Manufacturing Leaders

Navigating Site Closure & Redundancy. The Power of a Team First Mindset in Navigating Change

• Mark Bracknall • Season 10 • Episode 3

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Join us for an enlightening episode that tackles the significant challenges of leadership during tough times. In this heartfelt conversation, Mark Bracknall interviews Craig Duell, the General Manager at SAFT, who shares his invaluable insights on managing the emotional and operational ramifications of site closures and redundancies. This episode delves into the heavy responsibilities that come with leading a workforce deeply impacted by change, offering a candid look into the complex landscape of leadership.

Craig's journey at SAFT is not just about the numbers; it's about the people behind those numbers. Tune in as he discusses the importance of fostering a strong community spirit, maintaining morale, and ensuring that communication channels remain open and empathetic. He reveals thoughtful strategies that leaders can adopt to provide support during transitions, emphasising the need to celebrate small wins even amidst hardship.

Moreover, the conversation explores the realities of complying with operational standards while facing evolving challenges in the manufacturing sector. Craig's perspective as a leader navigating these waters provides inspiration and practical takeaways for listeners, regardless of their level of experience.

If you're a leader or simply looking for ways to build resilience within your team, this episode is a must-listen. Discover how to lead with compassion, act with purpose, and create a culture that withstands adversity. Don’t forget to subscribe for more insightful discussions and share your thoughts with us after listening!

Please subscribe to the channel for more content! Theo James are a Manufacturing & Engineering Recruiter based in the North East, helping Manufacturing and Engineering firms grow across the UK. Please call us on 0191 5111 298

Speaker 1:

Hello and welcome to the episode of the Manifest and Lease podcast with me, mark Bracknell, managing Director of Theo James Recruitment. Today we welcome on Craig Jewell, the General Manager of SAFT. Often, after recording an episode, I will then plan the introduction. This one I'm not this one, I'm coming straight to shoot straight in the hip because it was probably one of my favorite ever episodes I've recorded, and that is no disrespect to any of my previous guests. This was just important, powerful and I'm so proud to record this and I want to thank Craig so much for taking the time to lift the bonnet of what goes on in a business which, unfortunately, is going through a site closure with obviously multiple redundancies, a business like Saft, which has been there since 1937, an absolute pillar of the South Shields community. This was an episode where we talked about everything that goes on how you still continue to need to win the hearts and minds of a business which, ultimately, everyone knows is about to close, how you go through that period and not only continue the culture it's built, but continue to build the culture, and that's what I was most impressed with. We talked about the whole process, from start to finish, and it was an episode where you're going to learn a lot from, both as an employer, employee and just general leader and someone looking to lead people through adversity. So thank you, craig, for recording this with me. It was powerful, it was important. It's going to help a lot of people. So please watch, listen, enjoy, whatever you want to do, and please, please, please, just like or subscribe. It really helps grow the channel, grow the show and help the industry. Thank you very much. I hope you enjoy.

Speaker 1:

Hello, welcome to an episode of the Manufacturing Leads podcast. So today we have Craig Jewell. Craig is the general manager of SAFT in South Shields. How are we, craig? All right, morning, mark, I'm fine, thank you, how are you?

Speaker 1:

Very good, mate, Very good, and I'm really looking forward to this one. We've got some real interesting, important things to talk about which are planned, and I'm really looking forward to it. But before we do that it's the first question I ask everyone that comes on what?

Speaker 2:

does it mean to you to be a leader? What does it mean to be a leader? A long journey usually, but I think, if I could sum it up, it's more often than not being in the 1% or doing the things that 1% of everybody does and not the other 99. Doing things differently, challenging the status quo, not being afraid of failure, taking people with you on a journey, as opposed to sort of sitting in an ivory tower.

Speaker 2:

You know being part of it, and I think celebrating success is important as well, because, especially now, uh, people can get overwhelmed very easily and not actually see the jobs that they're doing so well over the course of a period of time. You know so when you get into appraisal time and things like this, people don't sometimes realize what they've achieved, um, but often to show what good looks like when they're all we don't like, like this change. You know people don't like change, so it's always good to bring them with you along the way and you know if you can get the buy-in, then they'll come with you, and I think it's not just about being a leader, but it's actually having the success from the team that you build as well, something which I've had to do a couple of times over the course of my career and also my growth as well. So yeah, but it's about the people and bringing them with you.

Speaker 1:

Excellent. There's a couple of things I want to ask you about that. That's copped up when I was thinking there. That fear of failure it's interesting because I guess there's some debate over this. You know, should you ever lead with fear of failure as a leader? Is it all negative? Is there some positivity? Is that if you change there? Have you always thought that is not what you should do, or is that something that's evolved for you?

Speaker 2:

It's evolved for sure, because it comes with confidence as well, and I think you've got to take the challenges that come as opportunities, not be frightened to get into stretch zone. You know, don't go into panic mode. I was always sort of got good feedback for resilience and how you sort of kept going in the face of adversity at times, which is difficult, very, very difficult, or even the daunting things that you don't want to do. Recently came across someone who said you've got to swallow the frog, made his laugh, uh, and it stuck. These things stick with you, you know, um, you know grasp the nettle and all the other things are quite the common anecdotes. But uh, yeah, swallow the frog, get, get on with it and you know, whatever, whatever makes you stronger, um equips you for the next challenge.

Speaker 2:

So it's, it's daunting, but it's getting it over the next stage to say, right, I'll put that behind me next time. I'm not going to go into that with any sort of trepidation or I'm going to have the confidence, um, and I guess you've got to go in assuming that failure is not going to happen. You know you're not going to fail, it's not going to go wrong, um, if it does, it's. It's not what happens, it's what you do about it that happens thereafter. Um, you know, when people get a bit of confidence in what you're going to do about it, rather than say this has gone wrong, now what you know. So it's it's respond, not react. Keep calm, um, make sure there's there's some logic and rationale. Uh, of course, things can be blown out of proportion very easily and keep it consistent. Yeah, you know, that's important.

Speaker 1:

That stretch zone is interesting, isn't it? Because I completely agree. I think I sort of I didn't realize how important that stretch zone was, probably until the last couple of years. I think I was someone who did get anxious about situations and then suddenly realize I'm in this situation again. I don't feel anxious. I mean, a podcast is a good example. We're now on what? 95, 96, whatever it is. First couple of days I was, you know, thinking bloody hell, I can't do this. You know, this day I'm winging it now.

Speaker 1:

Now, I really look forward to my enjoying. So is that? Is that because it has stretched me to a level, without getting back to your point, before I now feel more confident in it? It's like that, isn't it?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, sure, absolutely, and the people as well, making them feel at ease and to open up and to have a sense of value, that they're part of something you know. And I think when you get a few confidence boosters and small wins under your belt, you can start broadening your horizons and getting a bit of impetus. And then people buy in and when you get the buy-in you get that support. So it kind of gives you the confidence as well. I mean not always, because sometimes you're going to make some very difficult decisions that people are not going to agree with.

Speaker 2:

As long as you've got the facts and the data and you articulate it in a way that it's professional but it's respectful as well, you generally get people to come and say, listen, I kind of understand why this is the case. I understand it's a business decision or it's strategic or political or whatever the reasons may be as to how it's come to that conclusion. And I think once you get that understanding, it's important that people understand why, as opposed to just we do this, we do that, because very often you know you people away with a sort of a big stick and if they don't understand why, then they're never going to, they're never going to buy in and they're never going to really give you that support back um. So I found that very important as well yeah, no, I agree, I think there's a.

Speaker 1:

There's a difference between justifying a decision you make and giving them clear transparency in terms of why you've made it, in the sense of what's in it for them. Isn't that that's the difference? Yeah, yeah, absolutely yeah. I'd like to take it a little bit back um, because you've had a tremendous career and your last employer you were at for 23, 24 years um that's right.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, since I was a little boy yeah, so it's uh, I always like know how people, because I think one of the issues now is there's not enough people coming to manufacturing um for whatever reason, which we can talk, discuss later but was it something you um fell into, wanted to do, pushed into what? How'd it come about?

Speaker 2:

oh, if I go back, I you'd go and show me age here 20, 25, 26 years. It's almost a lifetime really. I didn't know what to do. I didn't know what to do. It wasn't that I wasn't academic, but I wasn't particularly interested in being academic. I found it boring. I found it a little bit dictatorial. You know the system and let's call it the establishment. It didn't suit.

Speaker 2:

I was a bit not rebellious, but uninterested. I wanted to earn money, wanted to stand on my own two feet, didn't initially even want to go and do further education and university and the like. And you kind of wake up a little bit to think, well, how long am I going to be doing this for? Am I going to get married, have kids and everything else in your personal life? And then you realize you've got to have a purpose in life, um, for yourself, so kind of embarked on a decision that I would get off shift work and try and do something different and focus my attention on other things. Um, I was given a chance, um, you know, with where I was, to be fair, a couple of very good mentors that stick with us both internally and externally, few of who I still keep in touch with today and grateful for what I had back then, really Almost felt like I was plucked from obscurity at some stage. But I had to justify that and say, well, I'm going to prove myself now and say, listen, the door's open, let's make it an opportunity. So I went and did my AAT in accounting and plan to go down the accountancy route, without getting into the great detail.

Speaker 2:

It didn't materialize as I expected and then an internal chance came up with middle management, which wasn't kind of a picnic. It was a huge, big step and I remember being asked about moving into it and kind of said when and what, and it was next week. Oh, okay, so next night, right, let's go. And then you find yourself in charge of a team who you work for and people who have a lot of working service 30 years plus, really difficult. Strong characters, very, very good characters, really skillful people with lots of experience and actually working with them and getting part of it and earning the respect very difficult. So a long journey and then obviously moving on again into senior management and then getting to a point where you wonder what to do next and then the opportunity arose to grow again and move into a broader role, which is obviously the GM role I'm in now and represent the UK for the company that I'm with, and then, of course, with regards to the redundancy situation. So it's kind of been a really diverse, but a very, very interesting and challenging time.

Speaker 2:

So I guess you go back to the question. I'm not sure what it was I wanted to do, so I wouldn't say fell into it because I made the decisions at the time. Yeah, but making the best of it and not, you know, doing yourself justice, knowing that you're capable and trying to, you know, do a good job and and do right for the people who are working for you as well, and not become, you know, hypocritical or, you know, be a failure. Um, not that that's wrong, as I've mentioned, but have standards and have principles and morals that you're going to uphold to and be part of it professionally. So, as you grow, every day is a school day. I think is one of the things that I say very often to people and myself.

Speaker 1:

And you are someone who, for me, embodies everything a leader should. You are a classic, for me, inspirational leader where people will listen to and ultimately they will work with to the goal you put in front of them. A lot of people listening some of you listening might be not a manager looking to be a manager. They might be managing teams the first time you mentioned that and I think a lot of people get thrust into management without the necessary training. It still happens and they have to manage a team of people perhaps more experienced or or older than them, and that is a real challenge. Um, looking back, obviously you were thrust into it, so it's not something you planned for. Are there any lessons you learned there that that I guess you would either tell yourself those years ago or new people coming into it if you were to give people that advice now uh, a couple of things.

Speaker 2:

If I could sum it up in a couple of sort of bullet points, one would be don't care too much what people think, um, because you know if, if they wanted to be in your position, for example, they should have done something about it. Um, you know, people always like to complain and very quick to say why, me and? And become the victim. So don't be a victim, no matter what gets thrown at you. Not everybody gets the good end of the stick. I think that's certainly one. And the other thing is don't take anything for granted. Don't assume that because you've been given a position of authority or a stripe, that people are going to conform and automatically assume they're going to respect the position, but they're not necessarily going to respect the person that holds that position unless they have a respect for him, for that person, for for them.

Speaker 2:

Um, and I think that that has to be earned. You know you can't go and you don't go and buy that. You don't go and just say it's yours, it's. It has to be earned over time, over trust.

Speaker 2:

Um, you know where you're going to say you've, you're going to do what you say you're going to do, or certainly give it a really good crack at a whip. You know, give it a hundred percent and if you don't manage to do it, be the first to come back and say you know, I haven't quite done what I said I would here. This is the reasons why, or whatnot, not to make an excuse, but however, we'll do X, y or Z and just give that confidence. I was quite surprised and I'm not going to say lucky, but fortunate in that there was a lot of people who were long-termers in my early career, who did support us and helped us along the way. I must say You've got to put the miles on the bike but yeah, don't take anything for granted and make sure that the things that happen you take on the chin and when you're wrong, you know, stick your hands up. Yeah, which is hard, which is hard as well really good advice.

Speaker 1:

I'm fascinated by you. Know someone had been in an industry, a company, for 23, 24 years to then go straight into a very different sort of business. You know an industry-wide size, everything about it. How difficult was that? Or had you built up enough confidence in yourself enough and the strategy and process that it was just the same process, different business um, very, it was difficult and daunting, I think, would be the word.

Speaker 2:

I don't think it was difficult because you, by this point, you believe in, you're going to do a good job, you're going to add value to your business. Um, but I kind of had in my head there was, you know, I would say this to anyone really, the three p's. It was the process, the product and the people. Um, they're going to be different people, they're going to be different products and different processes. Uh, and in my case, a different market, really a totally different, you know, totally different setup from from the automotive industry. Um, and you've got to try and I managed to get that into a point that I'm fluent with it People, I would say pretty quickly, you can, you know, weigh up who's coming with you and who's not.

Speaker 2:

But when you get into the complexities of products and processes, you know you've got to try and not pretend you do know it all and not get carried away with things that you don't. You know you're not fully fluent with being guilty of it in the know. You're not fully fluent with, um, being guilty of it in the past, where you kind of you're talking about things you think this is not my field, it's an engineer needs to be speaking. It's technical, you know, it's scientific, it's whatever, or it's financial, um. So stick to what you know, um, and and kind of learn and be open-minded to you know. Plead the ignorant card. Why does this do that? What's this for you know? How does this work? Tell me, speak to the operators on the line, because they'll always give you it firsthand, um, you don't get it second, third hand there. They'll always tell you what's wrong and how it, what, what the the complexities are, what they have to live with every day. Um.

Speaker 2:

So I learned a lot from going to the shop floor, speaking to the people, and I think, from a process point of view and a product point of view, it's the application. Where is this going? Is this going onto a car wheel hub that might kill somebody if it's seized on a motorway? Has the people on the shop floor got that comprehension of what they're doing? Is it going into an aeroplane ejector seat that's going to take a pilot out in war? Uh, in which case you know where I'm at now. We were supplying, you know, batteries to do that. So, yeah, all the importance and the criticalities of application, so the three p's was was one thing that I kind of kept reciting until I got it and I wouldn't say I was fully there now because the it's such a broad spectrum in the field I mean that's a great answer and often on these episodes I feel like I'm I've got free training, I'm learning.

Speaker 1:

This is definitely one of them, and I think what I had taken that out of that is the importance of curiosity, because everything you're talking about there is not how necessarily to tell people what to do or to leave people. It's actually that beginning process of just being curious about them the process, how it works, and just understanding and learning before you start to teach, which I think is a great lesson.

Speaker 1:

Just absorb, you know, perfect um, something I think is important to talk about. I know we've obviously planned to talk about this and is obviously the the challenging times. You've seen the last 12 to 18 months and I think there's loads of positive stuff going on in the industry, but manufacturing, I would say I've seen, you know, probably potentially more redundancies, more site closures in the last nine months than we probably did see over COVID. Actually, it's been a real up and down time in the industry because there's some good stuff happening, but there's also a lot of difficult periods. Obviously, you have to have been and going through a very challenging time and redundancies and site closures.

Speaker 1:

It's not often talked about on platforms like this, but one of the reasons why I want to start this podcast is to is to is to create awareness and and um get people like yourself who are going to lead people and help people and and this is something I think would be really important to talk about. So I really appreciate you doing so. This has obviously been a really challenging time for SAFT and obviously going through D&C. If you wouldn't mind taking it right back to where you're comfortable with, but at the point where it got to a stage of uncertainty. What was that like? Because I imagine there's a period of time where there's a balance of certain information you can share the team, but also certain information you can't, and that's, I imagine, a very difficult period.

Speaker 2:

Yes, indeed, I mean, first and foremost from a business perspective, huge growth, still very, very good, an upward trajectory. I guess you get to a point where there's there's a small fish in a big pond, um, you know the turnover is not so high. Um, we are the only manufacturing plant in the uk, um, we've got four and a half thousand people worldwide doing 1.3 billion pounds worth of turnover. Four divisions, um, and still you is exponential. But I guess it got to a point where it was how competitive the UK market was. It became not so easy with regards to Brexit and the constraints that it brought with customs and excise taxation. Export licensing was key because of the ATEX and ITAR restrictions that we have on the products that we export. And you know some of the people weren't prepared to buy in and we lost a contract nearly worth 1 million euros to the MOD last year simply because of an export license. And you know it was very easy for the company to say that's not a problem, we can still supply it, but it wasn't going to be coming from the UK. So it didn't matter to the overall picture, but it certainly took a huge 10% or 12% hit on turnover in the UK and I think if you couple that with the national minimum wage, which has gone crazy in the last three years, it's just relentless. I think we're going to be up at 1240, something now, 1244, something in April, and it costs you six figures a year. And then, depending on your margin even with a 50% margin you've got to find another quarter of a million pounds worth of sales to offset that. And that's before you get into the other costs as well, like materials and things like that. So there was a lot of little things conspiring against it.

Speaker 2:

Um, and then you've got to decide. You look at the critical science and say is it really feasible? Is it really viable? What's the ebitda going to be in the bottom line from p and l for the year? Um, how long can it last before we come out the other side? And the only way you can do it really is by flooding it with more and more turnover to absorb the costs. And when you've got a site like this, which has been here since 1937, you then got to look at CapEx and how much investment you're going to need and what's the return on that investment.

Speaker 2:

Very quickly, if the maths don't add up over a period of time it's a case of, well, it's not feasible, it's not competitive, and it becomes very difficult. We were kind of at a break-even point. Really, it wasn't really drastic if you look at it coldly, but I think from a bigger picture point of view, you become an expensive commodity. And then, of course, the, the hierarchy, you have a look at it in a different light and say, well, you know, is it really necessary to have this, this facility there? You know, how could we do it differently?

Speaker 2:

Um, and there's been some considerable improvements, if I'm, if I'm honest, um, especially from where I've just been, uh, with the group, so a huge, you know, evolution really, uh, not certainly not going backwards, but going forwards, and it just wasn't going to be able to be part of that. So it was a difficult, if it was a difficult pill to swallow, but I could understand the business case. You know, it wasn't anybody had failed, it wasn't anybody's fault. Lots of things were external, influential factors out of control that we couldn't sort of, and that's another thing. You know, worry about what you can control. When it's out of your control, all you can do is deal with the, with the process really, which is what we've done over the last, last year, and what we're continuing to do now.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, you're absolutely right, and I think, I think manufacturing is probably at, and will be at, one of the most challenging times because those two things well, the national minimum wage and the way the increase is difficult enough because obviously manufacturing lends itself to that minimum wage-esque shop floor, but actually it's much more than that. It's the gap, then, between the next people and the next people and the next people, and how you bounce that out, there's so much at play. It really is.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it very quickly erodes any differential with your staff and your engineering and then you get into your technical side of things and your middle management and then it becomes a much higher cost because the margins are bigger and it becomes a problem and it causes unrest and unease. It's certainly not easy. In the middle of all that you've generally got non-staff who are members of unions, who are then looking at pay rises and pay talks and things. So that was another hurdle that we had to do, even in light of what was going on. You know, still dealing with the pay award, you know which can't be. It has to be done. You know that's what we awarded.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely yeah, and akin to your point as well. There, I completely agree that and I think that's where you learn as leaders. You go on there to try to not get stressed over things you can't control. I had this conversation yesterday about, you know, the NI change and that is going to really hurt. You know that's for a 100 strong company manufacturing that's best part of 100 grand straight off your bottom line.

Speaker 1:

No one planned for it and I think it's interesting because when the announcement came out there was immediate reaction with our volume in recruitment because I think companies went oof. We've got to find this now and it's probably going to have to come internally. The growth we were going to make. We're not going to grow, but actually our volumes have been really high in the last couple of months and I think, despite the fact that it hasn't come into play yet it comes into April the Cumbys now know what they're playing with and either have made decisions or will, because you can make decisions with the facts, whether they're good or bad. You can make decisions and I think the Cumbys are now acting on it. But it's the interim. It's like COVID, isn't it? When COVID happened and before furlough was a thing, that was the scariest time ever. When it, whenever, when it comes out, you can make decisions. So I think I completely agree At the point where you know that you knew that was going to happen.

Speaker 1:

You mentioned that in terms of Saffner's been there since the 1930s in South Shields. It's embedded itself in his community. It's right on the beach. You know it is absolute pillar of everything that South Shields is all about, that community piece. A lot of people have worked there for a long time To break that news or to start to unravel that. What was that like for you as a leader? And I guess psychologically.

Speaker 2:

How did you deal with that? Yeah, difficult, very difficult. You're dealing with hearts and minds. You're right, it's not just careers, it's generations of people. It was acquired by SACT in 2001, but many of these people had worked here for decades. I think the longest server we had was 47 years, which is a lifetime it is literally. And there's family members as well, so you've got sisters and in-laws and the like. So it's not just one person, it's it's it's families of people that were affected.

Speaker 2:

Um, and for me personally, kind of being on what would I class as both sides of the coin. Now, where you've been in that situation, where you've been put at risk, and then where you're actually making people redundant, um, you've got to have the the bit of humility and say, well, how do we do this respectfully, um, how do we do it compliantly, legally? And you don't, you know, someone doesn't ring up and say the company is going to close and that's it. It's very much a case of we go into a stage of consideration because of the optics and then, of course, you go through a meaningful consultation process. That is multiple stages. It's not straightforward. Some of that is individual, some of it's collective. You have the union aspect as well, and it takes a lot of time. It takes a lot of time to get through the diligence and to make sure that you're not going to be getting all of this recourse afterwards legally. Personally, you've got to look after the brand. You've got to ensure that you're part of a big global group and you don't want to be causing any unrest. You don't want unwanted media coverage and social media coverage as well, and the rest of it and press. So all of this communication has to be dealt with in a head of what if, what if, what if. We took myself and the management team went through a couple of days where we were sort of doing question and answer potential hypothetical just to make sure we were all on the same page and make sure everybody's got the same message. There was no ambiguity. Um, people were aware and and not in the dark. Um, and if they were asking a certain question, they were given the answer. It was consistent. They weren't getting told three different messages.

Speaker 2:

Um, the huge social impact, you know, because I think, to sum it up without all of the detail, you know you're going to have these 40-odd year people who are about to retire and say, well, how much do I get? When do I leave? And they're quite happy to probably not happy, but content that it's come to an end. And then you've got the other side of the spectrum, where you have people working with these people who have been here maybe less than two years and not entitled to any redundancy pay, uh, are in the late 20s, maybe have little young kids and a mortgage, and you know they could be in the talking to one another and it's, you know, massive, massive difference in spectrum and there's not much consideration given up to the next person. Well, I'm going to retire, I get x and I'm out with, I'm going on a holiday home or whatever, yeah, and this person stood dejected, wondering where the next move is.

Speaker 2:

So it's you, it's a broad spectrum of emotion and then you go through all the emotional ego states. You get the disappointment, you get the anger. Um, some of them are happy. Um, some of them are bitter, some of them are asking why? So you get all of this till? They kind of come round to there's a resentment and they come back round to a case of accepting what the situation is.

Speaker 1:

Apologies for interrupting this episode with a very quick announcement about my business. Theo James are a specialist talent provider specifically to the manufacturing and engineering sector. I'm incredibly proud of what we've achieved since our inception in 2015. We specialize in roles from semi-skilled trades right the way up to our TJ Exec search arm of the business. Both on the contract and permit side, we offer both bespoke one-off campaigns for hard-to-fill roles or a full partnership service where we become an extension of your business. For any information, please get in touch with me or the team. I hope you enjoy the rest of the episode.

Speaker 2:

Thank you. And then, as the time ticks by and the day comes to leave, it becomes real and it kind of dawns on them and it becomes more emotional and they're saying goodbye to colleagues of decades, et cetera, some of which are going into new jobs, you know, but some are not. So very diverse, very emotional. I think you've got to have an element of emotional intelligence when you're dealing with it, because not everyone's the same, but you've still got to have that level of consistency that keeps it right. So, very difficult balance, and notwithstanding the fact that you've got, in this case, you know, 130, 140 customers who were asking where the next product's going to come from, and there's going to be a demand, but how are you going to deliver it? So all this to take into consideration, so, uh, very challenging, but, um, very, you know, um, very, very valuable experience. That's the only way I could really term it. I wouldn't class it as enjoyable by any means, but yeah, so very, very challenging.

Speaker 1:

Because, you're right, you've still got a business to run. You've still got a business to run and you've still got clients demanding clients, and you've got a workforce Because that's it. People just presume that everyone who is under threat of redundancy is going to be doom and gloom and looking for new roles. But actually that, like you say, there's people have been there for a long time thinking, well, this is, I've now got a retirement package. I wasn't expecting and you know, try to keep trying, I imagine, trying to keep those, the whole team motivated by different reasons. You get back to the right start, don't you? That sort of shared goal piece Difficult because you know most people at that stage might be on the beach a little bit literally, thank you. And then you've got those people who are dejected and, you know, obviously looking for new opportunities. I also, in this market, where there's still a skill shortage, there's still a lot of good people in demand. Yes, a real tough job on your hands, I imagine, to sort of keep those people motivated to that goal.

Speaker 2:

Yes, we had to find a balance. Who do we need when to do certain job specifics? You know, this is where your skill matrices come in handy, and who can do what? What flexibility do you have, um? And this is before you end up issuing your last buy to customers, um, who would then have to be transferred to the chinas, to the americas, to the israels and frances and european sites, um, and I think at that point you kind of have an idea of what you need.

Speaker 2:

You don't know how long you need them for and what date you could, you know, and it's very difficult to put somebody at risk of redundancy, but then say, but you can't leave until X because we've got to do this. You know they're just going to. They're going to obviously say, well, if I find a job, I'm going to be on my way and you can't blame them for that. You know they have to do what they've got to do and we'd all do the same. So you've got to try and say listen, this is the situation. We understand your situation. However, we've got to do X, y or Z, and there isn't a one-size-fits-all. It's just not going to happen. It's never going to encompass everything that you need.

Speaker 2:

We did open up a voluntary severance scheme, which was, I wouldn't say helpful, but it allowed a much smoother transition with regards to the people and being released and whatnot. Pleased to say that we've managed to successfully transfer 129 customers without loss Excellent, which is, you know, you couldn't have even imagined it possible at the time. You're very daunting because you think you're going to start losing face with things and especially when you've got customers like the MOD, you know they need to be satisfied and you don't want to be in bad press. So that was an excellent result. And then you've got, of course, this potential of of recourse and if you don't do something right or you don't do it respectfully, you've got people who could be leaving the business, who who end up with you know, retrospective claims and things like because they haven't been treated properly, um. So it's, excuse me, it's just making sure that it's all done, you know, compliantly, uh and respectfully, um. And the only way you can do it is by taking the people with you and making sure they're going to buy in, which is very, very.

Speaker 2:

It's a hard sell when you're closing a plant, but at the same time, it's getting the balance right for what you need, which luckily, has been done very well and very cleanly with the team. So I'm thankful of that, obviously not of the situation, but in terms of the task, I think it's been well-balanced, well-planned, well-executed and, as you say, everybody's different, so people go in all kinds of different directions, but the skill set was a bespoke kind and you couldn't just go and grab people from anywhere to suddenly do the job. So it was very, very difficult. But yeah, overall quite pleased with that, with the way that's gone. But that was the hardest thing. Do you tell people first? Do you tell customers first?

Speaker 2:

if you tell customers first, you have a panic buy. If you tell people first, you could have a mass exodus. You know, but really no right answer to that. It's just do your homework and do the bit and do what you feel, what your gut is, and get it and try and get it right and damage limitation really yeah, yeah, I think best testament I can say well for for saft and and the community that it's built over the years.

Speaker 1:

But obviously you've built since you've been as a leader. I hope you don't mind me sharing this but we um, we obviously run a, a walk um every year for charity, for prevention of suicide, and I was blown away because at the time where we did the walk last year it was right in the middle of everything going on and stuff and people find out they've been made redundant. I was so unbelievably impressed by the way your team came together and you know any donations are an amazing donation but as a business, of all the businesses that donated collectively, Saft raised the most between the team and I just thought at the time you were going through where people would have been worried, you know for.

Speaker 1:

Christmas and all this type of stuff. I was amazed. So that that's special, isn't it, to have built something like that? I think yeah.

Speaker 2:

It's credit to the to have built something like that. I think, yeah, it's credit to the characters who were involved and who took part. In light of everything in the adversity, still doing something for such a good cause and in good spirit as well, kind of setting aside their issues to focus and do what you um and actually contribute to that cause, was credit to them. And that's not the only thing. You know. They've given um donations to food banks and coffee mornings for macmillan cancer and um we've done things on the internal internet where we've posted this. What we've done as a site um, we had a uh, even at easter, you know collection of easter eggs and things, and more recently I've just given a load of um hardware, of it hardware, to to a local charity as well.

Speaker 2:

That was going to be kind of defunct um, so we got the it to wipe them and get them all ready and they were I think there was 19 pcs and monitors and keyboards and all this that could be put to good use. Um, and the people were so pleased to see it go somewhere, you know, because there's nothing worse than seeing a skip outside and things going in. It's soul-destroying really. So to see things being put to good use for people who need it, you know, and the charities was just fab and, like I say credit to them, they even pulled Christmas forward because there was 29 people left the business in November and they asked listen, we still want to celebrate Christmas, can we put a tree up, can we have a Christmas jumper day? And can we do this? And why not?

Speaker 2:

There was no safety risk and we were really nearly about done ceasing trade. So we arranged that, which they were very grateful for, and carried it out in good spirit, and photographs, and I'm sure they've took away many good memories from it and said remember, when we were doing this or this, that was when we were there and sadly, it was when they were made redundant, but we did everything we could with regards to that. So it wasn't just the charity, it was also about the people here as well. We did everything we could with regards to that. So it wasn't just the charity, it was also about the people here as well, and it was brilliant buy-in, brilliant.

Speaker 1:

Really Credit to them. How important looking back now and obviously, how important has that been Because on this hand you've got the adversity we're going through how important has it been building that community and putting that community piece as so important, because I don't think every business would do that. I think they would just go into pure business mode and almost forget that, because sometimes businesses do things because they think they should, for the culture.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

This is very different.

Speaker 2:

Very different. I half expected a SWAT team to come in, you know, but we were. We were allowed to get on with it. The business has been so successful in the past that 99 of the four and a half thousand employees right up to the ceo hadn't shut a plant. So it was very unique in that we were given. It sounds perverse, but it was the opportunity to close the plant with the, the team that we had, um, and when you get that sort of news, when you're going through these, these emotions and this uncertainty, and then, of course, the decision, um, even members of your senior team, your project team, who you would like to think, with a team that's going to complete the project, um, there was a member who left and said I need some security, you know, and that's fine, that's, that's up to that individual.

Speaker 2:

But you then got to replace them um, shortly before I was informed of any, any consideration or even um, you know any, any doubt about the decision. The fc, the financial controller. It issued his letter of retirement and give us three months notice. You know perfectly normal circumstances. But then you then say, well, how do I find a financial controller? How do I find an ops manager or a HSE manager or a HR manager. How do you find one of these key players and not just find them? How do you then sell the job to them to bring them on board, knowing that they've got a fixed-term contract and it's not going to be forever and somebody could come and snap them up? So we managed to do that. Between the ops manager and myself, we secured two seniors to come on the A team who have done a fantastic job, still with us today on fixed-term contracts and they've formed a third of the A team.

Speaker 2:

That was the hardest for me. That was one of the hardest things of the whole thing to get it done correctly with the right people. So, yeah, I think it's really important that we do get that sort of mindset, that behavior, uphold the standards and, if anything, talking about this from a safety point of view, it's almost having heightened awareness. When you're doing the abnormal normal and the day job becomes decommissioning and things, then you have to have heightened awareness to the safety side of things. So, if anything, it becomes more on the forefront. So, yeah, it was challenging but again, and Dave even said and credit to the team had they been in a different situation, they wished they were staying with the team. Had they been in a different situation, they wished they were staying with the company. So what better compliment can you have than that, really. So you know, it just shows it does.

Speaker 1:

And there's so many lessons for people to learn who are leaders within businesses, how important that culture but just actually building that community is and coming together through time diversity and obviously I know you went through, you know some real deep adversity. You know, during that period as well, you know difference of redundancy which I imagine was incredibly challenging to try to keep morale to a level where business was still ticking boxes and hitting goals.

Speaker 2:

I imagine yeah, yeah, you've got to be realistic and pragmatic and say, well, there's corporate a level where business were still ticking boxes and hitting goals. I imagine, yeah, you've got to be realistic and pragmatic and say, well, there's corporate challenges and there's things that come at you. There's compliance things like BSI audits, 45,000 and more, and 14,000 and more. They're up for renewal in November and you're ceasing trade the end of November. Are we really going to go and get accredited for another year knowing that? So you've got to make these decisions. But equally, you've still got to have things like Legionella compliance checks done and we've actually got a power source to the national grid here that needs access and we've got a key side location out the other side of the plant, so in the boundary wall and the like. So there was still things that had to be upheld. And because you're dealing with a lot of harmful substances and special waste, all of the historical waste and consumable items that needed to be taken away, whether it would be recycled or incinerated, disposed of, collected all had to be risk assessed, all had to be done. And still, while you're doing the day-to-day so you're right, you know it, it's not normal, um, and you're kind of going into the unknown. But then it's.

Speaker 2:

I guess that somewhere you say then there's, that's another opportunity to say, well, I've not done this before, I'll tackle this.

Speaker 2:

And it's another little project within a project. You know, I always said there was, there was five pillars to the whole, the whole thing, um, it was like a strategy house of the five pillars with a roof on um, there was the social aspect, there was the commercial aspect, um, industrial side of things, the environmental side of things, and then, most importantly, at the end, the financial and the budgets. And is it on time, is it in budget? Um, and has it been done cleanly so? And then, if you do all that and you get a smooth transition, um, so there was lots of presentations and mission statements and how we were going to go about things and keeping, keeping the uh, the corporate world, informed, what we were doing, because, as I say, it was, it was new ground for them, and I've my message to them, uh, last week was that be grateful for what you're part of and the success you've you've had and got, because what you don't want to do is be going through a cyclosure and redundancy through no fault of your own, you know. Yeah 100.

Speaker 1:

I know we spoke about before, but I think it's so important for you as a leader isn't to keep to your values and you mentioned there. There's still the importance of the quality piece, the health and safety piece and with all this going on, you know you need to stretch your emotional intelligence side to it. You know much more than the average day-to-day. A lot of people will be forgiven for neglecting that side to it, but actually, ultimately, you still run a manufacturing business where you know mistakes can happen and all this type of stuff can go wrong. So that must have been difficult to go. This is still very important to me. I need to make sure that we can do it.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's easy for people to turn off. People say, well, it doesn't matter anymore. Because of why should we? Because of who cares? What am I getting out of it? What's the point? It's futile. So it's defeatist, and it's instilling the fact that hang on, do the right thing even when no one's looking. Go home. Go home knowing that you've, you've done your best.

Speaker 2:

Um lie straight in bed on a night. You know that you haven't, you haven't sort of winged something that's going to come and bite your backside later on. Uh, not easy, um, especially when people like I say they haven't got the buy-in, but um managing to see why. That's important. And it's not about the task, it's the morals and principles of the standards of the person. Um, yeah, you know, would you do this at school? Would you do this at home? Would you do this if you were in a hotel or in the supermarket? You know um. So if the answer is no, then then don't do it. Do it now, you know. Keep, keep it right for as long as you need to. As long as you're a custodian of the company, you're being paid to do a job, do it to the best of your ability, knowing that you've closed it off and you wouldn't have done it any differently had it would been a normal day. Um, and as far as I can see, uh, you know, 99.9 percent of that's being done, but it's actually being done with more diligence and heightened awareness, which is good and credit to the, to the team as well.

Speaker 2:

Some of the people um, quite a bit of a sad side to all this is is another, another kind of unknown, uncharted waters. Um, in the middle of the uh, the year we, we had a death in service um, again, something that you don't, not that you wanted, and you don't get it every day, um, and this guy was a key player. You know he's a facilities guy and knew new, he knew things we didn't know, he knew you know um, so it was. You'd get questions about things and think, well, we need, we need to find out that, because we're not sure and I'm talking drainage, gas, switches on the switchboard for the electrics and the circuits, stopcocks, gas oil, anything, pressures, hydraulics, pneumatics, all of the things that you need.

Speaker 2:

And then we were on a Teams call one Friday actually discussing a machine transfer, a huge machine to china, um, an intercompany transaction, but you know, huge, huge bit of plant and equipment. Um, that was brand new and in the box and it was heading over to china. Um, we were talking to the chinese team on the morning and come the monday morning, um ops guy came in to my office and shut the door and I'm not sure what how to say this. He said, oh, what's happened? And I said this guy's dead. Wow, no, and he was. He was in his mid forties. So you don't expect it as such. It's a shock.

Speaker 2:

You've got to plug that gap for what he was going to do as part of the job.

Speaker 2:

But then you've got to deal with again another round of emotions, because he's been with the company 10, 12, 13 years. People have worked with him each day, so that to get that news is a real, a real blow, a real, a huge blow to the, to the people who've worked with him over the period of time you know. And then you've got to pick up all the loose ends with that, so that's not easy. And then of course, you've got all of the other things that go with it and funerals and things. So the HR managers taken out of the social side of the project to deal with this death in service, which was obviously tragic, but you just couldn't write it. You know you couldn't make it up and you've got to be quite flexible and adaptable, to think on your feet and continue that focus that you don't get carried off with something you know you keep on track and you deal with it as you need to. So very, very difficult Another challenge for the team, but, yeah, staying calm and measured again.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I imagine you know your look back at this last couple of years and and probably pinpoint is that as the some of the most important years of your leadership journey. Imagine you know some of the stuff, some of the challenges you've had to face and a lot of this. There's no textbook for stuff like that is there, you know you lot of this.

Speaker 2:

There's no textbook for stuff like that is there. You know you can't go. This is happening. You've got to live it. You don't not. You want to live it, but you can't sort of simulate it it's something you sort of emotion.

Speaker 1:

You live it, yeah, yeah, yeah. How do you? How do you deal with the? Because I think a lot of people, we included, struggle with the pressures of needing to be that person to give answers or, when things go wrong, not panicking or or you know to to show that confidence that everything's okay. How do you deal with that? Is that something you? You deal with? And decompress that outside of work.

Speaker 2:

Is it? Oh sure, yeah, I mean you've got to find a coping mechanisms and and things. I mean, years gone by, I regularly had Reiki treatment for a period of time, which I found almost like a reset, emotional and physical. Further down the line, I was cycling, running, walking, got a dog, various things, I think, a multitude of things that kind of help your brain, switch off, um from the 24, 7, um demands of what you've got, um, but at the same time you've got to. You know, like everybody, you've got your family, you've got your health, and if you've got your health, you're, you're rich.

Speaker 2:

You know, I see so many people who, who have capitulated or haven't got what they needed because the health, whether it's physical or mental, has succumbed to pressure or they've had a. You know, people have bereavements in life and then they've never been the same again or they've encountered issues with mental health. Um, and, and you do again, you don't want to live that because you don't know what they're going through. Um, so it's the coping mechanisms, uh, fresh air, I always say the three, five doctors, uh, of the sleep or the water, the fresh air, the exercise, you know, forget what. The sun's up, sunlight, the other one, um. And if you get all that uh in good measure and you're getting a good night's sleep and you're getting hydrated and you're getting your exercise, you know you're not stressed, you're not anxious, you're not depressed, you're grateful for the simplistic things that's in life. You're not striving for the next car or whatever it is, and you try and remain focused on you yourself, your person. You become a better person for it and you appreciate the, the smaller things. So when things do go wrong, you tend to be able to deal with it a little bit easier than where. If you were 100 miles an hour and the world's going to end and everything's, you know you're under stress.

Speaker 2:

I think calm equals control. It's like anything the minute you start shouting, minute you start losing control, that calm, you've lost control. But I think anybody would tell you that and anybody who was true to themselves would say the time they lost control was when they lost the temper or they weren't calm and they weren't thinking rationally, logically. You know they're just sort of coming out with things that are going to be more detrimental to the problem. So again, not easy. But people say I saw something a while ago about your diet. It's not just what you eat, it's what you read, it's what you hear, it's who you speak to, it's who you deal with and who you associate with. So that's your diet, not just the food that goes into your mouth. You know, and that's what makes you. And I think it's true.

Speaker 2:

I do because people have negative influences on you. People burden you with lots of emotional baggage and you've got to decide if these are going to have a positive or a negative influence. Do you want to be part of it or not? And I don't mean do you want to go out getting drunk every weekend or be part of the Sunday League football team or whatever, or going for a running, a marathon. It has to be what's right for you. What's your interest, who, who you, who can you relate to? Who's going to give you that advice without, without having an ulterior motive? Um, you know, don't take criticism from someone. You wouldn't take advice from things like that, you know, because people want to put you down or whatever. So lots of things.

Speaker 1:

But you just go, try and get your mind straight and, um, like I say, for me it's a lot of it's physical exercise that has a that sort of fit body, fit mind sort of thing, and it's not always 100, but it goes a long way I think that it's a that's a lovely place to to close the episode, because I think, if I reflect this and it's been one of my favorite episodes um recorded, because I think it's it's been so important because, as as we said right at the start, these uh are a sequence of events that people don't tend to talk about, but the sequence events that happen a lot and people can learn from. And I think it was important for you to people to hear that end bit because, actually, good leaders aren't robots. They aren't robots that read books and and nothing's black and white. Things change on a daily basis.

Speaker 1:

Some of things you've had to to go through, you know which you didn't plan for or or want. You have to act and you have to act on on instinct, but you have to act on what's good for the business, what's good for you, what's good for the people, and that's good for you, what's good for the people, and that's a real challenging thing to go through. But ultimately, I think what I know, what you've done and what staff have done in this time, is amazing because you've continued to not only keep but continue to build that community. So people will look back at their time, whether that be two years or 40 years of business, and think I'm really proud of what we did there.

Speaker 1:

So I just want to thank you for that yeah, exactly that and how much you've achieved. So I just want to thank you so much for being the leader today and talking to us about these things, craig, because it'll help a lot of people and it was really inspirational. So thank you, mate.

Speaker 2:

No, no problem, Appreciate it and, as I say, it's not a pleasant experience, but it's very valuable. And the last thing I would say was, whatever comes at you in terms of a challenge, try and use it as an opportunity and take the best of it. Make the best of what you've got where you are, and that's all you can do. Got where you are and that's all you can do. You know, that's all you can do within your control to open the doors, to furnish you with the skills that you need to move forward. So yeah, but thank you very much, mark, appreciate it.

Speaker 1:

Thank you, mate. Thanks mate. That was class. That was no word of a lie. That was probably my favourite episode I've recorded Really really good, just just just, yeah, just so much tangible stuff, but real inspirational stuff that way, because you know these are tough things to talk about and I think there's a misconception of redundancies. People just go, my husband don't care, they'll be fine. Do you know what I mean? And I just think you've debunked so much of that that you know it's being a leader going.

Speaker 1:

This is it's the hardest job in the room, it's as simple as that for sure you've got your own future to think about and everyone else's, and people just just don't really think that what about me?

Speaker 2:

what about me?

Speaker 1:

yeah, exactly, who do I?

Speaker 2:

who do I ring up for?

Speaker 1:

yeah, exactly 100%, so, 100%, so no amazing man. That was class. Really, really really enjoyed that. So thank you. Thank you so much for listening or watching this episode of the Manufacturing Leaders Podcast. Please just like or subscribe. It really helps grow the show and obviously improve the industry.

Speaker 1:

If you want any more information about Theo James, as I mentioned midway through the episode, please get in touch with me or the team. I would love to talk about how it can help you directly or your business. We are more than just a recruiter and I know people say that, but it's something I'm incredibly passionate about. We are in business for much more than just a bums on seats approach. We want to help people grow, we want to help improve their lives and, ultimately, I want to work with businesses and people who share the same values as we do, and that's something I'm incredibly passionate about. So please, if that is you and you are passionate about that dream role or passionate about your people, please get in touch with me or the team. I would absolutely love to talk a bit more detail. Thank you very much. Speak soon.