Manufacturing Leaders

How To Win UK Defence Manufacturing Contracts

• Mark Bracknall • Season 11 • Episode 5

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In this episode, we’re joined by Kelly Maddison, UK Membership Director at Make UK Defence, to dive into the opportunities opening up for SMEs in the defence sector.

We cover everything from MOD spend targets to how SMEs can become "fit for defence" and start winning real work in the industry.

🔑 Key Topics Covered:

The push for 25% of MOD spend to go directly to SMEs

Upcoming hard targets for primes to work with smaller suppliers

How Make UK Defence is supporting SMEs with guidance, readiness, and access to opportunities

What SMEs need to know to break into the defence supply chain

If you're in UK manufacturing, defence, or just want to understand how to secure government contracts—this one's for you.

📅 Don’t forget to like, comment, and subscribe to catch all future episodes.
📣 New episodes every Thursday!

#UKDefence #SMEs #MakeUKDefence #KellyMaddison #DefenceContracts #UKManufacturing #TheoJamesRecruitment #DefenceIndustry #HowYouWin #MODContracts #SMEsInDefence


Please subscribe to the channel for more content! Theo James are a Manufacturing & Engineering Recruiter based in the North East, helping Manufacturing and Engineering firms grow across the UK. Please call us on 0191 5111 298

Speaker 1:

How do you win UK defence manufacturing contracts? Well, today we're going to find out. My name is Mark Bracknell, I'm the managing director of Theo James Recruitment and today we welcomed on Kelly Madison, the UK membership director of Make UK Defence. This was a fascinating episode where we debunked some myths. Kelly spoke in detail about exactly how manufacturing companies, and actually specifically SMEs, get a piece of the defence pie In a situation we're in right now where manufacturing companies are going through challenging times because of difficult budget constraints, natural insurance contributions, skill shortages and all their issues.

Speaker 1:

Defence is on the up. Labor have already announced further funding for defense and manufacturers, quite rightly, are looking to see if their products can work within defense industry and can they pivot into it. So it was important today for me to get Kelly onto the podcast to communicate exactly exactly how you do that, and she goes through the specific process you need to do to make sure you become a defense manufacturer. So you're going to come away with this with tangible tips and advice and hopefully feel much better about your opportunities within the sector. This was an episode where you're going to learn a lot about the defense industry, about my UK and how you become a sustainable, solid business within defence. So please sit back and enjoy the episode, as I always say. It would be massively appreciated if you wouldn't mind clicking like subscribe and sharing the channel as well. Thank you very much. I hope you enjoy the episode. Excellent. A massive warm welcome today to Kelly Madison, who's the UK membership director. Director at Make UK Defence. How are you doing, Kelly Morning?

Speaker 2:

Morning Mark. Yeah, I'm very well. Thank you, Great to be here.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I'm really looking forward to having you on. It's going to be I know it'll be a fascinating episode. This because I know the good work that Make UK and obviously Make UK Defence do. Defence, specifically, is an industry that I hear about all the time now in terms of a lot of my clients. A lot of manufacturers are either into or trying to get into it, and I think this will be a nice awareness piece and some good tips and takeaways for people. So no pressure, but Hopefully.

Speaker 2:

I can help.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely so. Would you mind just giving. I guess this is a brief sort of background, if you like, on Make UK, make UK Defence, and I guess what role you play and what role they play within manufacturing and the North East.

Speaker 2:

That's okay. We are part of Make UK, the manufacturers organisation, and they represent over 22,000 manufacturers into government, so they're a really big voice speaking on behalf of the whole of manufacturers in the UK across all sectors, so they're a big influencer. With regards to policy, we specifically work in the defence sector. We specifically work in the defence sector, so my role is specifically for Make UK Defence and we exist to improve the UK's defence sector.

Speaker 1:

So it's quite simple. Our mission is to work with SMEs, mid tiers and primes in order to improve the defence sector. Excellent, I imagine. The nature is beast being defence. It can change this afternoon when you switch on the news?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, absolutely, and I think you've hit the nail on the head there. There's so much change in defence, so every time you switch the news on, whether you're listening to news on the morning or night time, there's something happening across the world Ukraine, us.

Speaker 1:

So, yeah, it's a challenge keeping up with everything, but it certainly keeps us on our toes and not one day is the same, which is good yeah, no, I bet um manufacturing is so widespread and and I've personally seen a movement um, probably for the last 12 months, in particular when let's say maybe, maybe traditional industries that have been quite solid for a long time have probably struggled a little bit Automotive, obviously, with the EV piece, obviously, construction has had a difficult time. Many others, and I've seen a lot of manufacturers who traditionally have supplied into one industry, have gone right. Our product can be a little bit more diverse than this. Let's look at other industries we can supply into. Defence, I would say, has probably been perhaps the top of the list for that. How, I guess, of last 12 months, how much change have you seen? And is that, does that ring true with you, would you say? Say, Absolutely.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, there's been huge change in the defence sector and I think, in particular since the Labour Party took over in government, they've been really progressive with pushing forward with the defence sector and with the announcements earlier in the year in particular about the defence spend increasing and more money being spent directly with SMEs. That has definitely filtered through. So, as a team, we're seeing lots more companies approach us because they're looking to diversify into the defence sector, and that's exactly what we're here for to support them on that journey and to help them understand what they need to do in order to win work in the sector.

Speaker 1:

Excellent and I think it'll be interesting to go through a few of those, if that's okay, because I hear that a lot and I guess there might be a misconception and maybe this is some myths we can debunk or not, but I hear a lot of my clients go we want to get into defence, but it's a bit like chicken and egg. You've got to have certain things in the factory compliance, security, that type of thing to win the work, but you can't afford to do that before. So what advice do you give to your, I guess, clients when they first come to you and say exactly that?

Speaker 2:

Yes, so I get that it can be a complicated sector to understand and there's various organisations who can speak to companies who are looking to get into defence.

Speaker 2:

What I would advise them is that we work with a number of the big players in the defence sector and we often run meet the buyer events. One of the questions we'll ask them is what are the accreditations that suppliers need in order to supply into you? And the two main things that come out well all the time are ISO 9001 and cyber essentials. So if you focus on those two things initially, you might not have to have them necessarily in order to win work, but as long as you're on that road and you're working to achieve those accreditations, that's a big step forward. It's not as scary as people think. You know you don't need to have, you know, 10 or 20 different accreditations, but those are the two that come up all of the time and that's what's important in order to win work in the sector right, okay, so if and if you have those two, you're in the room essentially to start talking.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, you're in the room essentially to start talking.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, definitely, You're in the room with the bulk of the companies to start talking. And yes, there are many other accreditations and standards that you can get and that other companies might ask for. But as long as you've got those two, that's a big step forward. You're over the first hurdle.

Speaker 1:

Let's say how much out of those two are others? Is it more the cyber essentials piece that, um, perhaps people are lagging behind? What do you say? Or is um, yeah, what are your thoughts on that?

Speaker 2:

yeah, yeah, so we do um, when members join us initially or if we're having chats at events, etc. The one thing in particular with non-traditional defense suppliers is cyber essentials. So that's the standard that a lot of companies don't have or they haven't heard of, and there are various levels to cyber essentials. You can do an online audit, which is the you know just. You can do that yourself. Tick some questions yes, they do this or that. It's a bit like a self-assessment for an MOT. So it's a very basic assessment, doesn't cost that much, but it does get you over that initial hurdle. But then there are advanced versions of that. So cyber essentials where you have an independent auditor can come out and verify those answers that you've given.

Speaker 2:

So I think that's cyber essentials plus and that's really a step forward, that you're taking your cyber seriously. And what I would advise is that Cyber Essentials is not just about protecting your IT, which lots of people think about. It's just your IT and your systems. It's more about protecting your business. You know it's having systems in place, no matter what sector you work in, to keep that business secure. I mean mean we've seen in the news recently with marks and spencers, the nhs. It affects everyone, so it is something that I would advise all companies to think about.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's interesting actually, because I was actually just listening this morning to a podcast about ai and I'm fascinated, scared and all all this sort of stuff. But um, they, they were talking about that cyber piece. The cyber security piece is just going to get bigger and bigger and bigger, because that cyber threat is only going to loom much. It's going to be much more dangerous than it is today because obviously there's going to be much more intelligence there. So that rings true, I guess. So that, like you say, it's not just about doing that to improve your chance of getting to the fence, it's just proving your chances of not having a stable business, isn't it as well?

Speaker 2:

keeping your business stable. Yeah, exactly, it's reducing risk so that you're in a position to stay successful, to be working in the in the sector, whichever sector you're working in yeah, interesting that.

Speaker 1:

And the iso standards that, let's say, you will. You have a lot of manufacturers who will have that iso standard and they might fabricate metals for automotive, for aerospace. They could be in the food industry, you know, they could be working across a number of industries, and defense is something that they still haven't got an idea about. What are the next steps? Let's say they have, have their cybersecurity and they have the applicable ISO standards. Is it then just meeting the right people and getting the right people to come into the factory and look around, or what's the chances there?

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

So something that we offer is we have our Fit for Defence programme and that's where we bring together a range of experts to help companies drill down into certain areas which they need in order to be successful in the sector, and we kick-start that process by doing an online questionnaire that then produces a report which members or companies can look at to say I'm really good in that area, for example, a marketing strategy I'm not so good at, or the accreditations area of the government's area I need to have a look at and do a bit more in that.

Speaker 2:

So doing that initial drill down in that diagnostic so you can identify some gaps, do a gap analysis and then we'll work with those companies to help them improve in certain areas. I think what's really important in the sector is getting out and meeting different people, and this comes from members themselves who will give us this feedback Great to have your ISO and your cyber essentials, but then get out to different events, and there are loads of networking events either through us or through different organisations across the whole of the UK where you can meet other SMEs, mid-tiers, defence primes, and the more you talk to people and the more sites that you visit, you also go and visit some other factories. Have a look around. That'll give you an idea of what you need to do to improve in order to win work and be successful in the sector yeah, that's really good advice, isn't it?

Speaker 1:

because you know we talk about ai, but nothing beats that face-to-face interaction and just that relationship building, is it?

Speaker 2:

absolutely, and I think again, going to the networking events, you know the bulk of networking events across most trade associations are going to be free, so the the only cost you have is your time, and who doesn't love a bit of a nosy around someone else's factory? And you can see members when they go and do that and they're having a look around. What machines have this um company got? What do I need to do differently? Walking around and looking at what they're doing with regards to quality improvement?

Speaker 2:

yeah, that's, that's where you glean a lot of that information yeah and I think what's really important as well is just the, the conversations that you have in the networking time. So over a cuppa, over a sandwich, having a chat with peers and like-minded people. Quite often you find out about companies who are a capacity and they're needing to outsource some work to to suppliers, and we get lots of feedback from members saying that's how they've won work over a cup of coffee and a biscuit at a networking event. They've built relationships and then months later they've won some work from someone, which is great to hear.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, you know that's such great advice because you know I've added networking, I guess, to my sort of job role over the last couple of years and I think before that I had a view on it quite a negative view on networking, which I think before that I had a view on it, quite a negative view on networking, which I think some people still have that you're just in a room with people who are completely irrelevant and you know there's completely different occupations to you or just people trying to sell to you, and I guess I had that misconception before. I did that. But now I can reverse engineer a lot of the work and relations to do to those meetings over a cup of tea which actually, when you're driving back you often don't feel like you've accomplished anything, but you meet them again and again, and again it can take some time because it's a long relationship. It's not always your short wins are the best wins, are they?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, absolutely, and I think it is about building those relationships over time. Exactly what you've said, mark. You know you'll see the same people, not always, but you will build relationships at those different events. And I always find it interesting when people say to me that they factor in a 50 percent dropout for networking events that are free. And as a company, make UK Defence, we're really proud that our dropout is very rarely below 10 percent and we'll have people traveling all over the uk. So, for example, we've got people traveling from brighton up to events in the northeast, up to events in scotland, because they know that their contacts they'll meet are really valuable. Yeah, so I think that I couldn't recommend networking events more.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, you just say it's one of those slow burners you know, building relationships over months, if not sometimes years, is really positive. You will get rewards, but you've just got to stick at it.

Speaker 1:

Trust isn't it. You're building trust. I completely agree. But you mentioned that you get that statistic because the people trust. People trust your events, people trust that they're going to go to it and there's going to be right people there. The right information is going to be there. It's not just going to be a, a nice meet and greet without any meaning behind it. It's specific. You're walking around, as you see in sites, it's, it's relevant to their marketplace, which is the difference yeah, I think so, and we did one last month at ntg precision in team valley.

Speaker 2:

So a northeast member, um, and we had, you know, some of the speakers there were reliance sorry, responsive engineering, part of the piercing group. We had knds and we're from the northwest and mbda. So you've got three big defense primes who are looking to onboard new suppliers all talking around what they look for in the supply chain and what the opportunities are. So people know that they, how, how difficult would it be to get in a room with those three companies? You know people would be trying months, if not years, with no success. But there we have it for members 80 people could come and listen to those three organizations and, yeah, the fantastic company. So the tour was really interesting on that one, lots of investment in new machinery and in a new site and they had a really good story to tell around how they've been able to win more work. So I think that resonated with the audience and certainly shed some light light on what a few of them needed to do in order to be successful.

Speaker 1:

Excellent. And look, this is why I started the podcast three years ago. The first place, because I don't think there's enough collaboration and sharing best practice. But you mentioned there that that's where there is, and people need to get in the room these people. I don't know how much you can share on this, but I was going to ask you actually in terms of in your opinion, are there any case studies? Or, if you look at the companies and clients you've got over the last couple of years, I guess, what are, in your opinion, the things that they've done to make them a better, more sustainable business within defense, would you say?

Speaker 2:

yeah. So I think a few of them stand out and the common themes are they're investing. They're investing in whether it's their staff, excuse me machinery. It's a really good site, but you can see that they're forward thinking, they're looking to the future and they're trying to match the needs of the potential customers with their strategy so that they do have a plan in place. They're not just sort of looking at what's happening in the next month.

Speaker 2:

Defence is long term. So the successful companies are looking three to five years ahead and thinking about what do we need to have in place now in order to secure some of these long term contracts? So they're talking with some of the key players. They're using us for introductions and a a lot of them it's going back to basics. So what do I need to do around my marketing my website?

Speaker 2:

You know websites your front door to a lot of these businesses and, to be quite honest, when you look at some of the the defence customers websites that they were terrible, you know. So, giving that honest feedback to people, you need to have it looking like a defense website. You've got to talk the language, um, otherwise if customers are looking at that, they're going to sort of say well, this, this company, is nothing to do with defense, so it's some, some tweaks to the marketing, some tweaks to website, um, but also thinking about the strategy. You know, asg and the environment is a big part of what all of these primes are looking for. So I think a lot of the successful companies are looking at sustainability. They're looking at, you know, solar panels on the roofs. What can we do to stand out from the crowd?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, excellent. And what I love about this is none of this is specific to defence. This is just good business and good manufacturing, and I guess sometimes people look for a silver bullet in these situations where they go I need to get into this industry. What low-hanging fruit do I need to pick? But actually they're just things that they need to do to improve your business as a whole, because it might well be you'll pick up some defence contracts, but you might pick up some automotive contracts as well in some areas, because you're becoming a much more sustainable solar business, aren't you? Essentially?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, exactly, and I think the bulk of our members don't just work in defence. Yes, some of the big players will, but the majority of the SMEs that we work with they're working across multiple sectors. So, exactly like you've said, it's oil and gas, rail, automotive, aerospace, but defense is booming at this point. So it's great because that's counteracting some of the sectors that aren't doing so well, and that's another thing we'd encourage customers to do work across multiple sectors, you know, diversify your risks so that if one of them has a dip, you're not struggling, you're not having to make lots of people redundant or you don't go out of business yeah, apologies for interrupting this episode with a very quick announcement about my business.

Speaker 1:

Theo james are a specialist talent provider specifically to the manufacturing and engineering sector. I'm incredibly proud of what we've achieved since our inception in 2015. We specialize in roles from semi-skilled trades right the way up to our TJ exec search arm of the business. Both on the contract and permit side, we offer both bespoke one-off campaigns for hard-to-fill roles or a full partnership service where we become an extension of your business. For any information, please get in touch with me or the team. I hope you enjoy the rest of the episode. Thank you, 100. It's um. You mentioned that sme piece as well because again, it could be a monk, a myth we can bunk here, but I think you will find companies, smaller businesses, go. It's okay for the bigger businesses. They've got all this investment, they've got all this. They've got everything there. What about little old oars were a 75, you know, 50 strong sme. I imagine there is a massive variation in the the clients you've got on site there oh, yeah, absolutely so.

Speaker 2:

Our clients range from, you know, one person consultancies up to the the global beasts like b systems and lockheed martin, but predominantly we are here to represent the smes, you know.

Speaker 2:

That's why we've been here for all of these years and it's really exciting times, in particular for SMEs, with all of the announcements recently that the government will be committing to increased spend with SMEs, in particular from the mod, and we've pushed for a 25% spend direct from MOD to SME in our defence industrial strategy submission. And then also there will be a hard target set for primes which will be announced next month, so they will have to spend a certain amount of money direct with SMEs. That was a published target and again, we'll be really involved in that process and we're here to help the SMEs understand where those opportunities are, ensure that they're fit for defence so that their success can be successful with winning work in the sector. And yeah, it's exciting times. The SMEs have never been as important to the supply chain and you look at some of the programs that we've got coming up. You know there's a Estrella, we've got GCAP, with lots of the aerospace programs coming up. Yeah, lots of exciting times for SMEs.

Speaker 1:

What could that funding mean? I guess in terms of because sometimes governments say there is funding, that there's pot available how, how do SMEs get a piece of that? And what could that mean in terms of where could that investment go for them? In terms of the business, would you say?

Speaker 2:

yeah, and I think that's we're waiting for that information to filter down, which, in the next month or so, we'll see the strategic defense review, the defense industrial strategy and, probably more important, the sme action plan. So once we've got those and we can understand where some of that money is going, where the the MOD will be spending its resources, in particular through the defence equipment support, we'll then be able to provide support to to SMEs and help them channel their energy.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, great. So obviously, manufacturing the last six months has been probably one of the most challenging times. I would say. I've worked here for a long time. I think the, the budget, the national insurance contribution, the minimum wage yeah, companies have now gone. You know we're now dealing with this. How, how the members reacted to all these changes, would you say, and have you seen any of them change tactics or stance on on anything over the last sort of six or nine months? Would you say?

Speaker 2:

I think defence has encountered exactly those problems. Mark, you know, when we've seen the announcement about the national insurance contributions, it affects all of us, including Make UK Defence and Make UK. It's a big hit on bottom line that companies need to recover those costs ultimately. So I think a lot of the members are looking at how can they work smarter, not harder. Are there any ways that they can drive efficiencies? It could be through auto, auto motion, sorry um automating systems, etc. Digitalizing, um ways of working, just so that they can don't just to cut costs, which ultimately generally means getting rid of some people and making people redundant. But, thinking about the future, they need to keep the skills that they've got because if they lose them it's difficult to get them back. So it's, how can they look at reducing costs in other ways so that they don't feel that hate?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, that's good advice. And obviously who knows what happens tomorrow with the trade war, the tariffs, all this type of stuff? I imagine that's been an absolute minefield as well for them to deal with, because the supply chain is such a big piece of the defence, isn't it?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's caused so many problems and lots of our members do export in a high proportion and a number export to the US and we went out recently to them to ask about the impact of that and we are working with those members to understand what could we do to help, what changes could government make in order to lessen the impact of those tariffs. But, like you said earlier, we turn the news on every day and there's there's something different, in particular from from america, which is, um affecting the supply chain. So it's certainly a challenge and what we see is that a lot of our members export, which is great, and particularly their defense products but quite a lot of them don't supply into the uk supply chain, which is you might think that's a little bit back to front, um, but yeah, exporting is hugely important and the more we can do that and make it easier for people, we're here to support that and we work really closely with UK DSE, the defence and security export team, um, to help members with that side of things.

Speaker 1:

Excellent stuff. You mentioned um before that, that marketing piece, and I agree, I agree, I think um there's some businesses doing really now starting to lead on that marketing. I'm seeing that improve but I still think manufacturing is potentially a little bit archaic in in sort of behind times in certain ways. Would you have any advice for that branding and marketing piece, would you say to align with the defence industry, that they can sort of project a little bit?

Speaker 2:

Yes, I mean we've got a couple of our fit for defence partners. We've got two, one called Canicoms and one called Horizon Works, who are based in the North East. They do a health check for members, but also I think they would do one for any company looking to get into the sector and they'll do a 360 degree look at the company. So they'll look at things like your website, your branding, your marketing materials and have a conversation, get you to fill out a bit of a questionnaire. But again, it's having an external person look at things with that outside lens. And we went through it as a team because we wanted to understand what will customers go through and it was really interesting that the whole team filled out the questionnaire and then we sent some information to Horizon Works, who then fed back a really detailed report to us at no cost, which is really good, because lots of people don't feel like they want to make that initial investment in the marketing. So you can get a good report free of charge, but then just having somebody else point out some of the basic stuff, like on your social media posts, always having a call to action, having consistent messages across your website and your marketing collateral and your banner stands, because quite often companies, if they're working across multiple sectors, the website might say one message, but then the marketing literature and banners that they're taking to events it's completely different.

Speaker 2:

So it's you need to ensure that the messaging that you've got on your website talks in a defence language, and having an external person look at that they can point that out quite easily. And having a report with some practical hints and tips on what you need to do to improve gives you that starting point. So you haven't had to do any of that work yourself, but you've got a report telling you what to do in order to move forward in the defence sector. So that's entirely up to you then how you take that forward. But you've got some good points from a successful marketing company and they're you know they're experts in that area. So why would you not do? That is my question to companies 100.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's great advice to take if it's free as well, without doubt. Obviously, my line of work is um, is skills and and um and I guess the I'm always very interested in the in the future, skills, particularly now. Things are starting to change and obviously manufacturing is manufacturing 4.0 or whatever you want to call it, but it is changing massively rapidly. Where do you see that going in terms of? Is there anything that members are talking about that they're readying themselves for the changes that obviously are coming, would you say? And and where do you see the gaps or the challenges there?

Speaker 2:

yeah, I mean defense is probably no different to any other sector in manufacturing. Um, skills is the biggest challenge and whichever company we talk to, whether it's the, the huge defense primes or the small smes that is top of their challenge list. It's skills, it's recruitment, it's retention. You know how do we all fight in the same pond for engineers, for welders now there's a huge welding crisis, in particular, in defense, and part of our submission for the defense industrial strategy our top ask was to solve the, the skills crisis. So, just going back to your question, what members are doing now again, they're thinking about if we know we're all fighting for the same people how can we make the factory more efficient so that we don't need to employ as many people? So that's using it could be using ai. It's automating, autom, automating things. Yeah, um, it's looking at robots. Most of the factories we go to now, a lot of them five years ago hadn't thought of robots, but the majority now that you're going to, they've got some robots in some form or there might be a couple of machines that are using robots. So it's just been a lot more proactive. Thinking about that in a more positive way, because I understand that in the past, people were thinking you know, if robots come in, we're going to be making people redundant, whereas now it's more we need robots because we can't recruit the volume of people that we want to. So it's just looking at things in a different way and, again, streamlininglining processes, making things more efficient.

Speaker 2:

All of that helps with the skills crisis, um, but there's there's still a huge way forward, and I think a lot of what members are saying is stem's a big, big issue. It's getting kids involved at a very young age, because quite often the factories we're going to they're fabricating parts. You know they're not. It's not this exciting, sexy factory that young kids are thinking about, but it's. How do we make them want to work in some of these places? It's just it's not sort of thought about at the moment. And another big one is what lots of members are saying is the right courses aren't available in further education. So lots of engineering courses that they need to move their business forward either aren't there or there's just not enough take up for them. So how do we get younger people more interested in those courses that we've got the skills for the future?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's that wellness piece, isn't it? But I agree with you and I can understand, I guess, the way the generative generations are going and you can see the sort of young people who wouldn't be interested in that, in that classic sort of trade desk role which has been our bread and butter, you know, for so long. However, we've kind of answered the question where we can see the way factories are going. It is going to much more automated systems, more data-led, more computerized, and I would argue, if I put my optimistic head on, that that's a positive in the sense that that might start to attract younger people, because they are the skills of today, that they are growing up with ipads and data. Yeah, all the stuff we didn't, essentially so that could hopefully start change matters, if, if, we're in trouble.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and you're right, because when you visit some of the factories, um, and you can see that they've invested in the newer machinery, the ones that are more digital, etc. When you ask you know which? Which machines do the apprentices want to work on? It's not the machines from you know 50, 80 years ago. It's the ones that they've just bought, the digital ones, the ones where they can relate to, where it has got that touchscreen at the front and they can make some input. So, yeah, fingers crossed, I'd love to see some more funding with regards to that digitalisation side and I think that would help a lot of the members move forward.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, but everyone's got to do their bit, haven't they? You know? I think you know this might sound harsh, but a lot of companies out there will unassumably complain because there's not enough people out there. But are they doing their bit? And I appreciate time, you know, is a commodity, but are they sending people to local schools and colleges? And we need to collectively help. Don we to do that?

Speaker 2:

yeah, definitely you do need to be proactive. Like you say, there's open days at schools, there's colleges. Engage with your local primary schools, you know, get in early, try if you can have an open day at your factory, get some of the kids there, but make it engaging. Don't just sit them in a in a classroom. You know, if you can get them around the factory, try and get them to engage in some activities. Um make uk, the parent organization, we they run a national manufacturing day in september each year and that's where we try to encourage as many manufacturers as possible to open the doors to the, the local schools, etc. So if people want to get involved in that, we'll be promoting more information over the next coming months. But that's always a really exciting day and it's great to see hundreds of members involved in that and just to understand what they're doing all at the same time. So it's a really big, big movement and, yeah, it's quite an exciting time when you see the range of companies involved in that day nice, excellent, uh, two final questions.

Speaker 1:

Okay, that's okay. Um, firstly, I would say, if, if a manufacturing leader is listening to this, thinking it's probably this is the kick I needed to to potentially look at a fence, but they still still need to maybe be pushed over, what advice would you give them? To start aside from what we already said, and if they're unsure whether it's right for their business, what advice would you give them?

Speaker 2:

would you say, Come and talk to us. I'm happy if you want to give out my details. Follow Make UK Defence. There's other trade associations out there, but reach out to the trade bodies. Follow us on LinkedIn. Connect with me. One of our team will be happy to have a chat with you, and it's a really exciting time in the defence sector at the moment because of all these big programmes and the targets that will be coming. The MOD and Primes can only hit those targets for spend with SMEs if we bring more non-traditional companies into the defence supply chain. So there will be contracts out there to win and you know you've got to be in it to win it. You know it's like the lottery Someone's got to win those contracts. So why not start now? Get the ball rolling, identify some gaps, do a bit of a gap analysis, see what you need to do, but start those conversations with me and other people who are already in the sector and that will move you along.

Speaker 1:

Excellent advice. And just finally, an impossible question. I'm going to have to get your mystic bed crystal ball out here. But where do you see in the next two years, two to five years? Where do you see this industry going? What are your big predictions and what hold you to them?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so me, I think it's going to be on the up. Still, it's going to be really buoyant. We're going to see a huge increase in the number of SMEs who are involved in the sector and we'll be there to help support with that, and I do see that it's going to be exciting and I still think we'll be riding the wave up in two years' time.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, 100% I agree, because actually, the more and more people I talk about who win these contracts they're long-term contracts and everything we've talked about there in terms of stability piece, right back to staff levels, that retention piece if staff know that there's some stability there in their order books for x amount of years, they're more likely to stay. The progression opportunities are going to be there. It ticks every box, isn't it? So I agree, and and there's a reason why more and more people are trying to get into it interestingly, the one of the um we've had the biggest increase ever in sales roles. So so, companies looking for business development managers because they want to try and get into these, because everything we've mentioned, a lot of that could be networking. It's going out there and meeting people. It's getting on the phone, speaking to suppliers. So there's definitely a movement towards that, which is great to see, because I love this industry, but I see the flaws in it and we can't hide behind this wonderful history in the UK. We need to get out there and change and be more efficient, and I see defence as a key industry to be able to do that, because we're great at what we do. So I just want to thank you for this, kelly.

Speaker 1:

It's been fascinating. I've learnt loads. I know people will as well. I think one of my takeaways, which I was really hoping I would take away and have, is that it isn't all about that. Big corporate firms that have been defence contracts for the last 50 years SMEs now, who are perhaps going through difficult times but are good manufacturers with the right people and process behind them, they can get involved and they can win these contracts. And I think that's what's important, because we need to be on the front front to do that, and you've outlined that and you've communicated that extremely well with real, solid advice. So, um so thank you, kate. It's been, it's been great.

Speaker 2:

We really appreciate it yeah, I've really enjoyed it. Thanks, mark. And just to echo what we both said, defense is definitely at a crossroads and it's a time where we need more SMEs to come in, bring their innovation. They're agile, you know, they can reduce cost, and that's exactly what the MOD needs now to move forward. So, yeah, the time is right 100%.

Speaker 1:

Thank you, kay. We appreciate it. Thank you, mark. Thank you so much for listening or watching this episode of the Manufacturing Leaders Podcast. Please just like or subscribe. It really helps grow the show and obviously improve the industry. If you want any more information about Theo James, as I mentioned midway through the episode, please get in touch with me or the team. I would love to talk about how it can help you directly or your business. We are more than just a recruiter and I know people say that, but it's something I'm incredibly passionate about. We are in business for much more than just a bums on seats approach. We want to help people grow, we want to help improve their lives and, ultimately, I want to work with businesses and people who share the same values as we do, and that's something I'm incredibly passionate about. So please, if that is you and you are passionate about that dream role or passionate about your people, please get in touch with me or the team. I would absolutely love to talk a bit more detail. Thank you very much. Speak soon.