117. Should we force kids to apologize?

Today's episode focuses on the topic of getting kids to apologize. Long thought of as a typical expectation for kids, an article Andrew read prompted the question about whether we should force kids or not.

There's pros and cons to both viewpoints, but the conversation dives into the "whys" around making kids apologize to begin with.

Want to learn more? Check out Caroline's article on this very topic!
https://korupsychology.ca/should-we-force-kids-to-apologize/

And, if you're interested in reading the article that prompted this week's discussion you can check it out here (requires a subscription to The Atlantic):

https://shorturl.at/yCqX2

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Transcript

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: Hello, sir! Hello! What are you doing

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: now? It's

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: what are you doing? Just hanging out in the closet?

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: Yeah. Me as well. Me as well. I was cold, freezing, except now I'm warm.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: Well, it's cause we're in a room that's barely big enough for 2 of us, and you're wearing like 17 layers.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: true, and surrounded by like heavy

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: moving blankets.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: very heavy. These are light duty.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: Oh, okay.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: I said. Duty.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: What else going on?

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: Our daughter graduated. She sure did.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: She sure did, and just settled a little bit from it. Spun night. Their grad was way fancier than my grad, wasn't it?

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: But then I also looked at my

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: grade. 6 Year Book.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: When I graduated from the illustrious Silver Springs. Elementary.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: It was trash, like

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: it was

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: of such low quality. Oh, yeah.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: like every picture was photocopied. Yeah, mine, too. And you couldn't tell really who the person is. Mine was. A 5 by 7 book. Oh, no, ours was a full. Oh, yeah, no. Mine was a 5 by 7 little photocopied book, maybe like 10 pages interesting.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: Mine has a custom cover on it that I drew, and I don't know if I drew it, and they used it for all of the year books, or just we all had our own. We had a

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: Ca contest in grade 7

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: for the front, and I want it. So my

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: seeing it's on the front of my grades up. You know what I said I was going to be when I grew up. What a writer or a cartoonist! Oh, I am neither, but kind of are no kind of how well you not! What have I written? You've written a couple of books now. You've not done anything with them, but you have. You talk about them.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: Don't talk about like like publishing that. Oh.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: maybe sound like a guy at a party talking about the book I'm working on, and you drew cartoons of us as a family.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: If we make you draw, you'll sit. And but yeah, you're not too much.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: I know you don't do it for work. But

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: it was just in so good.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: maybe. Yeah, maybe start sketching away.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: What did you think? So that was when you're at itty bitty?

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: Oh, 6. Yeah. Well, grade 6. Yeah. What did you think you're gonna be like? Grade 12

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: right up until I had to do high school math. It shifted to architecture. And then I started doing math. I'm like, no, I will blow my brains out if this is my life.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: That was it. That's one of the most stressful jobs and dentistry. But I love it. I love architecture. I love looking at that sort of stuff, a drafting table, and she drafting tables because I bought you another one. You did. But then, yeah, yeah, like, I said, I,

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: Nope was the path for me. I decided that aimlessly drifting was the career choice of mine.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: And then, I know, like, when we were in our 20 s. You promised me millions.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: we'd be millionaires, and I could retire at 35.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: Yeah, you're bringing that up a lot, Taylor. Thank you.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: We didn't.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: But I drove you past multimillion dollar houses today. So that's kind of the same thing. That's June. Yeah.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: So what was there more about your?

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: It's especially funny to see some of the guys that I still know.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: and their little pictures in there. Oh, I don't know anybody.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: Lead. Grant is in it.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: I know weed you do. You should see he was a cutie patootie back in the day.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: I didn't meet them until we were in our 20 S. But yeah, let's ship it sailed by. Then

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: he's a cute. The old Ss. Cuteness was long to see by the time you met him.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: Would you like to dive into my topic today? Yes.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: so I read an article, and I'm going to read you the the headline of the article, and then I'll get your thoughts on it, and I will

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: try my best to pepper you with parts from the article to

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: spur things on. Alright.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: is it wrong in your okay? Thanks for coming to our Ted Talk? Everybody.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: Is it wrong

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: to tell kids to apologize.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: It depends. Oh, I love it already. You're already. You're already taking both sides.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: Okay, is there more context?

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: I'll give you the buy this the buy line. Okay, some parents argue that forcing children to say they're sorry is useless or even harmful.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: However, the reality is more nuanced. According to Stephanie H. Murray.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: Okay, so for me, it depends. Actually, I just did a whole series on bullying.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: I went to Minnesota to record some videos on this topic for bullying. Yeah, I wouldn't. And they made they forcibly made you say words wrong in that video. But continue.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: Yes, they did.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: Didn't make sense, but I did the American way. It wasn't even an American way. Don't give them the benefit they were. They were mispronouncing those words on any content. Well, it was tenses. They were telling me to say past tense when past tense did not make any sense at all.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: Anyways, we won't get into that.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: It depends.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: This is

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: saying, like in the bullying context, I would never expect kids.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: I am all for

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: retribution

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: making amends. Okay, but not when it's with another kid.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: Okay? So if

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: yeah, there's bullying happening, or whatever, I wouldn't expect

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: 2 kids to apologize to each other.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: Interesting? Yeah. Why?

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: Because there could be a lot of shaming. There could be a lot of backlashing. There could be a lot of even like the one bully if they felt shamed or embarrassed. Being forced to it could backlash even further on the other poor kid, right like there's so many pieces that could go sideways so it would never force it upon other kids.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: I would never force it if

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: the Kid never felt Ju heard, and just like their justification and their side of the story cause oftentimes that happens where kids are forced to apologize. But no, nobody listened to them, and they feel like they were justified right. And I see that all the time where it's a kid who's forced to apologize to maybe a teacher that they swore to, but that teacher was being a jerk to them right? And there's no.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: So I guess that's even outside, out of out of the kids. But there's lots of different reasons with the kids. It could go sideways. There's lots of different reasons. It could go sideways in any point, especially if the child

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: was never heard. Their perspective was never taken, and they just feel more ashamed and vulnerable.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: I would

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: in in the, you know. Let's say a kid pulls the fire alarm.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: I would want them to go to the fire station and apologize right, but there would be some teaching there. I would make sure that they feel heard and understood, and all of those pieces. But then, being able to talk about. Look what what would happen if there was another fire just down the street. Now all those firemen are caught up at the school, because there's all these, all these children that they need to come and you know, protect.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: We need to make this right. Right? So in those cases, absolutely, I I would

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: I had another point in there, but I've lost it in terms of

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: yeah, but there's no point doing it. If we're forcing them, I would. We can still

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: get the buy in. I would focus on that piece first. Yeah. So those are all points that are raised in the article is is that those that are against it touch on the shame piece right? And and it's it's a

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: not weaponized, isn't the right word, but it's used against the child as a way to make them feel shame and force them, you know.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: To do something that they're truly not remorseful for.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: Shame is a good thing, though, in terms of when it, when we aren't shaming them, but they feel shame. But that was the difference. They were saying that if it was. If it was us shaming them into doing, it is not the same as making sure that they feel remorse, and that's why they're doing it. The 1 point that they did raise, which I thought was interesting, though, is that

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: by doing this

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: they're those that are for it in in certain circumstances, or all the time

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: cited, as there's a research, and I'll I'll make sure that the article is posted so everybody else can read it if they want, but

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: that essentially, by just by the act of having them do it. You're teaching them how to actually apologize because there's studies basically that are coming out. And I was saying.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: kids don't know how to apologize, and they don't know how to take accountability, and we've seen it. We just talked about it the other day, right? If it's we live in an era of no, it's not my fault. I'm I'm entitled to do this and do it so there is no real apology right? There is no

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: introspection on your actions and the effect it has on others. And we're seeing the outcome of that. So the people that are big proponents of it are exactly right. You need to understand

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: all these other pieces, but the act of doing it

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: gives the kids both the the person apologizing and the person being apologized to. They understand then the process and the interaction piece of it, as well

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: as well as

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: those kids in the study that

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: even if

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: they felt that it wasn't genuine, those kids that were apologized to

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: felt it was better than nothing which I thought was interesting. So for the recipient they knew the Kid wasn't

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: wasn't really believing it, but they're like, but at least he said he's sorry, or at least they said it, or at least it's something.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: So that that was interesting. Because.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: yeah, I think it's I can see why they call it a more nuanced conversation, because there's different parts to it as well. But it I thought it was very interesting.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: Okay, so I wouldn't want them to say sorry. So just to go back like to this piece like with another kid. But

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: I would want them to show words are pretty empty and meaningless, and don't mean a lot right? It's just like we could say, I'm sorry, but

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: or I love you, but it's through. It's through actions right? And I say that to the girls all the time. I'm sorry. Don't see you sorry. Just don't do it again right? I I don't want you to apologize for not doing the dishes. Keep going. Yeah. So

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: there was a camp. I I I can't remember. I think it was for the Vietnam

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: war.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: I can't remember if it was Vietnam, or maybe it was Afghanistan or something. It was. It was something.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: But

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: years later they brought together soldiers

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: who, let's say, threw grenades into it was something it was some big thing. I can't remember what it was, but anyway, you get the drift. So soldiers who

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: followed orders and bombed, or through grenades, or whatever into

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: a village

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: with innocent people, and it they they! So they brought victims.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: and a lot of them were kids. A lot of them would have lost arms or legs.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: and then the soldiers together.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: and I can't remember what they were doing, but it was like a camp, and I just remember one story. I'll try not to cry. But I remember one story where they had to go like across a little stream or river, and there was a woman who had lost her legs, who couldn't make it.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: I'm gonna cry.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: But one of the soldiers picked her up

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: and carried her.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: and he was responsible for if not her accident. It was like within, around the same time and around the same place.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: I'm sorry, and that

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: is meaningful

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: right like that. There was so much healing on both sides

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: cause a lot of times, you know, when we look at even like bullying stuff. I mean, they a lot of them don't actually know. Like I look back.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: I was a bully. If I look back at my behaviors as a kid

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: in elementary school.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: not so much as I got older, but especially in like, Okay, well, let's start.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: But in in elementary like, I was a bully. But if I look back and look.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: it doesn't fit the classic

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: definition of bullying, which is power, imbalance. Maybe there was a power imbalance, but with the intent to harm. I never had an intent to harm I never would have. If someone said, You're being a bully.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: I would just stop dead in my tracks. I just was thinking like this would be really funny what would happen? Because I'm a prankster right? And I remember this one girl telling her that she was gonna blow away. But she was

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: twice my size, right, but I told she was gonna blow, and I convinced her she was gonna blow away, and she stood holding onto a fence for like.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: But you know, it's wasn't because I was trying to be mean. It's just like it was really funny and prank, and like I do that still with my kids stuff right? But

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: so I would be mortified. And and of course I would say, sorry. But

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: a lot of times

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: these kids are defending themselves or defending something that's important to them, and that's disregarded.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: So apologizing is good so long as they are, their perspective is also heard and understood, because otherwise we're always making them the aggressor and apologize. And we're always making the other one a victim, too. And I know we've talked about this as well. So how can we? So for me

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: like it wouldn't be even just looking at siblings right? Like I'm I'm just thinking of a family that I work with right now the sibling rivalry can be really bad.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: and they're always forcing the one sibling to apologize to the other, even though the other is kind of pushing buttons. And that's the other thing, right? Like it's always that.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: So the one sibling is always the aggressor, the other one's always the victim, and they're playing those roles

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: for me, and it doesn't mean anything because they're just gonna do it again. And the the other one knows that it's not real right and so, but one of the most powerful things that we did as an instead of words of apology.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: the one sibling had destroyed something that

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: their sister had made.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: and

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: they went back, and it took them a little while, but they rebuilt it. They recreated it like, tried gluing it together and taking it together, and that was so meaningful right that that was so meaningful. And then, even if the the other sibling didn't mean it

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: like, even if they just

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: fine! I'll put it back together.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: No words are needed right? Just the act of doing it, even if the intention wasn't necessarily there. But the but the other sibling meant so much to them right, and then there is no

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: fake words that come across. They just saw that act, and even if the the others. I'm trying not to say one of them's for sure, girl, but I'm trying not to say genders or anything. But even if the other sibling

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: saw, and they did see the sister just like well up and like Oh, my gosh! That was so thoughtful! They felt better, even if they weren't feeling better. Putting the thing back together, they actually felt that softness, and like the kindness and what their kindness had done.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: So for me. It's more like that than just forcing.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: rushing immediately to say, Sorry, yeah. And I think I think you're right right. The

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: taking them through the process of

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: understanding why they did it. But then, understanding the

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: outcomes that they've created.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: you can then steer them towards a more, whether it's an apology or an act right

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: if you can get them to the point that they understand both sides of it and feel like they at least understand it. I get that that makes sense for sure.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: I think, having a conversation about this is the situation. How do we fix it? Right like them? Being involved in that conversation is way more

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: effective, especially for talking about taking accountability for our actions right? Like, I think that they just we have to have a conversation. It's not just dragging them over to the other kid and or helicoptering in in the moment, telling, say, sorry, without understanding everything that's going on, because we we've talked about that before, right? We've had situations where willow?

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: Hmm!

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: For all intents and purpose, wasn't doing anything. But this kid picked on her right, and one of them

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: dislocated her ribs right. It was severe.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: and

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: she was made to feel like she had to apologize to them for whatever, for whatever reason.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: and it comes down again to.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: In that situation it was more. The school just didn't wanna get in trouble for anything.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: But you're right. She never felt like anybody understood why, right?

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: And

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: it completely diminished the fact that she got hurt when she was told that she, too, had to be punished in some facet for being hit right. It was just. It's such a weird approach to it.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: Well, even at that teacher parent, the parent teacher, interviews we didn't know exactly what the situation was. She was gone, hadn't come to school, and the teacher was like, Oh, is Willow here? I gotta figure out cause a boy was, you know, came to me quite upset about based on something that she said, and I bet if she was at school that day, I bet the teacher would have made her apologize. But then, hearing the story.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: she was actually defending one of her friends. Right? But that's not what

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: we we miss the whole picture right? And it's about, how can we move forward from here together and and not? It's not about placing blame right? Like

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: it's about

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: saying I'm angry like

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: we blame. We're so quick to blame. I'm angry because you did this right. We're immediately just detracting. And it's just gonna create defensiveness everywhere. And it's never gonna mean anything.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: But I could say, I am really angry. And this is what I need.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: That would be way more helpful, right? And then it's like, okay. And then our listening ears are gonna be on our listening brains are gonna be on. We can start take accountability that way.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: There's so much I would want, I want to say. But I think the forcing is what I have a problem with, right? We it's not going to teach accountability. It's going to be counter productive. It's going to do the exact opposite. Yeah, teaches subservience and and resentment. Yeah, yeah 100.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: And we gotta model it, too. I think that's the other thing. Kids. Kids are always having to

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: say sorry and take accountability. But what about the adults in their lives, too? Right? Like, I think

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: there's so many precursor steps to it. I do think it's valuable. I do think it's important. I do think they have to take accountability. We talk about this all the time.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: There's a lot of other pieces to you if we really want them to truly

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: learn from their behaviors, and

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: and take that account well, and you raise a good point, right like, if you're a parent

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: and you're going on 2 decades of having kids, and you've never once been wrong.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: Maybe it's time to take a closer look and realize that you're not perfect, right? And there's an opportunity to teach your kids

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: that perfection isn't the goal and blind obedience isn't the goal

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: like some parents approach it as yeah. You want them to be respectful, and you want them to listen. And you want them to do what they need to do. But there's a way to approach that. And there was way not. And

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: anyone that defaults to the because I'm the parent, as their rationale is most likely missing some steps.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: Right? Yeah.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: And you know, I always say, and this is true, like, I'm an expert in this stuff. But I apologize almost daily, cause I do make a mistake. And I do mess up right? And so.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: yeah, and I think that that's just good modeling, too

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: cool.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: Was there anything else in the no, you you! So you surprisingly hit everything in your little

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: think through of it like I didn't have to prompt you at any part. It it does come down to both sides, essentially, are.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: are no kids need to apologize just to apologize like they need to understand how that they? It's up to them to apologize, and the other one is is more what we've talked through, which is.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: no, there's

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: there's give and take to it right like yes, understanding the act, and the importance of being able to genuinely apologize

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: is important. But certain criteria need to be met before that actually happens, and you kind of just nailed it so it really could have been your article.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: And

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: I I would say, too, like, What is it the other person wants needs to right like the person who was the victim. Let's just say right, is that actually cause for some of them? They don't even want like, just

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: stop right like just, I don't want any more attention. I don't like they. They might be

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: more dramatized to you, really at the end, because that that has to admit that they were. They were the victim in this instance, when

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: there's a chance that the the incident started from a completely different power, dynamic, right or something, because they just don't want any more attention. Or it wasn't as big of a deal that other people. So I see that a lot, too. It's not even as big of a deal as you know. Somebody thinks that it is

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: or they didn't didn't even.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: No right. I get the lesson to be

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: taught to the perpetrator for lack of a better word. But anyway.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: cool, cool, well done. It's like you're a pro at this.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: Maybe maybe I've read something on this once before, once or twice.

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Dr. Caroline Buzanko: Talk to you later.