Leadership Without Ego: Why the Best Leaders Work from Within

In the latest episode of the Manufacturing Leaders Podcast, Mark is joined by Malcolm Humble, Managing Director of Arian EMS, who has built his career from the shop floor through to leading a successful electronics manufacturing business.

Together, they explore Malcolm’s journey through the manufacturing industry, reflecting on the key moments, challenges, and decisions that shaped his path into leadership. From early hands-on experience to running his own company, Malcolm shares how his perspective on leadership has evolved over time.

The conversation dives into what effective leadership really looks like in practice - from leading as part of the team to creating a culture built on respect, trust, and open communication. Malcolm discusses the importance of authenticity and adaptability, and why involving people at every level of the business is critical to long-term success.

They also touch on the realities of stepping into leadership and entrepreneurship, including the self-doubt, pressure, and personal challenges that often come with it. Malcolm speaks candidly about navigating uncertainty, making difficult decisions, and learning from mistakes along the way.

From building a business from the ground up to maintaining a positive and resilient mindset, this episode is packed with valuable insights for anyone working in manufacturing or stepping into leadership roles.

This is a conversation about growth, resilience, and what it truly means to lead from within.

You can connect with Malcolm on LinkedIn here.

Are you a leader in the manufacturing and engineering space? We're hosting an epic event on the 30th April 2026 and we'd love to see you there! 

You'll join Manufacturing Leaders from across the North East at New College Durham to share insights, challenges, and ideas shaping the industry's future.

Find out more and register your interest for the Manufacturing Leaders Summit 2026 by clicking here. 

Please like and subscribe - it genuinely helps grow the show and, in turn, helps push the industry forward.

Theo James is a Manufacturing & Engineering Recruiter based in the North East, helping Manufacturing and Engineering firms grow across the UK. 

If you’d like more information about Theo James, feel free to get in touch with the team or Mark anytime.

You can call us on 0191 511 1298. 

Transcript

Welcome And Community Announcements

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Manufacturing Leaders Podcast with me, Mark Bracknell, Madison Director of Theo James Recruitment. Today we welcomed on Malcolm Humble, the Magic Director of Arian EMS. I absolutely loved this episode. It took me right back to the early days of the Manufacturing Leaders podcast, where we talked to a lot of people who essentially started out on the shop floor like Malcolm, became a leader like Malcolm, and in Malcolm's case, then went on to own his own business, which is now sold and still works in. And we talked about the full journey, and I absolutely loved it. We talked about him starting out in the industry, loving electronics, learning more from the bad leaders and the bad traits of leaders, and ultimately what led him to start his own business. We talked about the full journey and actually how leadership has evolved and how the importance of communication in leader, leaders are is absolutely essential requirement to be able to get people to do what you want to do. And then the good, the bad, and the ugly of growing a business. And it was just great to speak to a proper British entrepreneur within manufacturing, but actually someone who's still got so much passion to do what he does and ultimately leave with a legacy. And he talked in detail about that and how organically he's grown Erin MES to EMS to what it is today. I absolutely loved it. There were moments in this podcast where I got goosebumps, what Malcolm was saying, and I took so much away. So thank you. It was a real privilege to um interview Malcolm. So please sit back, watch, listen, um, whatever you wanted to do. Please, please, please, as ever, just hit that like and subscribe button. It really helps scroll the show. Just one quick plug. We are doing a fantastic event um for the manufacturing leaders podcast community at New College Durham, April, April 30th. We've got some amazing speakers, panels, workshop. It's deaf in your own arms and legs. It's a£15 suggested ticket price, which all goes to the Red Sky Foundation. So please, please, please get your tickets because they will sell out fast. Without further ado, I hope you enjoy the episode. Excellent night. A massive warm welcome today to uh Malcolm Humble, the MD of Arian EMS. How are we doing, Malcolm? All right. Thanks very much. Yes, good stuff, mate. Look, I'm really looking forward to this. We've had a really good pre-chat a few weeks ago about you, the business, your journey, and it's going to be a what a class is a bit of an old school episode when we sort of just talk through all the all the lessons learned, which I I absolutely love. But before we delve into that, first question I ask everyone that comes on is um what does it mean to you to be a leader, would you say?

SPEAKER_00 2:42

That's a really weird question. Um, I think it's very, very individual, isn't it? I mean, some people see themselves as a I remember I was actually asked about the entrepreneur forum, and it was like you had to explain why you became an entrepreneur, and I was thinking, well, I've never ever seen me as being an entrepreneur. Um, I actually ended up Googling it to say exactly what the uh what the definition was. Um and I guess yeah, I mean that basically come back and said, Well, yeah, you are you are an entrepreneur, and I think along with that is you'd you'd naturally become a leader of uh the team that you work with. But being like it's all I feel uncomfortable with the leader term because clearly you do lead people, but I've always been the type of leader who leads from inside the group rather than at the front of the group. I think there's occasions when you have to shoot off on your horse and you know pull people with you. But I think more often than not, I've always been the type of guy who would work with everybody to take them forward rather than shouting this is the way forward. I'm not I've never been one of these that thinks it's every morning you have to have this rally call. Um, you know, if if communication's required, I think it's great and you need to do it, and you need to do it competently. Um, but I think something was you know trying to look the boss is uh is poor.

SPEAKER_02 4:20

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:21

I'm massive, I agree with all that. Interestingly, um I was also a member of the entrepreneurs forum, and I also remember that question, and I also struggle with it because I I I've never seen myself as an entrepreneur, I own a business, and I see myself as a business owner. So by definition, that is technically an entrepreneur, but I would class an entrepreneur as as something I'm not which someone who juggles various businesses and and and and but but actually you know that the two you know can be very alike, and and I really like the definition of leadership there. And I really like what you said about being the inside and and because leading isn't always showing what to do, it's it's guiding people in different different ways. Now I I the reason I like it is it's authentic to you, isn't it? You know, you I think some people, a lot of people, and I I put myself in this bracket, stress myself out by trying to lead in a certain way because that's what the book said, or that's how I've been led before by someone who looked really comfortable at it, but it wasn't how I felt comfortable with and it didn't it didn't feel authentic. Did you ever struggle with that? Or were you were you always quite strong, and this is how you're gonna lead?

SPEAKER_00 5:30

Um it's a it's a funny one, I'm not really sure because I went from when I was a younger bloke, I went through a transition of um like working on a short floor, you know, and I became a trainer, and then I became um a supervisor. And one of the niggling doubts about becoming a supervisor in my head was how do you transition from being one of the boys till you go home on Friday afternoon, you're one of the boys, you come back in on Monday morning, and you're you know, you're the boss. Yeah, um, and like I say, I was concerned about that, but I never ever had any issues. Um, because like I said, I'm convinced that's because I always worked you know from the inside with people, um, explaining what it was. And it was like, you know, you hear these cliches about shared goals and all this, and I'm like, I can't stand buzzwords. I hate them. But I guess there is some value in there somewhere where you are actually trying to get people to understand what it is you're trying to do and why you're doing it, and the good reasons for doing it, rather than just standing there and saying, no, this is your job at night, this is your job today, that's your job. And then you're kind of like barking instructions out and you're telling people what they need to do. I think sometimes if you actually tell people what it is that needs to be done, uh how can you get it done best, then I think you find that you get your way forward a lot faster. Although there are occasions when you know, when I was a younger and a supervisor and you would have to stamp your feet, because you know, there's that's a line that needs to not be crossed when you've gone from one of the boys to to being the gaffer type of thing. Um, but I transitioned quite well because I was always quite good at communicating with with everybody.

SPEAKER_01 7:29

And I think that's a really interesting thing from Pick because actually I think that's what people struggle with the most. A lot of people are promoted because they're good engineers or they're they're good at the job, so they must be good managers, and and there's no real training to do that, they're just thrown in. The um you know, you you've already insinuated there that you started off on the short floor. Was to take it right back very briefly, was manufacturing something you always wanted to get into, or did you fall into it? What was the what was the route in?

Falling Into Electronics Manufacturing

SPEAKER_00 7:55

Um I just fell into it. Totally fell into it. When I left school, um I left school with like no qualifications, or at least the qualifications I had were absolutely awful. I was never motivated um by any particular lesson. Um, I mean, I had had it in my head I was going to be a pro footballer. Um, and when it became pretty obvious that was never gonna happen, then it I didn't never had a plan B. But I had like very old school parents. Well, my dad was a um he worked on the coal mines for 47 years on the on the face. It was a bit of a hard character to please. Um, and you were never gonna sit around doing nothing. You were gonna get out there and you're gonna earn your crust. So I left school in the September and I got uh what in those days used to call them YTs, youth training programs, and I got that, and you'll never guess what I was doing. Never in a month of Sundas. I was actually training to be a shoe repairer. Really? Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I thoroughly enjoyed it. I really enjoyed it. Um you know I was always there well on well on time. I was always like one of the last ones away, and I really enjoyed what I did. But then when I looked around and I saw these 40-something guys, and I was like, yo, really? Yeah, I mean, I was on 20 quid a week. Uh the old days when you got the cash in the little brown paper packet at the end of the week. Um, and I got the opportunity that was the the local electronics company was actually starting to employing people, and I was had the chance to go from 20 quid a week to I think it was around 54 pounds a week. That's a massive hike. So I took that opportunity and I cannot say, I mean, I absolutely loved it. Um I fell in love with electronic manufacture and the actual basic processes and putting stuff together that you know, all these individual bits and pieces, and you you know, you get put them on a board and sold to them, etc. And then actually function and test it. You know, when you're testing them, you can actually see what these electronic circuits do. And uh that was I was 17 years old then, and I absolutely fell in love with it. Um and just went from there. And I always had a mentality where I was always looking for the way to do things the easiest way, um, which wasn't I didn't sometimes get us into bother with the supervisors, but um, I always did the job the right way, but um I can I can think of a few stories where it wasn't I wasn't popular with some of the gaffers, but um I loved it, absolutely loved it, but it wasn't a planned, it wasn't a planned career move.

SPEAKER_01 10:51

It's interesting though, because I think if you're reverse engineer, every well use the word entrepreneur, every entrepreneur or whatever role you're in, which is a you know a senior position, you know, right from the start, you A, you loved it, it was a passion. You b you had the you had the the discipline, the upbringing to uh you mentioned yourself to to be on time to turn up, you know, the the basics that you know a lot of people still haven't got, but actually uh you weren't ready to just accept that pay packet or that doing that you saw, you know, you had the foresight at that age to see people twice, three times your a your age who were still doing that job, he didn't he didn't want to do it, and I and I think that that way you can see successful people. Do you know what I mean? Because do you think that was that and that that is probably just was that instilled in you, or is that something that you just feel like you've always you were born with to some extent?

SPEAKER_00 11:45

Uh I I think there was a work ethic that was uh instilled. Um like I say, like I've got a brother and a sister, and there's we've never ever been unemployed, we've always been working. Um and like my dad was up all the time, worked, they worked shifts at the at the mine. Um, and no, he wasn't one of these guys who would he would work seven days a week to make sure that you know we had food on the table type of thing. Um so I think you kind of like pick that up. Yeah, it's incredible actually, as you get older, sometimes you say things and you think, God, I don't sound like my dad, yeah. Uh which is not always a good thing sometimes, I'll tell you.

SPEAKER_01 12:29

Yeah, yeah, I remember and and can you remember? Because you know, we talk about leadership, and I think some it's a this is a good moment to almost reflect in preachers a while ago. But did you sit there when you weren't a supervisor, you know, when you're on the shop floor, and can you remember ever analysing leaders you had to go, uh if I'm gonna be leading, I'm not gonna lead like that, or actually I'm gonna lead that. Did you pick up both the the good and the bad?

SPEAKER_00 12:55

Um I definitely picked up the bad.

SPEAKER_02 13:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:01

Um, because in you know, you're you're you're literally you're talking about the um when I first first started working on the shop floor, I was that'll be in 70, 1977, 78, something like that.

SPEAKER_02 13:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:15

And the management style was I mean, it was just hard, hard-nosed stuff, sit down, do as your talk type of thing, which it was a weird environment we went into because we was we were actually part of a huge recruitment um stage in the business where you know the IBM, IBM uh comp the computers, yeah, who were manufacturing solely for IBM. We were the only they were the only customer we had. And it was a lot of young staff in. Like a lot of people like similar ages to me. Um and the old school type of management didn't didn't like lie very well with work. Um I don't think anybody was frightened of work. I think they were just a bit upset with the type of like styles of management. You know, there would bark orders and but you know, we had good supervisors, we had good managers, but they were the ones who tended to like talk to you a bit more, yeah, yeah, and not just tell you this is what you do, get over the type of thing. So I would definitely say I've learned more from how those but more bad managers than what there was good managers. And in those days, a manager and director was stuck up on a pedestal. You know, you never spoke to them. They were always called Mr. Mr. Whatever. Um so I I I would definitely learn more off. I mean, it was like some of the supervisors, the popular supervisors with the management were the ones who were constantly handing out warnings to people. Do as you're told, you haven't done what you're told, there's a warning type of thing. But that was never my style. I mean, if people are giving out, and it's still the same today. I mean, I think there's I think things are a lot better these days because you've got so much um legislation uh for employment law and stuff like that. But um, I think you'd you're kind of like directed a bit more now than what you were. But in the old school days, a lot of the a lot of the uh managers would be they would think you were the best supervisor in the world if you were throwing out warnings like confetti, and that that to me didn't work. I was thinking, well, if you keep giving out warnings like confetti, sooner or later it's not gonna mean anything. People are just gonna say, well, that's that's just how it is. So I never, I mean, on your occasion I did when I thought I really needed to informalize something, but um, it wasn't wasn't one of my wasn't one of my big things.

SPEAKER_02 15:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:50

Um I remember I remember we did continental shifts, and I remember I do something, I can't remember specifically what it was I did, but I did something a little bit different, let's say, where I had guys working opposite brakes, and um I give them I give them a few bits and pieces to to try and make sure that we cover cover machines like fully on all of the products that we needed to get out. I remember my boss when he came in on the Monday morning was a bit surprised that we had getting everything done that we needed. And um and I said, well, just look at the production plan, I seen that we didn't need that, that, that, and that. So it meant I could not bother running these other machines, and I just used us the other guys to to kind of like fill in for breaks and uh lunch breaks and stuff like that. And he turned around of his and he says, Don't you ever give them a thing? And he was really poked about it. And I'm thinking, hold on, you've literally just come in on a Monday morning and you've asked us how the hell I got all this done, but then on the flip side, you're telling us the way I got it done wasn't the right way. Yeah, and to be honest with me, after that, I I pretty much never took any notice of that guy again. I mean, I worked for him, but I pretty much did my old thing and made sure that what was what was needed to be done was done. But I wasn't gonna be taking any uh human resources advice off him, that was for sure.

SPEAKER_01 17:17

And it's interesting, isn't it? Because I always find this fascinating because it's so clear now how businesses have changed for the better, you know, for me. Yeah, but you know, because that dictatorship type culture is rare, it still happens from time to time, and I still do see it, but people don't stand for it, you know, as much as they they used to because they don't need to ultimately, they'll they'll work for someone else. And it's quite clear, isn't it, that it all came from the top, and it was it was I I imagine a lot of those people manage like that because that was the culture of the business, and that's how they were told to manage. And if they didn't manage like that, they'd be out, and then suddenly you create a culture of that. That is how it is.

SPEAKER_00 17:54

100%. That's why I mean when I've when I've had my my own business, yeah, I've always made sure that the culture within the business um is a more relaxed. Yeah. I mean, I would I would literally say people went before was a supervisor. Um, I would look at the production lines and I would say people like proper Grafton when the supervisor or the manager was there. But then as soon as the supervisor or manager disappeared, you could say the whole atmosphere relaxed. And I'm thinking, well, a good supervisor, a good manager wouldn't have that effect.

SPEAKER_02 18:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:30

It'd work whether you were there or not. And there's a reason why they're probably thinking, well, the pressure's that high when the supervisor's looking over their shoulder, then they literally need some time to try and you know that environment, can it be good for manufacturing?

SPEAKER_02 18:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:48

And it never has been good for manufacturing. Yeah, and that's how you know you end up getting quality issues and stuff like that. But incredible how many people just don't realise that. Um, but you know, it is what it is, and luckily it's a different, it's a different world now.

Moving From Mate To Manager

SPEAKER_01 19:06

I I don't think any any organization works well in the stress. I don't think anyone works well under stress, but yet there's still a lot of organizations that put stress on people to work harder, when typically, you know, I'm sure if there was some science behind it, they would show that people work best when they are less stressed. I, you know, I I appreciate there has to be a level of stress and there has to be a level of of stretch in most professions, particularly uh, you know, particularly technical roles or difficult positions. But yeah, I look, I I it's great to hear someone who understands the value of that, understands the value of the culture. And you're probably uh well ahead of your time with that, because that's for me something I've only seen over the last sort of 10 years, really, where I've seen companies readopt that. Um you mentioned the the super, the engineer, you know, the shop floor to supervisor, and you'd just touch on that communication point. What advice would you have for people who have been made or into a management role without the experience and do have that concern that they're suddenly they've got to manage their you know their pals in some situations because they have been pals for so long, the colleagues. How do you what advice do you give to someone who's going through that process, do you think?

SPEAKER_00 20:17

Don't change overnight. It's as simple as that. I mean, if you flip from one to the other, like literally overnight, then you're you're gonna have problems. Yeah, it's as simple as that. Um you've got to have a transition period, give yourself some time to to come to terms with what it is that you need to do because at the end of the day, it you're gonna be learning yourself. Um so that's that's pretty much the best best uh advice I could give. Just try and give yourself some time. Yeah, don't change, don't think that you're gonna become this big, high, and mighty boss overnight. I would like to think that if somebody's thought enough of you to give you that job, then you're not gonna be like that anyway. But um, it's important that, like I said before, you know, you take people with you rather than bark out orders and all of a sudden you're this tyrant.

SPEAKER_01 21:09

Yeah, it's interesting because often when we ask people, you know, we when we're working with people how they like to be managed, a lot often the responses are the managers that give them respect, they give them autonomy, they give them trust. Do you know what I mean? It's not the necessary the managers that are very straight-talky manager, it's it's the ones that they respect, and that respect goes both ways ultimately.

Manufacturing Leaders Summit Charity Plug

SPEAKER_00 21:35

And and 100%, 100%. I mean, uh would regardless of what you're doing, regardless, you need to earn respect. You're not just gonna get it because you've got a title of manager and director, or whatever your job title is. Yeah. Um I think you're dealing you're dealing with different different people now. Shop floor, um, to the large extent. Has changed massively over the last 20, 30, 40 years. Um, I mean, I hated it when there was when it was quite unionized. Remember, I worked for a Japanese company um and they had a union, it was very unionized. Um but it was it was crazy because the people themselves actually weren't that that worried about the union, it was more the union reps that were worried about it. Um so I found that I was always at loggerheads with the the local union rep. I'm not name him, he's probably still kicking around somewhere. Um but I used to have a huge problem with him. He used to refer to the staff as his girls. And I said I used to really get my uh coat up and I said you're so condescending. Just just just if they're anybody's girls, by the way, they're my girls. They work for me every day of every week. You pop in once a fortnight for have a chat with them, and and he was saying you're just trying to to um stop me doing my job. I said, I'm actually not, I'm really not. But my job is to try and keep you out of here. Yeah, the only reason you should come in here is if I have failed in my job, if I've done something that people aren't happy with. It's my job to keep these happy. It's my job to make sure that there isn't any HR issues. Only you come in if I'm not if I'm not doing what I'm doing, what I need to do properly. Anyway, he actually sent a formal letter complaining because I was only 27 at the time, and he sent a letter in to the um the VP, a Japanese guy, and he referred to this as a uh a jumped up young upstart. And uh I thought that was brilliant, that absolutely brilliant. But in fairness to him, it wasn't until later on I'd realised, I mean, he'd he'd spent a lot of a lot of his years working in the shipyards, so he was very old school, yeah. Um it was I had some really interesting situations with him, um, but it got to the point where he just I think he felt like he was being pushed out, yeah. Yeah, because there wasn't any issues to discuss when he was going in and everybody was saying, well, actually, it's been fine. And I, you know, I think he was a bit disappointed. They'd have a job to do, yeah, it makes perfect sense.

Why He Started His Own Business

SPEAKER_01 24:37

Apologies for interrupting this podcast. Very briefly, to tell you about the Manufacturing Leaders Summit, an event I've been wanting to organise for quite some time, and we finally done it with New College Durham, April the 30th, 2026. All money raised goes to Red Sky Foundation, a charity extremely close to my heart that I've raised money for over the last five years after losing my dad to a cardiac arrest. It's an amazing charity, and you actually see the effects of the money raised, you'll see the defibrillators going and around the area. The day's gonna be amazing. We've got speakers who are TED talkers, we've got um ex-Olympian, we've got um authors, all around leadership mentality and manufacturing engineering. We've got an amazing panel of people. We're gonna talk about getting helping young people get into engineering, and then we've got eight different workshops to choose from. It's gonna be an amazing event, all around adding value back to manufacturing. Ideally, 180 to 200 people are gonna be there on the day, and it's a great opportunity to network with um like-minded people, other manufacturing leaders. So please, please attend. Ticket prices are a suggested 15 pound donation when you sign up via Ventbrite, and we really want you to be there. Tickets are going fast, workshops are getting filled up fast, so please make sure you click the link, which we'll put in the comment section as well. Click the link, share it with anyone else you think could be keen, and I can't wait to see you there. Thank you very much. A lot of people get to uh a role in the business, and perhaps a very senior role in the business, where you think I could do this myself, but not many people act on that, very, very small percentage of people act on that and take the risk and the leap to start their own business. You did what did it take for you to do that? Was it uh an opportunity you saw, or you know what led you to doing what you did?

SPEAKER_00 26:25

Um bad management, okay, really bad management. If can say I I worked at this Japanese company and took the place. I mean, I don't want to say it was a nightmare, it was an absolute bunch of raveling when we first started. So I did have to like pull a few strings when I was there. Um at the beginning, at the very start, I wasn't the most popular bloke in the world. Um, but there was absolutely zero discipline in the place, you know. I mean, I mean, literally, we're playing kiddies' games on a Friday morning, yeah, uh, water bone fights and stuff like that. And it was like incredible. I've never seen anything like it before in my life. But then um we got that to a point where we went from like 40 odd people to a couple of hundred staff, and then uh had to get it back. I paid off over a hundred people, and then I got made redundant. Fast forward to my light earned days when I worked at I worked at Lighturne for um seven or eight years, took that place. We had 45 direct employees when I started there, and we're peaked at just over 400. But then for my sins, I was actually tasked with um transferring manufacturing of some of our bigger customers to China. Um well, I might have been a bit naive, but I didn't didn't think for one minute it it was gonna have such a dramatic effect because we had took the business up to 67 million um within like three or four years, and we were very, very profitable. Um, but anyhow, eventually the powers would be in Taiwan um they had to decided that you know they wanted to stop manufacturing more stuff in China. Um, I think the direct cost of sale was about one and a half percent in China, where it was somewhere between 10 and 11 percent over here. Um, and then I had shown them that it was how simple it was to move manufacturing into China, you know, making sure you had good supply chain, um, making sure you had no had competent processes in the companies who are using, making sure they were reliable, and they weren't gonna be fly by night and they weren't gonna change where they were being manufactured. Um I ended up, I must have paid off about 250 people, or possibly more than that, made them redundant, and then I got the bullet. Um and that was and I'm not joking, right? It was just it was like this is this is poor management. You've got a fantastic organization with fantastic people, you've invested heavily in manufacture equipment, you're making good profit, the business is very, very sustainable, but you want to make another five or six or seven percent by moving manufacturing to China. I just saw that as being very narrow-minded.

SPEAKER_02 29:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:28

The finance director, um, he was a bean counter, a glorified bean counter. He wasn't that bothered, to be honest with you. The chief executive at the time had went off on a he was on a crusade on his own, he had his own agenda, looking at you know, getting his MBEs or his OBEs or whatever, and uh and left left it all behind. And I thought, nah, I'm not getting back. If I'm if I'm gonna I mean, I was 40, I think I was about 40 years old at the time, and I'm thinking I have another 25 years of work at least. You know, I'm not gonna have my life dependent on people like that.

SPEAKER_02 30:08

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 30:09

No, I want to try and run my business and run it properly. Um, and that was where it went, that's where it came from. Uh, and it's worked out luckily very, very well.

Patience And Selling In The Early Days

SPEAKER_01 30:19

Yeah, the uh and and and we talk about entrepreneurship. This is this is where the why our economy is propped up by by SMEs, because people like you and I take the risk, see the opportunity, take the risk, and and that is the frustrating part when the budgets come out and the government don't exactly look favourably on SMEs and the people that prop up the economy, essentially. But you have you've you've built you know brilliant businesses in in difficult, difficult industries and difficult times, you know, no more so probably the last 10 years where there's been black swan event after black swan event and however many barriers we've had to have. What what's been I mean what what were the early lessons for you, the first five years of of owning and growing a business? What were the key lessons you had to take and and hit ya?

SPEAKER_00 31:10

Um I think a lot of it with me was uh patience.

unknown 31:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 31:15

Um, because I am not a salesman, you know. If you want to sit down and talk about getting a job done, then fine, I'm your man. I'll sit down, I'll work out all the pros and cons and what needs to be done, when it needs to be done, all the bits and pieces like that processes that we need to look at. But if you're wanting me to try and sell you something, I used to I used to pick the phone up and talk to people in the early days, and I just couldn't do it. I mean, I just didn't have wasn't comfortable for you. If somebody put if somebody put a barrier up and then I would just say, oh, okay, no problem.

SPEAKER_02 31:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:52

And move on. Um and then if I thought I had somebody on the hook, I kind of like assumed it was gonna happen the next day or the following day or the following day or the following day. And you, you know, sometimes I would have to work with people for months. And you know, I've worked with customer, potential customers, for like a couple of years before I've getting business off them. And it's a harsh lesson to learn that people don't move in the same time scales as you do. Because like if I if you say to me, like, Mom, I needed something done for next Monday, then okay, yeah, I'll get it done for next Monday.

SPEAKER_02 32:33

Yeah, that was it.

SPEAKER_00 32:34

That's it, that's it. You just do it, you have it happens. Um, but everybody doesn't work like that. So that was one of my biggest challenges because there wasn't any buffer, there wasn't anybody I could turn to, there wasn't anybody I could pass the job to, yeah. Can you give these guys a ring in a couple of days' time or a couple of weeks' time? And you know, the number of times I would go running with my wife, and uh I mean, we used to run every single night, and and I'd you know, it'd be night after night after night. And I would say to Carol, if this doesn't kick off in the next few months, I'm just gonna wrap and get a job. And she would say, just stick at it, you know, you've got you've got zero patience, just stick at it and it will work. And it's like, oh, but I I feel like I used to say often I felt like I was playing at having a business because I didn't feel like I was actually doing anything substantial.

SPEAKER_02 33:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:32

Um, but then you know, once I started getting a customer here and there, and um it just took off. Um, and like I think I told you the last time we spoke, um I'm a very hands-on type of person, so it didn't bother me in the least sitting hand assembling PCBs on my own and hand soldering them. Didn't bother me in the least, it was just what you had to do. Um if you sat, I mean I've seen me sitting at like nine o'clock on a Sunday night putting PCBs in the little plastic boxes and screwing them in because I had to deliver them on the Monday. And it's just you do what you have to do. Um, so I mean I again I I I've absolutely loved it, but I've had some I had some fairly hair-raising times, but I can't say I haven't thoroughly enjoyed my whole career.

SPEAKER_01 34:25

Yeah, it it is it I and I love these sort of conversations because I just well, I can resonate with them and I find them fascinating. And and uh because when you first start a business, you're everything, aren't you? You're everything to you you're everything, you know what I mean? You had different every hat, and then as soon as you start hiring, you're everything to everyone. Do you know what I mean? You're the person that tries to fix everything for them. And and likewise, I I I took probably seven years to realize that I don't really enjoy management. Do you know what I mean? And I I beat myself up about it and tried to get better at it, and I did get better at it, but it it's not it was only when I understood what I enjoyed doing, which was the the sales side and the client side, actually for me, I create I started to create a business that I wanted to work in. I was almost you almost become a very easy to become a slave to your own business sometimes, and yeah, and you you'd probably enjoy the day-to-day of working in a in a different job, but you don't do it because you're the one creating it. But it's it's just a very harsh, uh but obvious lesson people typically do learn too late because you just you do what you've got to do, aren't you, to get things done? It's as simple as that.

SPEAKER_00 35:34

Yeah, I think I think when uh I mean from my experience anyway, I think some of the biggest decisions I've had to make, or some of the most important decisions I've had to make, um was like you just said before, you you know, when you start a business off, you literally do everything. You know, I mean I I've seen me sitting building PCBs, I eventually got a floor solar machine, I would be I would be cleaning out the floor solar machine, I would be well taking the emptying the bins to the skip, the local, the local um waste management place. Anything, you name it, but buying all the components. But was there wasn't anybody else to do it, so you just get on with it.

SPEAKER_02 36:17

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 36:17

And I think the the critical decision is when are you in a position where you can actually bring somebody in.

SPEAKER_02 36:25

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 36:26

You've got to pick something out, something out specific that you haven't got time for now. What's the easiest bits to start passing on? How do you do it? You haven't got the money to bring in a purchasing manager, you've got to bring somebody in, which is what I did. I brought somebody in, taught them, you know, taught them how to answer the phone, how to know how to be a receptionist, how to buy components, how to source components, where to find them, how to put a bill of material together, how to cost a bomb, all that types of things. But when you're not really sure whether you've got enough money in the business, getting that balance right, because what ends up happening is, and it happened to me a couple of times, you've only got enough money to pay, you've got five staff, and you've only got enough money to pay four. The one person that's not gonna get paid, who's that?

SPEAKER_01 37:23

Exactly that. 100%, it's always us.

SPEAKER_00 37:25

Right. Yeah, so you know, but the thing is, it's making it's making the getting the timing of answering those questions and getting the recruitment right. And because you were never in a position to buy in the finished article, you're always gonna have to, well, certainly I was, uh, was the best decision I made was bringing young people in and training them. Because it means you're not paying top dollar and you can give them the time to develop. I mean, uh, as it happens, that the person I brought in to train on um on purchasing was is actually my stepdaughter, and she's still with me today. She's my operations director at Arian. Brought in a guy to learn production, production engineering originally, but he's now my production manager. He was 16 when he started working for me, and I think Sean's 34, 35 now. He's been with us all of pretty much all of his employed life. Um, and there, your biggest achievements, I think, because these guys have come through, you know, they've learned the hard way. Um, fair enough, they might have learned my way, but it's not the bad, it's clearly not a bad way. Um and it was luckily I got the timing right, I got it right, you know, which what happens if you get it wrong? You know, you're screwing somebody around, you know, you you haven't got enough business to pay them, you know, you've got enough work for them for three months, and then that goes away. It's it's it's not an easy, it's not an easy road. Uh you've just got to accept the fact that some days you might not get paid.

SPEAKER_02 39:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:16

Yeah, I completely agree. What surprised you most about growing a business? Because there's one thing getting, like you say, from from that just you to five, which is really hard. But there's another thing when you're talking about real growth in a business where you're going from you know five to twenty, twenty-five. That's a different, that's a different type of strategy. What what surprised you the most, would you say?

Recession Decisions And Shockproofing The Business

SPEAKER_00 39:40

Well, I think you get surprised pretty much every day. There's always something, you know. I mean, one of your biggest pitfalls is sit back on your backside and think you've you know you've you know everything. Yeah, yeah, because there's always something. I mean, you know, who who thought that covert was around the corner? Um, and meaning the list just goes on and on and on, you know. Um even like now you've got the Ukraine war and then you've got Iraq, the Iraq war. And that's always something challenge. Yeah, I'm just waiting on this one now, giving us problems with the um supply chain. There's no doubt we'll get problems with supply chain. Um but I think you've you've just got to be very responsive. I don't think there's ever, you know, I don't think there's ever any any like one perfect answer to the question. I think when something happens, you've got to sit and say, I mean the thing is you can't do nothing. Because if you do nothing, then you're you're heading of oblivion, basically.

unknown 40:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:50

I think you've just got to make sure you sit down, analyze all the pros and cons, and then make a decision and do something. I'd rather if you did something and did it incorrectly or just did nothing, because you're always gonna get it wrong if you do nothing. Um I remember when we had in 2008 when we had the uh I mean that was mad, absolutely mad. Overnight, wasn't it? Um just everybody was tightening their belts and um I had actually done quite well 2007. Uh we had grown the business. Um, I think I'd done about 1.5 million, which was fantastic for us. Um, considering we had only really started, I started business in 2002, but we had only started trading properly uh around about 2003-04, something like that. Um and I had a couple of really good customers on the on the hook, but they were telling us that I was too small in the middle of a tr in the middle of a uh recession, and I ended up moving factory. Um I invested half a million quid in the business um and prepared it for when we came out of the recession. And that was probably the best decision I could have made at that time because if I hadn't, I would have had to cut me cloth. Yeah, and at that stage, if I had started cutting cloth, then I probably wouldn't have made it back. I would have been offloading staff, and you know, I think I don't think I would have recovered from it. And like many businesses did, a lot of businesses went to the pan.

SPEAKER_02 42:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:30

Um, invested, but more manufacturing equipment, moved into the factory that was about five times the size of the original one. Got ready for when we came out of the recession. When we came out of the recession, these luckily, I mean, I keep saying lucky, I think there was a fine balance. There's a fine balance. You have got to have the rubber the green. Um, and these customers were true to their wood. They came back, I got big orders off them, and the business just went from strength to strength. Um, six years later, um now I earned six million turnover uh and selling a business for a fistful of dollars.

SPEAKER_01 43:09

Yeah. Um brilliant. And and I think there's some there's loads of advice there, but I think the big the big one for me was that make a decision. Do you know what I mean, Leb? Because you're absolutely right. You know, all these things happen, and you've just got to make it, you know. I think sometimes there's the stress of being being the leader that you've got to know the answers. But actually, you can make decisions sometimes without necessarily knowing the answer, you've just got to do something because people are so there watching.

Staying Calm On The Shop Floor

SPEAKER_00 43:37

100%. 100%. Yeah. And one thing I have noticed as well, and and um luckily I've never done this. I'm not sure how how I caught down to this, but it might have been seeing some manager stressed out one day. But if you're walking around your shop floor and your face is like thunder, or you're looking stressed to the hill. Everybody says that. Everybody. And couldn't care less what you look like in the office. If you're if you're in TS, if you're fuming about something, or you're upset about something, sit in the office and get it off your chest, do what you need to do. But once you set foot outside your office, jump upside down, spin your head around, and get back out there and look as though you're in control. Look as though you're actually happy. Look as though you're relaxed about things. Because people cannot see how that's why you're a leader, I suppose, at the end of the day. You can't allow these people to see you on your bad day.

SPEAKER_02 44:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:38

Um and I like I say, I've seen numerous occasions where you've got guys like flipping and screaming and ratting a rave and on a short floor because they're stressed. Well, that's your stress.

unknown 44:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:51

That's not somebody else's stress. You didn't pass that stress to anybody else. Yeah. That's your job.

SPEAKER_02 44:56

100%.

SPEAKER_01 44:57

To uh and and I've fully enjoyed this, but to close it, what what would you say? Guess two, Chris Ray. What would you say you're most proud of? You know, when you when you finally, when your last day in business finally comes and you think back and reflect on all the years and everything you've achieved, and you've built an amazing business there in. What will you be most proud of, do you think?

SPEAKER_00 45:21

Well a few things to be honest with you. Um I mean, mentioning Jennifer and Sean working with me since they were 16, uh, and like and they're so competent, they are so good at their job. Um when we're sitting in meetings, it's incredible how proud you can feel when you listen to them talking because they really, really know their stuff. And I don't know, I mean, I I don't know if anybody ever notices, but sometimes I actually sit back in meetings and just listen to them talking, and I think God, I was so proud. Um, which is you know, but I've still got ambitions. I've still got ambitions. I mean I was very calculated when I sold my shares in this business. Um because I wouldn't say I'm obsessed with it, but I'm not getting any younger. Um, but I I kind of in the tight of mind I've got I kind of just do nothing.

SPEAKER_02 46:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:19

But the company that I've sold the shares to, uh, they want me to be involved in the business as long as I want to be involved in it. And there will come a time when I can pass the business on properly in a structured way when I'm happy. We've got the financial support now. I mean, we're looking at all sorts of stuff, building a new factory, um, acquisitions, we're looking at new customers, left, right, and centre. There's so much activity now. It's it's so exciting. But I want to leave a legacy. When I pack in, I want that factory to still be working, still be serving, still be creating jobs, still be able to help people earn a crust when I'm dead and buried. That's important to me.

SPEAKER_01 47:09

Amazing. And look, that's uh such a good way to close. And and look, thank you for this. I I've been I've thoroughly enjoyed it for many reasons, maybe because I've there's loads of lessons I've I've learned, and and I guess I always take a bit of time at this stage just to sort of think about that. And I think for me, you know, a big key part of everything you've done and your management style and how you obviously work with people has been communication. Do you know what I mean? I think that's a it's a lesson for people that just treat people like humans and communicate, communicate with them properly, communicate about what you're thinking. It doesn't have to be a this dictatorship, do as I say, because you've obviously you've built a and a career and businesses from doing this, and you've worked with people, and there's a massive key lesson for people for people that because I think people stress themselves out so much that they need to be this certain leader and the leader that they've seen elsewhere, or the read books about where if you just be yourself and be authentic, people will follow you, and if you work with people, they will they'll work with you, and that's a a key lesson for me. But look, for someone who has also built a business and gone through that those similar experiences where you you are the last to be to be paid and not paid at some times, to but actually you also are the one that has all the excitement and you make decisions and and you know and what you're you're leaving behind, long way to go, you know, in terms of you know, you've got many years left, like you said, but your path is the exact path I love to go from. Do you know what I mean? So I've taken a lot of inspiration off the back of that. That um, you know, you will you don't just want to leave and go off in the sunset, you want to leave a proper legacy behind you from all the work you've done. And um, no, but so so so thank you, man. This has been a uh a real opportunity is for me. So so I really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 48:59

There's one final thing I'd like to like to share with you, which is a bit of a um it's a I found it a bit of a frustration when I hear people talking about mental health. Everything I've spoken to you about now, um since I was 28 years old, up until about five years ago, uh suffered with severe anxiety. Um eventually eventually developed into um depression and anxiety and I've managed to come through all of that, never had any time off work, always stuck in. I used to, in fairness, man, I used to find when I was at my busiest, I was probably at my most relaxed. But I think as a message in there when it comes to mental health, that people tend to think that if there's an issue with everybody's got a level of mental health, whether it's whether it's good mental health or bad mental health, everybody's got it, whether we like it or not. And that's that's areas in the uh not just in this country, but a lot of a lot of uh the populace that thinks the best thing to do is to do nothing and sit in bed all day, and it's definitely not. Definitely not. You can hold a job down and forge a great career, even if you have issues.

SPEAKER_02 50:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:34

And that tremendous advice, and and again, look, I I I resonate with that. I'm someone also that struggles struggle uh with anxiety, you know, and I think like you say, it's not something you just have then don't. I think mental health is it's mental health is the same as physical health. It goes up, it goes down. You need to manage it daily and and weekly to to keep things at bay. And often it doesn't matter what role someone does, someone can work on the shop floor and someone could own the whole business. Everyone has some level of anxiety on mental health, don't they? I think that's important to recognise that even leads of businesses, you know, we have real, real worries that can develop into real issues. Um so so no, I thank and and thank you for sharing that because that alone will help a lot of people who you know struggle and battled and and continue to for this type of stuff. And the more people talk about this, the the more it helps people because it is a real problem. It's a real problem and uh a huge problem in manufacturing, which is mainly populated by men. And the data tells us that you know traditionally is young men. We actually do a uh a charity walk um every year. We've done it for the last four years, um, called Manufacturers Ramble On. And uh we do a 10k walk from Suit Lighthouse um to Roker and back, just 10K, and uh we have a few speakers who specialise in this type of stuff, and we just they talk about it, or they stop people every now and again, and they get people talking about mental health and and all that type of stuff. And it's really we know what's just great, just a group of people who are going for a walk and just talking to people they might not know. And I just think and but it gets back to like people are out there going for a walk and doing something, and and you know, I completely agree, you've got to you've got to just keep on going and understand that other people have these problems. So uh so so obviously, you know, you you are welcome, and everyone else listening to this is welcome to come to that. And again, it'll be some point in June. Because I just think we need to do more stuff like this, don't we? Something as that.

SPEAKER_00 52:33

100%. Close at the time, give us a shout because it is a something it is something I would be like I would like to support in some way.

Final Thanks And How To Support

SPEAKER_01 52:40

Yeah, 100%. Thank you so much for listening or watching this episode of the Manufacturing Leaders podcast. Please just like or subscribe, it really helps grow the show and obviously improve the industry. If you want any more information about Theo James, as I mentioned midway through the episode, please get in touch with me or the team. I would love to talk about how it can help you directly or your business. We are more than just a recruiter, and I know people say that, but it's something I'm incredibly passionate about. We are in business for much more than just a bums on seats approach. We want to help people grow, we want to help improve their lives, and ultimately I want to work with businesses and people who share the same values as we do, and that's something I'm incredibly passionate about. So please, if that is you and you are passionate about that dream role or passionate about your people, please get in touch with me or the team. I would absolutely love to talk a bit more detail. Thank you very much. Speak soon.