Katie O'Brien: Changing Culture in a 100-Year-Old Manufacturing Business

In this latest episode of the Manufacturing Leaders Podcast, Mark welcomes Katie O’Brien, General Manager of HR at Komatsu, to discuss leadership, workplace culture and the complexities of creating change within a well-established manufacturing business.

The conversation explores the qualities Katie believes are essential in effective leaders, including curiosity, judgement and commitment.

Katie explains how these traits can influence leadership decisions, strengthen relationships and help create a more positive culture throughout an organisation.

She also discusses the challenges involved in transforming long-established leadership styles and the importance of encouraging leaders to remain open, ask questions and understand the experiences of their teams.

The episode explores employee engagement, meaningful work and what businesses can do to create an environment where people feel valued, supported and fulfilled.

Katie shares valuable insight into how leadership behaviours shape workplace culture and why lasting change requires commitment from leaders at every level of an organisation.

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Transcript

Welcome And Why Culture Matters

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Manufacturing Leaders Podcast with me, Mark Bracknell, Managing Director of Theo James Recruitment. Today we welcome Katie O'Brien, the general manager of human resources at Kamatu. Komatsu are a hundred-year-old business based in Berkeley. I absolutely love interviewing people who work for businesses like this to open the doors and lift the bonnet on a business like that to restand, I guess, that secret source that makes it so great. What was fascinating about this episode is we talked about culture. We talked about changing the culture, even at a business with such a great reputation, with a low retention, not many levers, the importance of actually still looking at changing the culture for the better. We talked specifically about their leadership program, which is both internal and external. We talked about the importance of why we try to change things in business and actually why that is important to Katie. Ultimately, we both share the same desire that you should not dread coming to work. I know that sounds ridiculous, but a lot of people do not enjoy their workplace. A lot of people wait patiently until it's 5 p.m. on a Friday. I don't think that should be the case. I honestly think people should thrive and enjoy coming to work. And we share that same belief. And we talked about that on this episode and how in the position you're in as a HR leader, you're in a perfect position to start to change that mindset mentality work. This is a really fascinating episode where we talked about Katie's career from recruitment right the way into HR and HR leadership. Um, so please sit back and enjoy. This is definitely one of those episodes where you're gonna resonate a lot with, but also take some tangible tips and takeaways. Thank you very much for uh Katie for being so open and honest in this interview. As ever, please help me grow the channel and grow the show by liking and subscribing. But thank you very much. I hope you enjoy the episode. Right, a massive warm welcome today to Katie O'Brien, who's the general manager of Kamatsu. I absolutely can't wait to meet you today. So uh a warm welcome, Katie. How are you?

SPEAKER_01 1:59

Thank you very much. Yeah, uh just general manager of HR, by the way, not of the uh whole business.

SPEAKER_00 2:03

Yes, yes, it's uh really looking forward to this. Um, we've got some a nice um some comment good conversations, I'm sure will flow. First question is the same question I ask everybody, which is what does it mean to you to be a leader?

SPEAKER_01 2:17

Yeah, I've uh been thinking about this a lot because I've listened to some of your podcasts before and trying to think of something that doesn't sound like it's just from a textbook. Um I think leadership for me is uh ultimately it's about bringing people along to get to where you where you want to go. But I think there's three key things for me, which are uh curiosity. I think that's really important to learn more about your own specialism. So for me, HR, but also you know, for leadership, your own organization and being open-minded to different ideas and continuously learning. Um, however, if you're just curious all the time, you won't get anything done ever, or you're sort of changing your direction all the time. So I think there's a there's also something in there about judgment. You won't always get it right, but you have to be willing to decide things. And sometimes there's no obvious answer. There's a lot of nuance. And so you're making the best decision out of either some like lots of really good opportunities or lots of potentially bad ones, and you've got to go with something. So being able to commit to that, and then the final one then is commitment to be able to commit to them to what you what you're trying to achieve. It was not always easy, and you might get some pushback initially, but if it's the right thing to do, sort of being prepared to stay the course and and and carry it on. Um and that's sometimes commitment to the people, commitment to the organization, and sometimes the the best thing is to, you know, people might change course, um, but it's uh I don't know, yeah, having commitment, I think important.

SPEAKER_00 3:44

Which is interesting, because I guess they're linking very nicely also and it's almost like when you say commitment there, I was actually thinking of the commitment to yourself and the decision you make sometimes because actually you're right, as leaders, we have to make certain decisions, you have to commit to that. It's not to say you're you're all in, you can't come back and you can't hold your hands up and say, actually, that was wrong. But actually, once you've made it, you have to commit to carrying it through. And that that that's that's a tricky process sometimes, isn't it? You have to learn that.

SPEAKER_01 4:10

Yeah, it is, and um, we've definitely there definitely been some decisions we've made that are not necessarily super popular, and you get some immediate kickback. And the easiest thing in w in the world would be to say, Okay, we won't do it then, you know, and people might feel happier in the short term, but if it's the right thing to do, then you've got to kind of go with your convictions and and just and push through, really. Um, and uh we're doing a lot of culture change at the moment, and and it isn't easy. And one of the things that was leveled at us when we introduced it was, are you just doing it this because it's when it uh when it's quiet, yeah, it gets busier, you won't sort of carry it on. And we've had some people saying we don't actually really want to come to the events that you're doing, and but we know it's the right thing, and so we are committed to it and we are continuing to push it, um, despite some still some pockets of resistance, um and that is important because we could have just turned around and said, Oh, yeah, you're right, well, forget it, to go back to how it was. But that would definitely wouldn't be the right thing to do.

SPEAKER_00 5:05

I've I've just had this exact conversation actually with uh funny with another HR leader who um because I was asking about change and do you have any resistance from from from the top? Um, and they had the same issue that you talk about there, and actually I resonate with it because a lot of changes we've made in the business, sometimes you just want to create change and create change, and and we we we mean very well, but actually there's carrying through with it. But actually, if you don't, if it said something new every month and something new every month, and and then it's changed, they'd almost lose favor that it's just another change, it's just another change, and and we'll we'll have go with it, but this this one will be out the window, you know. So I've learned that the hard way actually is sometimes you have to give something a lot of time and not just the first hurdle you get go actually doesn't work, we haven't got the buy-in, let's try something else. It's a it's a difficult judgment, that which gets back to the other point of that, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 5:56

Yeah, yeah, it is, it is. And I I'm generally inclined to, you know, what's the next new thing, what's the next new thing, and especially with leadership development, it's like, well, what's a new tool I can give people? But actually, uh we've sort of taken stock a couple of times and said actually, what we need to do is go back to the beginning almost and remind people what the initial tools were and re-embed um what embed the uh the same techniques over and over so that it becomes more of a habit rather than oh, here's another one, here's another one, here's another one.

SPEAKER_00 6:26

Yeah, yeah. Curiosity has never been said it before, which was uh it's interesting because I um I did a lot of work with uh UTC in New Acely for Specialist College, and one of the themes they had in the last session was they were asking what traits can should they be helping to teach young people and what traits would young people want to show in the world. And I said curiosity because actually, and then there was a bit like not sure at first, but I said it is because actually I think I think young people who are curious about the career or about their their colleagues or about the business, I think that that's almost like a real hidden trait that people don't show necessarily, but it's um it's it's a leisure trait, but it's just a trait that I think people who do well in business have.

SPEAKER_01 7:11

Yeah, yeah, that 100%. I um it's my new kind of buzzword. Um it's just I think it's so important. And just being curious to think about how you could do your job a little bit better. So it's not just for leaders by any means. In fact, I again when I was thinking about this, I thought those three things are also how you would describe a really committed or high-performing employee, would be all those things. Um just we're looking at like digital tools and things like that at the moment, and people being curious to just try using AI for something or to use a a different tool to see how they could do their job a bit better. But if you're not curious, if you're just doing the same thing every day, you'll never find that way forward or that way out. So um, yeah, I do I think it's it and it for for kids as well. I definitely think it's a really important skill. And they're so curious when they're younger.

SPEAKER_00 8:00

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:02

What when do we when do we teach people to stop being curious?

SPEAKER_00 8:05

Exactly that. And is that because it's you know, it can link in with you can go on forever, but it links in with emotional intelligence. If you talk about your own self-development, you know, what why do I what when I'm doing this, why do I feel a certain way? Or or what is about this that I enjoy, what is about this that I don't enjoy and frustrates me. It's that curiosity in ourselves and how we feel as well, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 8:23

Yeah, it is, yeah. And I I I enjoy reading and listening to podcasts, and so I'm I'm constantly learning about leadership and yeah, and that sort of feeds into my practice at work and all this kind of stuff. So I it is just constantly being ready to think about new ideas, but like I say, you can go too far with it and then you may just never make a decision because you're too busy thinking of new ideas and never get anything done, or vice versa, you just uh uh change direction all the time.

SPEAKER_00 8:51

Yeah, 100%. I I'm interested, and I will go back to the culture piece and change. I think that'll be an interesting thing to talk through.

From Recruitment To HR Leadership

SPEAKER_00 8:58

I'm interested for people who don't know who you are to understand your your background because obviously, you know, um people come into HR from from various different avenues and and reasons. Um was it something you always wanted to do? Was it a course that you always wanted to go on to? That was the where I want to be, or how did you fall into the wonderful world of HR?

SPEAKER_01 9:17

Yeah, um, I don't I don't don't know exactly. Uh I did a philosophy degree, which isn't sort of doesn't naturally lead to a any particular career. Um I didn't really know what I wanted to do when I left uni, so I kind of fell into the job at Nigel Wright. Um I was a recruitment consultant then for five years, mostly for the first four years looking after finance recruitment, well not looking after doing finance recruitment. Um and it was such a good job for me because I was really naive. I didn't know anything about business really. I didn't understand really you know the different structures, what they did. So it was amazing to be able to spend all that time going out and visiting businesses around the Northeast getting to understand how they worked. And the one thing that I was reflecting on the other day, how it's impacted my current role is when you all know when you're matching a candidate and a business, an awful lot of it is about that fit and that culture. So being able to understand, you'd go out and meet a client and you'd spend an hour with them trying to understand the business, and being able to quickly decipher what their culture is, and then likewise you're meeting the candidates for an hour and then being able to match that. And I you know, and I think I'd got that right quite a lot of the time. Um and you know, you know, you'll know as well, you put a number of people forward for the for an interview, and you're like, oh, I know which one's gonna get it, it's gonna be this one. A lot of the time, not always, but some of the time you're right, um, because you know it's that they've got that cultural fit. Um, so I do think that that helps kind of but just that I don't know, it's almost like a gut feel to be able to judge that. Um and then I I did my CIPD at Niger Wright, so I did know at some point during that period, I guess, that I wanted to move into HR. And then I was um lucky to move into uh Axonabelle in a generalist HR role, which I think is quite unusual for people moving from not to just go into the internal recruitment role. Um and that was brilliant. I was there for 10 years, I did many different roles within that. Um so there were loads of different opportunities to learn, work with salespeople, manufacturing. Um I was on the Felling site, you know, a large site with a you know a lot of big manufacturing site. So yeah, it was uh definitely a great opportunity there to learn about um the HR and all of its different forms. Um and then yeah, came here five, just over five years ago. Um now manufacturing is my home.

SPEAKER_00 11:35

Yeah, and two great businesses, you know, two businesses with a wonderful name, a long history, and um but but but I think I think people can just presume that because a business has been going for a hundred so years or or have X Matter staff, that it's all easy and it's all it's you know, I think there's a misconception there where it's not, you know, every every company has its pros and cons, and and every company is different culture in every office, you know, Axabel would have had different culture at their felling site to what they will have now in their novelman site. And it's um, you know, people sort of um like that. I'm interested, it's interesting. In fact, you've come from that background because, like you say, you'll understand culturally on the recruitment side, because actually sometimes there is a transactional thought to recruitments where you'll understand that that isn't the case, and I imagine that helps you when you're speaking to hire managers and the operational piece that you know it's it's not just about the the interview process or actually interview process is so important because it's got to be uh it's got to be two ways. So, do you think in many ways I also imagine recruitments assault you some resilience and some some hard work on that side to it? So do you think that's helped you in in the career you've had?

SPEAKER_01 12:47

Uh yes, I think so. Uh undelling what motivates people and why people leave as well, I think you know, why people leave their job um and what's attractive to people. Um and I've always thought that if you go to an interview and you are yourself, and likewise, if the business is themselves, if it's not the right fit, like if you're rejected because you're not the right fit for a role, then that's a good thing because if you've been who you are, then it's not going to be the right job for you, so you wouldn't end up enjoying it. Um, so I I guess maybe that philosophic philosophy degree could be.

SPEAKER_00 13:23

We get by the curiosity piece, isn't it? Obviously, you've always been curious about you know about people and about how how everything works, and that's obviously a trait that you've always had, I imagine, since you were very little, I presume.

SPEAKER_01 13:36

Uh yeah, I haven't really thought about it, but yes, I probably have. Yeah, but you look back, yeah, yeah. It's um yeah, I am. I have been curious, and it's interesting to look back and reflect on that, which I haven't really done before.

Meaningful Work And Real Engagement

SPEAKER_00 13:51

You've obviously when we talked beforehand, and when we talked just then, you've mentioned culture a couple of times. Why is culture important to you, would you say?

SPEAKER_01 14:02

Um I we spend an awful lot of our time at work. Yeah, and I think it's important for everybody to kind of feel fulfilled at the end of the day. So my my ultimate aim is that I want everyone, ideally, maybe we'll never quite get to everyone, but when they're walking out the turnstiles at the end of the day, for everyone to feel like they've had not necessarily like a good day. I don't want to necessarily expect people to be skipping out of the turnstiles, but to feel like they've had a meaningful day or they've contributed. And you, you know, you've had we've all had awful days when it's been really, really hard, but you know, I've never left thinking, God, I never want to go back there again. You know, I've always thought, okay, well, it's been tough, but I've done something meaningful, done something good. Um, and I'd love that for everybody. I think that's really important. And I think that there's a key link between sort of your commitment to the organization and engagement. And it's kind of in a six level, really. So if you're committed to the organization, you're going to do a really good job and you're going to get meaning out of what you do, and that's going to make you feel engaged. But equally, it's really hard to be committed to what you're doing if you're not engaged. So there's this kind of uh, you know, I don't know what comes first, engagement or commitment. The two things are linked and then feed each other. Um, and that comes from the culture. You can't have committed, engaged employees if you've got a terrible culture where everyone hates um coming to work, and not that that's where we are or were, but um, you know, that that's ultimately what I'm aiming for.

SPEAKER_00 15:31

Yeah, I I I I can be agree. We, you know, I you and I have had this conversation before that it's uh it would be it's actually a fear for me to end up, you know, to to work in a position or have a role in any capacity that I dreaded every Sunday night coming. And so and and and it's a real it's a real sad thought in my eyes. A lot of people do feel like that. A lot of people feel like that, that they they live, they they live for the weekend, and you know, exactly that. I'm not needed to think people would skip coming to the office into my office. I I'm not I appreciate that, but it it would fill me to redread thinking people hate working here. But that is the reality, unfortunately, for a lot of a lot of the workforce in every in in many industries. And I think until people realize that that should change and needs to change, I don't think it will. Thankfully, there are people like you that obviously are in businesses to to do that who actually care because you've got to care about people before you really care about that problem, don't you? It's it has to, has to come from the heart.

SPEAKER_01 16:29

Yeah, it does. Um, and I I don't think anybody's sort of setting up a business with the intent of making their employees feel terrible. Um, but it it's an unintended consequence sometimes of the way that you do things. Um it you do have to be uh kind of I don't know, mindful or um conscious about what you're trying to do. It has to be deliberate to to achieve the culture that you're trying to achieve, I think. Um and it requires you know everyone to be on board. Um and that's really difficult. So you you're right when you were said about being with an established business, there are things that are easier in that we are well established, we've got a head office that will support us. You know, we're not um you know, we're not a small business where cash flow is a particular problem, for example, um, albeit you know, we still need to make money and things. But um, but the the counter to that is we've got people who've been here for a really long time, um, which has huge benefits as well. Uh, but it does mean then changing things is really difficult. Whereas you mentioned the sort of the accent Bell Ashington site, they were able to set up and define their culture from the beginning, how they wanted it to be, which is a huge, you know, and they've achieved it, it's brilliant. Um that's a a huge advantage in a way that you can set your stall out, you're not having to turn everybody around from one direction to the next.

SPEAKER_00 17:49

Um definitely pros and cons of a big bit of a I can't I can't believe you because I I'm I'm I I don't think 100 years ago people were talking about culture. Do you know what I mean? And I think if you the longer you've done something, the harder it is to change and longer it takes to change. Because actually, if you're working with someone who's worked for an organization for 40 years, they're probably, and I'm stereotyping in more resistant to change than someone who's been there for two years. It's you know that's that's probably I am stereotyping, but that's probably the reality in all honesty. So I agree, it it is there's massive pros and cons that. How do you start to change? Because there's a lot of really well-established manufacturing firms you have got, which is a real pro, they've got a lot of people who worked in that organization a long time, and that is, and unfortunately, a lot of those skills are going to walk out the door, and there's that other argument about succession planning. But how do you start to change a culture or tweak a culture because it's not something you can you can necessarily change overnight?

Changing Culture In A Legacy Firm

SPEAKER_01 18:46

Yeah, the way uh that we've been um that we approached it was so uh when I started, we did uh we started leadership development training um for a number of reasons. Um but we did. Um, and then sort of as we started through that for the first after the first few modules, we kind of had a pause and said, okay, what do we think our culture is? So we did the insights survey. Do you know the insights with the so we all did our surveys and we found that a lot of the management team were very blue and red? So we kind of stopped and thought, okay, well, what what impact does that have on the organization? If we're very task-focused, there's not that many people who are people focused, what's the impact? And it's like, well, maybe people don't feel like they're particularly like that they're focused upon. Um and so we as a leadership team then recognize that we needed to change the culture. So that was the first thing kind of getting everybody bought in. But I I believe that the biggest change in a culture is how you are led day to day. I think that's gonna have the biggest impact um and the biggest impact on engagement and commitment. Um because if if you're led well and you're treated well, that is gonna be the reason. That's more likely to be the reason that you stay above anything else. Um, but also then after becoming more and more conscious about those decisions that we're making. So we were quite a patriarchal um sort of top-down business and trying to shift that and trying to think about well, can we say yes to this request instead of saying no? And can we do more coaching, for example, and ask people their own to think of their own ideas, whereas before it'd been well, well, you ask me what to do, and I'll tell you. Yeah, and you know, and sort of empowering people a little bit more. So it was equipping leaders as far as possible with different tools to manage the business. And then we didn't actually kind of announce the plan for a culture change for a couple of years, uh, partly because we wanted to try and make some of those changes, not quite behind the scenes, but yeah. Um and then we we did announce it, and then we we then said these are the expectations for um everybody. This is what you can expect from the business, this is what we expect from you. Um and that it was quite interesting because I think once we kind of went out and said this is what we're trying to achieve, we recognize we're not there yet, but we this is what we want to be. You know, almost immediately people are like, Oh, hold on a minute, like if you're trying to achieve that, well, we're not there yet, so maybe it's worse than we thought it was. Um, so you we did get that kind of uh back a little bit, yeah. I guess sort of almost made it a little bit harder to begin with to push over that um that hump. Um but we're definitely getting there, and I I I feel um that's the word, I don't know, proud of what we what we've done so far. We haven't got to where I want to go, where I want to get to, but people are talking about the fact that things have changed. Um and I we had someone who left the business actually on for a period and went to um she went to work abroad and then came back. And uh she said, Oh, I could definitely I can feel the difference from you know over one, two years or something. So things like that. That were because you when you're day to day, you don't necessarily notice it all the time. It's like when you're watching your kids grow, you don't notice it.

SPEAKER_02 22:05

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:06

Um, but having someone come back and say, Oh, actually, yeah, I can see that, see all the change that's been uh happening is definitely a good moment.

SPEAKER_00 22:15

It's it's one of the most untapped resources that particularly the leadership piece, because it's a big problem in manufacturing that people are typically good at their job and they're brought in and they're thrust into management with without sometimes even putting their hand up, particularly now, I would say, because actually, particularly now where companies are tightening their belts a little bit and they perhaps haven't got the cash flow to bring in an external manager. Um, I think the right thing to do is look within. But there's one thing organically looking and promoting people, but actually they've got to be ready to manage because that it's the hardest job going from an engineer, for example, to a manager, and suddenly your colleagues now work for you in essence, without and in that that's a real quick way for people to sort of lose touch with the organisation, and people still leave for poor management more so I think than than anything else benefits and and and salary on that side to it. I I think there's a big gap between people getting mismanaged because their managers haven't been trained effectively. And I think actually, if you've had the confidence to not only have the promotion to to a manager level, but actually to have had the training, you know, officially, whether that be, and that's another question I guess, whether it be external trainer, because there is a difference sometimes than someone's quite proud to go, actually, I'm going through an official you know leadership qualification at I ILM, I'm level five, versus uh, this is a uh a Kamatsu training program that we're doing at Gankley. There's pros and cons to that. Which way have you done? Have you almost created your own leadership school, or have you gone through official qualifications to so they they have X, Y, and Z?

SPEAKER_01 23:50

Yeah, if we do a bit of both, so we've run the ILM five program with sort of on site with an on-site cohort with an external um trainer. So it's been ILM5 betailed to us, so that's been really positive. Um, but the leadership development I was just talking about then was bespoke. It was actually um based on, or I used um a book called uh the balanced lead, the balance of the leadership balance scorecard. I can't remember exactly what it's called by Jeff Body. And it was really interesting. So it's about focusing on understanding yourself, understanding your team, and then there's the organizational part of the brand part. But it was the first book I'd read that was really um actually pretty practical in terms of how you can uh kind of build an inclusive culture.

SPEAKER_02 24:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:36

Um and and so that's what we did. So we focused on understanding yourself a bit more first, then translate that into okay, well, what does that mean for your team and how you manage your team? Um, so and some of that we delivered, or I myself and my team have delivered, some of it we use external consultants depending on what the the topic is. So we've we've mixed it up a little bit. And I'm I'm a big believer in using different trainers because I think they um they bring different skills, and some people are more um I don't know, feel more connected to it, some trainers than others. Um and that yeah, they bring different different ideas. So uh yeah, a bit of everything. But I I do agree that being promoted within your own team is incredibly difficult. Um and I I we've just started actually over the last sort of year or so trying to put in more focus support for people during that transition time. And that's something we want to do going forward, is probably sometimes an internal coach, because we have now we've trained some internal coaches and sometimes external, you know, a bit of support before they take the role and then afterwards. So, what are the key things that they need to focus on to make them make that jump effective? And it's not about you know what systems they need to use, it's about that kind of the personal change that they need to make um to be successful.

Theo James Recruitment Announcement

SPEAKER_00 25:49

Apologies for interrupting this episode with a very quick announcement about my business. Theo James are a specialist talent provider, specifically to the manufacturing and engineering sector. I'm incredibly proud of what we've achieved since our inception in 2015. We specialise in roles from semi-skilled trades right the way up to our TJ Exec search arm of the business, both from the contract and permit side. We offer both bespoke one-off campaigns for heart of full roles or a full partnership service where we become an extension of your business. For any information, please get in touch with me or the team. I hope you enjoy the rest of the episode. Thank you. Well,

Vision Values And Shop Floor Comms

SPEAKER_00 26:29

you've obviously made some changes which have had an impact, which is great, and it isn't easy and it does take time, and it is you never nail it. It's always changing, it's always it's always gradually. I guess you create the feedback. Where would you, in a perfect world, if you fast forward five years' time, where would you love to get to? Where would you get to a stage where you go, I'm I'm sure you're proud already, but I'm super proud, and and this is this is exactly this is what I vision should happen. What would what would that look like for you?

SPEAKER_01 26:57

Um I think it would be um if you were to come into the organization, for example, and walk around if you were to go up to somebody and sort of ask them, you know, what it feels like to work here, for example, they'd tell you a good story, um, but they'd know what the vision is, what we're trying to achieve, they'd know what our purpose is, they'd know what our values are, but not necessarily like word for word, but also but the essence of what we're trying to achieve. Um and I I like I said, I mean, you can't really measure it, but yeah, it's possible to measure.

SPEAKER_00 27:30

It's a feeling, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 27:31

It's that feeling of when people leave, like I say, that that is that they feel fulfilled when they're when they're leaving. And you know, there's an element of we have recommended the commandsu is a good great place to work, for example. You know, that's a good sign, but we have that already, actually, for a to a large degree.

SPEAKER_00 27:46

Um, but people yeah, just wanting to come to work and yeah, being able to articulate what we're what we're aiming for and participating in that by the word journey, but in one of the um one of the challenges that I hear a lot of HR leaders face in businesses, particularly in probably bigger organizations, is the the almost the transparency between or the the the lack of in communication, I guess, gap between people who are on the shop floor, for example, and let's say office-based staff, because actually it's quite easy to get communication down to office-based staff. Everyone's on email, you know, it's it's it's easier to talk to those people because they're they're in the room together, they're not on shift, they're all you know, they're perhaps nine to five. And then there's people who work on the shop floor who don't have access to email, they are on shifts, and sometimes their ships are passing the night. That's a common problem that I hear a lot of HR leaders and and businesses have. Is that something you've had to try and tackle, would you say, on site?

SPEAKER_01 28:49

Yes, um, for sure. We uh and our engagement results always show a difference between our um shop floor and office staff. Um so uh yeah, it is really difficult. Um I don't I don't think we always get it right. We are trying to communicate more effectively. Um but you're right, it's really easy to send an email to the um uh to the office-based employees. Um we use the sort of team leader briefings, and we've got we have uh monthly managers' meetings where the managers go out and um uh uh uh do a monthly briefing, for example. Um there's still work to do on that, I would say. And in terms of how we we were always quite formal with our communication as well, um and trying to change that. So now like we put out a briefing and we have FAQs underneath it. Um so that's I think that's helped, and trying to just be a bit more personal with our communication. So if if it's more human, I think sometimes people forget that leaders are human. Um we definitely tried to um try to, but uh, yeah, I don't think we've succeeded so far completely. Uh there's always still work to do, and we're looking at trying to sort of digital communications and trying to push out more messages that way.

SPEAKER_00 30:09

That that makes perfect sense, and uh I do. I think that is um it's an issue that I think a lot of cumbers are trying to tackle because it it it it's it's it's definitely again like anything, it's not something we can tackle overnight. I

Getting Leaders Bought Into Change

SPEAKER_00 30:21

think that's something that probably has to come from from the top. And and I I think most things we're talking about here have to come from the top. I think if culture doesn't come from the leaders within the business, it's never going to change. And I think I've seen a lot of examples of that where it might come from middle management, but ultimately if it doesn't come right from the top, it doesn't, um, which can be difficult in organizations which have multiple multiple offices and and you know different cultures within those businesses. And it's it's a difficult what what advice would you have for for leaders, would you say, who are really struggling to get their leadership team on board with any changes in the business, would you say?

SPEAKER_01 31:08

That's a good question. Um, I I I mean, I was I lucky, relatively lucky in the the I I think the sort of the the senior leadership team were sort of on board relatively quickly. I wouldn't necessarily say everybody was driving the change immediately. Um but that that has that's changed significantly sort of over the that five years. I don't I wonder whether for me, showing everybody that you know that I was talking about the insights almost like saying, Do we think I asked the question, do you think the culture is sort of right or we need to do something about it? And the answer was resoundingly, yeah, we need to change it. I thought that, but I wasn't coming in saying, oh, we need to come, we need to change the culture. Um, the difficulty we had was there was no learning platform. We were still making really good quality machines, we were, you know, really efficient, we were a successful business and still are. So there wasn't that real push to say, if we don't change this, you know, we we need to change this to be able to get out of the mess that we're in. Um, but there was a recognition that if we don't change now, that you know the workforce is changing in the future, so we need to do it. Um that was the difficulty, I guess. Um what advice would I give? Trying to get people to realise it themselves is obviously like a so difficult because you I don't uh trying to give people the evidence I find really difficult. And I do struggle with this. I was talking to our senior management team recently that you know, I've been working in the sort of HR and recruitment field now for 20 years. I've gotten read loads of books, done loads of podcasts, spoken to loads of different people. You kind of acquire quite a lot of knowledge. So when someone says, Well, why are we doing this? It's like, well, I can't almost can't explain it because it's like I can't find I remember which bit of the theory, yeah. But all these different things, and you you know, some of them confirm what you've read in other ones and and all the rest of it, so it's all pulls together. Um that's not really a very helpful answer.

SPEAKER_00 33:08

Yeah, but but but but but I think what you're saying there is but ultimately I think you say you said it before that it's it's the justification of it, isn't it? It's the justification of what whatever that reason that is. Is it because the business needs to do X, Y, and Z? Is it because the you know the the failing team on the retention side and people leave? And it's the I guess it's the justifying, like anything, I think it's justifying why something needs to be happening in the first place, but but what's in it for them? Because ultimately it's too easy, isn't it, as leaders to go, well, we must change this because we know I'm getting pressure from the top that you know the group isn't making enough money or or this target isn't being, but actually, why should people on the shop floor care really? You know, what what's like anything, what's in it for them? And I I think that's fair. I think as humans we have to selfishly know what's what's in it for us, otherwise, you know, it's it's very difficult to have a vision to some extent, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 34:00

Yeah, it is. Yeah, I think the the answer, you know, and again, it it it's hard to it's always hard to prove it. I I find it difficult anyway, you know. But if if you have an engaged and committed workforce, if everybody is therefore, you know, 10% more efficient or 5%, whatever, it makes your job as a leader an awful lot easier. Yeah. And when we come to the looking at the coaching, yeah, it might take you a little bit longer in that initial moment when somebody comes to you with a problem instead of just giving them the answer to coach them. But then next time you've built up that that knowledge and that skill so that they don't come and ask you the next time, and you're developing people and um to be able to think for themselves. Um so yeah, whether you can explicitly say we've done this and therefore our productivity has gone up. There are so many other factors that impact our productivity and and all the rest of it, but I think that that's that that's really difficult to do. But that's the logic that but also I almost think, you know, do I do we need to prove it? Surely, you know, having a having a workforce of people who are fulfilled and want to work here is just why wouldn't you want that? It doesn't cost and it doesn't cost anything really well, okay. Leadership development potentially does cost something, but leading people in a different way doesn't cost you anything different in the moment. Does it, you know, but it makes you have to think about it. Um so yeah, it's sort of the I I people are seeing the benefit of doing things differently as well. I think that's one of the the really good things that we again go back to the insights. We found people were um having relationships, really difficult relationships with certain people over and over and over again. Did the insights learnt that they were a different colour energy to them, and then changed their style and immediately literally immediately had a really had a much better relationship with those individuals. So um the proof is there, yeah, in the interactions and the the difference differences that are made, but it's um yeah, whether you uh putting a number on it, I think is the difficult part.

SPEAKER_00 36:07

What's the um the book uh Chimp Paradox? That's a great book, isn't it? Have you read that one before?

SPEAKER_01 36:12

I've read a bit of it.

SPEAKER_00 36:14

It is full on actually, but it's just it it makes you realise why you feel and think a certain way and and how you yeah, it's it's it's fascinating.

Apprenticeships And Growing Your Own

SPEAKER_00 36:24

The um the skills gap is a big problem in manufacturing, um, and will only get worse. Komatsu were well renowned for the apprenticeship scheme, and you know, people work there for a long time, which which is great. Um, my issue is not manufacturing, and I do get it, a lot of people talk about the skills gap, but probably aren't doing much about it. Komatsu obviously are and always have done. Why has that always been important and part of the culture there to make sure that apprenticeships is a priority for them?

SPEAKER_01 36:55

Uh yeah, I mean employee development has been part of our Komatsu way from it was sort of you know the set of principles that were set up when Komatsu was founded, yeah, 100 and whatever years ago. Um, so it's always been a key part of our business. Um, and you know, it makes sense to invest in apprentices and even in I think it was before my time because I didn't I joined after the a lot of COVID had happened. So I think that might have been sort of one of the only years that we didn't actually um bring in a full intake. Um because we do have long service as well, you've kind of always got that pipeline of people who are going to retire. Yeah, because a lot of people do sort of retire from the business rather than resigning earlier, and so it's important to have that um that throughput. But growing your own talent is a lot easier in a way than bringing in somebody else who's um you know learned different ways of doing things and you're trying to then convert them to your your way of doing things. But yeah, that employee development part has always been a core um part of our business, and that is why we do an awful lot of promotion promotions from within. Um so we're recruitment consultants nightmare, but um we uh but we have lots of people who'll move from you know the shop floor to a you know trainee quality position, trainee production engineer position, and then we put them through their uh the relevant training that they need to do. So there are lots of opportunities to move cross-functionally as well, which I think is quite it can be quite rare. Um, you know, you don't need to have had experience in a certain area. Um, so yeah, I definitely think it's uh it's important. Uh and the same, we do the same with graduates, we have at least one a year and generally again they and they rotate through the um through a number of different departments and then end up in a you know a permanent role at the end of it.

SPEAKER_00 38:39

Yeah, and and I think companies, you know, I think you could be forgiven sometimes to think it's a business which is people work for, it's a job for life, and and they're only there because of X, Y, and Z benefits is but no, people just because the the salary or the benefits are good doesn't mean doesn't mean now people will stay. If it's a poor culture, if it's if there's poor management, people will leave. So the fact that you have the retention is is still been very, very good has to be testament to people like yourself who have come in and gone, oh, this is great, this is a site's been over 100 years and retention so low, but we've got to keep moving forward, we've got to keep progressing because unfortunately in this market, we've still seen even recently companies that have been around for 100 years um who have unfortunately not succeeded. And and and it's just unfortunately it means nothing now, which is really, really sad because those companies aren't getting protected like they that they once were. So you have to invest in your people, you know, with time, culture change, with management, with you know, benefits. Now it doesn't have to be you know the biggest benefits, the biggest salary. It's just it's it's understanding people's drives and what move what changes and why they want to come to work. Because ultimately, exactly what you said right at the start, you're driven by people not dreading coming to work, which is it sounds basic, but it isn't, is it? Because it is a it is a problem.

Curiosity Optimism And Next Priorities

SPEAKER_01 40:04

Yeah, it is. Yeah, I I I'm fortunate in that I really love my job and I have done for the vast majority of my career. But there have been a couple of times when you know I haven't been particularly engaged and I wasn't definitely committed to the business at the time, and you know, not my current job, but um, I can remember when I when there was a particular assignments like I had one thing on my to-do list and I didn't manage to get it done. I did other stuff, I don't know what I was doing, but I didn't get that one thing I was meant to do done. And I was like, how? How have I managed it? But when you're feeling sort of really disengaged, it is very it is difficult, and you don't you're not committed to doing the best that you do, you're not curious, you don't care, you don't, you know, you're not necessarily making good judgment. Um sort of going back to those three things from before. So uh yeah, it's definitely it's definitely important um to focus on the people.

SPEAKER_00 40:51

Uh a couple of quick questions, you don't mind. Um obviously manufacturing is is a uh a difficult point right now, it's a it's a tricky market. If you had a magic wand and you could change one thing about the the industry, what would it be?

SPEAKER_01 41:06

Um what would I change about the industry? I don't know. Um I'm not sure. I don't know if I would change anything about the industry in particular. Um I feel like maybe there's a bit like an obvious answer that I'm missing, but I think if I could change if I had a magic wand, what I would do is make make everybody uh curious, committed, and have a have a good judgment. Um that would be my my ideal. Uh yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 41:41

Which is which actually is adding as testament to who you are for that answer because actually a lot of people who are going, well, I'll do this because the you know the manufacturing industry will be better off. But actually, it's it's interesting how driven you you are personally by by people being happier, by people being it's probably because you've done a lot of work on yourself over the years to be progressing and and you know to to read books and to what to listen to podcasts and that obviously it's it's built into you that you want to you get satisfaction from seeing people grow and seeing people have those traits, which is frustrating, isn't it? When you when people in front of you who don't show that, it's a it's like a double-edged sword that'd be fair.

SPEAKER_01 42:22

So that is true. That is true. I mean, you know, I if from an industry point of view, you could talk about you know like prices of um parts and all the rest of it, and but those things, you know, well, they're they're important, but that how much control we have over those, I don't know. But uh like I say, I think though those things will always um exist, yeah. There'll always be actual factors, but the th something that we can control or certainly influence heavily is what's going on inside our organization. What's happening in the industry is a lot harder to um to impact, or you know, even if you had a magic wand and make one thing better, something else would pop up that would make it more difficult. So um, so yeah, I think um yeah, be I think encouraging people to be sort of open-minded and and I I'm also generally an optimist, which I think helps. However, that's clearly not the case for everybody all the time. I think that's sometimes difficult to deal with as well when you know you implement something new or introduce something and you think it's gonna be okay. You expect that might not everyone might not be jumping over hoops with it, but the sort of the negativity that sometimes comes back, and it's those voices that you hear the most sometimes, isn't it? Yeah. Um when you know it's only a few, but they're the ones, they're the only ones you listen to if in your sort of darker times. Um yeah, I'd I'd also make everyone optimistic.

SPEAKER_00 43:37

They're the one to plague it through 100%. And uh um and just finally, what what are you what are you excited about over the next sort of 12 to 18 months and in business? What's um what's happening, which uh you're sort of concentrating on at the moment?

SPEAKER_01 43:50

Um well, continuing my culture change programme is a big one. Um we've got a uh a day or in a couple of few weeks actually, which is uh all the Together, it's what we're calling Thrive Together Day because it's part of our purpose. Um, bringing everybody together is a full day like non-production, um, and we're focusing on safety, well-being, culture, et cetera. So that's a really key thing. Um, and just sort of generally uh like our helping move the business forward. Um that sounds a bit trite, but we're we're a sort of contract manufacturer, so we um manufacture for our head office. Um and but we're not really kind of taking responsibility for our own destiny. Um and that's that's interesting for for me, having just been in HR role, being in a really like senior leadership role as well for the whole business. Um, and that brings with it lots of interesting challenges. Um, so that that definitely for me is something that's new and exciting. Well, not so new, but it's still exciting to do.

SPEAKER_00 44:54

Thank you. Thank you for this because it's been really fascinating. It's um it's been interesting because I'm I'm I'm interested in people and I'm as interested, and I've I've been fascinated by your drivers and why you do what you do and why you know you care about what you care. And it's quite clear you clear about a legacy you leave behind you of people enjoying the job, which I think it's it's it's brilliant because not a lot of people have that sort of mindset. A lot of people have you know, progression for them is is very different. It might be a certain um type of management, or whatever it is. And I think it's been and I think that off recruitment's an interesting one, but for me, good recruiters are are curious, good recruiters are interested in people and care about people, whether that be the candidates or their or their clients. And you've obviously carried that trait through right through to HR because I again I believe really good HR professionals care about the people. I think if it comes from there first, then it's it doesn't come from a transactional hit and number place. That's something where people buy into, and you know, great businesses have great HR teams. It's as simple as that uh for me. It's it's such such an important part of the business. And I think this has been really fascinating because people will look at companies like Kamatu and just think that okay, they've been there for 100 years. People things just must happen, they don't have to work at things, but I think it's been really encouraging for a lot of people who perhaps work for small businesses to go, oh great, Katie's Katie's battling through this as well, and she's come out the other end. Do you know what I mean? Like this isn't something you just you just ever nail. It's it's forever, it's challenging. But actually, I'm really pleased we honed in on that leadership training piece because I am a massive believer in that is the biggest game changer in your business if you create leaders in your business and you don't have to bring them on externally, which I shouldn't say, but I think I honestly think it's the missing trait. People who come through your business, sometimes you do need external voices and different opinions, but people who've worked their way up the business, they're the ones that understand what's right, what's wrong, how can progress. So it was fascinating. I think this will be a nice um episode for people to listen to to go, yeah, we're we're not really doing that, but we've talked about it. Let's let's actually get together and create a school within the within the organization. Uh no, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 47:11

Uh I mean it's um and also, you know, like our culture wasn't absolutely horrific when I started either. You know, I don't want to sort of misrepresent it. It's always you can always do do more. We went after I don't know, a year or so of the leadership development programme, the question was, well, when when are we finished with this? It's like, oh never.

SPEAKER_02 47:29

No, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:30

There's always a new module, there's always sort of something new I could do. And I think keeping that momentum up and keeping that learning going, um, eventually, hopefully, people then you know sort of take it upon themselves to do their own learning and uh um and stuff as well. And I I I do think, you know, we I think you can make people happy at work if you give them, you know, for a moment by giving them coffee, by giving them a nice environment, all these kind of things. I think that those things are they're not unimportant, but like you say, having meaning in your work, feeling like you've done a good job, getting, you know, some recognition or appreciation for it, and knowing that you're valued. I think those are the things that when you leave, you know, the the day, but also the job, you know, if you feel like that's been your career and that's been your your work life, I feel like that's something that's gonna that's gonna stay with you longer than a free cup of coffee.

SPEAKER_00 48:26

Um yeah, free fruit, yeah, exactly. But uh no, thanks, Kate. That was great, really appreciate it. Thank you.

Final Reflections And How To Connect

SPEAKER_00 48:33

Thank you so much for listening or watching this episode of the Manufacturing Leaders podcast. Please just like or subscribe. It really helps grow the show and obviously improve the industry. If you want any more information about Theo James, as I mentioned midway through the episode, please get in touch with me or the team. I would love to talk about how it can help you directly or your business. We are more than just a recruiter, and I know people say that, but it's something I'm incredibly passionate about. We are in business for much more than just a bums-on-seats approach. We want to help people grow, we want to help improve their lives, and ultimately I want to work with businesses and people who share the same values as we do, and that's something I'm incredibly passionate about. So please, if that is you and you are passionate about that dream role or passionate about your people, please get in touch with me or the team. I would absolutely love to talk a bit more detail. Thank you very much. Speak soon.