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Manufacturing Leaders
Currently the Number 1 Manufacturing Podcast on Spotify and Apple Podcasts!
Mark Bracknall, Founder of Theo James Recruitment is the host of Manufacturing Leaders.The UK is still a powerhouse in Manufacturing & Engineering. We speak to those who are helping to make those firms a success. By motivating, inspiring and managing teams.Are you new to management? Are you keen to hear from those who are dealing with the same day-to-day challenges you are facing?In this podcast we get inside the minds of the Managers in Manufacturing & Engineering, and understand how they get the best our of their teams and make Manufacturing & Engineering great.
Manufacturing Leaders
The Impact of Early Industry Exposure on Future Talent
Declan Middleton, Engineering Manager at Perry Process Equipment, shares his journey from reluctant work experience student to respected leader and details how one summer placement changed his career trajectory forever.
In this episode:
- 🎮 Declan wanted to be a journalist, until his dad made him try engineering work experience instead.
- 👷♂️ From apprentice to Engineering Manager, now leading and mentoring his own team.
- 🚀 Encouraging young engineers to take risks, fail fast, and grow through real-world learning.
Please subscribe to the channel for more content! Theo James are a Manufacturing & Engineering Recruiter based in the North East, helping Manufacturing and Engineering firms grow across the UK. Please call us on 0191 5111 298
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Manufacturing Leaders Podcast with me Mark Bracknell, marketing Director of Theo James Recruitment. Today we're welcoming on Declan Middleton, the Engineering Manager from Perry Process Equipment in Newton Aycliffe. I absolutely love this episode and it was such a privilege to speak to such a young leader with such a mature head on his shoulders. Declan told his story about how he got into the industry and how he got into it after being pushed by his parents to go and do a placement at a young age, having initially not necessarily wanted to get into engineering, and he talks in detail about being treated like a man, being treated like an adult in an adult world, being such a young person and that experience changing his mindset and just putting him on the path to ultimately want to get into the industry, and he talked in detail about the importance of that. And there's so many lessons to take from not only a business lesson that we need to be making sure we are speaking and giving the opportunities to young people to see the environment, but also for parents to understand their role they can play in their children's future. We talk about periprocess in detail, we talk about leadership, we talk about culture and so many things in between.
Speaker 1:I really enjoy this episode and it is an episode that I would show to young people wanting to get into the industry and young aspiring managers as well. So thank you, declan, for this because, as I mentioned a couple of times in this episode, the world, and particularly the sector, needs more people like Declan. So thank you very much. Please, please, please, just click that like and subscribe button. It really helps us grow the channel. But if not, um, but if anyway, thank you very much. Hope you enjoy the episode. Excellent right. A massive warm welcome say to Declan Milton, the uh engineer manager from Perry Process Equipments. How?
Speaker 2:you doing things all right, all good. Yeah, yeah, I'm good.
Speaker 1:Thank you very much good man, excellent, look, really looking forward this second. So, um, obviously I'm looking forward to get into your story of what you've done at pay process and understanding more about the business and what they do. Um, before we do that, it's the same question I ask everyone um, what does it mean to you to be a leader?
Speaker 2:yeah, absolutely. I mean not to call it, but for me the leader is to be a leader, it's to lead from the front. So one thing I will say about my technique, if you like, is probably because of the way I've been brought up in this organization, I've started from the bottom work my way up, so there's absolutely zero task. I'll ask any of my team to do that I haven't already done and I wouldn't do. Obviously, branching off from that, there's obviously going to be, um, you know, empowerment and looking after people, making sure people come in with a space that they feel comfortable, working, happy to go home, that sort of thing. Um.
Speaker 2:So yeah, from the way I lead is more from the front, within, regards to um sort of trying to to demonstrate that this is the task in hand and stuff like this. Um, but yeah, like I said, it's it's it's it's such a broad spectrum and everyone has their own own techniques. Um, but, like I said, my, my way of doing it is sort of getting down and dirty, if you like, and sort of being on the on the shop floor as much as I can possibly be, and I'm never one of these managers who sits, sits high and mighty in the office and you know I'm always available, always willing to, to lend a hand and and hopefully, from that which I feel like I do get.
Speaker 2:Get that back. Is, you know, lads, uh and lasses, look, look up to me and help out a bit more, put that little bit more extra effort in, because they can see that the management's also, you know, taking the lead as well. So, like I said, that's sort of a little bit of my intuition of how I interpret it. Shall I say, my interpretation.
Speaker 1:And fair play to you because you've got a very mature head and shoulders for a young age and you're someone who people should aspire to be at a young age, because obviously you've worked your way up very, very quickly. And I'm not saying you know, there's different routes people take. A lot of people will jump from company to company to progress and they probably see that as their only path to progression. Sometimes you haven't. You've stayed at a business and it's been quite organic and they've progressed you, which is, you know, testament to them as a business to do that, but testament to you as well to to stay there, because actually it can be quite challenging for a lot of people to suddenly change your role in the organization and you know you perhaps were once one of the lads getting managed and suddenly you know you're not. Suddenly you are, um, not just part of the team, you are someone, someone who's lead that same team. What was that transition like? Because that's really hard.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, basically it's a two-way street, absolutely what you said. Organically there was a gap about six years ago where the current manager, the foreman, retired and I was part of the team, the core team, and I started trying to take notes off the old manager and help out where I could, and not necessarily to see it as a, you know, progression route, but more just really wanted to get involved in in all aspects of it. And I was the sort of person put my hand up to do different courses, that sort of stuff. And the company actually did look externally um to hire, um, but they couldn't find the right candidate for sort of how niche our company is. So they ended up offering it to myself on a six-month probation period and, like you just said there that the biggest issue I had was not actually the job role, it was transitioning from being one of the team to having a little bit more responsibility. And I remember the the first couple of weeks I was petrified, absolutely petrified, because I like, from a disciplinary point of view, how were these guys going to listen and understand? And I guess, kind of going back to my first point about being a leader, the way I approach things like that is more. Yes, I'm your friend and I'll obviously open door policy and all these sort of cliches. But because I've been there on the shop floor with them, I understand their grievances and I understand, you know, when they might not be happy with something, why they're not happy with something, and sort of.
Speaker 2:From there, I think it sort of took off, um, and then eventually I was able to demonstrate my competency in that level and sort of from there, organically, as you said, it grew from there, um, so you know, being in the position now about five or six years. There is a bigger gap now between where I was then and now. In regards to management, of course there is, but that's only come because of time and because, you know, I've managed to put my stamp on things but also being able to sort of nurture and grow the workshop the way I see fit. But the team that we actually started with is a big part of the team that's still here, uh, which is great, um, and you know we've all grown up together, you know, because we've got a young team in general, um, and you know I have that nice balance of, you know, monday to friday, the my colleagues, and then on the weekend. You know we're friends as well, and you know we we do a lot of activities outside of work as well, so yeah, it's a nice balance.
Speaker 1:That's great to hear, actually, because I would say that's probably. You know, if you ask people what the hardest part of management is throughout their journey, that what you're talking about there I would say probably is number one. You know that, making that transition internally to suddenly be the boss. So you know, you've you communicate that really well, um, but I imagine it wasn't as easy as that because, like you said and I think some people sometimes worry they've got to completely change their character. They've got to suddenly come in the next morning, be someone who is completely different. Was that? Uh, was it more of a transition for you to, like you, say the gap is now bigger, or was it? Did you almost have a word of yourself and go I need to be this person now. What was that?
Speaker 2:like a little bit, um, probably probably a bit more transition like six, my actual character isn't argumentative, my character isn't. I've always been sort of a leader from, you know, from a young age, you know, when I played school, school football, I was a goalkeeper. So I've learned to communicate very effectively, from to tell people where I want them to stand and sit and stuff like this, and then going through the school and college routes etc. I was always, you know, um, open to discussions and communication and meeting new people and talking to new people. Uh, so, from that essence, it wasn't a difficult transition to to sort of taking the lead.
Speaker 2:From that point of view, it was more just how do I earn these guys respect? Because I'm having to go from? You know, I am a big believer in respect is earned, you know, just because you've got a certain job title or certain position within the company and, yes, you have that organizational respect that you know, you've got the power and the keys. But the respect actually that comes from, from the people below you, has to be earned. It's not given to you, and I found that the best way I could could do that is to, you know, sort of let that here, you know, be there and organically let it grow, that you know when there is a problem they know for a fine fact that you know I'm here to help out, but also that there is that hierarchy that if the task's not getting done to a certain quality or a time that they are going to get you know the leadership put back on and sort of told off.
Speaker 2:And, like I said, from a disciplinary point of view that has been a bit more of a difficult transition. But again, I'm quite lucky that we haven't had the actual disciplinary issues that you hear. A lot of manufacturing companies have. Ours have more been more personal grievances, personal issues. I've had to deal with a lot of things in a short space of time, from things like alcoholism, depression, this sort of stuff, and that's again where that leadership has to come on in a different facet. It's more of a, like you said, they're listening to people and trying to help people, empower people from that end as opposed to actually barking down orders. So I found that part of my job, role, role grow, you know, exponentially, as opposed to more being top of a food chain, you know, giving out work instructions, um. So yeah, it's, it's, it's happened, probably just how I would like to to happen organically, um, but it wasn't. It wasn't easy.
Speaker 1:No, you are right in making that assumption and I think what you've unearthed, though, is something quite interesting, because I I completely agree the. I think when you want to be, when you think what it's like to be a leader, you think about those things, don't you, in terms of you're needing to need and set expectations, maybe go for disciplinaries, help people progress, but you do that. But what I found as well, which is the surprising thing, is exactly what you just there. It's the other things that you don't expect to. When you really sort of get to know someone, is there some.
Speaker 1:You know there's a lot of people in any workforce who've got issues and and, and you know mental health issues and, and you know, in particular, and I've had to deal with those issues on a regular basis, and that's part of the job which gets back to leading, isn't it? And the responsibility, but it's a real tough part of the job, but I think it's a sign of. For me, it's a sign of a good organisation, a good leader those people are. You are dealing with those situations, absolutely yeah, I'm very lucky.
Speaker 2:Well, I feel very fortunate to work in a very small team, so so I know my team intimately. I know the, the personal challenges. I know what they're going through. I know you know we've got stuff. You know even things like young families. You know guys who've got babies at home and you know we've got to give.
Speaker 2:I'm a big believer in it's a two-way street of leeway. Do you know what I mean? Um, I understand that. You know myself having a young child at home, that you know these things dominate your life and you know you've got to give people the sort of leeway to.
Speaker 2:You know, if, if something's happened at home on the morning and they need to put you know a last minute holiday in, or they're going to be running five minutes late as a leader, uh, I don't ever see the stick being the option in that essence. For that, for that reason, because all you're going to do is just eventually drive people out, um, you know, because there'll be a time when I need them to stay back, there'll be a time where I need them to work on a saturday, and it's sort of two-way street in that essence and, um, like I said there, I'm lucky, I feel lucky to to be part of these guys lives in that essence and you know I feel like when I go home on a weekend I am making a difference to these guys. You know I'm helping these guys. So, yeah, it's a really rewarding part of the process, you know, not just being the manager, just sort of being there to help them through life's challenges. You know what.
Speaker 1:I mean, you need to have a child to know what it's like to be that tired, don't you? Yeah, to know what it's like to be that tired, don't you think?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Like I said, we have guys, we've got young kids and my son's six months old and I will admit you know, from January this year I've realised what tiredness really is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is, but then you get it's a minor bit more grown up now, sort of six and nine, and you have to remember God, that was real and you can't do your job as well as you can do when you're not tired. It's as simple as that, isn't it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, for me it's balance and everything. So I have on my left shoulder possibly I have my company's targets and stuff like that that we've got to achieve. We've got our tasks and work instructions that we've got to keep and I've we've got our tasks and work instructions that we've got to keep and I've got on the right hand shoulder, I've got the personal side of things. You know, we've got like well, there's a reason why this guy couldn't come in on the friday morning because you know he had an issue. It's sort of just that balancing act of trying to make sure that everything that the organization needs is done and everything that the guys need to take home on on a friday is also carried out. So it's sort of, like I said, just a balancing act.
Speaker 1:I think what's interesting is this time last year we had a lot of conversations about EVPs, so employee value proposition and a lot of HR in particular were going what should we offer and what benefits should we have? And obviously the work from home and that flexibility piece that was a constant conversation, and I think what a lot of companies have settled on it was kind of what you've communicated there really well is that you know most businesses in manufacturing can't do the work from home thing fully. You know, because obviously, the whole point in the factory is everything is in the factory. So if you are an engineer, you know by title you can't do what you need to do by at home.
Speaker 1:But I think what good companies have done, though, is exactly what you need to do in home. But I think what good companies have done, though, is exactly what you've spoken about there is that they've understood that people have lives and sometimes things happen and sometimes there's a degree of flexibility that's needed to keep people engaged, which is obviously what you've done. I still want to see it in every company. So I don't think people should give that as a given, and it happens everywhere, but it doesn't.
Speaker 2:It doesn't. But no, no, it doesn't absolutely. I think there is a, there's an agility that we have because we're a small company. There is that absolutely. Of course I understand there's these huge manufacturing organizations of the northeast. That that flexibility is is almost improbable because of the size of the beast, but it would be great to see bigger organizations.
Speaker 2:I mean my wife. She works for one of the major employers in the northeast and that flexibility is more down to a manager's discretion, it's not a company-wide thing. You know, if my wife was ill, a part of her sort of handbook, you know there's a three-strike policy and you know and it's like, where's that flexibility? Now, luckily her line manager is, you know, is a really flexible, flexible person, so she does have a degree of flexibility. But it'd be great to see, and absolutely, when it comes to it, it's not just about the salary anymore, it's not just about the pension and stuff like this, it's what the actual work and week is going to look like.
Speaker 2:My biggest thing for my guys is I hate the idea of my guys taking the stress home with them. I don't feel like they're paid to do that. They're paid to come in and do their task and I want them to go home and enjoy their weekends with their family. I'm very big on that mantra that leave your issues at the door when you get in that car park. That's your switch on, switch off. I know obviously yourself, being a business owner, you probably have lots of foreign concept to yourself but I agree, I completely agree with what you're saying.
Speaker 1:I I see it as my responsibility to make sure that exactly that, that my staff don't take that same level of responsibility. Because you know if you own a business, you accept the certain pros and cons of that and the con is probably you take that stress. But I don't think you should. You should sign that oath, you know, if you join your company, you know it's one of those. So I agree with what you're saying there completely. Um, I think the the sector I know the sector needs more people like you in it. It needs more people who want to get into engineering, manufacturing and leadership. But there is obviously a big gap. Did you fall into or want to get into this world of manufacturing? How'd that come about?
Speaker 2:yeah, absolutely no, it's the answer. Um, my family tree probably points to the fact that I should have. Yeah, all my family, all uh generations, have all been in industry, whether that be coal, mining, steelworks, that sort of stuff. I mean, my granddaddy was a maintenance fitter for a food manufacturer well, a tea manufacturer in Teesside and he was a maintenance engineer. You know so sort of you know that's how I should have gone.
Speaker 2:But I was really interested in sports and in journalism when I was in school. My original plan when I was 16 was to leave school, go to a good college and, you know, study a bit more English, go to university, maybe work for a magazine or a newspaper, you know, writing sports articles. That sort of thing filled me with excitement. And I remember I finished my school, where you get that extended summer holiday when you're 16. And I think it was a Friday or something. I finished school, got off the bus, my dad was there waiting and he went you're not sitting at home on your Xbox for the 10 weeks, or whatever it was. He said you're coming with me and he chucked me into a welding shop. So my dad was a site manager for a local construction company at the time and there was a local fabrication shop in Newton-Aitliff that did a lot of the steel work for them and he basically gave me to the foreman and said he's gonna be yours for eight weeks and they signed me up as a sort of a summer apprentice and, uh, they looked after me. But no, but in them eight weeks I grew up probably more than I ever did in the first 16 years of my life. I learned how to make cups of tea, I learned how to remember sandwich orders to go to the shop.
Speaker 2:I swept up you're behind the guillotine and there was an element that, when I look back on it, a lot of 16-year-olds might have despised, that Might have actually thought I want to be out kicking a football with my pals, and I remember there was a feeling of that. A lot of my friends were out and about and I wasn't. I was sat in the summer heights, you know, getting down and dirty, but the biggest feeling I remember getting was feeling the respect that I felt like a man, like I felt they treat me like an adult and that was the best thing that this company could have done for me. They didn't treat me like a 16-year-old little boy. They didn't treat me like a child, they treat me like an adult. And a couple of weeks later I could to the college for an induction week and it was back to school. That's exactly the way I describe it and I felt this is not for me anymore, because it just felt like being a child again. You were a 16 year old boy, so, um, that that sort of week I went to the local college, southwest Durham, training, and, uh, signed on for an engineering apprenticeship.
Speaker 2:Uh, but the time I had no employer and I was, you know, really, really dumb to think this that you know, last minute I could go and get an apprenticeship with one of the major manufacturing companies in the town, all them vacancies had filled up. So I wrote to local small businesses and, funny enough, my dad actually heard of Perry process because he repaired the roof I think it was, was or something you know a couple of years earlier and he found the company interesting. And that's when I wrote to them and the management director, darren, who's still at the organisation, offered me an interview, interviewed and got the job as an apprentice and sort of started my journey from there. So, yeah, it was a little bit bit. My entry to industry wasn't sort of maybe what, what I thought it would be, uh.
Speaker 2:But that being said, it's the way, the way it fell for me and I really enjoyed it, I think because it clicked something, just clicked with me. I don't know what it was, because I think I go back to feeling like I was trapped like an adult. I think that really helped and you know, I never looked back in that essence. So, yeah, I've done my apprenticeship with the organisation. I did all my high national certificates, high national diploma, through the college and then after that I went post up to University Teesside and did my bachelor's and then finished my master's last year. So sort of organically again, if we go back to that word, I've organically grown it.
Speaker 1:But that's because of the support of the, the organization perry that I currently currently work for. I absolutely love that story, like I look, because I just think for me it minimizes everything in terms of you know, I, if you don't already, I would I would go into local schools and tell that story, because I talk about that a lot in here the probably lack of awareness that there still is behind what's on people's doorstep let's use New Neycliffe as a fantastic example of the industry that's on people's doorstep. It's unbelievable. And I still think school kids either don't know or don't want to know. And we know it's like being that age, you don't really want to listen until you're four. We know it's like in that age, you don't really want to listen until you're four. And I also love what a great lesson for parenting, because we all at that age, we all need a real push sometimes because there's not many kids that go.
Speaker 1:I want to do this. Most of us don't know what, don't know what they want to do. So I think what a perfect sort of way to parent where you've got something, you're not kicking and screaming and going and locking the door. You've got, you'd have had a degree of okay, I'll bet you won't have been chomping the bit, because you do. You know what I mean. It's difficult, so I bet I also love the, the respect in terms of being treated like a man and treated like a, because absolutely that's it. That is. You go through, you think about things in your life, don't you, where there was just that moment where something happened or something changed and that was the reason you're on the path you are, and that was that moment. That was that. That was that moment pure and simple, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I sort of.
Speaker 2:I talked to my dad a lot about that sort of thing. Funny enough, that welding shop I still use as a subcontractor now. I speak to the guys over there a lot and I'm very grateful to that eight-week placement I had because it definitely shunted me onto a path that, in the end, was the right path for me, was the right journey. Just to go back to what you said about schools, another thing I will say I actually went to a very, very good technology school. Um, the technology department there was fantastic. You know the equipment that they had and whatnot, but the school just didn't, didn't really drag students into that side of the technology side, and I wasn't just about the engineer. Well, say engineering, you know there was a little machine shop, there was a foundry, there was wood worker, there was actual cnc lathe in there, and yet we didn't, none of the teachers knew how to use it. Yeah, it was like all this money that was sat there.
Speaker 2:Now, when I look back on it, I mean they had 3d printing. This was going back 20, 2009 and 2014. I was at school. So they had 3d printing back then. Um, and you know the students weren't really sort of showing anything. Um, and I do wonder now how many students that left that school, similar to me, that want to go and do more vocation in you know my, you know literacy, science, that sort of stuff, um, and how many more engineers we could have had by you know satin from a young age, just seeing if they had an interest in you know the manual, lift, the pillar, drills, the foundry you know that sort of stuff and it's a big shame because it's not like the uh.
Speaker 2:It's not like saying the uh equipment's not there ready. It's not like the the infrastructure is built, the infrastructure to a certain degree is there. It's just how do we better utilize that? Because I said I did go to a very good school that should have really pushed me more down into the sort of engineering side of things, but unfortunately it didn't do it.
Speaker 1:Apologies for interrupting this episode with a very quick announcement about my business. Theo James are a specialist talent provider specifically to the manufacturing and engineering sector. I am incredibly proud of what we've achieved since our inception in 2015. I'm incredibly proud of what we've achieved since our inception in 2015. We specialize in roles from semi-skilled trades right the way up to our TJ exec search arm of the business. Both on the contract and permit side, we offer both bespoke one-off campaigns for heart of full roles or a full partnership service where we become an extension of your business. For any information, please get in touch with me or the team. I hope you enjoy the rest of the episode. Thank you.
Speaker 1:Schools need to do more and local businesses need to do more. I sit on the board of the UTC in Aycliffe and we obviously shout them out here about how good they are, what a fantastic school and the equipment there is next level. But you know it's the sort of carbon copy of a lot of local factories and they have got some engagement with the local community but not as much as they need and that is people who have gone to that school because ultimately want to go into engineering manufacturing and we need to capitalize on not just that school but other schools in the area, because that's what you're talking about. There's young Declan Milton's there at 13, 14, who still don't know what they want to do and that little bit of influence could take them on a path to that industry. Completely agree.
Speaker 1:I'm fascinated by Perry. I've walked around the site and I loved it because it was just like a museum of all different types of equipment. So I imagine that was a big pull. Just for people who don't know, tell us a little bit about Perry and what they do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so Perry Process Equipment, we are a used equipment dealer, plain and simple. We operate basically in every industry, but mainly chemical, pharmaceutical, food, beverage, power generation, plastics. So we are arguably the biggest dealer in the world. So we have sites in the US, uk, france, poland, czech Republic where we store our own equipment, we sell other people's equipment etc. And we deal in that essence. So we were set up in 1932 because of the Great Depression in the US. Basically it's a family-owned company which still is today and we recognised the need, especially in the US. And basically it's a family-owned company which still is today and we recognize the sort of the need, especially in the Great Depression, for second-hand machinery and the company's just sort of grown from there. So, like I said, in the UK we specialize mainly in chemical and pharmaceutical and food and beverage.
Speaker 2:So the way the company would operate is that, you know, when you know sites either full closures, line closures or even just individual redundant bits of equipment um, they contact ourselves. You know, we appraise the equipment for them, we purchase them, we purchase it for cash and we bring it up to newton atliff where we we everything's cleaned, everything's tested, everything's given a clean bill of health. We do. We have a very big refurbishment program going on where we refurbish a lot of stock as well, and so a big, big proportion of our stock that you come and see us at Newton is fully refurbished, fully overhauled, ready to go. And then we sort of repurpose that and, you know, usually go back into a similar industry. It's not like repurposing it for a different, you know, task. It's the same machine but you know there's a there's a huge demand for this. This is the reason that we've been going on since 1932. Um, you know we try and operate, you know, about 40 percent to 50 percent the cost of new at least, and that would obviously absolutely expedited lead times. You know we operate on a next day basis if we can. So that's sort of where we're at.
Speaker 2:Um, you know that that's quite a distilled, quick, you know lapsed version of what we are like. You know that's quite a distilled quick, you know, lapsed version of what we are Like you just said, there from a museum point of view we have thousands of items available. I mean I think across our inventory we have about 20,000 items and I think I was citing you there that we stock over 2,000 machines at the moment and that can do any process and that's what we pride ourselves on. You have a process and you need it to do something. Whatever that is, if that's, you know, reaction vessels, heat and cooling, uh, distillation, that sort of stuff, we will have the equipment to put that plant together. So, yeah, it's, uh, it's quite an interesting niche company, but it's, you know, keeps, keeps me on my toes so it's amazing.
Speaker 1:it's just, it's probably a hidden gem. It is, and this is why you know people need to connect with their community and their local businesses, because you just don't know sometimes what's inside some steel door. Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we were actually set up. We're the UK, so we were the first foreign venture from the US side of things. We were actually set up on the back of ICI over in Teesside. So obviously Teesside's got a huge process cluster. They were looking for cheap land in the 90s and a new name of ticks and boxes. It was close to the A1, quite close to Teesside, the ports, that sort of stuff, Good networks, you know, close to a major airport in Newcastle, close to a major railway station in Darlington. So we plonked ourselves there on the estate, been here since 1990. We've actually been on our current premises since 1992.
Speaker 2:And you know, it's amazing the amount of customers that we get in who are first-time customers. Of course we have a really good returning customer base, but there's still customers who are local to us, you know, who are saying I never knew you guys were here and it's, it's. We are a really best kept secret. I suppose you could save a lot of people. Um and, and there is an element to it that I think some customers at first think well, should I say customers? Some people might think that our yard, for example, which has got all these weird looking cylinders and tanks and ibcs might look almost you look like stuff destined for the scrap bin, but it's absolutely not Far from that. There's a lot of value there and there's a lot of stuff that we can do to add value when it comes to the very process.
Speaker 1:I imagine now as well. You know the last six months have been probably the most challenging I've ever seen in the industry. You know the budget was probably the biggest sort of showstopping that where suddenly people have got a massive an eye bill to pay. This is, I imagine, a nice cost-saving lot of businesses if they are looking or were looking for new machinery.
Speaker 2:There's alternatives there as well, absolutely, I mean yeah, the last six months have been very, very challenging. We've been speaking to a lot of people in our industry when I say our industry, actual equipment dealers and that sort of stuff and everyone's pretty quiet in that essence. Um, we, we thrive off, obviously, project things. It's, it's from a marketing point of view. It's a really difficult task. You know we can't go cold calling on people's doors to try and drum up business, for, for, you know, 30 000 liter tax it's a. You know there's a distinct need that a customer needs to come and use us. So you know we're trying to be there, trying to be in people's ears when there's a new project stemming up.
Speaker 2:And what we found is is, you know, from the last, let's say, five to ten years, and obviously cost is number one. Of course it is, but the main one that's starting to come through is lead time. You know a lot of manufacturers have, uh, extortionate lead times and you know if you've got a project or if you've seen a gap in the market or you're trying to scale up, and then you go and speak to a manufacturer and they say you know, best case scenario, we can manufacture this on a six month lead time. Worst case could be nine to twelve months, and we're seeing lead times over 12 months on some equipment where, whereas we uh here with, like I said, their next day delivery, no, and as long as you can make the process, work.
Speaker 1:There's obviously a bit of give and take.
Speaker 2:You know, actually, the equipment's not going to be bespoke to yourself, it's going to be made bespoke to other people and there might be some modifications you have to take on. There might be some upgrades we have to discuss. Um, there is an element, though that we can still expedite that on an eight-week lead time as opposed to a six-month lead time. And, yeah, we're finding a lot of gaps in that marketplace, where customers see us and they say no, our competitor had a problem at a breakdown and we found a gap that we can maybe try and hit that gap whilst they're in the breakdown situation, but we need the equipment ons site by next Friday. That's where we can really be agile enough to adapt. So, yeah, we found that there is some opportunity to start to step up from, like you said there, the budget and stuff. It's always been the case. I mean, we had a really strong COVID, because, covid, everyone's lead times just went bang up. Raw material prices went bang up. There was a lot of uncertainty in the world, whereas the used equipment market's quite a stable marketplace. It's a very stable marketplace in fact.
Speaker 2:I don't like to dumb the business down to this level, but people who aren't familiar with it. It's a bit like the used car business to a certain degree. On a much bigger scale it's in the, the actual um, you know, the cost of new equipment really obviously tanks. You know, if you buy a brand new piece of process equipment and it's uh, it's uninstalled, and then after you know, three, four years you want to put that on a second market. There's a lot of value lost between brand new out of the factory to unused. But once it's hit the market as an unused piece of equipment, that sort of starts to plateau off and the actual the rate declines.
Speaker 2:So there is a lot of value there and, like I said, it's a stable marketplace, whereas we've seen the used car equipment that sort of once you drove off the Ford Corp you've lost 50% of your value. It's not that bad on a second-hand market. So yeah, it's an interesting marketplace in that essence and we don't necessarily see the swings that, like I said, the budgets cause when it comes to actual manufacturing. It will trickle down to us because of confidence. Manufacturing it will trickle down to us because of confidence, you know. You know some conversations might have been having before the budget, uh, might be put on hold after the budget, that sort of stuff, um.
Speaker 1:But yeah, you said that in general the marketplace is is quite stable I guess, because you say, like you say, a nice diverse range of different industries, what have you seen? Any, any trends, you know whether positive or negative, over the last sort of six months across any of those industries, would you say?
Speaker 2:uh, trends for us. Uh, we are getting offered a lot more power generation equipment. Um, you know, I said there we did. We did a big project sort of 2023, 2024, that encompassed a lot of containerized generator sets and that unfortunately didn't work for for the client and we. They were virtually unused and you know they asked us to repurpose them and we did. We managed to actually repurpose them to Ukraine political event that we all know is the Ukraine, russia, russia, what the Ukrainian um organizations that we, we dealt with, they were looking for because of, obviously, what we've seen a lot of the bombings, etc. They were looking for a method of getting electricity and power stable, a stable supply of it. So these containerized generator sets, as long as they had a good product feed, they would be a really stable source of heat and power, be a really stable source of heat and power. So we found that. You know that was an opportunity for us that we managed to capitalize off of a geopolitical event.
Speaker 2:We found, obviously, the tariffs in the US. They did have an effect on the organization, especially our American owners, because the tariffs affected us, I think, from a bigger scale. I think, obviously, energy security has had a leading impact on every organisation, whether it be manufacturing or whatnot. And we've heard a lot of you know customers, unfortunately bigger sites, looking possibly closure because it's just not economical to manufacture in the UK at the moment. And it's a really weird double-edged sword for Perry Process that because in one essence we're dealt with an opportunity to, to you know, come in and buy some really good quality stock from from you know an organization, uh, get involved in a big project. And, by the way, sorry, from a project point of view, we can do everything. We can come in, we can dismantle the equipment, we can demolish the plant for you or we can just, you know, buy the equipment as it's laid out. So it's kind of, we offer all these these, uh, these options and but on the second hand, you know, we possibly might have lost a really good customer. So, yes, we're buying that one-time bit of stock, um, but then you know, over the next five to ten years that particular customer's not there anymore and it's. It's a really unusual situation to be in. It's sort of buying off a customer. But yeah, trends-wise there's a lot going on. I mean, I'll tell you one thing I have noticed there's obviously a lot of green projects going on at the moment that we are getting involved in Lots of stuff to do with plastic waste and clean energy, clean energy growth, carbon capture and a lot of these projects are in the infancy, where they're trying to prove the process, maybe going up from a laboratory scale to a pilot plan.
Speaker 2:And again, that's where periprocess is a fantastic option, because pilot scale it's all about adaptability and being quick, quick to the market. You've got to be there first, because there's a lot of these every university are trying to figure this stuff out and what we offer is obviously on the pilot scale again, everything is cleaned, good quality, tested equipment from premium oem brands and we can deliver it, you know, next week. And if these guys can get this, this pilot plant, together and prove that process, they can move on to the next step of their journey. So, yeah, we're talking to a lot of companies that are in this sort of clean growth sector, carbon capture, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker 1:So we're finding that that's becoming a big player for us, you know, in that essence, Exciting that With the, obviously, with the AI and Industry 4.0 and all this type of stuff, obviously that will drastically change the industry for the next 10 years. Do you see? Will that be something that the business will need to adapt to? Is it just too early to tell? What are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 2:It's a little too early to tell. I mean, we come from an industry where we weren't sure if the internet was going to affect us. Yeah, but yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, we've actually put AI in our system. So we've just upgraded our, we've got a brand new equipment, erp system and that's got AI functionality.
Speaker 2:From a marketing point of view and quoting point of view, it's a really, really clever tool. What it does is when we we have a thing called search orders, where you might pick the phone up to us and say I'm looking for this model, this exact model. We don't have it. So we will put a search order out there, which is where that sales manager will go and scour and ask the dealers and hopefully try and find you one, but that's not obviously a given. So we have a system now where we can actually set this customer up as a search order and then it'll use AI that's constantly scouring our marketplace. And then, when, say, our Polish site say they buy this exact model in, or say our French office lists someone else's which is the exact model, the AI will actually automatically generate a quotation to our customer without us even having to really sort of deal with that.
Speaker 2:And it's really clever the way it sort of filters through our full network, which I said. It's a huge network with 20,000 items on there. So, yeah, we are starting to use AI ourselves internally and, of course, I used the digitization of sites and stuff like this. I think it's going to be really interesting for me to see just as an engineer, it'd be interesting to see how that comes into our place. I think we are a bit behind that, but I can imagine you know a lot of the automotive sector and stuff like this. I think it's going to be pivotal.
Speaker 1:Yeah, excellent. I am very excited by it. I think you know there's loads of stuff happening. I think you know there's loads of stuff happening. I think we're in a perfect position to do that. You know, as an industry, a few quickfire questions, if you don't mind, yep, which you didn't know were coming, what it could be a difficult one for you because you work for one business who was the best manager you've ever had and why?
Speaker 2:Oh, best manager of my heart, oh, erm, damn. Oh, yeah, put me on the spot. Yeah, um, to be fair, the manager who departed the business, he, he was great paul. Um, a big part of this was actually mine and his relationship, which again goes back to the story I told about when I was in school. Um, paul trekked me a little bit like a child when I was an apprentice. When I was his apprentice and I remember it might be an 18 month or something, my three-year apprenticeship and my I remember speaking to my granddad about my, my date, my week on a weekend, and bear in mind he was a maintenance engineer, multi-skilled, and I was doing that apprenticeship. He was asking me some quick fire questions like that and I didn't have a clue what he was on about, like from a, from a knowledge point of view, and he just basically rattled me and just said you know that's not good enough. Um, you know you're hiding. He basically said you're hiding an industry and you need to be this. This apprenticeship's your. You know, your, your tutelage, it's your way of getting into the industry and learning these skills that you're going to grow from. So on.
Speaker 2:On that Monday morning, I had a frank and honest conversation with my manager about. You know, I don't feel like I'm getting taught what I really need to. And again, that flash moment I can always you know it's a snap in the pan. It was a snap moment. Our relationship just completely changed and he took me as his right-hand man and I remember him saying he thought I was just a, you know, a dumb kid who wasn't that bothered. He said you've, you've, shown me that you're clearly not so he apologized to me. He said I apologize for taking that away from you, um, but now you've shown me that you are wanting to learn. He took me under his wing and I guess that's probably how I started my journey.
Speaker 2:More at perry is because that taught me to be a yet baby, like a yes, man is in policy. Do you want to do we show you this? Yes, yeah. Do you want me to take you on this course? Yes, yes. And and I said from there I suppose that that the last 18 months I had of my apprenticeship under under my ex-manager, uh, was, was, was brilliant and uh, yeah, I think he did. He did teach me a lot and and sort of set the foundations for where I am and luckily I've managed to take the reins from there, so yeah, I'm sure he'll be very proud of what he's helped create as well.
Speaker 1:So no, that's an excellent answer. Any books, audio books, podcasts, anything you've ever read or listened to which you'd recommend which has helped you on your way, would you've?
Speaker 2:read. I've read some really interesting books, like from from a mindset point of view. One of my favorite ones is that matthew mcconaughey's green light great book, yeah, great book, yeah, yeah, great audio book as well learning how to take something like a negative and think that's not your time, talk about journeys and stuff like this.
Speaker 2:I'm not I'm not a religious person as such, but I do believe in pathways and I do believe sort of in a universe to a certain degree and I do believe that that book really sort of pulls that together, that you know we are where we are in our life and where we should be, um, so that's a really good book. Uh, phil knight's shoe dog, uh, that's a brilliant book from an entrepreneurial point of view. How many negatives he had to encompass under blue ribbon to turn Nike into what it is today. So, yeah, there's a couple of books I do enjoy reading in that essence from people, some really interesting life stories in them books.
Speaker 1:Two of my top two books there as well. Both the audio book for mapping on. It is just you need to, because it's his voice and he's just yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So my wife falls asleep with him every night.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he does, I think he does do that as a side of his thing. He sort of uh does, uh. Audio books are tremendous, book that, um. And then, finally, if you had a, you know the industry has its benefits but also has its challenges. If you had a magic wand now and you could fix anything within the industry, its whole, what, what would you do?
Speaker 2:um, I think empowerment of young, young engineers absolutely pivotal. Um, I mean, I'm grateful I've had both journeys. I've had the apprenticeship and I did the further education and I can see the benefits. And I will stand there strong and say that to a certain degree, we need both sides of things. We need these apprentices coming through who don't have any interest in academia but want to learn the core skills, do their apprenticeship and be very good engineers. And we also need the academics coming through the university and we also need the academics coming through the university.
Speaker 2:But what I've found when I've put myself up against some, some young project engineers, let's say, coming in from university, they are absolutely terrified of making a mistake. And I'm only where I am today because I've made hundreds of mistakes, but I've learned from every single one and I found that a lot of these project engineers I don't know if it's the empowerment, both if it's not getting nurtured properly, I don't necessarily know the call without actually digressing and speaking to them, but I feel like that's a big challenge that Perry have in regards to. We find that it's easier for some of our customers to buy new because of that, because they haven't got that problem-solving capability, but a big part of that is because of the confidence, and we sort of joke about it in the organization. But it is true that there was a lot more old school engineers previously that in our industry um would dictate play. So they would buy equipment off ourselves which was probably of a lesser quality than it should have been, but they had the, the engineering knowledge, they had the, the sort of um, the confidence, to sort of take on any modifications, alterations themselves and and repurpose that and put into a plant which you know was was, uh, economically efficient, you know, viable, that sort of stuff. Whereas these engineers have departed the business. They might have retired, they might have gone into other industries and some of the younger engineers that come in through don't possess, like I said, I feel like it's more of the confidence. So it'd be easier for them to go from a CapEx point of view and say to their you know, whoever it is project manager, overall or head of procurement that, oh, it's easier if we buy this equipment for X, y, z, because we're going to get all these guarantees and they're going to promise this, whereas, perry, we've actually pivoted our business towards that. That's why we offer a lot more services now, because we're trying to take away all these sort of fears and worries. So it would be nice to see some younger engineers who are coming through, given maybe a little bit more rope to sort of fall over and get back up again and learn from their mistakes.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I think that's one of my main, my main sort of concerns, if you like, um, obviously from from a whole manufacturing in this, in this country. Should I say one thing I have noticed is, you know, from a government support point of view, there's just absolutely zero support from these bigger manufacturers. You know, energy security is such a vital thing for us and we haven't got it, period. You know, we still rely on. You know, we've shut down our, our last coal plant, which is should have. You know, we've got to not be relying on coal absolutely yet, whereas a country like france, who is, you know, global, has a global monopoly on nuclear, still has coal power stations running to date and because of that we're paying exorbitant energy prices and it's really difficult for companies to keep on going with the gas and electricity prices and because of that I see that we've got a lot of fantastic businesses that are involved in.
Speaker 2:So, like I said earlier, the pilot scale. So we're talking about the carbon capture, green energy, green hydrogen, all this sort of stuff and and that's fantastic I mean 15 years ago we were the world leaders in in wind turbine product. When I say we turn down to production, we proved the process, that wind turbines were a fantastic you know wave of get renewable energy, and yet there was no once that proved that process in the UK. There was no help from the government to help scale that up into an actual industry. So what we ended up doing was we had to prove the process for other foreign investors to invest in their own thing. So that's why most the wind turbines that you see now are manufactured in South Korea and then the shipped halfway around the world just be put in the North Sea.
Speaker 2:It's it's just a bit of a foreign concept to me that that we know we're fantastic pioneers at proving a process in it.
Speaker 2:Again, from from when I was at university I learned that a lot, that there's a lot of brilliant people in this country and we have that knowledge and that's why we are a world leader when it comes to sort of manufacturing principles.
Speaker 2:However, we don't have that backing from our own government to actually, you know, manufacture on that scale anymore, and so I think it's going to continually going down that route. I think we're going to prove a lot of fantastic breakthroughs in industry. I think we're going to, you know, prove, like I said, the green hydrogen carbon capture. I said that we're working for some really interesting university projects at the moment, like you know, uh, reclaiming, you know, metals from, from chemistry and this sort of stuff. But then what's going to happen is when they actually need that money from the government to scale it up, they're not going to get that, so they're probably going to sell the technology elsewhere and that technology is going to end up in other factories across the globe, and it's a shame because there's some fantastic things going on in this country. I don't feel like we've got the back end to continue that, you know, on a major scale.
Speaker 1:Well said, mate, really well said. Look. A great place to finish. Look, I want to thank you for this. It's been a tremendous episode and you know you really, really inspired me and you know I really mean that because no disrespect to anyone I've had in before, but typically when, when, if I interview, uh, someone who's got 30, 40 years and have led businesses, you expect them to have a lot of things to to say and to communicate because they've they've had a really long career, a lot of experiences.
Speaker 1:You know you have communicated so unbelievably well throughout this episode for someone who is, you know, still starting out their leadership dream to some aspect.
Speaker 1:But you're an inspiration for for people who either want to get into industry or who are in it to want to get into management leadership, because, as I mentioned you know in the middle of the episode, more people there's, we need more people like you industry, and I think the story you have is inspirational and you should tell it because there are so many people out there in schools who don't know what they want to do and they just need to be given that chance or exposure in your circumstance to be able to work in these environments, to understand that that is a path for them and we need that to keep this industry alive.
Speaker 1:And you communicate that extremely well right at the start of the episode, talking through one of the biggest challenges that any leader has in terms of when they organically get promoted into a team, to then to manage that team. So there's so many lessons for people to take from this. Really fascinating to understand about exactly what Perry do because, as I said, I've always thought it's a bit of a hidden gem in the industry and the UK always thought it's a bit of a hidden gem in the industry and and um and the UK, so it's hopefully a great opportunity for people to understand more about the business as well. If people want to learn more, like you or Perry, what's the best way to sort of website you? What was?
Speaker 2:it. So so, absolutely, yeah, we can obviously link our channels from our website. Um, I said there for myself, you know, I could drop my email address if there's anyone who wants to discuss further the journey and stuff like this. I absolutely, from an advocacy point of view, because my pathway one thing I will say about my pathway as well it, you know it's a very plausible pathway. It's not like I was sort of, you know, chucked in, chucked in somewhere. You know there's a lot of exposure that is available there and obviously, like I said, they're partnering up with places like utc and stuff like this and giving a helping hand.
Speaker 2:I mean perry, what we do again, because we're a small company. Uh, from a summer internship point of view, we've been very fortunate that a lot of people who worked here their children leaving a school of 16, 17 year old have always all worked at perry for for a six-week placement, right. So very big on the summer placements. And we've got one, one of them who's ended up at university doing mechanical engineering at newcastle and that's big part of that was because, you know, he came into our workshop and got interested in the industry, wasn't too sure exactly which part of the industry he was interested in. So that's why he's gone to university to sort of do a degree and hopefully you know he'll be doing some fantastic things. But a big part of that was because of his exposure on our shop floor. So, yeah, it's absolutely, it's pivotal that we get kids interested in engineering and you know, organically, I guess the core word organically organically grow these engineers, because we need more period 100% well, thank you, declan, it's been amazing appreciate that really appreciate, it really appreciate it.
Speaker 1:I think I've really enjoyed the call.
Speaker 2:It's all mixed up. You know my story. I don't feel like the story's interesting as such. Sometimes it might be boring people, but it's nice to hear sometimes people feel a bit different about the story. It might be a bit pricked up some ears.
Speaker 1:It's a great story. It's a great story. I'm glad you got to tell it, mate, so we need to keep telling it. So thank you, yeah, no problem. Thank you so much for listening or watching this episode of the Manufacturing Leaders Podcast. Please just like or subscribe. It really helps grow the show and obviously improve the industry.
Speaker 1:If you want any more information about Theo James, as I mentioned midway through the episode, please get in touch with me or the team. I would love to talk about how it can help you directly or your business. We are more than just a recruiter and I know people say that, but it's something I'm incredibly passionate about. We are in business for much more than just a bums on seats approach. We want to help people grow, we want to help improve their lives and, ultimately, I want to work with businesses and people who share the same values as we do, and that's something I'm incredibly passionate about. So please, if that is you and you are passionate about that dream role or passionate about your people, please get in touch with me or the team. I would absolutely love to talk a bit more detail. Thank you very much. Speak soon.