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Manufacturing Leaders
Currently the Number 1 Manufacturing Podcast on Spotify and Apple Podcasts!
Mark Bracknall, Founder of Theo James Recruitment is the host of Manufacturing Leaders.The UK is still a powerhouse in Manufacturing & Engineering. We speak to those who are helping to make those firms a success. By motivating, inspiring and managing teams.Are you new to management? Are you keen to hear from those who are dealing with the same day-to-day challenges you are facing?In this podcast we get inside the minds of the Managers in Manufacturing & Engineering, and understand how they get the best our of their teams and make Manufacturing & Engineering great.
Manufacturing Leaders
How Authenticity Drives Operational Excellence in Industry
🎧 Jo Lloyd's Leadership Evolution at Expanded Metal 🎧
From administrative temp to Head of People at Expanded Metal, Jo Lloyd shares her inspiring 12-year journey of transforming leadership in manufacturing. In this episode, she dives into how the industry has shifted from command-and-control to a more people-first approach.
Key takeaways include:
🖐 Leadership is about guiding – no ego, just collaboration.
🖐 Emotional intelligence fuels better decisions and team energy.
🖐 Authentic leadership means being yourself, not fitting stereotypes.
🖐 Expanded Metal’s shift from hierarchy to collaboration.
🖐 COVID-19 as a catalyst for sustainable practices.
🖐 Hybrid thinking and cross-training employees in multiple roles.
🖐 Diversity in manufacturing means embracing diverse thoughts and approaches.
🖐 Community engagement with schools to change perceptions of manufacturing careers.
🖐 Challenges are fuel for progress, not barriers.
🖐 Leaders should be accessible, helping others rise instead of pulling up the ladder.
Hit play for a conversation that challenges traditional manufacturing leadership and champions a new era of inclusivity, collaboration, and emotional intelligence.
Please subscribe to the channel for more content! Theo James are a Manufacturing & Engineering Recruiter based in the North East, helping Manufacturing and Engineering firms grow across the UK. Please call us on 0191 5111 298
Speaker. Speaker Do do, do no-transcript.
Speaker 2:Are you struggling?
Speaker 1:with this. Yeah, I've got my own tea time here, but I'm having some technical problems.
Speaker 2:I can try Teams. Doesn't always record amazingly, but I'm having some technical problems. I can try Teams. Doesn't always record amazingly, but I can try Teams if not, so we can have that as an option. If you can't get on, so do you want to let him try?
Speaker 3:And if not, I can try and jump on Teams, right, okay, just when we're trying to connect, it's just circling, just not having it.
Speaker 2:If he can't, for some reason reason, teams. The audio is never super permanent, so I tend to use Zoom, but I have used Teams for a couple. So if we can, I'll jump on, I'll create a team. Oh, he looks like you might be coming in bear with me. I can see, admit, I've just. I've tried to put you in. See what happens. See what happens. Are we on?
Speaker 3:yeah see you then, cheers, cheers, bye are we on?
Speaker 1:yes, are we on?
Speaker 3:yes, I can hear you yeah, michael, you are a star, alright, thank you can you hear me?
Speaker 2:alright? Can you hear me alright? Sure can. There's a bit of an echo. Bit of an echo. Ooh, that's bad. There's a bit of an echo. There's a bit of an echo.
Speaker 3:You might need him back would I be better taking it off there, do you think, and just doing it on me?
Speaker 2:it's, when I speak, the echo, so it must be the speaker, maybe on your side, I'm thinking you can still have that on we'll do as well.
Speaker 1:Make sure that this is actually the noise is coming through your laptop let me know if you want me to test. Just give me a second try to remember where the settings are on zoom settings. Audio it should be fine with that. Or your moment this should be fine with that. Should I try now? You're still comfortable? I'll tell you what we can do.
Speaker 3:If we just take it off the tally. I can do it through the laptop.
Speaker 2:I'll just grab some water, Jo would you take it, I'll grab some water.
Speaker 3:Jo, would you take it?
Speaker 1:No worries I was just trying to use the fancy technology. I was going to put that on mute and see if we could hear it that way. You see that's going through the yelling audio. All right, hold on, sorry, yelling audio and change that to speaker's radio audio, and now we should be able to hear him that way. Yes, that is going through, yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, right, is that any better?
Speaker 2:Mark, you want me to test? You want me to test? Oh, I just learned myself. Oh, I just learned myself.
Speaker 3:I think I'll take it off there, Mike. I'll just use the laptop.
Speaker 1:Right. Is there any better for you?
Speaker 2:Try now. Is there any better for you? Uh, try now. Is there any better? Perfect, yes, my, my horrible voice is gone. Thank you very much. Thank you, thank you, I need, I need an it guy on uh in the building.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah he's constantly frustrated with me and my IT dramas.
Speaker 2:Nice cropping of the X Smash behind, though. Like that.
Speaker 3:I'm trying to. Yeah, the field doesn't kill me. Try and get both in.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, how are you? You all right Full on week.
Speaker 3:Having almost the fortnight from hell, oh really well, just yeah um. Last week it felt like everything, but I've lost a major machine oh, that's what like, uh what just gone down yeah, um, it went and we thought we'd recovered it last week and then it went again on friday and the last two days it's starting to look like it's going to be catastrophic.
Speaker 2:Why did you get a big press?
Speaker 3:It's one of the value-add ones, one of the blanking lines, but it's just a very niche product for our biggest customer. What a nightmare We've actually been, can you believe, crawling around for the last hour and a half on the floor with technicians who need me to see what they're dealing with. I see it, I understand it, but we just need a solution.
Speaker 2:I know it's a nightmare, so is it parts? You don't have to fix it then, or is it just trying to isolate the problem?
Speaker 3:So it's the motor is burned out and the machine's around about 30 to 35 years old and this kind of motor doesn't get made anymore oh, nightmare we've burned this one. Um, I think we found the right root cause, but it doesn't change the fact that we we need to repair the motor. Um, this sounds really boring. There's a rotor in the motor that needs winding back, and usually your wind is circular. It turns out that this one, for whatever reason, it's almost like a 20p shape.
Speaker 3:It's really ridged. There's only two machines in the UK that can do it. One company hasn't responded and the other one says 13 weeks minimum.
Speaker 2:Is your customer not someone who will be able to wait?
Speaker 3:I guess as well, no we supply to them in the UK twice a week. Big quantities we supply to around the world. So, I've got probably four or five different plants on.
Speaker 1:Ooh right.
Speaker 3:Hanging on thread at the moment.
Speaker 2:Stress Just as well. You're calm, don't get stressed. Imagine if it was two years ago.
Speaker 3:You know what it's actually funny. One of the things Phil said to me was is it that serious? Because you know you're not going around with your hair on fire. And I said, yeah, that's just not my MO.
Speaker 1:It doesn't add anything, does it yes?
Speaker 2:We'll try and have a calming hour while we're talking about all the good stuff, yeah, but uh, I'll try and um, I try now and make it about 35 to 40, but I'll see how we get on. But I've got the notes that we did in front of us, which obviously that note taker just creates for me, and I'll look down from time to time, but I'll just use it as a bit of a guide. Do you know what I mean? In that sense, whatever comes up comes up, but is there anything that we didn't talk about that you want me to sort of segue you into or talk about that? You've kicked me for not asking you anything at all.
Speaker 3:No, I've got to be honest. It was a while ago, it's all standard stuff.
Speaker 2:I mean, I've sort of got here, we I've got here is just talking about your journey, and your journey in terms of where the business was and what the business was when you started versus what it is now, and the different sort of leadership styles and your style in particular, and just talking about that people first model and the culture piece. So if you're still, if you're keen to talk about that, still, jo, that works perfectly for me give it a bash, uh, and if it's not working, just tell me no, it'll be, it'll be great.
Speaker 2:We'll just have a conversation and, uh, just see where it takes us. So I'm looking forward to it. To answer you what I time do now, I tend to record the introduction after you've gone to the end of it, where I just sort of summarize what we talked about. So it's recording now. So I just and it's not live, remember. So, don't worry, we can always do we need to if we need to, to do anything.
Speaker 2:But I'd normally just very briefly introduce you on this and then, after I've done that, that first question is always what does it mean to be a leader? Just to give you a bit of warning on that one. That's always the first question. So I'll ask you, don't worry, do you know what I mean? Whatever comes up, comes up and we'll have a conversation around it. I quite like the fact of these that people don't really prep. I quite like the fact that conversations, rather than you know, I mean scripts. I I had some at the start where people really over prepared and it was really scripted and I just thought it doesn't feel authentic. So I quite like the fact they are just chats and see where it takes us so we'll, we'll kick off when you're ready, if that's right with you yeah
Speaker 3:excellent right the email, because I've just yeah, I make that mistake sometimes yeah, so that's off. I'll get rid of it on the phone okay, perfect, sorry, so excellent.
Speaker 2:A massive warm welcome today to, to joe lloyd, who's the head of people at expanded metal. Really looking forward to having joe on. How are we all right?
Speaker 3:very good mark looking forward to this yeah, me too.
Speaker 2:Look, I'm looking forward to talking about your journey, the company's journey, the, the cultural um journey's been on um. Before we do that, it's the first question I ask everyone that comes on what does it mean to you to be a leader?
Speaker 3:So to me personally, it's probably the most important role I think I've taken in working career, in so much as I feel a depth of responsibility with it. I always thought when I was younger that you became a manager or a leader of a business because you wanted that stature, you wanted that title. And as I've grown up and developed in working life, I've realized it's actually not about ego, it's not about title and stature. It's, it's almost about being in it with, with your team, but ultimately being the one that can help guide, shape and develop, but doing it together and not worrying about your ego whilst you're doing it yeah, I really like that.
Speaker 2:I can't be agree, actually really agree. And I think what's interesting is now I see more managers like like you and like that and have that concept at the forefront. But I wonder why that never used to be the case, because I think people did used to see leadership as a career ladder and I think let people led probably with a bit more ego than they do now, and I don't think people get away with that now. So I I wonder is it because they don't get away with it, because people don't stand for it, or is it just the fact that people have been trained better to be better leaders and you're getting people different sorts of people now want to be leaders? I'm not sure. What do you think?
Speaker 3:I think, um, there's been a social shift actually, and I can see it in the business that I work in and I can see it in our society as a whole, where leadership used to be about command and control, and that was very much the business that I joined into. It was, you know, the people in charge were right, you followed, you did with directive, you didn't ask questions, and that was very much how I think leadership was and you aspired to that. You're almost promoted if you had that voice and you had that strength within you, whereas now I think leaders tend to be quieter, more thoughtful. They have that inauthenticity, that in a almost power to say it's okay to be what I am and that might be a little bit different, but I can still get you, the business and everybody there. But I think society shifted to allow that to happen. It's no longer the the 2.4 blueprint that we grew up on yeah, I, I agree.
Speaker 2:I think it's interesting. I think if you talked about most intelligence 20 years ago, probably would have been left out most boardrooms. You know, emotional intelligence 20 years ago probably would have been laughed at in most boardrooms, you know. I think you just wouldn't have been. But now it's such an integral part of leadership at every level, isn't it?
Speaker 3:Oh, absolutely. It's one of the key principles that drives me. Am I almost making those decisions with the right level of emotion in? Because I think when I grew up, I used to think you had to put emotion to one side, you had to put a box around it, you weren't allowed to use it almost. But emotional intelligence gives us so much more. I've really had it drilled into my ethos by myself and by a coach that emotions are two things it's energy and it's data, and if you use both of those things, your success with yourself and your team is just so much different yeah, I love that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I completely agree. It's uh, and you're right, when I, when I first started on the business, I I was sort of scared to show emotion because I just thought I'm the leader, I've got to be the one, that's just if anything bad happens, I can't show that emotion and I think it's only when you show vulnerability actually in a way that people become. People see that you're human and kind of want to work for you more than if you don't show that in a way.
Speaker 3:Oh, absolutely. I mean, we're going through quite a tough set of breakdowns on site at the moment and one of the things I think has helped bonding us together is using that emotion in so much as I've showed frustration, I've showed some disappointment, um, and then this morning, uh, in a really weird way, we're making slow baby steps, but the team has pulled together so well, everybody's got a function, they're communicating, so it's really almost like clockwork. We're not at an end solution, but watching everybody acknowledge that feel a particular way and it might not necessarily have gotten that action complete yet, but they can bounce off of somebody or they can pivot and do something it's phenomenal yeah we wouldn't have been there 20 years ago, or even 10 years ago.
Speaker 3:It would have been that autocratic go do your job. Yeah, yeah and get me that result right now, whereas almost what we're going through is painful. But what we're going to learn and the journey that we go through to get to the end of this is going to be just as important as getting that machine running.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love that. You're absolutely right. Manufacturing is such a key one for that because it has evolved but it's still in many organizations still got a lot of way to go, because you know break that's a great example because you know you will have the pressure that, let's say, maintenance engineer or ngm is under to try and get that that running again. You know there's automotive companies which I've heard stories where they're literally stood around them with their arms folded seeing stuff, just waiting, and that you know not helping, just watching and waiting, and and and and just to find the how much downtime that's going to cost and that's not helping, it's putting more pressure.
Speaker 3:Oh, absolutely not. I think to the flip side, what does help is, even today, I'm not the subject matter expert and I wouldn't paint myself as such, but I do have decision-making abilities. I have the ability to empathize and listen, and the guys almost led me by the hand to say come, look at the machine. Let me walk you through what I'm looking at and why I'm thinking what I'm thinking, and then my part can almost step in from that perspective not to be the subject matter expert, but to be the work, that the new set of ears, to be able to listen and pick through what all of those opposing opinions are. And that's what they're looking for in a leader. They're not looking for somebody to come, be so autocratic and tell do? That's the only way, I think, you can retain that authenticity within your role and it's the only way that the team will start to build around you when you want that subject matter expert we agree.
Speaker 2:I'd like to talk briefly, okay, about your, your journey, I guess, because I think your journey coincides with the business journey and the journey business has been on to be where they are today. But I know you, know you, your role now is very different to to what you first started. So give me well, if you don't mind, firstly, for people who don't know about expanding metal, just um, tell us a little bit about what they do as a business, if that's all right no problem.
Speaker 3:So we are exactly what we say on the team. We're an expanded metal mesh manufacturer. However, as the business has grown, we're 136 years old, so you can imagine it started a really old fashioned way with processes that were clunky and would, for those that are a bit more local, would fit very well into the likes of Beamish. Today, we are so much more than that. We have a core business that is mesh manufacturing, but we're also a filtration expert, a high security expert. We make architectural mesh, agricultural mesh. We have probably 8,000 patterns in our books that go into so many different industries, and it can be everything from functional to aesthetic. It's a fantastic product. It's malleable, uh. So in terms of manufacturing, we're no longer that one thing that we were 136 years ago, where we are so many pivotal things. It's great. Um, and you are right.
Speaker 3:My journey in the business probably does reflect that. I came in as one thing which weirdly was a temp to cover some administrative duties in a logistics department, and nearly 12 years later I'm now heading up operations and people with lots of different iterations following up the operations. But the journey to get there I've hit every step. Production so there was some supervisory and then some production management. I moved into quality, I've moved through health and safety, I've picked up environmental and then eventually I did the people side, because that was really a passion of mine in helping drive the business.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I'm seeing that more now because I think traditionally you know someone in a leadership role or operations leadership role either come from the supply chain route, engineering route or perhaps commercial route. I'm seeing more people in those roles now have come from more of a people-focused role, whether it be your home resources or something where they're involved in the people. I don't think that's a coincidence. That is the case, I think, because people understand now that everything was talked about that leading with empathy and emotion. Intelligence piece is that. Was that one of the reasons why you've gone down that journey? You think?
Speaker 3:yeah, I was always interested in, uh, the hr side of it, but not the process side. That's just legal. If I'm being honest, anybody could pick up and learn that. I'm a great believer that there's a difference between knowledge, skills and behavior, which I do believe you can train into anybody. I was more interested in the people development and that side in particular. How can we train, how can we coach and what can we just do? That that's a little bit different.
Speaker 3:So it probably took me eight or nine years to get there in this business. But I think it was important to hit those every steps to learn the business from the ground up, because if you want to apply those principles into a normal style manufacturing and change the culture along the way, you have to build the credibility with. I think every job is important, I think every person's important, but this is now how I'm going to help you shape into the more modern business. So I think all of those elements were there. So when I finally got the opportunity, it was, it was exciting, um, to really be able to focus on people, culture and driving change through almost that human-centric approach how have?
Speaker 2:how have you changed over time? If you, if you looked back at yourself? Five, six, eight years ago versus now, what would you say the key changes have been and why did you change?
Speaker 3:I think I had a very black and white approach. Um, it was my background actually. I I trained in the law originally, uh, so I think when you do something like that, you become very well. This is what it says. It's very black and white, um, and then functionally, some of the things that I did do, the quality and safety are very process driven. So you live in that world that you can or you can't, you do or you don't, and those are the rules.
Speaker 3:So I think my initial approach in a business like this was certainly that, and I thought that's what the business needed, because it's a very male driven business overall manufacturing and us in particular. We aren't as diverse as we'd like to be yet. So I thought I had to match the environment. It's took me, um, some retraining, some coaching, some outside influence to realize actually I shouldn't try to emulate being a male in a male world. What I should be is just me. There's only one way to be authentic and that's be yourself. So that's what I've changed um, and it's took time to realize that I can soften. Um, and applying skills like listening and empathy aren't weaknesses, they're actually just a different approach that help other people migrate with time as well.
Speaker 2:Does the time? Did you feel like you were? Because I guess you're absolutely right. People will act a certain way to fit in, act a certain way to get the job done. If they feel that's needed to be, and if that is a very male-dominated environment and a culture that's been probably for a long time, they probably act to a certain way. Did you feel like in the moment that was the case, or is it more on reflection? Now you've changed your style, do you think? Because they're two different things, aren't they?
Speaker 3:they are. Um, I actually think I knew at the time that I was uh, I wasn't being the best version of myself. I wasn't really happy either. I could hear there was times I would be flippant in meetings because I thought, yeah, we're in a male-driven meeting, they would like a cuss word, I would like that joke, um. But actually it wasn't needed. Uh, and it's not who I am as a person, um, and then there would be times that I would be the, the autocratic. No, I've got the position, you'll just do it that way, because that's what I'm telling you to do. But actually that's the old style approach that they're used to, but not what we, we want to be, and I don't want to be that person either. And it took me a longer time to not know it but to almost have the confidence to start going. That's not who I am and that's not who I want to be. And those are two very important key things who do you want to be? And almost, are you happy with that? And how do you make that journey?
Speaker 2:It takes so much bravery just to do that because, look, we're all ever since we were kids, we all just want to fit in. You know that's that it is. And I think wherever you go, there's that chameleon-esque sort of well. We mold ourselves in a group to make sure people like us and, rightly or wrongly, that's that's so hard on leadership, because ultimately, that isn't your job, is it? It's your job to empower people and and make them better absolutely.
Speaker 3:But um, if you can't be the most truthful version of yourself, you're never going to empower somebody to be their truthful version of themselves yeah you're almost teaching people to be that chameleon and nobody should be coming to any situation pretending to be another yeah they shouldn't feel like they have to either I think you know you said a few times but that all being authentic and being yourself, it is so important and actually that that's how you create diverse cultures within businesses.
Speaker 2:Because if, if everyone acted, thought the same, you get the same ideas. If you, um, if you were to step into a another business tomorrow and the culture was, the culture wasn't anywhere near that you want it to be, it was archaic, it was, you know, it wasn't forward thinking. What would be the first? Because there'll be people you know driving into work now, listening, thinking culture is not where it needs to be here. We need to get there, but it takes some time. What would be the first few things you would look at and analyze and look to change? Would you say?
Speaker 3:so I think there's a couple of key things for me. One is every single function in a business is really important, um, and I would say the first thing is to learn what that function is and how it contributes, because often we forget that point. What's the business goal and how does it actually contribute to that? And I mean actually find that out. Don't just assume that if you've got somebody who's a machine operator, you know what that means. I promise you you don't. You need to know what the actual mechanics of that function look like to that person and do that at as many levels or every level that you simply can.
Speaker 3:And then the second thing is start talking to your people. I don't mean send out an email or send out a questionnaire asking how you feel and what you want to see in the future. Those are really old ways to do it and that they almost put that barrier there. I mean, grab a coffee, go and have a conversation, uh, pop your head into a gathering, um or a meeting and ask if you can listen in or contribute or kind of offer any advice, something that builds that human connection, because that's the end goal. You have to start building that human connection. If you don't do that and understand what their drivers are and have contributed to the business, you have no hope of impacting culture. Not even five percent in my opinion yeah, I can't agree.
Speaker 2:The flip side. That, I guess, is the data piece, because obviously there's the human element for it. What are your thoughts on data that you want to be on with as a business? I guess the people, the process piece. It's a bit, you know, sometimes the two different things to be able to make decisions. Is that something you you're passionate about at all?
Speaker 3:absolutely. Um, I think data-driven decision making is uh it's one of those phrases we hear everywhere. Nobody really understands what it means, but it's integral, whether it be everything from what was the output of that machine to what's the cost or what's the profit, or even down to things like the emotional data or the people data that might be your attrition or your absence. You should look at all of that data and have a look at what that's telling you for sure. But recently, this will bring a wry smile in the business I work in. Recently, this will bring a wry smile in the business I work in. I've actually took a step further and I'm trying to figure out how we look at data analysis and automation within my areas as well. That's not to walk people out of it. I think it can work side by side, but I think digital analysis and automation is the way of the future. We just need to take the fear factor away and have our teams embrace it yeah, yeah, in a perfect world.
Speaker 2:Then what if you could click your fingers? What data would you have on a daily, weekly, monthly basis? That wouldn't would help you make decisions to improve the business, would you say oh god, there's so much in every single area.
Speaker 3:There was so much. So, um, I talked about that example earlier of the machinery breaking down. Um, we just simply put in a set of facts into one of the bots and it gave us a priority list and I'd say, probably trimmed off 12, 12 to 16 hours of our repair schedule. That's in a machine, in a machine that is really established with really old parts and really old processing. That's how good being able to use that bot was. But likewise, you can pull up trend analysis data. So I've got machine output data from my factory. How does that compare? Is there any improvements? Is there any technology out there? Is there somebody that's doing something different? It'll suggest companies. It suggests people. I can find even a conference that I might want to attend. So there's so much that you can start looking at by just building those facts and using compare and contrast same, whether it be how I want to recruit or how I want to train or how I want to drive profit. So it's all about achieving our goals and that cost center.
Speaker 2:At the end of the day, you can use the data to do that with the people that you have yeah that I want to, um, ask you a question, if you don't mind, in terms of you mentioned before, joe, about you brought a coach and you brought someone to work with you, which I, which I think is so underrated, and, um, you know, for me, every leader should have a leadership coach, what the main things they've he, she or they they've worked on with you to enabled you to be the leader you are today, would you say.
Speaker 3:So I think it's about for the coach and I, we really hone in on what my current skill level is, where I want to go, and then we've really worked on the journey of getting there. So the two end pieces are almost mine to worry about. What I do with the coach is this is what's driving kind of that set of emotions right now, and that's using the energy, using the data, and then we build those objectives based off of that to say where do I want to get to and how am I going to get there. It's integral. So it's things like what triggers? Why does it trigger?
Speaker 3:And that's important for me because I was almost only getting to that first step. I would know if something made me mad, sad, angry or indifferent, but I didn't know the why. And, importantly, I was shutting the door on the why. I was just moving on to the next thing. And once I know that why, I can then start addressing well, if that's why it triggers me, what can I do differently about that moving forward? And the other key thing is the vulnerability piece I've really worked on and learned to open up and say this is who I am, this is why I feel a particular way. That's what your influence to that is, which involves some key skills and things I have in the difficult conversation, but doing it with almost honesty and empathy, to not upset them or, if I do upset them, explain why they're going to feel upset from my point of view, um, and really just find a way to separate all of those key elements and move forward. If, if that makes perfect sense.
Speaker 2:I I I think that's amazing because I don't think we as humans reflect ever, unless we're forced to do that. I think we're always, particularly in busy jobs, we're always on to the next, on to the next.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:I think there's other things as well. I think about this coaching. It's been phenomenal. There's a realization on where I stop and somebody else starts. So oftentimes I think we all do this. We take on other people's stresses, emotions, thoughts, ideas, goals, but actually what's ours? Why are we absorbing all of that if we haven't really figured out where we're going and where we want to get to and how we want to get there? And then sometimes you have to be able to draw that line and say, actually that's just yours to deal with. We don't do that enough as leaders.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you've learned that where the barriers are, in that sense as well.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Feel free to give a shout out to whoever you're using, because it sounds like a very good coach.
Speaker 3:A very, very good coach. I would say Paul Cheatham. Oh, paul, amazing. Do you know, paul?
Speaker 2:I know Paul well, so Paul does all our HR events. Paul is tremendous.
Speaker 3:So so paul does all our hr events. Um, paul is tremendous, so good. Yeah, yes, and I have to say, salt of the earth character, really easy to um, to kind of get on and bond with, which I think not to brand us all as the same, but uh, in the northern world we like to build relationships.
Speaker 2:I think, yeah, I'm a fantastic guy doing that superbcastle fan, but you can't win them all, but yeah, and he, he has single handedly um. The events we run with him are amazing because a lot of people don't not people that have ever heard of emotion, intelligence, they haven't. And I think that they leave a lot of the sessions they come. They come because they want to meet, like, like minor people and particularly um, particularly from the hr staff, and they they go away just in their own head in a good way in terms of thinking so deeply, and I've come away from those sessions like emotionally drained from it, but just so much more aware of of why and who I am and why I do things. And I think, yeah, it just makes.
Speaker 3:when you said that it makes perfect sense, it was paul, so it's uh yeah, I think the more I do, uh, in terms of coaching and I'm actually okay with this, I've made peace with it um, the less I feel I know myself. Yeah, weirdly, but I think that's the way it should be.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know manufacturing has, um, in many institutions still got a problem with not enough good leaders, not enough people wanting to manage and previously, for years gone by, someone has been brought in as an engineer into a room You're a good engineer, so you must be a good manager. Here you go, and that has enabled really poor leadership. I'm now starting to see that flip with better training and awareness. Is that a journey that Expanded Metals have been on or are on to try and tackle that sector issue?
Speaker 3:I would say yeah, I'd say, even before I joined, it was very much. If you had that technical capability, you were promoted. And we certainly had a lot of that in the business when I first joined People who would actually stand to you first and say, I don't really care about the people, I'm just telling you this is how you do it because I know best, or that's what the book says, et cetera, et cetera. So I call it the command and control kind of approach Very hierarchical, very tell-do. That was definitely there, I would say.
Speaker 3:Leading through the middle to the late 2010s, we were probably we were growing for sure becoming a bit more kind of globally aware that we needed to be different, the leadership style needed to change. Um, I would say we became a bit more collaborative. Uh, we went through a lot of change in terms of the senior leadership team, which um can have an influence on the business, and that shape really became a lot more. Let's get around the table, let's develop people's skills and let's start looking for the right resource. So that wasn't necessarily let's, you know, like kind of go out and get rid of everybody.
Speaker 3:We didn't do that, but we started looking for round, all round, peg, square, hold, square peg, which we didn't have for a long time, and I'd say along that journey we started looking at continuous improvement and that became the key driver right up until well today and beyond, but up until the COVID years I'd say CI was probably the biggest influence in our culture and then COVID happened and I think the world changed on its axis for a positive. On this occasion, that's's because I feel like we look at diversity in a lot more ways than diversity used to be just let's bring somebody different into a business. But actually now it's let's diversify our processes, let's diversify the things that we look to in terms of technology, let's diversify our people, but not just necessarily hire a female or hire somebody from a different ethnic background. It's actually let's just diversify with our way of thinking yeah, I completely agree.
Speaker 2:I think it used to be a tick box exercise because it's something they felt they they need to do, rather than they saw, understood and saw the benefits from having a diverse workplace, like you say. Where would that be? Ethnicity, gender, or just the, the cultural, you know, authenticity, I guess, within it. Yeah, you've obviously gone for that journey. What you mentioned Kobe Kobe was a time where was a turning point for a lot of people. Would that be businesses or that be them personally? What was that like for you? Was that? Was that something integral to you, that sort of change, or did it change a lot? Because manufacturing, you know, ran and kept running for that time?
Speaker 3:it did. Uh, we kept running, actually, uh, we did. We did have some, uh, furloughed staff, um, and it created a bunch of challenges, uh, where we'd had to naturally take some people out the business for a period of time and who was left had to deck in and do everything. And it was tough initially. But what was fabulous by the end of it is we as a company. We had to find those sustainable practices, so things that we could just do differently, and then carried them on.
Speaker 3:And when we were bringing people back into the workplace, we weren't saying, yeah, just do it the way you always did it before you were off for a couple of months. We were saying do you know what? What we've got a new way of doing it now. Um, because we had to, and that means you now get time to go and do something else or to retrain and become something else. That's what covid did for us as a business. It allowed us that breathing space to say, yep, I'm going to do that differently, better, and return it, and I'm going to get you the breathing space to do something for you and something for the business that's just a bit more developed and improved.
Speaker 3:It was actually a tough time that got us some good practices yeah yeah, I can't say everything about COVID in a business sphere was necessarily bad. It really honed something in for me as well, and it's the idea of hybrid thinking came of COVID and I know everybody's now going to go. Here we are, we're talking about hybrid homeworking and office working. I'm not that's just one small element. I'm talking about hybrid approach to everything that you do. So one of my ultimate goals moving forward I'm sure we'd get there as a question is to hybrid this business.
Speaker 3:So we're no longer talking about a manufacturing operative or we're no longer talking about a technician or a toolmaker. Why can't we hybrid all of those roles and multi-skill everybody? Because, if I think about my journey, that's why I'm successful, because I went through the quality, the safety, the environment. I went and done production management in this business and that's put me in a position now that goes. Do you know what I'd get? Challenges, I understand them and I know where we're going and how to help us all get there. I want that for everybody Hybrid thinking.
Speaker 2:You know what? There's no coincidence that some of the best businesses in the world have that approach. You look at Siemens. There's a lot of companies where people don't leave and you see they've been there for 20 years and they've worked in every different department, particularly the first few years, to get an idea of if they enjoy that, because it's the opposite. Isn't it to just stay as you are for 15 years? Maybe progress a little bit, but you don't. You need that exposure. You know you've had exposure, so many different disciplines within this business, but you now understand their pains and you can help them in that sense and I imagine for you it's easier to build up a rapport or get respect because you've been in their shoes in a lot of situations.
Speaker 3:It certainly helps. It's funny, actually, the narrative has probably changed a couple of years ago and don't say it to me because it's that kind of environment that's still you, just a little know-it-all, because every time they mentioned something I didn't know, I'd run off and I'd read about it and then I wouldn't come in the next day and just be kind of quiet. I'd be like I've read that book or I've read that internet article. But it's almost changed from that now. If I think about this morning leading into lunchtime, one of the most heartening things was being led down to that machine so that I could see it hand in hand with them. It was no longer like you're a know-it-all, it was like oh, let me walk you through it, because I know you're going to understand what the pain is and what we're going to have to do and you're going to be part of that decision. That's such a shift on where we were even 10 months ago. Um, it just really speaks to, I think, my change of credibility personally, 100?
Speaker 2:how do? How do we get to a stage because the hybrid I completely agree with you because it solves a lot of problems as well in manufacturing. Manufacturing is, as we know, has a big skill shortage. It has had for a while but it's really shown itself now and I think we'll only get worse because you know there's not still not enough good people coming through. So for me to help solve one of those problems that we can help, but it's healable, how are you starting to do that? And expanded metal, and I guess what can people learn from your sort of mindset there?
Speaker 3:So we are working towards some hybrid roles on site, but we need to take that external as well. So some of the guys have put their hands up and said I do this but I want to do this um. As you do know, it's hard to recruit um and backfill some of those positions. So rather than saying I'm taking you out on fit wholly, we're saying we'll either 50 50 hours or you'll train in a particular way or on a particular project and it's on site. It's almost seeping people in bit by bit to say you'll either be on that project or you'll be doing that number of hours and you'll have that learning program and then after a little while, so a couple of months in, we're looking at the training side of it then.
Speaker 3:So what can we do internally? Because we are so niche, a lot of what we train has to come from one of the on-site resources, which is great to keep everybody involved. But then the softer skills, or the project management skills or something like that, do need to come from the external. And I think it's important to give both of those commitments. We're going to give you the on-site, I'm going to give you the external, and then the third stage is to try and find that mentor, and that mentor doesn't have to be a senior, it can just be somebody that's your colleague. It has to be the right person with the right knowledge and, importantly, we make it very clear that your mentor might change. So it's almost stealing the model of an apprenticeship and bringing it internal so that we can hybrid those approaches. But where I need to move external is I need to take that to a recruitment sphere.
Speaker 3:Um, next, because, if I think about it, how does a recruiter now plug my gaps? Because my gap is no longer just a technician, my gaps are no longer just a toolmaker. I'm almost creating the problem outside the business longer term and it will impact us, because I think this is the only way to remain competitive, attractive and start infusing people to really want to come back to manufacturing. So the second element is and it's a 2026 goal is to try and get out there more, not necessarily networking at the events that I would attend now, but maybe in the learning areas. So the colleges, the skills are there. You don't have to think about manufacturing like it was when the trams were running and the horses and carts were going, because that's the perception come along, come, join, even come and do a week with us and see what a new position looks like.
Speaker 2:I was literally about to say that the way to build that is community. You have a community internally, but you have an external community because I still think there's so many missed opportunities where companies do amazing things inside those doors but the local schools, colleges, parents don't know what they do and ultimately a lot of decision-making is done by parents when people are young to influence, because not many young people know what they want to do. I work on a board of a couple of schools and there's such a big lack of awareness between manufacturing and what it actually is and what you can do. People just think it's it always has to be a, a you're inside a machine, all the young dirty and those roles do exist and that's great, but not all roles are like that.
Speaker 2:You know, there's all sorts of all sorts of opportunities with them, isn't it? It's, it's amazing, amazing, absolutely.
Speaker 3:I mean, and you've got to, um, almost take the opportunities when you get them. So I was, of course, over in STEM in Middlesbrough and two girls in the lavatory, whilst I was washing my hands, actually said you work in manufacturing, miss. I got called miss, can you believe I'm?
Speaker 1:injured and I said well, I do yeah.
Speaker 3:And I said, well, I do yeah. Uh, she said, but you've got nails. That was a very silly kind of point to have made, but I get it.
Speaker 3:You know you don't look at an industry like ours and think there'll be a female that's active on the shop floor who you know might like to put lashes and nails on. Why would you put those two things together? But we've got that diversity seeping into our business, uh, quite successfully. So I think we just need to get out there that you don't have to think about binning overalls necessarily, um, or getting head to toe dirty every day. There are other options 100.
Speaker 2:I. I completely agree and more people need to think this way, because it is a problem that's only going to get worse if we keep doing the same things and trying to get the same people. And I see that day day in, day out, and we're now seeing the supply and demand issue where people can demand crazy salaries and crazy rates because they know they can. So I know, I, I think what you're trying to do then makes perfect sense and you, you bring people into the industry then and you train them, so that's only a good thing for for the industry in the community. Would you I mean practically then as well, would you use the levy for that? Would you be internal training, what? What would the what, how? Would you help to do that as well, because there's so lack of understanding around that training piece, I think, for a lot of companies yeah.
Speaker 3:So to use the levy you have to have a particular turnover um, but I would say, even without the levy, it's doable. Um, just maybe, uh, when you're thinking about your budgeting, stretch it out a little bit more. Um. Everybody I speak to thinks well, I can't afford to bring in 20 apprentices, you don't need to bring in 20. Bring in one and three months later bring in another and you can do the staggering that way.
Speaker 3:Um, there's those options and if you've got the levy available, great um, it comes from that fund. It's 95 funded um. But don't be constrained by not having that. There are absolutely other options. Um, you can look at um, the I can't think of the name, but off the top of my head, this is a terrible sign of my age. Actually, she was right to call me this um.
Speaker 3:There's a way you can bring people in, uh, where they do um like one day a week, as opposed to the four days with even one at the college. There's the flip verse of that. Um, I bring in people on work experience for a week, um, and we agree either the pay structure or the reward structure based on that, and then we try and kind of invite people off the back of that. That's how I've just got the most recent apprentice. Actually, guy came in for a week's work and then asked us for a job at the end of it because we'd managed to give him the kind of journey that he'd be on. So there's lots of different ways you can do it, and it isn't necessary just having to go and stand at a stand in a college and recruit. Either. There's I promise there's a thousand different ways it's.
Speaker 2:It's amazing to see that not only the journey you've been on, but journey that the business has been on since you've been there, and obviously a massive integral part of that, because and this is why I want to do the podcast, just in general, and because companies need to learn from what other companies are doing because it's okay to change, it's okay to try and push forward, because we've all got issues, we've all got problems and it's a very, very difficult industry to work out, probably not as hard as it ever has been right now because of financial constraints and budgets and all this type of stuff. Which brings me on to, I guess, a couple of quickfire questions, if that's okay, but, um, one of them would be, which links into a little bit what we said but if you had a magic wand and you could, um, change manufacturing for the better, what would it be? Anything at all?
Speaker 3:uh, open up the open up the attitude to diversity. It has to change. We have to bring in something more than um, that old-fashioned perspective of you must be a male, you must be um from a particular industry, you must have a particular set of skills. Actually, I trained in law and I worked in sales, and neither of those are the things that I use on a day-to-day basis I say this is quick five, never quick five, because I always want to sort of unplug.
Speaker 2:So it's because I agree with you and it's interesting. But how, what? The first steps to do that? Because I completely agree and this sort of stuff is important to talk about and there'll be a lot of people agreeing with that going. I agree, but I've got leaders who don't and it's difficult, you know, I'm just by myself. What would be the first thing if you were into new business you would start to do to try to sort of solve this problem?
Speaker 3:Actually, I think you answered the question and it's wholly right community.
Speaker 2:Build the community from day one and from the ground up.
Speaker 3:Yeah, nice best manager you've ever had and why you can't say phil, I can, but I will.
Speaker 2:You can't now, you're not allowed to so just um, I mean to embarrass him.
Speaker 3:Uh, he's certainly in the mix. Um, it was, uh, a chap. So I did a spell in a call center, which is a brutal environment if you've never spent any time in one. Um, and it was the senior sales manager in the call center, a chap called david hill. Uh, he almost taught me that it was okay to to be myself. Um, he said, and he said one key thing. I've never forgotten it. He said to me stop asking for permission to be you. There's only one you. So just be it, own it, don't apologize. But I've, you know, have the integrity not to have to apologize, but it's essentially don't ask for permission to be yourself love that.
Speaker 2:It's amazing how things like that just stick with you, you think about, on you yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think about a lot of learns from him. Actually really gregarious.
Speaker 2:It was an outbound center, really fast-paced sales environment, um, but he almost had a sense of calm if you've, I think if you worked in a very hard out outbound call center or hospitality, two very different industries, two very difficult worlds to work in, it's a great, but it's a great grounding, isn't it, for future roles.
Speaker 3:Oh, wow, I wouldn't change it for a minute At the time. I think I would have given it back several times. But I look back now and I think, yeah, you contributed to who I am today, for sure.
Speaker 2:Any books, audio books, actual books or podcasts, anything you've ever read or listened to which has helped you or you'd recommend, would you say.
Speaker 3:So probably the one that I'm reading at the moment I really like is the Culture Map. I've gone back to it several times and it focuses on telling you, um that if you're from, um, this country, you like to be communicated this way. For example, if you're from this country, it might be this way, but actually if you take the countries out of it, it allows you to apply that to anything in life. I can put that to a particular team and then say, ah, I can see that you like direct. You are not a fan of direct, but you do like an anecdote, you like a story. This particular person might need five minutes on a morning to warm up to you. So I applied the principles of the culture map by taking the countries out and putting the scenario in. Really a fan of that one at the moment.
Speaker 2:I like that. I don't know that one. So a good recommendation, and this is a great question for you, because I think it fits so well with what we spoke about. If you could give a, give yourself advice 10-15 years ago, knowing what you are now and who you are now because you've gone through such a journey, what would it be?
Speaker 3:it's a bit of advice about how to handle challenges. Actually see them as motivation. Um, a challenge should be the fuel. It shouldn't be the thing that breaks you. It shouldn't be the barrier. It shouldn't be the discouragement.
Speaker 2:So use challenges as fuel of that excellent and and just just preview what's the the next sort of 12 to 18 months is looking like for Expander Metal. What's on the horizon?
Speaker 3:So we're in an exciting position. Actually, we are trying to diversify our portfolio, as a lot of businesses would do, and we're looking specifically to grow our architectural offerings, our security offerings in particular, and then really solidify what we do in the filtration spheres. So we've got some really key parts of our industry that we want to grow and develop into Lots of plans around that, and that includes some great investment. So we are part of a great group, the Mize Group family-owned, but they really believe in us as a business um and investing heavily in all aspects. So we've got the opportunity to develop in machinery and processes in new uh structure, and we're seeing a lot of that happening now and over the next 18 months. We've got some key milestones. How that translates to what I want to do is similar. Really, I want to drive through uh our people through um new culture, use the digital and automation and really um have us all funnel into um those industries. Really, in particular, I'm very excited about the architectural one personally excellent, it's exciting.
Speaker 2:So I just want to thank you for this, because it's been a it's been a really powerful podcast, this, and I kind of I hoped and knew it would be, but it was.
Speaker 2:And I think my takeaway, which I'm sure will be the same for everyone else, is you've you've helped me, I'm sure, about people to make it okay to be be yourself, because it's a it's a lonely pace place being leader, and particularly in difficult times, and I think there's always that pressure to be a certain way and and act a certain way.
Speaker 2:But actually you've got to be true to yourself and I thought that, along with how much do I reflect when you went into the specifics there in terms of you think about previous situations and how you could have acted and what you did and actually how you felt, you know, I think that was the big one for me, the big takeaway, that how much do I really think about how do I feel in the moment and why do I feel that in the moment, so I could do something differently.
Speaker 2:So I think this episode will really help people just understand why they do what they do and you know what's the purpose and are they helping people and are they being true to themselves? Along with so many takeaways about just the process side, the cultural side of the businesses, this is the time for me where companies need to be looking so closely at their culture to make sure their attention is much more important than recruitment. So you get your attention right, then recruitment should take care of themselves, and I love your thoughts behind the hybrid approach to the internal hiring piece. So thanks, joe, this has been been great.
Speaker 3:Massively, massively appreciate it right, um, can I just add one bit that of course it's an ethos to me, um, and it's to almost. People always say I have an open door policy. I don't mean that. I mean leave your door open. Um, I think we all as leaders need to say sometimes we have to be the first, sometimes we have to make the most difficult decision or kind of step where we don't want to, but leave your door open for somebody else to be able to do that. Don't pull it up after you and shut that door and say I've made the decision, it's all done, or you know I'm the first but I'll be the last. Please think about leaving that door open and letting somebody else come through and, you know, succeeding or making that mistake and then helping them again. That's the key for me.
Speaker 2:Love that Fantastic Reggie Finneas. Thank you very much. That was great, really really good. I'll just stop there.