all of these great things. And he'll be like well, no, take a, take a breath, come on.

Speaker 1:

I'm the take a breath guy, yeah.

Speaker 2:

So then somewhere in the middle is probably the right thing to do, so that that works really well. What was your other question?

Speaker 1:

Well, I'm interested does it come naturally in terms of your roles in the business? Does it come naturally where you know one of you is naturally more hands-on, one is more natural leadership, one's business one not, or actually, is that plan documented to go? These are our roles and this is what we do.

Speaker 2:

There is. It is documented but because we've grown like really fast over sort of three and a half years, there's a lot of crossover and there's a lot of dynamic stuff going on. But very roughly, jonathan just looks after all of the technical side and I'll look after a very broad umbrella of the business side of it. Um, but there is a lot of crossover so he has input to that because he looks at things differently to how I do and I've got some engineering knowledge, background and everything.

Speaker 2:

So if you stuck on a problem and he just needs a fresh pair of eyes, I'm able to offer a bit of assistance. I know I kind of go to the level he can, but I I can tell have you tried this or what about that? Then you say, of course I have, or I never thought about that?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's. Could you now you have a business partner? Could you imagine doing this alone?

Speaker 2:

No, it's a lot harder. Yeah, it's. You know we're being good because you know you have your days and we'll joke.

Speaker 1:

as long as we don't have a bad day at the same time, we're all right yeah, like that, because I, I, I agree, you know, there's financial pros, I guess, for some people owning businesses outright, but for me it's a lonely. It's a lonely world, as is even with two of you, you know, with one person frightening yeah, no, it's been good.

Speaker 2:

I couldn't have done it without him. I don't know what he'd say about me. I'll get him one after this, but yeah, it's been invaluable doing it together.

Speaker 1:

Where do you see going? What's the big picture? What's the vision for the Fairleigh Gun Group 10, 15 years from now? You might be going to beat somewhere and sold out, but what's the big vision for you?

Speaker 2:

we say so, the whole vision of the group was to champion, to support british, british manufacturing. So there is some financial targets attached to that, but that's not really what's driving it all it's. I'm going to go back to the crabtree days when I first joined there. I think it's just the again back to the timing element. There was a lot of people who were kind of ex-shipyards, ex-coal mines, so some really really you, the heritage of the manufacturing engineering from the northeast. Some of them were working at Crabtree. So I had the, the benefit, the look of kind of getting trained off some of them. But then they retired and you didn't have to look very far to go. Well, actually there's a lot of businesses in the northeast and throughout the UK that were probably born out of recession or redundancies or something. Closing and they started welding is a great example. So the shipyards closed.

Speaker 2:

Some people got a job, some people didn't. Some welders take a welder, for example. They go to welding. They're like, what the hell do I do to pay the rent this week? So they've done some welding for somebody before they knew it. They were like doing welding for someone else, they were doing well with someone else, like, oh, I've got a lot of work here, so they hired somebody fast forward. They've got like a couple of million pound business and, uh, people working for them. Then they're like, how did I get to this stage? Yeah, they had dotted everywhere and the work they're doing is probably in the supply chain of uk infrastructure or the uk defense or this, this, the supply. They've got customers so they're doing something for somebody.

Speaker 2:

So all of these businesses, skills and everything, if they don't have succession, they're going to just kind of fizzle away and we're going to have to learn again. So I'm not saying I'm saving the world or anything, but we want to as we grow, we want to take on these businesses that that we're maybe just going to just fizzle away, um, and can keep them going and hope. Hopefully I'm gonna take on the business. They're not all in their 60s, they know they've. They've took on some other people that maybe took on some trainees, some apprentices, and we can, we can have that continuity for them. So that's as we grow, we want to. We want to take on businesses that help to champion and support british manufacturing. That's what we're, that's what we're doing.

Speaker 1:

I love that. I think that is unbelievable. I can feel the passion there and I think people don't talk about that enough. People don't talk. Still, british manufacturing I love your brand. You've only got to go on your LinkedIn, your website, to see that brand of British manufacturing. Thanks for that. It's so important, though, because website to see that brand of British manufacturing yeah, thanks for that.

Speaker 1:

It is so important, though, because I used to say manufacturing powerhouse in the UK and stuff, but I almost think we're kidding ourselves now because we're getting beaten everywhere and it's so sad because we shouldn't be, because we've got the infrastructure, we've got everything we need to be a powerhouse for manufacturing, and we hopefully will be. But I just think we need to wake up to the real challenges we've got now, because there's not enough people like you doing what you're doing and there's some really good businesses shutting the doors right now, and it's probably been some of the worst few weeks still since COVID, really, I would say to some extent worse, because there was support there at the time to keep businesses open. So this has been almost one of the most depressing few weeks. I've seen a long time manufacturing. It really has, and it's scary isn't it?

Speaker 2:

it is. It is scary, not to say it's all doom and gloom. There's some fantastic investment going on in the uk from from your multinationals, the automotive industry. Up and down the country. They have kind of investing. You've got the hydrogen stuff and the wind farms kicking off in teesside, so that's really good for the, the northeast, so there is some really good stuff going on there.

Speaker 2:

It's, it's and, as you the the gap everyone talks about, the skills gap, and the sort of 30-year period where the uk never really invested in apprenticeships or internships or anything that. And you taught any any business who manufactures or engineers something. They'll tell you the same it's hard to get engineers and what have you. And there you've got kind of the young ones who are sort of in that 20s or what have you, and you've got people who are close out of 40 and then there's there's not much in the in the sort of middle. So you've got people who are close out of 40, and then there's not much in the sort of middle. So you've got that huge age range generation which doesn't really have the hands-on engineering skills.

Speaker 2:

So, yes, all of these places that are shutting the doors and everything like that, you could argue that it's good because people find a way to continue. So place closes. Another business that's more efficient is doing better, can do whatever they were doing more efficiently and better. But you've got all of that skill set, everything that was in there. They'll have archives and drawings and everything that go back so far. That'll just be lost. So I've got no doubt we'll find a way to continue, because we always do. But why make it harder? Why? Why let all of that go away? I was at a um, was at a conference last week and it was. We're talking about the defense and the defense industry are predicting that they're going to end up with an obsolescence issue within the within there and it's I'm not saying it's all of these small businesses closing, that's calling that, but they'll have in their archive somewhere if they have done some work for the defense industry. All of that. Now, that's an extreme example, but you could put that through everything.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, you could 100%. And one of the words you mentioned there is efficiencies, because you look at China and these sort of countries yes, it's cheaper, but they don't have the right now. They might get there, but right now they don't have the same level of efficiency and process that the UK does. And that's where I still think we've got an advantage. I also think that there's an opportunity, because I think, as advanced manufacturing comes more to fruition and you look at all the, the new technology that plays into the new generation hands perfectly, because, okay, that old school engineer trade, you know that that that people want to get into that might be dying out slightly, but it's moving towards technology and kids. Now, you know my little lad is he loves technology, you know he grows up with it and and I think that's the difference so we can capitalize on that market, get them interested. Now that's that's where I think we can make a difference. Now, that's that. That's my optimistic view on the situation.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, and you're absolutely right. Like everything's moved forward. You know, we're not manufacturing stuff now the same way we were 20, 30, 50 years ago, so it has moved forward, which is important that it does that, especially with this new digital generation coming through, as you say. They grew up on iPads and doing whatever. If you can make the workplace like that, it's going to attract them to that industry. You're going to fill the skills gap in a different way. Maybe it's not the traditional way that you have been for the last few years, last decades, but you will find a way. But there is, say, there is businesses out there and it would just be an absolute shame for them just to fizzle away.

Speaker 1:

The challenge, I think, is probably capital. You know, there are people I speak to who go I love to automate, I love to bring all this investment in, but it costs a lot of money. It's a big old justification. And when they get the return for a company like you know the companies that you're working, you know your businesses, which are obviously, you know, small growing businesses how do you balance that out? Because you can't just get a 300 grand machine and you know, and expend a bunch of bucks the same week, is it? It's just not possible. So is that start small and implement what you can within the business process-wise.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So you've definitely got to look at it about what's good for you, what's going to obviously your ROI, what's going to give you the biggest impact, shortest and most cost-effective way For us in the way we do business at the moment, the easiest things for us is around the I don't really know how to phrase it it's around the, the operating systems that we use that can be more automated. So we've got a lot of service engineers and don't don't really want to send them to site with an ipad. So there's a lot of paperwork that comes. So we could be. We could be more efficient and do things with with the paperwork, yeah, and then as soon as you start removing multiple data entries and things like that so it's basic stuff, removing multiple data entries, you're not having somebody type in the same the customer's name or the value three or four times you start getting them efficiency, so the same people can concentrate on other things that are bringing bringing the business or your customer value yeah, yeah, completely agree.

Speaker 1:

someone's like. It's like when you go nhs, isn't it? When you you go to the doctor sometimes and you have to speak five different people and you have to tell the people the same thing and they type in and you just think, how was this little thing? It's crazy, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:

So yeah, and as we grow, we're kind of going through iterations of let's review this because, like the NHS, you kind of get too big and then try and do it because yeah, yeah you know, I don't know who's going to sort that out. Too big, and then you can't.

Speaker 1:

You can't rough it, yeah or not easily yeah, well, you look at covid where suddenly businesses you know even outside manufacturing had to work from home. Big businesses have had no laptops and no protein or that they really suffered versus small business where it's going to hurt a little bit, but we can pivot quite quickly and it's, uh, the same thing, isn't it? The companies need to do it when they're small and making the norm before it's too late yes, yeah.

Speaker 2:

So just just little changes as you as you go, a little tweaks as you go, rather than big ones, because they're costly and it's kind of a shock to everybody's system.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I'm just saying this you know all this um, what you're doing now is amazing, but I also imagine a lot of work and a lot, a lot of late nights and early mornings. How do you and jonathan sort of manage your stress in your own mindset through periods like this? And I imagine different periods call for different actions yeah, so it's there's.

Speaker 2:

There's no one easy answer to that. You've just got to as as you've got to start to recognize the triggers within yourself. So if you're starting to get a little burned out or a little exhausted or whatever, whatever them trigger signs or things might be to you, maybe you start to get a little bit more irritable or you have brain fog or whatever it is that starts to affect your performance. You've just got to be honest with yourself and each other about oh no, I'm just going to take a couple of days off. Yes, okay, it's probably the worst timing. It'll be an audit season and there'll be some crazy stuff going on and like, no, you kind of take them two days off, but it's fine, everything keeps going. You have to a couple of days off, sort yourself out, relax a bit and then come back at it, rather than what.

Speaker 2:

We've never got to this stage, but we're conscious that we don't end up pushing ourselves too far then you end up having a couple of months off. Yeah, that's what we're trying to avoid. So it's you just just kind of breaks as we need them. That's how. That's how we've been going so far. Yeah, we've built a really good team, so they've taken a lot of it as well nice.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, you know what. It's refreshing to hear that, because I think if you'd asked a hundred people this 34 years ago, I dare say they'd have gone just part of the gig. You have to get on with it. Where do you know what I mean? I think they would, and I don't think it should be part of the gig because you mentioned there. The end result, unfortunately, is, you know, clear burnout and and everyone then feels that stress, don't they something's that?

Speaker 2:

yeah, yeah, if I think people call for a couple of if you're not around for a couple of days, that'll be absolutely fine, but if you've got to take a few weeks off or a few months off, they're going to notice that impact yeah, and I think the team know when you're stressed, well, don't you?

Speaker 1:

and I think they know, if you're not making, you're not on it, you're not making the right decisions. So so I agree a couple of days off to you know, one step back, two forward, isn't?

Speaker 2:

it. We again. We don't always get this right, but we're trying to emphasise to the team no, take time off, leave your work phone at work, go on holiday. We're not going to ring you unless the place is on fire, like will figure it out. You're on your way a week, we'll figure it out. So we really encourage our staff to do that. So it's kind of important we do it as well. Yeah, just to show that I want to think you can do it, I can do it yeah, yeah, it's not a badge of honor, is it to uh?

Speaker 1:

yeah, to sweat it all day, all night nah, you're not helping anybody.

Speaker 2:

You know if you're. If your physical, mental health or whatever starts to deteriorate, your home life will probably start to fall apart, and then the snowball and the knock-on effect to that is just a downward spiral which is hard to stop.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, completely agree. Yeah, and just finally, what's the plans the next 12 months for the group, then what's happening? So we're of 12 months for the group, then what's happening.

Speaker 2:

So we're still trying to stabilize stuff, so we're sorting internal things out before we get back at the acquisitions. Keep saying that Unless one falls in my lap or it's a perfect opportunity or something, then I'll maybe just look at it, but we want to do a factory move next year. I'll have you look at it, but we want to do it. We want to do a factory move next year. That'll be a big step for us. Get in one place, get a couple of the businesses in one place, stabilize things. Some beautiful growth opportunities will come out of that for new products, new services that we can deliver will come out of that. Efficiencies that will come out of that. We'll have ourselves a nice little headquarters and then 26, we can get back at the acquisitions and all of that good stuff.

Speaker 1:

Excellent, and what's the best for people who either want to talk to you about their business or want to work as part of your group? What's the best way to contact you? Linkedin.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, like yeah, linkedin or yeah.

Speaker 1:

LinkedIn. Absolutely, just drop us a message on LinkedIn and we can take it from there. Well, I want to thank you. It's been fascinating actually because, um, you know, my knowledge of the acquisition world is is non-existent and, uh, you know, I've learned loads today, and I think people as well, because one of those things where I think most business owners being clear, just just getting read down and and try and build a business and suddenly look up, it's been 10 years and you go, okay, right, what, what, what next? But you know the things you've you've spoken really well about today in terms of actually how you grow a business which is has some sale value, and you know the important things you look for.

Speaker 1:

Um, it's just been fascinating. But also I love what you're doing the champion british manufacturing because I just don't see enough of it. You know, I think the more people that do that, the better this industry is going to be. Um, you know, I'm proud to work in it, you know, because there's people like you and it's similar as that. So, um, yeah, thank you, pete, it's been, it's been great cheers for having us on, mark.

Speaker 1:

Thank you thanks, mate, that was class. Love that you enjoyed it can I relax now?