Lessons in Leadership, Succession and Building a Loyal Team

In this latest episode of the Manufacturing Leaders podcast, Mark welcomes Guy Armitage, Managing Director of York Handmade Brick, to discuss family business leadership, craftsmanship, innovation, and the future of sustainable manufacturing.

The conversation explores Guy’s journey within a business built on generations of expertise, tracing York Handmade Brick’s evolution from its founding in 1988 to becoming a recognised name in the production of premium handmade and bespoke bricks. 

Guy shares insights into the responsibility of carrying forward a family legacy while continuing to adapt and grow in a rapidly changing industry.

Guy discusses the challenges of leading a manufacturing business in today’s environment, from embracing new technologies and improving production efficiency to maintaining the quality and craftsmanship that define the company’s work. 

Listeners will gain an authentic insight into the realities of running a family-owned manufacturing business, the importance of adapting to change, and the values required to build a successful organisation that stands the test of time.

This is an episode you do not want to miss!

Click here to connect with Guy on LinkedIn. 

Please like and subscribe - it genuinely helps grow the show and, in turn, helps push the industry forward.

Theo James is a Manufacturing & Engineering Recruiter based in the North East, helping Manufacturing and Engineering firms grow across the UK. 

If you’d like more information about Theo James, feel free to get in touch with the team or Mark anytime.

You can call us on 0191 511 1298. 

Transcript

Welcome And What To Expect

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Manifactual News Podcast. With me, Mark Bracknell, Master Director of Theo James Recruitment. Today we're welcomed on Guy Armitage, the Master Director of York Handmade Brick. York Handmade Brick are a family-run business. Guy took over as my director 10 years ago. It was ultimately previously his father's business. And we talked about not only the transition to becoming MD and taking the business forward, but actually the importance of the partnership he has and has with his father, which was touching. And he talks in detail about his dad being his biggest inspiration and how they just made that partnership work. And actually, how the culture of the business has been consistent because they understood not only their partnership, but actually the culture of the business moving forward, the values of the business. It's a business with currently 18 people in it. So a nice sweet spot to be an SME. These are the businesses that are the absolute heartbeat of our economy and often businesses that are forgotten and not supported. So it was a real privilege to get Guy on the podcast today and talk to him about his journey, his journey through leadership. We talked about emotional intelligence. We talked about how we get the best out of people. And interesting, we actually talked about hiring and how he hires people who ultimately stay in their business because their retention is exceedingly good. And we talk in detail about exactly how to do that. But this is one of those episodes where um it's just a nice, positive, friendly feel to it for a just a really good business, which uh I was really proud to talk to today. So please, as ever, um sit back and and enjoy the episode. Please, please, please help me like and grow it by liking it, commenting and sharing. But thank you very much. I hope you enjoy the episode. So a

Leadership As Example And Authenticity

SPEAKER_01 1:45

a massive warm welcome to uh to Guy Armitage, the uh my director of uh York Handmade Brig. How are we doing, Guy?

SPEAKER_00 1:51

Okay, very well, thank you. Yeah, it's a pleasure to be here.

SPEAKER_01 1:54

Yeah, thank you very much. And look, really looking forward to this. I I absolutely love businesses like this, which are the heartbeat for me of manufacturing and SMEs and the absolute heartbeat of the uh the the British economy, which we'll get into. But first question is the same question that I ask everyone who comes on, which is what does it mean to you to be a leader, would you say?

SPEAKER_00 2:15

Well, I I think there's a number of different elements to it, but I think one that I always think is very important is to is to set a good example. I think I think how how I show up every day is is is gonna set the the tone for everyone else. So I need to, you know, I need to be showing a good positive uh face, if you like. Uh and I think I think there's a lot to be said for leading by example. Uh um I think just as a fundamental principle, I generally try not to, you know, I think you you shouldn't ask anybody to do something that you wouldn't particularly, you know, if you wouldn't particularly want to do it yourself, if you if you'd object to doing yourself.

SPEAKER_01 2:52

Yeah, I I can't be agree. I because I think people, particularly nowadays, I think they see through people who ask people to do this when when they clearly know, and it's difficult to get respect, isn't it, from from doing that? The um I I I agree with that, and um I felt pressure early doors to be a leader for for having to make sure I show up 100%, and I still feel like that, and I still put a face on sometimes. Is that something you've ever struggled with to go, I've got to be the best version of myself, or in a in a in a certain business when you get to it, then it do you feel like you can be your authentic self however you feel? What's the balance like for you there?

SPEAKER_00 3:28

Yeah, it's I I think being being authentic is really important and and and and being sort of honest. But equally, um, it's I think there is an element of going on, you know, it's like you're going on stage. Whether whether it's whether you're you're you're selling, it's it's that I think it's that thing you should um you know, you should imagine who you want to be, especially if you're feeling a bit nervous about something. If you're if you're seeing, you know, if it's um something, you know, maybe uh you're dealing with people you don't know. Um I think you know, the I th one of the ways that I sort of get over uh any nervousness is to go, you know, right, just imagine who I want to be, even if I don't necessarily totally feel like that person, you know, I'm confident about that person inside. Um make sure I'm I'm you know, put the uh, you know, I imagine what I how I want to come across.

SPEAKER_01 4:18

Yeah, I get that because there's uh pretty much everyone I've ever interviewed, and uh massively myself, and I think we're always winging certain aspects of it. And I think actually there's Elman, that's what good leaders do. I think you you know, you we we haven't always got all the answers to every single question, and I don't think we should ever lie about it, but actually, it's our job to probably find them out, or if not guide them to to do so, and that in itself is is leading by example, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 4:46

Massively, very much so, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:48

Yeah.

What York Handmade Brick Makes

SPEAKER_01 4:49

I mentioned at the start there that I love speaking to people like yourself who are obviously involved in businesses, which as I say, that the heartbeat of the of the economy, uh let's be honest, often forgotten. That is the case, you know. I'm not going straight into politics, but you know, unfortunately, that is often the case that they are you know forgotten, but really good businesses, you know, which are doing something great. Um, for those who don't know about the business, do you mind giving me a quick rundown of of what what you do and uh and any other info that you think might be interesting?

SPEAKER_00 5:21

Yeah, we uh York handmade brick, uh where um made we we make bricks that of of beauty, really. Uh I think uh our our purpose is to create beauty and elevate that elevates good good design. Um so um so not not all our bricks are handmade. We started out as as as as handmade, but they're they're handmade effect, they have the character of handmade that handmades have. Um so that's very much much still at the core of of what we what we do to but ultimately I think you can sum it up as making bricks for for that that are going to make beautiful buildings. And um that that's sort of like the core, the core objective. Just a little bit about the history of the of the business. We we started in 1988. Um we we were initially there were what we call very traditional bench throwing, and we and we've we we mechanized that um to a to a certain extent. We had a good foothold in the in the self-build market initially. Um and then from about the 2000s, we got into the commercial sector and have done some wonderful award-winning jobs, uh, such as the the Chetham School of Music. Even the Shard has 300,000 of our bespoke bricks made, especially to Renzo Piano, the architect's specification. Um, and we've got more into that sort of work since. So basically, we're split between self-building luxury residential, uh, commercial city center type work, and then this sort of heritage type work. And sometimes these things overlap. It might be a commercial building that that that has a uh you know a strong um uh conservation, is conservation sensitive. Um, but uh certainly all you know that's very much our niche.

SPEAKER_01 7:08

Excellent. And and am I right in saying family or business, your father's business previously, is that right, guy?

SPEAKER_00 7:14

That's right. Yeah, very important part. My my father, um the the background to the family is uh we we my father was a fifth generation brickmaker. He'd been with Armitage Bricks, uh, which was I think founded in in the 1850s, and I think originally they started making bricks in 1825. Um that was sold, uh, but my father was had seen the great things that that business could do. Um, so he was very committed to brickmaking and wanted to carry on. So he found on brickworks um was was for sale and he bought that and with his with uh a guy called Tim Bristow who who who he um who persuaded him to invest in the business. Um between them they came up with with York Handmade and um and and then uh bringing us on to the story that I was telling earlier.

SPEAKER_01 8:04

Excellent. And and uh me on the website looked around, you know, and our conversations it is some beautiful subs beautiful subs of the stuff you're involved in with and and and this is the again, you know, that you mentioned heritage, you know, and you know, uh really proud stuff that you know as a you know we have in this country, which unfortunately probably isn't celebrated enough and and needs to be because it's stuff that we need to ensure we back and support because it's really really really crucial. So um, so no, excellent stuff. Um,

Joining The Family Business

SPEAKER_01 8:34

you obviously came into the business. Uh, I'm always interested in the story of family generation businesses and and people who have to step up and and and join the family business. Some people join them, you know, from apprenticeship from uh from boys, some would join a bit or you worked obviously in a in a different was it banking essentially and came into, didn't you? So to talk us through that. What was that transition like coming into the family business?

SPEAKER_00 8:57

Yeah, that that that's right. My I mean my my background was um was working for HBOS in their IT department. Um so very different to what I was doing here. But having said that, I'd going back to what you were saying earlier, I I mean, I think I was 12 when my father bought the business. So a lot of the people that worked here, the the factory managers and and and lots of other people had known me since I was 12 years old. Um, so you do you have this sort of quite interesting dynamic when you when you come in where everybody thinks you're quite young, but suddenly you're you're quite senior. And equally, um, I think the you find the balance with with uh you know with my father. Initially you're sort of, you know, I'm trying to learn a lot of uh learn a lot of him, and then and then gradually you you know, we I think we spent a lot of time talking about how to hand over sort of bits of responsibility and and what he wanted to hand over and and and and what would be good for me to to take on. And I think it's it's a really important balance. Um strangely enough, it's something that lots of people, you know, who you're friends and what have you have an opinion on. And uh, but but actually, I think the what what I'm really proud of is I know not every father and son partnership is is successful. Um and my father just retired last year. I'd been in the business for 20 years, and in all that time we you know we got on really well. And I learned an awful lot from my father, and I think it was a very successful relationship. And I and I think that that very much is it is about thinking about it and about what how you you know how you um you work with each other and and uh and allowing each other to do, you know, my father was very ambitious to keep doing certain things. I was very ambitious to to to not you know to take on responsibility for things. And um, and so I guess um, you know, really as as as with a lot of things in life, I think communication is the key. And we we talked about these things a lot, and I think came to the right, by and large came to the right conclusions.

SPEAKER_01 11:02

Yeah, because you're absolutely right, you know, that following following businesses, you know, it it can be this uh tricky to, you know, because of the that behind it. But it sounds like you've always had that partnership there. You mentioned, you know, how good it was working with you there. What do you think the biggest lessons were that you learned under your dad's leadership, I guess, for for a while?

SPEAKER_00 11:23

Um well, I guess I guess uh if I would if I was just gonna pick out a few um off the top of my head, I think I think he has a very good nap for not seeming too busy. Um as uh you know at the top of the at the top of the company. You I think as a as a managing director, you can you can work, you know, you can you can never have enough time to do everything you want to do. Uh I think my father was very good at having time for every employee, every customer, and never appearing too busy. Um, and I think that's actually quite a skill. Yeah. Um, he's pretty pretty good at delegating. That's very, very important. I mean, he's definitely taught me the importance of delegating to allow yourself to have time um to ultimately be the figurehead of the company.

SPEAKER_01 12:10

Yeah, 100%. And and really key lessons. Um, a lot of people who step into their father's shoes or the grandfather's shoes and and you know, whatever you know, generation businesses feel a certain pressure to perform, probably more so than than not a fine business, because the you know the pressures it there's an emotional attachment there as well. How did you deal with that? And is that something I guess is ongoing or something you had to initially deal with?

SPEAKER_00 12:35

Um I I think um I think to be honest, I'd had a bit of practice in my old life. I'd been on I'd been on uh graduate fast track schemes and things like that, where it's it's not a totally different thing. You you're being thrown in sort of at the deep end. There's lots of older, you know, you're you're a so young, fresh face graduates, and you're dealing with lots of older, more senior people that you're in sometimes some places having to tell them what to do. So I sort of got used to that angle. I would say because of the nature of the business here, I was very well supported. Um, I think my father very much didn't interfere in the detail of things. And I think you know, very senior people in the company, like the factory manager, Steve Pittham in particular, were very supportive, very patient with me in explaining things that I didn't necessarily know about. Um, but I think when you're in that position, it it's important not to be afraid to ask. And um, you know, and and uh and I think have confidence that that you that you will be supported and and um so I yeah, I think it it is very much about having a sort of two-way two-way relationship, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:46

Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_00 13:47

And also implenty of confidence as well.

SPEAKER_01 13:49

Yeah, and imagine the the transition for obviously becoming my director and your dad, obviously leaving the business, that that in itself is a is a new is a new chapter, and uh, you know, and scary, but but also quite exciting, imagine to you know to be able to have that autonomy to do that.

Growing An SME Without Losing Touch

SPEAKER_01 14:07

I presumably obviously I'm sure Sol with his support in some sort of background sense in that sense. Um how you know you've come from a background which obviously is a very different world, it's a you know big corporate beast, it's a very different machine. What's it been like transitioning to uh you know to a small business? I mean, size the business now now, guy. How many people are on site as it as it stands? Uh we I think at the moment we've got 18 employees. Okay, so nice, nice small business where you know it'll have that family feel to it as well, you know, everyone, and that's a it that's a skill in itself. You know, what what's you know, for for a lot of companies, a lot of companies get are in that and and want to get to a certain headcount or growth and similar size business to mine, and and actually a lot of companies stay in that area. What from potentially experience you've gained before you've you've come into this business, what do you think the difference is between um a business now and a and a business getting to that to 20 to 30 to 40? Is it a different process? Is it a different culture? What are your thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_00 15:09

Well, it's an interesting question because we've we've probably um I think we've got a we've got a smaller headcount than we had uh you know, certainly 20 years ago and and and probably probably even 15 years ago. That's partly because we've mechanised deliberately. Um I think that the the sorts of manual work that we have in the factory, I think we've we've we've uh recognized that there's there's there's um you know with health and safety laws, there's repetitive strain, injury uh risks and things like that. So we've we've invested in things to uh to mitigate that. Um but yeah, to go back to your your question, you know, what what's important about having slightly more people, what do you do for for growth and and and that kind of thing. Um I think I think it is important to understand who you can you know what what size of group you group you can effectively communicate to. Um I think that you know certainly you know we've got a we've probably got a leadership of about five. I think that's a really that's a really good number to directly communicate to. And then it and then I think the next number's sort of about 25. So so again, that's always worked quite well for us because we've never really been, I mean, I I think we probably had 30 at the most, but but those are quite good numbers in terms of the the hierarchy structure. Um I think if we uh if we wanted to get to 50 people or 75 or something like that, I think we'd have to have a real think about the the management structure and and and how we and and certainly, you know, at the moment I think I'm in a situation where I can pretty much go round the factory and say hello to every person in the company and they and they can directly communicate to me. And that's that's great, but it it does it does mean the communication challenge isn't the same as if we had 50 people, and I definitely wouldn't be able to go around and say hello to every person in the you know the in the business on a on a sort of almost daily basis.

SPEAKER_01 17:06

Yeah, and you know what, I think, I think the industry has changed. I think um, you know, growth, I think good look used to look like how big is your headcount? And it and that is very much it's changed. I think you know you've got obviously your automation processes change that are tied to where it is expensive now to have people, and I think we've seen a reduction in headcount over the last sort of 18 months, I would say, across construction and manufacturing for obvious reason. But actually, I think it's now changed to process is much more important. What can we get out of the out of these people? You know, how can we create an environment and a culture where they're happy and they're thriving and they're you know they want to stay within the business. Um, how much out of interest, how much do you talk about culture, you know, as a as a leadership team? Is that something spoken about?

SPEAKER_00 17:52

Uh I think we we do. I don't I don't think we're necessarily always that aware that we're talking that we're talking about it. We don't we don't necessarily say let's have a culture meeting, you know, meeting about culture today. But I think we're I think we very much we're very aware of um of you know of of how of how things are perceived, you know, particularly with employees, but but even but you know all stakeholders of the business. Um so so yeah, I think there's there's again it comes back to this thing about the size of because we're quite a small company, we can we can have informal conversations about how certain things are going to be perceived. Is that is that the you know, is that how how we want the message to come across? Um and so informally, I think we it's something that we consider to be very important, particularly of course to our customers, um, but but actually internally with our with our employees. And um, and yeah, I I think it's something that we actually you know talk about a lot, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:54

Excellent.

Emotional Intelligence And Managing Individuals

SPEAKER_01 18:55

I I'm always interested in in people's leadership journeys um and how that's evolved over time. And sometimes people don't think about it until they're forced to in situations like this where someone like me is asking the question. So I mean, I mean, out of interest, you know, how do you think your leadership has has evolved over time? If you if you think back to when you started versus now, what are the key lessons or what are even the key challenges you've you've had along the way? Because I think sometimes they're good to reflect on.

SPEAKER_00 19:20

I think um I think it's really important to um to sort of gauge who you know, so uh I think change your your how you do things for the individual or sort of tailor, you know, you know, there's some individuals that you you know you would take a completely different approach to get the most out of the than others. And and I think it's really important not just to sort of treat everybody as if they're the same, but treat everybody as a as an individual and think about what what that individual sort of wants and what's gonna get the most out of them.

SPEAKER_01 19:53

Yeah, excellent. So and and was was that something you had to learn the hard way, so to speak, or is it just something you've always been quite confident in?

SPEAKER_00 20:02

Yeah, I I I think to I think to some extent, I think the more the more experience you get, you you go, you go with with that person, I'm really gonna have to put in a lot of work, and and I think you know that they're they're gonna need a lot of help and and and I probably I probably need to get quite involved. And then with other people you think, actually, they do not want me to, I don't want to be interfering with them. I can they're very competent. I should the best thing I can do is let them get on with it, show an interest in them, and showing it, I mean it's always important to show an interest in what people are doing, but but ultimately, you know, that person, I'll let them get on with it. That person I can see they need a bit of help, and uh, and it's probably more important that I, you know, I support them a bit more closely.

SPEAKER_01 20:46

And that it's emotional intelligence, isn't it? You know, which you know, 20, 30 years ago, you know, I appreciate it's it's a term, but you know, I I don't it wasn't as prevalent as it is now, you know, to have that way of management. It was before it was much more, you know, it was my way on the highway, and I think a lot of South leaders did, and and that it just doesn't thankfully it just doesn't ride anymore. People need a manager who's gonna actually gonna listen to them and exactly that, gonna understand that if there's something happening externally, which is meaning they are not dealing with their day-to-day how they typically are, and I think it is easier when you're a small business, but it but it's still it's still a uh a leadership trait that can be can be taught and can be learned with experience, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 21:33

Very much so. And you and I think you you notice and learn a lot from from managing different people from different generations. So that you know the the the I would say there's probably as a it's a bit of a generalization, but there's there's more sort of deference to authority from older generations. Um but equally, you know, you younger generations, or and I I don't know whether it's something that just comes with youth and and changes as people get older, but but I I think with youth certainly. um you know they're they're perhaps not so appreciative of that if you if you like but but but you you can you can get a lot by by um you know listening to what they've got to say and and giving them some some freedom to do to do what they think is a a good idea and and um and and that equally can you know can get really rewarding results.

Theo James Recruitment Message

SPEAKER_01 22:22

Yeah 100% apologies for interrupting this episode with a very quick announcement about my business. Theo James are a specialist talent provider specifically to the manufacturing and engineering sector. I'm incredibly proud of what we've achieved since our inception in 2015. We specialise in roles from semi-skilled trades right the way up to our TJ Exec search arm of the business both on the contract and permit side we offer both bespoke one off campaigns for heart of roles or a full partnership service where we become an extension of your business. For any information please get in touch with me or the team I hope you enjoy the rest of the episode.

SPEAKER_00 23:01

Thank

Energy, Regulation, And Market Shifts

SPEAKER_00 23:02

you the last 10 years has been challenging in a lot of our industries um to say the least there has been uh you know if someone had said to you 10 years ago we're gonna have Brexit we're gonna have COVID we're gonna have wars we have supply chain chaos all this type of stuff you've probably gone no it's it's up it just has set it seemed and it still seems like it's something something after another and it's so many challenges as companies and leads who've had to we've had to be to pivot and to be agile what's been the biggest change or or biggest barrier that you've had to overcome as a business you think since you've been there um well I mean there's it's there's there's quite a few things to choose from yeah there is unfortunately there isn't and and you can you can look at it in different ways I mean just in very tangible ways if you like um you know that in our industry the increase in the cost of energy has been a a massive change and a and a big a big challenge for for for anybody in in industry I think we've we've had a lot of new regulations some of them some of them good you know that they're they're not not all for the worst but I think they I think whenever they arrive new regulation always presents a a a challenge or I would say a almost a fear of dread you're like you know what you know what have they done what what have they done now and what's interesting is normally after you've worked through it it's in my experience it's not it's not it's never normally quite as bad as you think it's gonna be um when you've worked out what they actually what they actually want and and actually a lot of the challenge is is just getting your head around how little you need to do and not not sort of goal placing it and doing far more than's actually required and making a real chore of it if you know what I mean. But yeah regulation has has certainly been been a challenge. I think that the there've been changes in in um in in in the attitudes of of um the workforce the the the the labour market um and I think um certainly I it is I think it's got harder to to recruit um I would say um but equally when you get you can find the right people and we have I think the the a lot of our success at the moment uh I think we've got a really good team and that it that is quite a lot of that is down to being patient about finding the right people so and and and it it's very often it's getting a round peg in a round hole um and uh but but certainly that that's been a challenge we have had to be patient with but I would say you know we we have got a very good team there in the end so it's been worth persevering with.

SPEAKER_01 25:51

Yeah and and that that's great to hear actually I think with a lot of people listening going we're struggling we're struggling with finding good people you know and and you know it's it is it is a problem.

SPEAKER_00 26:01

I'd

Hiring For Fit And Keeping People

SPEAKER_00 26:02

like to put your brains around that if that's okay because I think you're absolutely right there has been a lot of round peg square hole not round peg round hole and I think people have just uh hoped and presumed and and gone with their gut that people work out and you know probably ignored things they they shouldn't have that doesn't happen by accident so how have you how have you done that you think you mentioned the patient speech was interesting itself but how have you found good people for your business because it's a it is one of the biggest holes in a lot of people's business that they just either can't find people or they're finding the wrong people and wasting a lot of time um I think to some extent they find us you you know you you appoint people you have a you have an interview you don't really know that much about them at the end end of the interview and the amount of times being sat there with the recruitment consultant and you go through and you and you do think I I really don't know and you just have to pick someone but I think you can soon you can soon realize if somebody really appreciates their job um that that doesn't take that long to work out and uh and and if they and you can also I think you can also quite soon work out if somebody is struggling with their job and they can be trying really hard but they can be but you can you you can soon you can sort of start to get this niggling niggly feeling you almost you you really want the want it to work out for them but you're like thinking no this person is I don't think they're right for the job and I I think it is really hard but the right thing to do to say at a really early stage I'm really sorry I don't think it's working out um and um and not you know not to I think if you were asking about maybe things I've learned and mistakes I've maybe made I think in the past I've maybe persevered with people for for too long who haven't been right for a job and then you look back and think I don't think I was helping I wasn't helping the company and I don't think I was helping them either kind of thing.

SPEAKER_01 27:57

Yeah I I mean I I massively resonate with that because I think you know I I personal experience as a leader I really want I really want people to do well and I don't want people to fail and and I think um sometimes you if you see someone failing there's something you to go I'm I can I can help them I can help them and and this is the what this this is one they're just you know they'll they'll get there they just need some support and and they often don't unfortunately is it and and that it is it's difficult putting your business head on sometimes isn't it and try and be a bit more data led with certain things but that I think as it's another leadership less isn't it that um you know you've you've got to make the right decision for the business which is normally the best decision for them because it just if it's not right it's not right and there's nothing you can do about it sometimes is it yeah I I think it and it to some extent it hurts your own sense of pride you kind of you you kind of think as a manager I should be able to get this person to to succeed and overcome their problems and and and and I think sometimes in the cold light of day you just have to go no no it's just it's they're just not the right person for here and and and you just have to make the decision and and it it it that can be hard sometimes. Some people believe in in interviewing people very technically in terms of skill set wise some people believe it's more about the the the values and the attitudes um what are your thoughts when when someone's in front of you and you're you know you're hiring for the business and and particularly a business like yours because you can't no one can hire in a in a business of 18 people you know they need to be right and everyone will it's it's the classic you're only as good as the weakest person and so everyone will see that how do you know what good looks like when you're hiring for the business I think they need to be I think it's it's really important that they're a good fit for the job that they're going to be really grateful for the for the job.

SPEAKER_00 29:47

So you can have I don't know somebody who's technically brilliantly qualified but if if actually they know they could you know they could earn more money somewhere else or they they could you know they've got ambitions to be somewhere else or the the you know that it's not going to fit their family life or the location that they live at it's it you know it's it's not going to work um then that's for me that's the most important thing. I think you need you need to be going you know this person's at a certain stage in their career where or whatever it is where this is going to be a really good fit for what they you know for their personal goals um whether it's the family you know fitting in their family life, whether it's what they want to achieve at work, what it is. And I think I think where you if you if you're lucky enough at interviews to be able to see yeah this person's a a really good fit I would rather take a chance on the technical skills or whatever it is because I know somebody's a really you know going to really appreciate having the job um that we can train them and so on than than than have to have somebody who's sort of qualified to the nth degree to do what you're doing.

SPEAKER_01 30:56

Yeah I I I I really agree with that because I think and I I don't know if I've said that here before but it makes sense that you know they have to be great and I think some of them are girl they have to be grateful you know what what but I agree with you because actually it's it's you know as business owners it's it's our job to create an environment where people want to come to work and be happy and then we work very hard to do that. So if we create that environment then I I completely agree you hire people who are grateful to work in that because ultimately without that there's a sometimes a level of of entitlement and it's very hard to train people like that and bring those people into your culture because I think good businesses the best businesses I see are the ones where the leadership team would would run for a brick wall for the team and vice versa and and that that creates a a good culture of a company who are who are loyal to each other and typically there you see the best retention rates. I I agree that where if you get people who just know they can walk out for a pound two pound more whatever it is you know than they typically do but it's the people who are really grateful for their employees and what the employees are put in front of them isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 32:05

Yeah very much so I mean I I think you know our business has been through through quite a quite a tough time recently um but but one of the one of the things which which I've found really uplifting is is the the the loyalty of the team that we've got you know they they've basically everybody stayed with us um and and I think that says a lot about them as as employees and individuals um and it's you know it's it's something that that's uh that I'm very proud of I'm gonna put you on the spot here but my hard to answer this question why why do you think they've stayed with you um I think I think they're I think they they like the business um I think they're all good at their jobs. I think if you you know if you if you know if you know inside you're good at your job it it that's a good reason to to what to want to stay. And I think the size of the size of the business that we are and the type of management that we have I think you know I think my father was very was very important um in that I think he was a he was a very he was a very good boss. I think everybody everybody respected him everybody knew what he knew how committed he was to the business. He was putting his own money in he sold his house so on and so forth and they knew how committed he was to brickmaking and and so I I think I think that that generated a huge amount of loyalty. And I think we respect you know I think my father and myself I think we respect the people working for us that they you know that that that they are good and you know they're very good at what they do and and and actually you know quite often the best thing we can do is is let them do their jobs how they want to do them because they do it very well.

SPEAKER_01 33:50

Yeah

Sustainability And The Future Of Brickmaking

SPEAKER_01 33:52

you you're obviously passionate about the business but you're obviously passionate about the industry as well of you know the industry of of ricks and ceramics and and and and um all that comes with it what for people don't know much about that industry what are the misconceptions or you know what what what would your thoughts be on that because I it is one of those industries where I think you've got to work in it to really understand it. Are there certain things happening or challenges at the moment that I guess you're having to work through or even opportunities for that matter um so just just repeat the question again sorry so it's an industry I think you've got to work in to to understand. You know a lot of people don't don't know about it. What are the current challenges you see or opportunities to some extent uh either or that are you you're seeing or facing industry at the moment and it could be good or bad there it could be either side yeah I mean I I I guess a lot of it is whether they're opportunities or threats a lot of it depends how you how you view it.

SPEAKER_00 34:48

Yeah exactly view it in a positive way or a negative way um I I think I think there is an opportunity if you like on the environmental standpoint. I think inherently brick has a lot of really good things going for it and that's why it's been around for 5,000 years. The thing that people would point out is you need fossil fuel you've got to fire the bricks to a thousand degrees um so you need a there's a lot of embodied carbon in a brick where I think the opportunity is for us to cut that um we ourselves are looking at um recovering heat from the kilns in a in a state of the art modern way um we're looking at at um relationships with our neighbours which might help us um maybe get a private wire connection for a for electric because because they're they're generating electric uh uh electric but that's something only we that that's something that we can do because of the geography of the site there's there's an opportunity there um just uh in the wider industry uh I think the first kiln in the UK certainly that's that fires bricks purely on hydrogen so effective effectively that's that's sort of carbon carbon carbon free if the if the hydrogen is made with uh renewable energy um so so that you know I think I think then that shows us that we can all get to net zero by 2025 in in brickmaking and and that there's a really good future so I think there's there's lots of opportunities to make our product not just there's there's a difference trans to sustainability I think not just environmentally sustainable but we you know we I think there's only 25 bench uh handmade brickmakers left in the in the in the UK uh the heritage crafts association do a do a survey um and so I think we can continue to have people who have these skills but we need we need to embrace the modern the modern technology to to enable us to do that in in the modern world so that there's heritage sustainability and then that leads to the sort of financial state uh sustainability of of of what of what we're doing. So I think definitely um we there's lots of the challenges are high energy high higher material costs higher labour costs but I think the opportunities are embracing new machinery new technology uh and I'm not everybody talks about AI I'm I'm talking about uh more you know maybe more mechanical automation yeah yeah um you know embrace these things don't see them as as sort of threats that other people are doing and we can't do I think we need to embrace embrace them tailor them to our particular niche um and um and I think that way um you know we can we can we can make sure that we've got a specialism um that's needed in the market.

New Products And Smart Investment

SPEAKER_00 37:44

Yeah brilliant and really well put and and what's what are you excited about in the next sort of 12 to 18 months in the in the business what's so what's happening what's what's on the on the agenda well there's there's there's lots uh i think i think uh we are developing we're developing we've been developing new products but i think we're we're bringing those to market one that i'm particularly excited about is uh we're developing a a new range of buff of buff bricks um and the buff and greys i think they're they're very much wanted in the market but also because we've invested uh one and a half million pounds in a new machine when to be honest a lot of brickmakers were not wanting to invest because it's hard times um but uh so we now have this state of the art machine it can make new textures uh lovely what we call water struck uh uh finish finishes only I mean there's only other two other factories in the UK but we can do it in different size formats and long thin bricks uh the the different textures um and and so that makes some really exciting uh permutations of brick that you can only get from York and made and I I think to for the architectural specification market I hope that's really exciting to to to that sector of the market that we're very much targeting.

SPEAKER_01 39:01

Yeah it is and I think one of the biggest lessons in there as well is and I know it isn't always possible but if if you can invest invest because you know I you know that like you say there is a change coming and we have to embrace it and uh you know whether whether I think automation is is just a necessity.

SPEAKER_00 39:17

I think we made the investment before COVID really we made the decisions to invest before covet and then after covet of course there were there was a huge labour shortage particularly straight after it straight after to COVID and I think that you know there still is there still is now it hasn't it hasn't really uh changed much uh I don't think we could have got through without having the new machine that that's that's able to to to make the bricks with with a with a slightly you know a smaller number of men I I I don't think I think we I think we'd hoped hoped our our volume and our market would grow but what we've been able to do is maintain maintain what we were doing with with with fewer people and actually that's been absolutely essential with the with the challenges that I don't think anybody foresaw would with with the the increase in in labour costs and things like that but uh but it has enabled us to to um to deal with them.

SPEAKER_01 40:08

Excellent

Final Reflections And Thanks

SPEAKER_01 40:09

amazing and and thank you so much because it's been fascinating because as I say I'm I'm always fascinated by family owned businesses because I just think that that itself is is and I and and I love how how well you've spoken about your your father and your dad and that that and that is we'll say it's rare but it's definitely not common. You know this there's this you know sometimes that doesn't run so smoothly so the fact you've got such a good partnership and and you've been able to take the business on I think in itself is is excellent and obviously it's uh these the businesses that these the SMEs and the the businesses that that prop up the economy and we need to support and we need to help and and should never be neglected. So I think you know I I would I've been on the website it's amazing so I'd urge anyone everyone to go on there and have a have a look because um some of the stuff you're producing is is brilliant and I just think really enjoy talking to you about your journey and the the business and the the culture behind it and I think there's loads of little lessons there um that I've taken away so uh so thanks guy it's it's been great really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 41:06

It's a pleasure Mark it's been a been a pleasure to to be here.

Like, Subscribe, And Get In Touch

SPEAKER_01 41:09

Thank you so much for listening or watching this episode of the Manufacturing Leaders podcast please just like or subscribe it really helps grow the show and obviously improve the industry. If you want any more information about Theo James as I mentioned midway through the episode please get in touch with me or the team I would love to talk about how we can help you directly or your business. We are more than just a recruiter and I know people say that but it's something I'm incredibly passionate about. We are in business for much more than just a bums on seats approach. We want to help people grow we want to help improve their lives and ultimately I want to work with businesses and people who share the same values as we do and that's something I'm incredibly passionate about. So please if that is you and you are passionate about that dream role or passionate about your people please get in touch with me or the team I would absolutely love to talk a bit more detail. Thank you very much. Speak soon