Manufacturing Leaders

Steve Drew: Shaping the Future, Empowering the Next Generation of Electrical Engineers

• Mark Bracknall • Season 10 • Episode 3

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What if the future of manufacturing and engineering could be redefined by engaging the youth and aligning education with industry needs? Join me, Mark Bracknell, as I welcome Steve Drew, the visionary founder of Nano, who believes in leading by example to tackle these challenges head-on. Steve shares his insights on the often misunderstood world of manufacturing and electronics, highlighting the essential role of leadership in inspiring the next generation. Together, we tackle the pressing issue of attracting young talent to the manufacturing and engineering sectors and propose innovative strategies to address the disconnect between educational curriculums and modern industry demands.

The conversation goes beyond theory, as we ponder the real impact of automation in manufacturing and the evolving nature of jobs in the industry. Despite technological advancements, the human touch, intuition, and expertise are irreplaceable. We address the misconceptions surrounding automation, highlighting the necessity of human involvement to interpret complex data and make critical decisions. Steve and I also examine the need for a balanced approach where technology and human skills coexist, fostering an environment ripe for innovation and growth.

As we scrutinize the landscape, we also navigate the complexities of supply chains and the frustrations of late payments, urging businesses to communicate effectively and maintain financial integrity. Steve's candid reflections offer a window into the world of electronics manufacturing, where challenges such as component shortages and financial pressures are ever-present. This episode is a treasure trove for anyone eager to understand the multifaceted world of manufacturing and engineering, providing both inspiration and practical insights on building a resilient future for these crucial industries.

Please subscribe to the channel for more content! Theo James are a Manufacturing & Engineering Recruiter based in the North East, helping Manufacturing and Engineering firms grow across the UK. Please call us on 0191 5111 298

Speaker 1:

Hello and welcome to an episode of the Manufacturing Leaders Podcast with me Mark Bracknell, Marketing Director of Theo James Recruitment. Today we welcome Steve Drew, the founder and director of Nano. I love this episode. It was one where it was more of a podcast conversation than an interview and it was an insane episode which was, for me, very important to have.

Speaker 1:

Steve's passion is the new generation and the lack of people coming into the industry. His industry in particular is electronics, so we talked about that in isolation, but the topic was definitely for all areas of manufacturing and engineering. There's no one answer to the problem of the lack of people coming into industry, but we talk about them all and possible solutions and how the industry can come together to help solve this real problem. And Steve is so passionate about it and I think if we can listen, do something and start to create a movement which is ultimately going to help the new generation and help our industry and help the UK manufacturing and engineering industry, it's got to be good, it's got to be a positive thing. So this felt like a really powerful episode. We also then linked it into electronics and supply chain and what Nano do, and there's some nice lessons there in terms of setting up the right supply chain for your manufacturing business or your contract manufacturing business. So there's some good lessons there to be had as well, alongside some other fun rants we had about people paying late and all sorts of other stuff.

Speaker 1:

So I think you're going to hopefully enjoy this episode. Please grab a coffee, listen, watch whatever you want to do. I would massively appreciate it and I'm really pleased to be on it. I've just clicking like and subscribe. It really helps grow the show and grow the channel, so I'll be forever in your debt if you don't mind just clicking that like and subscribe button now. Hope you enjoy the episode. Speak soon. Right, a massive warm welcome today to Steve Drew, who is the director and founder of Nano. How are we doing, Steve?

Speaker 2:

All right, All very good, yes, thank you For a Thursday afternoon?

Speaker 1:

Absolutely, absolutely so. Thank you very much for coming on today, looking forward to this. Now, obviously, we'll deep dive into the business and electronics and all things like that, but initially, the first question is the same question I see everyone comes on what does it mean to you to be a leader, would you say?

Speaker 2:

To be honest, I've never thought myself as one. I mean, most of my career has been spent working for smaller companies, so I guess I've never really been in that position I have. I have managed people. Um, I don't. I guess I've never felt myself like that. I think one of my criticisms when I was very young in my career and I was seen as a manager was I was too close to the people below me, if you like. I could never. I could never put myself in that position. So I guess I don't, I've never felt like a leader.

Speaker 2:

I guess, I guess lead by example. If that was, uh, if that's the way forward, yeah not do as I say, but you know, this is what I would do yeah, I agree.

Speaker 1:

I think the term leadership is very broad and subjective and I think there's a difference between. I mean, what do you think? What do you think the difference is between management and leadership? Would you say that is more for you, that leading from the front piece?

Speaker 2:

I think it is. I guess every, every industry is different and every situation is different. Right, obviously, if you're in the army, you do as you're told and the leader ultimately has the final say. Obviously, in industry and in the office it's slightly different. I prefer people that listen because everyone's got an opinion right. It may not be the right opinion, but it's someone that does listen because there is valid opinions out there.

Speaker 2:

But I've always tried to be as good as I can be and then hopefully that rubs off on people. I mean, I think we sort of touched on it in the sort of pre-bit, but I see myself now trying to encourage the youngsters into the industry. I know we're going to touch on it later, but I think that's probably. You know, I don't feel my age. I mean, you know, that's the thing we're all like, that you know, when you, when you're young, you look at people my age, you think god, they're old and I don't. And then when the older, the older people go, I don't feel my age and you don't understand that. And I think that's I'm 54.

Speaker 2:

I do not feel 54, I'm like so yeah, I get that completely.

Speaker 1:

I turned 40 last week and um and I I remember thinking when I'm 20, when I'm 40, I'll feel 40. You're looking at 40-year-olds and going oof, but obviously you change and you probably change more than you think, but I don't feel 40. I feel exactly the same. I'm just probably a little bit more boring than I was when I was 20, lifestyle-wise, and I'm okay with that. I'm not. Yeah, I completely understand that.

Speaker 1:

Let's talk about that first, because you know, what I loved about our pre-conversation was when I asked you what are you passionate about? The first thing you said was the future generation, and I absolutely love that, because one of the reasons we started this podcast was to bring awareness to the industry, and I think anything which helps the new generation and helps manufacturing engineering is important and there's an obvious problem, there's obvious challenge in this country and more people like you standing up for it and talking about it and talking about platforms like this is really crucial. So I'd be keen to know, initially, why that's important to you, would you say, because some companies it's important? Then, because they want to improve their business, which is, which is fine. They want to make sure that the future generation of their business is is ready. But for you it didn't seem about that, it was more about you know the, the actual generation and the industry piece itself. Have I called that right?

Speaker 2:

you have. Yeah, I think for me, I mean I've I fell into this business. I I haven't. I left university, I had no idea what I wanted to do and I literally ended up at a random interview at avnet. Uh, we all know avnet, you know 20 odd, 22 billion pound distribution company and just sort of fell into the industry. Uh, I was, I did electronics at university, was really bad at it, um, but I was.

Speaker 2:

I found I was an only child and very shy, but there was a point in my life where everything flipped and I realized I could actually, I was quite funny and I could talk to people, and so I found that being in the industry of which is what we're in, which is distribution, you have it's a people business and you have to talk to people. So I sort of fell into it, but I've absolutely loved every minute of it. Every day is different. There's so many facets of, of the whole business and it's it's sad to see, especially these days, and so, yeah, for me it's like I can see the challenges. We will probably have both retired before the reality hits, but we are running out of people, you know, and it's where are these people going to be coming from to run the business.

Speaker 2:

You know the world is electronics right, I mean hardware and software runs the world. If that stopped, you know, we saw a very small glimpse of it during COVID, after, when we had the component shortages and literally all of a sudden panic ensued and that was just the computer chips. But if someone stopped designing those, and so yeah, that for me, you know, because I've loved it, I want to, I want to sort of, you know, encourage and enthuse the next generation, because I can see the gaps and I can see, and I think, the hardest challenge for certainly electronics nothing happens. You know, if you're, if you're doing like mechanical engineering, you move things right yeah, I think moving, and you can see.

Speaker 2:

Well, if you do this, this happens with electronics it's a box in the corner. So I think that's the hardest thing is, how do you encourage people to do something when nothing happens, there's no physical reaction to whatever you do? But, yeah, no, you're right, and I've sort of dabbled with it previously. Well, you know early stages of Nano. I was working for a trade organization and the problem is I don't know how you solve it because it's too big. Yeah, that people are doing things in small bits, in isolation, and it's not just the UK, it's worldwide. You know, and I think being and obviously this is a very old man comment now but you look at the generation and you look at things like TikTok and YouTube. You can earn so much money by being an idiot online.

Speaker 1:

Why would you work? Yeah, I know, and actually I think one of the biggest problem is is patience, the lack of patience. People don't grow up with patience and I see, I see in my kids, you know, they're growing up with with ipads and we're quite old school parents in the sense that we really try and limit that, really try and limit how much they're on it. But there's got to be balance. But you know that, literally know we had four channels. I remember when Channel 5 came and it was just a massive thing. It's not their fault. They're growing up with everything and they don't have to work hard to have things like that. It's a completely different landscape. So it isn't their fault. But how do we leverage that? Because why do people want to go over to? Is it because people want to be famous? Is it because they want to get rich quick? It's tricky? Isn't it Because the world is changing very quickly?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah it is, but I think you know, I don't know. I mean, I see we do, we talk to young engineers and they're very enthusiastic, but the pool is very small these days.

Speaker 2:

yeah, you know, back in the day, you know people wanted to do things, but yeah, that I don't know. Um, it is. It's a challenge, I mean. Yeah, like I said, I think ultimately it comes down to money, right? Yeah, people and people see these influencers earning massive amounts of money and thinking, well, if I go and work in tesco's I'm not going to earn anywhere near that, but I can do it online and it's. Yeah, the world has to change, but something will stop because, yeah, tiktok is great, but if there's no, if technology doesn't advance and keep that platform running, then it will stop. And the only way to keep that technology platform running is someone's got to maintain it and develop it.

Speaker 1:

And those people are not there. Just that does that link with purpose to some extent, because I also think that the the advantage we have is people more connected, I think, to purpose than before. I think if you look at 30, 40 years ago, people were if you put a poll out there, the the main motivation would be probably job security. You know how do I, how do I work. If I get to this apprenticeship, can I be here for 30 years? Because that's what my dad did and that's what my granddad did, and I think that's massively changed now and actually the new generation want to be part of something, whether that's something which is connected to sustainability.

Speaker 1:

Without something connected, something good actually you mentioned yourself there, you know to be. The electronics piece is interesting because electronics does run the world and it stops without it and that in itself is quite a big statement for a business to promote what they do, because these things don't work without me. It's the old, putting them out there, asking the cleaner, and I said what you know, what you do, I help put them on the moon, isn't it? It's, it's that type of stuff, do you?

Speaker 2:

do you think that is an opportunity where companies can leverage that and really sort of push on that sort of purpose piece yes, I I well, I think the biggest problem certainly and I can only really talk about electronics and the semiconductor industry that I've worked in it's really bad at marketing itself yeah so absolutely.

Speaker 2:

I mean, everybody's got a reason to be right. You know I've always put people into two categories, which is altruism and money. So you either want to be a doctor or a nurse, because you've always wanted to be and you want to be helpful people, which I guess you could probably put purpose into that as well that the, the goal is, not the financial reward. It's about that. That journey most people, I think, fall into the. I just want to get paid and I want to earn a load of money and ideally I want to do less for it.

Speaker 2:

And I think again when I talk to kids and electronics is so, and to some extent probably manufacturing, but certainly electronics. It's so hidden under many layers, people don't know what's involved. And I think, again, I've sort of done the rounds and for me, my biggest frustration and you know, obviously we want to it it's a very um, flat sector. Ie there's no, there's no gender issues or color issues or anything like that. You can do the job, you can do the job and people don't really care. You know what you identify as or anything like that. But getting girls into engineering, I think, is really important. Yeah, um, but when, if you google it and I, because I did a piece on this a couple of years ago. If you actually google female engineer, at least 80 of the videos or the images are hard hat.

Speaker 2:

High vision of spam yeah that is completely nothing to do with electronics, obviously. So you've got girls that you know don't want to do that, but then we've also got parents going. Well, you can earn what you shouldn't. You don't want to be an engineer, you want to be a doctor.

Speaker 2:

I guarantee if you're an engineer you will earn twice as much money for as a doctor less hours in less hours in a non-environment and you're not dealing with the public, um, but, but we, but that's not there, right? So how do we, how do we get that message across that these things exist? And I think again I I got involved with a, a group up in the northeast again, you know one of these, and they were trying to encourage children, you know sort of primary school, uh, um, about engineering and manufacturing, and this was just engineering in general and the one of the first question they asked the children is what's an engineer? And do you know what? The most common answer was what? Someone who fixes cars.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, doesn't surprise me.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So that's the problem. And there were some really good ideas because they were asking them to come up with engineering solutions to a problem. And there were some really cool ideas in this little competition. But the problem is the education system doesn't support it. And again, without being rude, it is a fact. Primary school 90% of teachers are female, of a certain age and certain ability. They don't understand engineering, so they can't pass it on. Then you get to middle school and it's not taught. So all of a sudden, that enthusiasm that might be there is just beaten out of them to the point that so yeah, it's a really big problem, right, government ultimately needs to go manufacturing, and that's across the board. I think I don't think we've really focused on manufacturing since coal and steel went, because they don't understand it.

Speaker 1:

They don't, they don't, they don't. They still don't understand it because they've never worked in it. That's the problem, isn't it?

Speaker 2:

and until we, until somebody goes, we need to drive this down and I know there's lots of groups trying really hard to do this. It has to be completely it has to be completely agnostic from government, because the problem with government is they come and go right, they have their own agendas and policies and that's because they're focusing on their career and not. So we need a completely independent group that will just focus on it and try and do something. Like I said, it's not just the UK problem, it's a worldwide problem. People are not going into these industries. So yeah, I don't know the answer to that one. That's way bigger than me. I'll have retired and, you know, probably dead by the time something good happens.

Speaker 2:

But if we can do our little bits, you know, and encourage people. When we do trade shows, we get students come up to us and if they're being sensible and, you know, not being being stupid and just getting there for freebies, I will actively encourage them. So if you're doing electronics, stick with it. Here's the industry. Doing electronics, stick with it. Here's the industry. If you're interested, here's the sort of areas of the business you should look at in terms of you know, and you can earn some good money in this. You know, I've talked about fpjs. That's sort of the stuff I used to sell and fpj engineers are really, really hard to find and they can earn a lot of money.

Speaker 2:

When you start saying that to students, you go they're like really, and you're like, yeah, focus on that. Oh, you know, there's again. I tried to do something, uh, but again it just again. It's just all about trying to get enough people involved. Yeah, but there is no central knowledge center for information. So if a kid goes, oh I'm interested'm interested in this, where do they go? Yeah, and if you go on any government-type thing, you're just going to get lost in the noise because it's just poor. Yeah, we need something from industry for industry that says if you're interested in this, this is what we do as a business. Someone needs to collate that and that's, I think, trying to get all these little groups that are trying to do the right thing is all together. That's a.

Speaker 1:

That's a job in itself right and you know what. I think you have answered it. You've answered because there's no one answer. That's the point. There's so many little things that we need to do because it's not an overnight solution, it's a it's not even a decade solution. But all these things are so important because I completely agree with you the, the curriculum and school curriculums.

Speaker 1:

Let's be honest, for years it's all been about passing exams so schools can get good off-stem reports. It's as simple as that. It's never been about getting people ready for employment, or it might have been, but employment has moved on so much that it's just not fit for it. You know, you look at stem and the. You know the types of the types of maths and physics and and subjects that they need to. It's, even if you do those subjects, it's not connected to what they need.

Speaker 1:

Now. You know how much is technology, ai, automation, it's all moved on, which is amazing stuff like it's. It's fascinating and that needs to be somehow started to, to be um drilled into kids at a young age because it's exciting stuff as well. But I completely agree with you, it's that lack of awareness piece and I do think actually that missing gap, which is the obvious one is the parents piece because let's be honest, at 15, 16, even that age, who knows what they want to do? Not many people. You get the old my wife's teacher, both my, I've got a five-year-old and nine-year-old. They both say at this stage you want to be teachers because they've not and actually they might be and hopefully they're great to do, but it's because they've not had any other exposure to any of the types of employment. Really, my job's not the sort of job you sort of talk about very often, it's different teaching.

Speaker 1:

But if they had and when you do and you talk about that industry in terms of what they can see. I mean there's so many unbelievable factories in this region which is just fascinating, and if kids walk around it like Nissan itself is amazing. But there's companies like SMD, solar Machine Dynamics. These are companies who make subsea, you know, literally robots under in under the sea, which which will blow people's mind. And when do you ever see an advert to go to attract to school kids that go? You can earn a hundred thousand pounds because you don't see it, because companies are scared to do it, but you do see it for get you know, go on tiktok or youtube how to make 100 grand in a in a month. Do you know what I mean? Which is and that's all, it's all. Get quick. You're rich, so why not press on the you know, like you said before, you either want to be a doctor or you want to earn money.

Speaker 2:

If you want to money, great, you can do it in the sector, and this is how you do it yeah, yeah, well, I mean, we did have a conversation, I did try and start something, but the problem is obviously one we've got day jobs right and then it's just trying to get people motivated. But I wanted to create basically an industry directory Obviously just focus on electronics, but it could be expanded which literally just lists job profiles. Yeah, so electronics engineer, you know, in medical, earns X to y and sort of this is the basic job spec. You know, fpga design engineer does this and this is the sort of thing you know, so you can then. So it's almost searchable. So if I'm interested in cars, well here's all the automotive things.

Speaker 2:

But the big headline I mean is the sort of salary range, because I think I think it surprised so many people how much you know. You know because you know people think like you earn a lot of money. Well, yeah, you do. But I mean headteachers, you know I was surprised how much headteachers earn. But you know, as a junior engineer you can earn a lot more than it is scary and it does need. It needs some group to and I know people are trying and there's lots of these sort of things. But I think the problem, I see, and again, I don't want to get too political, but everyone sort of then sort of does what they think and then tries to get government involved and I think that's the biggest thing Don't get government involved. I think that has to be, I think, Too inconsistent.

Speaker 2:

It is and it's never going to be, because you know, fads come and go. I mean I, I saw the, I saw that when they were talking about semiconductors and it's like it's embarrassing.

Speaker 2:

Haven't got a clue and they're only they're only interested because obviously some large car company back in the day, when we couldn't get parts, was complaining they haven't got a clue, they're not going to invest in it. We're not going to get fabs in the uk. We're going to. We can, we can, you know, we can, um, innovate and we can develop stuff. But let's be realistic. You know we have fabs in the uk, have a certain level and we should absolutely be investing in those compound semiconductors. You know there's lots of good stuff going on that, but we're not going to get an intel high-end fab. So let's be realistic. But let's focus on what we do. Even just things like startups and investing in people with ideas. We're not interested. It's so hard to get money. If you've got an idea, it's almost impossible to get, and I think the whole thing needs basically starting from scratch. But we need an independent group that is just run by businesses.

Speaker 2:

for business that has got maybe some government funding, but the government don't control what goes on.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, the government funds someone to fund something to start and everyone else join it, so it has to be truly independent. Yeah, yeah, 100% agree.

Speaker 2:

Going way back to what you said, yes, which is why I try and encourage any student or young person I meet that is doing that. I absolutely encourage because we are short, so if that one person continues, then it's a win right.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I think if there's one thing people can do, this thing because you're right, it's not an overnight thing to attract people in their business, young people is go after the parents and and and have open days for apprenticeships or open days for, you know, for parents to come in and walk around, because, ultimately, typically it's the parents that give people a kick up the arse when they need it if they're 15, 16, you know I think that's a lot of people miss out.

Speaker 2:

They go for the kids, but yeah, it's like I say, it's influenced by the parents and, uh, and you know, at that age you haven't got a clue what you want to do, right, you know there's going to be. I didn't, I fell into it and that's for a lot of people. So, but if you can find that chink, that that infuses them, yeah, um, and and the great thing with I've always seen with electronics and I sort of touched on it when we spoke pre-setting up we're trying to do something around with the ipc, uh, around manual skills like soldering, because, again, what we were talking about is very much focusing on the engineer, right, the people designing stuff, and but what about the people that run the surface, mount lines or build the boards or do the cable assemblies or do the soldering? They don't, they're not coming through either because it's not taught. So how do?

Speaker 2:

And again, I was probably in that zone. I was academically okay and you know there's a level where you know, when you're at university you probably think, no, it's not really for me, so you think you end up going somewhere else. But if you knew there was another subsection of the business that you could get involved in electronics and you just have all the fun. But you end up making the stuff, or you know how do we tell people that. So, yes, you can be a buyer. You know, you don't even have to do electronics, you're buying the electronics. My wife, she does all the buying. She now knows what the difference is between 0603 and 0805 and connectors and stuff you know. So you get involved in tech without really having to know tech and you're then working for companies that are doing cool stuff.

Speaker 1:

So 100% I mean, look, we've got a hr director role the minute, 120 grand. Yeah, you know, I mean it 120k, it's a it's, it's a lot of money. So it's um, there is that, those opportunities are out there. Yeah, you talk about that um manual skill place and obviously you're absolutely right now that that's probably the going to be the biggest challenge, I would say still to attract people for these. You know your Panawyman, your Turners, your Fitters, all that piece, you know the Soldiers that type. It's going to be difficult. Where do you see things changing? If you look at the electronics industry isolation, do you see it changing with the influx of AI and automation? How do you see that sort of integrating with that Not really influx of ai and automation? How do you see that sort of?

Speaker 2:

integrating with that? Not really, I mean I, obviously I don't. I hate it when people say ai because ai doesn't exist. Yeah, um, basically, ai is not ai, right, it's not, it's not intelligent, it's just it's it's. It's a database, it's just very quick googling. Um, I think I think to some extent is what we're talking about.

Speaker 2:

The lack of skills is going to force people into automation because they've got no choice. Yeah, you know, um, because they can't get the people, so they've got to come up with another way. But you know, if you look at the processes for just well, one designing a circuit board, right, you have a human has to do that. Um, I've seen some. There is a company selling sort of a sort of computer aided design so you can pick blocks. I could see that happening in a few years where where it's almost like you know you, you have a library of functions and you put and then the computer does it. But that's not, that's clunky, right, because it's not the real world. Um, so you're gonna, you still need people to someone to understand what the real world application is and how you make things work. Uh, and then you know, once you've done that, you've got to have someone that's got to create the circuit boards, which obviously involves humans redoing things. There's chemicals involved and processes.

Speaker 2:

So while there's machines doing things, someone's still got to interpret and fill the gaps. And then you're putting the components on the boards. Someone's still got to take those and the machine does something wrong. Someone's got to interpret that we're not getting rid of people. You're never going to get that end-to-end software. It's not going to happen. Yeah, we can get rid of some functions, but it's still human-driven. Someone's got to interpret the real world and no computer on earth is ever going to be able to do that. So I think automation is being forced on us in certain industries. There is an element, obviously, of cost, right, obviously, a robot can run 24-7 and doesn't complain or have tea breaks, but that's been happening since the 70s really, and that will continue. There's going to be areas where that will continue to happen, but we're not getting rid of people, so we need people to interpret the data. So, yeah, and talking about AI, we're decades away from what you'd class as artificial intelligence. There's some cool stuff going on. I'd be more scared of quantum computing than AI.

Speaker 1:

It's interesting because I think, you know, obviously it's completely changed in the industry. There will be less people in the industry to some, you know, long-term I think but I think there still will be a lot of human interaction elements to it. Those skills will just change, you know. They'll just get more mature. It's the same as that. It's all these people, I think, gone a gone are the day. You know, you might not see some of the size of factories you have now in terms of, you know, moving forward, the amount of manual work. I think it will go a little bit more automated, but I think more often than not, the skills will just change and we'll just have to change with it.

Speaker 1:

Apologies for interrupting this episode with a very quick announcement about my business. Theo James are a specialist talent provider specifically to the manufacturing and engineering sector. I'm incredibly proud of what we've achieved since our inception in 2015. We specialize in roles from semi-skilled trades right the way up to our TJ exec search arm of the business. Both on the contract and permit side, we offer both bespoke one-off campaigns for hard to fill roles or a full partnership service where we become an extension of your business. For any information, please get in touch with me or the team. I hope you enjoy the rest of the episode. Thank you. I think a lot of people can learn from you and also what Nano do. So if you don't mind, give me a brief sort of run out of what Nano do and your business do. That would be ideal, because I think there's some lessons there. Oh, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:

So well, I mean, if I just give you a quick potted history of what I've done, because that's sort of I guess, because my wife says to me, would you wish you'd done this years ago? And I'm like, no, because I couldn't have done it years ago, because it was almost. Like sometimes I don't know if you look back on your career, but sometimes you look back and go, it's sort of everything. This decision got to me to this point. If I'd made a different decision I wouldn't be doing this. So I mean, like I said, I left university, I did electronics, but I sort of fell into the industry working at Avnet. I ended up being Xilinx product manager. So for a number of years I was selling semiconductors, so FPGAs and high-end solutions. So I spent most of my, I guess, my formative learning years dealing with engineers and understanding engineers and listening to what they say rather than just dictating. And then I got involved. So I've sort of done that. I've worked for some large and smaller organizations in component distribution. Then I got involved in component kitting and contract manufacturing. So I've got a sort of a good spread of electronics and obviously I see all the challenges and you know what goes on and I get.

Speaker 2:

My biggest frustration is life is faff when people you know I'm sure you've been to sales meetings where you spend two hours in the meeting. Then you come out going I'm just wasting two hours of my life because nothing's been resolved, right, yeah, and you're like what's the point? So that's my biggest frustration is there's lots of wasted time and faffing around for no apparent reason. Um and again, without boring you in in the in the minutiae of of how I came up with I had this idea and I'd sort of dabbled with it while working somewhere else, and then we obviously had COVID and then the global component shortage. So it was all a little bit, you know, and I said to my wife I've got this idea. You know, I don't really want to work for anyone else because we all know bosses are idiots, right, we can always do better than them. So it's like I can't work for anyone else. What do I do? And I've got this idea. So I sort of spoke to a couple of suppliers, spoke to a couple of customers, and it's a great idea. So it sort of evolved slightly. But the way I normally describe it to a layman is think travel agent, but for electronics it's exactly the same process. So I'm very clear to say we're not a kitting company, we're not a broker, because they bring up different images. So a travel agent who took me a while trying to work out how do I, and it was like well, that's the best analogy.

Speaker 2:

So if you're, if you want to go on holiday, you can do it yourself. Right, you know you can go. I want to go to Spain. I've not been to this area before, but I've heard it's nice. So you'll then go on Google and do some research and Expedia and Bookingcom and do all that. Then you might bring the hotel up and say I'm bringing some family and try and find a deal. Then you've got to get your flights and your insurance and your parking. Or you go to Tui and say I want to go to Spain, what can you do? And they've already done the work. Right, they've already gone to Spain, identified some hotels and said look, we're going to bring some tourists in negotiate room rates and they just sort it for you.

Speaker 2:

Now, the following year, you could absolutely do it yourself because you you know the hotel you've just been to, you know the airline, you could go. But then sometimes you're like I haven't got time to manage. I'll just go back to two again, because I'm not saving any. Either it's not saying I'm not saving more money or it's not really costing me a lot more. So yeah, I'll just go with the easy route. So we apply the same thing.

Speaker 2:

So the bulk of what we do is on PCB assembly, so contract manufacturing For a contract manufacturer. So a factory doing that, they have two issues it's capability and capacity, and they're always juggling that. So capacity is always an issue. Right, they can only sell what the factory can do. So if the factory is busy, it's busy and they're always juggling that. So capacity is always an issue. Right is they can only sell what the factory can do. So if the factory is busy, it's busy and they can't change that. They might be ready to put extra shifts on, but there's a cost to that. So often they'll be trying to compromise with customers or even saying to customers I can't do it at the moment and trying to hold on to that customer. And then you've got capability, where the customer is an existing customer and they want something different that the CM can't do. But the CM doesn't really want them to go elsewhere because then they potentially lose.

Speaker 2:

And then often in the quote process, customers you know like we all go and get three quotes and they'll send out two or three quotes. Only one ever wins the business, but two factors will do the same amount of work to not get it. So if they're doing that repeatedly, they're wasting so much time just quoting and so, and often then there's a reluctance to quote and it all becomes a bit messy from a customer point of view. There's 205 something like that contract manufacturers in this country, so there's a big pool to start with now, big to little. So where do you start if you don't know?

Speaker 2:

Most people will then go on referral, so they'll ring their you know current suppliers or sales reps as you can you recommend, so they've got to spend some time trying to find those. Then they've got to send out the inquiry. So they send out the three quotes. They'll get loads of questions come back could be the same question three times or different questions. Which they've got a field. They'll get them three prices back.

Speaker 2:

Now, unfortunately, customers being customers because we're all people right I guarantee that if they send out three quotes and they get two back really quickly, they will still wait for the third one because you never know, right? Yeah, so it could. So all of a sudden, if that three one takes two weeks, they're waiting two weeks, where the other two have already quoted in a few days. So anyway, they go through that process, they'll get three prices. They'll make a decision. They may need to go visit the factories, and that takes time. Place the order if things are fine. Then a few months later they say, oh, we want some more and oh, we're a bit busy at the moment. It's going to be a bit longer. So there's this big cycle of pain just in that. And I think the biggest take on everything in this industry is paranoia. If I said to you I'm working with Fred Blogs, then people think well, now you know that you'll go to Fred Blogs and cut me out of the loop and I lose it.

Speaker 1:

It's not like a trust.

Speaker 2:

There's still this fear factor and I can Google these companies right. So I'm like, well, it's not that hard, why are we making it so right? So I'm like, well, it's not that hard, why are we making it so hard? So we do similar to the travel agent model we sit between the customer and the supply chain. So we've gone out and identified a whole bunch of factories that do different things, that are good at what they do. So we've got small CEMs that are one, two, three-man bands, all the way up to multi-million pound CEMs. We've've got 13. We're just about to take on the 14th in all in the uk. We've also got in cable assembly companies we've got three of those and then a whole bunch of design guys. So the customer comes to us and says, right, can you get me something made? Yeah, we can. So we, we quote the bill of materials once we. We manage that. So there's, all the cm has to do is quote assembly. So their time is reduced. We buy all the materials so they don't have to do all the stocking and all that. They can just build from a kit. So their time in an agro factory is reduced.

Speaker 2:

Customer gets what they want and what we say is we match the work to the right factory. So if it's prototypes or small batch, we'll get guys that want to do it, not the guys that do production but will reluctantly do it just because they don't want to lose the work. We're like, well, it doesn't matter. And what we say is well, we offer what we call a nano NRE, so one tooling charge. So when you're having stuff made, there's normally a stencil price or programming or there's a one-off cost. So if we get the prototypes made, that might say it costs 500 quid for all the tooling. But what it means is if we say, actually now we're going from prototypes to production, so we'll move it to another factory, we don't charge the customer again. We just absorb that as a cost because it's like a few hundred quid. So the customer gets the full flexibility of being able to do, you know, without having all the faffing around of adding new suppliers and obviously certain big companies. It's always difficult to put new suppliers on the books, you know, because they've got to go through approval processes or Nndas or we like. Well, you've got access to 20 suppliers through one. So that's the kitted company thing. So really it's a win-win for everybody.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, we, we very much focus on small, medium batch, which is where a lot of the agro is. Obviously, you know, if a customer says I want a thousand a month and places one order, they can do it themselves. They don't need me. I can handle it, but I don't add any value. Um, and it sort of works, um, and we know, you know, and, and it's fully transparent. So you know, the customer knows who the suppliers are. We introduce them, we say why we've chosen them. There's no middleman fee, uh, so we, we get our preferential rates from our suppliers because they're not doing so much work.

Speaker 2:

It's easy. We manage all the credit, the customer, the stock. All they've got to do is build it. The customer, the CMs, can build it. If it's regular, we're happy to let them order the materials. Or if it's like, say, medical, which is under certification, they can place the order direct on the CM. But we stay as the salesperson. So the point of contact remains 100% with Nana.

Speaker 2:

From a customer point of view, it's easy. They just go. Steve, can you sort this out? Some customers don't care and I think that was the biggest thing for me when I've been doing manufacturing Most customers really it doesn't make a difference. It used to be back in the day they wanted the factory nearby because they could convert it. It doesn't make a difference. It used to be back in the day they wanted the factory nearby because they could convert a visit. It doesn't happen. I can count on the fingers of one hand how many times it's actually been necessary. And even if it is, it's a one-off visit. But if they do, then you'd use a supplier that's nearby. But ultimately most companies just want stuff made that works and is on time.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's interesting. So, out of all I mean, obviously now you are an expert at setting this up for businesses. What would you say, you know, if a business was to do this themselves? And and I guess you know, I guess if you were to set up again for it could be tomorrow what would you say? The biggest pitfalls or the biggest lessons you've learned where you go? Actually, these are the key things we need to look for to make X, y and Z run smoothly, would you say?

Speaker 2:

I mean obviously being slightly industry and specific. Don't try and do too much. Is one, be very clear on what you want to be. Don't try and please everybody. You know, obviously, look at your market right. What's everyone doing, what's people doing wrong? But be very specific. If you focus, as I say, stay in your lane right. You're very good at one. Just focus on that and don't be I've been told many times, don't be busy fools.

Speaker 2:

You know we can all do that right, where we can spend loads and loads of time doing stuff and not earning any money. Ultimately, you're in business to make money. So you know, sometimes be brutal and go well, yeah, I could do that, but it's not going to earn me anything Be very. I think it's about focus and especially when you're small and growing, and don't try. You don't have to run, you know. You know be. I mean, as I said, we're in a nice position now, but I remember when I first started it was like can I afford to take this £1,000 order Because you know I've got to pay for it. You know, I'm very proud that. You know we don't. We always pay our suppliers even if we haven't been paid. We always pay our suppliers even if we haven't been paid. We're very clear on that. It's just my thing. I don't want to be that guy, right, and so, yeah, we're very clear on that. So, but yeah, just start small and just build up, but I'd say the definite one is focus.

Speaker 1:

Okay, that's good advice. Are you seeing any? You look at the supply chain piece. Are you seeing any trends at the moment where that's people you know on showering, where that's people just going for for price of equality? Are you seeing any? Any changes you know now versus you know a few years ago, would you say?

Speaker 2:

yeah, I think I think probably last year there was a lot of conversation about reshoring and bringing stuff back. I think certainly the COVID slash component sort of helped in that regard. It's a difficult one. It opens up my I get on my soapbox about the whole thing. The biggest problem is we've created a monster that we can't put back in the box.

Speaker 2:

Just sort of expanding on that is the world is rubbish in terms of there's too much stuff. I mean, you go to Costco or you know, look at Timu, why do we need so much stuff? We just fill, you know, we just create, we've created this machine of disposable rubbish, um, and we're not, and so we expect disposable and cheap. Now, you know, and so I feel for some companies that are in that middle of that and go, well, we've got to put our prices up, but if they put their prices up, people won't buy it because they've got there's already an expectation, right? Uh, I'll see. I saw something on today about the farmers, you know, saying, well, because they're being squeezed by the supermarkets because we, we won't accept an extra 20p on milk. That's not, you know. Then the farmers are still having to put, you know, sell it for 1.40 because we won't accept it. At some point something's got to give. Where we go, we've all got to accept. We've got to pay more for the world to be better. It's not going to happen because you know, we just keep making stuff. You know why do we need a new phone every year? Why do we need all these different cars, all these different models, all this stuff? So, yeah, reassuring, yes, because I think there is certain industries that are concerned about supply chain and whether that is IP wandering into something else or just not having that control.

Speaker 2:

I think, you know, certainly with COVID there was certain people realized how fragile it was. Well, I think that is just poor purchasing. The problem, I think I mean the problem is always there. You know. It's been like 10, 20 years. It's been going on. It's obviously driven by the automotive guys, because they are so pedantic and all they do is say, well, we don't want to hold stock, so they expect their next person to hold stock, and stock is dead money, right, they just push it down the chain. So it was always going to be so fragile that something happened and then people panicked by it.

Speaker 2:

So, talking about supply chain, my biggest comment to everybody is work with your suppliers. Tell them, you know, if you can forecast. My biggest frustration, frustration we have customers that they're very much project driven. So they they've got empirical data that says, well, you know, the last five years we've always made a hundred of these. But when you ask them to forecast, they won't. You know, give us some. Not, we can pass it on to our suppliers. It's work with your supply chain, because that's the.

Speaker 2:

That's the reason we had the component shortage. It was people not telling the next person down the line what was expected and then panic buying when it all went horribly wrong. Um, I don't think we'd have had a component shortage if it hadn't been for that. I think there was plenty of stock around.

Speaker 2:

But then also, people start getting into that, well, it's all about me mentality, right? Um, but yeah, so reassuring, yes, but price is a driving factor and we see it. You can buy pcbs for no money out of china. They'll put the, assemble them for no money. You know where'd you go? Uh, and I, I can see a lot of contract manufacturers struggling this year because of, you know, obviously, the national insurance thing that's just put, that's just killed a lot of companies, just purely because they've got a paywall but then they have to, then, you know, earn twice as that just to stand still. Then you've obviously got, you know energy costs and stuff, and you know these are people that are running factories with you know there's a lot of energy consumption. So then they've got to put their prices up, but they can't afford to because there's somebody around the corner that will do it cheaper. It's real, it's, it's challenging, um, but we, as we as consumers, have to expect. Things have got to go up yeah, I completely agree.

Speaker 1:

It's a you've communicated that the you know controversial, but a view I completely agree with. I must apologize, by the way, shameless plug this, but there's music going off the background there and when we play some of the job music comes on. It just went, just came on for about three minutes. Apologies, it's uh, I didn't make me a shameless plug but uh. But you know, you've communicated that extremely well and I completely agree because those challenges are real and you mentioned that. You know that.

Speaker 1:

You know I don't want to get too political but I think the biggest own goal in the last three months has been the change, the budget change, the NI, because we were having so much there was suddenly a little bit of momentum in the industry and we sit right in the middle of it. So we can feel it. There was some momentum, projects were out and still out there. But that change in NI, I you know, for a hundred man manufacturer, that's a hundred grand, that's a hundred grand that they've got to find now which comes straight off the bottom line and where they're going to find it. They're, they're going to probably going to find it by either the growth they were going to make they're not going to make, or they were going to go the opposite way, and you know, and they're literally go. Okay, we have to cut a couple of heads here, which is literally the opposite to what we need right now as a nation it really was.

Speaker 2:

It does decent d, incentivizes you to do anything. You know you look at what's the point, right? Um, oh, it's what we? We're very, we're very asset-like. You know, obviously, nano is just myself, uh, and my wife, um, and you know, we, we will always take a hit before our factories, because you know if we do have to shave anything because they've got people to employ, and so we're aware of that.

Speaker 2:

But yeah, I've got a feel for certain factors. I mean, a lot of them are close anyway, like you said, all of a sudden you're spending more money. It's coming out the bottom line or out of staff, right, they're going to. Then you're talking about automation. They're going to look at it and go well, can we fire people and get them machining? Yeah, what about these people? They've got families and then they can't get another job because of either skills or the fact that no one else is going to employ them, because they're all struggling. You know it's a it's. I understand that. You know we have to pay, but I don't know. It almost feels like we need a hard world ride, reset and start again. I don't for me, I don't understand money. Who's got it all? Because everybody's in debt.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, print more. You know what I mean.

Speaker 2:

I don't know who this one person is that everyone owes, because it doesn't make it's almost fictitious. It almost feels like well, let's start again, everybody will. Everybody starts with 10 grand and we go from there yeah, yeah, yeah, it's.

Speaker 1:

Uh, it's always becoming like bitcoin. What is bitcoin? What you know is it is where's the money, what it's? If it's in your bank, you can't touch it, so it's um. No, I completely agree. On a side note, um, how honorable of you to um to pay people before you get paid as well, because you know, I think it's such a problem which isn't talked about right now.

Speaker 1:

The payment companies are bigger companies, are paying people later than they ever have done and people are accepting it and, and it seems, the bigger you are, the the more acceptable it is, which is nonsense. Could?

Speaker 2:

I have a rant about accountants.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely yeah.

Speaker 2:

I'd like to, I'd like. Well, obviously people are going to listen to this. I'd love some feedback from accountants as to the common excuses I was on holiday or the payment run isn't being done. We tell you your invoice is due, you know, weeks ahead of time. I can schedule a payment today. You know I could. I could pay you and go, I'll, I'll set it up and I'll schedule it. Automation, exactly. That's easy to do. Yeah, why do they think it's acceptable to just delay things and go oh, it's on the payment run next week, or I was on holiday, or I just come up with rubbish excuses and then, when you do email them, they never respond.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, there's no apology as well. There's no apology for being late. They don't care.

Speaker 2:

It's just like you know it's just. I mean, for me it's my absolute biggest and I then have to poke my. It's one of those I don't know if it's, if it's a British thing, or you know, we don't like chasing money. It's almost like I know. It's like you know it feels wrong, right, it feels like I shouldn't be asking, but ultimately you owe me the money because we've contractually completed what we said. Yeah, yeah, it's a really weird and yeah, you're right. And I think the bigger the company, the more they think. Well, you know we've got bigger lawyers, so you know we'll do it when we feel like we had one last week.

Speaker 1:

A big manufacturer said uh, can you get 120 days plus 30, 100, 150 days? Basically it's like 120 days end of month. I was like, well, so I'm gonna wait four, five like five months potentially for a payment. It's unbelievable, it really is. But you, the bigger, the bigger the business, the more they just presume yeah, I mean, well, we've got one.

Speaker 2:

They are. They're a worldwide name. Uh, you know you'll have heard of them. I won't name them, but they are absolutely brilliant they literally play. You say we always ask for three days from invoice.

Speaker 2:

Just because when I do my sheet it calculates, it's a lot easier to just add 30 to it and go pay me then, we accept that most people pay at the end of the month and most companies will do maybe one or two runs and that's fine. But literally, if we say, can you? And they literally pay weekly, so right and it's brilliant, sometimes I'm money turns up I wasn't expecting, because they paid early and what. They're brilliant and, to be fair, most people pay. You know, there or thereabouts, I think. For me I don't mind if you're going to be late, just tell me you're going to be late, you know, yeah expectations you and say you know you're, you're overdue, just tell me.

Speaker 2:

And if you say, look, you know it's going to be on the next payment run because for whatever reason, it'll be next week, great it's the stony silence and, like you said, there's no apology. You. And then the money just turns up and you're like really, and then you're in that do I want to work with this customer?

Speaker 2:

But then you're like well, you know we need business, right, and it's like because finding customers is hard and then so it becomes this minefield that I, yeah, so I'd love some accountants to come up with their reasons for just going, ignoring you and not this. And I know businesses have got to wait for, sometimes have to wait for their payments and their customers, because we're always a customer of somebody.

Speaker 1:

But just tell me that 100% and it links back exactly, I'm sure, when you're looking to set up a supply chain for a business, you know these are factors and you know they have to be factors for businesses. You know when they get paid because you know cash. Unfortunately, cash is king and businesses are killed by cash flow.

Speaker 2:

It's as simple as that I mean we're in a really nice position. Obviously We've got cash in the bank. You know, like four years ago I was worrying about paying £1,000. But we're in a position where you know, we can pay people without having to be paid. So it's something I pride ourselves on and my wife is very on that. Ie, we'll always pay if we can. So we're not that. Like I said, I don't want to be that guy, right? I don't want to be that person coming up, trying to come up with excuses.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, very honorable. Normally, sometimes, at the end of some of my episodes, I have a list of a few questions I throw at you without any planning. Um, we this, this one. I'm probably going to give you one, and this is one that, um, I've started bringing back. This was a feature of the podcast that I've completely stolen from, uh, um, the world's biggest podcast, which is I asked the last guest to give this guest a question. Um, so I can't copyright that, but it's. I'm sure you know the podcast. But I had a guest on last week called Jason Penny. Jason is an account manager at Tharsis up in Northumberland.

Speaker 2:

Oh well, tharsis, we've been trying to do stuff with, so there you go.

Speaker 1:

Could be nice, thank you.

Speaker 2:

No pressure.

Speaker 1:

If you answer this question well, I'm sure it'll get asked.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, we wouldn't mind building some of their boards, so you know, if they want to come and speak to me Absolutely Well, jason's question was and this could be sort of with leadership, it could be absolutely anything I would say for you it's probably the latter. What would you say are your three non-negotiables? What are your three non-negotiables, would you say In terms of what you can take that, however you want, that could be the way you work. That could be for you in terms of people you work with. That could be clients or companies you work with, but for you it could be values, purpose-led. What would you say are your sort of three non-negotiables that you live by?

Speaker 2:

Oh, that's a hard one, isn't it?

Speaker 1:

Absolutely.

Speaker 2:

Now, you see, this is where you need to plan, because I could sit here for 10 minutes and just stare at you, yeah well, I guess we can edit that bit.

Speaker 2:

I guess first off for me is penny pinching. That's something that I would say is not necessarily non-negotiable, but it's a bit bugbear, right, people, it's. I understand that you know certain things. If you're making a million of something, you know one P makes a difference, but I won't name them. But I had a boss once that would spend all morning ringing around different garages to find a cheaper tire. Yeah, you know why. And customers ringing around different garages to find a cheaper tire yeah, you know like you know why. And customers that constantly, you know it's, it's. If it's about 5p, then certainly I just walk away. I can't be bothered because you know that's going to lead on to other things. They're going to pick everything. Yeah, I get that money's tight, but we're, you know. So that um communication, so that communication as we talked about with the accountant, that is a massive issue for me. Just talk to me. If someone sends me an email I'll respond, Even if you just say got your email on it, so you don't get that stony silence.

Speaker 2:

I've tried to speak to so many suppliers where you send out an inquiry, say, look, I'm interested in this, and you nothing. You know, have they read it? Do they care? So you know going about accountants, you know, are you going to pay? And you just get like tumbleweed blows across the screen, you know. Just tell me. You know we can. We're all adults. We can deal with. Yeah, I can. I'd rather deal with the answer. I I'm not great with not knowing. If I know what I'm dealing with, I can deal with it. But when you don't know, that's where I get a little bit uncomfortable. So just tell me. If it's bad news I'll deal with it, but I just want to know. So that's two. I mean, I guess I'm fairly relaxed and I try to get on with most people. I'm not a people person, weirdly, but I always carry that saying. I'm not a public people person. I don't like the public. Other non-negotiables Can we leave it at two, because I can't think of another one, it's a strong two.

Speaker 1:

I'll let you have two, it's a strong two. Well, I just want to thank you, steve, because this has been I've really enjoyed it. You know, sometimes these episodes they're all different, sometimes they're, you know, interviews. I guess you know to some extent, this one's been a really, for me, enjoyable conversation and we've talked about some really important topics and I think you know it's as I said to you at a time, it's really important that I have this, this podcast, as a platform to help the industry. You know that's, that's the, that's the one purpose of it, and we've talked about some really important things and I really appreciate your thoughts, which I completely agree with, regarding the new generation and what we need to do, and there's not one answer to it.

Speaker 1:

It's not, it's everything we've talked about, but it ultimately it's everyone coming together as the industry, um, to do something collectively which is going to make a difference, and I think the more we talk about it, the more light it's going to happen. And if there's one person driving the car thinking, you know what, I could do a little bit more than that. We've helped something so well. Thank you for that conversation, um, I love the fact that, um, the way you described nano as a business in terms of what you do and how that can help people as well, so, um, it's been a great platform to to give to, to give them awareness to the business you do and hopefully people can contact you to understand how that a little bit further, um, and so much more as well. You know, we've had some some really important stuff we talked about. If people want to contact you, what's the best way? Is it want to contact you? What's the best way? Is it LinkedIn, steve, or what's the best way.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, linkedin, obviously our website is obviously wwwnanoelectronicservicescom and then obviously you can reach out to us on there. And yeah, and obviously you know anyone listening as you can tell right, I love it, I love a good gossip and if I can help anyone, you know if it's pointers, or you know if there's any students listening, you know if they just want some help, you know happy to. We've just got involved with Oxford Brookes Racing Team, you know, and I'm a 54-year-old guy. They all look like they're 12, you know. But I say, if you need any help or intros to the industry, just reach out. You know you can contact me online or on LinkedIn.

Speaker 1:

And if I can, I will Well look. Thank you, steve, really appreciate it. No worries.

Speaker 2:

Thank you for setting this up. Thank you.

Speaker 1:

Thank you so much for listening or watching this episode of the Manufacturing Leaders Podcast. Please just like or subscribe. It really helps grow the show and obviously improve the industry. If you want any more information about Theo James, as I mentioned midway through the episode, please get in touch with me or the team. I would love to talk about how it can help you directly or your business. We are more than just a recruiter and I know people say that, but it's something I'm incredibly passionate about. We are in business for much more than just a bums on seats approach. We want to help people grow, we want to help improve their lives and, ultimately, I want to work with businesses and people who share the same values as we do, and that's something I'm incredibly passionate about. So please, if that is you and you are passionate about that dream role or passionate about your people, please get in touch with me or the team. I would absolutely love to talk a bit more detail. Thank you very much. Speak soon.