Manufacturing Leaders

Mark Cholmondeley: Emotionally Intelligent Leadership is the Key to Building a Positive Culture, a Founders Journey!

• Mark Bracknall • Season 10 • Episode 4

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Mark Cholmondeley the Managing Director of Libellum, shares his journey from contractor to business leader, providing insights into the challenges and rewards of entrepreneurship. The episode centres around the importance of business culture, leadership style, and the philosophy of empowering teams.

• Transitioning from contractor to business owner 
• The significance of hiring the right team 
• Leadership styles that foster growth 
• Building a company culture focused on respect 
• The impact of imposter syndrome on entrepreneurs 
• Long-term goals for business development 
• The role of mentorship and apprenticeship in growth 
• Strategies for navigating business challenges 
• The legacy of family and future vision 


Please subscribe to the channel for more content! Theo James are a Manufacturing & Engineering Recruiter based in the North East, helping Manufacturing and Engineering firms grow across the UK. Please call us on 0191 5111 298

Speaker 1:

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Manufacturing Leaders Podcast with me Mark Bracknell, marketing Director of Theo James Recruitment. In today's episode we welcome Mark Chumley, the Marketing Director of Labellum, based in Teesside. I thoroughly enjoyed this episode. It was probably one I hijacked. It was more of a conversation between two small business owners and we just talked about the growth of small businesses, what it's like to go from, in Mark's case, a contractor into making a decision to start and grow his own business, the importance of culture, training, essentially treating people and managing people right with respect and flexibility, and it's one of those episodes you're going to learn quite a lot from in that respect. But this is an episode where two people are just talking about the challenges but also the great things about owning a business, and in Mark's case, we talked a lot about his values and his reasons for leading a business and growing a business, which ultimately wants his 16-year-old son to join at some point, which I thought was a fantastic target to have.

Speaker 1:

So please sit back and watch and listen. Please, as ever, do me honour just clicking that like and subscribe button. It really helps grow the show and the channel. So thank you very much. I hope you enjoyed the episode, perfect Right. A warm welcome to Mark Chumley, the MD of Labellum, based in Teesside. How are you, mark? How are we doing?

Speaker 1:

I'm good thanks you yes very good and thank you very much for coming on here today. I'm looking forward to going through your growth. I really enjoy the growth of a business from its infancy seven years ago. So before we dig into that, the first question is the same question. I ask everyone what does it mean to you to be a leader?

Speaker 2:

um, what does it mean to you to be a leader? It's multiple things, I think the short answer is so whatever you're setting down is how to do things. That as a business, that's how you do it. You kind of I'm a bit more of a leader by example than I am a leader of words, um, which frustrates a lot of the team, but it's the way I do it. I think if we set and agree something, that's how we're going to do it.

Speaker 2:

But I think a leader for me is I always remember the comment of I want to be the dumbest person in the room. So if I'm bringing people in on my team, I want people smarter than me, and then my job is really to bring out. I brought them into the business for a reason it's to bring out. I brought them into the business for a reason it's to bring out their strengths, what they're going to bring to us and what also I can do to help develop them on areas that they're not so strong on um. So it's kind of twofold. It's sort of setting examples and developing the team and letting them express their skills and experience that they've got yeah, love that.

Speaker 1:

I wish I'd learned the um the dumbest person in the room a bit earlier actually, because it's interesting, because you mentioned that leaving leaving from the front and and then that which they link. But actually sometimes it can almost be a juxtaposition, that, and I think I felt that because you want to leave the front and I think when you first start business, you just presume well, I presume that was just doing everything, doing any showing that. But actually you're right, true leadership is recruiting the right people, getting out of the way and allowing people to be better. Better at you are at things, and that's hard at first, isn't it?

Speaker 2:

It's difficult. It is and it's hard to let go of them, especially how we started my vision for the business. There's no one here as it is now that letting go element and bringing people in. I've never been bothered in personal or work life of somebody knowing more or being better at something than me. That's never bothered me. But then it's letting them go on because it is so personal to you it's letting them take a lead into it.

Speaker 2:

They're coming into your name. They're representing the vellum when they're out and about or speaking to people. It has been challenging.

Speaker 1:

I'm not going to lie with that yeah, it's that trust thing, but I think you find once you do find those people, those people just get it. That's such an unbelievable feeling, isn't it? That's uh, but that that that took me a long time to feel like that probably took me five years. Really, it's uh, it's a challenging one.

Speaker 2:

Um, what um I think I'm probably about the same. The time scale of coming through that and it's took some challenging conversations off the guys, yeah, and once you realize that they're only really there to help you and help the business, they're not trying to have a negative impact on it, they want to take work pressure off me. They want to do what they do as a job. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, it took a while as well.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it does, and that's through. They will see you as a leader leading from the front and I think once they see you leading from the front, like you say, they want to take that stress away from you and make your job easier, and that that can be a difficult transition. So I completely get that. Um, briefly, tell us a little bit. A little bit about labellum, uh, please, context um labellum is a company.

Speaker 2:

We predominantly do non-destructive testing and inspection. As part of that, we offer quality management services around BSE 1019, 9001, those types of things it all links in. Where we are now is just to help a business in all their quality issues or systems or client-specific needs. It's quite a thing now, and it has been for some time, that you kind of need that independence and impartiality. So it's a third party that's often used for that, which is good in a lot of ways because we can do things to the standards and correctly and we don't have a boss even though clients are technically our bosses a boss that we have to go. Yes, yes, okay, we'll do that. We can stand back a little bit, um. So it's quite difficult to put all our services into one. I've had a challenging time this last six months putting the brochure together because I don't want to be too big, but it's basically around any quality issues that a business may find that deliver their product or service.

Speaker 1:

Okay, I'm with you. Tell me through the decision in terms of going from a contractor. And I think there's a lot of people in that boat where they might be contracting and earning good money and they've got a lot of work on board, but they have that itch to build something, whether that be financial, whether that be for legacy or to pass something down, whatever the reason is. People get to that stage where they think I think I can build a business here. Most don't. Most stay as contractors. What was it about you that you thought I want to give this a go?

Speaker 2:

It's something I've thought about for a long time and previous positions and the positions I was in sorry previous companies and the positions I was in sorry previous companies and the positions I was in and as a job or what I was doing, it's basically running projects and running jobs anyway. Um, I've always had that bit of an itch to do something myself. Um, always believed I can do it, which I think is important, but in all honesty, I kind of kidded myself in the beginning. Through COVID, I have 35. If I can be happy getting 40 hours a week for myself jobbing around Teesside at home every night, bringing in decent money, that was my first goal, but I think that it sort of gets the better of you and it's well. I've started that now. So why don't I push on to the next bit? Or why don't I look at this? And I think also on the other side of it, you forget who you know, who knows you, the reputation you've built over working for the companies where things start to come your way. I'm quite a big believer in right place, right time. I think things happen for a reason and that at the time might not feel like the right path, but it ends up and you as a person decide how you want to make that outcome from the path that you've been given. Um, I think if I'm honest, because that's been a good few years ago now it was probably two years ago when I went right, this is the time to go.

Speaker 2:

We were at the time when I decided I was renting desk space off a client, um, quite happy in that relatively small um. For whatever reason, we parted ways and we both moved out of that place. So I had to look at somewhere else to go. I thought, well, I could look at a desk space somewhere in an innovation centre, or I could look at getting our standalone premises, making it what we want and pushing it on. And I think it was at that point I realised I want to go for it and I've kind of kidded myself for the last couple of years of what I want from this. Now is the time to really push and have a go.

Speaker 2:

We've been very sort of acute with it. We haven't overreached, we haven't ploughed everything straight back in. It has been going as the means demand. We've not used any loans or anything like that. It's all been sort of self-generated through the business, which has meant we've done, in terms of our certain people, the right way. I think what has caught us out is the rapid growth that we had. Once they've decided that and we went right, let's go. The rapid growth catches you out. You can't go too big too quickly.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, and that is absolutely a challenge, isn't it? I mean, looking back now, do you think you're? And that is absolutely a challenge, isn't it? I mean, looking back now, do you think you're say right place, right time, opportunity there. Can you pinpoint for you why it was important? Was it building something you were proud of? Was it financial? Was it a mixture of everything? What do you think for you was the big reason why you did so? Because I think there'd be people sat there going. I earning good cash, I am at home every night, but actually people will have that itch and could I? You know what? What was it for you?

Speaker 2:

that was the turning point in that decision, I think it's a strange one we're probably going to talk about later with the imposter syndrome, what have you? But I think still, as an entrepreneur, business owner, whatever you want to call it, you have that inner belief that you can do this and you've got something there to grow. It you can maybe offer because I'm not in a new market, it's not a new product or service, it's around for donkey's years. It's the belief that I can grow something that would have the culture I wanted from lessons learned from other places, lessons learned from clients who weren't quite happy. And then that's kind of the drive to yeah, we can give this a go. And I think a big drive for me was I'm sure my wife would agree with this I like things my own way and I like to do things the way I want to do it. So that's a big part of it.

Speaker 2:

You kind of live or die by your thought. So the driver everybody, no matter what they say, has a financial thought in them. As a business, you have to In the world, you have to, the idea being you're sat on the beach somewhere in years to come and you just off your private yacht or whatever you want to do, yeah. So I think it's accumulating your stuff. I think it's that itch in yourself to do it. I think it's a belief in yourself which is massive and I've had some massive highs and lows over that over the years um, and the drive to go out and do it and set you on where, with knowing that if you do it properly and manage everything properly, you can see the financial rewards yeah, I agree, I, I agree, I think, um, someone asked me that question not too long ago and I said I said the freedom, that autonomy, and it's not.

Speaker 1:

It's not. I don't think it's a an ego thing. Is it that you have to be the one make decisions? Because I'm not actually. I actually quite happy for other people to make every decision. This business is right, but you've got the freedom. Ultimately to that, it's yours, isn't it? And you can do what you want to do if you feel right. That's, that's a, that's a feeling I think I underestimated. He's probably one of the biggest drivers going forward it is.

Speaker 2:

It's massive and yet it's funny. If you said freedom to people who necessarily don't have their own business. The amount of times I get my friends going. Do you want to come and play golf? Do you want to come and do this?

Speaker 1:

I can't work in, but you work for yourself If I'm not in the business but it is, I think, the key for me in developing the business.

Speaker 2:

For me as a leader or manager, moving forward is allowing other people to make the decisions. I think if you bring in the right people and set the right culture and tone of what you want from the business, that should naturally happen and you can feel more comfortable allowing people to do that. One for a better word yeah, without doubt.

Speaker 1:

Looking back, let's say the first two, three years, what was the biggest lesson do you think that you've learned? If and I guess advice you would give to people starting out in those really early days, would you say?

Speaker 2:

I think there's a couple of fold. I think it's very easy in this economic climate, with the amount of finance and loans out there, to go out and go yeah, we'll just take out a big loan, we'll do what we want. We'll do everything that we want first. I think you've got to set your stall of what you want. We'll do everything that we want first. I think you've got to set your stall of what you want to achieve. And how are you going to get there?

Speaker 2:

I think where it's difficult is like if I could talk to myself now to back, then it's like stick with the process, this is where you're going, this is where you're going to be, even though now, after the good years we've had, I'm you're never happy. You always want to move it on. But if I said this to Mark three or four years ago, he'd have picked my hands off yeah, yeah. And I think kind of the message out of that is trust the process. You've got your vision in place. You've got to have an element of patience that it's going to work out and it's going to happen.

Speaker 2:

My family was sick of me harping on and going oh, it's not there where I want it to be, this isn't happening and that contract we haven't got that. It's been delayed a year. It's those types of elements that you've got to have the patience. If your process is right and your drive's there, it's going to come, yeah. And you've got to believe that. I'm not saying everything works out. I mean, we don't know what's going to happen. I feel fairly comfortable now, but you don't know what tomorrow brings, so it just takes it all away. So you can never have that 100% security. But if you believe in that process and you're willing to change in that process, then you will get somewhere new and new for where you want to be.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I think that's great advice to reflect where you are sometimes. And would you have taken this seven years ago? Because I don't think you're ever satisfied, are you? Because you're always looking for the goalpost change weekly? Yeah, you do.

Speaker 2:

They do.

Speaker 2:

And it's funny, we had our ISO 9001 surveillance the other week and I obviously haven't seen the guy who does it for a year and he comes on and says how he can see the progression, he can see the movement in that, but because you're in it and you're working with it daily, you don't see it. Yeah, um, and I try I'm not very good at it, but I try and have that time to sit back and reflect on, well, right, what we've done, what we've achieved. And because I think it's too easy to look at the negatives of the improvements or the failures that you've done and to hand the harp on then. I think you've got to look at the successes and achievements but then look at what went wrong and how you can fix that. That, hopefully, is going to make it better. I think it's too easy to just jump on the negatives too much um and it it is very easy. It's hard to change that mindset and it's hard not to see the successes that come through and where you're kind of at now to where you were.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's a tough balance, isn't it? Yeah, yes, definitely, because, in one sense, being critical means that you want to improve and that there's that lack of complacency could pretend yourself in. So, at the same time, you've got to also ride the wave and enjoy the good times. Otherwise, what are we doing it for? That's the challenge. What would you say? You are what drives you, or you know, because some people are driven by fear, some people are driven by legacy. What would you say? Now, seven years is the main driver for you, because it's pretty hard work and we've had some, if you look at seven years, probably some of the toughest seven years we've had. Really, in regard to external factors, which you know, you could look for opportunities out of those, but there's still been pretty hard things to pivot around, haven't there?

Speaker 2:

There has, without doubt, but I think there will always still be opportunities there. I mean, in the hard times there's a lot of the obviously I know where any of the sort of finances are level in business, but there's a lot to say that out of crises is opportunity. Some of the richest people in the world have made money out of crises and have seen an opportunity and took it. I think I suppose the driving factor for me now is I suppose fear might be the right word it's the fear of the work that we've put in over the seven years and the reputation that we have and that we're growing. It's kind of all for nothing. If that goes, it'll soon get forgotten about. I mean you do forget about a lot of companies that have gone now. It's just natural you move on with it and you don't think of it. So I, it'll soon get forgotten about. I mean you do forget about a lot of companies that have gone now. It's just natural you move on with it and you don't think of it. So I think there's a drive for that. But I think the other drive I have is I see so much opportunity still in growth in the business.

Speaker 2:

It's you never for me, you don't regret doing something, you regret not doing it. So by doing this, even if it doesn't work out and something happens, I can't say I didn't put enough into it, I didn't work hard enough, I didn't drive to get as best out of it for the business and for the people involved as we can and the clients at the end of the day, because I suppose in a real term, if something happens, there's nothing stopping me falling back on the contracting. But you want to keep them relationship, keep that reputation going. So it's I know it shouldn't be but an element of I don't want other people to go, because you always get the naysayers and the critics that go.

Speaker 2:

I knew Mark wouldn't make that work. I knew it would fall flat. So it's a couple of things to keep going. And I think the last point, and the biggest one for me, is my son's 16 now and you go through the different stages of life with the kids of whether dad's on a pedestal, dad's a nightmare having to go up all the time, and you kind of want to leave something. So when he's older, yeah, I'm proud of what my dad did and whether he I mean I'm hoping he comes into this If he does, brilliant If not, but I still want him to be proud of what we've achieved. So yeah, there's a couple of driving factors, but I'd be like to say the fear wasn't a big one in there.

Speaker 1:

You know I couldn't resonate anymore with that. You know, people always say you should never be driven by fear of failure. You know it's, but we are who we are and I think you can work on things. But actually, would you would, I often think, would I be, would have the same success as I have now if I wasn't driven by failure, could I be complacent? Because I am exactly the same.

Speaker 1:

I'm, I'm petrified of losing what, what I've built, and uh, I often in my head go almost work out a plan b to make, make myself feel better if something came along along and said, right, you're closing your business down. You know that's the touch wood of never being close to that. But in my head you just never know. And it's nice to have that comfort. But I think we are who we are. I think I've got the conclusion where I've just accepted that and you've got to lean into these sometimes and think, right, that's who we are. But. But you balance it out very nicely with that, the legacy piece and making your kids proudier, and there's no better driver than that. You know, when there's tough times at that age, at 16, he's going to see his dad grafting hard through difficult periods and and you know, versus parents, parents who aren't like that and they're just not a positive influence. I think we underestimate how big that is on kids when they see that positive role model in their life.

Speaker 2:

Without doubt to me. I know myself. I know I've come from families where both parents were worked hard, whatever shy of it, very few days off. We know that you get back what you put in and you can have the lifestyle you decide on what you put in. It's kind of hoping that your kids are a product of their upbringing and if they're seeing the work that you put in, I mean, don't get me wrong, I don't like him seeing the lack of work-life balance that I sometimes have.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that is a balance, yeah.

Speaker 2:

If he sees that ethic and that work ethic, I'm like, yeah, okay then, yeah, I'm going to keep going this. It's kind of that. Back to leading by actions and leading by words. Necessarily, I don't need to say anything to him about that, he sees it.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, they're your values 100%. If you go back to those days to grow and those first first one, that first two, those, those hires are are petrifying and so important and often most companies, including mine, get get them wrong. Um, what, what was that like? You know what? What lessons have you learned from try? You set yourself trying to grow, you know, in terms of, whilst also all this work coming in and trying to justify what, what, what, what was that like?

Speaker 2:

it was difficult because the the balance of not trying to overstretch the business resources and then putting the pressure on that. I've now got to take care of somebody's well-being here in livelihood that I need to pay them. We pay on the 10th of every month. I need to pay them their salary due on that regardless. So yeah, it was difficult, it was kind of an added pressure, but that then helped the drive going right. I can work out my budgets and forecasts of what I need. So this is what we can fall back on.

Speaker 2:

I think I've been very good, I know, with what we have and the cost in the business. If I fall back on my core business with anything else, we will survive. Unless anything major godly world happens, we will survive and I think I learned that let's look at worst case. Let's look at what we need to just keep people going. I think on the other side of it as well was that about bringing people in and is it going to be a right fit? I'm quite a big believer that people are a right fit for however long they're meant to be there for. So you might have people come into your life for the full life, or you might have people come into your life for a year or six months or when I was contracting a two-week shutdown or something like that, do a right at that time and you can learn and bring from that. I think it has taught me to be different managing contractors to managing staff. I think that's a huge difference. I have a lot of conversations with one of my guys over that. He reminds me of looking other ways and I go back and this is what we're working on and what we need to look at. But it's getting that balance as a contractor. It's a conversation we've just had today.

Speaker 2:

As a contractor, if somebody came to me, I'm away from home, I'm there to work, no plans. Can you do an extra couple of hours? Yes, whereas staff contracted hours. They have plans. You can't rely on that and you certainly can't make them do so. There was a couple of changes in that. There was going back to people in for a certain amount of time. You're good at the time if people leave or you end up parting ways for the reasons, but you've got to look at it as what we've benefited from that. What have I learned from that? So we've benefited X, y and Z, but I've also learned A, b and C that I need to move on to more managing people, um, and it it's kind of that, allowing it to organically happen.

Speaker 2:

We we pride ourselves on being quite flexible and loose things changing our industry. We could get a call now for work, tomorrow it's. It can happen very quickly and I think you've got to be like that in managing and leading and bringing people in as well. You've got to remember that it's human beings you're dealing with. There's an outside world to them and they have other issues that they're dealing with family problems or anything. And if you're remembering that and sort of bringing that into people, noticing a difference in mood or a difference in attitude or anything like that, so that's been a massive learning for me, looking at people in that way and how they fit into the business. But you know as well as I do, especially the business you're in the screen keeps locking.

Speaker 2:

Sorry, the industry of recruitment. It's very hard to get people and you can throw the money around left, right and center, but the money's not necessarily everything. You've got to set that right culture that people want to work for you and want to stay within the business, and that's been something that we've worked quite hard on of what else we can do, what else apart from the money that we can offer people to do that, um, and it in many ways now it was hard for me to look at it that way, but, looking at it now, that sort of the small family style business that we are, that's what we want. Yeah, we don't want people sitting there with something like dread going to work in the morning yes, you're never going to get away. We all want to be off for long weekends and do that but you want people to kind of enjoy coming in and not be nervous about coming in the next day.

Speaker 2:

Um, and there has been a change in that and we haven't taken on huge staff, but each one we have has developed that change in how we do it and working together. I think an interesting point for me is seeing how different people work together and how they co-inhabit, how they get along, how to solve issues, how to bring it up, how to get an issue out of them that they're not the more speakative sometimes. Um, so, yeah, it's been been an interesting. I wouldn't say it's been massively challenging. I don't think that's been a huge challenge, it's just been interesting and different it's. You look back every six months and you're like different points of where the cultural relationships, where it's it's world's part now than it was six months ago.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, it does. It is evolve. I completely agree, and I guess a lot what you're talking. There is emotional intelligence, you know you can call it what you want, but you, you've obviously identified the importance of understanding people by not only what they say, how they act, you know all those, those small matters, but that takes a proactive approach, isn't it? You have to take an understanding and listen, which can be difficult when're when you're in a busy office environment, which is which is really important. Is that? Has that been conscious for you to go, or is it just you as a person? Do you think? Because, if you think about your management journey, how that's evolved? Because it can be difficult managing people in your business versus, you know, managing people when you're a contractor or you're working for a business, for I think it has been there.

Speaker 2:

I mean you're right, managing a team of contractors, it's very easy to go you're not working out, you're not fitting Away, we go Bring somebody else in. I think it's evolved over the years and it's still always going to evolve. And the amount of conversations I have with a couple of the guys who keep highlighting that and bringing that up to think about this or to look at it that way, or the biggest sort of criticism I get off the team is let us help and let us do it. You don't talk to us about your workload burden. Let us do more, let us try and help. And that's evolved over time.

Speaker 2:

Um, just dealing with people and managing different people has evolved over time. Again, managing contractors, you can kind of treat everybody the same within reason, whereas when you've got a team of staff, it's it's often an individual basis and it's kind of picking up the sparks that will motivate them, which you get out of more. And also, when the negatives are there or when there's an issue about them having the confidence to be able to come to you and say this is the problem I've got. This is an issue before it gets to the point of the blowout, where we've had a couple where I've come into the office to one of the guys and I need to talk to you. I need to go and do this. No, no, I need to talk to you now. And it's trying to avoid that. It's trying to solve it earlier or have the conversation, yeah, but I think that's only helped us as a business. Our communication is so much better now.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, by far.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I don't want to say it's like a safe space, but it kind of is. You want somebody to, within reason, say their issues and fail without feelings of repercussions over. He's a troublemaker, we'll just get rid of him and move on to somebody else. It's not the way to do it.

Speaker 1:

I think you're right the importance of that safe space, because I just think places have changed a lot and, I think, for good reason. I think previously, the culture of someone at home with people they know and trust, versus work was completely world apart, and there'll be some people who go. That's how it should be, but to just or just people, whether you're in an office environment or at home, you know, why should it be that different ultimately? So I think that you're right that the importance that safe space is so underrated it is. And apologies for interrupting this episode with a very quick announcement about my business.

Speaker 1:

Theo james are a specialist talent provider specifically to the manufacturing and engineering sector. I am incredibly proud of what we've achieved since our inception in 2015. We specialize in roles from semi-skilled trades right the way up to our TJ exec search arm of the business, both from the contract and permit side. We offer both bespoke one-off campaigns for heart of full roles or a full partnership service where we become an extension of your business. For any information, please get in touch with me or the team.

Speaker 1:

I hope you enjoy the rest of the episode. Thank you. People will trust you, people will trust you and people will walk over hot coal for you, because I imagine you've had trickier times in the business, where people have needed to work, you know, over and above, and they're the times where you really see how much they trust you and how much they care about their business, because, look business, because look we're in a competitive landscape and I'm sure all your staff could be snapped up by competitors if they really wanted to. So the fact that that turnover has been low, you know, I think is is important, and if companies don't look at that, then you know that that's why their turnover is high. In my opinion it is.

Speaker 2:

If you, um, we're in a very good moment no, I'm just saying, without doubt and I think it's sort part of that about the trust thing as well it's, you've got to learn to make the employees feel valued, and I can be quite bad on somebody. I'll say something and I'll take it on board, but I might not show it or express it, or I'm working on it but I might not have told them or updated it that I'm working on it. So it is. It's that safe space culture. I want to keep people. I don't want to keep bringing you and have to train and do all that. You want to keep people in? Yeah, but then I'm kind of hypocritical there, because then the apprenticeships that we're going to be looking at, we want to train people in the industry the right way, quite happy and probably aware, especially for young people. They're going to go out into the contracting world because it can make a lot more money, but you want to come back, yeah, so it's that culture is just massive for me.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and you obviously care a lot about the industry to have the apprentices in because that's a long game, isn't it? With no guarantee that they will, they will stay there. So is that another important factor for you to to try to continue to, to give back to the industry that's given you so much as well?

Speaker 2:

yeah, I think so. I mean it's definitely twofold, I'm not gonna lie about it. It means with the low in resource availability that you can bring people. We've had a lot of people leave, a lot of people retire, um, so there's that. But it's also because I am quite invested in the quality business that I think I can bring people through that are the same. It's only going to help the industry, which really kind of a top-line approach to a lot of stuff we do is life-saving. Some of the time the products or the services or the inspection on walkways or tanks could end up in a life catastrophe incident if it's not done right. I just think you put more people back into the industry. It's only going to improve, which I think then also becomes a selling point to our clients. Their quality is improved but efficient, and that sells it off and helps them Again selfishly. The more they sell themselves, the more work they get. Absolutely yeah, 100% work they're getting.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely. Yeah, 100%. There has to be some in back. We're in a very competitive landscape right now and there's obviously a lot. There's a lot of small businesses, but there's also a lot of big corporate businesses. I personally think I've seen a change over the last 10 years probably, where it's not all about the big corporate firms anymore. You know quite the opposite. I think there's a lot more flexibility out there and there's pros and cons. How have you found being a small business and you know tendering for the work in this marketplace?

Speaker 2:

you know, over the last two years, shall we say, I found it quite difficult and I think it's been a mixture of probably my targets, where I'm targeting the big businesses Are we quite ready for that yet? And also the big business view of us is a smaller business. The second point frustrates the hell out of me because they look at a smaller business versus a larger one. So a smaller one, we have X amount of cash flow. They have a larger one, but my overheads are low, which means I can pay the guys better, which means I get the better quality of guys. Us in a bigger business we'll hire or have the equipment from the same people at the same cost as all the other people. But I understand from the big client's point of view that they want to have trust in a company that they're going to be around for that length of project. We're not going to have issues, right, I can't pay the lads this week, so they're not at work. So I understand it.

Speaker 2:

I think the last couple of years has taught me that we've got to continue to grow our reputation and let our work speak for itself. And I'm finding in the supply chain yes, some of the bigger contracts we won't get, we won't tend to, we won't get. But if I can pick off the low-hanging fruit of the supply chain, they see that quality and see all that work going into it, from the service to the documentation. Don't have that pushes our reputation, which then means well, hang on a minute. We've seen labellum's reports on from 10 different suppliers that are coming to us. The feedback's great, documentation's great. Why don't we look at them?

Speaker 2:

So I think the last two years has totally changed my strategy slightly. And again back to what we said earlier have the patience, trust the process. In a year or two I'm not saying that I won't and I'll turn down a big contract now. We'll take it, we'll manage it and do it well. But sort of, in a year or two the market, the tier one market, will have more confidence in what we can deliver and I think that's kind of the natural growth I definitely picked up from the two years.

Speaker 2:

With it, I mean we've just started a business development director last week, second weekend, and he's of a similar approach coming into it that we need to get that trajectory going. And because of the level of growth, we want some of these multi-million pound contracts yes, lovely, but we can pick up a lot of the smaller contracts Less value but more of them and pick it up. And it also allows us to continually improve our process, our systems, so that hopefully, when we do get the big tier one ones, everything's in place and we can run it as we have done the tier two or the tier three stuff.

Speaker 2:

I think it's just patience, it's just settle down a little bit, mark, see what you've got, and go at it bit by bit, because the worst thing in the world is you jump at a big project and then all of a sudden something happens to it. You've let it down and that's everything gone. Yeah, where does it take your time Get it right? It can be the making of something.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and I don't know if it's the same in your industry, but I found when we first started in business I had these names, a specific list of names the biggest businesses in the North. These are the ones I want to work with. But I think you quickly find out they aren't the ones you want to work with because there's no personal touch. You know the terms, here are the terms. There's no flexibility and typically you know at your payment terms and that type of stuff is eye-wateringly long and you can't influence projects as much as you can. With smaller businesses, where you know, you know the key stakeholders, you have that personal touch. They align yourself, they align to your cultural values more and it's less transactional. Do you find that with some of the projects you're working on that actually the big ones aren't the ones you want to go anyway?

Speaker 2:

um, I wouldn't say that they aren't the ones I want to go at. I think they pose their own challenges because a client could ring me as the owner. They could have been dealing with one of the guys, but they could be have been me at any time. So that personal touch is definitely a big selling point for us and also the size of us allows us to react a lot quicker. We don't have to go up to the chair, we don't have to potentially speak to the board. The decision makers are in that room and they can be like, yeah, let's go. I think that kind of has a downside for the bigger companies, because they have that many people in and it's the bigger processes and systems and departments they all have to go through and sign them off at each stage. That slows everything down. I'd still be lying if I thought I don't want to go after them.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's a balance, isn't it?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, but I think my experience in history because I've been contracting and working for the companies been on some of the biggest projects in the world and some massive projects which has helped me to know how to be with those people, how to be with those people, you know, having a different approach and a different tact. I mean I'll always be polite and and friendly. I'll always go with a smile on my face. I am probably not your typical business owner. I hate wearing suits, so if I, if I could get away with it, I'd be in my shorts, and that all the time um so I have changed that, I have smartened up a little bit.

Speaker 1:

But now, you do, you, I think I like to call people mate.

Speaker 2:

It's just how I am and I won't change that. And I think back to your point when you're saying the change in sort of the environment, whether it was COVID, whatever the change around in that people are liking that approach. You've got to be genuine, you have to be genuine and the only way for me you can't pretend to be genuine and the only way for me you can't pretend to be genuine. It's very easily found out and I think people are liking that genuine personal touch from a smaller business, um, and I think that'll go and go. I suppose the trick is to keep that, as the growth is coming in, is to not lose touch of that, end up being a corporate piece that people more about when we're, more than about nown, about now. It's very difficult to keep, but I've noticed that in the last couple of years without Dan.

Speaker 1:

I'm smiling because I just agree with that so much and it is such a battle. I mean, I remember when I first started talking to you know, the plan was to you know even this podcast. The plan was to speak to more directors and directors and directors and stuff and whatnot. And when I first go to meet in meetings with owners of businesses, I had some real fear and imposter syndrome in terms of, like, you know, there's a couple of my competitors who were a lot more polished than I am, shall we say, and stuff, and I'm just, you know a lad from, you know a lad from sheffield. That's worked hard and done okay.

Speaker 1:

But it took me a little while to realize when I met good example, right, there's a first man I had about podcast was Bill Scott. Bill Scott is one of the biggest names in Teesside, right, and I got to meet him via the Entrepreneurs Forum and he said, yep, come down. So I met him, obviously driving in you just see this monstrous building right and I thought I was nervous and within about five seconds of meeting bill scott, I was just like what's all the fuss about? He's? He's just such a down-to-earth, you know, but who clearly just treats everyone the same. Do you know, I mean, and and it was such a good lesson for me because he was, you know, he didn't have to give me the time of day, he did, he was, he was talking about networking and this and that, and because I was quite open with him about, you know, my, my fears and that side to it. Um, because the first time I would start networking and he would just give me advice about this and that and stuff, and I just felt so much better and I think there'll always be a, an area of imposter syndrome in me. I think, just again, it's probably what you're driven by. I'm driven by fear of failure. I'm still driven, probably by a little bit of imposter syndrome, but it is.

Speaker 1:

I think it's so important to be authentic, so important to be yourself, and but it is harder. There's a couple of um. There was a big business once, a very big business that wanted to work with us and they loved everything about us, but they felt some of our LinkedIn posts were a little bit too personal and we actually had a tough decision to make as a business and we decided to not work closely with them and change who we were. But that was a hard decision when you're a business owner and you see the pound shilling, the penceence and go. This could be life-changing, but it's getting. It's getting back to being true to yourself, isn't it? And being genuine. It's hard, though it is.

Speaker 2:

It is very difficult and you do sometimes think you're right and look at it go, yeah, I'll work with them. I can't stand them, I can't stand the culture. But yeah, I can see the invoice, I can see the payments, happy days. But then you look back in years to come and go. I wasn't true to myself there. I started this with this idea of the culture I wanted and I've become sort of a slave to the machine of yeah, whatever you want and we'll do it your way. I'll suddenly turn up in a shirt and tie and a suit. It's dead right. That's the biggest thing I found. Imposter syndrome will never go away Never.

Speaker 2:

Because I think as human beings, the majority of us are like I'm not sure we should be doing this and we deserve this. It's other people who make the big bucks after big business or whatever. But the more and more I've spoken to see, I, I, I'm quite a confident person, but I really struggle with small talk and I really struggle with when I don't know somebody, yeah, yeah with them. Or if I don't know about the topic, yeah, and that's. I've worked on with doing that. I've rapidly learned some of these, because we don't naturally deal with what we do with the mds, the companies we go through, the quality or the operations guys. So and but. As I've been getting more and more out there and speaking to these guys, it's like why was that? They're just even a weekend. I watched his dog go, yeah yeah, it's strange, it is.

Speaker 1:

So I I tell you one thing, one thing as well. Bill sc Scott taught me right, because I said I get a bit nervous networking sometimes, because there's all reasons. You said I'm not a massive fan of walking in a room for the people I don't know and having to make small talk. I find it a bit fake. I like it if it's a room for like-minded people and it's just, like you say, a topic we know about. But if it's really sort of forced networking, I'm not a huge fan of it.

Speaker 1:

And I said that to him and I said, like you know, I'll probably not be best as well. And he went. I'll give you a tip. He said most people have a coffee or tea, don't they network? I said yeah. He said next time you have a coffee or tea. He said just look, and everyone you just everyone was was just shaking a little bit and I thought we're all winging this. We're all winging. These are people who sound confident and look confident, and I'm thinking and made me feel instantly better. But you know, we're all doing our best and that's all you can do, isn't it?

Speaker 2:

but yeah, at this point you forget that. I mean I have no problem going in to do a presentation in front of 2,000 people. Yeah, nerves are there, naturally, but nerves are good, because nerves for me keep you on your game and everything, and I've had that from sport the way through. You should be nervous before a game, you should be a bit panicky so I can go and do that. But it's like go and meet them five people in that corner who you've never met before. But you have to make it's like. For me it's like chatting a girl up yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's fear of failure.

Speaker 1:

And and what's the next? What's the vision then? What's the future vision? What's the the next sort of? You know you've taken this to a great level in the last 70 years. You know we talk about. Talk about looking back and thinking. You know, I would I take where I am now. Where would you take where you're going to be in five years? Do you think what's the next step?

Speaker 2:

I've not thought that far ahead. I'd probably say the next two years to to look back on that, because the landscape in this industry is forever changing. I think circumstances forever change as well. I definitely want to grow my staff levels, not my management levels, because I do believe we're here to make money and the people who are sat in office are not making any money. They're not out in the shop floor boots on the ground. So I want to increase our staff base and definitely increase the apprenticeship base to bring that in, to get guys and girls into the industry and getting out on the site with an experience.

Speaker 2:

The main thing that I want to look back and see the difference in our reputation in terms of reach, in terms of who knows about us. I feel as though we've got a reach within teeside now, even though it's that's taken me a while. A lot of my work was outside the area, even though we're in middlesbrough I'm from hartlepool was there. Um is to increase our reach within, within the local area, because teeside's booming and historically it's had a great industry sector and I want to be a part of that and I want the balance to be that legacy, that name in it. In two years' time, my boy will be 18, and I'd love him to be a part of it. I have warned him he'll be an MDT tech right at the bottom.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely yeah, doing all that learning through PPO.

Speaker 2:

So, they're kind of short-term goals Within that as well.

Speaker 2:

For me personally within the business, I want to continue to step away from not the day-to-day running but the actively out on the sites doing the job, Because I still do an element now with a small team where I need the service guys.

Speaker 2:

It's that usual you need to have a certain amount to bring somebody else in. Until you get that, you've got to use resources there and I want to be able to sit back this year to be able to plan, have that in place, to then look at more of a long term strategic plan, which again the business development is mentioned. That and it's helping me to look at it as well, having somebody else's eyes on where we want to go and what we want to push through. So I think by the end of this year I'll probably be able to answer where I want to be in five years, I think within the next two bigger staff, bigger reputational reach and me kind of looking at the business of where we can go next. I'm not saying we're reacting now when we are looking ahead but I want to have a bigger view of what's happening.

Speaker 1:

Great. I think they're superb plans to have. Look, this has been a joy, mark. I've really enjoyed this.

Speaker 1:

Apologies, I've probably hijacked certain points, but I resonate with pretty much the whole story, you know and everything about and I think everyone else will as well and what I like about this episode is that there's going to be people there to say who are contracting, who are working with companies and probably need sometimes a bit of a push to go. I'll give this a crack, because you know I think we're both in agreement that it's bloody hard work. It takes over your life, but the rest is just exciting and a good challenge and a good stress and and what you're building there. You're building a business and a legacy and, and I think your target to have your son in the business two years I just think that's, that's it's. It's amazing that and I think, um, you know we never forget why we do what we do and to have that, I think, is think is brilliant. I've got no doubt you'll get all those goals. So I just want to thank you so much for your time and I'm looking forward to watching the relevant grow and, yeah, it'll be great.

Speaker 2:

No, thank you. It's been helpful on this side, for me as well with speaking to the likes of yourselves, which resonates that it's not alone. Everybody goes through this journey. And you like yourselves, which resonates it's not alone. Everybody goes through this journey and you're not special or you're not hard. Done right, this is what you go through to do it.

Speaker 1:

So no, thank you. Thank you so much for listening or watching this episode of the Manufacturing Leaders Podcast. Please just like or subscribe. It really helps grow the show and obviously improve the industry. If you want any more information about Theo James, as I mentioned midway through the episode, please. If you want any more information about Theo James, as I mentioned midway through the episode, please get in touch with me or the team.

Speaker 1:

I would love to talk about how it can help you directly or your business. We are more than just a recruiter and I know people say that, but it's something I'm incredibly passionate about. We are in business for much more than just a bums on seats approach. We want to help people grow, we want to help improve their lives and, ultimately, I want to work with businesses and people who share the same values as we do, and that's something I'm incredibly passionate about. So, please, if that is you and you are passionate about that dream role or passionate about your people, please get in touch with me or the team. I would absolutely love to talk a bit more detail. Thank you very much. Speak soon.