Your Kid Called From Jail; Your Wallet Doesn’t Have To

The call comes from jail and your heart drops. Do you race to post bond, or use the moment to steer your loved one toward real help? We walk through a practical, compassionate playbook for families facing addiction: how to turn crisis into leverage, set boundaries that actually protect your home, and keep your cool when those lines get tested.

We start with the reality check most families need: jail isn’t prison, and a short stay can be safer than the street. Instead of panic, build a plan. Engage an attorney with a clear goal—release only to licensed treatment, door-to-door by a professional escort, and a court order requiring completion defined by the program. If your local system tends to “catch and release,” move fast with same-day logistics. If not, let them sit. That space can motivate change more than a hurried bailout ever will.

From there, we unpack the difference between ultimatums and boundaries. Ultimatums try to control someone else. Boundaries protect you. You’ll hear simple, enforceable examples: no using in the home, no secrets or cover stories, no funding phones or cars, doors locked by a set time, and clear conditions for family gatherings—especially during the holidays. When violations happen, skip the blowups. Calm, predictable consequences rebuild your credibility and create the steady pressure that nudges change.

Stories, scripts, and court strategies make this guide concrete, and the holiday segment helps you hold the line without losing connection. If you’re ready to replace dread with a plan, this conversation will help you act with clarity and heart.

If this helped, subscribe, share with someone who needs it, and leave a quick review so more families can find support. For live guidance, join our free nightly Zoom or book a session at interventiononcall.com.

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome And Mission Of The Show
• 1:15 What Intervention On Call Provides
• 2:42 Meet Sam Davis And Shared History
• 5:24 Today’s Three Big Questions
• 6:35 Loved One In Jail: First Reactions
• 9:10 Leverage Jail Without Panic
• 12:20 Attorneys, Bond, And Court Strategy
• 16:40 Release Risks And Moving Fast
• 20:02 Let Them Marinate Before Bond
• 23:10 Calm Planning And Call Limits
• 26:05 Safety Reality Of Jail vs Fear
• 27:55 Defining Real Boundaries
• 31:20 Boundaries vs Ultimatums
• 34:40 Consequences Without Blowups
• 38:00 Credibility And Follow Through
• 41:00 Practical Home Boundaries

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:00

Welcome to the Party Wreckers Podcast, hosted by Steven Addiction Interventionist, Matt Brown. This is a podcast for families or individuals with loved ones who are struggling with addiction or alcoholism. Perhaps they are reluctant to get the help that they need. We are here to educate and entertain you while removing the fear from the conversation. Stick with them, and we will get you through it. Welcome to the original party record, Matt Brown.

SPEAKER_04: 0:51

Welcome back, everyone, to another episode of the Party Wreckers Podcast. This episode is brought to you by InterventionOnCall.com. I'm one of the providers at Intervention on Call. I'm here today with another of the providers and the founder of Intervention on Call, one of the original Party Wreckers, Sam Davis. And we'll get into the interview here in just a moment, but I wanted to just talk for a minute for those of you who are first-time listeners. Intervention on Call is a platform where interventionists come and provide hourly coaching for families in crisis. Rather than look at a conversation with an interventionist as a preparation for a personal intervention where someone will come into your living room and facilitate a professionally led intervention. At Intervention on Call, we're of the belief that not every family needs that. And not every family can afford that. And so what we do is we coach you on how to do your own interventions and really give you strategies and language and help you construct proper boundaries and learn how to enforce those boundaries so that you can take those conversations with your loved ones and make them much more productive and much more meaningful and loving. If you want to join us five nights a week, we offer a free family Zoom call where for an hour at a time we are on with sometimes a hundred or more families from around the country or around the world even, where families are coming in and they're asking questions and they're getting real-time advice from interventionists who are there to volunteer their time and help families on a nightly basis. So join us for a uh a nightly Zoom call or book a session with one of our eight providers at interventiononcall.com. So, like I said, my guest today is Sam Davis. Uh Sam is an old friend. We've known each other for what, sixteen years? And uh I originally met Sam when he was a client at a treatment center that I had just been employed by. And one of the requirements to work at this treatment center was to experience what the clients experienced for a week. And so I moved into Sam's room. He was my buddy for the week and he was responsible for me. He showed me around and took me to groups and made sure that I got to where I needed to be and had the experience that uh that clients have. And every night we got a chance to to chat as we were getting ready for bed and and just kind of laying there in bed, falling asleep. We had a chance to chat and get to know each other. And then later on we we worked at a different treatment center together and uh have just been friends ever since. And I'm glad to be here with you today, Sam.

SPEAKER_02: 3:24

You're my intervention mentor, man. You know, I was trained by some other people, but you're my mentor.

SPEAKER_04: 3:29

Yeah, we worked together very closely in the early days of of your career, and you know, certainly 16 years ago, I'd only been at it for a little while, but um it was fun coming up through the ranks with you. It's it's difficult for me now to think that we're the old guard. It is, isn't it? I mean, I know I'm old and I know you're old. But when you look around at at who's out there now, yeah, um, we're the dinosaurs.

SPEAKER_03: 3:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 3:52

You know, we've been around a while. I mean, there's people that have been doing it longer than us, and there's people I'm sure that are better at it than us. Um, you know, as f people ask me all the time, like, what do you do differently from other interventionists? I don't.

SPEAKER_02: 4:04

Yeah, really.

SPEAKER_04: 4:05

You know, we have our own little styles and nuances. It's like asking a doctor, what do you do doctor, you know, as a doctor different from other doctors? Right. You know, they all they all have very similar training. It's just that I love doing it.

SPEAKER_03: 4:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 4:17

You know, I believe that guys like you and me, this is what we were put on this earth to do.

SPEAKER_02: 4:21

And uh I have a job that I'm excited to get out of bed for every day. Most days. Me too. Most days. Yeah. You know, Matt, thanks for having me on here today, too. And I miss this. You and I used to do the podcast, audio podcast. It's nice to be in the same room doing it. Yeah. Yeah. We used to do it from across the country, but today I get to be in Virginia with you. And I never had the right equipment. I always had, you know, the earbuds with the cord and my phone, and it was this was just would ruin your audio. And but man, I miss us doing this. And I'd love to do more about it. And we're like brothers. I mean, we we we'll we'll butt heads and we'll make up and we'll but man, like I wouldn't imagine being on this journey the last 16 years without you. Trevor Burrus, Jr. Likewise. You know, seriously. I mean, it's I've gained a wealth of knowledge. I'm a better interventionist for for because of you. And I d I just want to thank you. And I I've stolen a lot of your a lot of your phrases and and and and the the way you communicate. And I'm just I'm very grateful for you. And I'm glad to be here today. Good. I'm glad you're here too.

SPEAKER_04: 5:24

You know, what to what I wanted today's episode to be about, you know, at Intervention on Call, when families register Oop bumping my mic here. When families register for the Zoom sessions, they have an opportunity to submit some questions ahead of time so that we can answer some questions. Usually we'll take the first half of the meetings and answer some of the pre-submitted questions. And then we'll take live questions for the back half of the meeting. And there were three questions that I think I see a fair amount that I wanted to address with you today. The first question is, what do I do when my loved one goes to jail? You know, we had a couple of questions recently. Hey, I've got a son or I've got a daughter who's in jail right now, what do I do? Um the second question is, how do I create boundaries with my loved one? And the third question is, what do I do when those boundaries get violated? So let's take them one at a time. How how many times over the last, I don't know, decade and a half have you I mean, obviously I'm not asking for a specific number, but it's it's not uncommon for us to deal with families who have loved ones in jail. What do you see the initial reaction being from parents when their son or their daughter, or even if it's a husband or a wife, ends up in jail for a DUI or possession or you know, possession with intent? What do you see the the initial reaction being from families?

SPEAKER_02: 6:48

That their life is over, their loved ones' life is over, and they're destroyed any opportunity for uh fruitful career or life of abundance thereafter. And they're they're in a lot of shame that their loved ones in jail. And um which we get to look at it from a different point of view is a hell of an opportunity. Absolutely. Because you and I have had well, I've had experience. I have to do that. I both have had experiences. I've been to jail. Yep. You know, I had you know, when I I mean I live a pretty comfortable life these days. You know, I have friends, uh I'm I'm respected in the community, I think. And I went to jail. I did all I was looking at five to twenty years. You know, so we have the experience and also the experience of working with uh you know hundreds of others that have been in that same situation. And it's a hell of an opportunity for someone to get well. You've got leverage, you've got a captive audience and you've got we call it with Tony Messboggers there, rest in peace. You know, you got a captive audience and you got them marinating. Yeah. Let them marinate for a little while.

SPEAKER_04: 7:52

Well, and and so often, as soon as they're behind bars, what do they start doing? Mom, dad, can you come post my bond? I gotta get out of here. This is awful. I'm in here with gang members, I'm in here with felons, I'm in here with people that are just horrible and my life is in danger. You know, and and they plant really significant seeds of fear in their parents because most parents have not been on the other side of those bars. Most parents can only imagine what that must be like. And to have their their little lovely son or daughter there that, you know, is still in their mind, that little one that they that they raised, all of a sudden they're on the other side of those bars and it's panic time.

SPEAKER_02: 8:29

Oh, yeah. They're they're bringing back every memory of every TV show they've seen or every every clip, every news article about jail, and and they're mostly looking at prisons. And then I can tell you, jail is not prison. No. It's not pleasant. It's not pleasant. It's a rude awakening when you w get thrown in jail and you shut that door and there's not a doorknob on the other end of that for you to open and you don't have freedom of movement. It's it's intense, man. It's just not pleasant.

SPEAKER_04: 8:56

I remember one night I got I got put in jail and it was so crowded that, you know, they give you this plastic-covered foam mattress to take into the cell with you, and and there was no bed for me. I had to put it on the floor. And I wasn't about- It was after lights out, and you know, there was everybody everybody had already had their bunk that they were taking. I wasn't about to try to get into a bunk or or even look for a uh an empty one. I just threw that thing on the floor and said, We'll deal with this tomorrow. I'm not gonna I don't do not want to disturb these men.

SPEAKER_03: 9:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 9:25

And uh, you know, it's just the the the calls start coming in. And they start coming in regularly. Have you ha have you have you met have you left yet? Are you coming down here to post my bond yet? What time are you gonna be here? And and all of a sudden parents are calling us going, What do I do? So what is some of your advice that you give to parents when they find themselves in that situation?

SPEAKER_02: 9:48

Uh is is there do you have an attorney involved? Yep. And a lot of them will, you know, you would I can I can understand that they wanting to use a court-appointed attorney. It's like, no, this is his, he's gotta figure out I don't want to put any money. It'll go two ways, either that way, which there's, you know, I'm not knocking court-appointed attorneys, but you're gonna get a little more attention from a paid attorney, and you even though and the attorney will tell you that that your loved one is his client, he's gotta do what the client wants, but with your paying the attorney and you're as a family member and going to say, look, this is what we're looking to achieve. We want some some uh some motivation for him to go to treatment. We're gonna provide him a treatment place to go to. We would like you to navigate with the court that that he's allowed to leave on bond with only the condition that he goes straight from door to door from treatment, I mean from jail to a treatment center by a professional. I'm I'm sure to include that when I'm coaching families. It's like the judge, the magistrate, whatever state you're in, whatever the prosecutor, whatever that person is, is more inclined to take it seriously and consider it if they know that it's that the you know the guy's not gonna be bailed out, go to mama's house or go to the girlfriend's house and you know, eat some spaghetti, and then maybe a couple days later end up in treatment, it's got to be there by a certain date. No, that that guy gets picked up by a professional and transported door to door. And if that individual leaves treatment that he goes directly back to jail.

SPEAKER_04: 11:21

That it's got to be written into the court order that there is a successful completion of treatment as defined by the treatment program. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_02: 11:28

Not the family, not the client, but the treatment professionals.

SPEAKER_04: 11:33

Yeah. And you know, if they are going to engage an attorney before any money gets paid, before retainers get handled, I would make it very clear exactly what you said. This is our goal. If you can help us achieve this goal, we'd love to engage you. If this is something that conflicts with your ability to have the kind of relationship you want to have with the client, our son or our daughter, we're gonna need to keep looking.

SPEAKER_03: 11:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 11:56

But but our goal is to get them to a place where they can get well. It's not we don't need them out of jail today.

SPEAKER_03: 12:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 12:02

We don't need them out of jail next week, depending on the charges. Um sometimes if the charges aren't as significant, you're working with a limited amount of time because they may get released anyway. So you've got some some time that, you know, I just had this happen with a family the other day. I was trying to get them to a treatment center down in Birmingham. A young man was in in jail in in Southern California, and we thought he was gonna be in for several days. And we thought we had some time, and he hit while he's I even talked to him from jail. And he's like, I'll uh whatever you want, I'll go. Yeah, whatever you need. Whatever whatever it is, just just get me out of here. And we couldn't get a flight out until the following morning. And so what ended up happening is he ended up getting released. Because they're crowded. They're crowded, they're especially in California. There's so much pe there's so many people in the jails, and they're releasing them for, you know, just to make room for the next wave coming in.

SPEAKER_02: 12:58

No bond releases, you know, or what is it, no bond? Mm-hmm. Uh where they're just they're locking them up and they just let turn around and letting them ride out. It's just it's a nightmare sometimes.

SPEAKER_04: 13:07

And so what ended up happening is the family got him a hotel room near the hotel, or near near the airport, excuse me, with the expectation that one of our friends who lives in Southern California would go pick him up and take him to the airport and get him on the plane the following morning. Well, he shows up, girlfriend's at at jail waiting for him. She goes to the hotel. Surely they get high that night by the next morning. Change of tune. Oh, yeah, that wasn't so bad. I don't think I need to go to treatment after all. I think I think I'm all right. So he was released on his own recovery. That he was still gonna go to treatment. But even in that those the twelve hours from the time he got released from treatment to the time that plane was supposed to leave, things had changed dramatically. Aaron Powell, Jr. And how long was he in jail? Three days. Three days?

SPEAKER_02: 14:03

So what's the plan now? How are you gonna navigate that?

SPEAKER_04: 14:06

He's on the street in Southern California right now. He's not talking with anybody, and and you know, we're gonna have to wait for the next crisis, it looks like. And it doesn't necessarily mean that the crisis is gonna be jail. It's very likely that it would, because now he's he's gonna have three bench warrants for him. Because he had the new charge and he had two previous warrants out for him. So now even with three charges that he was facing, they released him ROR. So very likely that the next contact he has with police, there's gonna be three bench warrants out for him and he's gonna go back in, but we're gonna have to move a lot faster next time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 14:38

Um but in an if I can jump in here a minute. Yeah. In a in an event where they're or if you're in a the locality where they're not gonna just, you know, turn and burn you, bring you in, book you, and then release you, uh and and there's a bond. Um I always encourage families as to Again, if there's no threat of them just letting them go, I always encourage families, don't be so quick to bond them out to get them the treatment. And even if they're saying, I'll go anywhere, I'll go, I'll do it, just get me out of here, I'll go to treatment. I I have families like hit the brakes a little bit. Let's let them sit there for a little bit. Let them let them let them be a little concerned that is is my family gonna help me out here or are they not? Because if you immediately jump in there, even if you're working with me, and you immediately jump in there and say, All right, we're gonna bail you out if you go to treatment, you're kind of sending a message that they're they're trying to fix, they're trying to f and they're just as fearful as, and they don't want me in here any more than I want to be in here, and it's it'll send a mixed message. Yeah. So I like to front load with, hey, you know what? We're not we're not positive that we're gonna get you out of this. We're not we're not so certain that we're willing to do this and to go down this road right now. We think maybe that maybe jail's the best thing for you right now and just let it play out in court. And let them sit there with it for a little while. Yeah. Let them show that that mom and dad are showing up a little bit differently, or husband or wife, whoever it is.

SPEAKER_04: 16:12

And if families aren't comfortable taking that hard of a line with them and really being able to sit in that discomfort, a lot of times what I'll have them say is, we're working on a plan. We're not sure what that's gonna look like right now. What we need from you right now is to wait until tomorrow at this time to call us back. Every time you call us, it interrupts our our opportunities to try to put something together here. And and we're working on it. We just need to know that. Tomorrow at four o'clock in the afternoon we'll we'll be ready to talk to you and see where we're at. We may not have a plan together by then. But don't call us until four o'clock tomorrow afternoon. That's great. That's great. And that way they know, like, if I call before four o'clock, they're not answering my phone calls. And it limits it it it allows them to sit. Number one, they're not trying to break down the door at their pr you know on the on the phone with their parents and blow their parents' phones up. But they've got to sit there and realize, like, oh, my family's not gonna make me feel better right now. They're not jumping in rushes. Yeah, they're not afraid as afraid as I want them to be. And I can't call them and try to make them more afraid because I'm in here with some really scary people. Because just because they're afraid, they want their family to feel afraid. And and that's not the way a crisis needs to be handled. Just because they're in crisis doesn't mean the family has to be. Because the the honest answer to that is they're safer than they were the day before.

SPEAKER_02: 17:35

Much safer.

SPEAKER_04: 17:36

And the people that they're in there with are nearly as scary as they're describing themselves.

SPEAKER_02: 17:40

The same people they're running around with out there.

SPEAKER_04: 17:41

Yeah. The same people that they're afraid of are afraid of your kid that are in there. The the other kids that are in there, the young people that are in there just as afraid of your son as as he is of them.

SPEAKER_02: 17:50

Yeah. That's the truth.

SPEAKER_04: 17:51

It is. For most of them. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Now, in th this kind of segues into the next question, and that is when families are faced with this need to set boundaries. What are some of the things that you ask families to consider when boundaries need to be set? Are there questions that they need to ask themselves? Are there things they need to consider in terms of what kind of boundaries do I need, and how do I define those boundaries?

SPEAKER_02: 18:19

I think a good tool and and some of these I got directly from you through your mentorship, but I think uh a one good tool is to actually make a list of like what am I what do I think that I am responsible for in my loved one? And what then on the next column, what am I actually responsible for for my loved one? And get some clarity on there. There's a lot of truth when pen to paper, you know, writing that the truth comes. I get it out of here and on the paper, and you can see it in black and white, and it makes a lot more sense. Um then look at like what do I need? Me, the lot the the the family member. Like, what do I need? What do I feel like I need? And while the stiffer the boundary, the more likelihood of of change happening, I have to look at what am I willing to do at this time that I can stick with. And am I doing it out of anger or am I doing it out of resolve of that I want change in my life?

SPEAKER_04: 19:28

Yeah. Such an important distinction because when I set a boundary or when a family sets a boundary, if they're setting it out of anger or fear, the minute the anger and the fear is gone, there's nothing to support the boundary. The boundary is gonna evaporate.

SPEAKER_02: 19:46

And and Because the those feelings aren't sustainable.

SPEAKER_04: 19:49

No, and and who are the people in our lives that we're most likely to forgive? Those that are closest to us, our our children, our spouse, our partner. Like that's that's that's who who we're gonna forgive first. Yeah. And and the minute my kid does something adorable or kind or you know, out of character, you know, especially if they're in active addiction, it's like, oh gosh, that's that felt so good. And we've lowered the bar on them so low.

SPEAKER_02: 20:14

They just told me they love me. How can I keep Yeah. I mean, you've lowered the bar so low without realizing it for your loved one. Is that anything that if they're not if they didn't get locked up that day, if they didn't crash a car that day, if they didn't OD that day, if they didn't rob me that day, if they didn't cuss me that day, then oh my God, things are better.

SPEAKER_04: 20:31

Well, and how many times do you get parents that are just so hungry for communication with their loved one that the minute they get engagement from their loved one, it's like, oh, you know what, I'm gonna hang on to this and I'm gonna try to keep this going as best I can. I don't want to do anything that's gonna push them away.

SPEAKER_03: 20:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 20:47

We know that game. Yeah, definitely. Because I've starved you for that attention and that communication for so long that I know you're so thirsty and so hungry for it that when I come back to the table, I might hit you with a right hook of needing something. I got you right in the palm of my hand because you're so grateful that I've re-engaged and you're so scared that I might go back into into into silence.

SPEAKER_02: 21:12

But families aren't fools though either, though. You know, they know down in their gut that what's what's really going on.

SPEAKER_04: 21:17

Sure. They might know it. They know that that they're they're being bamboozled. But the programming is there. Yeah. And it and it comes from that place of fear and that place of guilt. And and, you know, like we had been talking about earlier, the the the false belief that somehow they're at fault or they're responsible for the addiction existing in the first place.

SPEAKER_02: 21:38

Aaron Ross Powell, Jr. You know, one time, well, many times, but one time in particular I remember is driving down the road, uh going to the crack dealer and from a rural area, so it's country roads. Driving down the road, gripping my gripping the steering wheel with both hands, crying, tears rolling in my eyes, not wanting to go to that drug dealer, not wanting to go. Because I knew that just by this point, man, I knew it wasn't gonna end well. It was just gonna end up with I was gonna be naked in a field somewhere, I was gonna be missing person, something was gonna happen. And I couldn't turn the truck around. Kept going, kept going through it. I looked like I was unable to turn the truck around, or unwilling to turn the truck around. And families that that they're set up like that, and then their loved one comes to them with that right hook of needing something, and you said that they know, but that the programming, just like I was programmed, like I've got to have this relief. I know this is not gonna end well, I know the re relief is just very temporary, but I'm programmed I've gotta do it. So I mean, that's because I was addicted to crack cocaine. And families that that know it in their gut but still proceed because of the program, it's because they're addicted to their loved one. And another thing with the boundaries, as you were asking me, is it's like what are your expectations around this boundary? Are you doing this boundary trying to outmaneuver them? Are you doing this boundary with a with uh an expectation that they're gonna immediately comply, or is this gonna get them to go get the help that you've been pleading and and telling them and pointing fingers at them that they've needed, you needed to do this, you need to do that? Or are you setting this boundary for you because like I've had enough? Yeah. I need peace, or I'm gonna I'm gonna check out, or I'm gonna have a heart attack, or I'm gonna, you know, I'm I'm losing myself, I'm losing everyone else. Like, am I setting the boundary because I want something different? There's a huge difference in that.

SPEAKER_04: 23:27

And that I think that's the biggest difference between a boundary and an ultimatum is a boundary is I'm doing this because I'm trying to protect what's on the inside here. An ultimatum is I'm trying to create action or or or manipulate something on the outside. And if if those are my motives, if I'm just setting the boundary so that you'll do something different or so that you'll change, I'm manipulating you. Yeah. If I'm setting the boundary because I'm tired of having my shit stolen, and I and I want to hang on to my possessions, and I don't want to have to lock my stuff up in my house anymore. And I want to be able to walk into my house and know that I've created an environment where there's peace there and there's harmony, and I don't have to have that disturbed, that's very different.

SPEAKER_03: 24:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 24:11

Um it's like the the example that I use about the the castle. You know, you've got these big turrets, you've got the moat, you've got the drawbridge. None of that is to influence the behavior of the people that are on the outside. Right. I'm not trying to control them. I'm trying to protect what's on the inside of my castle. So if I'm gonna lower the drawbridge and let you cross the moat, you and I are gonna have to have some sort of understanding as how we're gonna show up for one another.

SPEAKER_02: 24:38

Oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_04: 24:38

And and let's let's move into now Okay, so we've set the boundary, and as happens quite often, those boundaries get tested and they get violated. One thing that I see families want to do is react in such a strong way that the other person knows I'm taking this seriously and you need to as well. And so what that looks like is anger and volume, and I need you to know just how how hurt and offended I am that you how wrong you are that you have violated this boundary. Right. And and while I am a firm believer that uh boundaries need to have consequences attached to them, good and bad. You know, you you honor a boundary, there's gonna be a good consequence. You violate a boundary, there's gonna be a negative consequence. Not to punish you, but to protect me. And and sometimes we feel like the reaction has to be so strong to that boundary violation that that person is gonna be so afraid to violate that boundary the next time because of my reaction to it. Well, you'll see that becomes the consequence. And that's not sustainable.

SPEAKER_02: 25:51

You know, man, if you pull it out of addiction, it's just how life works. Yeah. When you step away from addiction, I've got an example, if you don't mind me sharing a couple of examples. Hope my son doesn't mind me talking about it. He does. But you know, I had my son doing my youngest son doing some work with me and on content. And and he was doing it in the in my apartment. And you know, to him it's dad. Dad's hitting record, dad's doing this. He doesn't grasp that it's really a global thing that we're doing. And I'm dad. And I made it clear with the boundary. I said, son, this is not father and son. This is I need a job done, and it's very important, and it's crucial to this company. And it's if we can do that, we need it, we need an episode dropped every single day or five days a week. And this is what it these are the expectations, and this is what I'm willing to accept and what I'm not. He started off strong. Well, there's still a relationship, dad and son. He's had experiences with me that I didn't follow through with what I said. He's had many experiences of that through life. So I don't think he's any different than any other kid in father and son relationship. Well, he started not dropping episodes here and there and and being late dropping them and all. I said, son, this is uh he violated the bound the boundary that I had. I said, son, I'm running a business, man. This isn't personal. But I'm gonna have to get someone else to do this. I'm gonna finish you out for the week. Done. Love you, man. Look, we can go out to eat right now if you want. We can go hunting later. You know, we can talk about whatever, we can do whatever, but this that's that's my position. Love you, brother. You know, and then and I sold him my truck. And I this has nothing to do with addiction, but it still applies. Like the mindset behind it and the motive behind it still applies. But when people start talking about addiction, they just start getting so warped out about what is and what isn't. You know, a truck. I said, listen, my generosity, is it my is it my tune? I'm generous where where I decide to be generous. That's not dictated by anyone but me. I'm selling you this truck, I expect payment. If you're not able to make payment, I'm gonna get the truck. You know, like you don't get to dictate to me where I'm generous. I'm not giving you this truck. And he so because he's had some experiences of lately with me sticking to what I say and showing up there, because I've been that guy when he violated a boundary, coming out yelling and and blowing up like that that that the anger emotion on that Pixar movie inside out where he just blows his fire from the top of his head. Yeah. I've been that guy. But when because he's now had experiences that I back up what I say and don't lose my shit, excuse my language, he knows it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 28:45

That's the critical piece to this because we're so used to looking at addiction and that dynamic in addiction where the the addicted individual is the only one that's losing credibility, the only one that's not trustworthy. But when we don't hold up our end of it, you know, with my parents, so so commonly they would say, Next time, next time it's gonna be bad. Next time it's gonna be serious, serious consequences, too. You know, and and there would be a next time. And there may or may not have been consequences, but if there were, they were short-lived because I knew how to manipulate my way around them. And and the next thing you know, I was back in their good graces. I knew how to play the game.

SPEAKER_03: 29:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 29:25

And what I didn't realize is that I lacked confidence in my parents. I didn't trust that they were actually gonna hold boundaries with me. And and I think a lot of families uh need to look at that and say, okay, am I trustworthy in the eyes of my my loved one? Do they trust that when I say something, I'm gonna do it? Is my word bond. And it's not about having that violent reaction. Not violence in the sense of literal violence, but just a very over the top reaction. It's about, hey, you know, when we when we talked about this before, we established that if something happened like this, this is what would happen. I need I'm really sorry that you've chosen this. It's time for you to go.

SPEAKER_02: 30:11

Very calm. Did you ever get this on social media on comments or through the audience on meetings and all or in the chat? Of I've set boundaries, they didn't work. Yeah. What the hell does that even mean? Yep. Yeah. I mean, if like if I've got post-s on that land we're gonna hunt today and tomorrow, it's I've got post-signs around it. I've posted, I put up I've got a boundary because I have things on the inside of that boundary that I don't want touched and I don't want disturbed. It's my stuff. If someone crosses that boundary, crosses over in the property line and does donuts or kills animals or whatever, throws trash, and I don't do anything about it, that boundary didn't work. But you can bet your ass that when they cross that boundary, they're gonna have some consequences. So authorities are gonna be called. You know? Like it's gonna happen. So the if if I don't do anything, no, the boundaries don't work. They're not it's not a boundary. It's a suggestion. Yeah. It's a request.

SPEAKER_04: 31:14

That's right. That's right. And so before you set boundaries, and I'm talking to you know the families at large here, before boundaries get set, it's so critical to ask yourself, can't can I hold this boundary? Can I maintain this boundary? Even in the face of a really good, healthy relationship in all other aspects, if this boundary gets violated and things are going well between us, can I still hold this boundary? Um if you know you can't, don't set the boundary. You know, it's it it it's one of those things where uh again, uh I've set boundaries and they don't work. Well, either it's the wrong boundary and you weren't able to enforce it, or it was an inappropriate boundary that didn't need to be there in the first place, and you found that it just wasn't able to be enforced. And so for some families, they know, okay, I don't want somebody using drugs or alcohol in my home. But I also know that I'm not gonna be able to put them out. I'm not gonna be able to ask them to leave. And so what is a realistic boundary that I can set that I can enforce so that if I have to get to that point where I do have to ask them to leave, that they'll actually believe that I mean it. What are some some alternative boundaries that that you sometimes will ask families to set or suggest that families set with their loved ones?

SPEAKER_02: 32:37

If they're if they're living in the home.

SPEAKER_04: 32:38

If they're living in the home or you know, in some way on the receiving end of some generosity from the family, whether it's a vehicle, a phone, money, uh a roof over their head, food, spending money, whatever it is.

SPEAKER_02: 32:51

And they're not willing to set the ultimate boundary of like, hey, this isn't happening in my home, you're gonna have to leave. Yeah, the bank is closed, the janitor's getting fired, like all of that. Well, it uh um and that's a tough one because I'm a guy that that's like you know, you can communicate a little bit differently. I would encourage the family deep dig deeper into their own work because the day is gonna have to come where you're gonna you're gonna have to enforce and hold and set a very that that tough boundary that in which you don't want to do. But it can look like a multiple of things, uh it can it can look like like several things actually. I think one that comes to mind is is uh you know, 10 o'clock, you know, doors locked.

SPEAKER_04: 33:39

Because sometimes the the the boundary really needs to be I'm not gonna be afraid of this anymore. I've sat back and I've stayed quiet about this because I'm afraid of your reaction. So rather than maybe put you out on the street and ask you to leave my home because that's really the experience you need to have, what I'm gonna start with is I'm not gonna be afraid to address the problem. I'm not gonna be afraid to talk about the elephant in the room anymore. It doesn't have to be the only thing we talk about. But every time my life gets affected by this, we are going to have a conversation.

SPEAKER_02: 34:10

Right. And I'm not gonna hold secrets for you. That's right. I'm not gonna make excuses for your work. That's right. I'm not gonna make excuses for your siblings, or for you to your siblings, or to your father, or to your mother, or to your grandmother. You know, Graham Graham, you know, I'm not holding secrets from Graham Graham anymore. I know you want Graham Graham to think that you're just, you know, you're still that innocent kid. I'm not holding secrets. Secrets keep you sick. I'm not doing that. I'm not covering for you.

SPEAKER_04: 34:36

And it may be, you know, I'm still gonna provide a place for you to live and I'm still gonna give you food, but that car you've been driving that's in my name? Nope. You can take public transport.

SPEAKER_02: 34:46

Yeah, yeah. All right, now that I understand the question a little bit. I got twisted up in the in the question. Yeah, no problem. It's very simple. It is very it's very simple. Yeah, like I'm not giving you spending money, I'm not buying you cigarettes, I'm not providing groceries for you. Um if if if I cook something and there's you know, um and you you you enjoy it and I know you like it, you know, that like but I'm not I'm not your I'm not your banker and I'm not your janitor, I'm not doing your laundry, I'm not I'm not doing those things. Aaron Powell not a short order cook where every time you want a sandwich, I'm making you one. Right. I'm not your maid. Yeah. Yeah. But I'm definitely I'm not gonna hold secrets. I'm not gonna be held hostage by your addiction. You know, if you're intoxicated, uh stay somewhere else at night. Uh if you drive intoxicated, I will call the authorities because I have a responsibility to the public. Yep.

SPEAKER_04: 35:37

And maybe they're not living with you. Maybe it's a situation where this is a sibling and they're consistently showing up to family functions under the influence, and they're around your kids under the influence. It may be simply I'm not ready to completely sever my my relationship with you, and I'm certainly not willing to take my children out of your life, but I need you to understand that every time we show up at a family function, if you're under the influence, I'm taking my family and I'm leaving.

SPEAKER_02: 36:03

Yeah. Yeah, I've I've had a situation with a family where um, you know, the guy's been in treatment a bunch of times. They're not enabling him in any way, shape, or form. They're not giving him any money, no rides, no cars, nothing. He's completely self-suff self-supporting through his own contributions. What little of them, what little of it is it is. And they were talking about Thanksgiving or Christ. She's like, you know, he sometimes he's high when he shows up, sometimes oftentimes he's he's very docile and he's he's pleasant, and you know, I just don't know what to tell him. I mean, he's not asking for anything, he's not do we just tell him no, you're not included as long as you're you're you're you're in that lifestyle. And I'm like, well, how about this? You know, how about say, you know, look, we'd love to have you at Christmas. We'd love to see you. And but we're not going to provide transportation because he lives out of state. We're not going to provide transportation for you. We're none unable to do that and unwilling to do that. And if you're able to be here and and not be under the influence and just, you know, maintain some abstinence, uh, we would love and and not cause chaos, and uh we would love to have you. We'd love to have you sh be here for Christmas, because we love you. You're you're our son. We love you. We want you to to be with us, but we don't want the chaos. So if you don't if you can't get here, we understand. We'll love you. Send you a gift card or whatever. Or football. Isn't that what you got? You got a football as a grown man. I got a Christian.

SPEAKER_04: 37:43

One Christmas, I got beautifully wrapped packaged. Came to me in the mail because I wasn't able to get home. I open it up and it's a coupon book for McDonald's. Right. It's great. And I'm thinking, good grace.

SPEAKER_01: 37:55

Are you kidding me? Did you use it though? Absolutely. No, you did, because you didn't have money to eat. No.

SPEAKER_04: 38:00

I probably used it all in the first two days.

SPEAKER_01: 38:02

Man, I had coupon books. Hungry.

SPEAKER_02: 38:04

Hardy's, McDonald's, Wendy's, like nothing that I could get and trade. Nothing.

SPEAKER_04: 38:11

And and the next year I was able to go home. I was like 26, 27 years old, and everybody was opening presents. There was nothing for me under the tree. I'm sitting there, I'm getting mad. Like, where's my stuff? And at the very end, my dad's like, hey, I d didn't forget about you. There's a gift for you around the back of the tree there. Why don't you go grab it? And it's a football. Trevor Burrus, Jr.: How old were you at that? Like 27 years old. Right. Getting a football for Christmas. But you know, they were protecting me from myself. They knew that I was not going to be able to trade a football for, you know, a gram of cocaine.

SPEAKER_01: 38:43

He didn't have anyone to throw football with, though. Throw it up in the air. That's all the best you could do. That was it.

SPEAKER_04: 38:50

Or punt and retrieve. I couldn't even like do a frisbee and throw it up in the air and have it come back to me. That's great. Trevor Burrus, Jr.: It's appropriate, though. I mean, we are kind of bumping up against the holidays here, and I think it's something for families to really think about is, you know, how do I set boundaries? How do I enforce boundaries? What do I do when boundaries are violated, especially when I want so badly for my loved one to be home for this holiday season? And don't let the holidays be a reason for you not to get your loved one the help that they need. They have all this evidence to suggest that it's going to be like every other previous year.

SPEAKER_02: 39:33

Trevor Burrus, Jr. Best way to predict future behavior is look at past behavior unless something drastic happens.

SPEAKER_04: 39:37

Trevor Burrus, Jr. Yeah, the most of the time the only way to make this year different and every other Christmas and Thanksgiving that comes after different is for you guys to take the action you need to take this this Christmas season or this holiday season. But Sam, it's been so nice to have you. Glad to be here, man. You know, it's nice to be able to be sitting in the same room together. Um last time we were in the same room together, it was at your dad's memorial service in the Virginia.

SPEAKER_02: 39:59

Yeah, last time we were in Virginia together. And I appreciate you, man. That's a friend to fly all the way across the country.

SPEAKER_04: 40:05

But it's just it's been too long since we've been in the same room together. And I just want you to know that I appreciate you, I love you, and thanks for being on this episode today.

SPEAKER_02: 40:12

And I've missed you this last summer. Yeah. Since we were a part. I've missed you too. So I'm glad to be here now, Frank.

SPEAKER_04: 40:18

Thank you. And and to you families out there, uh, if you find yourself struggling, if you need help learning how to set boundaries and hold boundaries and what to do when boundaries get crossed, reach out to us. You know, find us at Intervention on Call. Come to one of the nightly free sessions that we do five nights a week now. Book a session with either Sam or myself or one of the other six providers that are that are on the platform with us. We are here to help you and would love to hear from you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00: 40:48

Thanks again for listening to the Party Records. If you liked what you heard, please leave us a rating and a review. This helps us get the word out to more people. To learn more or to ask us the question we can answer in a future episode, please visit us at partyrecords.com. And remember, don't enable addiction ever.