Manufacturing Leaders

Matthew Stephenson M.D of Sweetdreams Ltd: Key Lessons from Building & Selling a Manufacturing Business

• Mark Bracknall • Season 11 • Episode 3

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In this episode, Matthew Stephenson, Managing Director of Sweet Dreams, shares his inspiring 18-year journey — from launching a quirky confectionery brand to selling it successfully to Sugar Rich. He opens up about the highs, lows, and key leadership lessons along the way.

🔹 Leadership means making tough decisions that impact people you care about
 🔹 Building a “mental box” helped him compartmentalise challenges and stay focused
 🔹 ChocNibbles evolved into a standout brand with a bold, disruptive personality
 🔹 Managing the sale himself brought authenticity — but also real pressure
 🔹 A small, trusted team of honest advisors was vital to the deal’s success

🎧 If you enjoyed this episode, please like and subscribe to help the show grow.
 💬 Passionate about finding your dream role or building a brilliant team? Let’s connect.

Please subscribe to the channel for more content! Theo James are a Manufacturing & Engineering Recruiter based in the North East, helping Manufacturing and Engineering firms grow across the UK. Please call us on 0191 5111 298

Speaker 1:

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Manufacturing Leaders Podcast with me, mark Bracknell, marketing Director of Theo James Recruitment. What an episode I have for you today. Today we interviewed Matt Stevenson, the MD of Sweet Dreams. This was a fascinating story of the 18 and a bit years of Sweet Dreams until, essentially, the sale they've gone through. They have now been bought out by a business called Sugar Rich and it was a no holes barred, real, open, honest conversation which Matt took us through all the stages of the business, which included in detail the sale and the lessons he's taken from that sale, which a lot of business leaders will, I'm sure, enjoy and benefit from. However, the overriding message for me which any business leader and anyone in management can take from this is the importance of making decisions as a business leader and how hard those decisions can be sometimes, but essentially ones we must take to benefit ourselves and the business. And he uses a lot of strategy and analogies to make sure you're going to come away from this episode a better leader and a better decision maker. So you're going to come away from this episode a better leader and a better decision maker. So I just want to thank Matt for this, because I really enjoy this episode Probably one of my most enjoyable episodes I've ever recorded and I absolutely can't wait to see what the next stage for Sweet Dreams has in store.

Speaker 1:

So thank you, matt, and thank you so much for everyone for listening or watching. Please, please, please, as ever, do me a favor and just like and subscribe to keep engaging and helping this channel grow. So thank you very much. I hope you enjoy the episode. Marvellous right. A massive warm welcome to Matt Stevenson, the MD of Sweet Dreams, and we're looking forward to interviewing today. How are we, matt? You all right?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I'm not bad not bad, a little nervous. This is my first time, so go gentle with me.

Speaker 1:

No, absolutely. We've had a good warm-up conversation there and all things Chotnib, so well. Actually, I shall ask you the first question. Ask everyone first, then we'll go into the business. But the first question is the same as I ask everyone what does it mean to you to be a leader?

Speaker 2:

What do you say I? You gave me a heads up on this and I'm not sure I. I find it difficult to call myself a leader. Um, my, I'm very ingrained in family businesses. Throughout my career, I've been a a strong point and when you're in a family business, you've also always got a reservation of are you as good as you think you are and do people think you're as good as you can be? Um, because you've all, everyone, you've got that self-doubt, that because it's family business, you're slightly protected and so on, so forth. Um, but being a leader is do I think I'm a leader? Yeah, I do, because I kick doors down. I care we, uh, I'd like to think I've built a very honest business. Um, I am quite happy to say what's not wanted to be heard, as well as say what should be told. So, yeah, I think it's. Yeah, as a leader, I think I am one. I'm just not sure of it. Does that make sense?

Speaker 1:

It does make sense, because actually I resonate with that. Because when are you a leader? Because you know it's the difference if an engineer is pulled into a room and and which happens and said, right, you've got a promotion. Well done, you know a leader. You know you know a team leader. Are they a leader from that day on, because it says on LinkedIn that's what they are, or is it when they feel like they can confidently lead people because that's a? It takes a while to transition to that confidence, isn't it?

Speaker 2:

You said something interesting confidently lead people, right? I think I knew I became a leader when I stopped worrying what people thought about me, right? Whether I, by the way, I've made some huge errors in my life, uh, and I have got. I'm very terrible at reading the room. Um, I'm I'm very terrible at reading the room. I'm a bit too. I say my mouth speaks before my brain possibly engages sometimes.

Speaker 2:

But a number of years back, I realized that I was having to do things that had emotive consequences to people I cared about, but the business required it. And I also had to do things that were emotive and were for the individual and that affected the business. Right, and it's still hard. I'm still really bothered about what people think about me. It never, ever goes away, but I can box it off. I can move on. I think it's a sign of a psychopath or a sociopath is that I can move on.

Speaker 2:

There's a big conflict. I can do the conflict, discuss the conflict, have the conflict, then move on and not refer back to the conflict. It doesn't. I'm inherently lazy about the fact that, yeah, we've had strong words, but it doesn't affect how I'm going to look at you the fact that, yeah, we've had strong words, but it doesn't affect how I'm going to look at you, speak to you, behave with you afterwards, and I think that's when I if I you know, upon reflection, when I managed to box that off, that whatever ever had to be done, good or bad, to lead the business or to lead the individual to where the natural journey was going or where it should go, I think that be the time when I I could say I was a leader and I'm a leader, is that ability to box it off and pull the business or pull the individual in the direction that I felt that we needed to go, whether that was right or wrong, I, I, I, you know, I, yes, I caution that, um, but yeah, I think that is, if you're going to feel like your leader, is that Whatever you're trying to achieve in your role, you're prepared to do it and hopefully, 90 percent of that time is to do good.

Speaker 2:

The end result is a good result for all inclined and you're prepared to bring people with you, client, and you're prepared to bring people with you, yeah, um, and that's when I think I became a leader, when I stopped worrying about the ripple effect of where it goes.

Speaker 2:

So, whether that's customer, supplier, employee, your home life or whatever you know your ability to say this is the direction we need to go, this is the right thing to do for whoever the silo you're affecting, and I'm prepared to either pull the levers to divert the ship that way, or whether I'm prepared to do the this is where we're going or this is what is happening, and go for that. I think that's that's my sign of a leader and I you know I'm very vocal. I talk too much. I am very transparent and honest, like I say, going to good or bad, whatever I'm doing, I'm very, very descriptive of why and this is my reasoning let's discuss it. If I'm still sat there going, it's the right thing. But then I think that when I sort of got myself into that role, I was prepared to be that person. I sometimes do share a little bit too much of the reasoning, but I think that gets engagement. Then, yeah, that's my leadership skills and that's what.

Speaker 1:

And I think that's very important. I that's something that I still struggle with, but not as much as I used to, because I was thinking when you're, when you were talking there, the situations that I don't get as as nervous about as I used to, you know. You know, let's say, exiting some of the business I used to I should not sleep before. You know that, and and, and now I do sleep. That's horrible, but I think you understand the justification behind things, don't you? That actually, the goal is to make sure you've always got food on the table for the people who work for you and your own family, and if that means making a decision, do you think you grow into that just as you get older and you care less genuinely what people think about you? Or is it you understand the role you are doing in the business, whether you own the business or you lead a team in the business? Because, is that? Do you know what I mean? It's a tricky one, isn't it? Because it just happened overnight, or not?

Speaker 2:

No, I just create a box. I won't go into any detail, but there was an event that happened recently which was uncomfortable and it's the first one in many years that I sidelined myself. I was in the room but it was an incredibly difficult and personal decision and I really it was absolutely 100% right for the business and it was really, really hard and that's the first time ever and it's interesting. I brought a colleague in to help me with that and I said I haven't slept for days and it was really strange. It hasn't been like that for a long time. It takes me so procrastination is my best friend when it has to happen. I still don't sleep the night before, I still don't.

Speaker 2:

I was quite nervous about this. You know, we're all human, um, but I that's the first time, you know, and I really I spoke to my wife about it and I said, look, I'm really struggling and I understood and I I grow. I'll box that bit off because whoever was involved was a superb person doing, doing their best, there's no doubt about it. They, you know, super individual. I'd recommend them anywhere else. Um, just wasn't quite working here and the direction, and you know, it was a business, purely business decision, and I was quite distressed about it, and I haven't seen that side of me. Beyond that, though, I've just created a box that I have to visit every now and again. You know, you have self-doubt and you can make a decision in. Four weeks later I could be on the golf course driving to work. It's like god, i'm'm still strong on that, um, but then I have developed the ability to put it in that box, and it's interesting, that box really became god. I'll write a book about the box. Um.

Speaker 2:

That box became really useful when I was selling the business, because we had big decisions to make that affected all of my workforce but, more importantly, my family and also me. So I had no sort of like direction that I'm doing this for the benefit of somebody else or anything, and it was finite. The decisions we were making were finite once they were done, and if a signature got to a stage, it was done, whereas everything else in my world up until now, I've been able to go. Well, if I do that, I'm sure I can find a way out. If I get this wrong, I can step back, readjust, go again. That's what entrepreneurs do Everyone's been knocked down, made wrong decisions, and we all get to the point where somebody you know normally somebody else goes. Matt, you really fucked this up. Sorry, matt.

Speaker 1:

It's all right. It's not the BBC, yeah.

Speaker 2:

That year of it dragging on. Yeah, and it's a really interesting dynamic that it because we weren't, it wasn't a distress sale, it was a strategic sale. People were wooing me and it's been a long time since, beyond box suppliers and film suppliers and stuff that people have really tried to woo me because they were, they knew I was choosing rather than I have to sell this business, and that box became really important because, I don't know, when you buy a new pair of trainers, you know you get out of the box, look yourself in the mirror and you go, yeah, I look cool, right, and then you put them back in the box and you wait a couple of days and you go try them on just to sense it, and then you can always return them. Yeah, yeah, I was having to make decisions that I knew massively impacted everybody in my environment. Um, really personally, because we'd been a really personal business but my kids, you know, I mean my wife, my mother-in-law, knew about it. You know, it's just it was all encompassing.

Speaker 1:

so, yeah, that little box is how I I sort of deal with it and I think that's a nice analogy because if you think about the box, you know you, a lot of people probably think you box up your emotions and actually in many situations you have to. You have to to take the emotion out of it and bring in data and and and less gut instinct. But ultimately, like I said, once those decisions are made, it could be a week, a month down the line or whatever it is that that box will be opened and those things will come out. Have you gone through and we'll go back before we go forward in terms of have you gone through many of that over the last year? Where you've had, you've sort of when you've had the downtime, you've sort of gone? I've just got to. I've got to sort of compute all this sort of stuff now and analyze what's happened.

Speaker 2:

Uh, yeah, um, but uh, you know I'm going to be very I'll have to be very mindful that I don't come across as bragging, okay, I'll have to be very mindful that I don't come across as bragging, okay, but Sugar Rich have been brilliant owners. Yeah, it's not been easy. I've been a cultural bomb to their existence. The market, fmcg, food manufacturing, retailers, consumers has been really difficult to educate up. But all I, the year of selling the business was not fun at all at all and every time I revisited everything. I've just gone back to my peers, the people that I with how they've been through difficult times. You know, because we're a transition into them. You know there's a massive management of change for them and I think I've been extremely lucky. I'd love to say it's because I just knew, but there's a tale to tell about Sugar Rich buying us that I wasn't going to sell to them my reading of the room.

Speaker 2:

The first time I met Alex, my boss, I walked out and went no. My wife said yes, really, yeah, everyone. I went no, and I could not be or have been more wrong about an individual in my life. I can't. I hope he watches this because I've told him this and he did ask me why I said no the first time and I said because he came across, I didn't enjoy it and you know, and I was very lucky, very lucky that A Alex really believed in us and wouldn't let go, and I think that was the bit I didn't like.

Speaker 2:

He was really a little bit more aggressive, um, about buying sweet dreams, and I sort of stepped back a little bit and because if people are like that, I, I do naturally recall, uh, so can I work with this individual? And uh, so when I opened that little bit of a box about the year beforehand, um, it's quite nice, yeah, my reflections are, uh, really positive. But there's also decisions I've made in the past, uh, about the business that you know, when I I do go through like, oh, I still feel uncomfortable about the direction of travel I took there, it was obviously ultimately where we are today Sweet dreams, very successful and we've only got a great future ahead. So I kind of justify the. You know that the shower thought, yeah, I kind of justify it in that, um, I've delivered for sweet dreams.

Speaker 2:

Sweet dreams is a being, it's a thing, it's personal to me, it's got a real personality. The people who are ultimately successful here are aligned to that personality, which is very positive, very personal, not as polished as maybe corporate life and the people I know from corporate. Um, and I think, whatever happens now, I've delivered a business that is only going to blossom and grow. Um, god, that sounds pretentious.

Speaker 1:

No, no, it sounds. It sounds to me like passion of a business owner, proud of, proud of what you've done, and that that's, that's that comes across.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, but some owners, probably what you're doing, that and that, that's, that's that and that comes across. But some of the decisions that have been unpleasant yeah right, have got us to this end result. Yeah, and it'll go back to your. That's a leader, that that you know that. That's that's how I look at it.

Speaker 2:

Now, sitting here as md of a great little business in a fantastic company, working with really good people, I'm very fortunate, um, but I do look and think, okay, people might look and say, uh, matthew's not very good, or you know, I mean, but I, I challenge anybody to say, as an entity and a personality, that Sweet Dreams is whatever it's making, I've delivered it to a place that can only be considered successful. That's the team I've had with me, the good and the bad. Some of our customers have been. I'll mention Janine Masson at B&M. She's an incredible woman that helped me. Some of the customers there's been a retailer that we've had a particular falling out because my personality has come out.

Speaker 2:

Where I haven't been corporate. That has really frightened me. I really thought we were going to go bust. Yeah, and I made some things with people being in the right spot, the right role, all of that, but ultimately I can sit here now. I think we're very close to having a leadership team. We've got a couple of gaps. That says I might not be needed, but as a business that I've nurtured for nearly 20 years, I can genuinely say, as I'm looking at my new carpet and my nice car park in my new factory, owned by people that are really good at what they do and how they talk to my team and me about good and bad, I think, yeah, I'd struggle to not have some reflection and go well done absolutely, because you've been true to yourself as well yeah, I, I, yeah.

Speaker 2:

I always hide behind that phrase. I'm inherently lazy in that. I can't be bothered to be somebody else. I'm a terrible liar because I forget what lie I've told. It's an absolute terror of mine. I couldn't play poker for my life. Terrible negotiator. But yeah, it is. And now it needs, by the way, way now it needs to grow up. Now it needs that a bit more corporate compliance, a bit more diligence, a bit more detail. And you know that might not be my strong point, but I've completely brought, bought into it.

Speaker 1:

And that's the journey we have to go now, because the plans for the business is large, um, so, yeah, so answer your thing, look back, reflect on that year and yeah, it's been good I want to talk, obviously I want to talk about a sale, but briefly, just so we've got some, some context, I guess, of a business which you know 18 and a half years old, which is in itself brilliant. Um, can you give me a brief introduction? I said before, when we're off air, that my team were very excited when I said who I was interviewing today.

Speaker 2:

They'll be very excited by that. They won't last long. We'll send some honeycomb. Oh yeah, they'll be the ones, absolutely. Here's a bit of a plug. We've done an exclusive of Heron and B&M stores on honeycomb, so I'll send some of that down.

Speaker 1:

Amazing come. So I'll send some of that down. Amazing, yeah, I'll. Uh, I won't tell them I'll be surprised. So but for those that um live on the rock and perhaps haven't tried them, what, give us a brief intro of the business, what you manufacture and what I guess you're famous for okay.

Speaker 2:

So our most famous thing is choc nibbles, and choc nibbles was a product known as Northumberland fudge. That was very localized, made out of some of your listeners or viewers I don't know how podcasts work Might remember a company in Pontyland called Dobson Sweets and they made fizz bombs and so on and so forth and they developed a Chuck Nibble. So, look, we are stepping away from what ChocNibble is, from being a truth. So ChocNibble is basically imagine a Twix in a bite. It's biscuit, chocolate and caramel. And our supply chain is quite unique in that we source from non-primary raw material, so it's a sustainable product, right? Uh, that product would go elsewhere, that wouldn't get into a consumer's basket and that'll take you to where we're going with our branding and so on. But we we haven't quite got a message, you're right, so I won't go fully into that. But it's completely unique in what it does and we feel in my travels in confectionery well, I've been in it 30 years we're the only ones doing this properly off scale in this sector, but it's always confectionery. So it's called Northumberland Fudge and it was a tiny little thing and I used to sell sweet jars plastic sweet jars.

Speaker 2:

My background is packaging, injection, stretch injection, blow injection, molding, thermoforming and that kind of thing. I used to sell the sweet jars. I was a young kid, got told by my dad, I've got his business. That's got a sweet jar business. I don't know what to do with it. Pvc traditional sweet jars go and do it.

Speaker 2:

And a guy was making this in a tiny little. He had a little machine called betsy who was still out there now doing 20 to 30 tons a week. Amazing, yeah. And he said he was poorly and I went OK, he said I'm just going to shut the place down and I went well, can I buy Betsy off you Now? What I hadn't picked up then was how difficult the supply chain was. Right, if we are waiting for non-primary, we can't go and buy non-primary. We are reliant on non-primary being produced. So it breaks every mold of my degree, my business experience, which is you build up, you have raw materials in here, you have an order book, you have finished stock and you plan your production and you base it and everything. So I bought it on january. Whenever, however many years ago, it's either 17, 18, 19 or 20 years ago, and that can you remember? Um, that 1970s comedy series where the guy lost his job and every day he got dressed up and took his briefcase and went yeah, it'll come to me.

Speaker 1:

So basically, our raw material supplier I do actually, it came to me yeah it'll come to us.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, our raw material. I bought it early january, january the 4th or something like that, and our raw materials got turned off and I was going. I was telling my wife I was going to work and everything was brilliant for the first two or three months and I had sweet fa to make. I had nothing. I had three staff Carol's still with me she runs my factory Colin and Sandra, and they were outside going well, you're the boss, we don't know you. What do you do? I was, however, many years old 30 years old never owned my own business and it was horrible. And then I realized that my product was more about the supply chain than it was about the finished product. And so I re-engaged with our supplier and identified other suppliers that we had a unique offering to them that was commercially better for them, and also we had a product that was completely unique because we looked at the product and it looked like it does now. And we had a real my wife and I had a real chat Should we make it look more polished? Should we make it look more engaging to the eyes? And my wife she's from marketing she just turned around and said we went and looked at loads of shelves and stuck our bag on it and this odd dog treat, looking reindeer, poo reminding treat stood out because it looks so odd. People saying what on earth is that? And so that's when choc nibbles as it is, it used to be nibs, northumbrian fudge. We tried all of them. Chocolate original choc nibbles came about and so we focused on the traditional sweet jars. And there's a chap called jonathan summery who is now ce CEO of World of Sweets, which is the biggest confectionery cash and carry. He's a super company and Jonathan was a confectionery buyer and I went to see him. He was my only customer really, and he could have had me on toast. I walked in and went I don't know what I'm doing and do you know what? Unfairly, he's got a reputation of being that kind of buyer that will have you on toast and it's absolutely not true. I walked in there and went I don't know what I'm doing, and he said right, okay, this is the price you need to sell at. This is what you need to do on your labels. We'll get it in all our distribution, we'll push it, we'll support it. He asked for exclusivity and I went give me at least a month to know what I'm doing before I give it away. And he said, fine, and jonathan summerly helped me get my distribution right. He opened doors on my raw materials. He introduced me to his network. He was an astonishing chap and he's still in the industry now. He's still got that horrible reputation that he's a bastard. And on my raw materials. He introduced me to his network. He was an astonishing chap and he's still in the industry now. He's still got that horrible reputation that he's a bastard and he's not. He just knows his onions when it comes to conflict. He's a really, really positive guy.

Speaker 2:

And that's where Chuck Nibble started and we focused just because we've always been restricted and this will come to why I decided to sell the business on our raw material supply. So I couldn't take this and go. I've got something brilliant Tesco's. You know how these disruptive brands do really well. They create a need, they create a want. They've got a consumer that needs it. It's gap on the shelf. They go and do it. I could never do that.

Speaker 2:

Every new customer that came on, I had to sense check whether I could deliver for them based on my raw material supplies. So we stuck to traditional sweet jars and then we started to scale, whilst I realized that my first three years was sorting out my raw material supply chain and that's how the business kind of and chuck nibbles started growing. We started to get more and more confidence in our offering to our supply chain. We became more and more unique and proud of our branding. It was terrible, by the way. I mean really terrible first character, but we still use bert at chuck nibbles. Um, he looked like a penis. I designed him. He had this bald head and my first design was um, he had a roll neck on. Yeah, and it took the designer at the end going matt, do you really want to do this?

Speaker 1:

that's on the apprentice, isn't it?

Speaker 2:

yeah, um, it was terrible, but we just knew our space and what we made was a very profitable business. That then gave me a lifestyle business the first 10 years and I really treated it as such. I very luckily got to spend time on the side of rugby fields and football fields. I spent a lot of time with my kids. My wife would argue that I still wasn't the perfect dad, but we had lovely holidays and I sat back and went okay, we are where we are and I like it. It's secure. We've got really, you know, profitable business. We don't stop growing but we don't really go for the growth because I never had the confidence in the supply chain. And then I had a great meeting with um janine masson from b&m stores and a lady called nadia quinn in a pub in cologne at after midnight and nadia is a very creative confectionery lady or food lady and she said you need to go into bags, let me introduce you to B&M stores. And we had a chat and Janine said yeah, I'll back it, move into bags.

Speaker 2:

And that genuinely that was a negotiation really yeah, and B&M stores without them we would not be here, isn't it Janine? And B&M stores attitude to supply and their suppliers and to disrupt a brand and so, yes, they want it competitive, but they are really them and Home Bargains really disrupted that retail offering. So they were above cash and carry, below malts, tescos, loads of personality, really engaging. If it works, they back it.

Speaker 1:

You know what I mean and that that's where chuck nibbles did this, but people, people tend to go. My wife does anyway when she goes and plays at bm's. You buy stuff on mass as well, don't you? You go right, I'll have 10 of these. When normally you go into a shop and buy one, you'll buy 10 because they're on offer.

Speaker 2:

It's that sort of place, yeah, but it's also somewhere. I think you could be a bit more adventurous.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it is yeah. It's like a little island in Aldi, sort of stuff isn't it.

Speaker 2:

It is. But you know, if you go into a Tesco shop or anything like that, when you go down you have your dedicated mayonnaise and you know that you'll have Heinz Hellmann vegan and so on and so forth, which would be really premium priced, whereas you go into these kind of stores and they're really positive about your experience, they're really well maintained and a really good shopping experience, but they're also priced, so your risk is lower out of your pocket. So you can buy in our sector, cadbury's, which you know, but it's similarly priced to a risk, whereas in the supermarket and Cadbury's are competitively priced. But to get something that's a risk is normally premium priced and so you don't risk, you just go safe and chuck nibbles just became. It was brilliant. We had, we had to buy packaging lines and we just grew. And from that generally, from that step, we and we focused on the discount sector, cash and carry, ctns because because you have to pick in my company, not my company, the company Sweet Dreams ChocNibbles you can't just say I'm going to go for exponential growth, you just can't do it. There's no point doing that unless you've got your supply chain sorted.

Speaker 2:

And so we went and we grew our offering. In that we found a price point of a pound which at the moment, with some research, is possibly not doing us any favors at the moment because consumers are far brighter and far more educated and far more discerning. Price is a decision factor, but it's also a doubt factor. You know what I mean. It's quite interesting. We might have got ourselves into a little bit of a cul-de-sac from that, but we positioned ourselves as a pound. We gave lots of value to the consumer and we dealt with personalities that had good retail distribution. So the buyers that suited my technique, my approach to business, which is honest, transparent. You know, if you want a contract, you can have a contract. But if you shake my hand, it's in my mind, it's the same thing. They're traders, we're traders, we duck and dive a bit and do a deal and so on and so forth. And we, thanks to B&M and now multiple stores, since that's been the exponential growth Jonathan Sumley, who's now CEO and probably has a driver and stuff like that, I don't know, but Hancock's Railway Suites is still our biggest cash and carry customer. B&m is still our biggest retailer, but we've now got a spread where, um, we I consider we are now a national confectionery brand.

Speaker 2:

Um, and we do it by being quirky, different personality, non-uniform, really bloody good, really tasty and a bit odd. And I, I, once again, I challenge anybody who's tried it. They might not like it because discerning taste. There's people who don't like plain milk chocolate. You know, it's not their thing. The texture on the tongue yeah, I, I challenge anybody who's eaten one that knows that not to know it when they see it in the store or if it's handed out. Or whether I challenge anybody, they don't have to like it, but I challenge anybody. If I, you, if I put three cups of chocolate buttons out, you'd have to think about which one's Cadbury, which one's Montezuma's and which one's my own brand, yeah, or something like that.

Speaker 2:

So, yeah, we've created something and I think, once again, by good fortune, but also business decision processing that I knew I couldn't go for massive growth. We've created something that's got a really confident foundation of personality and that is how we plan to use that and we're definitely going to get a bit more professional. Is it professional Over on this side? There's definitely some levers in my world now and decision and gatekeeping and processing and so on, so forth. They're in my world that weren't there three, four, five, six years ago where it'd just be. I've got an impulse. Yeah, I'll just go and crack on um, but we're not losing what chock nibbles represent, and that is also the chock nibbles personality of what we stand for is also lending itself to all our innovation in mpd.

Speaker 1:

That's coming, yeah and I think it's such a fascinating story and I think what I'm really interested in is you are clearly such a passionate leading. You're clearly passionate about the business that you've built, which is amazing to see, because I don't think everyone that is the case for everyone, a lot of people. Just it's a labor of love and and there's a goal and and that's it I. I imagine it was extremely hard for you to decide. This is now a business that I'm gonna sell and and you know, I thought you know what's my goal sometimes and and and I imagine hopefully one day I do I I imagine it'll still be bittersweet because it feels like my baby and and uh, and I mean it's, it's no, no, nothing, no no, not this time.

Speaker 2:

I try to sell it. Do you know what? I got an unsolicited offer in the first three months of covid and I was unsure then. That was a bitters sweet. Should I take it?

Speaker 2:

well, you know, but not this time they changed uh, I knew we were ready, we'd done enough, we were limited and if you want to go into the reason, if you want to go into the, the sale process and what got me to the decision to say that I was going to try and engage. I tried to engage with two partners I won't mention the other one and Sugar Rich because I got to the limit of what I could do with it and everyone knows that really anybody who's done any kind of business studies, even through school, knows the hockey stick of any brand, knows the hockey stick of any brand. Right, and I could genuinely see we were reaching the glass ceiling of what we could do in the space. We couldn't really get into export because I didn't have the infrastructure. We couldn't get into malts. We were very strong in the cash and carry sector. Um, we hadn't got into booker at the time. We'd been been in Booker, came out of Booker, back in Booker, but I was limited about where I could go and my raw material supply coming out of COVID.

Speaker 2:

The attitude to food safety was getting more and more difficult for me to grow and I had a long chat with my wife and then I had some reflection of my own about, right, okay, what was this? So last year was when I sold, so it was a year before, so four years ago. So I would have been 47. Should I sweat this out until I'm 55 and take loads of dividends and just you know, deal with what's in front of me? Yeah, well, frankly, uh, my myers-briggs, I'm a starter, not a finisher. I'm always thinking about the next thing.

Speaker 2:

Very poor to detail, terrible on the detail. Yeah, my natural thing is where am I going, not what am I doing? And I couldn't wither on the vine. I just couldn't. I knew I was going to have to acknowledge. That was the hard part. Yeah, do I acknowledge that I'm going to wither on the vine or do I take a big risk? So we tried to get into some premium chocolate with a brand called gozo. Once again, I'm not a premium product seller, um, it's not in my culture. I'm not refined in how I approach that, in my branding and so on. But we tried that and I looked and went into co-manufacturing. I've been in that. It's difficult for the brand, it's difficult for the manufacturer, and then ultimately, we were at the beck and call of the retailer, tried that and I. So it wasn't, it was just god. There's loads of cliches, please beep out, but it's just like letting your 18 year old son go off to university.

Speaker 1:

Yeah yeah, it's time you've built, yeah, it's definitely time for them to go to university.

Speaker 2:

Please go to university um hear your bikes yeah yeah, it was time that we've.

Speaker 2:

I had to accept that I was going to wither and that was more terrifying than me going right. And throughout the whole sale for us, I always said, if you don't like me, take me out, quite relaxed about it, this is, I'm proud of what I've done. It's time for it to crack on, it's time for it to have a horizon to aim for. Um, and that was the decision, the bit. Once again, I'd look. I chose two people to approach.

Speaker 2:

I didn't tell them I was approaching them, I worked on the supply chain thing. They both had the same presentation, interestingly, except for one slide, and in the slide there's a hierarchy and one of the partner was at the top of it and then the other partner was at the bottom of it and I was in the middle and I was saying I'm your step to get into their market. And to the other partner, sugar Rich, you're there, I'm your step to get into their market. And within a week I said look, and I had a little. I'm not very good at PowerPoint, but I was very proud of my bit that sort of slid in from the side and I said we should either formally partner up or you should buy me.

Speaker 1:

Apologies for interrupting this episode with a very quick announcement about my business. Theo James are a specialist talent provider specifically to the manufacturing and engineering sector. I'm incredibly proud of what we've achieved since our inception in 2015. We specialize in roles from semi-skilled trades right the way up to our TJ exec search arm of the business. Both from the contract and permit side, we offer both bespoke one-off campaigns for heart-to-full roles or a full partnership service where we become an extension of your business. For any information, please get in touch with me or the team. I hope you enjoy the rest of the episode, thank you.

Speaker 2:

And they were like, oh. And then I showed them around the factory, showed them what we could do, showed them my restrictions, all the bad stuff got out of the way. This is why I'm here there, my, there's, my finance. I'm fine, but this is what it is. It's about what we can achieve together with what I've got. And, uh, amazingly, both of them came back within a couple weeks, really said, right, yeah, let's sign, uh, an, an NDA and let's start talking.

Speaker 1:

And I think one thing I'd like to ask you about is a lot of people, when they sell a business, they just bring an expert in, they bring a third party in to do it for them. You've been very involved and that story there, essentially you're telling the story and no one can tell the story better than the owner. I truly believe that Otherwise it just becomes a plug-and-play corporate machine. What lessons have you learned from that? I guess? What are the pros and cons to being very involved in that process? Perhaps someone listening, looking to, maybe go through that, would you say.

Speaker 2:

First, the big con is we'll undersell ourselves to do a deal. We'll do a deal a lot quicker than a corporate finance guy will do. They have different drivers, but they also don't have that emotive thing. You know, I'm like what You're interested. Okay right, you offer me 10 quid, I want 15. How about 12 and a half? You know what I mean.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, at least how you'd negotiate anything with a supplier, I guess.

Speaker 2:

It is you know what I mean and you're hugely invested and the game of poker becomes really really that box becomes really, really big. I tried to go to market before and I did the corporate finance route. I paid somebody to do that market and it did not work. And it goes back to when we did the intro about the loneliness and so on and so forth. There's very few people in my size of business talking about those size of deals Lots of small deals, a quarter million quid, lots of 10 size of deals. Lots of small deals, quarter million quids, lots of 10 million plus deals. There's us in the middle that we're not a big thing. We're not. The commission isn't huge.

Speaker 2:

With the nature of me, it was very difficult to get this energy about how unique we are into and I have some sympathy into that pitch deck or whatever they call it. They call it something and it was just coming across as a confectionery business with this EBITDA. And we was just coming across as a confectionery business with EBITDA and we've got this asset and that asset and we definitely sensed that we were very low on the radar of deals. They're working on multitude ones, got nice offices, big boardrooms and stuff like that and it was rubbish. I cared. I can only say for anybody of business of my size, if it comes that exit, whether it's you were saying before, whether it's bittersweet or whether it's right or whether you're completely comfortable or whatever, uh, we are hugely invested and my, my friends going through it at the moment and we were talking just last week and he said it's really odd, it's like tinnitus in your head. It's this tiny, tiny noise like a mosquito in your room. Everything, every decision, every conversation you're having and you might not be aware of it. It's that right and I feel that if you go to that and that route, if you're somebody similar to my, our size, you're not, the deal's not big enough, it's not something that they're going to plaster all over LinkedIn. They might, you might get a post. There'll be a team of people and ultimately, you know, and understandably, the more senior we'll be dealing with, the bigger deals, the less senior deal with the smaller deals.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely, it's operational, commercial, it's. Do you know what I mean? It's it, I'm gonna and, yeah, it didn't work, it didn't work at all. Um, so when I decided it was the right time to do it and I was going to do it and I had no perceived value on what I was going to sell for. I had no valuation in my head, no multiple, no nothing. The biggest piece I found I'm not strong on finance. I can read a balance sheet. I can do MD finance. You know what I mean. Ultimately, I surround myself with experts.

Speaker 2:

So, I've got a great accountant who does all my tax because I don't want to be bitten on the ass. I've got a great accountant form does all my tax because, you know, I don't want to be bitten on the ass. Uh, I've got a great financial control but I've had great finance people through my business. But what I wanted was somebody and god I hope she takes this as compliment is tend to that was vanilla that dealt with these um sizes of deals as her niche, that wasn't into pitch decks, worked with the client, emotionally linked up with the personality of the seller, was blunt right, very blunt right With me, and I found that so they weren't.

Speaker 1:

Even though they're in corporate finance, they sell businesses it was a very, very unique lady that I dealt with okay, matter of fact, yeah, really, really.

Speaker 2:

She simplified everything for me, spent time with me. It was always me and emma, it was never. I never found myself somewhere else. She wasn't bothered about powerpoint presentations, it was about the numbers, because she trusted me to be able to get somebody in a room. Yeah, and I could get. I could have got five, six, seven. People wanted to buy chuck nibbles because they know how brilliant it is, but I wanted these two. So it's just after that. I can honestly say she was brilliant and the best compliment I can give her is she's still disliked by sugar rich because she was, yeah, she was true to herself and yes, she absolutely was.

Speaker 2:

So if I I identified my buyers, if they turned me down, I don't know where I would have gone. By the way, I might have gone back to the traditional format. I had a feeling a bit like any salesman you know when you're going to go in and, yeah, there's a chance here. It's never a slam dunk, whatever you're selling. But you know, and you've got another one where you know you're part of a process. Yeah, when you sell it, I knew with these two guys, these two companies, that I'd engage with them enough tentatively to know that I'd get them in a room. If I got them in a room, I had, I trusted myself enough to get them interested. But, like all all things, it can fall down. I knew that and that was, by the way, that was in the corner of the box. This might all fall down. How am I going to deal with that? Yeah, that was terrifying and that really was boxed away. But yeah, so if I was going to give anybody advice that they're in a similar position, trust yourself, trust your guts. Find your buyer, find your team. Don't follow. Social media is, uh, very believable, and it's not actually true in a lot of cases. Be prepared to go outside of your. You know I wanted somebody who was prepared to tell I can dominate emotionally and environmentally a conversation that ultimately I might want to end up at my answer. So find somebody who is prepared to tell you what you don't want to hear. Yeah, find somebody that you know actually is invested in you. So Phil at Muckles.

Speaker 2:

Third, claire, he was my lawyer and I've known him for a long time. He's a fellow Sunderland fan, so obviously the greatest lawyer in the Northeast. And Phil was the same. I had a personal relationship with him but I knew that he was invested in me. And Kath, you know we and Muckles were superb as well, and so and I kept it down to just two I knew I was dealing with Emma, knew I was dealing with Phil and he had a very small team, and I knew that they knew how important it was to me and that they could be honest with me when I was being wrong or overzealous or overconfident in what I was asking or I've got.

Speaker 2:

I you could tell when I've been told something I don't like, because my tantrum face is quite obvious. Um, they were there and so I built a team rather than went to shiny, glossy brochure. This is what we do for a living. This, you know, there's all the snazzy lights and stuff. We were a bit more entrepreneurial about it and I I would argue the corporate finance in northeast is lacking that to a degree.

Speaker 1:

That personal touch.

Speaker 2:

Because it's such a fishbowl, you know, I specifically went outside of the region as well. That was the other thing.

Speaker 2:

I did not live in Newcastle or Sunderland or Durham. I wanted an outside so that I was getting that fresh. You know, and this is my personal opinion, because there's some very good people at it that do a super job, that are great people. But I did both ways and I just feel there is a real scope because there's some great businesses and some great owners that will look to sell at some point that that little thing. That, by good fortune, we kind of got together the good lawyer, good advisor, and me at the front and foremost of it, me doing a lot of the interpersonal things, and then me being able to say, speak to them, knowing I trusted them completely, they, they could make a decision. I think is what made it a good one. And it was very interesting at the end because I flipped fires at the last minute. Really, yeah, last minute, last minute Photos and press releases can be written Honestly. Yeah, wow, yeah. And I was really grateful to have my very small team around me.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I bet, I bet, I bet, I bet, when you, when they, when they that called you were like oh my, here we go yeah, yeah, yeah they trusted you, they trusted you, and that's the main thing.

Speaker 2:

Well it's interesting, philip was the one he we had. I mean I'm, but they trusted you and that's the main thing. Well, it's interesting, philip was the one he's we had. I mean, I'm talking 96 hours away from completion, really, yeah, and I still one of my regrets is that the other party I really liked yeah, it was, it was.

Speaker 2:

You know, you've got to remember the two parties I'd gone to. I'd engaged with them, I'd wooed them and I'd got to know them. They were, you know, they're both. So Sugar Rich is a big company. The other one was part of a listed company, although they might be privately owned, like they might have come out of listed, but the department within that that was buying me are really good people. They weren't corporate, they weren't PE, it wasn't deaf by spreadsheet, it was really personal to them as well and it was interesting. Phil took me to one side and said the money's in the bank, virtually. It's very difficult for them to turn around now and he says we're talking, you know it's happening Monday and this was Wednesday and I went, yeah, but, and I was in that long, that very so.

Speaker 2:

The offer came in and I couldn't, we couldn't talk about it. So I rang my future boss. On the Thursday I said I've had another offer from the other party and it's significantly higher than yours and I'd like 24 hours release to poke it, because you have that suspicion. Is somebody being mischievous? No, yeah, I said I just need 24 hours to be able to talk to them. And, um, they said no, we've done as far as we're quite right. As far as we're concerned, we've done the deal. You're covered by um.

Speaker 2:

The clauses says you can't speak to anybody else. We've got exclusivity and it was a unsolicited, so I didn't know it was coming. Um, it was there in writing, it was shared with me, but we couldn't go back and say prove it. Yeah, we just couldn't. And because you know these things, things like exclusivity are really, really serious. And Phil said OK, matt, your call is risking your current because we have another three weeks, I think, of exclusivity. You can either say you're not signing on Monday and you're going to wait for the three weeks, either say you're not signing on monday and you're going to wait for the three weeks, or you can just say to me dismiss this offer off and we complete on the monday. I was like right, you might need to be. I was like fuck's sake. Um, and yeah, that night I didn't sleep and on Friday afternoon I personally rang my future boss and said I'm going to let the exclusivity wither unless you will give me 24 hours to just ask the question is this real? Because you gotta remember they could also.

Speaker 1:

This was just an offer it wasn't, you know, isn't it yeah?

Speaker 2:

and I'm not a gambler at all, uh, in life, you know, like on horses and, um, I completely get it. Uh, because he's a great bloke. But he just turned around, said no, and this is really wounding, I'm taking you know, it was personal, we built that thing and um, he said no, I'm not going to release you for 24 hours and this is your call. I understand why you've got this question, but I think we've done a deal, because I also said and this comes this is the downside of not having a really um, not aggressive wrong word, but a confident negotiator rather than one that's trying to just get the right deal done. He said are you renegotiating? Do I need to? And I said, no, I'm not asking for more money out of you, I'm asking you to change. That's not my behavior in life, so I'm not asking you to change things or anything like that with the deal we've done, because this might not be legitimate and then that's a bad first step for our relationship. I would tell you whether it's legitimate, you know, I mean, if I said so, no, so I had the week and that Friday afternoon I said, right, I'm going to let it wither. And I let it wither and I had.

Speaker 2:

For three weeks I couldn't tell anybody, I didn't know whether the deal was correct, true, valid. I didn't know anything at all and I was ill for that three weeks. Because it's not me. I'm not gambling, that's. I'm prepared to be risk. They always. You always have that self-belief that you can influence things in business. Entrepreneurs I'm taking those. Everyone thinks we're gamblers. We're not, because we can influence our future.

Speaker 1:

Oh, clear risks.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, we can do it. If it starts to veer off, we can step back, we can readjust. That's what entrepreneurs are right. So we get called that we're high-risk gamblers. We're not. Our vision is low-risk to us because it's in our control. Yep, this was out of my control and yeah, I can't say I wasn't an unpleasant human being, quite snappy for three weeks and we couldn't speak to anybody because, I called my cards with the people we're about to complete with and so there's no engagement with them.

Speaker 2:

You know, um, they knew, uh, I couldn't speak to anybody. So I couldn't go and say, right, let's have a chat next tuesday, because I just couldn't, wasn't allowed, and quite rightfully they would have called me in on those exclusivity, absolutely, and it was within their rights, so we had to play it. Phil was all over me like a rash.

Speaker 1:

Put your telephone line yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, absolutely Nothing, you cannot. If an email comes in, you are to just bounce it to me and no, thankfully the other party.

Speaker 1:

Uh well, sugar rich respected that I couldn't, which was a good sign of a positive oh yeah, they completely.

Speaker 2:

They sent it to my lawyer. It was unsolicited, and they stood back because phil went back and said we're in exclusivity, we can't discuss this with you. They went, okay, it's there, great. And then after that, um, we always wanted it completed by christmas, um, so it gave sugar. It's 10 weeks to complete and you know what it happened on the 7th of january really, um, but on christmas eve, when there was a big team's call and it didn't go through. And it didn't go through. And Chris Houghton, our legal counsellor in Sugar Ridge I've told him this story was not my wife's most favourite person- that was a tough Christmas day, that one yeah.

Speaker 2:

I was quite hammered on Christmas day, but it's because and Alex, I'll always refer to him he's the most astonishing businessman, as is the team Paul Bright, bill Hamilton, chris Houghton I can't speak more highly. Andy Newton, the chairman, is just the most simple, effective guy. They just want to do it right and they said don't let emotion get in the way of. And, alex, we had to have a sidebar in the middle of it and I hadn't realized. I was sat in my sister-in-law's little office and I was on Teams and I hadn't realized that there was a radiator on full blast behind me, because I was so invested in this beat and I was going pink and more pink and at one point Kaf sent me a message saying Matt, are you OK? I was ballooning.

Speaker 2:

Alex went to the sidebar and Alex said Matt, just calm down. You need to do this properly. There's things that aren't right, but trust us. And do you know what? Very rarely, you know. I think you can look at somebody, but with a company Andy Newton has built a culture of we always do the right thing. There might be.

Speaker 2:

Go back to our original thing about making decisions as leaders, but, andy Newton's, is this the right thing for the majority and they were treating me as part of them, even though I didn't know it. I mean, you know, you can imagine the cursing and stuff. It hasn't happened. I've got champagne on ice for breakfast, you know, the tantrum child came out in me. But on reflection, and Alex just took me in the sidebar and the team said look, just relax, just relax, we're, you know, and that DNA is throughout Sugar Ridge.

Speaker 2:

Is that? Yes, they're still a business. We'll make tough business decisions, but their first and foremost is always is this the right thing to do? And that's what came through and we completed. We met a complete on the Wednesday and Maven Capital bless their cotton socks. We had an interest payment to them and it had triggered 24 hours of interest of about 120 quid, and so they wouldn't sign until that 120 quid was paid. Now, as it happens, michael said if I'd rang him he would have just instructed. But the office you can get once again, computer says no yeah, yeah so we had to transfer 120.

Speaker 2:

I said to michael, I said I would have given I would have come to the cash. Yeah, you take 20sed, yeah, you take 20s, 10s or 20s. And so that delayed it by a day. And so I was. It was our first day of opening and that's when we wanted to do it on the Wednesday and we couldn't, and the Sugar Rich team was sat up at the airport and then that 120 quid had to clear and then it went through at half three on thursday amazing.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and that was it so and I had to tell people who carol has worked with me for 20 years, right, uh, I had to tell people that for the last year, I'd been a bit of a tit. Because this is going on, and welcome to your new beloved leaders. Amazing, amazing, yeah, so that's the story.

Speaker 1:

You know what? Look, I'll wrap it up and summarize, but I just thank you so much for this because it's it's felt like a real privilege. Actually, it's one of those episodes where I've kind of felt like I'm I'm one listening and not chairing which I think you know I've got to question here, but it was such a, it was such an inspiring episode actually. I always reflect on my takeaways and actually probably my biggest takeaway from this is probably something you you might not think it is. It's probably, as I've listened to you.

Speaker 1:

What I've taken from it is the importance of leaders making decisions and making decisions which they think is right and they've just got it.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, as leaders, we've got to make those decisions and through 18 and a bit years of you leading this business, you've made a decisions which has led you where you are today, through some great times and some tough times, but ultimately you've done that and that the story about selling the business is they picked me that because it's you who've done that, with a great team, but you've put that team together of people you've trusted to be the right people to work with you to do that, and I think that's such an important message for any leader that it doesn't have to be.

Speaker 1:

It's a lonely place being a leader, because it's always got to be you making that decision and you've made every decision you've ever made with the help of other people, but ultimately it's us who's got to have those sleepless nights and say yes or no. But you've done that, and you've done that to a point where the company needs to take it into that new direction and I think that is so inspiring for people listening, whether that's people who own a business or whether that's people who lead a team. You've got to make those decisions which sometimes are the toughest team. You've got to make those decisions which sometimes are the the toughest decisions you've got to make to to benefit you but also benefit people in the business or benefit people in team. And I think, look, it's been a real privilege for me to to listen to that story sorry, I might have talked.

Speaker 1:

I told you I like to talk. No, it's been a privilege and you know what it's, you know, I think it's even like what you sell is inspired to me because sounds daft. But the? Um. One of my memories of being a kid is um, it wasn't choc nibs, but the phrase choc nibs is a big thing in my house. When my dad would shout at me get the choc nibs, girl, get the choc.

Speaker 1:

And it was a thing, because I think there's, and that that brand, that culture itself that generates that, that emotion from people, that it's. It's a brand, it's a product which sometimes you just you don't care how many calories in it, you just want to feel good for a little bit whilst you're watching some crap tv, and I think you know that the, the company, epitomizes everything that you know is good in in in life in that sense. So I think I'm a real privilege to, to be part of it and and to allow you, allow me to interview them. So thank you very much for that and I just can't wait to see what the business, as you do too, to see what is next for the business, and I'll be, I'll be following, for if anyone wants to to contact you, follow you to to look at the company. What's the best way? Just linkedin website or linkedin?

Speaker 2:

probably best. I'm terrible at replying to messages in LinkedIn LinkedIn but yeah, as I go into this, I need to speak to more people, more peers. I think it's because we didn't touch it, but that lonely bit, you know it's. I think I've got something to give back, whether people like what they hear or not, but, yeah, if they want to get in touch. But look, keep an eye on ChocNibbles. It's going to grow up. You're going to see the teenager in ChocNibbles. Yeah, and keep an eye on Sweet Dreams because I think, being part of this sugar rich and the innovation they're bringing out, I think we're going to be a quite exciting food company to keep an eye on. Yeah amazing.

Speaker 1:

Well well done, Matt, Thank you. Thank you for this Thanks.

Speaker 2:

Like I say, it's my first time, so yeah, consciously I might talk too much, but thanks for giving me the opportunity to tell my story. Really appreciate it.

Speaker 1:

Thanks, mate. Thank you so much for listening or watching this episode of the Manufacturing Leaders Podcast. Please just like or subscribe. It really helps grow the show and obviously improve the industry. If you want any more information about Theo James, as I mentioned midway through the episode, please get in touch with me or the team. I would love to talk about how it can help you directly or your business.

Speaker 1:

We are more than just a recruiter, and I know people say that, but it's something I'm incredibly passionate about. We are in business for much more than just a recruiter, and I know people say that, but it's something I'm incredibly passionate about. We are in business for much more than just a bums on seats approach. We want to help people grow, we want to help improve their lives and, ultimately, I want to work with businesses and people who share the same values as we do, and that's something I'm incredibly passionate about. So please, if that is you and you are passionate about that dream role or passionate about your people, please get in touch with me or the team. I would absolutely love to talk a bit more detail. Thank you very much. Speak soon.