Manufacturing Leaders

John Fitzgerald: Leading the Charge in Renewable Energy Innovation and Superconductor Technology

• Mark Bracknall • Season 9 • Episode 9

Share episode

Send us a text

Get ready to meet John Fitzgerald, the visionary CEO of Supernode, as he shares his insights on how superconducting technology is becoming a game changer in the fight against climate change. This episode promises to lift the curtain on the cutting-edge developments that are redefining the energy landscape. From Supernode’s strategic move to establish a factory in Belize to the creation of the East-West Interconnector, John discusses how these initiatives are transforming electricity trade and addressing the ever-growing demand for renewable energy.

As we journey through the intricacies of the superconducting industry, expect to uncover the immense potential of superconductors in revolutionizing power grids. The SHINE project, set to blaze trails at the National Grid's Innovation Centre in Deeside, serves as a testament to what superconductors can achieve in urban and national energy distribution. John candidly dispels myths about superconductivity, illustrating its status as a mature technology ready to tackle the challenges of aging infrastructure and urban congestion.

With an eye on the future, we explore the workforce dynamics necessary to sustain this evolving industry and the collaborative efforts needed with utilities to pilot groundbreaking projects. Listen closely as John highlights the role of partnerships and innovation in maintaining and expanding vital infrastructure, and the pivotal opportunities for regions like the UK to lead this transformative change. Whether you're passionate about sustainability or curious about the next leap in electrification, this episode is full of insights that are not to be missed.

Please subscribe to the channel for more content! Theo James are a Manufacturing & Engineering Recruiter based in the North East, helping Manufacturing and Engineering firms grow across the UK. Please call us on 0191 5111 298

Speaker 1:

Hello and welcome to an episode of the Manufacturing Leaders Podcast with me Mark Bracknell, marketing Director of Theo James Recruitment. In today's episode, we welcomed on John Fitzgerald, the CEO of Supernode, a business based in Dublin but building a brand new factory in Belize, in the Northeast. This was a real fascinating episode where I learned a lot and you will as well about the superconducting industry. So we talked in detail about exactly what that was, how that is linked to climate change, why the business was set up the first place to tackle some real serious issues behind that and decarbonization, and we talk in detail about the risks of not acting now and people not making a stand and making a real difference with this. And it was real serious, interesting stuff that we talk about. We debunk some myths. We talk about the UK industry as a whole and actually the opportunity the UK has right now over countries like China, and we debunk some myths around it as well. So this is a real fascinating episode where you're going to learn something new. You're definitely going to learn something new about a very interesting topic which is definitely going to be crucial if we're going to meet the demands we need to meet.

Speaker 1:

So thank you, john, for educating me and educating everyone else today on this episode. Please sit back and watch or listen, whatever you want to do, and, as ever, please, please, just click that like and subscribe button now. It really, really helps grow the channel um and get fantastic guests on, like john today. So thank you very much. I hope you enjoy the episode. Massive warm welcome today to john vicherald, the ceo of supernode, based in dublin but actually building a site in the uh, the northeast, in blyth, and I'm fascinated to talk through all that. But firstly, welcome John. How are you?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, quite good, mark. How are you keeping?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, very good, I'm looking forward this one. This one is going to be something which is going to test me. It's, you know, some real interesting stuff that I don't know a great deal about, which I always find fascinating, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna learn, just like everyone else today, which is great and really, really important stuff for manufacturing. Before I do that, I ask everyone the same question when they first come on, which is what does it mean to you, john, to be a leader? Would you say?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, well, I'm around a while now, so I've worked under a few different styles and types of leadership. I'm around a while now, so I've worked under a few different styles and types of leadership, and I guess the first thing is there's a vision or mission somewhere where you want to go, and then it's having followers and inspiring them and empowering them to bring you there, and that's the game. That's what leadership means to me.

Speaker 1:

I'm hearing more and more now about the vision piece and I think it's great and I think you need to tie people into it. But I don't think I used to hear that much about vision and strategy, unless I were just blind to it. But do you think that is? Do you think companies are now looking more into that vision piece, or what's your thoughts on that?

Speaker 2:

a little bit. I don't really like. We're a startup, so super is a tech startup to deliver technology for a decarbonized world. So it's quite a powerful vision and that we have and our mission is to deliver the next generation of you know technology, technology for that. So it's quite empowering, I'd say most businesses it's just turn of profit and there are different levels of vision in different companies. I'd say we're at the higher end of the vision spectrum, if you like, in terms of importance to the business because we're a startup. We don't have pre-revenue.

Speaker 1:

And I actually think there's a lesson there already, because I've had this conversation quite a few times this year about companies who are dealing with sustainability and the desire and actually probably I'll go further than that a demand now for the new generation to want to work for companies who are ethically moving in the right direction, doing the right things, but actually have a purpose to it, and I don't think that used to be the case. I think that the job for life was a stable company that's going to pay the wages for X amount. Now the new generation, in my opinion, want to work for companies who are doing something like you. Have you found that people are joining you because of that?

Speaker 2:

Well, a particular type are. I guess it depends on what motivates you, and a lot of the people who are attracted to companies like Supernode are people who you know want to be challenged and you know welcome and are happier being challenged. And there are plenty of jobs in Ireland, for instance, with pretty much full employment. So if you want a job where you're not so challenged, you can stay in your lane challenged and you can stay in your lane, and I like to think of it as um comfortable and miserableness. So here it's challenged.

Speaker 1:

Happiness yeah yeah, I like it now. I like it a lot. Um, let's, um, let's understand and learn a little bit more about the business and and what it does. Please on, if that's okay, because I want to educate people on the you, to educate people, not me, on the sort of technology behind it. So you've you've obviously briefly touched on supernova, what they do, what is the technology, and how would you explain it to someone who doesn't perhaps understand that world?

Speaker 2:

well, I, I'd start with the vision. So the vision is that, uh, everyone should have access to secure, affordable and renewable energy. So it's all about decarbonizing and enabling that transition away from fossil fuels. That's pretty much why we exist. And then you kind of dig into it a bit and say, ok, that's fine, that's a vision. So what do you do? Well, we look at the market and we say what are the barriers and where are the opportunities? Because it's a two-sided coin. Where are the opportunities? And we see the grid as being the big enabler of decarbonization, but also the single biggest constraining factor is the grid. Constraining factor is the grid. So our technology, our tech play is developing better grid technology that can be deployed quickly underground small spaces and that can be done at scale and pace so that we can transition away from fossil fuels without having too much large infrastructure pylons, you know, all over the place and we can have a seamless transition away from fossil fuels, if you like.

Speaker 1:

And how much of an impact does that, if that works and I'm sure it will do have on the climate If this becomes the norm? What do you say?

Speaker 2:

Huge, massive.

Speaker 2:

So if you look at the UK, it was probably the first major economy to develop coal resources and have an industrial revolution, and now it's one of the first major developed economies to move away from coal-fired generation. So there's been a huge transition already. If you think about fossil fuels and how many of them come from outside our borders here in Europe, all that wealth transfer outside our economies doesn, you know, doesn't create too many jobs in our economies. So if you have, you know, good quality jobs developing renewable technologies, generation, offshore, onshore solar. You know all the electrification projects, heat pumps and all of that which are good, high quality jobs that can be delivered within the economy with electrification. And then you look at the benefits on the social side in terms of reduced carbon emissions associated and decoupling carbon emissions from economic development, coupling carbon emissions from economic development. That's huge and that's needed if we're going to hit our Paris 2012 targets. So I think there's a real opportunity to address the challenge of our times, which is climate change, but also to enrich our economies while we do so.

Speaker 1:

What's the risk, in your opinion, of this not working? If this didn't work, what's the risk, would you say?

Speaker 2:

Are you talking about supernode technology specifically, or the transition, the transition? Yeah, yeah, the transition, yeah, the risks are significant.

Speaker 2:

And there's a lot of vested interests, companies whose business models are entirely predicated upon the carbon economy and they are. They have deep pockets and they have been busy at COP and they have been busy at policy level level trying to avoid becoming stranded and to continue making lots of money out of fossil fuels. And if we continue to do that, we're going to see like there are people better qualified than I to tell us what happens if we have two, three degree increase on pre-industrial level temperatures we're talking about, you know.

Speaker 1:

Scary stuff.

Speaker 2:

Scary stuff, scary stuff. It's apocalyptic at this stage, and we see that we're feeling it already.

Speaker 2:

It's like 10 years ago it was tomorrow, but today it is. Today, it's happening. It's happening all around us Weather events, spain, it mightn't happen in Ireland or in the UK this year, but within a year or two we'll have a major weather event and we'll be saying that's terrible, and what do we do about it? I guess the immediacy of it is a challenge. So it is quite scary. What will happen if we don't do it? I think it's a very bad outcome. The sooner we do it, the easier it will be on ourselves.

Speaker 1:

It is scary stuff and I think probably generation I don't know I think new generation is different. I think generations before them, including myself in it there's a mentality of I think there was almost of this people trying to scare me under this, and that there's the change of weather, people's go always, you know it's because of climate change and and people never really got it. And I think I feel like things are starting to turn now where people are actually taking things seriously and, and quite rightly, getting quite concerned by what could happen, because I've got young kids and it might not affect me my lifetime, but it it will definitely affect them and their kids, and I think that's the difference, isn't it?

Speaker 2:

it's that generation yeah, it's, um, yeah, it's, it's. It's a yeah, it's it's. A social responsibility thing is to try and leave things at least as good as you found them, if not better, and there's no reason why we can't continue to enjoy a pretty privileged lifestyle like we do in these parts of the world, while at the same time respecting Mother Nature, I guess is probably the best way to put it. Like there are, like you can decouple uh economic growth from, uh the consumption of materials. It's, it's, it's, it's. You can do it. We have the technologies, um, it just takes a bit of effort, you know I think what you're doing is fantastic.

Speaker 1:

Um, so you know. Thank you for that. It's very important what needs to happen, or who needs to be convinced, if you like, to get this work. Is it the average person, is it business owners, is it government or a bit of a mix? You know what needs to happen for this sort of thing to be the norm now.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, well, I guess it's, it's mixed, it's everybody, it's it's, it's the, it's you and me, and it's, uh, the politicians we vote for, and it's the it's the governments that are made up by those politicians. So it's the whole, the whole shooting match. I think the uk has to be said. The uk is probably one of the the um the best exemplars of how to start decarbonizing and they have, you know, good plans and you know, I think they compare favorably with others in terms of being in a leadership position to decarbonize. You've got the National Grid looking at a project to transform the National grid and to double its capacity to move electricity around, and I think it's called the Great Grid Upgrade and that's really positive and that's the right place to be at and to be tackling those issues. And you've got huge strides made in the North Sea with the deployment of offshore renewables and it's more of that, it's more of that, and I think the UK is probably one of the leading proponents of decarbonisation. I would say.

Speaker 1:

Right good. Is it a case of government needs more capital and support, or is it a case of getting stricter on people and companies to meet certain requirements by a certain amount of time, would you say?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I want to be careful because I'm not primarily a climate change advocacy person, I'm more of a tech development person so yeah I've got to be careful or I'll end up talking about the climate piece all the time, I think.

Speaker 2:

I think it's. It's it's like if there are incentives to put up solar panels and the cost of solar panels falls by 50 percent, then does the incentive fall away. And that's typically what happens is government don't want to give people the solar panels too cheap. But I actually think the incentive should stay just as strong even though the price is falling, and let's have more of it.

Speaker 2:

I think everybody who has an electric car shouldn't be worried about its resale value and I think the people with diesel and petrol cars. They should be pretty much told, regardless of what happens in world markets. These prices are going north and they're going north fast because it's a no-brainer to get electric cars if you've got an abundance of electricity. And I think the small signals you need very strong signals to transition away from in transport, which is probably a good example from carbon and fossil fuels. You need strong signals. So I think electrification of the of the car fleet and strong signals to consumers to make the cars more affordable, not just for the the rich. They should be available for everybody. You should have a resale value. It should be networks built out and it's a no regret situation and it would help greatly with emissions. So stuff like that could be done in nearly every country in Europe.

Speaker 1:

Yeah yeah, it's good advice and this is. You know, people like yourself you know to be talking about this sort of stuff. It's really important because I think a lot of people need to listen. Let's talk about the tech. Let's talk about the company. Why did the journey start? What sort of brought you to where you are now as Supernode?

Speaker 2:

I want to talk about the early part. Yeah well, there's lots of early parts of my stage in life and I started off working in a in a control room and keeping the lights on and forecasts and demand and making sure people had electricity when they needed it. And then from there I went on to developing power stations, interconnectors, overhead transmission lines and connecting data centers and interconnectors to countries. Like the first one significant was the East-West Interconnector, which was from near Dublin to just Deeside near Liverpool, and that was quite a significant piece of equipment connected to markets for the first time, put downward pressure on prices in Ireland and allowed trade. That didn't happen before so effectively. You could see the benefits very quickly in Ireland, the smaller country, and it was delivered phenomenal value, reduced prices by about 14% in its first full year of operation, and also it allowed the renewable sector to grow a bit quicker, so it facilitated the growth in renewables. So you can see there that giving electrons a passport is a big deal. And beforehand it's hard to believe that we didn't trade directly electricity between Ireland and the UK. We didn't have a direct link before that and if you think about how efficient it is to move electricity between countries. We don't have enough infrastructure, and electricity and electrons, up until very recently, have been a national commodity, not an international commodity.

Speaker 2:

But if you're going to rely on renewables, mark, they're not dispatchable. The wind blows a lot of the time, but not all the time. The sun shines half the time, if you're lucky, in particular parts of the world. So you need, so you need a total solution that will enable security of supply with 99.9% security of supply without fossil fuels. So you need more wires, you need more batteries, you need more renewables, some nuclear, and you can do it. It's doable, it's eminently doable, but you do need that infrastructure.

Speaker 2:

So that infrastructure is hard to build, it takes time and there's not a. It's doable, it's eminently doable, but you do need that infrastructure. So that infrastructure is hard to build, takes time and there's not a lot of it around. So if you're going to get rid of all your oil and gas supply lines, you're going to need more electricity interconnectors to trade electricity in its place and bring it to where the people want the energy which is in your cities and your towns and factories and so on.

Speaker 2:

So Supernode looked at that and saw an issue with the ability of the toolbox that the utilities had in terms of if you have a problem, if you're in Leeds and you want more electricity for a data center or you want to build a new renewable plant, then you know how do they deliver that and the tools available um, they're okay. But if you want to double or triple the amount of power you move around because people are driving electric cars and using heat pumps and more data centers and so on then you those tools are going to struggle. At the moment, about 25% of energy is in the form of electricity and to decarbonize that needs to become north of 75% and probably closer to 90%.

Speaker 2:

So that's probably three times more electricity as our final source of energy as opposed to gas or any other form of energy, and that means we need better solutions to move more power from A to B. Mark and superconductors can do that.

Speaker 2:

In fact, a superconductor can move five to 10 times more power than a conventional, so it's it's an ideal tool for the utilities to enable them to make the transition yeah, it's amazing motivation to get into them and that's why we've been developing them and we now have a full-scale prototype in the uk being assembled in Blythe actually, which is a fantastic location for us. We've opened a facility there earlier this year and it's where we assemble our latest prototype and it will be capable of doing five to ten times what a traditional cable of comparable voltage could do, which means you can have a cable in your road, as opposed to huge infrastructure and substations and maybe even overhead lines, which are contentious and difficult to build, because people don't really want to welcome overheads, bulky infrastructure, into their communities because they're not the prettiest, let's be honest.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I mean, this could be massive, couldn't it? You know you're talking cat's eye sort of size, yeah, Well, it certainly could.

Speaker 2:

I like I don't. I think I want to be very clear. I think copper and and aluminium a are conductors that have served us for 100 years and they'll continue to service, and this isn't going to replace them. What it's going to do is it's going to augment them, it's going to add to them and it's going to give the utilities, the distribution network operators, the national grids of the world. It's going to give them the capability to deliver more capacity quickly to keep pace with the pace of building out renewable wind farms and building out data centers.

Speaker 2:

At the moment, the queues and the backlogs that system operators have and utilities have around the world are incredible. There's gigawatts of demand and generation in queues trying to get access to the grid and the grid isn't big enough and that is a huge issue and it's costing a lot of money for consumers. So if you've got a few gigawatts of wind turned down because there's nowhere, no network for it to accommodate it, that's money that consumers have paid and they can't realize the benefits of that, of that investment. So that's and that's a big issue everywhere, so we can help build our grid and that's what we aim to do yeah, excellent.

Speaker 1:

And why? Why blithe, would you say in terms you know, I know there's a lot happening there, but, um, I imagine you know there's various places you could have put the factory. What was the the thought process behind that?

Speaker 2:

Three reasons. Number one it's a can-do part of the country in terms of. There's a great tradition of industry there, but also the offshore renewable energy catapult is located there. But also the offshore renewable energy catapult is located there A number of so we can do our testing of our full-scale prototype in the phenomenal facilities that they have available there.

Speaker 1:

Amazing yeah.

Speaker 2:

Secondly, there's the supply chain. So a good bit of the supply chain where we put together our prototypes is based in the UK. So we have partners in Southampton and Leicester, so we actually make a good bit of the prototype in the UK, so it makes sense to assemble it there and test it there. So it was an easy sell. And, lastly, it's just the language. So we're all English speakers so it's easy for us to do business and the lads like going over to the UK and spending time and we've got. You know, we've had a tremendous welcome there and we're so pleased to be located in Blyth and delivering on our mandate there.

Speaker 1:

Apologies for interrupting this podcast with a very quick 30 second description of my business. Theo James are an engineering and manufacturing recruitment search firm based in Durham. We specialize in contracts and permanent opportunities from blue collar semi-skilled roles right the way up to c-suite level exec positions. If you're looking for any new, additional staff or new opportunity for yourself in the industry, please contact me or the team. There'll be a specialist in your area waiting to help. I'm incredibly proud of this business and what we've built since our inception in 2015. And I would love to extend that service out to you. So thank you very much. Hope you enjoy the episode.

Speaker 2:

So I'm really happy about it.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I was going to ask you that how the sort of local community have welcomed you, because you're absolutely right. Now there's so much heritage and history up in Northumberland and I don't think, well, if you're from the North East, I don't think you really understand it until you experience it. And it's such a community, family feel. Have you felt that when you've been there? Because it's different.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely.

Speaker 2:

No, it's been really good and you know we've neighbours, jdr, and we've been to visit them and also we've been into the Catapult Centre to see their labs. They have the high-voltage labs and we've tested our. We've got three rounds of testing this year in their labs and we found it really good, really positive, and we're delighted with the UK experience and we also work with some of the universities, mainly Strathclyde University as well. So there's a lot of linkages we've developed over the years in the UK and I just want to add to that is the fact that the UK is so serious about upgrading their grid. So we're hoping to have some good conversations and we've started some with some of the major utilities in the UK and what we'd love to do is to not only test our prototypes.

Speaker 2:

We'll do a full-scale test down in Deeside in National Grids Innovation Centre in Deeside next summer, where we run a cable at much higher current than is possible with conventional, just to demonstrate the technology. That will be called the SHINE project, and that's an acronym for Superconducting, high Current Innovation for Network Enhancement. So it's pretty much a short way of saying what we're about, and after that we'd like to do a demonstration project with pilot with one of the utilities in the uk. So not only would we like to demonstrate it, we'd like to pilot it and put it into the system somewhere in the uk. And because there's a big need and we need to try that somewhere and to grow confidence in it, because we need something that's eminently reliable.

Speaker 1:

And obviously reliability is very important. The cost, I imagine, will be very important to businesses. Is it something that could be quite cost effective in that regard as well, or is it balanced between the two? Yeah, that's an excellent question.

Speaker 2:

So the cables. Effectively what you're doing is you're keeping a superconductor that can convey five to ten times the current of equivalent copper, keeping it at minus 200 Celsius in liquid nitrogen. So you pipe and pipe technology and we've developed patented technology to do that cheaper than anybody else. But I'm not going to tell you that it's cheaper than a copper and aluminium cable. It's not. Where it is cheaper is when you're looking at a token solution. So if you've got to connect two parts of I mentioned Leeds earlier. I've never been in Leeds City. I've been in Leeds Airport a few times.

Speaker 2:

But if you're somewhere like Leeds and you need to move power across the city, and you need to move so much power that you have to build new substations, transformers and you have to buy some real estate and it causes a lot of, let's say, issues for local communities and businesses, it might become something that you can't even do.

Speaker 2:

Well, a superconductor could possibly do that project at a fraction of the voltage with the existing right-of-way and way-leave without the substations. So the cable itself will be much more expensive, but the overall solution can be much cheaper and much more expensive, but the overall solution can be much cheaper and much more effective. So urban congestion is a real use case for pinch points, a real use case for superconductors, where the cable will be more expensive but the overall solution won't be. And then you get into bigger grids. If the national grid want to upgrade the system and put in three plus gigawatt links to move power north to south and east to west, as the case may be at that level, which is more than any city would need, but it's what needs to be transported around the country, then the superconductor will be cheaper than a, than a copper aluminium solution, except for overhead. Overhead lines are always cheaper. I wouldn't claim to be cheaper than an overhead line, but I haven't ever met anyone who built one because they haven't been built in about 30 years. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:

Very hard to build. I think they did one in Scotland about 10 years ago and built in about 30 years. Yeah, yeah, it's very hard to build. I think they did one in Scotland about 10 years ago and it took about 20 years and it was not in a very populous area. They're very difficult to build anywhere in Europe, for sure. Yeah, so the grid we have today in most of Europe and in the UK was built in the 1950s 60s. You know. There hasn't been much grid built since then.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, fair point, I could stand corrected.

Speaker 2:

There might be one or two in the 80s, but it's been pretty much a fixed asset that's just been upgraded and maintained.

Speaker 1:

It's fascinating. It's fascinating because these are things that you know. Who could tell you how many overheads that they've seen and the way it works? You can't. You don't notice these things, do you? But it's fascinating.

Speaker 2:

I spent about six years developing overhead lines and the ones that exist already. No problem, you try and put one where there isn't one already. That is very difficult.

Speaker 1:

It's fascinating that because what you've seen there as well, you've seen the other side, so you've seen that obviously you've seen the challenge and essentially you now got the solution, which is a perfect business model, isn't it? Because I think you need to understand what the challenge is before you start to build a solution.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and what attracts us to the UK and what I like about the market there is that government and utilities are acknowledging the challenge and planning for it. In a lot of other countries they've got their head in the sand, you know.

Speaker 1:

How about you know? Manufacturing obviously is the core. People listening to this. Everyone talks about China. Obviously Is that completely different in terms of companies like that that can do things typically cheaper and faster. Is that not on their agenda?

Speaker 2:

I'll try and unpack that. So, in terms of jobs, what does this mean? The transition. If you think about all the money that is spent on fossil fuels, if you're investing that in supply chains that have a local footprint, that's local jobs, that's a lot more money goes into the infrastructure to deliver it and the fuel is free. So it's a different model and you think about it differently. But I've been to places like Wick in the north of Scotland. But I've been to places like Wick in the north of Scotland and I've visited. Five or six years ago I visited a large wind farm up there and the town was literally transformed by the jobs Not a huge number of jobs, but you're talking about a remote community and there were high quality jobs associated with the Beatrice Wind Farm. The upgrade, I think it was an SSE project, but the Beatrice Wind Farm.

Speaker 2:

There were a number of high quality jobs in a place where the fishing community had been decimated because herrings had been fished out years ago from the North Sea. So you can see positive stuff there and that's an instance of it and that can be replicated and has been replicated and can continue to be replicated. But also cable technology there's a record amount of cable technology companies setting up in the UK. They'll all have jobs and the whole electrification project be it people, marketing, selling, installing, maintaining heat pumps, electric vehicles, infrastructure there is a whole electrification economy that needs to be developed, explored, and it's an indigenous one, you know. It's one where the jobs can be local, not all of the supply chain, but certainly key parts of it you can focus on and it's the early movers will get them.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's fascinating. Where do you? If you look at the semiconductor industry, where do you see it realistically? What's your prediction for 10 years time from now? Where do you see it realistically? What's your prediction for 10 years' time from now? What do you see it looking like?

Speaker 2:

Well, the superconducting industry 10 years from now, I think there'll be more customers than an ability of the industry to service those customers, because I think there'll be a large project. There'll probably in Germany'd be a large project and they're probably. In Germany there's a large project which everybody's watching called the superlink project and NKT and some others are developing that project. I want to give it a call out. It's a very important project and I expect the the Chinese will look at that and say we have to do one of them really quickly because we want to be leaders in that technology. You'll see them popping up in other areas and it's about being able to gear up to supply them. So I do think it will grow significantly in the next 10 years, for sure, in the next 10 years for sure. And then it's a question of if the ambition of utilities and governments continues to grow and their confidence grows in electrification, then there's going to be big backbone circuits.

Speaker 2:

You know I talk about 3 gigawatt links. It'll move away from urban congestion to being bulk power transfer over long distance and that becomes the game. And that's probably 10 years away from now. So I see it kind of developing in scale, because a superconductor unless you have some constraint, a pinch point, a real estate issue or whatever their benefits. They really become cheaper when you move into the gigawatt territory. So if you can move a lot of power it becomes twice as cheap doing with a superconductor. So that's when it will really take off in its own right. And you're talking big grids in the us and in Europe and in the UK right across the piece. You're talking about big backbone infrastructure and that's that's a bit of a leap and a hop. Now some people would say well, I think if we do the urban congestion thing and people get comfortable with the technology and it's even, it's even easier to do the the distance stuff. It's easier than that. Ironically, it's an easier technology to deliver Really.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it is, it's simpler.

Speaker 2:

Dc is simpler. It's just plus and minus as opposed to 50 hertz moving around. So fewer cables, fewer conductors. It's an easier cable story for sure, yeah.

Speaker 1:

What about the workforce? What would you say if you look at maybe Blythe as an example or just as work for this type of market expanding? You know the UK's got a bit of a war on talent now and there's still a bit of a skill shortage, succession planning issues, loads of people leaving the industry and not enough people getting trained. What type of workforce does this need to be? Is it a very technical, educated academia or is it more hands-on tech? What are your thoughts on that?

Speaker 2:

Well, it depends on where you're at. There'll always be product development, research and development, high-end jobs. Then you've got your manufacturing jobs, which are good jobs like traditional cable factories. Full-scale factory maybe producing 400 kilometers of cable a year, might have something like I don't know 50 people, typical industrial processes, extrusion, wrapping, quality control, safety, all the stuff that you'd associate with a cable factory similar footprint. So it'd be like a traditional cable factory. It would look the same on the outside but it would be different on the inside. And I think then you've got your project delivery and so on. So in and of itself, you're talking hundreds of jobs, but in terms of what it enables, in terms of downstream and upstream, in terms of renewable generation and cost of electricity, ability to deliver and to satisfy the queues that exist at the door of every utility, I don't know if people appreciate that most utilities have a backlog of requests for connection. No, they don't?

Speaker 1:

They're called the connection queues.

Speaker 2:

They're gigawatts. In the US there's lots of them. There's actually almost an industry to process the, to process the kill. Really crazy, isn't it?

Speaker 1:

there's been huge management innovation ah yeah, this is a world you just take for granted, isn't it you? Just, you switch your license, which you call. You just expect things to work, don't you?

Speaker 2:

and you certainly do. And and um, there's, um, it's everything. There's a lot more goes under the bonnet of a PC or a car than most hunters appreciate, because they just want to send an email or check something, google something or whatever. Yeah, there's a lot to be done, but it's all doable. We've just become very reliant on a smooth running machine that keeps the lights on 24, seven and the only and it's not a trivial issue, but it is it runs in carbon.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, are there any? I've had a few people on the podcast before about, specifically about, you know, ev, automotive and that, and I always ask this question in case there is. Are there any myths that you've heard or people think of that you want to debunk Common sort of misconceptions, would you say, about the industry?

Speaker 2:

About superconductivity.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, I think there is. It's been placed in an exotic bus bucket Like fusion. Nuclear fusion, I'm told, has been 20 years away for the last 40 years, so nobody's got it to work commercially. And it's nearly there and AI might help and lots of projects and it's a really promising. If it works, it's phenomenal, but it's it's still not working. Superconductivity works and has been working for 20 years. Anybody who's had an MRI has relied on a superconductor. They work 24-7. They're a fantastic technology. They're technically mature. So the technology is mature. It's keeping the lights on in loads of cities Relatively not much of what it is working in maybe a dozen cities in the world. There's projects in asia, in america and europe, and and there will be more. So this is not. I'd like to debunk the myth that this is a technology for the day after tomorrow. This is a technology for today and tomorrow, not the day after.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and have you got a message to anyone at all? Who's listening? This could be anyone. It could be the average person driving a ICE car, it could be someone going to the government or whatever. Any messages you want to give to anyone listening, would you say that you think will be important?

Speaker 2:

I haven't thought about that, but I think it's um. It is possible to decarbonize um without screwing up our economy.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah I like it.

Speaker 2:

We can. We can enhance, even improve the economy if we do it um properly, and I think we just need to um. We're at a stage now where china is decarbonizing at a faster rate than anybody else. Probably I don't know that definitively, but it's a sense I have. They are, they're going for it and they're doing it because they're they it, because they're open to doing whatever it takes and they're not wedded. And maybe it's because they don't have huge oil and gas reserves, but they're doing it without shedding much of a tear for the fossil fuel industry. Yeah, and tear for the fossil fuel industry.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

And I think, the fossil fuel industry. They're powerful, they have deep pockets and I think we need to be mindful that they could derail us by running us down some blind alleyways. And that's happened already with carbon capture and storage and hydrogen, I think, the hydrogen economy. There's questions over how economic that can be. So if you want an efficient transition that's effective, electricity is your best bet Efficiency and electricity, and I'm a big believer in electrification to decarbonize and I would say, invest in that. So you can see people already Mark the fuel cell car. I don't know anyone buying a fuel cell car. I know lots of people with electric cars and the reason is because the efficiencies are just so much better, the costs are so much better, the lifetime of the battery, everything is better than a fuel cell. The same is true of um hydrogen vehicles. Again, I I just think you got to do the basics, do the analysis, and electrification comes up as the best answer in in almost every circumstance I agree.

Speaker 1:

I'm three and a half years, three and a half years into my electric car now and I'm going to touch wood here, but so far not an ounce of bother. And uh you, I don't know anyone that's ever purchased an electric car, then gone back to a non-electric.

Speaker 2:

It just doesn't happen and mark, if you think about it if that one of the big concerns. I've got an electric car too and I'm on my second, but you kind of worry about resale value and the battery technology move on.

Speaker 2:

And I think if there was more certainty about the resale value, more people and the cost was lower, more people would transition and then you hear people saying we're gonna put up um, we're gonna put up barriers and charge more for chinese cars to protect the european car industry and you're going to go home. So it's going to stay expensive to buy an electric car and we're not going to transition away from fossil fuels. You know, I think they need to have their car out on the stick. They need to basically promote electric cars, hammer fossil fuel cars, but give people the alternative. Like, don't make if electric cars hammer fossil fuel cars, but give people the alternative.

Speaker 2:

If electric cars are expensive and you hammer fossil fuels, then people have nowhere to go. They can't afford an electric and they can't afford a fossil fuel because the cost is too high. So you've got to give people alternatives and I think too many in the past that hasn't always been the case and watch out for those, the fossil fuel industry. I think they have a different agenda. It's not. It's not decarbonising, it's not necessarily even the overall economy.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's a real risk, I agree, because there's a massive percentage of people who just want to get to A to B and don't care how they get there, and that's the concern. They don't want to pay X amount to let you car. So it's trying to capitalize on that market to make that much more accessible and affordable.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so our superconducting products will be able to move power at half the cost, at bulk power, you know, big power at half the cost of traditional cable systems.

Speaker 2:

They can be deployed without, you know, causing minimal disruption and having a smaller footprint, and they can move energy efficiently. People don't want current, they don't want voltage, they want energy. They want it where and when they need it. That's a huge challenge for utilities and we hope to work with utilities to give them something in their toolbox so that they can actually meet the needs of their customers into the future. And that's a big challenge for them and we need to try that and pilot it with them in the coming years so that in five years' time if they have a critical need, they know they can reach into that toolbox and the superconductor is there, if that's the appropriate answer and in many cases it will be- 100%.

Speaker 1:

And just finally, John, what's the next 12 to 18 months looking like for Supernova? Then I imagine loads of change and exciting stuff well.

Speaker 2:

Well, firstly, we were um, we're working um with green giraffe on the funding process because we want to bring in some more money to to fund our continued expansion and development, particularly development, and we're doing the Shine project in the National Grid Innovation Center in the summertime. We're having discussions with a number of utilities and some cable companies around potential projects and we need to get the right projects if you like, goldilocks project so we can invest in piloting our technology in a use case that has upside for utilities, but probably not too much downside because they need to be 99.9% reliable. And so we will search and hopefully co-create a project with a utility because they know where the use cases are, they know where the best use cases are. So we're just looking for those opportunities and that's what the next few years looks like. And then, once we have that traction and proof, it's into building out manufacturing capacity or licensing the technology to someone else who will do that and try and realize a return for our investors, who've been very supportive of us with what is pretty interesting.

Speaker 2:

But this is not software, this is hard infrastructure development which takes a lot of guts to do. I have to say it takes a lot of guts to do. You know, I have to say it takes a lot of guts to do innovation and infrastructure. So that's what the next few years look like. So we'll give it our all and we look forward to, you know, meeting our milestones and satisfying some customers in the future.

Speaker 1:

Excellent and I want to thank you, john. This has been really fascinating this. It wasn't something I had hardly any real knowledge about the industry, which is why I wanted to do it, because, let's say, a thousand people listening to this, that's potentially a thousand people that now know a lot more about it, and actually it's not only exciting, it's important, it's crucial into this.

Speaker 2:

That's potentially a thousand people that now know a lot more about it and and actually it's not only exciting, it's important, it's crucial so one thing, james, I should probably do before I go, and it's differentiate supernote from every other cable and superconducting cable companies, because there are several others who are established and sell products today.

Speaker 2:

And if, if mark bracknell wanted a superconductor and had a checkbook and wanted to buy one, someone would sell you one. Um, what differentiates supernode is they all use a particular type of a pipe or conduit to flow the liquid nitrogen which keeps the superconductor cool 24 7, and that is. It's a good technology, but it's distance limited in that it's corrugated, so it impedes the flow of the liquid nitrogen. And what Supernode have innovated, developed and patented is a polymeric, so effectively a plastic solution, which can do the same job cycle up and down to minus 200, but a smooth bore, so it's lighter, it's cheaper and it goes further. So we like to think of it as being half the price and three times the performance. So what we've done is taken superconducting technology, which is mature and at a level that you could buy it today, and taking it to a new level to extend its range and capability. And that's what supernode have done, and that's different from what's there today yeah, amazing, amazing.

Speaker 1:

I wish you all the best, johns. I think it's gonna. It's a fascinating project it's great to have in the northeast, in blythe, you know, I think the future looks bright and, yeah, I'm looking forward to seeing it all unravel and be there. So, yeah, thank you very much.

Speaker 2:

Cheers Mark, Take care and have a good Christmas.

Speaker 1:

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the Manufacturing Leads podcast. It absolutely means the world to me. Please let me know if you need any assistance. As a business, we look at providing partnerships with manufacturing engineering companies to really help their recruitment and retention. On the recruitment piece anywhere from blue collar semi-skilled staff right the way up to C-suite level executive appointments, but also much more than that we run events. So please let me know if you're interested in any of those.

Speaker 1:

If you are interested in becoming a podcast guest, we're very, very keen to speak to you as well More than happy to do so. But as a business, as I say, we look at key partnerships to really help your recruitment, your retention, your marketing, your training. We really believe in the partnership piece and being extension of your business. We're very proud to work in this sector. I love manufacturing engineering and my staff are just as passionate about it as I am. So thank you once again for listening. Please get in touch to talk about anything we can do to help. Look forward to speaking to you very soon, thank you.