172 Years of Leadership: Building a Business That Lasts

What does it take to lead a 172-year-old business in a world that doesn't stand still?

In the latest episode of the Manufacturing Leaders Podcast, Mark is joined by Kiran Fothergill, Executive Vice Chairman of the Kipling Group and sixth-generation leader behind Pickering Lifts. 

Together, they explore the balance between legacy and innovation - and the responsibility that comes with stewarding a historic family business into the future. Kiran reflects on what long-term thinking really looks like inside a family-owned organisation. 

From navigating economic and political cycles to expanding into new markets such as escalators and loading systems, he shares how patient, strategic leadership has shaped the company’s evolution.

The conversation also turns to the future of engineering - the growing skills gap, youth unemployment, and why apprenticeships are more important than ever. Kiran speaks candidly about the role businesses must play in developing talent early and creating real pathways into industry.

This is a conversation about stewardship, resilience, and building something designed to last for generations.

If you’re leading through change, or planning for the long term, this episode is well worth your time. Tune in now!

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You'll join Manufacturing Leaders from across the North East at New College Durham to share insights, challenges, and ideas shaping the industry's future.

Find out more and register your interest for the Manufacturing Leaders Summit 2026 by clicking here. 

Please like and subscribe - it genuinely helps grow the show and, in turn, helps push the industry forward.

Theo James is a Manufacturing & Engineering Recruiter based in the North East, helping Manufacturing and Engineering firms grow across the UK. 

If you’d like more information about Theo James, feel free to get in touch with the team or Mark anytime.

You can call us on 0191 511 1298. 

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hello and welcome to an episode of the Manufacturing Least Podcast with me, Mark Bracknell, my director of Theo James Recruitment. Today we welcome on Kieran Fothergill, the vice chairman of the Kipling Group and the company director of Pickering's Lifts. Pickering Lifts have been going for over 172 years, a generational family-run business. I couldn't wait to pick Kirin's thoughts and everything that he's been involved with since being there for 10 years and taken over from company director from previously his dad's role. We talked in detail about that. He took us through the full journey, the full 172 years of Pickering's List, which was fascinating. And I really understood the importance of how culture can embedded into a generational round business. And actually, the benefits of that being stability and consistency for each staff. We talked about how you balance innovation with heritage. And even now, with such an established product to what they manufacture, they're still looking to innovate and to change. We also touched on and talked in detail about the skills gap. We are recording this on the National Apprenticeship Week, and we talked about not only the importance of apprenticeships and getting apprentices into your business, but actually the challenges and the current challenge right now that not enough, perhaps why not enough businesses aren't doing that. And we talked in detail about NEET not in education, employment, and training and looking at the softer skills to allow people to get those opportunities. We also talked in detail about the industry, about engineering, and Kevin shared a very interesting view about the up-and-coming employment rights and the effects and the negative effects he believes that will have on businesses like his in terms of hiring people. We also touched on leadership mentality. Kieran um is involved with I believe five different businesses. So I obviously talked and discussed how he handles um the everything around that. So this was a real fascinating, enjoyable episode. You're gonna learn a lot from. So thank you very much, Kieran. As ever, please everyone like and subscribe. It really helps grow the channel. But sit back, listen, watch, and enjoy it. Thank you very much. A massive uh warm welcome today to Kieran Fathergill, the uh the vice chairman of the Kitlin group. How are you doing, Kieran? You okay? Yeah, hi Mark. Thanks very much for having me on. Thank you very much for coming on. So we've got loads to talk about today. I'm really looking forward to it. Um, first question is the same question I ask everyone that comes on. Um, what does it mean to you to be a leader? What do you say?

SPEAKER_01 2:28

I think you want to be regarded as someone who has a vision, and I think you want to bring people with you on a journey. So there's various ways of being a leader, and I think if you if you look into the um application of leadership and the execution, there are all sorts of strategies and theorems, and we can get technical and into the detail about leadership and trying to dissect it as they might do on an MBA course, you know, for example. But I think at its core, um, you want to inspire people with a vision and an idea uh and take them with you on a on a journey.

SPEAKER_00 3:04

Yeah, yeah, I I like that because exactly that. There's many definitions, but actually, when it comes down to it, you're you're leading people into battle, you're leading people into something, and and to do that, you have to have a vision, which is which interesting. Uh normally I would tend to pick around that, but actually that almost segues into quite nicely in terms of part of what you do and and part of the businesses you work for. So part of the Kipling group obviously is Pickwings Lifts. Obviously, you are an extremely busy man. There's lots lots of uh that come under that umbrella, and we'll we'll pick it and talk about it. But I'm really fascinated by Pickings Lifts. A business which has been is it 173 years? Is that how long they've been going forward? 172 years this year, which is amazing, and you know that hopefully we'll get make making it to that. And you know that it isn't you know that not many companies reach that level. Yeah, and I'm really fascinated by that in terms of how what you need to do to a business to be able to evolve and and change and and to establish yourself and keep going, John. That's how many decades that is. You've obviously been there for a little while. Was it noticeable when you started that they were different to other businesses that you worked with before, would you say?

Family Business Mindset And Culture

From Mines To Lifts: The Origin Story

SPEAKER_01 4:16

Um well, I think I think it certainly as a family business, you in a family business, you can you can tell the difference between a sort of a different style of business, uh a non-family business, let's say, um, because of the time horizon over which decisions are generally taken. I think that's probably the key difference. So we're um we're not bound necessarily by the same economic cycles that other businesses are. We're not trying to deliver you know maximum shareholder value in any one particular year and therefore potentially eroding the structures of the business in its long-term interests because we're pursuing short-term goals. So you do definitely have a different perspective. And we're looking uh, you know, well, I took about economic cycles, also government and political cycles, you know, they come and go. So we take a very long view, long-term view. And I think that uh that feeds through top to bottom in the organization in terms of the culture. Um and I think it's probably also interesting then to look back at the the business itself and the history of the business, both in the time that I've been there, which is um which is coming up to 10 years, um, but also in terms of the length of the history of the business going back to the very beginnings, and to see how over the course of history the business has reinvented itself in order to stay and model and modernised at points in order to stay relevant both to its um to its customer base uh to serve its customers well, but also uh and therefore in the market, I suppose you might say. So um, you know, we we started out, um, and I'd sorry I'll go off on a tangent here slightly, Mark, but uh uh we started out, interestingly enough, in 1854 as a as a mineshaft lifting equipment business. Elevators or lifts, as we call them in the UK, elevators didn't exist um back then, of course. Well not of course, but they didn't. It was they were they were coming soon down the line at that point, but nevertheless, they weren't there yet in 1854. So the business was uh in the business of um uh uh uh of of uh extracting goods and people and things from mineshafts. And um, and we got we were quite good at it. The business was founded by Jonathan Pickering in 1854 and um and was doing well in the Northeast. Um and then of course that we you know that was the the time of the industrial the industrial revolution was really at its peak and and uh uh the northeast was powering Britain, Britain's trade and and Britain's economy. Um, and of course, we were exporting as a as a nation, we were exporting around the world at that time, and it was an amazing time. Uh Gladstone uh called Middlesbrough the infant Hercules when he came up for a visit in the 18 in the 1880s there. So it was an extraordinary time to be on Teaside, certainly, um uh and there was a lot of wealth. And uh Pickering was part of that, um, was was was was a key part of of that moment, I suppose. And and then as the business uh developed in the 1850s and 60s, uh Jonathan Pickering, the owner, um, decided that he wanted to expand into uh into different areas of lifting equipment, namely marine docking systems and cranes that were used to um onboard and offload goods onto ships. And he enlisted the services of my six generations back great-grandfather John Fothergill, who was a marine engineer from Hartlepool. And in fact, we still have some of his patented designs, um, which are scale models of the crane and pulley systems that he was building himself back then, which is pretty amazing. My dad's got those. Um and if you remember, um, back then limited companies as we know them now didn't exist because we didn't have the company, the companies act as as it is now hadn't been passed. So what you had fundamentally at the core of any business was three ingredients. You had the um you had the the inventor, the entrepreneur, number one, you had an accountant and a lawyer. And that was the simple structure of any business, generally, rule of thumb. Um, so at this point, when Jonathan Pickering enlists the services of John Fothergill, my ancestor, we've now got two sort of entrepreneurial um uh figures who are sort of inventors in their own right and working together both on the mineshaft lifting equipment side and on the marine docking systems. And they got they were quite strong at doing that. And you can see how the technology then developed into the ideas for lifts as we know them today, uh, the mechanics being sort of fairly similar. So um they both together worked on the first design of a lift in the UK and um went to America, went to Philadelphia, exhibited at the World Fair in the 1880s, um, which of course, you know, was a sort of an uh uh with the world the world fair in the 19th century, went from Philadelphia to Paris. We had, of course, the great exhibition in the Crystal Palace in London. So this was a time where people came to see the latest inventions of the day. And Pickering's lifts was part of that whole thing, which is pretty amazing. Um, and we um and and and and anyway, the two of them came up with a few designs and and and started manufacturing lifts. Um, and then um and then John Jonathan Pickering died in 1891, and there was only one person really could that take his job that could take his job as managing director, and that was my ancestor and John Fothergill. And um, and that I think the accountant and the lawyer were quite happy with that as well because they they actually didn't uh chase there, yeah. Yeah, exactly, exactly, exactly. So there's a joke there somewhere, but anyway, um and then from that moment um in 18 uh 91 through to the present day, the business has gone father-son, father-son all the way down, and um and here we are in 2026. Um and I think you know there's been ups and downs, we've experienced the highs and lows of T-Side, the modern history of T-side, Stockton, and we but we've we we we we haven't moved anywhere, and we're very proud of that. Um, and in the last sort of 15-20 years, we've branched into um uh into escalators and into loading systems, so docks and things. So we're still evolving, still constantly moving. Um, and uh I think that's you know that's absolutely key to to the success of any business over that period of time. In fact, I've got somewhere here, I was just thinking if it was to hand, it's not, I've got the um little pamphlet from our centenary um celebrations in in in 1954. So the business was 100 years old in 1954, and it's a little program of events at the Zettland Hotel in Saltburn, and um, and it's got my great-great-grandfather and my great-grandfather on the program, one was chairman and one was MD at the time, welcoming, and it's got this sort of order of service for the for the day and the menu that they had on that day, and uh a little forward by both. And I think that's just a beautiful piece of history because uh that was you know, that was the 100th anniversary in 1954, and wouldn't it be wonderful to get to the 200th uh in uh in a few decades' time? So there we are.

Reinvention Across Generations

SPEAKER_00 10:59

Thank you for that. It's amazing because uh that is a you know a proper history of a of an amazing business. And just we were talking there, I was thinking there's not that many businesses in the Northeast really can have got that level. Obviously, you've got the lights of you know egg a generational business, you know, but different, you've got you know, Ford Aerospace until recently that was generational business. So there are there Skype that Northeast, but there's so few and amazing. Do you did you do you feel a certain um level of responsibility, I guess? Because there's one thing coming to a business where you know you're in a senior role and it's the responsible role, it's another thing where you've got the weight in the shoulders of all your your ancestors gone by. Is it do you do you feel that?

SPEAKER_01 11:41

Yeah, I think it um I think it's illustrated by uh uh by an experience I had um when it was first announced to the business that I would be um would be joining the business. And and I I was a little bit nervous about it because one, you know, I'm the son of the the the owner. I mean that's that's the obvious first one. You think, well, you know, what are people gonna think about that? And is that you get into your own head about it?

SPEAKER_00 12:06

Yeah, of course. Yeah, everyone would, yeah, yeah. Do you think that wouldn't you? There's the pressure on it, and you know, is it because of your son?

SPEAKER_01 12:13

And yeah, it's exactly exactly. And there's that there's that natural desire to um prove yourself and to earn that credibility, and that takes time, of course. So um that was um that was a concern of mine. But when when the um when the notice went up, my dad's a little bit old school, he sort of does things as if it's still the 1970s, and maybe that's the reason for some of our success. It's uh he's very thorough, but he puts he pinned the uh notice up on the notice board.

SPEAKER_00 12:39

Like any liar, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:41

No, exactly. So and it and it and it and it and it said that I was um I was going to be joining the the team, and the reaction was so positive. I mean, it was amazing. I had um uh people coming up to me and and and saying, We're so pleased that you've joining the team and and and that you're you know you're working with your father, and and it was amazing because it made me realize that um me joining naturally meant that our team members and our employees suddenly had that job security for another generation. And um and I that that didn't come from because we're so the news cycle is so focused on big multinational corporates. And when when people on the street think about the layman thinks about um what it means to be an employee in a in a in an in a in an office space, generally about it from the wrong perspective, they're thinking about what it means to work for one of these massive companies and and just to be another number on a spreadsheet. It does, it's not like that uh in family businesses at the local small level. So you know, we're we are a family, and and and we you know we've had generations of people working for us. And brother, you don't get into a cab at Darlington Station to go to Stockton, invariably and you say going to Pickering's list, invariably the taxi drivers had a cousin or of their father, or someone's worth in our business. And and then you support all those people, of course, as any business does, you know, the families and and and beyond. So there's a huge bit of responsibility there, but but that that goes both ways. And and one, of course, I feel responsible for the people that work in our organization, but at the same time, they're very they're they're they're brilliant people and they're very aware of what it means to to work in at Pickering's lifts. And and we have people working 35, 40, 40, we had a 50-year-long service, and you don't get that anymore in today's world, but we still have it, and that's because it's a great place to work, and the culture's been set over a long period of time, and we're true to to our values, and people can talk about values and they can have a you know, they can meet around a table and pretend that they're gonna come up with some values for the organization. It doesn't work like that. You can, you know, or pay a consultant even worse to tell them what their values should be. That's all rubbish. You know, the values are are uh lived and breathed over a long period of time, and and and and and and that's that there's no shortcut to to to to talk you know um credibly about about values. So, but but that you know we can. And um, and I I yeah, it's a it's a it's a really wonderful privilege and responsibility to have to to the to the people that work with me. Um and I think it's yeah, I think it's fabulous. And and and they know that um that we'll look after them, and that's important.

Responsibility And Continuity

SPEAKER_00 15:15

Yeah, and it it's very refreshing hearing someone talk about that because you know, I've had a lot of people talking about leadership and and and certain words and and and and like that safety, you know, the people feeling safe in the role is is really important, and that's you know, stability is part of that, but also just being safe about the communication, about being heard, about being a being a voice, and and you know, to have a culture where people feel like they are uh treated correctly and treated as part of the culture is is just it's absolute priceless. And I was exactly that before you said, I was just thinking those businesses, the people in that businesses will have thought fantastic, you know, Kieran's joining, and exactly that, you know, the the consistency of that culture will will keep because obviously, as part of your role when you come in, you're sure there's things you want to change and and innovate, but they'll still be a part of you go, this has worked for 160 years now. You know, you know, I I don't want to break what's what's been working really well, and that that's that's good, that's got consistency for people, and that's important.

SPEAKER_01 16:13

It's also my I was once to the Pickering's was once described. I don't know if this is a good or bad thing, but it's interesting, it's an observation. But it's like the Titanic in many respects, in that it to change course takes a long time. Yeah. And I think that probably I mean, that doesn't I think culturally maybe that has a little bit more relevance. And that's maybe a good thing. I think you don't want to break things that have working. I mean, if it if it ain't broke, it don't fix it. But um, but it is it is interesting that uh that that was an observation from an from an ex-colleague.

SPEAKER_00 16:47

And and because it's it's a good point that because how do you you know I guess you have to balance um you know heritage with innovation? You know, I guess that's something you as a business you could you've got to juggle. You know, the the it's been a uh uh unbelievably challenging five, ten years for a lot a lot of companies, and engineering, you know, in particular is is changing in probably the last five years even more so. How have how have you worked for that as a business to try to uh to adapt and pivot to this this new world, would you say, or or have you just stuck to what works and been consistent with it?

Balancing Heritage And Innovation

SPEAKER_01 17:19

No, look, well, I think that you you um I think businesses can go can can can make mistakes when they try to change the things that work really well for them. So I think you've got to um to have a real awareness of of of where your core strengths are. You've got to play to those strengths, um, and then you've got to innovate around the edges. I I that's how I would see I I I very wary of just sort of tearing up the playbook, and particularly when things are going well, um, because you can get into some dangerous territory. Um, and you want the continuity there as well in in people along the journey. So I think for us, it's been our our bread and butter is in lift service, in lift maintenance and repair, in lift servicing. And um uh and that's the engine of our of our business. So we just make sure that we are refining our strategy in in delivering, you know, in our in our execution of of lift maintenance and repair. But but we uh but then we we we look at other business areas, business streams, and think where can we um you know, where can we invest and and and and what can we do better and what are interesting parts of the market to be in. And and where we've done that, um, to give you some concrete examples in the last 15 years or so has been in in escalators and escalator servicing, in loading systems and products. So we, you know, um servicing the big distribution centers, think Amazon, think Costco, these sorts of places, big warehouses. So we we've got into that market a little bit more fragmented, there's a little bit more space for for a player like us to get involved there and do it well. So uh, and those areas we've invested time and and and money into and we've we've built the teams. And of course, changing habits in the engineering it takes a long time. You know, it's a very, it's a small it that if you look at it, actually, there aren't that many players on a national level. So to change customer habits and to get them excited about our products and to get the marketing right, you know, you these you're dealing with people, if you think about the individual thing, dealing with people who've been in the industry 25, 30 years, they know where they're buying from, they don't want to particularly buy anywhere else, they've got their relationships built. And you know, we're if you so to launch even if we're an established name, and it shows how hard it is that it's take it takes us even a long time, even as an established name who sell everything else, to then get someone, a customer of yours on one product to get them to buy another thing and to change their behavioral patterns. That's it's a difficult thing. So so it does take time, um, but you gotta have the courage of your convictions, and you've got to be sure, you know, you've got to put the research into um uh to the um uh to the product, etc. So so yeah, that's um I I would say that's what that's probably being the strategy. Make sure we're doing um a good job of the core business, and then uh have a look at where we can um uh expand into different areas. Actually, one point I was gonna- that's what I was thinking of. We have another product um that we want to launch, another business stream, actually, that we a business area that we want to launch um this year, which is really interesting. We've done the RD, we've actually found a facility, and we are and we've even hired two people in to do this, but we're just holding back at the moment because of the uh because of the economic outlook. And also more than that, or combined with that, I suppose, is is is the question of what policy is the government going to come up with next that's gonna create even more stress on our on our business. So that's a bit of a shame because there's an opportunity to do something, but uh to do something new, but we're just holding fire at the moment.

Core Services And New Streams

SPEAKER_00 20:58

But what I really like about that is that you know your product is essential, you know, for for a lot of businesses. You know, if you have stairs, you need a lift, and you know, it's not a luxury, it's essential. It's um, you know, they and that is uh an excellent technology to be in because something which isn't a luxury, something which essentially is uh you know is a vitamin, I guess, rather than painkiller is an integral part of the business. But actually, you're still looking to innovate, you know, you're still looking to try to bring out new products or or or or tweak new technologies that are around, which I think is a real lesson for a lot of businesses that just because you feel like you've you've nailed something and you're doing well, you don't know what's around the corner and you don't know what the competition is doing. And that's clearly what what you are doing there. And I I will we'll come back to because I I want to I'd love to hear your thoughts on where you feel the industry's at and and where you feel the you know the government or lack of government support will be. And so I'll I'll come back to that. Apologies for interrupting this podcast. Very briefly to tell you about the Manufacturing Leaders Summit, an event I've been wanting to organise for quite some time, and we've finally done it with new College Durham, April the 30th, 2026. All money raised goes to Red Sky Foundation, a charity extremely close to my heart that I've raised money for over the last five years after losing my dad to a cardiac arrest. It's an amazing charity, and you actually see the effects of the money raised. You'll see the defibrillators going and around the area. The day's going to be amazing. We've got speakers who are TED Talkers, we've got um ex-Olympian, we've got um authors, all around leadership mentality and manufacturing engineering. We've got an amazing panel of people. We're gonna talk about getting helping young people get into engineering. And then we've got eight different workshops to choose from. It's gonna be an amazing event, all around adding value back to manufacturing. Ideally, 180 to 200 people are gonna be there on the day, and it's a great opportunity to network with um like-minded people, other manufacturing leaders. So please, please attend ticket prices of a suggested 15 pound donation when you sign up via Ventbrite. And we really want you to be there. Tickets are going fast, workshops are getting filled up fast. So please make sure you click the link, which we'll put in the comment section as well. Click the link, share it with anyone else you think could be keen, and I can't wait to see you there. Thank you very much. One thing I like to speak to about, Kirin, is is the skills gap and the apprenticeship piece. Obviously, as a as a business, I know that's something that um you know has been the lifeblood of your business, has been apprentices and and that training piece. Um is that something you're passionate about? And how do you feel about where the industry is at the moment?

Holding Back A Launch Amid Uncertainty

SPEAKER_01 23:32

Yeah, I mean, we're we're we're I'm very passionate about it, both in you know, in terms of our business, but also um my role in in the Jobs Foundation, which maybe we can come that come back to. But yeah, uh, you know, um we the the facts of the matter are that we've got a lot of people, particularly young people, not in employment, educational training called NEETS. Uh, I mean, we're talking in the millions, and it's a massive issue for this country. Forget engineering, forget pickering, forget anything. It's it is a it's a huge issue because uh on the one hand, you're not raising it. I mean, very basically, I mean teaching you to suck eggs, Mark, but on the one hand, very basically you're not um um producing any tax income from from these people because they're not working. At the same time, you get the double whammy of having to pay a huge amount in in social welfare, um, which is just increasing, and particularly when you have generational unemployment as you do in parts of Tea Side and deprived areas uh and social um difficulties, let's put it like that. You have uh when you don't have the culture of work in families um and the memory of work in families, then it's very difficult to find ways to pathways um for for for young people to get into into work. And and I think apprenticeships um do do you know do help there and they do go they do go some way to um you know to to sort to solving part of the issue, but there's another gap, I think, which which hasn't been addressed, and and that is um getting young people into a position where they can even apply for an apprenticeship. And then it's sort of like we assume that we assume that the sort of the 16-year-olds can get an apprenticeship, but actually the 16-year-old or the 17-year-old doesn't know what it means to even turn up to an interview on time, doesn't know what it means to dress appropriately or to or how to to use a uh to email appropriately. So they fall down already and they fail before they've even got a chance to get to the apprenticeship. And of course, if you have an experience like that or a second experience like that, and and and actually, you know, then we can look at the the other side of it, which is that does it even make sense for them to work because they're they can do better on benefits, but that's all of the question. Let's leave that to one side, but it is an important point, maybe for another podcast. But um, but you know, we've got an issue there. How how are we giving our young people the best opportunity to even take advantage of the potential for apprenticeship? So that's an interesting gap. We talk about skills gap. There's a skills gap there. Um, but certainly, I mean, if you look at it's remarkable, we've got vacancies at the moment in in our head office in Stockton. We've got loads of vacancies. Um, and we're in a part of the country that has one of the highest rates of unemployment. In fact, the ward next where we are has one of the highest rates of unemployment in the Northeast, and therefore, you know, the country. And you think, how can we have such high rates of unemployment and such a massive social welfare bill, particularly in this area, and yet we've got massive vacancies at very low uh low-entry jobs in in a business that's in the area, uh, but but these things are true. Um, so yeah, there is something, there's something just this is misaligned there. I think I mean it's always about incentives. Somehow we've we've managed, uh, it's above my pay grade, sadly, but I think somewhere we've managed to um be misaligned as a society, uh, and we aren't solving these things.

Event Announcement And Charity Plug

SPEAKER_00 27:06

Yeah, 100%. And and uh we we share a passion for this. It's um and I agree, I'm it's almost like the the problem isn't that obvious because there are so many. You know what I mean? It's if if there's one problem that I think it'll be fixed. Um, but I agree. The uh I trained to be a careers advisor um 20 bit years ago before I got into recruitments, and I I worked for connections and we did some work with with Neat. So I say not education, employment, and training. And um it was the issue was exactly that. It was the soft skills, it was the the fact that these people were were never going to get the opportunity opportunity to potentially understand what they could be fantastic at, because actually there is still a barrier to entry that you need to be able to impress someone interview in a very daunting situation where you're you're you're uh you're in front of someone in a desk, and and that is you know, if you're not teaching people how to do that, and they'll be teaching people in schools the that level of confidence and interview skills and on you know entrepreneurial public speaking, all these things which actually enable you to get opportunities and and open doors, they're never going to get to the stage where they're actually the company's going, yeah, I could work with this person, and so there's a there's and that missing gap is probably right from their 10-12 years old, and then the problem's already there. So I think there's I agree, there's a lot of work to be done from from schools, from from teachers, from from parents, you know, from the government to you know to give support and more opportunities to people to do that because you're absolutely right, you know, the Northeast and in particular Teeside, unfortunately, the the data does state that there's a lot of lot, way too much unemployment in a in a an area of of high vacancies aren't being filled. You know, it's it's a it's a real juxtaposition, isn't it? It's it's in one hand you got unemployment, other hand you got vacancies. You should be able to put the two together, but there's just a missing a missing gap. Do you think um it's we're recording this on apprenticeship week, and there's some fantastic businesses doing amazing thing with apprentices. There's also a lot of companies I hear and speak to who say they can't they can't afford to go on apprenticeships or they haven't got the time to do apprenticeships, and it's just too much for a long game. Do you think it's um it's a mentality, is it a funding issue, a sort of funding or pulsary issue, or more of a mindset that there's not enough apprenticeships available in the first place, would you say?

The Skills Gap And NEETs

SPEAKER_01 29:28

Um I I I'm not sure if it's if it's one or the other. I think you know that there is a um there is this this notion of again, and we talk about time horizons, of uh of investment into people here, and and and does it pay off in the long run? I think um, you know, in our to give you to speak again about our industry, um there are fewer and fewer lift MBQ3 um qualified uh engineers, right? And that's what we ask now, is is that that is the that's the standard. Um and and actually if you think about it, a lot of these uh and I don't want to do down the engine to talk down the engineers, but I'm just this is a fact. The actual qualification itself um can be you know, you can fudge it, basically, is the truth of it. So you can you can tell your employer you've got this qualification, but it it doesn't necessarily translate to the fact that you can fix a lift, right? That is just the truth, and it's very different to how um it used to be, where you know you'd have you'd have guys going out on in the field with with with engineers and and serving their time on the tools. So what you have is is on the one hand fewer engineers um uh coming through with the skills and experience that maybe their um predecessors might have had, but also because there's fewer and fewer of them, that you've got that they they can command, um they can sort of they can command more in the marketplace salary-wise. Yep. And and that um that that's a difficult thing, is it for a business to have to have to navigate because you know when we're we're a national business with hundreds of engineers around the country and all of them at different stages of their careers and from different generations and different you know, cultural heritage and et cetera. So what you've got ultimately is in our individual offices, sometimes a little bit of a battle for the regional manager to balance the wage structure in any one office, because you've got guys who've worked maybe 30 years on the tools, brilliant, so fix any lift, no problems, but on just a little bit more money than the guy who's you know 21 and uh doesn't know anything really. And I mean, sure, but you know, you know what I mean, life experience-wise, and on the tools, who but because of the nature of the fact that there aren't enough people coming through, um, can you know can command a high salary. So back to apprenticeships. I think sometimes there's a bit of a uh reluctance to invest in the young people and and really, and we do anyway, we do, trust me, but but but but but nevertheless, to to to invest in them because what is going to happen next, they could just be mercenaries and leave. But that does, and that does still happen. But what we do find, and this goes back to the long service and the culture, is that um the grass isn't always greener, and and sometimes, not all the time, and that's fine, but sometimes uh and often um we we'll have we'll have guys come back to us after a year elsewhere or so or less. Um, and that's fine. That's just part of that's just part of how how it goes. So yeah, that's probably what I'd say about that.

SPEAKER_00 32:45

Yeah, I agree. Do you think there's an opportunity? Because the the the companies I find that aren't taking apprentices on are the smaller businesses, I guess, which might might not have the the setup available and the time it takes. You know, I would I would argue that every company I've seen it work for, it's it's an amazing way to empower your employees to mentor people. And you know, it's uh an alternative route to management could be mentoring someone, um, you know, a young apprentice. But you know, there's still a time attached to that and uh a cost attached to it. Do you think this is where some companies could collaborate? You know, the the the smaller businesses could collaborate with the bigger businesses to try to create more if that was funded and incentivized from the government to do so. Because I just there's an obvious gap between companies, and I can think of a few in T-side that have got a fantastic reputation, have a brilliant apprenticeship scheme, and then many businesses just don't, and then they almost have to pick from the ones that do you know what I mean that are then not worked out somewhere else, and it's it's it's uh it's a difficult one.

Soft Skills As The Missing Bridge

SPEAKER_01 33:44

Yeah, definitely. And I think that one of the things that I do as chairman of the Jobs Foundation Northeast is um speak to a lot of businesses in the region uh and to share best practice and and and to and to encourage that sort of partnership. Exactly right. Um I think there is scope, but I think, yeah, it's definitely it's very difficult for small businesses to take because it is, I mean, it you know, relatively it is a it's a big risk and it time-wise, particularly, and the investment that's required. So um, yeah, why, you know, how do we how do we make them feel better about taking that risk or even minimise that risk? I think that's a really important question to uh to to ask. Um but you know, the rewards are there if if you get it right and and and you are matched up with the right person, um it's it is it's brilliant. I mean, our if you look at Pickering's one of our directors who's been um who's now on the boards, who's who's been with us must be over 25 years, uh he started on the tools and um and has gone right the way through the business to the top. So that's great as well to be able to show, you know, to be able to go into schools and talk about that career progression. And and and you know, again, today societal problem perhaps, but we send far too many children, with children, kids to it, or kids, uh sorry, uh young adults, as they say, to university when we don't need to do that and at huge cost, and and and there's far more rewarding both, you know, in terms of what work gives you, but also financially rewarding um career paths available through a vocational profession. So I think um I think you know, to to have examples of of people in our business who've who've who've been with us and and and gone the distance um is really powerful when we when we speak to our apprentices.

SPEAKER_00 35:26

Yeah, I agree. I I think ultimately a lot of people do and get influenced by what the parents do, you know, which is which which I guess is another issue with the unemployment piece. They see that at home, you know, that fortunately that's what they tend to tend to go into. But the university ones are interesting, isn't it? Because I I agree. My eyes were my eyes have been opened, thankfully, that university can be an amazing route. And I went to university, um, my sister went to university, and that was the route that almost was was sort of pressed on us by my parents. I'm glad I did because it was great for me, more the life life skills piece. But actually, I've got two kids, and my um eldest is 10, and she's she's just clearly academic, wants to be a teacher. I can see down that route. My little lad is he's just want to see how things work, and he's got he's really enjoys that engineering piece. And I think if I'd not worked in this field, I perhaps wouldn't have. But now all I'm talking to him about is engineering. I'm showing him robotics and those because I just see that's his path. And I don't him potentially go to university and just pure on the academic side, I just think would be a would be a way. So yeah, I I think there's a there's an area of awareness that should be given to to parents as well, because you know it's not their fault to some extent, they don't know because they've not had the exposure to it. I'd like to just touch on that jobs found action piece and and I guess you know bring it in regionally. What are you seeing on the ground now, would you say? And and I guess what are people not talking about enough, where which which is a problem, would you say?

Apprenticeships: Barriers And Payoffs

SPEAKER_01 36:52

Um, yeah, I mean, I I think at the moment there's a lot of concern. I what what one one thing, I mean, particularly in hospitality, uh that I've been speaking to a few businesses recently, that is is the the simple fact that the the taxation is causing um serious financial stress on the business. So the increased ENI on on uh on on businesses that are are are uh labour intensive and you know heavy on on the staff overheads. That's really difficult for them now. And the margins are already way for thin. So uh, you know, the government, unfortunately, no one in the government really has any business experience, which might be part of the issue here, but um, but they don't see that. And um, you know, I was in London to take it back from sorry, to zoom out from the northeast for a sec, but I was in London on a Wednesday night a couple of weeks ago, and you couldn't get a pint, and it was about half past nine in the evening. You thought, what's going on here? Because of the pubs were just shutting because it wasn't working, it wasn't they couldn't afford to employ people through to closing at 11 o'clock. You're in London, and it's impossible. And you just think, what the what the hell's going on? Yeah, but that is the reality of it, you couldn't do it. So I think there's um there's a lot of concern about that, and then just again to talk about maybe government policy, the the employment rights bill that's coming in. Um there is a lot of concern there as well. And I think when we talk about the skills, you know, talk about taking a punt on someone, taking a punt on an apprentice, taking a punt on an employee and and and and giving them the benefit of the doubt, particularly say they don't turn up to the interview and impress you brilliantly, but actually you see something in them, you think, well, maybe they had an off day, let's give them a shot, let's give them a shot. I think that the the willingness for employers to do that is um is being dampened down, and and that's as a result of the increased burden of legislation. Um, and I think we've got to be aware of that, and and it's doing exactly it's gonna have exactly the opposite effect that the government intends, um, because you're just hamstringing small businesses and what actually what what happened in practice, and we've discussed this at our boards, is well, we now need to be really, we need to be doubly sure of one who we're hiring and two of them passing the probationary period. Um, and we need to have references and we need to go, you know, we we need we need to do an extra layer of due diligence. And that just means that the person who hasn't worked for five years because they've had mental health issues, or they've been there, or they've done that, or they've been caring for someone who's trying to get back into the workplace, it's gonna have another an extra hurdle to jump over. So, yeah, I mean, these are the things that we're talking about in our sessions.

SPEAKER_00 39:23

Yeah, yeah, I I I could not agree more with what you said there, again, that's exactly the what I'm hearing, you know, from a lot of our employees that they are they're all scared of putting a foot wrong about the consequences, you know, that as simple as that. And um, it's it will, for me, I completely agree, it will have a completely derogative effect in terms of of what it what it needs to be. So it's uh it is, it's uh it's a real, real issue that, and I'm I'm also quite concerned. And um, and and like you say, that that that changing and eye, you know, amongst other issues, but that one itself I saw an overnight shift, you know, we're we're a you know an engineering recruitment firm, and overnight I saw roles got cancelled after that, and the hesitation just because the payrolls in manufacturing are absolutely huge, you know, they're huge. So you shift that even slightly, it makes it just comes straight off your bottom line, but you know, added to you know, not enough support with the electricity costs, you know, how much does it cost to heat a big factory? You know, they say the government they're not in these sort of businesses, so they don't see the impact that has. You know, margins have already been squeezed and squeezed, with you know, now you've got supply chain problems, all this type of stuff. It's uh it's a real it is a real issue, and um, you know, to some extent it's a it's it's hidden, you know, it's um it's only only gonna get worse. But you know, uh all we can do in business is everything we spoke about right at the start, isn't it? Is just um adapt to see opportunities and pivot and and move forward because there's no one with a you know what a no white knight coming to save us, it's just a game do so. Um I I'd like to um ask we ask you know your thoughts on leadership, but I guess how you manage things your yourself, Kim, because you are a very busy, very busy man. You know, it's um one look at your LinkedIn tells me how much stuff you're involved with. I mean, how many businesses are you involved with now? Um uh four four businesses. One's enough for me, one kicks me up most nights, so I can only imagine the the stress that that puts under. How have you um how have you learned? I mean, I guess first question, how has your leadership changed over time? From where you are today versus we started, what would you say the main shift you've you've moved towards?

SPEAKER_01 41:33

Um I think I'm definitely more um still working on this by the way, but I think I I I'm definitely just a little bit calmer, more patient, perhaps, and less, less um uh less keen to just impose myself. I think that just I think that just probably comes with experience. I I think uh at the at the start you're very eager to your career at least um to to make an impression and and sometimes um I think sometimes the best impression is you know it is made over over a period of time and in in and in different ways. So that's probably a big a big change um or gradual change, um, but over when I look back over the years. And yeah, I I would um I would say probably also just comfortable with relying on um on people, but that takes a lot of that takes the the you know the building of relationships and again and and of trust. And but I think that's uh I've as I said to you at the start, you know, I've got an incredible team of people um around me in all those businesses, and I think learning from being very comfortable learning from people that know a huge amount more than you in any one of those specific particular fields and just being really comfortable with with leaning on them and their and taking their advice, um, you know, I I really enjoy that. So so yeah, um but and I and I I look forward to developing those things further as well in the future because um because that's that's the the beauty of being in you know in the position I am is that you have some fabulous people and you can learn so much and take so much enjoyment from what you do day to day.

Collaboration For Smaller Firms

SPEAKER_00 43:08

And is there a way that you manage your own you manage your own mindset, I guess, through you know it's been a difficult five years for you know for most businesses, you know, you're in different types of organizations with with different problems. How do you manage to escape that noise sometimes and and just look after yourself?

SPEAKER_01 43:27

Well, there's a the there's a there's an oak tree actually that's uh a civil war era oak tree near where I am, and uh it's been dated to about the 16, it's been dated for the late 1640s, early 1650s. So it might have just missed the execution of Charles the First. But I do look at that tree sometimes, I might go a few walks. I do and look at it, and I think that tree's seen it all. So so how bad how bad can it be? So yeah, I think I think it's really important to be able to just take a step back and take. Give yourself a bit of time. I do that through um through the trials and tribulations of following Middlesbrough and this year looks like a good year. I um take a bit of time out uh to uh yeah to to you know I play cricket in the summer for my village team. We went to India on tour. There's there's things you gotta mark, you gotta put things in the diary uh intervals in the year to look forward to for you know which which are sort of extracurricular. So um I think keeping a you know a very balanced and varied um agenda is is key, uh to sort of you know to to to be able to recharge, go again, stay positive, stay in a healthy frame of mind, um, and and really enjoy what you do what you're doing.

SPEAKER_00 44:41

Nice man. And as a as a chef of Wednesday fine, I need to find myself a few oak trees, I think, and then the uh monthly fair and just sit under one for a couple of days. But the uh um no, thank you, man. And just finally, Kim, what what are you excited about in waiting? In Pickering's Lives or any other businesses of the next sort of six or twelve months, what's uh what's exciting you?

Policy, Tax, And Hiring Caution

SPEAKER_01 45:02

Um well, so I I I mean lots of lots of things. Um in Pickering, I think it's following the the the following the development of our two newest regional offices. Uh we opened up in Cardiff and in East Anglia, and um and those offices are going really well. But but certainly, you know, it's always a couple of years in, a year in. Um, you know, that you can go either way still. So we just want to make sure that those um continue that to track against their uh well certainly with their current trajectory of progression. So be spending a lot of time there and enjoying that and and and making sure the team's developing. Um and I mean we haven't really touched on maybe maybe we'll have to do another podcast sometime, but um, you know, there's in the other businesses, particularly in our cybersecurity business, uh it's an incredibly dynamic and interesting place to be. Um I I it's a little bit uh too hectic for me sometimes. I it's you know, it's a bit nerve-wracking to be honest with you, because you know, one one minute you're you're up that you're you're doing the right thing, and then the next minute you you know that it's all moved on, and you're thinking, what the hell's happened? But uh, you know, in plain speak. But that's great. I mean, it's just it's it's a hugely stimulating place to be in. And we're doing you're seeing the you're seeing the impact of of our of cyber defense, you know, day to day, and and and and and really you're at the forefront, the vanguard of of uh of of national security. So I enjoy that very much, and and who knows what this year and next year will bring there, but we um we continue to to try our best to stay at the to stay at the top of our game.

SPEAKER_00 46:36

Excellent. And we will do another another episode. I'll be fascinated because I say that cyberpits itself is now such an integral part of needs to be an integral part of every single business. But but thank you for this, it's been great. And you know, you know, for me, it's been a real fascinating journey. Of you know, I really enjoyed the journey and the story you took through as at the start, Karen, on Pickering's lift, because there's not many businesses you know in the UK that have that sort of heritage. And actually, one thing for me, which was really one of my takeaways from that, is actually you know the family businesses you know don't all get the credit they deserve, and actually that un that almost hidden um gem of working for a generational business, that continuity and consistency, you know, people don't sometimes appreciate that. And I think that was a real lesson for me. But I really enjoyed our conversation on the skills gap, and actually it was another important reminder for businesses to to look at that and to concentrate on it, you know, because this issue will not go away and will probably get worse over the next five, ten years. And it's it's it can it can be improved. We just all have to do something differently and and like you say, maybe challenge ourselves sometimes to take take someone on and give that person a chance because they could be, you know, uh they could be the next directory business in 20 years' time, you just don't know. So um, so no, thank you for this, mate. It's been uh really, really appreciate it. And uh yeah, thank you very much.

SPEAKER_01 47:55

Brilliant. Thank you, Mark. Look forward to speaking again.

SPEAKER_00 47:58

Thank you so much for listening or watching this episode of the Manufacturing Leaders podcast. Please just like or subscribe, it really helps grow the show and obviously improve the industry. If you want any more information about Theo James, as I mentioned midway through the episode, please get in touch with me or the team. I would love to talk about how it can help you directly or your business. We are more than just a recruiter, and I know people say that, but it's something I'm incredibly passionate about. We are in business for much more than just a bums on seats approach. We want to help people grow, we want to help improve their lives, and ultimately, I want to work with businesses and people who share the same values as we do, and that's something I'm incredibly passionate about. So please, if that is you and you are passionate about that dream role or passionate about your people, please get in touch with me or the team. I would absolutely love to talk a bit more detail. Thank you very much. Speak soon.