The Reality of Startup Life in Manufacturing & Engineering

In the latest episode of the Manufacturing Leaders Podcast, Mark is joined by Gavin Duffy, CEO and Founder of Zeromachine, a pioneering business at the forefront of hydrogen-powered heavy machinery and sustainable engineering innovation.

With more than 30 years of experience across automotive, electrical engineering, and off-road vehicle electrification, Gavin shares the journey that led him from hands-on engineering roles to launching a company focused on transforming the future of construction machinery through hydrogen fuel cell technology.

Together, Mark and Gavin explore the realities of building a business within a rapidly evolving industry, discussing the challenges of innovation, entrepreneurship, and creating sustainable solutions that can genuinely impact the future of manufacturing and construction.

Alongside the technical innovation, Gavin speaks openly about leadership, company culture, and the importance of building a business where collaboration, openness, and shared vision are at the centre. 

He discusses the pressures of startup life, the challenges of securing investment within engineering-led businesses, and the lessons he’s learned while scaling Zero Machine.

From sustainable supply chains to the future of clean energy in heavy industry, this episode is packed with valuable insights for leaders, engineers, innovators, and anyone interested in the future of manufacturing.

This is a conversation about innovation, resilience, leadership, and building the technologies that could shape the future of industry.

Please like and subscribe - it genuinely helps grow the show and, in turn, helps push the industry forward.

Theo James is a Manufacturing & Engineering Recruiter based in the North East, helping Manufacturing and Engineering firms grow across the UK. 

If you’d like more information about Theo James, feel free to get in touch with the team or Mark anytime.

You can call us on 0191 511 1298. 

Transcript

Welcome And Why Gavin Matters

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hello, welcome to another episode of the Manufacturing Leaders podcast with me, Mark Bracknell, my narrator of Theo Jane's Recruitment. Today, welcoming on Gavin Duffy, the CEO and founder of Xero Machine Basin Blythe. I first met Gavin a few weeks ago when he won the newcomer of the year, the Insider Media Made Northeast Awards. So I couldn't wait to have him on the show. We talked about so much in this episode. We talked about the business, Zero Machine, and exactly what they do within the world of hydrogen. We debunked or he debunked some myths around hydrogen, electric vehicles, and some common misconceptions. We got quite political at times. Gavin talks in detail about exactly what was needed from the government or vision needed to really support this industry. And what was really interesting was how excited he is about the industry. And actually, he believes we are absolutely sitting in a gold mine as a nation which could massively accelerate our economy. So we talk in detail about that, but he also talked so passionately about the business, about the future, about what's needed to create a business which he feels could be as big as the JCB. And I loved how passionate Gavin was and how detailed he was about this, to talk about proper British engineering and actually what that would do to blithe to the Northeast and the UK economy. So this is an episode that you're going to enjoy if you're a leader, you're going to enjoy if you are a business owner, a startup. And it's the real-world examples of exactly what is needed and how much is needed to get businesses like this going. It was a privilege to interview Gavin because I really felt like I was interviewing someone which is on the cusp of something absolutely brilliant. And I've got no doubt I'm going to look back in 10 years' time at this podcast and go, I had that man in the podcast and look what the business has done. So please sit back and listen and enjoy the episode. Please, please, as ever, please subscribe and like the show. It massively helps grow the channel. Thank you very much. I hope you enjoy the episode. So a massive warm welcome today to uh Gavin Duffy, the uh CEO and founder of Zero Machines. How are you doing? Gavin, all right?

SPEAKER_02 2:03

I'm all right. I'm all right. I'll correct your monit Zero Machine. Zero Machine. Not no S.

SPEAKER_00 2:08

Apologies. I'm presuming I'm not the first to do that. You're not the first. You're not the first. So um loads of things to ask you. I'm really fascinated by the business. But the first question is the same question I ask everyone that comes on, which is what does it mean to you to be a leader?

SPEAKER_02 2:27

It's an interesting question because I've never thought of myself as a leader. A technical leader, yes. Um, but I realize now you know, when you start your own business, that's it, you're in that position. Um so there's a massive sense of responsibility. Um that's probably the heaviest weight on your shoulders because the the book doesn't go anywhere bar you. Yeah, it stops with you. Um, and I felt this throughout my career because you you end up in it's I suppose in a way when I look back, I've tended to naturally take the lead. Um yeah, I'm one of those annoying people. Um but I I've tended to naturally take the lead, and but part of it, I think I think a good leader is one who doesn't put themselves first. So ego, you you take ego out the equation. Um, you're there to make the decisions, um, but you're also there to delegate and work as part of a part of a team, as part of a group. Yeah. And the best style of leadership I've ever seen was where the leadership on a particular project was actually fluid. It was whoever had the better handle on the problem we were dealing with at the time, right? You know what you're doing, you run with it.

unknown 4:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:09

And then it would swap back and it would float between the sort of, you know, your uh mechanical engineering lead, the electrical engineer leaders, me and project lead uh and hydraulics guys and production guys and operational people, and it was that sort of being able to balance that and and share that load, and it's very much this the sharing of the load. Um, but as a leader, it it it is also knowing when to take control, yeah, um, and when to recognize, particularly with engineers, like folks, we're starting to drift off here, and it's all very nice, but we're we're in danger of hitting scope creep here. And I know we can do X, Y, and Z, and that would be great, but they're gonna have to wait till the next iteration. We've got a deadline to meet, and I you know that's but that's more technical leadership. Um, I think it the primary one is it means just being human, yeah, yeah, and admitting that you are fallible, nobody knows you you don't know everything, you you can't be expected to, and and it's allowing the people that you're leading to shine as well.

SPEAKER_00 5:28

And what's interesting, actually, what you're talking about there is is that that collaboration piece because that is fascinating. That because I a lot of people I've spoken to, a lot of books I've read, it talks about that facilitation that the good leaders can facilitate those environments that people are in a flow state and they're they're they're trusted to have a voice. And I think that's a real skills leader, isn't it? That to not always take over, but create an environment that you can facilitate and get the best out of people where people actually feel comfortable that they can challenge and suggest.

SPEAKER_02 6:02

Very much so. So it's part of the thing. I think the other thing about leadership is you've got to have a very strong vision. They don't build statues to committees, is the the you know that that old chestnut of a saying. Um, you've got to have a very clear vision, but you've got to allow yourself to be challenged on that vision. Um and I and I mean I've been absolutely I've seen absolutely locked in on a on a problem and going, yeah, we're going down this route. And you've had people saying, I don't agree with this, I don't like. If you can actually, and what I found was if you could present a logical, coherent argument, then what people actually would see is me pivot mid-track, literally go, right, okay, that makes far more sense. Spend about maybe 10-15 minutes just thinking it through and then go, yeah, we're doing this. Yeah, not a complete pivot, you know, but all right, okay, yeah, we were starting. I recognize now we were heading down a dead end with that. We're just gonna backtrack and we're gonna go down here because this is more viable, this is more commercially viable. This gets us to because I think a lot of especially RD engineers forget that there is a commercial aim at the end of this, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:31

Which again also links perfectly into that human, that humility approach, because yeah, not every leader is is comfortable with going, oh, I'm I'm wrong here, or that this right let's pivot into this. Yeah, that's that that in itself is a real skill. We uh me and my wife watched The Apprentice, and um, I know a lot of it's edited for for uh entertainment, but you you see those report project managers every week, the ones that just take control and their idea is the idea, and they don't listen to anyone, and it's it's interesting seeing that sometimes.

SPEAKER_02 7:57

Yeah, it's um I think leadership is you're running a democracy within a benevolent dictatorship. Yeah, in essence, yeah, it it it's because at the end of the day, you've got to take the decision, you know. Um it's it's a challenge, but I I think you've also got to so you've also got to be prepared to a be humble, but b, admit when you don't know something, yeah. And if nobody else knows something, then the book comes back to you and it is right, I'll go away and find out about this, I'll do this. If nobody else has a better angle on this, it's then the book stops with you.

The Solo Founder Mental Load

SPEAKER_00 8:44

Yeah, you're right, you exactly right, because again, there is one thing having a skill set to facilitate the environment for people's suggestions, but you've as a leader, you've ultimately got to come to a conclusion where that's one person's answer or a collab, a collaborative view, you've got to be the one to make a decision, and that's is if that is a skill not every good facilitator have, and it's just it just shows how challenging leadership can be, but actually, how you know why right the reason love it because obviously you've got to wear so many hats. How how have you found being a leader of you and not you know not having someone to to lead? Because I I struggle with that when I first started the business. I struggle with not having a manager. I I like that accountability.

SPEAKER_02 9:25

It's how have you found that challenging because I am, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:32

I I wouldn't employ me for most entrepreneurs are unemployable to be fair, so yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:38

Yeah, it's um you're dealing with a load of challenge with a lot of challenges. Yeah, you've got that personal challenge, you've got the financial challenge, you have got and I think what people forget a lot is that personal sort of assault on you, on your mental health, on and I mean there's days when you're just not motivated, you are just you're looking at the bank balance and you're just face palming and going, how the hell do I get out of this? And what nobody explains is that that potentially can go on for a week or so. That can go on, you know, yeah. And and when you're on your own, you don't have that that you've got to literally write, okay, we'll reset, we'll go back in. Um but it's not having that person apart from you know my partner to to bounce that off. Yeah. Um because a lot of my my close friends, um I mean they think I'm on Planet Zanusi. You know, I'm I'm a I'm on a different thing.

SPEAKER_00 11:06

If it was easy, everyone would do it.

SPEAKER_02 11:07

Yeah. Um and and the other one is is is also throttling yourself back because I can have extremely creative moments where there's innovation after innovation after innovation. Oh, we can do this, oh we can do and it's no, no, no. Concentrate on this. What is going to get revenue in the door now? Yeah or as soon as possible rather than sort of extending the timeline. And it it it's it's things like when you're doing the financial modeling, the business plan for the for the umpteenth iteration, because these are these are all living documents, so to speak. And you're kind of going rolling your eyes and you're going, oh, here we go again. Um and I mean sometimes your financial model, your business plan is a it's an evolution. And then other times you suddenly realize no, this is a complete rewrite because what I've done to get to revenue early, yeah, earlier, is you know, wouldn't we now so we've actually recently discovered that we have a neat near-term product available, and I think hanging on to it for IP's protection state and and keeping it as a secret source, no, no, actually, what we're dealing with is a fairly dumb box, but it allows us to sandbox the business, it allows us to potentially bring people in earlier than we were thinking of doing, it's more attractive to investment because we're in revenue, you know. Um, because I mean we're building telehandlers, and you don't exactly build one of them in the in the spare bedroom.

Newcomer Award And Company Origins

SPEAKER_00 13:11

And I mean, I've looked at uh I look at the guys who are, you know, the lads and lasses who are doing digital, who are working with software or are make working with small handheld devices or whatever, and it's just I wish because they can say it'd probably be good actually, but it's on to it give you an opportunity for people who don't know to tell actually about tell people about Zoom Machine. So just to rewind, I guess, a little bit. So we um I first obviously came across you and Zoom Machine after um so we sponsored the Maiden Maiden Northeast Awards uh that insider media put on, and uh obviously you won the newcomer of the year, which was uh an amazing award to win. Actually, it's it's it's the first time they've done that award, it's a great award because it gives people like yourself a platform because you need exactly what you're talking about there, you're talking about investment, you're talking about, and this is what the economy needs, it needs eyes on on companies like you to be to be able to flourish because it's not bloody easy out there. So I was I was I loved it when I saw that award, it was great, and uh, and I also loved how passionate and pleased, and and you just seem shocked and so humbled to win that award. Um, and so tell us a little bit about A what it was like win that, and B a little bit about the business gaving for people who don't know if that's all right.

SPEAKER_02 14:26

Yeah, certainly. Um, so the award I was absolutely ghostmated because I mean I I um when you're a newcomer, you work you're kind of in the same ecosystem as the other the other you know nominees in in that category. Um, so I know Mitch Stephen Mitchell from SQDB SQCDP. Yeah, um, I know him very well because he he's come through the Royal Academy of Engineering's regional talent engine program, same as me. He was the cohort before he's the fantastic accelerator program to come through. Um, and I I know vaguely know Joanne as well, and I thought, yeah, I'm just turning up here just for the free meal. Um, and I was genuinely absolutely gobsmacked. Um, the table I was sat at, um, I'm trying to think of his name, Colin from Springwell Northeast. Um, he was sat and I was just videoing it, and literally the phone got slung to him. Um but yeah, I was genuinely shocked, and it it's it's made a big difference. Uh and and more importantly, you suddenly realize, you know, crikey, I'm going on to represent the Northeast at the National Awards, and that's that's a lot of weight on your shoulders there.

SPEAKER_00 15:53

Yeah, what an honor.

SPEAKER_02 15:55

It is. Um, but anyway, so yeah, the award was interesting. But the come down was getting back on the train black to back to Blythe dressed in a kilt.

SPEAKER_00 16:08

Yeah, but yeah. Well, actually, when I when I said to the team before, I've got a podcast at three, it's it's uh who is in? I said, Oh, it's uh Gavin Duffy from uh Zero Machine. Oh, I think they got the kill the Gan the Kilt won the award, is yeah, that's him.

SPEAKER_02 16:19

Yeah, so yeah, so yeah, yeah, but remember does stand out a bit because I I know I don't sound it occasionally comes through. It actually depends on shall we say how much alcohol I have.

SPEAKER_00 16:28

Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:30

Um but yeah, um, but yeah, so zero zero machine is in a nutshell is um I've worked in automotive 30 odd years as an electrical engineer, on or off. There's been forays into industrial engineering and and building automation. Um, I've always been a petrol head at heart, anyway. So um started off in road rallying, um, moved into stage rallying, and I've actually um stage safety officer on uh Killer Forest Rally this weekend. Oh amazing!

SPEAKER_04 17:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:13

Um so still active in the sport. Um, but my love was always cars, tinkering, pulling stuff apart, putting back together again. Um I ended up in electrical engineering, went through predominantly an automotive, always tended to be the most glamorous I got was a design diffuse box for T VR. Um, and that was as close as I got to anything glamorous. Yeah, amazing. Everything all has always been trucks, buses, construction, vehicles, and agriculture. Um, nothing, nothing too glamorous, but it's a real niche of a business. Now, around about four or five years ago, I was um heading up um snorkel's uh electrification program. So this is snorkeling Washington. Um Washington Sunderland, not Washington. They are a multinational, so yeah, it's our Washington, not there, it's the first one. Um there. Um when I came in sort of relatively late in the program, they got the prototype developed um and sort of inherited it and productionised that. And it was always with any sort of new product, there's a few teething troubles, but we we I then took that through and I thought there's always got to be a bit more, and there's always got to be are we going about this the right way? And by one way or another, we we hit a machine that weighed seven and a half tons. So we we got bigger and bigger and bigger as we moved down the model ranges. These are the the big all-wheel drive mobile elevator scissor lifts and mobile elevating work platforms. This was our first articulated boom, and we had a bit of trouble pushing that through, not on the electrical side, it was the mechanical side, it was the hydraulic side. And I thought there's got to be a more efficient way of doing this. Now we got that product over the finish line in the end, and and and it's one I'm really proud of because that was actually my, I suppose, my COVID baby as well. Um, but I realized then I thought seven and a half tons is about the limit for batteries to to give it a useful service, to give it an eight-hour working shift for an eight-hour. And I started thinking on that, and I started to sort of do a bit of research into this, and then came up with the idea of hydrogen fuel cell. These are now available, which was a bit of a revelation to me. You get you get kind of one-tracked into your own little world, and you go, hydrogen fuel cell. Wow, they're available off the shelf. Suggested it. Uh, you can imagine how well that went down with management. You know, we we were then two, three years or two years into a battery electrification program, and it appeared that I was going, right, we need to do this now, with totally unknown technology that most people is space age.

unknown 20:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:09

Um, and and and a brief thing on what a hydrogen fuel cell is you take hydrogen in, it chucks out water, you combine it with air, but you get four four spare electrons roughly, it generates electricity.

SPEAKER_03 20:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 20:23

So you end up with a machine that actually refuels like a diesel 15 minutes from gaseous hydrogen, um, generates its own electricity. It's an EV, it's an evolution of the of an EV. Interesting. And I'd looked at, you know, sort of how do we get this? Do I just design the system or not? And I start to look at the telehandlers, and I realized nobody's really electrifying a telehandler. What electric telephone telehandlers are out there are small, tend to be slow.

SPEAKER_00 21:00

I was gonna say, because I imagine the weight of it is the is the is the issue.

SPEAKER_02 21:04

It it's the it's not so much the weight, it's the duty cycle.

SPEAKER_00 21:08

Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:09

So weight in anything that lifts. So if you're lifting a man, if you're lifting loads, weight is actually not a bad thing.

SPEAKER_01 21:16

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 21:19

You're stable. Um and it was I we we you know, I sort of realized nobody electrifies them because they're their duty cycle. Telehandlers on a building site or on a farm tend to have two speeds, it's either flat out, yeah, or they're stationary, which is really hard to electrify. So I do like a challenge. Um and as I start to cogitate that, and the idea came into fruition, um, and the the tech kind of really started to coalesce in my mind. Um I I left Snorkel out. I was working for a Dutch subsidiary of a UK company, um, heading up their off-road, their four by four electrification program. It was a scale up, things weren't going well. But you know, little things like not paying you and things like this. But I had big boy pants on, you go into a scale-up, you know that things could be a bit sketchy. Um, and then threats of redundancy start to come about, they were laying people off, and that was when I saw the Royal Academy of Engineering's regional talent engine program came up on LinkedIn. So I applied, and that really focused my thinking to think of it as a business rather than a technical thing. Um, and I got on it. Um, which I mean, a slim to remote chance of getting onto this program, uh, and I got and I got there.

SPEAKER_01 23:03

Amazing.

SPEAKER_02 23:04

And it really has opened doors for me, and it focuses your thinking on the business. You have to think. I mean, the biggest problem I've now got is I'm seeing the the technical side of my role get further and further out of reach and realizing that I now have to be a leader. Yes, I have the the the overall technical vision, but it's probably not going to be me who delivers that. It is going to be a member of my team to interpret my vision.

SPEAKER_00 23:36

And you've had to obviously pivot into that because that's it. You you start the business because you had the idea and you want to carry it through. But like you say, the it's the running the business part, which unfortunately takes up the bulk of anyone's time, doesn't it? And it's uh that that's what that's what keeps the lights on. Something as that.

Why Batteries Struggle In Heavy Duty

SPEAKER_02 23:54

It is. Um, I mean, I've never thought of myself as a salesperson. Um, but people have said I, you know, I I could sell Coles to Newcastle when I'm passionate about it.

SPEAKER_01 24:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:06

And and I and I actually value that in a in a salesperson. A salesperson, a good salesperson can do the you know, the classic Wolf of Wall Street sell me this pen.

unknown 24:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:18

But people don't, I don't think people resonate with that anymore. It's yeah, it's building relationships, it's what we talked about before, it's being human, it's being authentic.

SPEAKER_02 24:26

Yes. Um, and I and I think customers actually warm to technical salespeople than they do to out and out salespeople. Now, sales, a sales professional is a different kettle of fish entirely. They are they know their job backwards, they're they're people people, and that's the diff that's the difference. But it it's but yeah, it's being a founder and a CEO is a selling job all the time. You know this.

SPEAKER_00 25:00

Yeah, it is, and I guess that but it sounds like you've embraced that as well, which which is important. What what's been the um what shocked you about startup life? What's the things that you has surprised you, would you say?

SPEAKER_02 25:18

I don't know, I'm trying to think.

SPEAKER_00 25:22

Has it been as challenging as you thought it would be?

SPEAKER_02 25:26

I was very naive when I went in. Okay. That that was my issue. I thought look at the marketplace, I will get investment on this no bother at all. Everyone's heading in this direction without researching the investment marketplace. So industry is crying out for this.

SPEAKER_01 25:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:53

You've got to push against emissions in construction. You have zero diesel sites, you you look at um the Lower Thames Crossing project, which I know is a bad thing for the Northeast because that's the cash from the A1 dueling. Um but you're looking at sort of they're putting in contract legislation. So rather than legislation, they're saying no, this this project is going to be zero diesel by 2027. So that's forcing manufacturers to do something about it. Um the industry is wanting it, but when I got in, I thought, yeah, we'll get investment on this, no bother at all. And then realized investment was not interested in heavy engineering.

SPEAKER_00 26:45

Really? Because it was all software and digital.

SPEAKER_02 26:48

It's all software and digital because it's easy. Yeah, you've got massive upfront costs with software and digital.

SPEAKER_00 26:54

But the multiples are massive, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:56

But but thereafter, you don't have a production line to look after.

SPEAKER_00 26:59

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:00

And I I got sort of early feedback on oh, it'll take massive investment in plant and machinery from people who don't understand that that construction machinery actually, most construction machines you bolt together like a kid. You don't make the the chassis, that's made by by a subcontract. You know, the harnesses is bespoke. We're planning on producing our own harnesses in-house because that's what I do. I've set up multiple harness production sales, so that's a bit of a no-brainer. Um, but you effectively buy everything off the shelf. There was a few bits and pieces we realized we couldn't buy off the shelf because nobody made them, you know, and you frantically go back through the the research papers and the in the academic white papers, and well, how have they done that? And they realize ah, they've been lab-based. Yeah, so there is a bit of that to it. But yeah, I was a bit naive in thinking that I would get investment like that.

SPEAKER_01 28:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:06

It hasn't happened.

The Investment Gap In Engineering

SPEAKER_00 28:07

Apologies for interrupting this episode with a very quick announcement on my business. Theo James are a specialist talent provider, specifically to the manufacturing and engineering sector. I'm incredibly proud of what we've achieved since our inception in 2015. We specialise in roles from semi-skilled trades right the way up to our TJ Exec search on the business, both on the contract and permit side. We offer both bespoke one-off campaigns for heart of roles for a full partnership service, or we become an extension of your business. For any information, please get in touch with me or the team. I hope you enjoy the rest of the episode. Thank you. What and what do you think? And and you know, I'll put myself in this, but for people who are on clued up with hydrogen, EV, the differences, the challenges. Um, you know, I guess you hear a lot of people going, hydrogen's the future, and then people go, no, that's your vehicle's the future, and then people going, Neither's what what what what is the market saying right now? And what do you think needs to happen for this to really accelerate?

SPEAKER_02 29:09

So there are a lot of so there are camps, shall we say?

SPEAKER_01 29:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:15

Yeah. Oh, battery technology is going to improve. Oh no, hydrogen's the way, and then you get hydrogen's dead, they're closing down hydrogen filling stations left, right, and centre. What I think is each technology, because hydrogen technology and battery technology are the same technology. Hydrogen is enough, a hydrogen fuel cell machine or vehicle is simply an electric vehicle that can generate its own power. It's still an electric vehicle, it's an evolution. And there's but there seems to be this narrative that it's an either-or situation, it's not. The the technology, there are places where battery electric works brilliantly. Last mile delivery, passenger carrying transport, passenger cars. That tech is is well there. Where battery fails is it is in heavy-duty kit. Now they're getting there with large goods vehicles, but you require hydrogen infrastructure, and we are 10-15 years away from seeing hydrogen at a filling station. That's you know, that's not gonna happen. However, the logistics for hydrogen in construction and particularly large goods vehicles, where you're going depot to depot. So let's say DHL, you've got a a trunk or I think they call them, coming up from the Leeds depot up to the Newcastle depot overnight. You can put in a hydrogen filling station, fueling station at both depots, you've got the benefit then. Okay, got that range extension. Um, so what I what I see it as is there's good it's going to be the correct technology for the application. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:57

And it's not an either-or, it's far more nuanced than that. And every anyone who thinks in the either-or technology, you know, it it's not black and white, it is each technology complements each other. You know, a huge improvement in in battery chemistry and battery technology benefits hydrogen fuel cells well, because we still need a battery in there. Not as big, but we need batteries in there.

Infrastructure And Government Vision

SPEAKER_00 31:21

Okay, interesting. Interesting. What what do you think needs to happen for it to get to where it needs to be? Because I guess you know, there's the the the cans got kicked down the road a little bit by years that need to be X, Y, and Z, and there's obviously infrastructure problems. I've had an EV, I've had an electric vehicle um for five years, and I can already see a huge difference between the type of charges on uh available, amount of people now who are charging. So I can see there's definitely been a you know an uptake, but we're also told nowhere near the level we need. So, what do you think needs to happen for that to happen?

SPEAKER_02 31:56

So it's gonna take massive investment and it's gonna take a massive vision. Um, I think our political system, where we're re-electing people, we're electing people every four years. Yeah, and I think that's a fundamental issue. This needs to be taken out of the hands of politicians in a lot of ways. I we are sitting now that this is where we come into the whole renewables argument here. Or not argument, we are sitting on the biggest pot of wealth this country has ever seen. This is going to dwarf North Sea oil, and and we blew our chance with North Sea oil. The Norwegians created a sovereign wealth fund and they controlled it, and that's why Norway is sat now, you know, not laughing, oh laughing, you know, going, yeah. And we should have done that with North Sea oil, but our North Sea oil experience and technology and and that knowledge base we have in suits offshore renewable wind perfectly. Offshore renewable wind energy is what you you use to generate green hydrogen because obviously the wind blows most of the time. You know, we're sat on this damp little rock off the west coast of Europe.

SPEAKER_01 33:32

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:34

Halfway out into the Atlantic. We've got to have something going for us, and wind and it's tidal, and and that's the key. And I think we need a massive investment, which is uh is starting to happen now. I think government is starting to wake up going, we're sat on a huge, we could become a net energy exporter, you know, to the continent. We're putting the infrastructure in, but we need to we need to have that vision of saying, right, this is not what we're gonna do over four years. We are rather than setting targets, yeah, as in you've got to get a net zero, 70, 75% reduction in diesel use by 2035, and we're gonna be all net zero by 2050. No, we've got to set reliable targets. We've got to set, we've got to go right, we need to invest in the infrastructure. And we need to be able, and then but the government goes, well, what's in it for us? Well, if you actually say tax at one or two percent of the output, there's our sovereign wealth wealth fund there, which that funds the NHS, that funds further infrastructure, that funds education, it funds a whole lot. It's a big vision, I know, but I've that and that's the problem, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 34:48

Because because it's not a because it's a long-term view, and they are looking at a short-sighted to get elected and to be re-elected four years, they they're not that's not on the agenda. But you're absolutely right. And it's there's no difference, is there, to a business which has a new new ownership every four years, the vision changes, and the vision changes, and nothing actually, nothing actually progresses. It's exactly the same with this, isn't it? That it's uh it's just what can we say to get elected, and then they don't actually nothing really get it moves on, and that I I I I'd be not confident that's gonna change anytime soon. That's the real concern.

SPEAKER_02 35:24

I I think what we're seeing is we're seeing pressure from industry, yeah. I think, particularly with the current geopolitical situation, and that's all I'm gonna comment on that. Um, I mean, that's also helped generating interest. Suddenly everyone's got, oh, alternative fuels. Yeah, yeah. Um, but I I I think the pressure is now coming from industry and commerce going, we are too reliant on hydrocarbon technology. Yeah, we need to move away for that, and we need to get into renewables because we have some of the high well, we do have the highest energy costs in Europe for business.

SPEAKER_00 36:07

Yeah, which is why, which is why it's so difficult for manufacturing to survive.

SPEAKER_02 36:12

Yeah. Um, and and this is is is we've got to have that investment, and that investment, that that vision, and it does, and it it's I think this isn't gonna be chuck a huge pot of money at it and this will solve it. Yeah, I think it's got to be structured little small pots, and you you I think this is what we're seeing. We're starting to see this kind of this everyone's going right. If the government's not gonna do it, stuff it, we'll do it ourselves. And it gets to a point where the clamour from industry and from private individuals starts to grow, and the government goes, right, we're gonna have to do something about that. Yeah, and I do think that some parts of the energy energy sector could do with being privatized and taken back under state control to get this infrastructure through, yeah. Um, you know, not looking at any one particular national grid, um, you know, because that's what it's gonna take. Yeah, um, I think. Yeah, I mean, I don't know, I don't have the answers.

Building A UK Supply Chain

SPEAKER_00 37:22

No, but I but I agree, but it's uh it's something needs to be done. But and it but it's actually very exciting to hear someone like you say that you know the opportunity is there, which is which is great, and that you know, it's not only for the region, like you say, but for for for the UK. How you know I love hearing you talk about the business and talk and talk about how passionate you are about it. How big do you think how big do you want your business to get out of interest? What what's the the vision there?

SPEAKER_02 37:50

I would like to see it as another JCB eventually.

SPEAKER_00 37:54

Yeah, good for you.

SPEAKER_02 37:56

I I it's not gonna get there in my lifetime, not a chance. You know, I I'm I do acknowledge the fact that I am a bit of an elder statesman now. Um, and I don't want to be doing this in 10 years, you know. In 10 years' time, I want to be taking a step back, maybe going up to chairman, yeah, appearing once a week, wandering around the factory, upsetting people, walking out. But you know, that privilege that comes with uh with that position. Um but I I think there's an opportunity, and we've got to look inward as a country. I I think we've got to look towards our own manufacturing communities, and I think this is one of the things we've got in the Northeast. Yep, is we are slowly but surely starting to develop a very, very coherent community. We're nowhere near where it should be, but you're starting to see the seeds growing of and and this comes back to if you're building a sustainable business, the key point is sustainable supply chain.

SPEAKER_01 39:16

Yeah.

Cutting Hydraulics And Total Ownership Cost

SPEAKER_02 39:16

So that means going local first, then regional, then national. And if you can't, don't have any choice. I mean, for certain stuff, I'm gonna have to go international for that. But there's no reason why I can't use British steel in my product. I mean, people people argue, oh, British steel cost a fortune. Yeah, have you seen the price of a hydrogen fuel cell? The cost in comparison, yeah, the cost difference, it's not gonna make any difference, but that starts to set the, you know, if everyone used a little bit of British steel, say, in their engineering projects, that would have a huge difference to our steel industry. It starts to and it allows the prices to drop, and it it's that chicken and egg, you're in that catch 22 situation. Yeah, um, but it's certainly you know it's it's that concept of starting to build a community and sustainable businesses. Um I mean I don't see us as a direct challenger to JCB because what we're doing, JCB are going down, for those who don't know, JCB have have gone down partially down the electric route, but they're now fully focused on hydrogen internal combustion engines. Okay, and I totally get that. I I actually you know admire them for that because it's I'm going space age in a way, they're going far more familiar. It's an internal combustion engine, it knows how it works. You know, everyone knows how that works. The tech's familiar, the fueling is slightly different. But actually, when you look at the fueling on a construction site or a farm, you don't take a 30-ton 360 tract excavator down to Tesco's to fill it up. The fuel comes to you, it's a it's on site. And that's the same the logistics chain works for hydrogen, which is why why, in the same way, hydrogen doesn't work for passenger cars because it's not there yet, it works for construction. And I can firmly see the the non-road mobile machinery market actually pioneering greater hydrogen use, whether it be as internal combustion or fuel cell. Both technologies, you know, I mean I would say mine's better, but um, but I can see where that where they're going with that. Um, you know, so but we're going a sort of step beyond that electrification generation. We're looking to get rid of the hydraulics as well in our technology and move to linear actuators and electrohydraulic actuators. Um, because we're getting rid of it, it's not just stop the oil. It's where where we realized is actually as a business, we're going down the line of yeah, the the green technology and the hydrogen tech is great, but actually the key point is the bottom line. Once you remove an internal combustion engine, a gearbox, a hydraulic system, what is there left to maintain and service? And you suddenly realize that your opportunity here is not it's green technology. Yeah, that's great. Don't get me wrong on that. It's sustainable, but actually it's the total cost of ownership. These are cheaper to own than a diesel in the longer term. Now, if you build them properly, and this is the key, if you build them properly, and it takes a bit more time going down the production line, but you build them to be repairable in the field, serviceable, robust, you build them like a tank.

SPEAKER_00 42:59

Yeah, which which which is ultimately that that is what's needed because it's all down, it's always down for the bottom line how much it will cost people. So it'll be if if that once that hopefully is proven, then like you say, there's your there's your gold mine. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:15

And I mean, we're really looking at at slow sustainable growth. Yeah, this is a long-term project. We're looking at probably four years before we're we're into production, yeah, because there is a research, you know, program to follow.

SPEAKER_00 43:29

Of course.

SPEAKER_02 43:30

Um, and a product development program to follow, but we're we're not looking to build huge numbers at first. You know, 10 years' time, if we're producing a thousand machines a a year, okay, that that's brilliant for us. Yeah, that's that's excellent. And they're going to be very neat because that technique because we're we're not jumping to sort of generation 2.0, we're we're trying to get to 2.5 in one league because we need that differentiator, because we're playing a Against the JCBs, the Manitos, the Merlos of this world. And but the part of the idea behind the business as well is we're not looking to keep this tech proprietorial to ourselves. It's very much my my thinking was right, we've got to prove this in the harshest environment possible, which is a telehandle. But it's scalable and it's also it will diffuse over other machinery. And once we get this technology perfected and working and proven, we may as well keep building the telehandlers. Yeah. Because that's that's our bread and butter. But there's no reason why we can't share this technology and partner with other companies who are saying, well, actually, we quite like what you've done. You know, can we have a part of that? You know, we're not gonna say, oh no, we've got exclusive rights to that. Because I think when you're dealing with fundamental technology shifts, it's key to actually share that tech and and diffuse it out. Now, I don't mean giving away IP either here. That there's you know, that's yeah, we've got our secret source as well.

The Next 12 Months And Seed Round

SPEAKER_00 45:15

Absolutely, yeah. It's uh and I I find it's all very fascinating, and then so my final question would be for you, which I think would be interesting. One what would be the perfect next 12 months for you if you could waive a magic wand, what would it be for the next 12 months look like for Zoom machine?

SPEAKER_02 45:35

So, ideal plan is we got our near-term product. So, what this fell out of the telehandler program, and you know, I was mentioning get bits off the shelf. Yeah, well, this was one of the bits that nobody made on the shelf, and this opportunity presented us. We we we got given a bit of technology, and we took one look at it and went, yeah, that's exactly what we need. Um I'm saying given it wasn't quite given, but it was um there's gonna be royalties involved. But um nobody else has taken this to market, and we looked at what else was in the market and went, this suits us brilliantly. Yep. It's a near term, I mean it's a high voltage junction box. Um, and we realized we can get this is a near-term product, we can launch this now because yes, while it works brilliantly for off-road use and off-highway use, it'll work in EVs as well. Okay, so that gives us that near-term, and it it's not quite half the size, but it's a lot smaller and it's a lot more powerful than what's currently on the market. Yep. Um, so that gives us a near-term product. So the next six months, we'd like to see that investment in, so seed investment. Um, so we are looking for investment. Um looking for around so our seed round, we're looking for 350,000.

SPEAKER_04 47:05

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 47:06

And I I think, yeah, I think the way we're going with that. I mean, overall, the investment's gonna required is is current financial models showing about four, four and a half million at the minute. Right. In five years.

SPEAKER_01 47:18

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:19

You know, that's before but near-term revenue product that gets us that gets me out of the home office. Yeah, that gets somebody employed by the company, because this is part of the thing, this is a vision for Blythe as well. Yeah, this is about creating jobs.

SPEAKER_01 47:39

Brilliant.

SPEAKER_02 47:40

Because the beautiful thing about construction machinery is you they're very hard to automate their manufacture, yep.

SPEAKER_00 47:46

So always great.

SPEAKER_02 47:47

And this is the pushback against early, early sort of investment inquiries about all it'll take a huge amount of of you know investment in plant machinery. Actually, you need a big shed and some lads and lasses who are handy with a box of spanners. Yeah, you can build it. Copper engineering, yeah, you know. Um, and and that ties back into sort of the the the opportunities available within Blythe. But so it's it's getting that seed investment because literally, and then getting product to market within 12 months, and I think we can do that. That's that's moving through getting this product uh prototyped, the design's finished, it's actually getting it built, getting it uh tested and approved, and and proving that it does what it says for us, yeah, what it's what it's gonna do. And I think if we can achieve at the end of 12 months, if we can achieve one or two sold, that's that's success. I mean, literally, as soon as we get the the sort of the seed round, that's me then into a frantic three months of of getting the business actually up and running properly.

SPEAKER_00 49:01

Yeah, it's go time, yeah.

Culture Goals And The Four Day Week

SPEAKER_02 49:03

And then it's then that's me back into chasing investment again. Because that that's that's what my next five years are gonna be is chasing investment, keeping investors happy. I mean, don't get me wrong, I would love it if somebody just came to me, opened the checkbook up, and started. But I think in a way, that would be bad for us. We we do not need that in a way, uh and I think because what we need is that slow sustained growth. Yeah, and this is key for for heavy engineering high and and deep tech businesses like ours. It's you almost feel your way into the market, and I think that's critical for a sustainable growth. I mean, what I would love to see the company become long after I've um sort of gone, I I will have gone, is to be like a JCB, to be like a Rolls-Royce, to be that um almost it's almost a Victorian vision, yeah, yeah. But if you get a good chance, proper engineering, British engineering, proper, proper British engineering, yeah, and if if nobody makes it or nobody makes it the way you want it to, you just go stuff it, we'll make it ourselves.

SPEAKER_01 50:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 50:20

But the key to it is is looking after your people as well, and and that that that's that's always been critical to me. I want to create a company where I want to work, yes. So I know everyone says get rid of corporatism, and it's very easy to say, but it's very hard to do in reality. But this is part of what I think you've got to have that vision and you've got to share that vision with people, and if they buy in, so it's work stops when the clock stops. Yep. You know, literally right, that's it, go all the time. You pay people a proper wage, you and and then and these are time and time again. This has been proven, you know. Yes, we're gonna need to employ more people if we move to a uh four-day working week. You're gonna need a few more staff to to give you the coverage, and you run that four-day working week and you run flexi time from the top of the company to the bottom of the company, doesn't matter where you are in the company, you know. I've heard the argument put across that oh, we can't give flexi time or working from old because we'd have to give that to the shop floor. My argument, my one question was well, why not give it to the shop floor?

SPEAKER_00 51:29

Yeah, yeah. 100%.

SPEAKER_02 51:31

You know, uh because if you've got a workforce whose morale is high, but productivity in qualities through the roof.

SPEAKER_00 51:44

We've we've we've run a four-day week now for two years now. Productivity is so much better than it used to be. Yeah, it is.

SPEAKER_02 51:50

And and and you have that, and you do away with sort of you have that honest, it's about having an honest conversation with your employees and recognizing that actually this is a mercenary relationship. Yeah, you sell us your time, we pay you the money. And it's acknowledging that, and and and and what always tends to put me off in companies when they say, Oh, we're like one big family. No, that just means you're underpaid and abused, yeah, you know, um, not quite. I mean, you know, yeah, um, but that infers that there's something more and and and literally to me, you should leave work at work. Yeah, I agree. It's very difficult for me to do, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:36

I think it's different mark as well. It it is different. Uh, you know, I I don't work the four day week, but I love the fact my team do like I I I love it. It's it's it feels like I'm I'm really proud of it because you know they're they go home happy, and uh I think yeah, it is so I I agree, it is different if you're on the business. That's just it is what it is.

SPEAKER_02 52:55

It is. I think if you if you've seen a leadership, if you're C-suite maybe one level below C-suite, it's that thing of of yeah, it's it's trickier to do, yeah. Um, but it it's also I mean, the one that always cracks me up is the number of businesses after um Newcastle won the Caribbean Cup on the Sunday. The number of businesses that were going on the Monday morning going, we've got no work. Yeah, we haven't seen holding the question. Really? Really? Yeah, you know, being able to do that and just say, you know what, nobody don't bother coming in tomorrow because we know what state you're gonna be in. If you've got that event, that you know, that's but it it's it's that ability to just and and also reward those people and and invest in your staff as well. So be that their education, you know, because literally when when you're building a construction machine, when you're in heavy engineering, you can literally take a ladder alas off the street and say, screw up that ball. Yeah, show them how to, they've got a job. Now, if they show promise, you can educate them. And I mean, now in Blythe, we've seen this, you know, we've already had investment in sort of levels one to three with the energy central campus. The go-ahead's been given for levels four to eight up to PhD, right? Blythe having a university. Wow. Um, but that's the vision, and that's taking a long-term vision. You've got it. That's that's what happens when I think local politics and local vision takes its hand, you know. Um, and you invest in those in that staff as well, you know, you invest in them, but you will get people on on who just want to turn up, do the job, go home. Yeah, and and what it's always struck me is those people are never recognized. You know, he's got off City, he's been here 20 years. So why not pay him more money?

SPEAKER_00 54:54

Yeah, just because he's not knowing about it.

SPEAKER_02 54:57

Why don't you recognize him? And all you need to do is put uh the word senior in front of his title, senior manufacturing operator. You don't give him any more responsibility because and naturally, as if somebody with that much experience in the business, people are going to defer to him anyway. Yeah, he's not having to manage a team, he's not giving, you know, he's just and it and it's seen as a war, a reward. I mean, I like very flat management structures, but that doesn't mean the underlying hierarchical structure and the pay structure cannot be very, you know, there's a progressive route. It's tricky to pull off, I know, but I I think it it all comes back down to leadership style.

Contact Details And Closing Thanks

SPEAKER_00 55:41

Yeah, I completely agree. Completely agree. Well, look, Gan, this has been a it's been a real privilege, this actually, I and I mean that because you've communicated the the passion and the vision of the business so well, and and you know, you will also have educated uh a lot of people, including myself, about the topic, which is important. You know, this this stuff needs to be educated on. And but I just feel I'm not just saying this, I feel like I'm talking to someone who has just got a really exciting future of the business ahead of them. And uh, and uh, and you know, the way you talk about the the culture of the business and how important it is to the local community of Blythe. And you know, ever anything which goes back to proper British engineering as well should be celebrated. It's as simple as that. And and you know, it it isn't enough, and it absolutely should be. So I um I just I can't wait for 10 years' time to look back and go, bloody hell, I had that Gavin Duffy on a podcast, you know. You know, we talked about it, and and and that's that's that's how I feel. So um I want to thank you massively, me, for coming on and and I really, really hope and uh expect you will, but I really hope you get the investment you need to do what you need to do because it's important. What is the best way for people to contact you? LinkedIn, email, what's what's the easiest?

SPEAKER_02 56:52

So LinkedIn and website, okay. Yeah, you know. Um, we don't have a big well, we I've just usual one had to totally rehash my own website. Yeah, because that's the other thing about being, you know, yeah, as a founder, you do everything. Absolutely, yeah. Um, thank thank the Lord for AI. Um we're best pals. Um, so yeah, through our website, uh www.zeromachine.co.uk or just zero machine.co.uk, LinkedIn. Fine, Google us, we we are appearing now. Yeah, um I think I think I got the search engine optimization right.

SPEAKER_00 57:34

Well, yeah, I wish I wish I'd known about it's uh SEO when I started my business and didn't call it Theo James, which is a famous actor. You know, you live and learn, don't you? So uh so yeah, we don't appear on the first page because of him, but there you go. But um look, um thank you, um Gavin so much, mate. I really appreciate it, and uh, and obviously well done on that well-deserved award as well. So thank you very much.

SPEAKER_02 57:54

Thank you. Thank you very much, Mark, for having me.

SPEAKER_00 57:57

It's it's I'm humbled in that moment. Thank you, mate. Thank you so much for listening or watching this episode of the Manufacturing Leaders podcast. Please just like or subscribe. It really helps grow the show and obviously improve the industry. If you want any more information about Theo James, as I mentioned midway through the episode, please get in touch with me or the team. I would love to talk about how it can help you directly or your business. We are more than just a recruiter, and I know people say that, but it's something I'm incredibly passionate about. We are in business for much more than just a bums-on-seats approach. We want to help people grow, we want to help improve their lives, and ultimately I want to work with businesses and people who share the same values as we do, and that's something I'm incredibly passionate about. So please, if that is you and you are passionate about that dream role or passionate about your people, please get in touch with me or the team. I would absolutely love to talk a bit more detail. Thank you very much. Speak soon.