Connection Beats Control: Surrender As The Family’s Turning Point

The hardest truth for families to hear often becomes the most freeing: you can’t fix your loved one’s addiction—and you don’t have to. We sat down with clinical leader Dr. Brian Samford and admissions director Zack Plyler from The Arbor, alongside interventionist Brian Schultz, to map out a path that replaces control with connection and panic with a plan. If you’ve been acting as the banker and the janitor—funding chaos and cleaning up every mess—this conversation shows how to step back into your real role: parent, partner, sibling.

We unpack why codependency mirrors addiction, how enabling is really feelings‑avoidance, and why surrender is as essential for families as it is for those who use. You’ll hear what healthy boundaries look like in practice, how to shift phone calls from progress‑policing to simple human connection, and why long‑term care matters more than a quick 30‑day stay. We also demystify the mental health vs. addiction debate, explaining how substance use disorder itself is a mental illness and why medicating symptoms without changing systems keeps everyone stuck.

Looking for a real way to evaluate treatment? We share what to look for beyond glossy websites: staff presence versus office huddles, alumni working on campus, peers greeting newcomers by name, and support at 2 a.m. when it counts. Most of all, we return to the heart of lasting change: therapeutic alliance, community, and the kind of spiritual growth that shifts identity from shame to belonging. There is hope, and there is a path—Al‑Anon, ACA, CoDA for families; meetings, mentorship, and service for those seeking sobriety. Everyone has a part, and when each person does theirs, recovery becomes possible and sustainable.

If this resonates, follow the show, share it with someone who needs it, and leave a review to help more families find practical hope. Your next right step might be closer than you think.

Chapters

• 0:00 Purpose Of The Show And Free Family Support
• 1:01 Introductions And Roles At The Table
• 5:16 Families As The Primary Client
• 8:45 Codependency, Enabling, And The Family Playbook
• 15:27 What Surrender Looks Like For Families
• 20:16 Healthy Boundaries During Treatment
• 26:12 Stigma, Mislabeling, And Mental Health Myths
• 33:12 Pain, Spiritual Growth, And Long‑Term Care
• 40:10 Why Connection And Community Beat Isolation
• 46:25 How To Vet A Treatment Center

Transcript

SPEAKER_06: 0:00

Welcome to the Party Records Podcast, hosted by seasoned addiction interventionist Matt Brown. This is a podcast for families or individuals with loved ones who are struggling with addiction or alcoholism. Perhaps they are reluctant to get the help that they need. We are here to educate and entertain you while removing the fear from the conversation. Stick with us, and we will get you through it. Welcome, the original party record, Matt Brown.

SPEAKER_04: 0:48

Hey guys, welcome to another episode of the Party Wreckers Podcast. My name is Matt Brown. I am a drug and alcohol interventionist. For those of you who are tuning in for the first time, um, I've got a a little bit of a different episode today. Uh, I'm actually on location at a treatment program in Texas uh with one of my fellow providers on intervention on call, Brian Schultz. He's here with me. And then uh two of the executives from the treatment program here, and I'll introduce them here in just a moment. Before I jump into this, I want to just remind everybody that five nights a week, if you're a family that has a loved one that's in active addiction to drugs, alcohol, or other behaviors, five nights a week, Sunday through Thursday, we do a free family Zoom call. Uh you can register for that at interventiononcall.com. Uh, there's going to be one or more of eight interventionists from around the country that are on these calls every night to give you guys opportunities to ask questions, really dive into getting some really specific direction on how to handle um the situation in your home with your addicted loved one. And they're free. We'd love to have you, we'd love to be able to help you and and hopefully take away a little bit of the mystery and and the fear around that scary word of of intervention. Um I want to introduce a couple of people and I'll I'll you know I'll talk about you guys for here for just a second, but I I would really love for you guys to introduce yourselves and and give a little bit of background. Um, to my left here, I've got Brian Schultz. And Brian is from Philadelphia, he's one of our providers on Intervention on Call. If you've been on one of the nightly Zoom calls, you'll have met him. Um Brian, good to have you here. Why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself?

SPEAKER_02: 2:37

Sure. Thanks for having me. Um, I was just thinking like when was the last time we actually sat next to each other as opposed to screen to screen, but yeah, it's been a while. Um I am excited for conversations like these because as we were sort of talking about before we got started, we have found a way to speak directly to families without any filter. And I think that whether you're talking about interventions or recovery coaching or whatever the case may be, a lot of times I'll get the question of like who's who's the real client? Is it the person struggling with addiction or is it the family? And I think that, you know, if I had to pick one over the other, I would say that it's the family. Because let's keep in mind that like the person who's struggling is also a part of that family system, right? And so the fact that we have like unique opportunities like this to talk to everybody involved and help everyone understand their role in it. Um I get really pumped for stuff like this. So thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_04: 3:33

Yeah, you bet. Uh sitting across from me, uh the table here is Dr. Brian Sanford. Brian is the is it the CEO or executive chief clinical officer? Chief Clinical Officer for the Arbor here in Texas, in Georgetown, Texas. Brian, would you tell us a little bit about yourself?

SPEAKER_00: 3:48

Uh I'm a Capricorn. I love walks on the beach. Uh uh, I am a marriage and family therapist and licensed chemical dependency counselor. And I have been working with families and individuals suffering from addiction for about 35 years. And I absolutely love it. And the thing that I love the most is working with families. And I love working with families in group settings. Uh, my favorite thing to do is go sit down with a family in their kitchen and drink coffee and try to be helpful and try to help them break out of those dysfunctional patterns that support that addictive behavior.

SPEAKER_04: 4:30

So by the end of this, if any families want to have you come to their house and sit and drink coffee with them, how do they get into it? I'm kidding. I love it. I absolutely love it. Thank you. Thank you for being, you know, and and certainly I've known of you by reputation for a long, long time. I've been, you know, working with different clients throughout the years with the Arbor. Um, but this, this, these last couple of days have been my first time to actually get face to face with you. And it's it's a pleasure to have you.

SPEAKER_00: 4:57

Yeah, it's so it's so interesting because I've heard of you this whole time, and uh to finally spend some time with you is pretty incredible.

SPEAKER_04: 5:05

Well, thank you. And our other guest, we actually have three on the podcast today, is Zach Plyler. Zach is the uh is what is your role here?

SPEAKER_03: 5:12

Director of business development and over the admissions team as well.

SPEAKER_04: 5:16

Well, Zach and I have known each other for years, and it's it's you know, I feel like we're old friends, and it's just nice to have a different kind of conversation with you here and and uh get your take on just you know the state of the industry, working with families. Um, one of the things we wanted to dive into today, actually, Zach, why don't we before I do that, I missed the opportunity. Why don't you all back up and have you talk a little bit about yourself?

SPEAKER_03: 5:40

So uh like Brian, I do enjoy long walks on the beach as well. Um, but you know, kind of the way I got into this is uh I got I got sober myself like many of us in my mid-20s, and that was about 14 years ago or coming up on 14 years. And uh, you know, it's common that we love working with families. You know, for me, it's more around I like being able to offer perspective and solution to somebody that maybe has never had it, right? Where you feel like you're the only person going through what you're going through, and you hear somebody like, oh no, like that's that's what I went through. That's what my family went through. And so um, you know, that that's my favorite thing. I I love admissions. I absolutely love it. I love whenever I'm on the phone with somebody and you hear the tension in their voice and you hear like the fear, and then you say something and you hear it all release. And so, you know, I would I would do this every day. I do it for free. You know, I feel I feel super blessed for for the role that I have within the organization.

SPEAKER_04: 6:39

Well, I'll talk to the owners and let them know they're paying you too much money because I'm willing to do it for free. Yeah. If I won the lottery, I just sit there and and take it take calls and help people all day. Yeah, yeah. Well, and and the interesting thing is, and I'm sure a lot of the families listening have have had this experience. You know, there's a huge difference in talking with somebody when you call a treatment program, talking with somebody who's there to check the boxes. Like, what kind of insurance do you have? You know, and and and and really just kind of go through this script that they have versus talking to somebody who who actually is invested in helping their family. And I'm not saying that the people that that check the boxes don't have a heart to help, but there's a big difference. And and there's there's an investment every time you get on a phone call with a family. I know for us, for for me and Brian, I'm sure it's the same way for you. Like when we get on a phone call with a family or when we get on one of these Zoom calls for me, I I get excited, like you were talking about. Sitting in somebody's living room, having a cup of coffee with them, and you know, let's solve a problem here today. And um I think that there's, you know, there's these call centers around the country where, you know, they're getting 30,000 phone calls a month. And it's like, how can you take care of families that way? Because yeah, you might be able to get their loved one into treatment, but are you taking care of the people that are hurting along the way? And, you know, we're gonna dive a little bit into that today in terms of family work and and how we see families show up, how we we help families. And I hope that if you're a family member of an addicted loved one that's listening today, that you really listen in for what we see as people working on the front lines with families. Hopefully, some of this will resonate with you. Hopefully, we're not stepping on your toes too hard today, because I I, at least, you know, from my point of view, I think there's some things that families need to hear in terms of how they can better support the process. Not only will it create a more stable environment for their loved one to recover in, but also for them to find some peace and some freedom in this process as well.

SPEAKER_02: 8:52

Um I'm interested in what you just touched on. I'm interested in hearing Brian sort of do the thing where he lovingly challenges families. Because so Brian recently showed up to an intervention on call Family Sports Zoom. And and Zach, you highlighted this too. One thing that he does really well is I can see why you may think that, but let me tell you how it really is, which is like not a not an easy line to walk. Because the thing is, is like I actually it's interesting this is coming up now because I I'm prepping for an intervention this weekend, and the mom of the client was like, you know, I just feel bad for you. Like my son's gonna be the most difficult case that you've ever heard of. I hear that all the time. Right. And I was like, first off, when we have some more downtime and things aren't so heavy, like I'll tell you some funny stories that will probably change that perception in your mind. But the reality is like, it's not the addicted individual that's the challenge. Like, I know when I walk into an intervention, there are some things that might happen that I might not exactly know how they're gonna go down, but I know how that person's gonna present. He's gonna be in a ton of pain, he's gonna throw it around with everybody in the room, he's gonna be irrational, might be manic, you know, and and volatile, but like I know what that looks like, how to prepare for it, control the controllables, and let other professionals step in where they need to. The challenging part is trying to get the family to get out of the mindset that they've been in for the past several years. And it's like a it's a real talent of lovingly walking back some of the things that they are so sure of, right? Right and getting them to make changes.

SPEAKER_03: 10:22

Yeah, there's a lot of uh there's a lot of conditioning, right? Like um I think about my own story, and there would be times whenever I would call my mom just just to like check in or say something, and she would answer the phone, she'd be like, What happened?

SPEAKER_05: 10:37

Hello?

SPEAKER_04: 10:39

Did you hear that when you would say?

SPEAKER_03: 10:42

And uh, and you know, you get so caught in that system of feeling like somebody has to, like they have to save you, right? And and I look at it now, it's like I didn't do anything for myself. I mean, my mom once drove all the way from Austin to Denton because I hadn't answered my phone in like 18 hours, right? She climbed through my window, I was passed out, and she climbed through the window of my apartment. And, you know, the darkness of that is that, you know, she was uh convinced that I was gonna die, you know, and and she says that she'd already like given me up to God. And uh, but she was convinced that the reason I wasn't answering was because I was dead. And and she drove four hours and climbed through a window at you know, 60 years old. Um, and I just had her in that cycle. I think about too. Uh, one time I went to treatment and I get in there, and I'm I'm normally a pretty pleasant guy, you know, to most people, uh, but I had like, you know, this mean streak to me. But the people, whenever I was getting done with intake, they were like, your mom was so worried about like whatever you were gonna do here. And I'm like, I'm not a psychopath, you know? Um, but it's just because that's that's what I do is if I if I wanted something from them and they wouldn't give it, I would just get super mean, right? And I would get super angry or rational. Um, and so that's how they would try and prep people about me is like just somebody that's totally unpredictable.

SPEAKER_02: 11:55

So much of when we're talking about the proper way to interact with somebody who's an active addiction, and maybe this is just, you know, because I'm a male, right? And you're a male, right? But I see that it oftentimes will come from mom. It's like when we're talking about the approach, the feedback that I always get from mom is like, yeah, but if we do it like that, this is how he's going to respond. And it's like, okay, well, we need to get you out of the mindset that the appropriate thing to do is based on how your loved one is going to react to it, right?

SPEAKER_04: 12:26

We have a specific playbook that we work from. We don't realize we're doing it, but the playbook is pretty much universal for everybody in addiction. And it's just that the family hasn't picked up on the playbook yet. And and I tell families this all the time, but you know, anytime you're doing an intervention, whenever somebody's come into treatment, there's two people that have to get fired. And that's the banker and the janitor.

SPEAKER_05: 12:49

That's right.

SPEAKER_04: 12:49

Like, we gotta get those people off the board. The minute you step out of those roles and step back into your natural role as a wife, a husband, a mom, a dad, this will get a lot easier. Um, what what are some of the most oh yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00: 13:04

You know, when I I I used to do interventions, and and I'll always say this is the when you go in to do an intervention, you're actually doing an intervention with the family. The clients, we we know how to work with individuals that have addiction issues. The challenge is to get the family on board with what it's gonna take. And really, the big picture to oversimplify what it's gonna take is for the family to get out of the way and let the individual start to take responsibility for their life. That's the hard part. And when I do family program, the thing that I emphasize with families is stop neglecting yourselves and stop neglecting other family members. Your loved one that has the addiction issue has people, and those people will help your loved one. You don't need to do it anymore. And so it's really difficult for families to back out.

SPEAKER_04: 14:03

The way uh the way I've seen it and the way I I will sometimes explain it to families is that you know, codependency and addiction are just two sides of the same coin. And the person who's in active addiction uses substances to try to avoid their feelings. And the codependent does exactly the same thing for exactly the same reason. If I don't enable this person, I'm gonna feel something that I don't want to feel, whether it's guilt, whether it's, you know, I I don't want to be a bad spouse or a bad dad or a bad mom. I'm I'm enabling to avoid the feelings that I'm I'm gonna feel if I don't do this. And the genesis of a lot of those feelings comes from the same place. I'm not good enough. You know, I'm I'm I'm a people pleaser, I'm a perfectionist on a lot of those early childhood programmings that that we get. Um, what for you as as a clinical a clinician, and you know, I don't think I'm not a clinician, I don't I don't think either of you are, but as a clinician, as you work with families, what is the biggest and or most common thread that runs through families that you feel like? I mean, you talked about you know them taking care of themselves, but from a behavioral standpoint, something that families listening can really identify maybe in their own behavior, what are you seeing that can be the biggest impediment of them maybe getting in their own way or getting in the way of the recovery of their loved one?

SPEAKER_00: 15:27

It is the the greatest challenge is it's really surrender. It's just like for the addict, they have to surrender to this idea that they're powerless. And it's the same concept for the family, is they're power, they're truly powerless over this addiction. They've tried everything that they can imagine to control it, and nothing has worked. And so for families to begin the journey of healing within themselves, they have to do the same thing that the addict has to do. They have to surrender to this idea that I can't control this. What I can do is I can start taking better care of myself and start setting better emotional, physical, financial boundaries and stop neglecting. So that's it's it's the same for the addict as for the family. It's the concept of surrender. And families, it's you know, some families get there quicker than others. Some families will do this cycle indefinitely, they'll never surrender. And ultimately what happens is the primary objective of the addiction, the addiction outside of the individual and outside of the family, the ultimate goal of the addiction is to kill the host and everybody in close proximity. And when families and individuals don't get in recovery, that's exactly what happens, is it destroys families.

SPEAKER_04: 16:53

You know, I've never heard anybody describe it that way in terms of it being almost parasitic.

SPEAKER_00: 16:58

Right.

SPEAKER_04: 16:59

Where the the intention is to kill the host. That's right.

SPEAKER_02: 17:03

Right and great metaphor. Before the surrender happens, the families who are stuck and can't seem to surrender, like what does how what type of behavior does that manifest into? Like loved one comes to treatment, family is struggling with surrendering to the process. What does that look like?

SPEAKER_00: 17:17

Oh, it's it's so entertaining. Because they'll call every day. Yeah. Text, call, what are they doing? Hey, listen, I have this idea, you should try this. And you know, where are they gonna go? Yeah, I can't stop. Uh, I don't want to stop the tracking on the phone because what if something happens? Is they can't disengage. And that is expressed in a variety of ways. I have a family right now that I'm working with, and what I've convinced them to do is to call me before they try to engage back into the recovery process with their loved one. Because I can block that and say, why don't you go for a walk? Your individual has people that are supporting his or her recovery. Your your loved one doesn't need you for this. They need you to take care of yourself, be a parent. When you have a phone call, talk about the the current movie that you saw, or talk about the weather. Get out of the recovery business with your loved one.

SPEAKER_02: 18:25

That was the best part of the correspondence that I had with my family when I was in treatment, was when we would have our you know, it started off as weekly phone calls. And specifically, probably because I was somebody who went to treatment through intervention, I was so slow to my own process of surrender that like when we would get on those calls, I would be so full of anxiety about expecting them to check in on me and my progress, and like, hey, have you called yourself an addict yet in a meeting? Like, hey, have you are you working the steps? Do you have a sponsor? And uh and I wasn't there for a really long time. Really, like the internal motivation for me didn't even begin to flip on until the second month of treatment. And because they were engaged in a solid family program, our conversations weren't going that way. It was Brian's doing his thing, hey, here's what your sister's up to this week. Right, you know, like dad's gone with my boyfriend. I have normal conversations, which then made it safe to eventually re-engage at my own when I felt comfortable. Then it's like, hey, I had this kind of profound sort of day yesterday, or I gained some insight into myself in a way that because they weren't waiting with pins and needles on baited breath, like, did you get it yet? Did you get it yet? Did you get it yet?

SPEAKER_03: 19:44

You know, I had an experience early on. Uh I was probably like six or seven months sober. And um, my my parents never did a lot of like what what meetings are you going to or anything like that. But uh um anybody in recovery is will know, like, especially in those early days, sometimes there's just this day where the thought of alcohol is in your mind, right? It's not like you're sitting there being like, Oh, I'm gonna drink today. I really want to drink. And uh, I was over at my mom's house and I'm sitting there and I just said, you know, I've had a few thoughts in drinking today. Uh, and I just saw like it pour over her face. And it just kind of hit me on like to me, that was like normal, right? Like I knew I wasn't gonna drink. I was just like, I'm having one of these days. I talked to my sponsor about it, but to her, it was like terrifying. And so that's like that was one experience that I had where I was just like, okay, like there's certain things that I talk to some to people in recovery about, and there's certain things, you know, that I just let go uh with my with my family. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 20:45

And with my and with my dad, um I didn't really talk about, he had really good boundaries. And uh, we did not talk about my recovery until I was about 20 years sober.

unknown: 20:58

Wow.

SPEAKER_00: 20:58

And uh we would talk about normal things, sports, movies, how other families members are doing. And when I was about 20 years sober, I started sharing some of the details with him about my recovery. And and it really uh was shocking to him and surprising some of the things that I told him. And I really needed the time and I needed to work through those things so I could share those things from a perspective of experience, strength, and hope. Because if you know, uh a lot of people will just go and dump with their families, and that's not fair, that's exactly what you're talking about because they don't know what to do with it. And a lot of times there's an ulterior motive when we're doing that. Yeah, we've got some angle. Yeah, and if you give me$20, never happen again.

SPEAKER_04: 21:49

I remember a conversation I had with my dad where you know I had been sober for 90 days. I had been incommunicado with them for a couple of years at this point. It was post-intervention for me. I was angry, I didn't speak to them, I hadn't gotten sober yet, and I ended up living in my car. And I ended up, you know, as a result of the pain that life naturally brought my way, I ended up getting motivated to get sober or started going to meetings, met a woman who owned a treatment center. She gave me a job at 30 Days Sober. I didn't tell my family any of this until I had 90 days sober because I didn't want to get their hopes up. And I was also really ashamed. Like I didn't want to give them the satisfaction of saying, you know, you guys were right. I needed help. But by the time I had 90 days sober, I'm sitting with my dad, and I said, you know, I just want you to know that I've I've been going to AA and I'm sober now. And he's like, wait a minute. You're an alcoholic? And it was almost like I told my dad I was a serial killer. Right. You know, like there was a there's a stigma.

SPEAKER_02: 22:53

I don't understand what you're saying.

SPEAKER_04: 22:54

Like, do you remember when I was living in your home and you told me that either I had to go to treatment or I had to to leave? He's like, Yeah, I remember that. I didn't think you were an alcoholic, though. And and and it and I think so many times w and I think that there's still it's it's not the stigma's not as strong as it used to be. But I think there's this tendency with families, and I don't know if you guys are seeing it on your end, but when I'm on the phone with a family, a lot of them are wanting to make it about a mental health problem.

SPEAKER_03: 23:21

Yes.

SPEAKER_04: 23:21

Well, he's got ADHD, or they've got bipolar, or they're depressed, or they're anxious. And if we could just treat that, yeah, this this this addiction thing, this this this, you know, the meth use or the you know, the marijuana smoking or whatever, it'll it'll take care of itself. Yeah. And I've always, you know, and until recently, I wonder like why why is that? Why is do they want to make it a mental health issue? And I think number one is is the stigma that surrounds addiction. But I also think that if it's a mental health issue, a doctor's gonna take care of it and I don't have to change as a family member.

SPEAKER_05: 23:54

Right.

SPEAKER_04: 23:55

But if it's addiction, I might be a part of this and I don't want to have to have any any skin in the game here.

SPEAKER_00: 24:01

That's right. And it, you know, if it's a mental health problem, there's a pill, you just give them a pill and everything's okay.

SPEAKER_05: 24:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 24:07

And I I talk a lot about this in family program, is you know, maybe it's a mental illness problem. And I tell families they're all mentally ill. Yeah. There's nobody here in treatment that's not mentally ill. And the substance use disorder in and of itself is a mental illness. And so you're exactly right. And there's a lot of effort that's gonna have to be put in place for recovery to happen on behalf of the family and the individual. And a pill's not gonna fix it.

SPEAKER_03: 24:35

Well, you know, the truth is that um addiction is baffling, right? Like you look at it from an outside perspective, and it's somebody that you know them since they were since they were little, or you know, you know them on a very real level. And I think that it is you see them straying so far away from like what you know them to be or what they know themselves to be, that my observation has always been like people want to figure out a reason. Like, there's no way that you know, Brian would be this way, or Zach would be this way. It has to be that this is going on, and you know, to the point where like sometimes people think their their children are like, you know, schizophrenic or stuff like that. And it's like almost like they would prefer if we would confirm that for them. And I'm like, hey, like if somebody's like an addict, like there's a solution and they can get over that and have a really good life, you know. Some of these other things you're talking about are very chronic and problematic issues, you know? And it's just like there's the stigma, stigma of it, but then there's also like you just want a reason. Like, why, why is he or why is she the way that they are? Yeah, and uh yeah, I mean, we think we were talking about last night at dinner. That's one of the common most common things we see on the phones is like it has to be this. Do you treat this? And you know, you hear and you're like, that's just there's somebody with substance disorder, you know?

SPEAKER_00: 25:56

And in referring back to what you said earlier, is you were talking about the case where there was this sense of uniqueness. And I get a lot of families, well, you don't you don't know my son or you don't know my daughter. And uh, and sometimes I say this, I I try to be sensitive to who I'm talking to, but sometimes I say this is I've seen a thousand of your sons.

SPEAKER_01: 26:18

I use that line too. Which is you gotta be careful about it.

SPEAKER_02: 26:25

Right. I don't usually follow it up with like, look, yes, your son is a unique person, and yes, he did he is an individual. And I don't mean to say that he's just some like sort of statistic, but the experience that you're having with him and what's going on with him internally is exactly like every other person that I ever speak to in this capacity. And I think that like certainly all the things that we touched on around like why it's so difficult to move them away from oh, this is a baseline mental health issue, all of that's true. And I think the other thing is that there's a fundamental lack of understanding about how addiction affects someone in the moments when they're not currently under the influence of drugs, right? Like I was developing myself to the point where I only utilized cocaine, amphetamines, marijuana, alcohol as solutions to regulate my, you know, behaviors, thoughts, feelings. And so every time I wasn't on that, I presented as crazy. You know what I mean? And they're like, well, he's he's nuts, right? Well, yeah, but that doesn't mean that this isn't a direct result of my addiction simply because I'm not currently high right now, right?

SPEAKER_00: 27:40

They're doing all sorts of things. And the the bottom line is is that the uh compulsive use of substances is just self-medication. You're medicating emotional dysregulation, you're medicating dysfunctional thinking. It's it's all the substance use is a just a form of medicating. And you have to address the issues that are driving that. I mean, that's and that's what we all have to do as part of our recovery journey is to address that those thoughts that I have that I'm a terrible person, I'm never gonna amount to anything, that depression, that guilt, that shame. Yeah, those are the common things that most of us experience, and you know, that we're not unique. There's many, many people that have the same experiences, and there is a solution. And the solution's not easy, but there is a solution.

SPEAKER_04: 28:36

So many families want to get caught up in the story. They want to get caught up in the details, and that's why it's different for my kid or my husband or my wife, because the details are so specific and so unique. And and when we can get past the details, the four of us sitting here, the details of of the stories that led to our addictions are probably very, very different from one another. But all of us know what it's like to feel sad and lonely and scared and angry and just desperate. Yeah. And and in in those moments, the details don't matter.

SPEAKER_05: 29:11

Right.

SPEAKER_04: 29:12

Because you know how I feel. And that's what matters. And so when you get a loved one into a treatment program and you want to dive deep into the story, and you want to talk to the, you know, a guy like Zach when or or a guy like Brian when you're, you know, talking about getting somebody into treatment or or doing an intervention, we want to hear the story because it will help us better connect with your loved one to be able to help them understand, hey, but I know how you feel. And and and that's the critical thing because I remember in that first meeting that I ever went to, the amount of shame that I felt and and that, you know, when I, for the very first time in my life, I said, My name's Matt, and I'm an alcoholic. And I just started to cry for for what I could see was no reason. Like, why am I crying right now? And and to to think that when I Picked my head up and I looked around, you know, the the room. I thought I was just gonna see disgusted looks on everybody's face. And that's not what I saw. I saw people who understood me. And and they they were there was compassion and there was understanding and there was just this sense of of empathy. And and that's what I needed in that moment. I didn't need somebody to tell me, okay, but here's how you fix this. When they put their arms around me and they said, Hey man, I'm glad you're here.

SPEAKER_00: 30:30

Yeah, it's gonna be okay.

SPEAKER_04: 30:31

I hope you'll come back tomorrow.

unknown: 30:32

Right.

SPEAKER_04: 30:33

Like that for me, I don't remember anything that anybody said in that meeting, but I remember they gave me a hug, they told me I was glad they were that I they were glad I was there, and they asked me to come back. And and that's all I needed in that moment. And I think for so many of us, we just need to feel like we belong somewhere where we're not burning it down. And I'm oversimplifying this, and I'd love to hear your guys' feedback on this, but I think a good treatment center really has two jobs to create an environment where somebody can have a spiritual experience and to create a member of a lifetime, a lifelong recovery process, whether it's a you know AA, NA, you know, whatever fellowship you're gonna belong to. But if you can accomplish those two things while somebody's in your care, you're setting them up for success down the line. Now, spiritual experience, in my estimation, is not a religious experience, it's an experience that changes the way I see myself and the way that I fit into the world.

SPEAKER_00: 31:32

And that you see the world and you see other people in it. Yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_04: 31:36

What are your thoughts on like as you guys bring people into your program, if you could just boil it down to just its barest essence, what are you hoping will happen for that person?

SPEAKER_00: 31:48

Well, there I do this whole group, it's the circle of pain. It's what's going on with this individual is they have accumulated so much pain in their life that they're desperately trying to cover it up with something. And a big part of treatment is to start identifying what those sources of pain are. Because if you don't identify those and start working to relieve some of that, the individual will not stay sober because they're in too much pain. And so treatment that's a big part, is is to start digging into that and and start the journey. Because for most people, it's a long journey to really address all that internal pain that we're carrying. And the to reference the spirituality piece is, you know, they may or may not have a spiritual experience while they're in treatment, but to set the stage for that to happen, because I ultimately believe that, and and I can apply this to my own recovery, is you know, I did a lot of therapy and I did a lot of counseling, and all of those things helped. But the thing that helped me the most was my connection with a higher power, the spirituality aspect. That's what really helped move me into a whole different realm in life. Now, I had that when I was 15 years sober. So some people have it week two in treatment. It happens when it happens. And what we try to do here is to set the stage for that. And the other big component is what you referenced also, is to get them to begin to assimilate into a recovery lifestyle, recovery process. Because for me personally, I'm still in that. And people that, if you talk to people that have long-term sobriety, is that's what they'll tell you is they're consistent with their recovery program. And we're trying to help individuals start to create their recovery program that they're gonna participate in the rest of their lives that add significant meaning to their life. You know, a lot of people when they start out, they think, oh my God, am I to have am I gonna have to go to those meetings for the rest of my life? Am I gonna have to do all this? But at some point it turns into I love going to meetings. I get to go to those meetings, I love working with people that are trying to get sober. I absolutely love it. And it enriches my life, and hopefully I'm able to help other people.

SPEAKER_02: 34:21

Which is why when we talk about the need for long-term care, I think that might help families better conceptualize why that is. Is how am I supposed to know that it ends up like that until I've done it long enough to see the fruits of my labor? You know what I mean? Because for a very long time it was I have to go to a meeting, I have to call my sponsor, I have to. And it wasn't until I actually experienced the real profound relief from doing that over and over and over again, and began to heal the inner parts of me that I didn't even know were broken until going through that process process, and that never stops, right? Exactly. And then, so like if you're trying to you always say this, it's like, how do you explain salt to somebody who's never tasted salt? And I think that's like that, that to me, I see as the biggest challenge for you guys is to convey how that happens to somebody who has never experienced that.

SPEAKER_00: 35:19

Well, you know, a lot of people in parents, families, clients, they come here and you hear this, I want to do 30 days. And what that statement says to me is you don't understand what this is at all. Right.

SPEAKER_04: 35:32

I want to stay in control, right? Is really what they're saying.

SPEAKER_00: 35:35

It's it's because if you truly, this is a chronic, it's it's taking a person a lifetime to develop it. And it's gonna take a long period of time to just stabilize the person. And then they're gonna have to continue in some support mechanism probably the rest of their life.

SPEAKER_02: 35:53

And they don't if that statement alone is recognizing that the motivation of going to treatment is to get to a place where I can abstain from using drugs, right? I think that if I do a bare minimum of 30 days, I'll be in a place where I can abstain from using drugs, but it ignores the idea of actually if you really, really dig in and engage in this process, you can end up a way happier, healthier, well-adjusted person than you were before you needed the drugs to solve that problem for you.

SPEAKER_03: 36:26

Right. Yeah, your brain can't even really comprehend talk therapy in the first 30 days, right? With everything that is going through, especially for an alcoholic. And, you know, the thing that I am uh that I'm biggest on is about connection, you know, and and Brian is very educated, but one thing that I've always liked about a style is it's very common sense and solution-oriented, right? And and on the admissions side, sometimes you'll get people and they are just very focused on the different acronyms of therapy that can be provided, right? Like the education of everybody. And I read something uh a couple years ago. And in the do you guys know what the number one factor in a successful like therapy relationship is between a clinician and a client? Yeah, trust and employee, therapeutic alliance, therapeutic alliance, right? More than more than any other type of therapy or anything like that. If you just have somebody that you connect with, you're it's gonna be way more successful than any than anything else. That's the number one barometer of success with a therapist. And and you know, we're very intentional here around just the way that we build community, you know, and and I've always liked that um people we get the calls all the time, like, how much is it for me to buy my own room? And it's just like, hey, there is no cost for that. Like, we don't do that, you know, and and part of that is because of isolation, right? Like uh a couple of years ago when they said went to treatment and he bought like an entire floor, right? And you know, I remember thinking, I'm like, man, like that's that's not gonna help him get well, you know, because very much uh addiction wants to isolate you, wants to separate you. And you know, we don't let people buy entitlement. And the things that we do for for grown for grown adults, right, to to just do things together outside, right? Play basketball, go down to the river, play disc golf, just have a conversation. Um, that builds some really deep relationships. And, you know, anybody who's in long-term recovery knows that uh you have to have your your your people, right? Like if you have a therapist that's just gonna knock on their door and they they put you back together and then you leave and you fall apart again. That's not that's never gonna work. And so, you know, like yes, like we we treat our clients and we do everything, but we also uh try and get them back to each other a lot, too, because there is a time whenever this runs out and you have to have that system if it's going to be long term.

SPEAKER_00: 38:51

Well, and I I want to comment on something Zach said. It's it's you know, we talk a lot about uh what is the opposite end of the continuum from addiction? It's connection. People that can connect in a healthy way don't have to use alcohol and drugs to navigate life. And don't want to. And don't want to. Yeah. Because they they they're fulfilled with the connection. And Matt, you talked about in the beginning of this that you didn't remember anything that was said in treatment. I don't either. I don't remember anything, I don't remember any counseling groups, nothing. What I do remember is that counselor that I had, I couldn't get over the fact that this guy he didn't know me, but he cared about me. And that's what meant the world to me. Yeah. And it came from a place that was non-judgmental. He just wanted to help me. And that's the reason I decided to do what I do now, is because of that guy. And it's so it's about the connection, it's about loving the person that's in front of you.

unknown: 39:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 39:52

Whenever I'm touring a treatment program, and and I hope the families listening, you know, if you ever get a chance to go and see the treatment center that you're looking at before your loved one goes there, the one thing that I look for is not, you know, how many, you know, diplomas the the clinical staff have on the wall or you know, when when we walk by the tech office, are there people in there? Is it full of people or are they out with clients? And and those are the people that your clients are gonna interact with more than any other person on that staff. And so if the the tech office, the recovery tech office, the support staff office is full of people, they're not out there with the clients. And and you know, I'm always looking for things like that. And so those are the people that your loved ones are gonna connect with more than anybody else at that treatment program. And if they're all hanging out with each other in the tech office, they're not connecting with the clients. And, you know, when they drive them to meetings, when they're having meals, like when they're doing just the the disc golf and they're out there doing things, you know, playing basketball. Are these people involved with them? Are they connecting with them, or are they just waiting until they got to put them in the van and take them to a meeting? You know, it's there there are little things like that along the way that can really make or break, I think, a client's treatment. Because at two o'clock in the morning when all the clinical staff has gone home and somebody wants to walk out of treatment because they're they're thirsty, who's gonna be there to talk to them?

SPEAKER_02: 41:19

Yeah, that's a really it's not gonna be a clinician. That's a really interesting area of exploration is like, what are the things that you would only know to look for in a treatment center having only after you've gone through an experience? That's a really good one. I always look for uh I take a look at the text and I want to know how many of them are uh how many alumni are working in the program because now have have progressed to the fact where they wanted to stick around because they had the experience of, you know what, I can recognize like the people here were operating in a meaningful way where they were generally invested in my wellness and they wanted to stick around and get a job. Like if you got a program, you got a bunch of alumni who are you know stable and sober and long term and working for your program. That's one of the things that like you don't see that listed on a website, you know what I mean. You can't list that like trauma-informed care or individualized care, but there's certain things that you pick up on only having after having had the experience of the city.

SPEAKER_03: 42:18

Well, then do you see the the clients doing as well, right? Like um I can always tell like if we have like a younger group or a more senior group in the community by whenever I'm touring a family, how many people like want to come up and introduce themselves, right? Because like the newer people, they're still kind of trapped in their self and they're like, you know, not not really thinking about that. But the people who have who have like had an experience, they're coming up and they're like, hey, what's your name? Are you gonna get anything about coming here? And uh about a year ago, we had somebody that decided to come here, and and the feedback on the decision was he's like, you know, I toured a couple other places, and this was like the first place where everybody wasn't in their own world. Like people came up and actually wanted to know my name. And you know, whenever he was leaving, they're like, All right, we'll see you Monday. Uh you know, and it's so you know, it's not always like that, right? Um, people are in their own process, but you know, I uh I tell people every time I'm talking to them on the phone or my team, we always tell them, like, hey, no matter what you choose, if you're in this area, like go look at every place. Everybody has a good website, everybody's website says all the things that it needs to say, but get an actual feel for the people that work there because you know the staff is is what is what makes it essentially.

SPEAKER_04: 43:31

I was touring a treatment program down in Utah one time, and I was there and they they'd asked me to to share my story at the the evening meeting. And so I thought, oh yeah, I'd love to. So before I go in there, the the evening tech comes up to me, she pulls me aside and she says, Hey, I just need to talk to you for a minute. I said, Sure, what's going on? She's like, when you get up there, I need you to understand something. We don't tell war stories here. Like, this is this is how I I need you to do this. And and you know, we don't war story, we don't tell, we don't, we don't, you know, um embellish, you know, we don't we don't want to make addiction sound attractive here. So I want you to to explain to them what it was like for you, but I really need for you to make sure you're talking about how it got better for you and what you're doing now to maintain your recovery. And I was just Cheyenne, if you're if you ever hear this, I just want you to know I remember your name, I remember that conversation. Like she lined me out and she was protecting those clients. Yeah. And and I just had so much respect for her when she did that because of just the responsibility that she felt for making sure that they left that meeting in a better place than when they walked in. And and she was just fearless in the way, like she didn't know me, she didn't know who I was and didn't care. Like, those are my people. I'm I'm taking care of my people.

SPEAKER_01: 44:49

Yeah, that's cool.

SPEAKER_04: 44:50

Yeah. That's really cool. Well, as we're wrapping up here today, guys, like if there's one message that you feel like you haven't gotten across to families today, what what do you want families to take away from the conversation they've been a part of listening to us have today?

SPEAKER_00: 45:06

The the the thing that and this is what I start out with when I do family program is I tell there is people get sober and stay sober all the time. There is a solution to this. And so I want to just relay that hope that in families heal, clients heal, and you can and they have a completely different life. And so there is a lot of hope in this. You know, the early part's gonna be rough, and it's gonna require a lot of effort and a lot of work and tears and etc. But it does get a lot better if everybody involved will do their part. And and I also tell clients this is uh, you know, a lot of times clients hear statistics. There'll be a counselor, somebody comes in the room and says, only a certain percentage of y'all are gonna stay sober, which I absolutely hate when people do that. And what I do is I walk into a room full of clients and I say, everybody in this room can stay sober if they're willing to do the work that's required. It's not rocket science, there is a solution.

SPEAKER_03: 46:19

So Brian, Zach, any last words? Um I love what I love what Brian said, you know. Um the only thing that that I would say is that uh, like, yes, we believe very much that addiction is a disease, right? And uh a trap is believing that somebody always has to be sick and treating them like they're always gonna be sick, because if you do that, then they can never truly get well. And so um, you know, that's that's a big part. Even with my friends that have struggled with addiction, whenever they try and get like the pity of like, oh, I'm an addict, I'm sick. I'm like, hey, bud, like there's a solution to this, and you're making a decision here, you know. And so that's the only thing I see come up with families is like they just feel like they have to they that so and so's sick, and therefore, like they have to help them and always help them, and it's like let them find their way. I'm gonna I'm gonna take that.

SPEAKER_02: 47:15

Um, I would say that um if you're a family member who has a loved one who struggles with addiction, the bad news is you can't fix them, and the good news is you can't fix them, meaning that yeah, you don't have to. It's not your job, right? And your role is to allow them to be face to face with the appropriate resources to utilize, not interrupt the process and allow them to have the experience that they they need to have. And if you really boil it, like that's freeing. This is not your job to handle. And if you try to insert yourself in the process more than is appropriate, the only thing that you can do is sabotage it. The only thing that you can do is to halt their progress. So, good news, you don't have to do that anymore. You get to go work on yourself and um be mom and dad, be sister, be brother, you know. You don't have to be the janitor and the counselor, the probation officer. God, what a fruit there's so much freedom in that. Once you realize that, like, it's not only are you not supposed to, you can't. So stop trying.

SPEAKER_04: 48:27

And if you're a family member listening to this and you're wondering, like, okay, so how do I do that? I agree with everything that that guy just said. Well, what how do I do it? The best way to support your loved one in recovery is to get into recovery yourself. Get into Al-Anon, get into Dakota, adult adult children of alcoholics and dysfunctional families. Uh there's a number of different recovery groups, specifically for loved ones of alcoholics and addicts, or if you grew up in a dysfunctional home, or if you grew up the child of an alcoholic, I I'm a big part of ACA myself, and I I can't endorse it enough. I not that they need my endorsement, but I think it it's it's one of the lesser-known recovery groups that are out there that I just have found so much freedom in for myself. Um, if you're struggling with your own recovery, if if maybe you know you're looking at your child and go, you know, well, I drink too. Like, how am I gonna ask them to do something if I'm not willing to do it? Be fearless. Like the water is great. Jump on in. Whether you're a family member of an alcoholic, whether you're struggling yourself, like the sooner you jump into the pool with us, the better things are gonna be. Um, and and the quicker you'll find your own solution and your own freedom, regardless of whether your loved one gets sober or not. Thank you guys for listening today. If you want to get in touch with some folks at The Arbor, uh, the website is thearbor.com. And uh just for clarification, you know, they're not paying us anything to say that. I just I I believe in the work that they're doing, and I wanted to make sure that the that they had an opportunity to to have some input on this podcast today while we're out here. Um Brian Schultz, who's sitting next to me here, is one of the most talented interventionists in the country, I believe, and I and I mean that sincerely. Um if if you need an interventionist, I would not hesitate to pick up the phone and and call Brian. If you want to get a little bit more exposure to different interventionists from around the country, again, you can join us five nights a week at Intervention on Call for a free Zoom meeting where we can give you some support and you can get to understand you know which of us may be the better fit for you and your family. Um but thank you for listening, and we hope to hear hope you'll hear us on a future episode.

SPEAKER_06: 50:42

Thanks again for listening to the Party Records. If you liked what you heard, please leave us a rating and a review. This helps us get the word out to more people. To learn more or to ask us a question we can answer in a future episode, please visit us at partyrecords.com. And remember, don't enable addiction ever.