Webinar: Employment Rights Act 2025: What HR Teams Need to do Now

In this recent webinar, Mark Bracknall sat down with Keith Ivory, founder of Transition HR Ltd., for a timely discussion on the major employment law changes set to impact UK businesses.

With more than 30 years of HR experience spanning engineering, executive leadership, and employment law, Keith brings practical insight into the Employment Rights Act 2025 and what it means for employers navigating an increasingly complex legal landscape.

Together, Mark and Keith explore key reforms including changes to unfair dismissal qualifying periods, extended tribunal claim windows, and the introduction of the Fair Work Agency - a new body designed to strengthen enforcement of employment rights across the UK.

The conversation highlights the challenges these changes may create for businesses, particularly SMEs, and offers practical guidance on how employers can prepare - from reviewing contracts and policies to improving onboarding processes and management practices.

A valuable episode for business leaders, HR professionals, and anyone responsible for people management, this discussion delivers clear, practical insight into one of the most significant shifts in UK employment law in recent years.

You can connect with Keith on LinkedIn here.

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Theo James is a Manufacturing & Engineering Recruiter based in the North East, helping Manufacturing and Engineering firms grow across the UK. 

If you’d like more information about Theo James, feel free to get in touch with the team or Mark anytime.

You can call us on 0191 511 1298. 

Transcript

Welcome And Webinar Purpose

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome everyone. Um, for those who don't know me, my name is Mark Bracknell. Um, I own a business called Theo James Recruitment. The name behind me there. So we are a uh a manufacturing and engineering recruitment firm based in Durham. Uh the bulk of the work that we do is uh up north, shall we say, but we also are quite project-led. So we have uh got some some multi-role um options across the north. Um, we do a lot of events, so we do quite a lot of face-to-face events. We've just done our first ever uh manufacturing leader summit, which was uh some undertaking. We had 190 leaders in one room at uh new coach Durham a couple of weeks ago, which was amazing. And um we'll definitely do that again. But we tend to do a lot of round table events. Um HR round table has probably been the most popular. I'll do another one actually in July, uh July the 2nd, I think that will be at SNOP Automotive Manufacturing Sunderland. So nice intimate gigs, those. We tend to have sort of 15-16 people who can get the opportunity to speak to like-minded people. We've actually got a um a speaker coming to that one as well. So if anyone is interested in that one, please let me know. Um, but we also, of course, do webinars like this because it's just a bit easier for people to uh to access, and obviously, there is a recording. Um, I've wanted to do one around employment law for quite some time. I was just waiting for the right person, which is obviously Keith. And I think what's important to do it now is actually that's time-wise, because if you go back six to nine months, there would have been people who had no real idea about it, no clue about it. Obviously, we're well on the way now, and you will all be at different stages of your journey in terms of what you've done or what you're doing. Um, so Keith obviously will have a brief overview of what it is, but actually, we're gonna get in the nitty-gritty of potentially some of the changes you might not uh have um have known about and some of the things which might affect your your hiring, your onboarding, your attention, and all that. You will have an opportunity to ask questions, please. Just as the um as Keith is talking and you think of a question, feel free to put that in the chat. I'll keep an eye out on that. And whilst you when there's um moments in the presentation to ask questions, I'll just read them out. Unless anyone wants to, um you're absolutely fine to do so. But it's probably easier if I just keep an eye on that and pick out a few. What Keith has kindly said is if there are questions he doesn't have time to answer, then he will pick those up offline as well. So you definitely get an answer to that. So feel free to do that. Um, but without further ado, I'll I'll pass you on to Keith. I'm very, very uh pleased to announce uh being here. Thank you very much. So uh so yes, over to you, Keith. Thank

Keith’s Background And Format

SPEAKER_01 2:34

you very much.

SPEAKER_02 2:35

Well, uh thanks, thanks for that introduction, Mark, and and thanks as well for the opportunity to uh to to speak on on the event today. And uh and I also want to uh recognize all of the people that have put some effort into putting this event together because I know how you know uh difficult and you know uh challenging that is. So thanks for everybody at Theo James recruitment who's put some work into this and also to everybody online who's taken some time out a busy day to uh to join us today for for today's uh webinar. So in terms of structure, um as Mark said, um I have built in some um some points in the presentation to uh to take questions. So just drop them in the in the chat and we'll we'll uh Mark will pick some out uh when we get there, but uh but I will just to repeat what Mark said, um uh provide a uh a draft response to all the questions um and and Mark can share those with everybody um who's joined. Um I'll also share the slides, Mark, so um uh so you can you can pass those around as well. Um and uh just before we launch into presentation, um I I understand we've we've probably got a range of people who uh or are people with a range of knowledge from sort of very basic up to sort of quite quite in-depth knowledge of the Employment Rights Act 2025. Um so um so I'm I'm sure I'll be covering some stuff that some of the people online all already know as as we go through. Um, but hopefully everybody will take something away from from this morning. Um so uh what I'll do now is I'll I'll uh I'll I'll just launch into the presentation. Um so um so transitional HR Limited is is my business. Um we're gonna celebrate our 10-year anniversary um later on this year, which is great. Um so uh I guess when I uh started up, um as every uh you know uh startup um is concerned, you you don't imagine what it's gonna be like in 10 years' time. Uh and like everybody else, I'm quite sure I uh it was a bit scary at the beginning, I can tell you, but it looks quite good 10 years later. So uh so I'd encourage anybody who wants to go down the entrepreneurial route to to take the leap if the time's right for you. Um but we we help organizations with um with HR support. So we we tend to work with with SMEs, um organizations that um uh where it just doesn't make economic sense to to employ somebody in in an HR role. Uh and or or up to the sort of larger SMEs where they do have somebody in-house in an HR role, but but maybe um it's just part of their role and they're not um maybe not qualified or experienced and and need some coach and advice and support um to help them deliver that aspect of the role so so we fill fill that gap as well. Um

Employment Rights Act 2025 Overview

SPEAKER_02 6:12

so what we're gonna do today is um we've done the introductions, uh we're gonna run through the scheduled changes with statutory employment law under the Employment Rights Act 2025. Um and then we're gonna have a look at um some aspects of case law uh because it's not just statutory law we need to keep an eye on. We'd we'd rather learn the lessons uh or or learn from the mistakes of others. Um that's for sure. So and there are still some big organizations making fundamental errors uh when it comes to um decisions they're making within the businesses related to employment. So we'll have a look at a few of those um and then as I as I said earlier, we've got uh the opportunity for questions built into the presentation. So um my background um is uh mainly in um the private sector. Um I started out in engineering uh as a young man, um and uh the last uh 30 or so years I've I've worked in an EHR role for um for uh a few uh large private sector companies. So you can see from my background I I've worked at every level in a business from being a young apprentice engineer up to uh executive director at uh at Hargreaves Services. And for the last 10 years um uh I've been uh operating uh transitionally HR Limited. And um my wife and business partner Kimberly, um her background is largely in um the public sector, and she has got some private sector experience, but uh the bulk of her background was in public sector or education, so so we make um we we complement each other basically and uh and we can cover um uh all the ground that most sectors uh need from a specialist uh um HR perspective. Um so um launching into the Employment Rights Act 2025. Um you might where's it come from, you you might ask. Well, um you might remember the Labour Party, the current Labour Party uh um who are in power. Um this formed part of their manifesto. You might remember the sound bite, which was um that they were elected on the back of, which was we're gonna we're gonna introduce a new deal for working people. Um and um that translated into the employment rights bill, um, which uh over the course of last year got passed backwards and forwards uh between the Commons and the Lords as it is, uh, and then uh reached royal assent in December last year and is now enshrined in employment law. So there's 28 changes in employment law within the Employment Rights Act, and um from my my view is that it's the big you know, I've nearly 30 years in HR, it's the biggest shape of I've certainly experienced uh in employment law. Um, and as I said earlier, the changes will be phased in over a two-year period. We've already passed the start line, the the the first changes came in in April. Um, and it's absolutely critical that employers are aware and prepared for these changes. So um so what are the changes?

Fair Work Agency And Tribunal Timelines

SPEAKER_02 9:43

I want to start with regulatory changes. Um so um there's a new agency being introduced uh called the Fair Work Agency or the FWA, and that's a a new body that's been established um uh on the back of um the government's view that there is widespread non-compliance when it comes to employment within the UK. Um and uh they've introduced this new uh agency to strengthen the enforcement of employment rights. So, what is their remit going to be? Well, it it it in what what I when I speak to our clients, uh I ask them to think of the HSE, but from the perspective of employment um and employment rights. So instead of help the safety, you know, that that that'll be their focus. So they will have powers similar to the HSE, so they'll be able to um visit uh um companies, uh you know, uh employees will be able to contact them with concerns or complaints in the same way as employees can um you know uh contact the HSE. And then they they will, you know, where they see fit, get in touch with employers. Um they may do uh uh unannounced visits or announced visits, um, and they'll they'll check things. So, what will they be checking? Well, they'll be looking at things like employment contracts, employment policies, pay systems, are we paying the minimum wage? Um, are we doing right-work checks um when we're employing people? Um, let's have a look at your payroll. Is everybody in your payroll actually an employee? You you might be surprised to hear that um it's it's you know uh it is a thing that um employer some employers, unscrupulous employers, will have ghost employees within within their um within the payroll. Um are we uh we complying with agency work and rules uh and and so on. And what they'll be able to do, the the fair work agency, is they they'll be able to when an employee thinks they want to raise uh a formal claim through the employment tribunal with their employer, um they they'll they they'll be in place to advise them and help them do that. And uh and even more surprisingly, they'll be able to represent the employee at the employment tribunal. Um so who's who's gonna pay for all this? Well, the taxpayer. Um uh uh the only time um the the person that they support and will pay anything is if they have a successful claim and um the FWEA will close some of their uh the costs associated with some of their time back from the compensatory reward. So um, tongue in cheek, you know, my question is how have the government become a no-win, no-free lawyer uh for employers? Um, it seems that way to me, and the taxpayer is footing the bill in the main. Um the next two points um are um potentially, you know, my view is these are the things that might catch employers out. So um from uh uh from October 2026, the time limit to meet a claim the employment tribunal will increase from three months to six months, and the ACAS early conciliation um will be extended from currently it's four weeks, isn't it? That'll be extended to 12 weeks. So if you put that back to back, um we're looking at, you know, you you could be nine months down the line after somebody's left your business before that AT1 phone you know uh falls into your inbox. Um so uh and by that time, of course, you know, memories are faded and um uh and it just emphasizes the importance of keeping good records when when you're dealing with um with employment issues in in the workplace. Um but what I would say is um that that October the first date isn't a fixed date because um it is retrospective uh in that from the perspective that if somebody um is still within the three-month limit as it is now, on the 1st of October, then um that that period for them to make a claim will increase to six. So you need to work or think three months backwards, um, which takes us to the first of July. And also the the reduction in service to claim unfair dismissal um that comes into force in January next year, that is also retrospective. So the qualifying service will reduce from two years to six months to make a claim for unfair dismissal. Um but you know that six-month service isn't from the first of July onwards, it's from the first of July backwards. So that again, sorry, first of January backwards. So that again takes us to the first of July. So our advice is uh to our clients is take advice if you're considering dismissing somebody without following the ACAS code of practice, um, so short service dismissals after the first of July. Absolutely take advice before you do that. Um and then moving on, um, some of the things that have already uh um uh come into force, um, and I think most people will be aware of these things, but uh worth worth just uh covering the points for completeness.

Day One Rights SSP Leave Protections

SPEAKER_02 15:51

SSP, statutory sick pay, the waiting days have been removed, haven't they? So so that uh means that the entitlement to sick pay um is is a first day entitlement. Um and paternity and parental leave, uh um the the there have been changes in those areas of what as well. So paternity leave has come a day what become a day one right, um, but just to keep us on our toes, uh the uh the change hasn't been applied to statutory paternity pay, so you still have to have 26 weeks service to accrue the right statutory paternity pay. Parental leave has also become a day one right. Um, and what I find told new employers is that you know parental leave doesn't seem to be uh on everybody's radar. Um, not a lot of people are aware of what parental leave is, and it in some businesses um my view is rather than sort of keep it under the radar, it could be helpful to to uh communicate and and clarify what parental leave is. So parental leave is um leave that an employee can take it's unpaid um during uh or when to during the the period from when a child's born up to the age of 18. And an employee can take or a parent can take um up to 18 weeks off unpaid in that period. It can take a maximum of four weeks in a year, you have to take it in one-week blocks. Um, but very few people in my experience take parental leave, and and largely because uh many people are unaware that that it exists. Um but it could be very helpful um for for parents um when when when they do need some time off. Um uh uh so worth maybe clarifying what what that is within your business itself. Um whistleblown protection um in uh is being extended as well. Um and what that is related to is sexual harassment disclosures. So you might remember that in October 2024 new rules came into force around um preventing sexual harassment in the workplace. Employers were um uh given or a duty was placed on employers to prevent take or take reasonable steps to prevent sexual harassment in the workplace. So, what did that mean? Well, it meant having a standalone policy on the subject um within your business, um, communicating the existence of that policy, training uh managers so that uh there's there's awareness at the uh leadership level, um providing or make or clarifying the route to raise a concern if um if anybody felt that they were exposed to sexual harassment, um, and carrying a risk assessment um in your business. Um so uh so that has been added to the list of qualifying disclosures under whistleblown uh from from um April from last month. So what are qualifying disclosures disclosures as well as things like you know criminal activity within the business, um fraud, health safety concerns, environmental concerns. Um, and people who um raise a concern of those of that nature are protected from detrimental treatment under the whistleblown protection rules. Uh well, sexual harassment claims has been added to that list. Uh that's what that means. And and confidentiality clauses or NDAs have become void as well, so you so you can't um uh introduce clauses of of that kind related to sexual harassment anymore. Um, and also um something that went slightly under the radar, I think bereaved parents' paternity leave that that um was introduced last month as well. It's an unit's an unpaid day one right, and it allows uh you know it's probably going to be something that's um very rare, uh a rare thing for that that we'll experience, thankfully, but it allows surviving partners up to 52 weeks of leave if if a mother or a main adopter dies within the first year of a child's birth or adoption, um, and that leave needs to be taken in in a continuous block. Um

October Shifts Harassment Unions Tips

SPEAKER_02 20:40

so moving on to um the October changes, um the enhancement of the duty to prevent harassment in the workplace is coming into force. So I talked uh earlier about the duty that came into force in October 2024 to take reasonable steps. Well, the word all has been added to that, so employers will have to take all reasonable steps to prevent sexual harassment, um, which is a broader um which is a broader duty and is going to extend to third parties, so people outside of your business. So if you have staff that are customer facing um or uh or deal with suppliers um or or the general public, um uh we are going to have to take uh steps to prevent them from um uh being exposed to sexual harassment from third parties as well. So that that means that our risk assessments are going to have to be reviewed further um from that perspective, and we're gonna have to take more steps. Um so uh it might mean that females, for example, um uh have clients who are estate agents, for example, and and have uh have Of women who um you know show people around houses and and such like um well um they they already because of you know the Susie Lample years ago um have got things in place but they're gonna have to do more to to make sure uh you know maybe um double up uh or uh take other steps to to protect uh women when when they're in those situations. Um the other thing that's um changing is uh fire and rehire is being banned. So again, there are some unscrupulous employers who would break employment contracts to to avoid staff from accruing statutory rights with service um and then re-engage the same people uh a week later under under new terms and conditions with a with a new new start date. Well that that practice is being banned and will become automatically unfair from from October. Uh and beyond that, um from October um there are going to be some new trade union rights uh come coming into play. And in particular, on commencement of employers, uh employment, employers are going to need to provide a written statement informing workers of their right to join a trade union. Um and then the government are currently considering um whether there'll be a need for reminders to existing stuff uh at at a frequency that they're going to confirm that's probably going to be annually. Um and what will the statement need to contain? Well, um it'll be uh uh listing what uh benefits joining a trade union um would bring. Um it would also include um a list of of uh trade unions that uh an employee might want to consider joining. Um and uh that, as I say, is gonna have to be providing a written notice. The government have said that they're gonna um provide a template that employers can use that will be a qualifying statement um prior to October. So we'll we'll wait and see what that's going to cover. And then the last uh thing to cover on this subject is um on the hospitality side. So anybody that works in hospitality will be aware that uh there was an act covering tips uh that was introduced in 2023, um, and that is a code of practice on fair and transparent distribution of tips. Well, that's been enhanced as well in October. So that's the the detail of changes that are coming into force over the next 12 months or already have come into force.

Next Wave Zero Hours Flex Requests

SPEAKER_02 25:00

There's more, as I said earlier, uh there's 28 changes in total, and beyond 2026, zero hours contracts, the rules around zero hours contracts are going to be revamped. Um, and that's gonna give uh people on zero hours contracts um uh the right to have guaranteed hours after a after a 12-week reference period, if they've consistently worked a number of hours um during that period. And it's also gonna require employers to give reasonable notice of shifts and compensation if shifts are cancelled at short notice and short notice uh is within seven days. Um there's gonna be more family-friendly uh changes coming in, so protection for dismissal of pregnant workers and new mothers obviously already protected, but uh there's gonna be um more protection. So from the from the moment uh uh uh an employee informs our employer that they're pregnant to six months beyond their return to work, um there's gonna be uh extended protection. Um and bereavement leave, uh it is quite a shock and indictment, isn't it, that um there is no bereavement leave, uh, statutory bereavement leave in this country unless uh in a sad situation where it's a child that that's passed away. So there's gonna be some new statutory uh bereavement leave uh coming uh next year. And then uh flexible work requests, um the employers are gonna have to prove that they've met strict requirements if if they're refusing flexible work requests. We we already know there's that list of reasons why an employer can refuse flexible work requests. Well, those are gonna have to be strictly applied um in the future. And then collective redundancies, um, for those who are a bit long-the-tooth like myself will remember when uh this this came in, which was on on the back of the Woolworths um closure. Uh so um before that uh collective redundancies were within an organization wherever they were wherever their business units were geographically located. But after um um after Woolworths, it became you know at a single location. Well, that's been reversed uh next year, so we're going back to uh the 20 employee threshold for collective redundancies, that's gonna be aggregated across all sites uh rather than by location. Um, schools of thought on whether that's a good or bad thing. And then there's gonna be more changes to rules on trade unions as well, particularly around balloting next year. So as these changes come in rather than um swamp our clients with too much information all at once, uh as these watersheds come in in October next year, uh this year, April next year, we're gonna be um back back talking to our clients uh and explaining um what what these changes mean in in more detail uh as the as the watersheds uh approach. So

Audience Q&A Practical Scenarios

SPEAKER_02 28:32

so Mark, um as we've gone through that, um has there been any any questions uh come through as we've been talking?

SPEAKER_01 28:38

Yeah, there is Keith. So uh I'll I'll go through. So Donna um asked this question here, which is a good question. Um so with sexual harassment, now it is all reasonable steps. What would you consider all reasonable steps to be? So she said um they've implemented policies, visuals, manager training, risk with risk assessments, including third party. Should anything else be considered? If she missed anything off that list that you recommend, would you say?

SPEAKER_02 29:08

Um uh it's as long as the policy has it has a and I'm sure it will uh donor have a clear route to for for individuals to to raise a concern. Um uh and then you're ahead of the game by including third parties. Uh so what what I expect uh some of the uh maybe larger employees will be doing is they'll be writing out ahead of October to their to their suppliers and and they'll be asking the question, you know, have you got you know have you got this covered? Um have you have you got you know a policy and and and uh etc. between your managers uh and so on? Can can you um guarantee to us, you know, uh that that that these steps have been covered? So I think that's the the next thing to to go beyond your organization and and ask ask the third parties that you work with to verify that they they they have also taken reasonable steps. And when it comes to your risk assessment, um to just review and refresh that and consider third parties. Um and and obviously we we're very much uh focusing on on women, uh female employees here. Although um it might surprise you to know that um more than 25% of all sexual harassment claims come from men. Um and that that tends to be homophobic type stuff in the main. Um and often when you know the guy isn't gay but have been you know exposed to um homophobic comics comments in the workplace. So it does happen, but um, but we really you know these these new rules, you know, let's be clear, are very much focused on protecting women and girls in the workplace.

SPEAKER_01 30:54

Thanks, C. Uh, next one's from Gail. Um, will the length of service for statutory redundancy payments still remain at two-year service, i.e., you won't drop to six months?

SPEAKER_02 31:06

Yeah, there's no change uh to to the statutory payments uh related to um to redundancy now.

SPEAKER_01 31:15

Great, okay. Um Kaylee here, um, which of the new rights um do you think will create the biggest operational challenge for SMEs?

SPEAKER_02 31:25

Well, uh um as I as I said earlier, uh I I don't think it's any of the of the policy level changes that are gonna you know um cause issues for employers. Uh employers will adapt, they'll amend the policies and and uh and and in the main will come comply. Um it's it's more the the the regulatory changes. Okay uh so um so it's a big change to to the unfair dismissal um uh reduction in qualifying service claim, unfair dismissal to six months. That's a massive change. The employment tribunal system's already overburdened. Um so this is gonna bring in uh uh a whole suite of of new claims, uh, in my view. Um and uh the introduction of the fair work agency as well is is gonna compound that um uh one once that gets uh you know um down the road a bit. So I think it's the the regulatory changes and in the short term, you know, as I say, in a period between the first of July and the end of the year, uh I would really encourage employers to be you know very careful.

SPEAKER_01 32:37

Uh uh Donna's got a couple of questions here, and uh so the first one she'd she typed in, but the second one she's uh asked to be muted because it's probably a bit more complicated. So I've Donna, I've unmuted you there so you can ask uh ask away whichever you want. So you should be able to talk, hopefully.

SPEAKER_00 32:51

Lovely, thanks. So um the the one I want to be unmuted for is flexible work, and because it's a little bit um difficult just to type it all in, and I can see with your background, Keith from CalSonic, that you you'll possibly be familiar with the environment. I mean, I work at Highly Morale, so we do the HAP unit. Um and we are getting we we are getting more and more requests, flexible work and requests from operator level, um, where they only want to do four days a week, for example. And we haven't currently to refuse these requests because to try and get somebody to reliably cover that one day is nigh on impossible. Um how will that sit with the new rules of having approved um that you're doing everything reasonable to put these flexible work and requests through?

SPEAKER_02 33:43

Yeah, um so again, you it sounds like you're doing everything that that you need to do uh to to comply with that. You you you you'll be sticking within the time limits, you'll be having meetings and and you'll be uh um keep keeping good records all around that. That's always important, uh the the record keeping side of things. You just have to be seen to be uh to have made made the effort. Um and uh but by that what I mean is you know um uh you know in a case where um uh you know sh shared um working is is requested, uh then um you know have have you advertised um uh and can you show that there weren't any applicants and and so on? Uh it's that's that type of evidence that that you would need if you were ever challenged.

SPEAKER_00 34:37

Oh, okay. No, that I mean we we do do that. And I think if it was a true job share, it probably would be less of a yeah, if it was job share. Um when it's just one one day for eight hours, um it becomes increasingly difficult because because of things like universal credits and things like that, people don't want to just work eight hours, they want to try and hit them 16 hours to maximise the benefit system if that's what they use. And so I just wanted to check because um I just do feel like the flexible work and people are much more aware of it, they're making much more um requests. We might have people who are coming close to retirement who think actually I could just do with drop in a day or so. Um and work in a manufacturing line, as I'm sure you'll be aware of, it's difficult to do that. You've got your heads to get the parts out and you can't just work with one less head for one day. It doesn't work very well if you then counter into possible sickness or holidays and stuff that you may have um ongoing. So I just wanted to check like whether this was potentially gonna what was a huge issue come if coming into play a little bit stronger.

SPEAKER_02 35:37

Well, Donna, and what what I would encourage you to do is um put push it back to the to the employer, to the employee to an extent as well, and and ask them, you know, when when you say we can't accommodate, you know, because and and it's not just um the the difficulty in recruiting, it's it's the increased costs as well, isn't it? Training, uniforms, equipment, all that sort of stuff. Um so uh you know, explain to the individual, you know, after you've um verified that you know it's impossible to recruit and you've got the evidence behind that, ask them if they've got any alternative proposals. Uh, because as you've said, you know, in in uh uh in a limited way, you might be able to accommodate more of a sort of 50-50 or 60-40 job share situation, but just not 80-20.

SPEAKER_00 36:23

Yeah, yeah, no, that's that's right. And then then my final one was hopefully just a really quick one. I'm just wondering when the trade unions come in and we have to do like a written statement to employees to say that you know, you do have the right to join one, these are the benefits. Are we able to do like a works council first trade union on that, or will it just be purely communication for trade union? Just because I know obviously we do internal works council, it works much quicker than a trade union when it comes to pay awards, etc. So, like can you do that sort of comparison, or would that be frowned upon?

SPEAKER_02 36:56

No, I I do I think you should. Um, you know, if you've got something in place that works uh perfectly well now and and and and maybe you know better than what what a uh trade union recognition uh arrangement would work like. Um I think you you you absolutely should you know uh communicate that as well. There's there's no rules to say that you shouldn't. And it shouldn't be a free ride for for trade unions, should it really? And you you've seen my background at CalSonic, we we actually um had a trade union recognition um request when during my time when I was there, which we successfully averted uh by doing exactly what what you just described.

SPEAKER_00 37:37

Yeah, okay. No, that that that's great. Like I say, it's just and I don't think they all the the employees always consider things like pay awards could be massively delayed if there's a huge negotiation going on, where when it's done through the works council, it's normally agreed within about four weeks.

SPEAKER_02 37:53

Um my experience is similar. Um uh I find that employers are um there's less trust with a third-party trade union and are much more guarded and and you know time frames you know are much longer when you're dealing with um trade unions as opposed to your own stuff under under Works Council arrangements. The unions will say, well, it'll be your staff anyway, because you know, the people that are elected as representatives uh you know will will be in a lot of cases exist and stuff, but um but I still think because there's you know the the union in the background, uh trust trust is is reduced and timescales are extended for that reason.

SPEAKER_00 38:40

Lovely, thank you. Well, I'll jump off and let somebody else jump in now. I've taken enough of your time. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 38:46

One quick question here, uh um, Keith, which should be quite a quick one uh from Stacy. Um, collective redundancies, does this only relate to sites within the UK, or does it also apply for other sites within the global business are also making redundancies at the same time? Yeah, just just the UK. Okay, yeah, perfect. So that's uh yeah, that's that's a lot of questions without.

SPEAKER_02 39:08

Well,

Case Law Mistakes To Avoid

SPEAKER_02 39:09

I'll uh I'll move on to the uh some interesting bits of case law, um, which is interesting to me. Hopefully, you guys will find interesting as well. Um, and as I said earlier, this is about learning from uh the the experience of others, uh, where they've made mistakes, and um it it does continue to surprise me that large employees still make fundamental mistakes. So, in this case, um, this was uh uh a lady who worked for Quarryfield's Healthcare Limited. Uh Beatrice and Bonda was her name, and you can probably uh uh assume by her name that she she was a black lady, or she is a black lady as far as I'm aware, still. Um so uh she she worked for Quarryfield and um it some of their employees uh complained to management that she was asleep on night shift. Um and it just so happened that the three complainants were were white, uh, and Beatrice you know denied that she was asleep on night shift and said that this was you know a race issue and and uh and challenged um challenged the uh the complaint from from that perspective. Uh but the employer said, well, we've had a complaint, we're gonna have to investigate it. Um so they appointed an investigatory officer who did carry out investigation and recommended uh discipline reaction. Um so discipline reaction occurred. Uh uh all through this, uh, Beatrice was under the threat of a gross misconduct dismissal. Um, so obviously stressful, um stressful time for her. Uh, but ultimately the employer uh gave her a final written warning, which he appealed against, um, but um the uh the manager chairing the appeal uphold the upheld the the original decision. So Beatrice was uh disappointed with all this and decided to uh leave and and claimed constructive unfair dismissal and race discrimination. And as it went through the tribunal system, it was established that the original person who was investigating the issue didn't speak to everybody on the shift that they could have. Um they spoke to Beatrice herself, they spoke to the three white ladies who made the complaint, and one other black person who said they didn't want to be involved and wanted to see out of it, so refused to make a statement. But there were other people on that shift, and other black people on that shift, which the original investigatory officer decided not to not speak to. And then when it got to the disciplinary stage, um the disciplinary officer relied solely on the report from the investigatory officer, and and so did the the appeal officer. The tribunal panel believed that that showed um signs of predetermination from the outset, because you know there's three stages to the to the disciplinary process, isn't it? There's the investigation, there's the appeal, and then uh sorry, there's the hearing itself and the appeal. And there's a requirement, where possible, to have three different people, independent people, chair in each of those stages. And what that person should do, they should go back to the beginning and re make sure that the person that dealt with the issue before them covered all of the uh all of the relevant ground. In this case, that didn't happen. So uh so the the uh the the tribunal found in favour of Beatrice uh in that she was unfairly dismissed, and uh they upheld her race discrimination claim, and she was awarded over £23,600 in compensation. So the lesson there is um to uh make sure that each each stage of the disciplinary process is a fresh, we we look at it with a fresh pair of eyes, we go back to the beginning and we make sure that the ground all of the proper ground was covered before. We don't just rely on a report from the person that handled the issue previously. And if you wanted to look up that um that case, that the the case, uh, the case number is is on will be on the slides when we share them. Um this one was a shocking case, unfair dismissal, Paula Smith uh versus Northwest Ambulance Service Trust. So Paula Smith um was you know is is a is a gay woman and uh she was married to a lady called Stacy Smith. They both worked for the Northwest Ambulance Service Trust, but they were on different shifts. And they requested that they be placed on the same shift. They made that request to their employer. They made that request on several occasions. It was always denied. Don't know why it was denied. Maybe they had specific skills that were needed on different shifts. But it was denied over an 18-month period, these requests went in and they were always denied. So Stacy Smith shockingly decided that it would be a good idea to go and knock on our operations manager's door, drag her out onto our driveway, and beat her around the head with a hammer, which uh resulted in her being arrested, and she was given to a 20-year prison sentence for attempted murder. So, what does the employer do with Paula Smith? Was the question. So they brought Paula Smith into a disciplinary meeting and they said, Well, uh, ultimately, Paula, we can't have you continue work to work here because of your ongoing association with Stacey Smith. Um, because patients and the general public just would have an issue with that. Uh, so it's a reputational thing for the ambulance service. Um, so this actor, uh, so Stacy Smith, uh sorry, Paula Smith took took a claim to the employment tribunal. And um she she her claim was successful. She was unfairly dismissed according to uh an employment panel, yeah, judge and panel. Um, and that was because the reasons they gave was um the the reason in the principle was the reason given uh to dismiss Paula was that the uh general public uh in patients would have an issue. But Paula Smith uh was was in you know interviewed by the police, but never charged with anything. Um and uh and all of the publicity related to the case uh was not did didn't mention her name. So the employment judge took the view that you know it was unreasonable to to believe that the general public would even know that Paul Paula Smith had anything to do with with Stacey Smith. So this principle of innocent until proven guilty was quoted by the employment judge. And what we we do uh occasionally get um uh inquiries from clients along the lines of you know, a member of staff was arrested over the weekend. Uh what what can we do? Um or what should we do? Uh and and this principle of innocent proof guilty, you know, i is a is a factor. So what what can you do? Not a lot really, um, because you know, just because they've been arrested, maybe not charged with anything, or even if they have been charged, they haven't been found guilty. So um so the options really are just you know, you can suspend the person if you if you feel that the uh that that's the right thing to do, that the the the the the issues uh in play are so serious uh that you know we maybe want to suspend. But suspension is on pay, and how long does it take for a court case to go through the system? Years in some cases, that would be a long time. You can obviously um make some uh changes to the working arrangements ask the person who worked from home, uh for example, but uh a larger number of them you know jobs you can't work from home, so so that's not practical in a lot of cases. So um so it's difficult. Um so the the lessons here are um dismissals whilst the criminal investigation is ongoing, requires a thorough and fair process, uh obviously, and and rather than relying solely on the accusation itself, the employer should review other issues. Um for example, if Paula Smith was arrested and was remanded for a period, she wouldn't have been able to attend work. Uh and frustration of the contract might have been a fair reason for dismissal because of our inability to attend work. But that's not the route we went down, and that was found to be unfair dismissal. Um the last case I wanted to cover, this is a case that I use a lot when I'm when I'm uh delivering training around employment law, and it's just a case that I found that does show how how often you know the the uh the the um the view the viewpoint can change when you're going through the different stages. So this was a a case where there was uh two young lads who were working for Liverpool City Council, they were electricians, um, and they were you know uh found to be um doing work in company hours, um using company equipment for cash in hand. So we would call it a govvy job. Um scouts as in in their sort of parlance call that sort of thing doing a foreigner. So um that could have a few connotations, isn't it? Couldn't it? So I thought I'd just better explain that. So um it just so happened that the maintenance manager lived on the street where this work was being done on this particular day. So as he was driving to work, he passed uh Liverpool City Council maintenance van and thought, I can't remember putting anything in here this week. So uh he found out who was uh using that van that week and he brought the two lads into a disciplinary process. And um they were um ultimately dismissed uh because of that. So they appealed, and Liverpool City Council obviously he'd expect to be unionized, so they were represented by a union, and the union guy said to the appeal manager, has this happened before? Now obviously he'd done his, I'm assuming he'd done his background uh research and he knew it had happened before, but the appeal manager said, I'll go and check and we'll we'll reconvene. So he went and checked, he came back and he said, Yes, it has happened before. And the union guy said, Well, what was the outcome? And the appeal manager said, Well, the outcome was a final written warning. And the union guy said, Well, that's my guy's reinstated, then isn't it? And the appeal manager said, No, they're still dismissed. So this went to the employment tribunal, and the arguments were put forward, and the tribunal agreed with the employees and said that was an unfair dismissal. Uh appealed um to the employment appeal tribunal. And what they put the appeal tribunal was that the guy that had been caught doing a govy job uh before and given a final written warning was 64 years old. He'd worked for the uh council for 40 years, he was six months from retirement, uh, so they decided to be lenient in that case. Whereas the two young lads, they were in their mid-20s, they had another 40 plus years of opportunity to um to do this sort of thing, and and uh basically rob the taxpayer uh and um and and be better you know uh fleeting the council by doing this sort of thing, and they weren't prepared to take that risk. So the Employment Appeal Tribunal did overturn uh the original tribunal's decision, and that was ultimately found to be a fair dismissal. So um that that case just goes to show how uh decisions can flip-flop, uh and the devil's always in the detail, isn't it, when it comes to um decisions in in those areas. So um were there any other questions, Mark, as as we went through any of that?

SPEAKER_01 52:03

No, I don't think so, mate. I don't think so. Um what I was gonna say is obviously um we've scheduled it till 10 to 11. If you have got obviously more in presentation, it goes past 11 and people people need jump off, no problem, because remember it is recorded, so I will send you the recording. So if if needs must you need to skip to the end and watch it, that's absolutely fine. So, but no, no questions on that one, Keith.

SPEAKER_02 52:25

Mark, so no worries, we're we're at the end, we'll be finished by 11.

Practical HR Actions And Probation

SPEAKER_02 52:29

Um, so just summary really uh 28 changes of employment law being ruled out under the Employment Rates Act over the course of the next two years. Um, I think it was a question earlier, wasn't it? Uh, but my view is the introduction of the Fair Work Agency, the extension of the period to register uh the employment tribunal claims six months in October, and the reduction of the qualifying sales for unfair dismissal in January will be the most impactful. And take real care um if you're um letting anybody go after July the 1st. Um so working with an we're working with a number of employers with the aim of improving absence monitoring because of the changes in in SSP to help them um monitor and manage absence uh with the aim of maximizing attendance. I think it's just brought uh in the focus and the attention of employers that you know the fact that um people might take more time off if they're gonna get sick pay from day one. That's a worry. Yeah, and it'll be um it's always a business critical issue in recruitment, um, but it's gonna be even more of a business critical issue, in my opinion. Um and uh you know, because of because of the changes. So uh really we want to make sure that employment documentation and practices are compliant, that recruitment selection processes are robust, you're getting the right people in, don't take any chances uh in in recruitment and probationary reviews. My advice to our clients is make your probationary period six months if it's not already. Make sure you review not just at the end of that period, but at least once, if not twice, you carry out a review, uh an on-board review with with new stuff during that probationary period. And if you've got any doubts at all, do the days of extended probationary periods are in the past, in my opinion. We shouldn't be doing that. We should be making decisions during the probationary period. And if if the if there's a odd employee that we've got doubts about where we think this might not be the right appointment, then you know uh deal with that during that six months. Don't let it go a day past.

SPEAKER_01 54:51

Yeah, so it's a really it's a really interesting point there, because of course uh we've more so the earlier definitely fell on that trap of we're not sure. We'll give them it, we'll extend it three months, and and and and 90% of the time, uh probably in higher, they don't last. So I think you're right, it's just getting that. Um very quick question here from Gail. I've been advised to well, question that she said I've been advised to reduce from six months based on the three months. So I'm presuming based on that, based on your feedback there, Keith, that that isn't that isn't good advice.

SPEAKER_02 55:18

Well, I I would uh um it's not my opinion. Uh my opinion is the opposite. Um go go to six months but carry out reviews during that period. Yeah, that's the advice we're gonna comment. Every every advisor, my my other advisors might have a different opinion, and I and I can't comment on that.

SPEAKER_01 55:36

Yeah, no, we moved we moved to six, and I say it I felt it did uh uh make a difference and um and took a little bit of the stress away from from both sides, but like you say, it's that's that's uh those regular touch points and document those touch points. Um Kaylee's on the call who's my operations manager, also doubles up as HR and G and make sure I document everything we do. So yeah, but it does make a difference, to be fair.

Closing Recording Slides Contact

SPEAKER_01 56:00

So um look, thank you so much, Keith. That's really, really helpful. Um I've learned loads. So if you um if anyone does have any any other additional questions, um feel free just to put them in the chat, and then obviously uh Keith will pick those up uh outside. I'll also make sure you've got the recording, I'll also make sure you've got Keith's um details, content. I mean, what's the best way? Generally, Keith, obviously, I will send them your details, but just LinkedIn email, what's what's the best typically?

SPEAKER_02 56:28

Yeah, just an email, I'll be fine. Uh no, no, no concerns about sharing me email address, Mark.

SPEAKER_01 56:33

Yeah, yeah, thank you. But but thank you for everyone. Thank you very much for uh for jumping on today. I really appreciate it. I will make sure I'll send you the recording. And as I said, if you have got any more questions, please drop them in and I'll um say I'll make sure they get they answered. But thank you very much, much appreciated. Thanks for thanks guys, thanks very much. Thanks, Kate. Thank you very much, buddy. You're welcome. Speaking, I'll um I'll uh I'll tell just to wait till everyone drops off. But um, yes, thank you, Kenith. That was great. So we enjoyed that. Thank you very much. That's good. Yeah, yeah. So I'll um I'll send the I'll share the recording now with people. Um that'll probably be with us, probably sorted, probably next we next week now. Um and is that okay if I just send your details to them as well and advise if they've got any questions just to just to reach out. Is that all right?

SPEAKER_02 57:25

Yeah, by by all means, and I'll I'll send across the uh the slides, not the reviews this morning.

SPEAKER_01 57:31

Yeah, thank you.

SPEAKER_02 57:37

She was asking about um, I think I did explain it, you know, six months. You know, I think she's asking about you know, by by the time you get to six months, yeah, um it's it's probably too late. So so I agree with that, and we should have carry carry out you know, uh reviews during the previous period, don't we?

SPEAKER_01 57:55

At the end, yeah, yeah, completely agree. Um excellent. Well, no, well, thanks again, Keith. Massively appreciate it. Thank you so much. And uh we'll have a I'll have a catch away next week. But uh, yeah, thanks again. Reapreciate, buddy. Okay, that's great. Thank you, mate. Speak soon. Bye bye, bye bye.