Manufacturing Leaders

Carole Williamson: Creating a work environment where neurodiverse people can thrive

• Mark Bracknall • Season 10 • Episode 8

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Carole Williamson, In-Work Support and Training Officer at Durham County Council, explains why embracing neurodiversity in the workplace benefits everyone.

Key Points:

  • Neurodiversity reflects the natural variations in human cognition, yet traditional workplaces often exclude neurodivergent talent.
  • Many neurodivergent individuals mask their traits to fit in, and many—especially autistic women—remain undiagnosed.
  • Inclusive workplaces start with education, practical accommodations, and rethinking hiring processes to focus on skills, not interviews.
  • The "Four S’s" framework—See, Support, Safety, and Success—helps create a truly neuro-inclusive environment.




Please subscribe to the channel for more content! Theo James are a Manufacturing & Engineering Recruiter based in the North East, helping Manufacturing and Engineering firms grow across the UK. Please call us on 0191 5111 298

Speaker 1:

Hello and welcome to an episode of the Manufacturer's Leads podcast with me, mark Bracknell Myles, director of Theory of Change, recruitment. Today, as I'm recording this, is three years today since our first ever episode. I'm incredibly proud of that fact, something I love doing. So fitting that we recorded this episode today, because it is, and definitely is, one of the most powerful episodes I've ever recorded and one you're going to learn a lot from and hopefully completely change the way you think about neurodiversity but actually how you think about people and, as an employer, the environment that you can provide to make people feel safe.

Speaker 1:

Cara Williamson is an amazing person at Sunworks, so Durham County Council, as an in-work support and training officer. In her day job, she goes into employers and educates them and makes them aware of how you provide an inclusive and safe environment for every single person. And that was the most important lesson for me that we should not look at people who are normal and people who are neurodivergent. We should just look at people as a whole, as a race, and create an environment which makes people be safe, makes people learn, flourish and progress. And I've learned so much in this episode and it's one I'm just going to sit and reflect on after and I'm sure you are, you will do as well. Um, it's very important this one, so please watch or listen, and I'd love to know your thoughts and comments. So please do so and please, please, please, just like and subscribe, but I want to thank Carol for coming on the show and talking about something which is so incredibly important and so incredibly well-timed.

Speaker 2:

So thank you, Carol, and thank you for listening. I hope you enjoyed the episode.

Speaker 1:

I'll do that for justice, carol. Nearly, I'm using myself Nearly. Yeah, this today is a really interesting topic, a really important topic. Ironically, it's three years today since we started the podcast and I think it's so fitting that actually it's a slightly different type of episode. This because traditionally, we've jumped on with leaders of manufacturing businesses and talked about their journey. We talked about leadership. So what management? But when I start this podcast, I wanted to do a little bit more than that. I wanted to, um, to help the sector, improve the sector and and just try to add value where, where we can.

Speaker 2:

Sorry, yeah, sorry no you're all good good job you can edit isn't it? I'm so sorry about that I really thought she was going to settle.

Speaker 1:

She was doing the circle yeah, someone's had a parcel delivered next door so I'll, as when you started, I'll just start, I'll just start again.

Speaker 2:

I just keep going Right.

Speaker 1:

A massive warm welcome today to Carol Williamson, who is the InWork Support and Training Officer at Durham County Council. How are you doing, carol? Are you all right? I'm all right. Thanks, mark. Good, I'm really looking forward to this. This is today.

Speaker 1:

It's three years since we started the podcast and I think it's quite fitting because if I think back to three years ago, I'm not saying we had a master plan. I never thought I'd still be doing it and I'm so privileged to be doing so sort of 93 episodes on. But actually traditionally we jump on with manufacturing leaders, we jump on with people who own businesses in the sector or lead teams in the sector, and that's great and it's really important. But actually I wanted to do something different with this podcast. I wanted to help the sector.

Speaker 1:

I wanted to raise awareness of important topics and this is absolutely such an important topic that I think there's probably a real lack of awareness and actually a real lack of understanding behind, and I think that's what I want to really talk about today, so we can share the very important subjects of neurodiversity and actually understand what employers can can do to really sort of raise the awareness of it and improve their um experience for people, um, who go through something like that, and and no better person to have on than carol for this, because this is something that you've done for for long, long time, long time, carol. So just talk us through briefly. Actually, if you would mind to explain your diversions to someone unfamiliar with the concept, that would be a lovely place to start, if that's okay.

Speaker 2:

Okay. So it's an awful lot easier if we think about the kind of diversity that we're aware of already. All of us have experienced the David Attenborough telling us about biodiversity and the variation of life forms on the planet Millions of different kinds of trees, loads of different kinds of cats, loads of different kinds of rats Everything in nature is diverse. You don't just get a singular anything. The best way to understand neurodiversity is from that concept. So previously we believed that the human race was divided up by races, but now we're very aware that there's only one race and that's the human race. But actually everyone is different. The whole of the human species is a spectrum. It's a variety of different people. We look different, We've got different eyes, different size, feet, different colour skin and different ways of thinking about the world. Our perception is something that we think of as being the same as each other, but in reality we are all experienced in the world in a very individual way. That could make it more complicated rather than easier to understand. But actually the entire planet of humans sit under the umbrella of neurodiversity different kinds of thinking. Within that there are different areas of thought. So the neurodiversity paradigm is understanding that began late 80s, early 90s and has developed into its own academic field. It's only in the last couple of years we're starting to actually see the impact in real life outside of university and academia, and what that's suggesting is that the world is designed and devised by people that you would typically expect to see in the world I don't like to use the word normal, because normal does not exist under our wonderful neurodivergent planet but actually neurotypical would be the title that we'd give for the people we expect to see in the world, the people who have created generally the culture In this country. We developed as a white Christian society and then we've moved further forwards from that, but the cultural parameters were set by that. So here neurotypical would tend to be what you would expect to see and experience in a person. Beside that is the whole world of neurodivergence, People whose brains are diverted from what you would typically expect to see, people who think in a massive range of different ways and whose experience of the world thoughts, feelings, experiences, physically sometimes are different would fit under neurodivergence For me.

Speaker 2:

In my work I tend to focus on what we know now tend to be genetic divergences, things like autism, ADHD, dyspraxia, dyslexia, dyscalculia, OCD, Tourette's, but actually a lot of other things fall under the world of neurodivergency now, so some people with mental health conditions would fit under that as well. My work tends to focus on autism and ADHD, and then we have all of the little extra bits that people need to understand are co-occurring very often, but not singularly the focus of the work. I'm able to support people to understand themselves and then help the employer understand the person as well, to create, um, I suppose rather than creating, we're kind of taking the elephant out of the room and making everybody as aware as possible, taking away the awkwardness and trying to ensure that there's pure clarity there so everybody knows where we're coming from and what we can do to support each other yeah, look, I think you communicate that so unbelievably well and I knew this.

Speaker 1:

I knew I'd learned so much, and I already have. Actually, you know, what I really like about that is that I think most people, even people who have a very brief understanding of neurodiversity, would probably exactly what you said. There have normal people and neurodiversity and there's just two groups. But actually what? What? What's normal? Because everyone's different, and I think that's so that resonates so much. You know, I wouldn't class me.

Speaker 1:

My wife is as new as you're diverse, but actually we, we think so differently. It was um, it's interesting. I don't know if you've seen um, the one percent club. I'm uh, I'm going off off here, but the um, she is unbelievable at it. I can't even read the question right because my if as soon as it goes, sounds about free. He has to. My brain just goes nope, and she just knows it. So it's just it. Just, we had this conversation a week and how we just think completely differently, you know, and we can both get the same, both gets a goal, but we get there very different way because we think different, we are different and you would class us as normal. So I just think as soon as people can yeah.

Speaker 1:

It's such a nice way of putting it, but even the neurotypical, everyone still thinks, learns and is different, and I think the quicker we embrace that as employees, as employers, like you said there, and we try to have an inclusive environment for everybody instead of putting people in boxes, because that must be quite frustrating for you in your job, that people are put in boxes and everyone over here must, must, think and work like that everyone here well, they're, they're fine, so so is that a big part of your initial piece, working with companies?

Speaker 2:

It certainly if I backtrack a little bit from that, because I think a bit of the journey that I've been on kind of explains your question better.

Speaker 1:

Please yeah.

Speaker 2:

I'm just approaching my 51st birthday in April, and I am diagnosed as autistic, but that diagnosis came to me when I was 48. And up until that point I had always been different. I represent myself differently, even to the extent of sentence structures that I will form aren't necessarily the way that other people would speak. So every day of my life someone's told me how different I am, either positively or sometimes negatively.

Speaker 2:

But they've definitely always told me. I've always been weird, carol, or Carol, why are you talking about that? Or where on earth did that idea come from? Why are you talking about that? Or where on earth did that idea come from? So, rather than being put in a box, I'd certainly been judged in different ways that people couldn't quite couldn't quite put me in a box To be, honest, I was too out there for them to actually identify in that way.

Speaker 2:

And when it comes to matching that with people's understanding of what autism is, people really struggle. It's like they're trying to put an american plug into an english socket. It just doesn't make sense to them that I am autistic, yet I am not sheldon from the big bang theory. I am not dustin hoffman in rain man. Yeah, I am a very different kind of autistic person and that in itself probably identifies what you're thinking about, that most people have an expectation of what autism is and when you don't fulfill that, it's really confusing for them. Or it's enlightening, and I'm taking advantage of the enlightening to try and use it as a bit of a maybe a weapon, which is just a really useful tool to try and stop people in their tracks and to identify that what we understand isn't actually the reality of the situation, that our previous theories specifically about autism, but actually covering many neurodivergences, in reality are based on a very small percentage of people. In fact, what we're looking at now is a little bit of a revolution, evolutionary change, where we're noticing more people and identifying that when we're looking for autism in our medical criteria, we are missing people because we're looking for a certain kind of autistic person. Yeah, actually there are a million different kinds of autistic people because, just like in the neurotypical world, variety and survival comes in different forms, and that's exactly the same in the neurodivergent world.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, when you look for an autistic person, you are framed by our culture and our history and I do not represent any of that to people. So what I'm trying to do is to kind of form a little chink, if you will push myself through it and then bring everybody else as well, because once you start looking at individuals, then you create diversity and then you create power within your business. Diversity is power. Thinking differently enables you to attract either customers or other employees who think differently. They talk a lot about growth and, um, you know, furthering your business in that way.

Speaker 2:

But which way? Growth? Are you going up or are you going better at what you're doing? Are you attracting people to spend money in your shop by having a diverse workforce and bringing in that diverse customer base as well? Probably not, because you might perceive disability or neurodivergence as something other than you, because of the idea that society has given us we need more people to understand. Actually, you're probably already employing autistic people, but you don't see them because they're so busy trying to fit in that they may not be working to their best. You may not be getting the best out of them, and that's what you need to be able to do in order to understand and develop. The boxes metaphorically exist right across our society, don't they? More and more people are jumping out of them and demonstrating what powerful difference can bring.

Speaker 2:

Yeah than giving a superpower yeah, yeah, and actually superpower is a funny one, because so when my son started to move towards his autism diagnosis when he was eight he's 18 now it was almost like an episode of the Simpsons, because within the same month period we discovered he was colourblind and that actually he had flat feet as well. So suddenly this little eight-year-old boy is discovering all of these factors about himself that feel majorly negative.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

But really he sees the world like no one else can because of his colorblindness. That is a superpower. His perception of other people and particularly maths and science, he thinks in three dimensions. It's incredible and as a child learning about those differences, it's really important that people get ownership of themselves ownership of themselves. So for him definitely. We looked at him being superpowered and we talked about that. Unfortunately, he has quite a monotropic processing so it's black and white. And once he was a superpower he thought he didn't have to look both ways to cross the road, because if a car knocked into him he would knock the car out, because he was now superpowered because in order to help him embrace his autism.

Speaker 2:

What I actually did was activate part of his autistic thinking and put him a little bit at risk, because I'd already told him and you can't untell- yeah, yeah superhero status. Yeah, so we worked our way through it. But then now I'm amongst many women in their 40s being diagnosed ADHD, autism, dyslexia. I mean it's nice to think of having a superpower, but actually it's not the best way for us to engage with who we are. It's a little bit kind of condescending and joking.

Speaker 2:

What we need is a sophisticated version of that so that people are able to engage at all levels. And, to be honest, we're not superpowered, because academic research identifies very, very clearly that most neurodivergent people have what they call a spiky profile really good at lots of stuff, not necessarily very good at other things. What the pressure on society is to be a generalist, occupations have changed hugely since I began working, when people were specialists and if you could do your specialist function, then that was fine yeah but now, if you work for a local authority, like I do, I need to be able to use a range of software.

Speaker 2:

I need to be hybrid, to work in a range of different environments and actually I need to be able to manage my time and my diary and attend and present, and, and, and, and, and, and, and and and. For a lot of people that's just too much. A lot of people are failing because their job descriptions are so three pages long, yep 100%.

Speaker 1:

I think the expectation on people now is interesting and I actually think this is is we're at risk of this being a bigger problem, because I think as companies come under stress financially, I think they will become leaner and I think they will ask more of their staff to be stretched and to do multiple things. So I think that's that's a really interesting point, initially. What I think's interesting as well is I completely agree, and I think there's two problems that we've got. People there were people in businesses that are, um, are hiding, you know, not being their true self, because, exactly what you said, they're trying to dull down certain aspects, to try and be that generalist and and can interject the government report which was released in February.

Speaker 2:

The Buckland report, has identified that actually most autistic people in work will not disclose of autistic. People are fully open about being autistic, but one in 10 autistic people who were working will never tell anybody that they're autistic.

Speaker 1:

Such a shame, isn't it?

Speaker 2:

and and I'm right in saying, carol, that particularly in young girls in school, they actually get very, very good at hiding it essentially, and that becomes what we think happens is that the way that girls and boys develop their brains in different ways whether you know, within the neurodiversity spectrum all humans girls tend to develop their interaction alongside their doing. I am not a psychologist, I will use the simplest terms. Boys develop their doing doing first, but not their interaction. I must um caveat this I was a primary school teacher, so I trained in early years, so I've not made all of this psychology off. I just don't have the fancy pants term.

Speaker 2:

What we see with more, more in the world of autism is that boys, because they're doing, they are just being Theoretically the most mindful creatures on the planet. Young autistic boys who were simply being themselves and literally living in the moment. That's not taking account of all of the sensory differences they may be experiencing, and quite it gets quite complicated digging into that. The little girls tend to want to get on with other people and it's not as instinctive and natural for autistic girls to communicate with non-autistic people, so they have to learn. What research is suggesting is that stage one is mimic.

Speaker 2:

You look at the girls around you and you go right, that's what a girl is. How do I do that? Yeah, you see, little girls getting into these really intense best friends and then wearing identical clothing. Really intense best friends and then wearing identical clothing. I've watched the little girl in my street come out, clock her best friend, go back in the house, come back out in a matching outfit, because that is obviously the outfit.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, yes, isn't it?

Speaker 2:

and you see it across the board if you look in any primary school these little girls mimicking each other and trying to achieve it doesn't necessarily work and you can get the mimic right, but at a certain point you have to start being yourself as well and it's at that point you put together your mimicry if that's a word, I'm sure it is into a mask and then you wear that mask of what is socially appropriate, how I behave in certain circumstances and who I am, and we see little girls not getting picked up at school for diagnosis because they behave perfectly.

Speaker 2:

One mum, um, launched on facebook a really successful tool we're struggling to get get teachers to recognize these perfect little girls who come home and explode. They've kept everything in all day and they come home and they're angry or distressed or frustrated. Mom goes into school and teacher says oh, but she's perfect, don't know what you're talking about. This mom said my little girl is a perfect piece of paper at home. Every day she folds herself with deep creases into the most gorgeous origami swan and she floats like a swan all day amongst the other little girls. But then she comes home and my young folder and she's no longer a flat piece of paper because she's scored, increased and distressed from spending the day pretending to be someone that she's not.

Speaker 1:

So sad, isn't it?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and that's happening right across the country, right across the country, and these teachers are doing the very best that they can stretch time.

Speaker 1:

Something within it, it's too hard.

Speaker 2:

She got a diagnosis and I advise mums that this is quite a good technique for demonstrating. We've got some parents who are videoing their children when they're in meltdown and it's a bit unethical. Yeah, how much would you want that to be represented to you?

Speaker 1:

we need to find ways to still respect the children as individuals whilst trying to pull down the help that they need it's difficult because, as a parent, you're desperate and you do what you do, anything you possibly can do. As simple as that, isn't it? But it is. It just highlights how much of a problem it is, and those traits will be learned and then, like you say, replicated in a work environment.

Speaker 1:

What you mentioned as well is there'll be a lot of people you know a lot of people listening who their employees will be, hiding things and, you know, not showing their true selves. Start um to, because the the second problem is that there, there will be employees out there who are scared to hire someone who is neurodivergent because they might think we haven't got the environment for them. They won't be able to work, and that will. That will happen, which is a massive shame. How do we start to provide an inclusive environment and I'm a business owner, so you know you're speaking to me as well here what are the first steps to? Whether it's assessing the current environment or the first steps to try and start to be more, have an environment which is inclusive for, for everybody, because that's really what we're talking about in their small differences exactly right education okay foundation, get everybody to the same place of understanding.

Speaker 2:

I've been going to employers and doing an hour on neurodiversity and neurodivergence, talking about um perceptions and understanding and trying to break down some of these false falsities I suppose that people are living on um. It is. The foundation to creating a neuro-inclusive workplace is understanding what we understand about diversity. So getting everybody shop floor right the way up to the chief executive and that's exactly what I've been doing within the county council started with um one apprentice coming through the county council.

Speaker 2:

We started with um one apprentice coming through the county council apprenticeship program. The lead for your apprenticeships caught adrift of this. So durham enables is the supporters employment arm of durham county council and we work with disabled adults who are 18 plus. All you need to be is disabled in some way. So it could be a mental health issue, could be a physical disability, could be a neurodivergence or it could be a learning disability, and that's what this young person did. They had a job coach who supported them to apply through the traditional route and then we turned that into a very person-centered opportunity. So that apprentice was going to a particular department. We went into the department and gave them the hours training. What that led to was management training being offered across the board. So recruitment and selection and then how to manage neurodivergent people for all of the lead officers for apprenticeships. Now if you want to recruit an apprentice in Durham County Council, you need to have done the neurodiversity training course.

Speaker 1:

Apologies for interrupting this episode with a very quick announcement about my business. Theo James are a specialist talent provider specifically to the manufacturing and engineering sector. Very quick announcement about my business. Theo James are a specialist talent provider specifically to the manufacturing and engineering sector. I'm incredibly proud of what we've achieved since our inception in 2015. We specialize in roles from semi-skilled trades right the way up to our TJ exec search arm of the business. Both in the contract and permit side, we offer both bespoke one-off campaigns for heart of full roles or a full partnership service where we become an extension of your business. For any information, please get in touch with me or the team. I hope you enjoy the rest of the episode, thank you.

Speaker 2:

Because it re-sculpted the way that we recruit. It restructured the way that we interview and it also restructured what people do from then on Much more person-centered management, looking at the individuals. Some people then came to me and said we've got people we know are autistic on our team and they're not telling us what do we do. Can we tell them that we know?

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

No, actually you can't't, because that's their personal information, even if you do know, and they don't want to talk about it, gdpr yeah, you can't talk about exactly so you educate everybody around them, including them. Baseline training and education and actually just the knowledge and understanding about how things are different is enough for a lot of people okay, so you're making a safe environment, aren't you?

Speaker 2:

essentially, yeah yeah, you're creating what we call um natural supports in the world of supported employment. We create reasonable adjustments which we may go out of our way to create something completely bespoke for an individual, be that a chair, a mouse, be that all sorts. You can have a job coach, you can have an assistant, but what's really key is actually the this, the kind of it's not so much environment, it's an awful lot more to do with the people creating an understanding and a respect between people who may have not understood before. The way that they're behaving or managing their vocabulary isn't appropriate, and we've got huge expectations of people to be able to just do the right thing, but unless we tell them what it is, they're not going to know. We've got the neurotypical world which I've already outlined comes from our history. But our history is also about the way that we've worked and treated disabled people for centuries. When you try and research the history of disability, you can kind of get two websites that's it but it's not like disabled people just appeared in the last 200 years.

Speaker 2:

They've always been there, so we've got this strange history where the church was in charge and we thought people were cursed or we thought people were blessed and special, but the most important thing was they couldn't live at home, they had to be separate and looked after. Then we got medicine and science and we were still saying, yeah, fantastic, now we can cure lots of problems and help people. But if your disability isn't health related, the medical model only gives you so much. We didn't get disability rights in this country until the early 1990s, and that's very, very recently.

Speaker 2:

So our language, our terminology, the things that you used to get diagnosed with in the 17th century as a learning disability or a physical disability, and now terms of offense that people use in normal language idiot moron. People don't know that, don't know that we've actually got a really negative perception because of the things that came before us. So I'm taking on the role officially as the little boy in the emperor's new clothes fairy tale. I'm telling people look, this is what we do, it's wrong, let's change it. Don't be ashamed, just do something different from now on. Recognize, go out your way to to understand. If you know you've got a dyslexic member of staff, go out and find about dyslexia yeah, don't just do a google and a wiki get

Speaker 2:

yourself to the british dyslexia association, spend 20 minutes of your life finding out about it and then making the changes that you need to do. Nearly all of the support organizations in this country have how to support people at work who are dyslexic, who are dyspraxic. Adhd, autistic Neurodiversity and neurodivergence is a brand new. It's not brand new, but it's actually just coming to its own. So we've got you know research that's actually just coming to its own. So we've got you know research that's starting to develop to give us a real evidence of the way to move forward because of our new understanding that actually difference isn't bad. Yeah, it's. You were diagnosed quite often with something that ends with the word disorder, but actually my autism doesn't make me disordered, it's a misnomer. I feel like my autism is one of the key strengths that I've got. It's been an amazing boon to me and I've always used it without knowing that was what I was doing. So I think a lot of people won't realise that some of the stuff that maybe makes them overthink a little bit for the dark tea time of the soul and you can't get the thoughts out of your brain, but actually you're planning for the next day and what you're going to do next because of the way that you think about the world, will make the world better or will improve something for your employer. The um, the subtle changes can make the world of difference.

Speaker 2:

When I train employers, I talk about four basic premises. You need to see your employees, and I'll pause a moment there. Actually, this is what I teach for neurodivergent employees, but it isn't really. It can be for everybody. The employers that have taken it on board love it and they're like why are we so simple, you've got to see somebody. You need to recognize who they really are. Are their strengths, how do they work? How do we support them to be their very best? As if you had a student come onto you on placement, you work on what the parameters are to get the best out of them. Everybody's doing it with their employees, but actually we are trying to fit that individual into the system that we've already got.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Do we need to do that? Do we need to peel everything back and wonder what does that system exist for? What is the purpose? What is the purpose of my business? What are the tasks that make that purpose function? How does this individual, now that we've recognised them, fit into that? Is it through a traditional job description or is it not?

Speaker 2:

Then, when you've recognised who that person is, you support them? What is that? What do they need? Do they need a special mouse? Do they need a special chair? Do they need to work from half 10 until seven at night, rather than from half eight till five? Do they need a nap? Can they go and sit in a dark room and have a nap over lunchtime and then come back and get on with life afterwards? Do they need a work coach to help them coordinate their diary afterwards? Do they need a work coach to help them coordinate their diary? Do they need I don't know a place to go and pray? What do they need?

Speaker 2:

Put the support in place, because when you've recognized somebody and respected them for who they are, put in the support that they need to do the job without making them feel less because they have something they need, then actually you've created safety and everyone. We are animals at heart. We're looking for safety, we want a nest, we want somewhere we're comfortable and safe, and if we can provide that as employers, then what more will people need? Because once you've put safe, seen, supported safe, you get success, and that's what everybody wants, isn't it? The successful employee creates a successful business, of course, yeah. What I want people to start to do is to think about it from a supported employment perspective. We believe that anyone can work. What you need is the right support. You need your four S's, but you also need the right employer and you need the right match of tasks that that person is undertaking. If you can match tasks employee, employee and employer then you've got a winning combination, haven't you? Yeah, but what people tend to do in the modern world is have a business, have your cogs that fit into the business based on job descriptions yep, then you're looking for people to fit the cog.

Speaker 2:

Actually, what about the whole business? Is there part of your business you can't recruit to? Are there roles that you just can't get anybody to fill? Why, we've got plenty of people who are looking for work. What is it about the structures that make it inaccessible for them. What can you do to create as many safe environments as possible? So sometimes, for our adults with learning disabilities, we may craft and carve. What's your job description? What parts of this job can this person do to the very best of their abilities? You get the best workers who aren't there for the sake of having a job, because they love their work, but they may not be able to do the entire job description that you've got on your system. What do you want? Somebody who will work part-time and put their heart into it and do the best, or somebody who's just here for you know, getting the money and going home at the end of the day?

Speaker 2:

yeah and if you put that into the world of neurodivergence and diversity, what you get is an employee who maybe has never considered themselves as a worker before, but who you have respected and trusted and helped develop into themselves. So it's it's all about respect and seeing people as individuals and working forwards from that, but recognizing that actually we call it social valorization. People are aware if there's somebody different in the workplace, we notice we're. We're tuned to notice difference in order to keep ourselves safe. Yeah, that's why everybody knows I'm weird and I'm allowed to say that about myself. It's apparently the same coming inwards, but people have always known I was different at work. People come to me to ask specific questions because I've swallowed a dictionary or because I've gone down that rabbit hole and obsessed about something, but other people may have felt uncomfortable because of that.

Speaker 1:

If my workplaces had all been aware of my autism and all of my colleagues had known that, both me and the people I previously worked with possibly would have felt more comfortable and that's exactly what I've got now, and it works brilliantly for me one, one case that I'll share with you because I think you'll really appreciate this, and um is one of the first times I was sort of made aware of. Essentially, the university was. Something I didn't know too much about was I had a lady called shirley spores on um on this podcast a couple years ago and she um, there's a production manager at a company called Axe Bell. So they work with Dual Lux, so a big company in Northumberland, and they have employed people who are either with disabilities or sort of neurodiversity and they went.

Speaker 1:

She talked in detail about the process and what I found really interesting is they said that there was things they didn't. They didn't anticipate there so many positives that they never imagined. For actually, when they, when they planned it, they wanted to to change, to bring people in who were different, because they wanted to be, to do something, to do something great and give people an opportunity and change their environment to make it safe for them, which they did. But what they also found a knock-on effect is the positive impact that had on the rest of the team to work with people who were in different institutions, who didn't think like that, they weren't able to, and the impact that has on their culture is unbelievable and it was amazing I don't see it enough, but it was.

Speaker 2:

It was amazing I don't see it enough but it was such a good case study of how it can work so effectively we have such a broad range of staff within durham enable we didn't go out of our way to recruit different kinds of people but, it's such a safe place that actually you can disclose, you can feel comfortable to tell people.

Speaker 2:

We've got members of staff who are visually impaired. I work alongside a lady who has down syndrome. I am one of five autistic people. It's um. We've got people who, um have physical disabilities. We've got two people who've got hearing impairments. We haven't gone out of our way to do that at all. They are perfectly brilliant professionals. But having that diversity enables our customers to also have aspirations. It's that low level we're not. We don't think we're doing anything, but we're representing and the representing makes a difference. And actually when I did um a course, um about lgbtq and um, the course facilitator said just get some flags, pop them in prominent places and people will know that they're safe. I need a list to tell us who's safe in which building. We need you to represent so we know we can.

Speaker 2:

So for us that means as many disabled people in as many occupations as possible, because if we can represent, then people will know and you can, you know, work your ambitions through yeah, I'm really proud of the apprenticeship work because I think if disabled young people can be encouraged not to just look at the barriers like the generations that have come before them, imagine what differences they can make to the next round of young people coming in and then the next round again yeah and by the time we've got you out fully disclosing and proud disabled people in positions of power rather than this kind of, it feels like you're building an extension.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I get 100 percent.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's the difference between saying things and doing things.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, definitely Meaningful inclusion saying things and doing things yeah, and meaning meaningful inclusion ticking boxes yeah, because you think you should.

Speaker 2:

Let's have a quarter for so many disabled people in the workplace. Actually, if you evaluate your workplace, you've already got disabled people. You've already got people who are adhd. You've already got people who are autistic, who are probably safe in their little environment, but maybe not safe en masse. One of the really successful things that we've done is, as part of the supported employment process, we do something called vocational profiling, which sounds a little CIA, doesn't it? It does actually.

Speaker 2:

Getting to know people a bit like we would do as careers advisors, but we get a bigger run at it rather than the hour session where you've got to be very tactical. I can spend quite a long time getting to know somebody in order that we can create that match for the supported employment that works so well. But I was on my route to my autism diagnosis when I began doing that and I was a little bit obsessed with autism. Funnily enough, I discovered different representations of how we can understand autism differently to the medical diagnosis, but was also aware that people have never gone through that and never talked about their differences in an open, calm and pleasant environment. Everything is deficit-based. All of the diagnoses are about what you can't do, where it's difficult. If you're a parent, it's about when did you notice the difference in your child? Spoiler I didn't, because he's exactly the same as me, which makes it really hard yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it makes sense we started creating individualized profiles for our neurodivergent customers.

Speaker 2:

I look at the differences in pragmatic language, social communication, monotropic focus. Is it black and white? Will it ever end or is it always done? How do you process information? Are you thinking information? Are you thinking in pictures? Are you thinking in words? Do you need frequently asked questions for everything that you do? Yes, what's your sensory profile? Are you experiencing the world in the way that we expect you to Do? You know that you're experiencing the world in a different way to other people. Are you someone who needs repetition in your lives? Are you a person who can do the same thing over and over, and over, and over, and, over and over again and love it? Or are you like me and get bored within five minutes and start adding flowers and stars to it? And then finally, new remote control, a different way that autistic people either don't have much of a control over their body or actually are incredible, and that's where their strength lies. So once we break it down into the seven categories and spend a couple of weeks chatting to people, you can build up who you are, with positive strengths, but also identifying some of the challenges that might need the adjustments. And that's the order we would do it. We're not looking at what you can't do. We're not looking at what's broken. We're not looking at how bad things are, because that's no way to build your future job, is it? What you want to do is find what you're good at, what you enjoy doing as well as being good at is key, and we create this full profile.

Speaker 2:

The first time I did it was with a young lad who got a start in a hospital and we created the profile. He got the job. He went through the interview process and then started. Didn't want any in-work support at all. This was in the fledgling stages of our project. Now everyone gets in work support. He didn't want any, but within three weeks he was phoning me up going. I can't cope with this. Can't cope with this. They're talking to me. They keep um touching me, they want me to go to the christ party and idle chit chat. I do not want to know what Betty did over the weekend and he couldn't do the social side of his job Because actually that isn't on the job description. What training can you give people?

Speaker 2:

when I'm doing this job, I can do everything on the job description and if we take it back a step, actually tell me a little bit about yourself was the worst interview question for this young man, because he wanted to match his life to the job description, because that's how he was getting the job and that's across the board for all of my autistic customers. Do not ask that question first. If you want to know. Ask it as a part of the other questions when someone's disclosed something. But asking someone that the first question, you'll get a rabbit in the headlights yeah, I'll dump interviews entirely, mind, but we'll move on from that well, actually it's one, that's all.

Speaker 1:

I'll let you go soon, because this is amazing actually. One question I really want to ask actually is because I think we are a recruiter, that's what we do, but I think the process of hiring people is so archaic and we hire anyone from high-level managerial people to welders, to engineers, all different sorts of people who have different sorts of jobs, but pretty much the process is exactly the same for each and every single one of them. In fact, sometimes we've had technical blue-collar roles. They've asked them to do a presentation when it's never not part of their job at all and they could fail on that one. They could be an unbelievably fantastic good co-developer.

Speaker 1:

So I I really dislike that about the, about not just manufacturing, but every industry. I think it's it's still like that. If you could change that, you know, if you could change that process in essence to make that more inclusive for people, what, what would be the first thing and this could be, this could be for a hr manager or hiring manager, whoever who has the ability to change that process what would be a tweak you would make? Do you think?

Speaker 2:

I would ask the question what is the point? What are you doing and why are you doing it? Basic what does that person need to do that you want them to be brilliant at? Is it Be brilliant at job interviews?

Speaker 2:

Then you can get anybody using a job interview process, but if that's got nothing to do with their job, do you know? You're going to work on the bins, sitting in an office wearing a suit that you wear when someone dies and when someone gets married and when you're in court. You're not comfortable, you're not representing yourself. They're not getting the best out of you. Why do we keep doing it to people? It doesn't make sense. If you've got a job where you need to do presentations, yeah, excellent. If you've got a job where you need to think on your feet, yeah, understandable, but even so, without changing anything, I would suggest that people send the questions out in advance, unless it's something where you really want people to think on their feet, in which case tell them that there's going to be a question, a surprise question, that you're going to have to do on the day. What we're doing is creating scenarios that are mostly based on social skills, and all of the psychology suggests that seven percent of what you say is the message people get. That means 93 percent is in body language, is in other areas that you don't necessarily have control on, particularly if you're neurodivergent.

Speaker 2:

Interviews represent people who are good at interviews. So what is the job should we take that refuse collector, stick him back in his high-vis and go out on the wagon. While you're on the wagon, have a chat, ask your interview questions. Then, when they're in the zone, when they're doing the job, stand at the back of the wagon and ask the health and safety questions. Stand in a stupid place behind the wagon and see if they shift you. What is the performance of the person in a performative job? It makes so much more sense. We really push for work trials. Our customers sometimes would have a learning disability and wouldn't necessarily function in a job interview, but that doesn't mean that they're not going to be the best cleaner that you've ever had, or the best lollipop person or behind a counter. What do you want them to do and how are you assessing whether they're going to be good at it or not? Because what we're doing at the moment is saying look at this orange, I want you to be an apple yeah, my logical, autistic brain can't join the two together.

Speaker 2:

If you're gonna interview, send the questions out ahead of time, but also send a little bit of respect. What are you expecting? How long will the interview last? How long do you want people to talk answering the questions? I need that. I need that. I'll be in there for hours, or some people will just say yes or no. Try not to ask double questions. Telling people to be comfortable can sometimes have the opposite effect.

Speaker 2:

All of it is artificial. If you're doing a short list for five people, why don't you bring them all in and do some activities and see how they interact, see who was interacting in a particular situation? Do tests, do assessments of the work that you need to be doing? But quite often is it about working in a team. Why are the teams never at the interview? Why aren't they experiencing what it's like to work together?

Speaker 2:

Why can't your prospective employee be interviewing you? Why can't we turn it around? Because actually it's a two-sided thing. You're not buying a person. You're creating a relationship which will be contracted to undertake certain things. Use all of that as a basis and make it much more real. We seem to think that because things have always existed, that that's how you do everything. You don't have to throw the baby out with the bath water. But you can certainly look at what you're doing and investigate why your recruitment's not working. In fact, if you want to upscale your workforce with neurodivergent people which we will if you treat us correctly then ask for them in the job interview, in the job advert, sorry, say. We are very interested in applicants who see themselves as neurodivergent. It's the same as putting your pride flag in your reception. Come here, you're welcome. We want you, we'll try and understand you and get the best out of you.

Speaker 1:

Perfect that is. He communicated that so unbelievably well and it just makes perfect sense. I'm going to summarise this episode now because it's been brilliant and I'm not going to do it justice. But I just want to summarize this episode now because it's been brilliant and I'm not going to do it justice, but I just want to think I felt it was going to be one. I was going to learn from them, and it's absolutely one. I've learned loads from. You know.

Speaker 1:

What I found really interesting is that what we talked about here is a specific subject, but actually it almost isn't, because this is essentially a management podcast, it's a leadership podcast, and I've had people on here which have talked about building environments which are safe environments where people can learn, and this is exactly the same, and that's why I've loved it, because there will be people who, I think, see the word neurodiversity and just go ooh, I'm not prepared for that. But actually you've explained so unbelievably well that actually you are creating an environment which is a safe place for everybody to learn it's as simple as that and not just to learn but to progress and to get the best out of that person which gets the best out of the business, and everybody wins, and I think that alone will take some of the anxiety, anxiety way of hiring of managers and leaders, who probably have avoided this topic, if you like, because they don't feel they've got the skills to do so. But actually it is so well timed because the the management has changed over time. You've got you've no longer got this people accepting this dictatorship type environment where people must do as they're told.

Speaker 1:

Emotional intelligence is now probably the most important aspect of leadership management and people come on here and talk about it all the time and I think it's fantastic. This is just another version of emotional intelligence for me, where people just understand the person in front of them and they have a diverse skill set to try to make sure that person is feel safe so they can be honest and open about how they're feeling. So this has been an amazing episode and I really appreciate growing carol. Just finally, if people want to reach out to you for some additional advice training, everything else how do they find you? What's the best way?

Speaker 2:

well, probably through the Durham Enable website we're the only one out there you can um use your search engine of choice to find us. Um, I think it's dot gov, dot. Uk. Oh my god, I can't remember.

Speaker 1:

I'll also link. Obviously I'll put your LinkedIn stuff in there as well, so people can also via the county council as well.

Speaker 2:

We're part of the council, um, but what we can offer employers is recruitment. We not only are able to job match to your business, we can also um support the process of understanding the work that you do, creating a job analysis and reducing that to a task analysis and then supporting our job seekers into the roles. So induction is an awful lot easier when you've got a Durham Enabled Job Coach beside the person. We learn the tasks, we teach the individual the tasks and then we ensure that you're able to give them the support longer term to do that. So actually, for a lot of people, save them quite a lot of money and allow them to create a much more diverse workforce, which makes them more money as well and I think that is so well timed because we're in a world with massive skill shortages and people saying they can't find people.

Speaker 1:

Well, there's people out there, you know. So I think to do that we talk about 100 different way.

Speaker 2:

Open your mind to what your business is doing, what you want it to do, and then think differently.

Speaker 1:

Love it. Thank you, carol. That was great. We appreciate it. Thanks, man. Thank you so much for listening or watching this episode of the Manufacturing Leaders Podcast. Please just like or subscribe. It really helps grow the show and obviously improve the industry.

Speaker 1:

If you want any more information about Theo James, as I mentioned midway through the episode, please get in touch with me or the team. I would love to talk about how it can help you directly or your business. We are more than just a recruiter and I know people say that, but it's something I'm incredibly passionate about. We are in business for much more than just a bums on seats approach. We want to help people grow, we want to help improve their lives and, ultimately, I want to work with businesses and people who share the same values as we do, and that's something I'm incredibly passionate about. So please, if that is you and you are passionate about that dream role or passionate about your people, please get in touch with me or the team. I would absolutely love to talk a bit more detail. Thank you very much. Speak soon.