Manufacturing Leaders

4 - Day Week Webinar

• Mark Bracknall • Season 12 • Episode 4

Share episode

Send us a text

In this episode, we share the real story of how a 4-day working week moved from concept to reality across multiple manufacturing sites. You’ll hear how we designed and trialled the shift with people-first thinking, data-driven decisions, and flexibility at the core. We cover everything from early union conversations to contract changes, phased rollouts, and how we managed customer expectations and KPIs.

Learn how we tackled fairness across roles and shifts, made overtime a tool—not a crutch—and what we’d do differently if starting again. If you're serious about sustainable change and curious how a 4-day week can actually work in complex, operational environments—this one's for you.

In this episode, we cover:

  • How we designed trials, managed union concerns, and kept flexibility central
  • The KPIs that mattered most: productivity, absence, and retention
  • Balancing customer cover, Friday escalations, and shift fairness
  • Lessons learned, what we’d change, and why it still works

Feel free to share this with the powers that be considering a four-day week.

Please subscribe to the channel for more content! Theo James are a Manufacturing & Engineering Recruiter based in the North East, helping Manufacturing and Engineering firms grow across the UK. Please call us on 0191 5111 298

SPEAKER_01:

Excellent. We'll uh we shall kick off. Um so look, um a massive warm welcome today to uh to our four-day week webinar. Um quite a few people have asked me to to do this for well, probably for the last sort of six, seven months. Um we moved to uh a four-day week about 15, 16 months ago, and it's been uh it's been a massive success. Um not easy to do, but without doubt, um a real success for us. But we are uh a recruitment firm, so very, very different to traditional manufacturing. It's a very different um thing to do within manufacturing. So really keen today to hear from people who have done it and and the three kind people have offered to uh to come on here and answer questions are exactly that. So I'm gonna um I've got some questions I will ask and want to ask, and I'll sort of do that individually after introductions. Um, but please um make sure you put your questions in the comment section because I'm gonna leave some time towards the end to uh to answer those questions. Hopefully some of those will potentially have come up, but please, as you go in, feel free to put them in a box and also feel free to uh say if there's someone specific you want to uh um answer that question. We have two people from uh human resources and Nigel from Operations. So some different viewpoints and some different businesses as well. Um we'll definitely get away. Uh it'll be 45 minutes and 60 minutes, definitely will be no longer than an hour. Um it is recorded. So if you are here live, welcome. Thank you very much. If you are listening as well, later date, um, hope you enjoy. So just in a way of introductions, my name is Mark Bragnall. Um, I am uh owner and director of Theo James Recruitment. So we are uh 10-year-old uh manufacturing engineering specialist based in Durham, um, anywhere from blue collar um semi-skilled right the way up to C suite level exec. Um and I've had the uh the joy of working with uh all three of my guests during the sort of tenure here, which uh which has been very enjoyable. So um if you wouldn't mind doing brief introductions, Nigel, I'll come to you first if that's okay, mate. If you wouldn't mind just um letting everyone know um who you are, um the business you work for, what a business does, and I guess your role in the business, if that's okay. Uh Nigel Freeman.

SPEAKER_02:

Um I currently work for Owen Hyber Group, used to be known as Elders, um, building uh leisure vehicles for camper band motorhomes and caravans, um, predominantly all into the UK market, although about 8% of it goes uh abroad. Um my background um has been quite diverse. I spent 25 years at Thorn Lightning, um, a number of roles there, um, and then uh branched out into electronic building materials, and then into that's a vehicle market. Thank you, mate. Over to you, Andy.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, so my name is Andy Scott. I'm the head of HR here at Dark M Engineering. Dark M, we long history, circa 70 years old. We had our 70th birthday last year, predominantly an aerospace business, and within aerospace um thermal installation products um is is our sort of mainstream product range. Um we also work in the nuclear industry, so we've got uh a large team down on the HPC site down in Somerset working on thermal insulation products and and other parts of the project down on Hintley, and we've got a site in Gloucester as well, um, which again serves the aerospace market. Smaller markets we serve, um, a little bit of motorsport, um bit of government work, a bit of defence, but but by and large we're an aerospace business.

SPEAKER_01:

Thank you, mate.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, so my name's Lianne. I'm the HR manager for Ford Aerospace. Um, we specialise in making um components and precision parts for obviously the aerospace sector as well as some commercial sectors work with the legs of GCB uh caterpillar, etc. So yeah, I've been here just over two years. Uh experience quite a lot of things. Obviously, one of the main things I look after is obviously workplace culture um and four-day week goals under that.

SPEAKER_01:

Thank you very much. I'm really keen to uh to uh to understand from all of you in terms of how that works in your very different types of business. Um Nice, if you don't mind me coming to you first, because curious because you have you've now worked for two businesses which have um gone to four-day week, which in itself is quite interesting because I do see a trend where people may get used to that four-day week and ensure that their next role has that same sort of benefit, which is a topic in itself. Um the business you came from before, uh BTS, you were instrumental and helped step that up, which is very interesting. So, and you were probably one of the first of its kind. I can't recall anyone else in that space that that was doing that at the time. What were the the main sort of reasons for you initially sort of taking on that decision? Because it's a it's a big decision to do.

SPEAKER_02:

Um, so fortunately for BATS to be given quite a wide uh role. Um BTS had uh uh uh a challenge in regards to um uh uh trying to keep hold of uh of the workforce. They do facades and fabrication of of panels for lots of different um buildings, but the northeast, and I didn't realise that at the time until I got there, is they call it Cladding Valley. Um for the UK, there's there's a mass amount of of uh businesses all doing a very similar thing. And you would tend to get the um the team members who would uh move from uh business to business for an extra 10 pence an hour. Uh and that that that is really for me not the right thing that I wanted from the teams that we had. So we we went on a journey of uh changing and improving the culture. And one of those what one of those arms was how do we get retention within the the business of the of the people, um, and that would minimize all the additional cost of retraining, all the quality issues you get and the normal things that you see in operations. Um I'd been made aware of the the four-day week from from uh uh uh uh a business in in Durham, uh, which was Atom Bank. My my daughter had uh was working there, and I'd seen the the fantastic impact it had on her when they'd introduced this four-day week, how work life balance had uh had improved, um, and they were generating um uh a great culture in regards to to the openness, transparency, and all the other things that that they were doing. So I thought it would be good. Uh a good thing to went back on it and um we created uh what we call a forum, which was like World's Council, and we got them involved and then reached out to a number of different businesses that were further down the journey on four-day weeks than than we were. We've done quite a bit of research and then went to speak to them about how they were doing it, the pitfalls, um, but trying to understand really um what was the main reason that we we we were we were doing this for, um, to ensure that whatever we did would would be successful.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, thank you, mate. And and similar question, well, same question we like to the iron that's okay in terms of um different sort of business, but again, why did you embark on that? A big decision.

SPEAKER_03:

Um, so it was a couple of factors actually. Um one of the things like Nigel had mentioned was uh work-life balance, um, looking at how we can kind of stand out from the crowd, make it uh a happier, more positive place to be. Um the other thing that had another factor to it was um the energy crisis. So it was actually in 2022. Um so they actually put it out to the works council and said, is there any suggestions of what we could kind of do? Um and it was actually really well received, uh, the four-day working week. Um, and you know, like like a lot of places, um, it it really helps for you know attracting and retaining uh talent.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, massive. And and that's the benefit we've seen at uh Wimbussen, which it which is nice the fact that both of you, you know, your decision both of you is because of the people side, not necessarily productivity or anything else. Um was it similar to you, Andy? I know it's a very different situation there, and obviously um with the union piece that adds an element of depth as well. So what what was that like for Dark M?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I um quite a bit of that at all. So ours was absolutely a people piece. Um Dark M. So if if we spit if we stick with Stillington, the the North East facility, which is our biggest facility for for a moment, um that was uh that was never a five-day week, anyway. It was four and a half. We we always worked seven till eleven on a um on a on a Friday, was typically the operational hours for the manufacturing facility, anyway. Um the people piece was was obviously the main driving point. I think lots of organizations um I think COVID changed it for a lot of people, whether you're in manufacturing, customer service, whatever you are, and and people's priorities changed. Um, you know, you hear that quite quite frequently, and and and people at Darkham are no different. Um so so the the main catalyst was doing something nice for our people, but it very quickly evolved into some of the other benefits that we've heard. And um bearing in mind that we our operational hours were only four hours on a on a Friday anyway. Um had a break into that, starting the machines up, closing them down, getting product where you need to be. How many of those four hours are you truly um are you truly effective? Um whereby if you extend your four days by them hours, actually are you being more productive as a business? So um there were a number of different strands to it, but but the the main driving force was um was uh was was was people. Um and and and yeah, you've mentioned our union piece. I don't know if you want to get into that now or a little bit further in the webinar, but but we have a true mixed bag at Dark M in terms of what our our flexible work and our four-day working week looks like, um, because that one size fits all approach, we we just couldn't find it. Um so so we we do have a mixed bag depending on you know the contract you want and the site that you work. Um but I yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, it means I mean that essentially we came from exactly that. We did a half day Friday, and uh the decision was how productive are those Fridays? You know, can we be more productive for those four days than we can over over five, which is our designing factor? So I think it's quite similar. A lot of manufacturing companies still have that, they have that half day Friday, which in itself is a benefit right now. Uh Nigel, if you're only asking, obviously, you know, BTS was a was a smaller company, a lot smaller than Owen Heimer, and Heimer are a big organization, employing a lot of people. Um, so I hear a lot that it's much easier to do with a small company, but impossible to do at a big company. What are the key differences that you've seen, would you say, moving, you know, going into an organization which is much bigger, um, who also now have an four-day week?

SPEAKER_02:

Uh I I would say the challenges are uh were very similar, just at a larger scale. Um, we still got to make sure that we cover the custom service part or part of it. So Monday to Thursday, the customers don't go away on a Friday. So we've got to ensure that we we cover that. Um so that the there was exactly the same operationally wise, the um the challenges. Um each company did slightly different because, as Andy said, there isn't one solution fits all. Um, some of the companies that we did research with made us aware of that to begin with. There is certain pitfalls that will impact everybody that they've got to be mind mindful of, such as how to calculate holidays, what to do with the bank holidays, cost or off days, flexible working. And but but in regards to to both businesses, um, it was done for very similar reasons. Um uh the work life balance of the the workforce, but also the the positive impact it has on the individual and the uh cost saving into the business.

SPEAKER_01:

Well what was the reaction like? Uh, because uh, you know, for for majority of people, I imagine they were they were very happy about it, and obviously it was people led. Was the elements of were there some people saying actually that might not work for me? Or you know, because it's it's not always one size fits all, is it? No, no, we had a we had a number of people in the BDS.

SPEAKER_02:

There was uh out of the 50, there was about five people that that it didn't fit their their their their lifestyle. So what we we we did was sat with them, uh great flexible working contract, so it fit around uh their lifestyle. Some of it actually fit quite well with the the the business in regards to there would be somebody there answering the phones if need be, or you know, you could get things done on a on a on on a Friday that that if they weren't there, we would we would have to work to work around. Um but those that that number of of people that was then about their uh individual circumstances and trying to make sure that we um didn't make them feel alienated and that they weren't part of the change, but that that we could cover their needs and it fit with the the needs of the business.

SPEAKER_01:

So thank you. Um Lianne, from uh from a HR perspective, um I imagine some headaches there as well in terms of you know changing working hours completely. You know, the contracts can come into that because there's a trial period when does that trial end? What's that been like to navigate? Have you uh been at the stage where you've changed contracts? And and if not, would you consider it? Because that's got a quite a popular HR esque question I've got.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. Um, so actually, when uh the initial change came in, it was over a six-month trial period. Um, so everyone was issued amendments to the contract as to sign. Um obviously now going forward, we have it in in all the current contracts. Um but I don't think from that perspective it's been it's been difficult, but stuck at the 37 and a half hours obviously into a compressed uh working week. So productive productivity-wise, I think actually we get more out of people for a lot longer, we do seven till five. Um I actually myself I find that I can get a lot done during that time because I'm on site. I can go and speak to people I need to, go to meetings, etc. Um so I think actually from a production point of view, um it's been it's been really helpful.

SPEAKER_01:

It's similar to tonight, I guess then. Um if there were anyone in the business, so let's say they had you know childcare arrangements or whatever they had, they couldn't make that work, but they want to stay in the business. Did you do you have to flex to their certain needs?

SPEAKER_03:

Uh yeah, and I mean a lot of that is actually managed by our team leaders. Um, you know, they'll come to me for for some advice, but overall we can be flexible uh where we need to be. From a customer sales point of view, um, we actually have the customer services team, they work from home on a Friday. So alternate um every week for those. Um, same with the sales engineers. Um, one of those works one Friday morning out of um four weeks. So it is uh there are some challenges, but they're not they're not difficult to overcome if you go into it with an open mind.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and that's it. I think that you know that that is modern day flex proper flexibility at its best to some extent. Is that and when you are recruiting us for new people, are you now looking for people who the four-day week fits because it's a benefit, or will you still look for people who actually want to work there but they can't quite make that happen? What's that mindset? Because we're we're sometimes stuck in that a little bit now.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, but do you know we don't actually come across that as we mentioned a four-day working week? Everyone kind of jumped. I mean, I go to loads of career space and speak to, you know, for our apprenticeship program. Um, and that seems to be one of the things that the most excited about that's a four-day working week. Um, so yeah, I don't think we'll have that stumbling block. Obviously, again, if if we did, um, that would be something that we'd navigate um internally with with the candidate.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, it's uh I mean if from from our point of view, it we did exactly the same. We had certain people didn't work for them and we flexed them and we just you know they did the normal hours and it worked worked absolutely fine. There were some benefits actually to the business side on that. You know, you'd mention it there yourself, Nigel. You've got you've got some someone there for a contingency plan. We had to be careful they weren't always that contingent plan, but you know, that was just learning that. Um, but actually now when we hire, we hire people who want a four-day week as a benefit because that's how we we want to do moving forward.

SPEAKER_03:

I think when they worked a five day week, I mean, myself included, you know, I went from working five days a week and I was like, how's this gonna work? And do you know the benefit you get from not working a five day? Um it's immense, like it's an extra DT weekend, you can get so much more done. I've got two children, it helps me. Um, so if you know, from a pupil perspective, it really works.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Um, Andy, from a from a multi-site point of view, because you have a site in Gloucester as well, um, and I'm right and say you've got a slightly different range in there. How does that work? And and actually in particular, how does that work with the senior team who might who might need you know to work between or interact between the two um sites?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, of course, yeah. And I think one of the big things that that that we found, and and if anybody who's interested has the same concern that we had, hopefully I can help you with that, with what I'm about to say. Is we we, and I know Nigel touched on it, that one size fits all approach, even within our business, we just could not find. And all and it became a question of do we do it at all because we can't find something that suits everybody. Um, well, actually, yes, we did, and we had to make different arrangements depending on geographical location being one and union agreement and non-union agreement being another, and and job types. So, so you know it truly is a mixed bag of our arrangements, but but the multi-side, um, Gloucester was far easier. So, in Gloucester, we um it is a true four-day working week, and that the facility is completely closed on a Friday, unless there's an overtime requirement, in which case it's just treated as an overtime day, like a Saturday and Sunday it will be treated. Um whereas Stillington you've you've got various different mixed bags. In terms of a senior leadership team, yeah, I again, you know, you it's natural to come up with these concerns, isn't it? When when when you're at the when you you know, we're now well into this process and you know we've come quite accustomed to how it works and the nuances around it, you know, but but we've done that through the benefit of trials, like Lianne said, and and and learning as we go. We didn't have that benefit at the start. Um, and that was a concern for leadership, myself included. Um, but but you you do adapt, and and now as a leadership team, how do we adapt? Um, you know, we we we get as much as we can done on the on that Monday to Thursday because, like Lianne says, people tend to behave for longer hours. So we're not losing any time. People are still here for 37 hours or or whatever their working hours would have been prior to the arrangements. So we're not losing any time. Um, it's just changing your mindset to get you know those meetings and those. But look, you know, this is a benefit that we, you know, like Lianne said, I see this as a benefit. I myself have two children as well, and and and and see that as a benefit. So to that end, if the business needs me on a Friday at a jump on a Teams call or pick up the phone or or you know, come into work if necessary, you know, you would find that goodwill normally takes precedence there. We understand the the benefit we have, not many people enjoy that benefit. Um on the odd occasion that that you're needed in the business for for something. You know, we haven't come across the answer being no. You know, it's it's uh look, it's a one-off, we'd have this huge benefit, we don't mind giving back on this occasion. Um, and that's typically what what we've found.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, it's uh I mean actually sort of sort of answer about, I'll do some of the questions sort of live as I see them, but someone put um this is something we're considering. Um Simon mentioned this. Um as Dark and we company work short Fridays. One issue we are concerned about is internal perception of group management of the UK site. We are one of six global sites and we'll be the first to move to four days. We perceive this as a potential political risk rather than a practical one. Is this something that speakers considered? And if so, how was that managed? Is that something you sort of did consider at all? I mean, you've half mentioned, you've sort of discussed it to some extent, but was that a consideration?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I mean a huge one. And if I compare us to Hinckley for a second, so our our operation on Hinckley that that's uh a 10-on-4 off site that that causes where it's geographically based and the workload that they do at a 10-on-four off. And you know, as soon as you start to see four-on-three off at at Stillington, you're immediately creating a divide there. Um did it create a political risk? 100%. Um what we had to do there was um you know identify other incentives for the people who who, you know, maybe maybe couldn't get that, um maybe couldn't get that four-day working week. So at least they they got something. So right, a four-day week week we can't do that there. And then there's people within our our Stillington and and business as well that this applies to. You know, for example, because of the nature of the work, we have 24-7 security. You know, we've got other bits and pieces of the operation where this just wouldn't work. So, all right, regrettably, there's this four-day week can't apply, then you know, your role just doesn't owe to that that benefit. However, you know, in in recognition that the other people are getting a benefit that you aren't. So, so so the you know, and there's lots of things we did there that I'll not get into, but I'm happy to take offline. I think it was Simon who who asked that question. But but what I'm getting at is we we had that risk and we foresaw those problems. Um, the way we counteracted it was before announcing the four-day week, almost trying to live that situation and think, right, we can't give it to this person. What can we do in its place? So that at least there's there's there's some new benefits being rolled out to everybody. Um and and look, we haven't had any pushback um to date. We we we we've had no pushback at all from you know employees claiming that that it's unfair to them because of the nature of their role. We we we just haven't had that.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, no, interesting. It's uh thank you. That helps. And and Nigel, this this one's to you. It's actually a similar question that um I was gonna ask, actually. So I'll ask this one uh specifically, because my question was gonna be the it was twofold, I guess. Um what initially did you look for in terms of you know what what KPIs and and what triggers were you looking for specifically for is this working or is this not? Because obviously there's one thing in terms of the the happiness and morale of people, but also it's the it's the business side, it's the operations piece in terms of you know, is is it working, what the KPI is showing? So I'd be keen to know that. And and just to build on that, um, is a question from Tom Clark here, who um said from a manufacturing perspective, um my worry perhaps a little pessimistic, more around internal performance management, is that people might pace themselves to fill the longer days rather than sustain the same level of output. Have you had the have you found this has affected productivity in practice? A really good question. So if you mind passing that to um to you now, that would be great, please.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, so the the the the the main areas of um uh well the giving KPIs that we looked at initially was to do with um how many people that we we were losing per month, so our our retention or our excellent profile. We would we were doing a lot of work on productivity. Um so at BTS they were they were working a 40-hour week. Um uh I had the plan of the four-day week and didn't want to do four tens because I thought that would wait way too long. So I wanted to try and get that down to 37 hours a week. So we were very clear with the the tens that we had there for us to be able to do that. That had to be paid for somehow within the business. Um, and then we went on a started a journey of of improvement and uh uh uh and productivity improvement was one of the things that we had in there. And before we could do that, we had to get to a certain percentage point, which which offset the the additional uh or the reduction in the working week. That had a benefit in regards to um everybody got an 8.1% hourly payer award and thought it was fantastic. It weren't really costing the business any more money because we'd been allowed to do that because of the uh productivity improvement, but that helped with the retention. They then got the um confidence that uh we could continue to improve, but we were very clear that the metrics were um uh productivity, uh customer service levels were still utmost. Um, so we had to do quite a lot of work with our customers. Of we may be working four days away, but performance is still manned, so we're not shut, so don't think that that um uh whether we're we're not working. Um we looked at the absence levels and retention levels. What we saw was initially when we put the four-day week in, we saw a great improvement in in all four of the KPIs. What we then did see after around about six weeks was that the productivity started to drop off. The worry for me was that we were expecting too much from people working the longer hours. Um how we approached that was that we were really open and transparent with the numbers. We were really open and transparent with if this continues, then we're gonna have to look at uh the end of the trial period of going back to the five-day week unless we get the numbers back on track. And then what we saw was that once everybody realized that that it wasn't going to go away and that that with the likelihood is that we could we would pull it, we start to see that productivity ratio go back to where we wanted to be. One of the reasons I still believe that of that is that people were starting to see the benefit of them not coming in on a Friday. So people were saving uh£380 a year on fuel. They were saving Fridays having to look for childcare. Uh, a lot of the the guys were managing to get the list of jobs that the wives had uh um given them during the week, get done on a Friday so they could go and still the football and play golf Saturday and Sunday. So it was having a positive impact in regards to not only their work-life balance, but how they were they were then interacting and the positive impact on the families. And they didn't want to lose that. They felt that they were quite protective. Um, they would also come in, like Andy said, uh at short notice if we needed something out urgent for a Friday. So we still had that agility within the in the in the in the marketplace if needed. Um, but we would go on a sort of a rotor if if that looked like it was going to be something that was constantly uh uh uh happening, and they would then know that every fourth week that that could be my week that I might have to come in on Friday for all the time. So that that they're the main KPIs that that we'd focused on, but but it was very important that we were transparent and clear with all the inputs to them, and then what would happen if if things didn't get to where they needed to be.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, that's uh like you said that the key there is that communication transparency piece, isn't it? And um because it you know essentially I I kind of felt because that ours went exactly the same. I kind of felt am I dangling a carrot too much here, and I almost threatened to take it back initially, but it it it you know it is a benefit, but it has to benefit. We said right at the start, it's gonna benefit us, it's gotta benefit you. And if if one of those doesn't work, we pull it. It has to be both. So we saw exactly the same, we saw a massive spike, and then they got a bit sort of come with our things that complacency setting and and this excitement, and then we just got some real figures and stats, and then we've we've now managed to go back up and stay there. So it's interesting we were exactly the same in that sense. Um, I am going to try and answer some of these uh talk about some of these questions live instead of mine because it feels it feels better to do that. Um you've hard you've kind of answered a little bit anyway, Nigel, but I'll just stay with you for two seconds because Richard's asked um how your customers have responded. I know you mentioned there that um you know you communicated that with them. That is a fear for a lot of people. It's a fear that they will lose a competitive edge if their competitors down the road work five days and they work four. Um how how do you communicate that? So would you mind going to a little bit of detail how you did that and how you do that now? That's okay.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, so on the on um I can't tell you how they do it later because it's a different arm of the business on the commercial side. But at BDS, we um we uh made sure that our uh business development manager and sales guys went in and went through what we were doing with each one of the customers. So we wanted to give them the assurance that that we were we were open and we were open for business as normal, they wouldn't see any impact. Um their worries, so we listened to what their feedback was and then reviewed the feedback. Their worries were well, I don't see if I need something urgent on a Friday or a Saturday, one of them says something's not right and we've got a quality issue, you know, all of the normal day-to-day things that you would see Monday uh to Friday. What we had to give them was that the assurances that that if if any of that happened, we still had the support within the the organization. Um we also give them uh the email addresses and phone numbers of the of the senior leadership team, that if they weren't able to get hold of somebody on that Friday, that we would still be available for them to contact. We'd also done quite a bit of work um in the uh commercial uh office on monitoring the number of calls that we we took on a Friday. And it was frightening. The the the and I don't know whether it was because it was a construction trade and they're all in the pub at 12 o'clock. Uh however, uh it it it averaged around about seven calls per day and one call per day after one o'clock. So that that's all that we were taking in, which is not the most efficient use of the the the team's time where we could get more done during the Monday to Thursday. So we we delivered that information back to the customers, we give them the support mechanisms that we'd come up with. Um so we we worked with them. Some of them would still come back to, well, you know, you're not open on a Friday. That's not what we were saying. What we're saying is we'd work a four-day week. That four day week could be Monday to Thursday or could be Tuesday to Friday, so it's business as normal for us. And over a period of months, they they just accepted that and uh everything was fine.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, thank you, mate. Um Leanne, uh Andy, probably either of you if you've experienced this, because it'll depend if you have or you haven't, but for the the people or the the shifts used to do. Um you know, and you read that from Sen Strong because I asked a question there. If you know, if you have did any of the business work a seven-day week pattern beforehand? Because that's obviously quite a quite a big shift. Did either you move or did you have people working those shifts? Because that's quite a big transition, I imagine.

SPEAKER_00:

No, we we didn't have seven-day shift work and it was always four and a half days, typically days, um, as well. It was very rarely night shift. It would it our operating hours, we were quite fortunate for a traditional manufacturing business. The the operational hours did typically be um you know, 7 30 to a quarter past four was ordinarily our Monday to Thursday, and then um a short at the on a Friday. Um we no, the the only nuance we had was the uh the Hinckley point C, which is a 10 on four off rotation in line with our customer. And we just we we had to just accept that the this incentive couldn't be applied to that that pool of people. Um which we didn't get much much pushback because I'd say the vast majority travel quite some distance. I mean, some will fly from Aberdeen down to Bristol and and then then then get a coach on the site or whatever. So a 10 on four off actually works better for them anyway. Yeah um so to know we we we didn't come across I didn't personally experience that, but what we did do was we did have to exclude certain pools of people, and um that didn't come with the pushback that what we probably expected it to. So if if if other people on the call have got a similar concern, you know, we had that worry and it just didn't materialize.

SPEAKER_01:

Excellent. Um Leanne, from uh from HR perspective, what difference did you see in retention? Obviously, you've talked about the attraction peaks, but in terms of absenteeism, all the all the stuff that a typical HR uh officer would track, what what differences you see there? And did were you actually looking for certain KPIs based on that move as well?

SPEAKER_03:

Well, similar to Nigel, um, we've seen a decrease actually in uh sickness absence.

SPEAKER_01:

Um I think someone's on mute.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, we've got somebody's telephone call there.

SPEAKER_03:

We've seen a uh a decrease in sickness absence and productivity has gone up. Um we also find that because we work um Monday to Thursday, you get a lot of people who actually are more willing to come in on a Friday, you know, for overtime. Um it's not really cutting into their weekend as such. But just to touch on uh the holidays, I'd just seen a question on the holiday calculation, and I don't know whether you do it, uh any anyone does it differently. We calculate ours in hours. Um so we use um uh time in attendance system and calculate it in hours. Actually, people can take an hour off in the afternoon if they want to, or you know, it's not the traditional half day split. Um the slight downside of that is because that's off for three days, uh we kind of have to remember to send out kind of regular uh memos to say remember to take your holidays um because um obviously with them being off three days, um they're not they're not as um I didn't take in the holidays, but um the majority of people do. We actually then introduced a carryover as well, so carryover of three days um automatically at the end of the year. So there's loads of different things that we've done with the holidays. Um shifts as well. So we do we still do shifts, touching on your last question. Um we have three shift patterns. Um most people work at the day shift, which is seven to five. Some people work an early shift, um, but we also have a late shift as well. Um, so you know, sometimes for childcare reasons, it might be more preferable to work the late shift.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, absolutely. It's uh and that is an appreciation people look at. Um have you seen a difference in in sickness at all? Is that something that you've tried to have interest? Because you know, you'd hope people are more recovered, I guess, to some extent. Is that something you've seen?

SPEAKER_03:

Um our sickness absence, what our our target is set out of 2%. Um and it it can fluctuate obviously um depending on the time of year. Um we haven't seen a massive increase in sickness. But one of the other benefits that we did uh actually introduced was um medical leave. So if anyone's got any kind of doctor's appointments, well, doctor's appointments now because you can't get a doctor appointment um when you want one. Um so yeah, any hospital, doctors, kind of dental, that's all two hours uh paid leave. Um, and people take that up. So I think because people are kind of addressing a problem with the health early, it kind of negates the it takes out the the sickness absence at a later date being more long term.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, truth says because people might think it's harsh, but we we ask people and it's slightly different setup, so we we we reduced our contract. So we pay them the same. We we they now do a 36-hour week, we just pay them the same. And I think because we did that, we were comfortable with asking certain things, and and um you know we we now say that whenever possible isn't always you know, doctors, medical. If you can try and get them on a Friday, then we we ask them to. So it isn't always possible, but I was comfortable doing that because that has helped things when there's less people out for you know various reasons that money to Thursday. My mentality personally would be I want them to have a great life outside of work. I want to I've always wanted people to have a balance. I I hate people working on a night time on holidays. I'm I'm really against it, but uh you know for me it means people should come in and work hard that that money money to Thursday. So that's our sort of culture, but I can it it kind of obviously depends on what the the culture is. Um someone's asked if you're my lawyer, um you touched this before that any additional benefits for those who couldn't work a four-day week. Is anything specific at all? Or is it just general sort of flexibility that you give them? Is there anything sort of specific you do?

SPEAKER_00:

So is that end of May, yeah?

SPEAKER_01:

Um well Liano and so whoever wants to take it, if anyone's got anything.

SPEAKER_00:

I'm happy to because we found ourselves in that position to be honest. And and and look, it was around flexibility, so it was maybe operate things like a rotational basis, or you know, we didn't just put a four-day week in, we put flexible working in, so you know, with core hours and um, you know, staggering start and finish times, and um so so that really the vast majority of of basically it there was something for everybody now and now it wasn't always the same thing. And some people may choose not to work a four-day week, even if they can, for reasons that we've touched on previous, like childcare or travel arrangements or whatever it might be. Um but you but they might opt to take a different flexible benefit, like they might they might you know start earlier and leave later, or or to start earlier and leave earlier, or whatever that that agreement is. So it was about offering, it wasn't just one offering was our four-day week, it it formed part of a much wider flexible work and offering where we could um where we could provide it. So um uh basically we found ourselves in a position where where people could work the hours that suited them as long as the business needs were met. And and and by and large they are. I mean, yeah, do we get the odd frustration from time to time? Of course we do. I think we, you know, I'm not gonna sit here and say we we never see any frustrations at all. Yeah, we do, but they're isolated and we manage them. Um, you know, and we would never think right that that one frustration now means that we would consider reversing this decision. Um, we just manage that on a on a case-by-case basis.

SPEAKER_01:

It sounds like you've all just become much more flexible because because the change you made, then you're mentality-wise, there's just a a new degree of flexibility there that you're working with people instead of this is what you work and there's no way around it. Which for me is great to hear because that's the way I see you know the the world changing for the better. And I think as as young people come into this industry, I think they'll want that flexibility and it helps for childcare reasons and all sorts of other stuff. Um, Nigel, if you want me asking, uh if quite a few people have have have said they they won't do it, they wouldn't work for them because they're really concerned about the senior team. And if the senior team would end up picking up lots of additional work, is that something you've experienced and what would you say to people who have those fears?

SPEAKER_02:

Uh I've had I've seen no experience of that apart from maybe the odd phone call on a on a Friday if they haven't been able to get hold of somebody in in one of the the departments. What you actually see with the improvement in the productivity of each of the areas is they're actually they'll get through more of the work, which means you can then upskill them and let you know increase their level of authority and then can take on on more as long as it's part of the the plan that you've got the PDP with them. So I've seen absolutely no no um no members of the senior team on either sites here or uh another couple of sites that have helped get get this introduced in into um uh picked on uh the the senior leaders with the organization going to 24-7. Actually, the the opposite that they've got probably less to do. Excellent.

SPEAKER_01:

It's uh yeah, and and and I agree, but it I can that was uh that's a fear here quite a bit. To some extent, the senior people do tend to pick up more as nature of the beast about a job. So you know, you could argue that and I think I've seen this where they might still do something on a Friday, but they would normally work on a Wednesday night or Thursday night at Sounds tonight. So actually, they could be working less than a week and they might just you know do a couple of hours of additional. Um, in terms of the overtime piece, because I've I've I've heard some fear behind, well, we'll just end up you know spending more money on overtime now because Friday will become overtime. How have you navigated around that and have have you had to do so?

SPEAKER_02:

Uh yeah, so I'll I'll talk about BTS because that that was that was my daily. Yeah. At BTS, we had the agreement as we were putting it in that uh Friday would be the overtime shift if it's required. Um, but we also had agreement that the first um four hours of that overtime shift would be just at standard rate. Anything above that would then go to straight away the time and a half. Um knowing fine well that we didn't really want to be running overtime because I don't like overtime. It's uh there's a failure somewhere down the rest of the process if we if we haven't run overtime all the time. Uh so uh I want to give it, I wanted it to be there if we needed. It's a bit of a release valve, but it's it was something that that was not to be used unless it was uh you know really uh an impact to the customer. So from from that point of view, uh Fridays was the overtime. We could work Saturday and Sundays if need be. That was it was part of the contract. Where I am now, it's uh it's a little bit different. Um, in certain areas of the business, they will be on a road to work on Friday because um they may be uh a requirement that that um uh the delivery sort of such such as um uh they might be coming up to pick a fleet of vehicles, they're going abroad, they're gonna only come in on a Friday. We don't normally work on Friday, so they'll be on a road that that Friday would be uh uh their roster uh as overtime. So but that would just be the standard rates. So as we go back to I think I think we've all alluded to there's one that there's not one size fits all in in this. The good thing about us is if it's done in the right way and you understand the metrics, the inputs into what you're trying to do, it can actually add additionally additional flexibility into your into your in your workplace, but also you don't have to get a positive bounce on the engagement front. That's where I I've seen everywhere it's gone in that you have the positive impact on the engagement front with the people.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I I completely agree. It's been the best uh unsurprisingly, it's been the best change, the best well-received change we've ever made. We do an anonymous survey every year, and this was 10 out of 10 in terms of uh how do you rate it. So it's uh they do not want me to take this back. So I completely understand that. Um, it's a it's a huge part of it. But and okay, it's very, you know, that we we said at the start of the call that we don't want this to be selling the four day a week, you want to be honest, but uh you know what the the pleasing thing is it's worked for you perfectly. Um Leander, a question to you here. You've had a couple of questions, but I'll just pick this one if you don't mind. Um, because it it kind of um it joins on from what Nigel said there. Could people choose the four days they want to work for you, or would they need to work the Monday to Thursday, for example? Was yours set, or could they choose they want a Wednesday off, for example?

SPEAKER_03:

It's set um Monday to Thursday. But as an example, our sales engineers um we've asked them if they can come in on Friday. Um obviously they've got the option to come in or work from home on Friday. Um, but the one thing we'd said to those was you can take the other half a day off wherever you like. So they'll work a half day on a Friday, but during that week they can take any of that. So whilst the rest of the site is Monday to Thursday, there's some areas where we've kind of had to adapt it slightly.

SPEAKER_01:

Um yeah, okay, thank you. Um, question to you all in the vision if it's okay. If you're gonna do it again, knowing what you know now, I'll come to you first, Andy. Um, what would you do differently going into it now?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, to um genuinely sleep better at night. And what I mean by that is, you know, probably like many people on this call, the fact you've dialed in, it's maybe on your agenda. Um and it's it's it's quite frankly was terrifying, um, not just for me, but for the rest of the ex as well. And you know, we had a should we, shouldn't we? And you know, getting wrapped around the axle and we can't give it to everybody and all of that. And you know, if I was doing it again, I'd I'd probably not be less cautious, but I would I would certainly you know how can I put it? Just just just not worry as much as what I did when we went through this process. Um, you know, it it it it turned out to to be the right thing. Um despite all of the challenges, despite all of the reasons not to do it, um, it turned out to be the right thing.

SPEAKER_01:

Excellent. And same to you, Nigel.

SPEAKER_02:

Uh very similar. Uh first time I put it was a a definite leap of faith. Um uh with a lot riding on on it. As I said, it was it was my initiative that that I wanted to get in. Um having helped other companies do it from from there. Um uh it's the it's the confidence of of knowing that it works, as long as you do the prep work up front and understand exactly the real reasons why you want to do it. And if you get that done and and then get the involvement of your teams early, uh make them part of the change. So that that that's that's the the for me the really important part is make them sort of give them the options of what shift patterns do you want to work, how often do you want to do this, how how do we get around around this, what do you want to do with the holidays? Get them to give the input and the feedback in regards to to what's required, and that just makes it a lot easier to implement. But also, um uh when you're communicating back to them of how things are working, that don't be courageous in regards to tweeting it and modifying it. It may be you don't get it right first time, but then tweet it, but make sure that they're involved in in that. But apart from that, I wouldn't change anything. I'd probably not try and make it low that everybody has to go four days a week. So that's uh that's the only change that I that I would I would have. It's uh it's it's one of the best initiatives that the the I've seen in manufacturing business anyway.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, thank you. And and you it's you've answered uh Tom's question, which was on you know, did you ask your staff for feedback on the change before launching it? I know you know you redid, I know that was a huge part of it. And thanks, Andy, for commenting there. Um you consulted the uni as well, just to touch on before I come to the end. So if you wouldn't mind talking briefly about that, that's something you went in to talk to them about because that was obviously a big change.

SPEAKER_00:

It it was, yeah, and I think it's it's worth noting as well. The one thing we did is we we did a trial. Um and we we were really released the break slowly. So we um went in with a bit of flexibility to begin with, with um core hours, then we removed the core hours on a Friday, meaning that people could have a four-day week, and then we then we almost mandated it in some areas, particularly Gloucester. So, you know, this wasn't just an overnight step change. We we were very gradually moved into the four-day week um over a period over a period of a trial. But touching on the unions, yeah, and um look, I have a great relationship with our trade unions. Um you know, we had our challenges in the past, yes, but but we do have a largely speaking, we have a great relationship with our trade unions. Um the it took the bit that took me by surprise is I thought the trade unions would jump at this, and they didn't. Um the trade unions had quite a lot of concerns, and um the reality, you know, we were like, you know, we we've touched on it, you know, you've got your Fridays off, it's better for childcare, you're saving at least one fifth of your weekly fuel bill, even though you've got XYZ in um, you know, if if there is a need for overtime, you can work that on a Friday, but you've still got a weekend with your family. So we we genuinely thought that the unions would um would bite our hand off, and and and they didn't. Um and and the reason for that is they had concerns that their members would be working longer Monday to Thursday, and the impact that that might have on you know whether it'd be fatigue. The reality was that they were doing that anyway because you know quite often there was overtime through the week. And but but look, it was a genuine concern from the unions. Um and uh it it became quite it became a bit of a sticking point for us to be honest. Um and ultimately the the the we the only way we got through that was actually to say rather than have uh we either do it or we don't, it's there for people who want it, and it's people who don't don't have to do it. And um for for for that pocket of people. Um and those who want to do it, just let us know and we'll we'll we'll we'll look at your application, you know, favorably, which is which is what we did. Um and and as more people applied and then they saw the benefits, they were telling the mates and they were like, Oh, it's Friday, I'll be playing golf, oh well, I don't know what work, and and before you knew where you are, more and more people applied, and over a period of time, you know, it became more commonplace. Um, but look, you know, we we we do have um collective bargaining on site. If if the unions had their concerns, we of course we we we we respect those concerns, and we as a business just wanted to to work with our trade union reps to to find something that benefited everybody. And and and I think we've done a really good job there with our reps, you know, frankly, them as well. You know, collectively we we found something that worked.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, thank you. It's uh thank you. And and and the I'm what what's uh what about you?

SPEAKER_03:

I think my comments really would just echo what Nigel and Nadia said. I mean, do your research, communicate. The people are at the core of your business, you know, they're the people that matter. Um, we put it out, the works council, they were all consulted. Um so yeah, just kind of listen, listen to what your workforce want.

SPEAKER_01:

And and just finally few all real quickly, it's okay. Um, if there's someone sat there and they need to justify this to the owner of the business, for example, because that is a big part of it. What advice, quick advice would you give them to do that while listening to this?

SPEAKER_02:

Understand what the owner, what makes the owner tick, what's important to them. Um on the research part, ensure that you have all of the the metrics and the cover, ensuring that any impact to the PL will be a positive, because that would likely be easier to um uh get across the line. And I'm saying this from personal experience, um trying to get them to understand that that having an engaged workforce in the long run will be far better for your business than um than than than uh people coming in and out of the business because they're changing, chasing the extra pennies. Um and if you do that work and present it in the right way, um layer the the seeds early, so start talking about a bit early, um, so that it's not a surprise to them. Um and then as long as you've got that done in the right way and understand what's important to the business owner, then uh then I'm sure that they will will support your option. And go and as Andy said, go go in slow and then then uh as a trial and then and then expand it from there. I know the businesses that have gone big band straight away and and it's been successful, and others that have gone big band and then had to back off and then then then move further along. So um, you know, it it for for business owners to understand what what is important to them as the business.

SPEAKER_01:

Thank you. And and Lianne, um slightly different question for you, but what's been the biggest benefit for for the business and for you since it's been implemented?

SPEAKER_03:

Um production has been a really big one. Um and like Nigel said, just people engagement, um, creating a more positive workplace culture, you know, having that work-life balance um where we can implement it is is really crucial.

SPEAKER_01:

Perfect.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, um engagement. I mean, um, you know, you know, I think Nigel touched on it uh definitely, but it just it just feels a nicer place to be, genuinely, and that's really difficult to quantify. Like I've got loads of data behind it that backs this up, whether it be absence, turnover, engagement scores, whatever that might be. I could I could you know go into percentages, but but actually it just feels a nicer place to be. I have my interactions with the shop floor or the office staff, and it's it's just more, particularly on a Thursday afternoon when they're another walking into a Friday, uh the Friday at home with a family that they didn't have, you know, not too long ago. Um genuinely it is just a nicer place to work. And and you know, the it's really nice when when people reinforce that and they'll just say it's really good intent and really great, loving it. You know, I was thinking of getting a job somewhere else, but I'm absolutely not doing that now. And um, yeah, it's it's just a far nicer place to be.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and I and echo that massively. It's um it's been a massive game change to us because people are just happier. And I I love to see what people do on a Friday. You know, some of the lads play golf together, you know, the you know, that some people see it as a self-care day, some people do it as a fitness. Yeah, it's uh Johnny Johnny's now changed a childcare, so he looks after his little girl. Do you know what I mean? I I I love that that a business, it's just work. Do you know what I mean? Ultimately, it should always just be work if you enjoy coming, it should subsidize a great home life. So I I I completely agree with that. It just becomes a happier place in work, but they're happier in general because they've got also more time to do what they want to do. So perfect. Well, thank you all so much for that. Apologies if I didn't get to um your specific question. We we we had quite a few, I'm sure they'll be happy to pick them up uh offline. But look, thank you to Liana and Nigel for your time. Massively appreciate that because um, you know, you're all great success stories of four-day week, but you know that you know, this this does you just coming on and being honest about the uh the protest. So massively appreciate it. Thank you to everyone who's come on, um asked questions and everything. It's been really good. I've really enjoyed it. So uh thank you everyone. I will send this um this out as well, it'll be out within the next sort of 24 40 hours. So please feel free to uh send it to your uh the powers that be that make decisions in a four day week. And uh again, I'm happy to answer any questions myself. So thank everybody and hope you have a lovely rest of the day. Thank you very much. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03:

Thanks, everyone. Thank you. Bye bye.