Behind the Button Eyes: Two Claymation Films Explored

Ever wonder what secrets lie beneath the surface of your favorite claymation films? In this time-capsule episode from our archives, we peel back the layers of two stop-motion masterpieces to reveal their hidden depths.

Our journey begins with "Coraline," Henry Selick's haunting adaptation that, upon closer inspection, serves as a chilling allegory for predatory behavior. We explore how the Other Mother's manipulation tactics mirror real-world grooming techniques, transforming what seems like a children's fantasy into something far more sinister. The neglectful parents who provide necessities but withhold emotional connection create the perfect storm of vulnerability that makes Coraline susceptible to the Other Mother's false promises. This reading adds profound weight to those button eyes and too-good-to-be-true parallel world.

The conversation shifts to Guillermo del Toro's "Pinocchio," a 15-year labor of love that reimagines the classic tale through the lens of grief and fascism. We dissect del Toro's artistic choices, from keeping Pinocchio wooden throughout the film to setting the story against the backdrop of World War II Italy. Most fascinating is our discovery that del Toro's work consistently explores father-son relationships, reflecting his personal experiences and adding emotional resonance to this centuries-old story.

Both films use the painstaking art of claymation to create worlds that feel tangible yet dreamlike, familiar yet unsettling. Through our wildly different reactions to Pinocchio (one host gives it a scathing 2/10 while the other offers a more generous 5/10), we demonstrate how personal taste colors our perception of even the most technical achievements in animation.

Whether you're a claymation enthusiast, a film theory buff, or simply curious about the deeper meanings behind these visually stunning works, this episode offers fresh perspectives that will forever change how you view these stop-motion classics. Join us as we celebrate the artistry and examine the darkness lurking just beneath the clay.

🍿 We want to know your reviews, and movie picks, too! Connect with us on Instagram:  

• @thedoublefeaturepodcast
• @a.glitter.goddess - Blanca, Co-Host
• @fivekrunner90 - Bri, Co-Host

Transcript

Introduction to Season 2 Unreleased Episode

Speaker 1 0:10

Welcome to Season 2 of the Double Feature Podcast . Today we're opening up the time capsule . We'll be enjoying one of our unreleased episodes from a few years ago . Think of it as a conversation frozen in time .

Speaker 2 0:26

Buckle up and get ready to time travel in three , two , one today's topic is claymation and we will be reviewing coralline and guillermo del toro's pinocchio

Coraline: Plot and Production Overview

Speaker 2 0:55

.

Speaker 3 0:55

Starting off with coralline while exploring her new home , a girl named coralline discovers a secret door behind which lies an alternate world that closely mirrors her own , but in many ways is better . She rejoices in her discovery until other mother and the rest of her parallel family tried to keep her there forever . Coraline must use all her resources and bravery to make it back to her own family it back to her own family .

Speaker 2 1:30

This movie is rated pg uh . Its director is henry selick uh , which you might know him as he also directed the nightmare before christmas and also directed james and the giant peach . He directed monkey bone . Is that the one ? Oh , brendan fraser yeah , and then he actually went on to do wendell and wild . That's on net right now . I don't know if you've seen that one . That's also .

Speaker 3 1:45

Isn't that the Jordan Peele yeah ?

Speaker 2 1:48

Yeah , A film . Yeah , they're in there . And so he wrote and directed this movie . Nice , oh . No , this is based off a book . Oh , so it's also from a book . Oh you're .

Speaker 2 2:00

Okay , this movie was released february 6 2009 . Box office gross usa is 75.3 million . Uh , it stars dakota fanning as coralline , you have terry hatcher as mom , slash other mother , john hodgman as dad , you got Robert Bailey Jr as Wyvorn and Keith David as the cat . So I was like there's a lot going on . I watched this movie around the time it came out and I got lost in it . I don't know what I expected in it .

Speaker 3 2:38

Did you like it ?

Speaker 2 2:39

when you first saw it . No , I think I didn't pay that much attention to it . I think I was expecting like in my eyes it was it was an animation , it's not , it's claymation , and I thought it was supposed to be like a upbeat , like kid no movie , and it wasn't . So it lost me already there

Analyzing Parents in Coraline

Speaker 2 2:55

. But you know what it's . It's . It's creative as a good storyline it's creative . Um , I really feel like the adults were really rude and mean to the children .

Speaker 2 3:06

Yeah , I feel like what ? Were they impatient ? Were they workaholic ? Did you want kids like poor coralline ?

Speaker 3 3:13

yeah , I already saw this . Not right when it came out . I think I was like in high school wait , what year did it come out , you ?

Speaker 2 3:21

said it came out in uh 2009 2009 .

Speaker 3 3:24

Okay , no , so I was already like in college , so I think I saw it like a year or two later and I remember I related to coralline pretty hard , oh yeah I was like man .

Speaker 2 3:35

Her mom is a , b , she sucks , she doesn't get it and I think there's like a genuine like uncaring for her . Yeah , like they didn't care for her , like , and the dad was a little bit more playful , but still kind of like go away . Why were they so bothered by her ? It bothered me .

Speaker 3 4:00

That is a question I have Like why I feel like adults feel like they could be mean to kids .

Speaker 2 4:08

I think so too , because they're bigger , it's a bullying thing . Yeah , that's what I think , because they're bigger , because I feel like , if I'm not short , but if there was a tall-ass kid that was my height , I think I would watch more about how I spoke to them . Yeah , you know what I mean .

Speaker 3 4:25

So I think for some people it's simply because they're older , but I think it's also a size thing because it's like when coralline came into the kitchen and was asking her mom , whatever , and she was like I have to work , coralline , it's like you wouldn't talk to your husband that way , so why are you talking to your daughter like that ?

Speaker 2 4:41

she kind of does , though I was like , does the mother even love her family like she ? This is the dad when she drops him off at work ? Like she's just like they're not gonna like your stuff , but they're gonna like my stuff . Like , yeah , do you guys give a shit about each other ? Like what the fuck yeah .

Speaker 3 4:58

But then now you know , watching it as an adult , I'm like , okay , well , it's raining , they're moving , I just , I just noticed this when I had re-watched it . But I guess the mom was in a car accident and um , oh , is that what happened ?

Speaker 2 5:14

oh , okay because I ?

Speaker 3 5:15

because the whole time I thought she was wearing a turtleneck , but she was wearing like a neck brace yeah , that makes sense . So I was like , well , no wonder she's like in a bad mood , she's grumpy , she doesn't feel good , yeah , which I think still you shouldn't like she was still being kind of rude to her daughter .

Speaker 2 5:30

But I was like , well , it makes more sense now well , I just feel like you know , especially if you have a single child like why ? Would you bore them to being at a house all day ? And this was like before . Technology was booming for the kids , right ? Yeah , she didn't have a video game , they just moved in like you couldn't have enrolled her at the ys , why ? What is it the ?

Speaker 2 5:50

ymca boys and girls club , anything like after school activities , like anything at all , like you're I don't know . I was offended by it , so you said you related to coralline yeah right and then . Yeah , then , and now you're watching it , do you still relate to coralline ? Yeah , right and then . Yeah , then and now you're watching it .

Speaker 3 6:06

Do you still relate to coralline or do you relate to the parents ?

Speaker 2 6:09

oh , so now I see both sides .

Speaker 3 6:10

Oh yeah , laid on me because I feel like , as the parent there , they had to . They moved for like their job and their research or whatever . So they're trying to provide for their family . They're trying to pay the bills and you know they're um , she has a house , she has food , she has clothes . They go shopping for her new like school clothes and stuff . So I feel like they are taking care of her , but they're not .

Speaker 2 6:34

It's the bare necessity yeah yeah , but they're not like providing companionship which I think is a very overlooked um thing in parenting . Okay , so then that's what you felt . So that was one side . What about the other side ? Did you see the other side for coralline ?

Speaker 3 6:51

yeah , it's sad , you know , because they moved and she misses her friends , because she mentions like , oh well , when my friends come to visit , you know I want to have this ready and whatever . And she has a picture of them by her bed , so like she's totally in a new place , like , yeah , she's probably lonely , yeah , and I think , yeah , and then her parents aren't really taking any of that into consideration yeah , and I feel like , in a way , that they they're going through the same thing she's going through too .

Speaker 2 7:18

And you know what's something that I hate , and I think this is a little too real when the family goes through something , instead of having it all lays down to your coping skills , because instead of them , instead of it bringing them together , yeah , it's bringing them farther apart . Yeah , and I think that falls on the parents is because it's like the coping skills .

Speaker 3 7:36

You're lacking the coping skills and you know they're doing the best they can like everybody else yeah , but yeah , that coping , coping skills was a real mess and then the way they were trying to like , I felt like they kept like sending her away . They're like , oh , go visit the neighbors , go talk to you , know so and so . But then the neighbors were also like they're adults , like yeah , that's not gonna be fun for her to go hang out with the neighbors and why would you send your underage child to hang out with people ?

Speaker 2 8:02

you know what I I mean ? Yeah , people you don't know you never met . So I relate to Coraline . I'm on Coraline's side , the whole time .

Speaker 3 8:08

But I think this is what makes Coraline a prime target for predators , because she is lonely , she's sad Unsupervised . Unsupervised . Her parents aren't

The Predatory Nature of Other Mother

Speaker 3 8:20

paying attention and I think I really like this movie . Well , watching it now , because my mind was blown and I was like I was like the other mother is a child molester okay , so I didn't take it that far .

Speaker 2 8:32

I wrote other mother is a spider witch that eats children I took it real literal for what it was I'm like the kid watching the fucking movie right , yeah , and then people came over and they were talking to me while I was trying to watch this fucking movie and I was like shut up and I just kept pausing it and like annoyingly dart eyes , you know . Or when the commercial came on , because it's on Pluto right now . Shout out to Pluto , thank you . Thank you .

Speaker 2 8:55

We appreciate you . We need sponsors . Yo , yeah , I know Not a sponsor , but they could be . They could be . Should reach out to them .

Speaker 3 9:03

But yeah , I was like oh , this is a metaphor , this is how kids get kidnapped or stolen or or you know because , um , she goes to this other world . She goes to the other world twice and then nothing happened . Like , well , nothing , they don't do anything weird , they're just giving her everything she wants . Like , oh , your parents don't pay attention to you , we'll pay attention to you , we'll pay attention to you . Oh , there's shitty food . Well , you know , here's a feast , let's have cake for dinner . Oh , you're bored . The dad literally sang and danced .

Speaker 2 9:33

And made a song for you .

Speaker 3 9:34

Yeah , to entertain her . So like everything is looking good , right , and that's how they lure you in .

Speaker 2 9:48

And then on the third time , that's when she goes , that's when they're like all , right now , touch my penis . No , yeah , yeah , don't tell no one .

Speaker 3 9:52

You're my special , whatever . You're my special little friend .

Speaker 2 9:53

Now you know , take your clothes off , yeah no really , and you know , like I kind of didn't know where it was going until , like those , the ghost of the children came like those , the ghost of the children came and I was still kind of like , oh , she eats the children , type of a thing . Um , and it just I think that when people experience that type of trauma , there is like a death of who there were yeah , you know what I mean like you're never gonna be the same and yeah and I think when we reviewed speak , I think there was a portion of that where it was just like a lot of people one wish they were the person before .

Speaker 2 10:26

Yeah , and I understand that . I think that the end of that comment , from from what we reviewed , was you know it's , it's not about you're a new person now and and I think that's difficult and you can see it in little goat I don't know how they did it those little ghosts in this . Um , what's this claymation ?

Speaker 3 10:44

claymation yeah , it's tripping me out .

Speaker 2 10:46

I know it kind of cgi'd a little bit yeah , because it kind of looked like it .

Speaker 3 10:50

Maybe that part was a cartoon , maybe , yeah , and they like did it over the clay . I don't know how they did it , I don't know , but thank you , it looked great . Yeah , it looked creepy for sure , did yeah , and their faces were like sad , sad , well , sad and stuck , like they didn't change . So I was like they're trapped in this horrible moment forever .

Speaker 2 11:11

I know it gave me chills Because I didn't notice , I didn't realize . I'm telling you , I was watching and I was just like like a kid . I was watching and I was like , oh , she's a spider witch lady that's eating these kids . And now it's just so creative . Yeah , how she transformed she's ugly . She ripped out her eyes and now she's like very spider predatory .

Speaker 3 11:30

So , and I think that's a cool metaphor too . The eyes , I think we're gonna Like . Well , I'm gonna turn a blind eye , Like you know . I'm gonna pretend I don't see this , I'm gonna pretend I don't know this is happening . Yeah . Yeah happening .

Speaker 2 11:47

Yeah , yeah , and it's like it's the . What is it the training that the predators use to keep you under their control . The brainwashing yeah , you go . The brainwashing , so yeah , I get what you're saying . Yeah , I tripped out when you told me that . I was like , oh my god , the movie is not what it perceived to be .

Speaker 3 11:56

I know , and that's what they do like . They're like oh , if you still want , because like child molesters , they'll they'll take kids out to you to a theme park or to go get ice cream , or to go to the beach or the carnival or something fun , and it's like well , if you still want to keep doing all these fun things , you have to do this thing for me , right ? Which is the disgusting part .

Speaker 2 12:20

Absolutely . And I also kind of feel like for me , I wasn't raised this way . I got this thinking much later and sometimes I'm loose about it , sometimes a little bit tighter about it . But about gift giving , it's like I think in our culture gift giving is a means of cooking , cooking , and gift giving are a means of how to show love . Yeah , and it's like oh , I've seen this at the store and I thought of you , even though it's something I wouldn't use or wear . Yeah , you just got it for me because it's pink and you know I like pink . You know what I mean ? Yeah , um , and it's kind of like I don't know about your parents , but I know my parents were like all of this stuff I do for you , you're spoiled , so that's so that's what made me really rebellious .

Speaker 3 12:57

Well , is my mom in the room trigger ?

Speaker 2 13:01

you sound just like her , so I'm like you know . That's why I got a job so young , like I didn't want to burden my parents with that . I want to hear none of that . I didn't appreciate that . I think that gift giving should be for fun and for free and I don't think that you should ever say , well , I bought you this .

Speaker 2 13:17

You know , I think of like , why is this not being reciprocated in the exact same manner ? Or you're not meeting me halfway , um . So I'm always like a little bit like uneasy when it comes to give giving . That's a little better now , but it's this type of thinking yeah , it's . It's something that can be so easy to easily manipulate it , and I'm not . You know it's . It's kind of creepy how a lot of people still believe in that like it has to be reciprocated , but you have people like this that'll take it and make it really ugly and nasty that'll weaponize it and I think that's the scary part , it's a thin line between it caring and then being weaponized , and I

Speaker 3 13:55

think that's the scary part for me yeah , and I also think the attention giving or receiving attention from someone , yeah , that's like crack , like I think that's what everybody wants . Yeah , you know , it's just in our human nature . We want attention , we want someone to listen to , to talk to and stuff . Yeah , so if someone is giving you that and then you know it's very easy to to turn it into something sinister and you know , that's why I a thousand percent agree , especially when you have a person that is being robbed of that .

Speaker 2 14:25

Yeah , you have this , this character that is , it's being robbed of it and it's being given . And then you have people like even in today's day and age with social media , like people that rose to fame and then something racist or phobic or whatever you know comes to the surface and then all of that positive energy and attention they were getting is now turned over . There's a girl I don't even know her name , but she had like a total breakdown . I think she was like a youtuber , white girl , and it's sad seeing her like kind of deteriorate and now she's just like I don't care what anybody says about me and I'm just like she's doing dope .

Speaker 2 15:01

Oh , that sucks like her skin . Don't look good she looks like anxious and paranoid all the time . Um , and I think , yeah , for some people they really get . Once they get that attention , they make it their whole world and their meaning and then without it .

Speaker 2 15:14

It's kind of like I think they put too much um , care , what is it ? Too much value , value , yeah , in it . There's some people that can hang , though , like britney furlong . I didn't think she was gonna make it . She's married to that guy now from motley crue , the drummer , tommy lee yeah , not jones , but she used to be like a vine person and um , nothing backlash really on her . But , like , I think about people like her that that may manage to make it , especially if you're like white . Because I feel like with everything that's coming the , the , what's it ? Cancel culture , the rise of the poc yeah , it's like this is what they're talking about the double standard for them right yeah , so , but yeah , it's addicting .

Speaker 2 16:00

Look at all these people that . Look at the kardashians yeah , I hate the clan . Everything that I know about them is against my will . Yeah , me too , because they over promote and I'm always on tiktok like do not show , and they don't even have a button for that . Yeah , I'm blocking all of them and they still populate .

Speaker 3 16:15

Well , my sisters keep well . Yeah , I keep up with the kardashians , so they're always like filling me in and I'm just like I don't .

Speaker 2 16:22

I don't care kanye ruined kanye you know and people make jokes about , on every man that comes in .

Speaker 3 16:29

They ruin and they ruined bruce jenner rob , poor rob .

Speaker 2 16:33

He's related to them , he's been ruined . You know what I mean ? Yeah , poor dude and then that dude got played because of the whole kardashian shit , you know what I mean , um , and I feel bad for that girl . I was like that girl probably thinks rob got money , he got no money . They're all mooching off of the sisters and because they get all this cosmetic surgery , they're beautiful , they're rich . I think the glam is what's reaching people . People can relate to the dysfunctional family dynamic . And then they're all entranced by the fluff , and then they're all entranced by the fluff .

Speaker 3 17:05

I think it's interesting too that the other mother paid attention to Coraline's what she likes , what she doesn't like and then used it against her Left in line .

Speaker 2 17:21

The manipulation when I used to be more on edge . I'd be like when people would be . You're like this , am I ? You observing me , bitch ? And it's the gang mentality that I was raised with like watching your surroundings and it's just like noticing me , don't notice me , but yeah , I mean I . You don't feel a little bit uncomfortable when people notice things about you ?

Speaker 3 17:40

oh well , it's usually because I feel like usually they're wrong , like they'll . They'll say something , they'll be like oh , you seem like the kind of person that x , y and z , and I'm just like , really like what makes you think ?

Speaker 2 17:54

like that's not me and what do they ? What do they think that because you're , you're small in stature , because you're quiet initially , yeah , because I'm quiet .

Speaker 3 18:01

So I I recently I got promoted , but I'm . When I did the job interview , they were like oh , you would have to go around and talk to a lot of the other employees . And they're like oh well , we noticed that you tend to just stay at your desk and keep your head down .

Speaker 3 18:13

And they're like oh , like it's going to be a problem for you to go out and talk to people and I'm like no , Like I could talk to people , like I'm not scared to go talk to people . I just don't like anybody . I didn't say that . But I'm like well , I was like I'm come to work and I do my job , like isn't that a good thing ? Like dude .

Speaker 2 18:36

This is what I hate about the work culture . They want you to be friends with everyone yeah and I'm at a point that I'm gonna pass I hope I'm gonna pass probation on my new job , where it's like the gossip at the break time and so I'll indulge if I kind of relate . But I'm at a point now where it's like I'm just going to warm up my food and go eat outside and be on my phone for 30 minutes .

Speaker 2 18:56

Because that's what they want , and I feel like the more you indulge , the more you get involved . They had , like a work party . I did not go , which sucks , because some of them I do like , but then that's a slippery slope right there , yeah , and I think people have a real problem with it . Even if you're professional and nice and do a good job , they take it very personal that , like you , don't want to interact with other people and they don't know why ?

Speaker 2 19:18

yeah , you think it's because we work more than we spend with our families .

Speaker 3 19:23

Maybe but I just feel like it's forced , like because if , if I didn't work with you , why would I be in the same room with you ? Like I wouldn't . So I feel like they're forcing us to be like friends and stuff and I'm just like , yeah , why ? Yeah , there was a a scene that I really liked when the other father sings the song but the camera was like in the middle of the room and then it did like a circle of the whole room and I was like that's a cool shot Dude With this animation , I'm just like how , like this must be forever , fucking forever .

Speaker 2 19:58

So ultimately , you know , at the end , coraline ends up saving herself , her parents and saving even the ghost children . Right ? Did Coraline really win ? What do you like ? What would it like ? I don't know , was this a happy ending ? Obviously she made it out , so that's a good thing but I feel like her parents didn't even know .

Speaker 3 20:20

Obviously they didn't notice well , it seemed like remember .

Speaker 2 20:23

Yeah , they don't remember and I feel like that was a part of um , what do you call it , mom other mother's scheme , right ? Like you're gonna save your parents and they don't even fucking remember .

Speaker 2 20:37

Yeah , I'm gonna give a shit yeah she's the same , the only person who remembers you , and I found that very upsetting . So I was like , and , and caroline missed her parents and she knows , and I feel like I don't know she didn't really get a change of perspective . I don't know , because she's a kid . She was still annoyed by seeing Wyborn . Yeah , she was mean to him and I think it's because her parents were mean to her . Yeah , yeah , made me sad .

Speaker 3 21:05

So I feel like , did she really win ? Did she win ? Well , at the end they were all out gardening together and then the the house . In the beginning the house looked kind of like run down and stuff , and so at the end it looked nicer . So I took it to mean that like they were finally coming together as a family .

Speaker 3 21:25

Her perspective changed a little I should have been a little bit better but that does suck , like yeah , she went through all that trouble to save her parents and I didn't even think about that . They don't even remember .

Speaker 2 21:37

It made me mad yeah . Because I was looking forward to it . I was looking forward to this wrap up yeah , you know , like a happy ending . Yeah , who doesn't ? I was looking forward to it and then , just like it didn't happen and I felt so bad for her was like now she's just gonna go back and she's gonna have to make the best of this , but she's still not gonna have a pal to be friends with unless she makes the best , the best of . Why , born , what ?

Speaker 3 22:01

yeah , why I kind of took it that at the end they were because he seemed he , he knew , he knew about the other mother , because he was like oh right , the grandma , the grandma he was like , remember that doll I gave you ? Like can you give it back ?

Speaker 2 22:13

yeah , I also like the old people representation on here . The two old ladies , yeah , and so one of the old ladies , miss spink , is voiced by jennifer saunders and she's the voice of fairy godmother in the shrek too , so like jennifer saunders .

Speaker 2 22:30

This one's familiar and her voice is a little bit more like sharp in the shrek film . But and then the guy that plays cat keith david , I think he does a great job . I think he's always cast as a villain . I think the other movie that I've seen that he wasn't a villain was something about mary well , I don't think the cat is the villain , I don't .

Speaker 2 22:50

Yeah , that's why I think that actor plays a lot more of the villains um and the other . The only other movie that I'd seen that he wasn't like a villain was something about mary , so I appreciate it . The bechdel test okay , so what does this movie do on the bechdel test ?

Speaker 3 23:10

uh , so , it fails because there's not a lot of there's not a lot of male characters . You got the dad , which he's only in the scenes with the mom and Coraline , and you got Wyborn , and he's in the scenes with Coraline , and then in the other world he doesn't even talk . His mouth , he can't talk , his mouth is sewn closed , so it fails .

Speaker 2 23:36

So this film is considered certified fresh . It has 90 out of 272 reviews um audience score of more than 250 000 reviews . Ratings 74 . What do you think ?

Speaker 3 23:53

I really like this movie . I think it's a fun . I watch it around halloween . You could watch it with your kids , you could watch it alone . It's scary , I think at the when , um , she's fighting the other mother , and there was a part where she's like in the spider web , yeah , yeah , and then it it kind of it turned like black and white . Oh yeah , that was another thing too .

Speaker 2 24:13

I was like how the fuck this is ? It has to be claymation and digital . There's just no way that was cool .

Speaker 3 24:21

I like it . I think 10 out of 10 it was a good movie .

Speaker 2 24:24

I'm not gonna lie . I just give it an 8 out of 10 because I feel that the ending . I'm so sad for the ending and also this movie was creepy , it was creepy it is . I'm glad that it's a kids movie because it's not too creepy like it is it is . Yeah , it's good it's . I'm glad that it's a kids movie because it's not too creepy , but it is . After this discussion I realized how thought-provoking this shit is and I think it's good movie to like educate your kid with yeah , almost you know , try to break it down to them in their terms .

Speaker 3 24:50

So I like it . And then I'm trying to think how you said that her parents don't remember . Going back to this child molester metaphor that maybe parents like Denial yeah , the denial .

Speaker 2 25:05

Yeah , so it all comes back together in that theory .

Guillermo del Toro's Pinocchio Overview

Speaker 2 25:10

Yeah , gross . Next up for review Guillermo del Toro's Pinocchio .

Speaker 3 25:16

A father's wish magically brings a wooden boy to life in Italy , giving him a chance to care for the child . However , the two of them have to struggle to find a place for themselves as Italy becomes embroiled in fascism .

Speaker 2 25:31

This movie is rated PG . Its genre is musical fantasy animation . It's directed by Guillermo del Toro and Mark Gustafson . Sorry . So , guillermo del Toro , you guys might know him . I mean , he's done so much . He's done so much . Most recently I think he did the Shape of Water . He's done Crimson Peak . I don't know that . He wrote for the Hobbit series . Oh , I didn't know that . Yeah , he wrote the Hobbit , the Battle of the Five Armies , the Hobbit , the Desolation of Smaug , pacific Rim . He directed , wrote and produced that one . Did you like that one ? I like that movie . People hate on it . I need to watch it . That's what I remember . I remember a lot of people shitting on it . And then I asked the guys I was like , did you guys like that movie ? Without telling them she was like pacific rim . Yeah , oh , great , um . And then he also wrote the hobbit and unexpected dream . I had no idea , I didn't know he did all that did you watch splice ?

Speaker 3 26:31

yeah , did he make that movie , he produced it . Oh okay , that movie's weird .

Speaker 2 26:36

Yeah , I was like . This sounds familiar and I remember not being like . Which one was that ? One that's not about the , it's like tooth pussy . The one , the one that has the tooth in her pussy ?

Speaker 3 26:44

no , it's not her it's like these two scientists and they create this like creature , like human creature type thing , and it's like a girl and they raise it and then it's like it turns . It turns violent , it grows . It's just weird , weird yeah , I believe that .

Speaker 2 27:05

Uh , hellboy 2 , the army , the golden army he wrote and directed that pan's labyrinth , pan's labyrinth , that's a good one . Hellboy , hellboy and one of your girls fan favorite , blade 2 dude . When Blade 1 came out , I was like this is good . And then Blade 2 came out , I was like the budget is in . The budget is in . It's one of my favorite sequels .

Del Toro's Creative History and Style

Speaker 2 27:30

If you know me , you know I love sequels , the good ones . Anyway , this movie was also written by hierro de toro and patrick mckale . Patrick mckale is , uh , no , I'm sorry . Yeah , patrick mckale . Um , he also did tome of the unknown . I don't know if you know that one . And then he wrote black ford manor . Can I watch that one ? The other director , mark Gustafson , also did Fantastic Mr Fox . He was the animation director for that one . Cool , so we have a great cast . We have Ewan McGregor Is that how you say it ? No , how do you say it Ewan ? What the fuck E makes the E sound sound a , u , a , u in as cricket .

Speaker 2 28:25

I had no idea . Is he , he's british or he's got ? It was the irish . Which one's the one with the new alphabet ?

Speaker 3 28:34

he's something uh british .

Speaker 2 28:36

I don't know what he is , I think it's the irish that have a whole different alphabet than us . That he's from somewhere yeah , david . Moving on , david bradley as geppetto he's from .

Speaker 3 28:48

Uh , harry potter . Who was he ? Uh , the groundskeeper filch . Oh , this is true with the cat , yeah .

Speaker 2 28:57

Good catch . We got Gregory Mann as Pinocchio this little boy , yeah . Finn Wolfhard as Candlewick oh , that's the dude from Stranger Things . Yeah , christoph Waltz as Count Volpe Volpe I don't know Tilda Swinton Holtz as Count Volpe Volpe I don't know Volpe , I don't know if that means English language . Tilda Swinton as Wood Sprite , slash Death . She has two , she has two characters here . I hate , I love to hate Tilda Swinton , because I can only wish she brings something to her table , just to the table , just because she looks different . And I'm like , if only I was like a feet taller , I think I could . I could also pull that off .

Speaker 2 29:45

And you have mr ron perlman as podesta , so , and then we also have kate blanchett as spazatura which I just wanted to say I watched the 30 minute doc after this and she was saying that she wanted to work with Guillermo . So bad that she was like I'll be a pencil and that's why she plays the monkey Cause I was like Kate Blanchett , kate Blanchett as the monkey . I was like Googling it over and over again because I could not believe it . I was like they must be talking about death , like she has to be the voice of death .

Speaker 2 30:14

I couldn't believe it , but that's her y'all . That's cool . Yeah , I feel like you've watched a few more of his movies than I have . How would you compare his movies to this one ? I feel like it transcends . He totally has like a , but you tell me . Well , I feel like he has personal style .

Speaker 3 30:34

Absolutely , he has his own . He has . So I was expecting more of his originality , creativity . But then this was more based off of the children's book from like 1910s I don't know what year yeah , so he was trying to make that Art style Come to 3D life . And stuff . Which I'm like okay , you want to pay respects to the original animation , but I wasn't feeling it .

Speaker 2 31:08

Yeah , I'm not a fan of Older art , I guess .

Speaker 3 31:11

European art .

Speaker 2 31:12

I'm not a huge fan of European art , to be honest , but I watched that little doc that they they did after it and he said that he actually got influenced , at least for like the town to be . I think he said London , some other place and Guadalajara , but that didn't transcend in the characters . I feel , like the characters were very much like European like was it ? Italian and I think .

Speaker 3 31:36

English and I didn't like it I just I didn't feel like they . They , they weren't aesthetically pleasing . The only characters I liked was the wood , sprite and death .

Speaker 2 31:46

Like they looked cool , oh my god they looked bad yeah and I liked , I liked real , particularly that they don't move their lips and they kind of glow yeah , it kind of reminds me .

Speaker 2 31:57

You ever see that that photo , like on social media ? They're like this is what the description of the angels when they came to earth in the bible , like this is what the description was when they look like , and they drew a doodle of it and it was basically like all of these angel wings , or wings with eyes , a bunch of eyes . Have you ever seen that ? I have not . When it comes up again because my phone is near me it'll come up phone populate again , I'll send it to you .

Speaker 2 32:21

But that's the impression that I got , um , when I seen them , because they both had like these really big especially um , what is it ? Wood sprite . She had a bunch of feathers , yeah , and then death .

Speaker 3 32:36

She had like she's like a sphinx like , yeah , because she was like a lion , but then she had like a tail , yeah , and then I think she had horns too yeah , and then they were saying that , um , they mimicked her tail to be the pine cone oh , the little to give it like a callback , yeah , and I was like that , like that was nice of them , but I liked it , the blue and the glowiness of it .

Speaker 2 32:59

I was like I don't know how the fuck you guys did this , but it's working . It's working . Yeah , it looks cool . It did I like that . That was like the only detail . And then the water . I was like how did you guys do this ? Yeah , I wasn't into Like Geppetto .

Speaker 3 33:15

I didn't like the way he looked . I didn't like any of the characters . What about Cricket ?

Speaker 2 33:25

No .

Speaker 3 33:25

I didn't , I wasn't feeling it . I liked it . I was looking at it and I was like would I be any of these characters for Halloween ? No , that's Bree's ranking system .

Speaker 2 33:34

None of these are inspiring Halloween costumes costumes and so what does it take to be on that in that ? What , what , what marks do you have to hit to that ? Because to me I was like it's blue .

Speaker 3 33:42

He looked velvety , I like velvet it's just , I don't know , nothing interesting , nothing interesting yeah , nothing memorable nothing iconic , nothing yeah I guess I don't .

Speaker 2 33:57

I didn't really care much for that voice actor . I'm not gonna say , try to say his name again , mr mcgregor , you didn't like him . No , I think I don't . I don't care for him . Like I know that he's , I know that he's done a lot of things , I know that a lot of people like him , but like I think I must not have watched his shit and I . That's why I just don't know him , because I'm trying to think what else has I seen him in star wars ? It's obi-wan . Oh my god , you're right . My boyfriend was like you don't care for him and then he just went on this whole thing about star wars and I was like I have no idea what the fuck you're talking about .

Speaker 3 34:30

But you're right , you're right he was a star , so that's why he's a fan favorite . That's why you didn't see that . Well , he's in that musical with um , oh , what is ? It called . It's not the producers right . No this is gonna drive me crazy . It's on the tip of my tongue Moulin Rouge , moulin Rouge . That one .

Speaker 2 35:01

I think I seen that one a long time ago and I didn't care for it . I also seen Big Fish as a kid when I came out , and I still didn't get it came out in Robots , angels and Demons . Oh my god , he's been in so many Star Wars movies . Yeah , this is why I don't know . Down with Love . I think I've seen that one . I was like he sucks . I've never seen it . It's a 2003 rom-com , so you know it sucked Because not all of them are good .

Speaker 2 35:23

There's very few that are good . Remember that movie , the Men who Stare at Ghosts ?

Speaker 3 35:28

Yeah , so , in my eyes because I'm not a Star Wars fan these are all the movies . Those are all the movies that I know . This man from mordecai that was not a good movie .

Speaker 2 35:41

He's in a gay movie . He shows his wiener . Okay , which one ? I'll watch it . Oh , august of osage county , that's that's one that I've been wanting to watch . I think that's like a mom-daughter movie , so I'll be willing to watch it , so he shows his wiener in a lot of movies . He's like constantly naked the europeans girl , I know the european they do . They do nudity in a whole different game than we do . But , um , okay , so you didn't like that .

Speaker 2 36:05

You didn't like that , oh , I'm sorry I was thinking about the cricket I looked at cricket , I looked at his uh as cricket , and then I thought about how you didn't like the outfit and I felt bad because I didn't really care for how Pinocchio was made . Yeah , and they were just going on and on about how proud they were of this work and I just felt so bad .

Speaker 3 36:22

Well , I thought it was interesting I don't know if this was more in line with the children's book but how Geppetto

Claymation Techniques and Artistic Choices

Speaker 3 36:30

gets drunk and he makes this puppet and he's grieving . Oh , that was another thing . So in the beginning I'm like , why is this old ass man have a little kid ? Yeah , and I was . And then , I don't know why , my twisted brain . I was like where's the mom ? I was like , well , he probably murdered the mom because she was so young and he's so old ?

Speaker 2 36:55

no , seriously , like it was a different time . As they say , yeah , um . But they were saying also that the reason why he looks like unstable and like imperfect um pinocchio is because jipero made him while he was drunk , and that made sense to me . It makes sense story-wise like I can't hate on that yeah , like we're just so used to everything being aesthetically pleasing .

Speaker 2 37:15

Yeah , that now when we get and he's known for that yeah , like we're just so used to everything being aesthetically pleasing yeah that now , when we get and he's known for that right like no , things aren't always because they're not , you know , and um , so I get that , um , but I don't know .

Speaker 3 37:30

And then it was like I was watching it and I'm like what the hell ? This story is weird , it's going everywhere .

Speaker 2 37:35

Right , it was good , I was waiting for the donkeys .

Speaker 3 37:38

Oh yeah , I was waiting to close my eyes for the donkey , yeah , but I was like what the hell ? And I'm like , is this world war ii ? And then I saw the guys with the things on their arm . I was like , are these nazis ?

Speaker 2 37:49

yes , I was like what is happening ? So I'm not a history buff . So my boyfriend was beside me telling me like , pausing it , and telling me all this history stuff so I could get a better idea . Um , but I too was like , okay , this is a time period movie , which is not always my favorite this time period movie in Europe also not a favorite but I'm not a fan of Pinocchio anyway because watching the animation as a kid like it was scary , like all the kids being as donkeys .

Speaker 2 38:18

There were no catchy , cute songs which every little girl would want and the disney one .

Speaker 3 38:23

Yeah , you don't like the . I got no strings to hold me down got no strings on me . I probably just felt creeped out too that this was a talking wood boy probably and I think the song the like in the beginning when they make a wish with the fairy . That's like the like if you go to disneyland , like they're playing that song everywhere .

Speaker 2 38:46

Yeah I mean , I haven't been there forever . I'm not I'm not a disney theme park fan . It's been a while , though it's probably gotten better , from what I see on the internet oh , it looks like it got more crowded oh , I know , but the food , though the food looks bomb yeah this just needs to be like a food drive-thru .

Speaker 2 39:03

Yeah , you know , um , but yeah , I selected this film because I wanted to do something the del toro , you know , do something and see his interpretation about it , because I'm open to that . You know , getting someone else doing a reboot or their own interpretation and what better person to do it than him ? This movie was 15 years in the making . Why did it take so long ? I'm assuming because of all the details . And then they said that they didn't like I think he said Cricket , the original , I think he said that one . He was like I fucking hate it , and so they had to restart it .

Speaker 2 39:44

And also for this type of artwork , you know , like the church was probably like the size of a small room , like it was real , like it wasn't miniatures Because I know sometimes they do miniatures , especially for explosions , yeah , so they made it a little bit bigger . And then they had different sizes of Pinocchio . They had a mini , they had a big , really big one , so that way , when they do the shots with him and Cricket . So there was like a lot of work that went into this and so many people that were involved . I was like God damn it . And you know , with stuff like that you get a lot of trial and errors and it's not digital . Yeah , so it made sense to me . I'm assuming that that's all that . That it was . That it was just all the acclamation I was like I love play-doh but not like this .

Speaker 2 40:28

Not like this .

Speaker 3 40:28

Anything's boring when you make it into work yeah um well , so he also did the movie Scary Stories to Tell in the Dark .

Speaker 2 40:38

Oh yes , Did you enjoy that ?

Speaker 3 40:40

I did enjoy that and so that one he did stay really true to the artwork . Oh , and I was a fan of those books , the Scary Story books . So when I saw that he stayed really true to that artwork and it came out on screen , like I was super excited and I'm like , oh , I was like that's so cool that he didn't put his own personal spin , like he just kind of kept it , kept it . But then when I'm watching pinocchio I'm like how old is this children's book ? Like who really cares about this artwork ? Like who was like begging for this book to come to life ?

Speaker 2 41:21

like , yeah , I don't know , if you , if you're a fan of this , like european older artwork , please let us know , because I don't know not one person that does . Yeah , and I remember being a kid and like reading books and they were all like in a similar artwork , like and I didn't like , just that . I mean , I'm a kid , I would read picture books . It immediately turned me away .

Speaker 3 41:43

But , um , there I noticed a lot of um , religious references really . So you know well , of course they're in the church because geppetto is making the , the , um , the crucifix , and then , um , there was a scene later where pinocchio is uh , who was it ? Uh , count , count , volp .

Speaker 2 42:08

He has him tied up on like a cross and he's like pinocchio is in the the jesus position yeah , that made me uncomfortable , but he brought up a good point too , like why do they hate me and they like love this figure ? It really ? They really did a good job of emphasizing just his innocence and excitement little annoying for

Pinocchio's Story and Religious References

Speaker 2 42:30

everyone .

Speaker 3 42:30

I guess oh and it's so funny because I never got the whole nose metaphor until this movie when he was like when you lie , everyone can see it . It's as plain as the nose on your face and that's why your nose grows .

Speaker 2 42:45

And I was like , oh , I mean , I knew that your nose grows when you lie , but I didn't know it's because you couldn't see it , and but everyone everyone else can .

Speaker 3 42:53

Yeah , missing element that I didn't know . Yeah , so I was like , oh , it all makes sense now .

Speaker 2 42:58

I don't like to lie because I can't keep up with the lies there's too many lies .

Speaker 3 43:03

I'm like I'm not going to remember this just leave it alone or say the truth this movie is about being a father or being a son yeah , when I was watching the little doc after .

Speaker 2 43:16

So that's what Guillermo was saying . He was like this movie , which I thought it was about Pinocchio , and like I thought it was going to be like the first one , right . Yeah .

Speaker 2 43:23

It's like kind of like Coraline , where it's like the predatory Watch out for the predators ? Right , I had no , like . I don't know if the original talks about the dad being in grief and that's why he has a little boy . You know what I mean ? Yeah but it made sense to me and that it was richer in storyline . Um , he also said to himself that most of the movies are about him and his father , so then I started thinking about Blade 2 , girl and I was like Blade 2 ?

Speaker 2 44:01

And then I was like I haven't seen Pan's Labyrinth , and that touched me Because I feel like it takes a certain amount of awareness and not have pride to admit that that your work revolves around the relationship of you and your father and , being a mexican man , it's so taboo to talk about yeah so then I started daydreaming about all these things about guillermo , like if I knew him , about his with his macho father .

Speaker 2 44:30

You know , his father probably believes that his job isn't a real job . Yeah , the arts , yeah , you know , his father probably never believed in him . I'm just thinking about all these macho things and how now my eyes are open and how he relates to being an outsider , like being frankincense , and I was like maybe his dad was mean to him because he's a heavyset guy and you know , a lot of fathers think that if you're not doing what is it manual labor ? Yeah , that you're doing shit . You know , being at a desk is a woman's job . Yeah , you know . And here he is doing neither . This dude's making the arts , making millions and it's like . And if his dad's a macho man , he probably never apologized .

Speaker 3 45:09

Yeah he's probably still like doing shit .

Speaker 2 45:13

Yeah , like when are you gonna get a real job ? He's probably looking at his homie son and he's like his son works in construction . That's a real , yeah , that it doesn't matter . You ain't shit , it doesn't matter what you accomplish , like your parents views .

Speaker 2 45:25

They're gonna be comparing like all their other kids . So that's where my mind went . I went to a whole level of like um , personalization with this , and I think that when it's a different type of relationship , like take Taylor Swift , for example , if she does or doesn't write about All her past loves and she was like well , a lot of people do .

Speaker 2 45:45

A lot of people have for eons , you know , all over through culture and time , and she's the one getting the bad rep for it , right , and it's like but then you have this person that's saying it and I don't feel like it's being praised . I don't think his statement is being praised , I don't think it's being put down , I don't even think it's being acknowledged and it bothers me .

Speaker 3 46:04

I want everyone to know that he gets kudos for being sensitive and putting it in his art because other people they don't pay attention to it or I'm sorry that they , like judge it as a negative thing and I appreciated it yeah , I , I got the message , but it was like um , you can't force your children to be something like , because he was trying to force pinocchio to be his , his uh , like his dead son , yeah , and then at the end he was just like you don't have to be him , you can just be yourself .

Speaker 2 46:38

Yeah , and so they all came around . You know so , and it was nice . I love the ending . He outlived everybody and that's that's the message that I gave to me , Like it's also about being a son .

Speaker 3 46:49

Well , that was like kind of weird , because I was like is he going to live forever ? Because then he was like , oh , oh , because the death tells him like , oh well , if you go back right now you'll , you'll be mortal , right , but then he outlived everyone . So I'm like , well , if he's mortal , does he die ? Like what's happening ?

Speaker 2 47:09

I think that they just meant like you get one more life and then , if you die again , like I think that's it yeah , I think that's what I interpreted out of it , considering that he outlived everyone .

Speaker 3 47:18

Well , I mean , of course , His dad was like 100 .

Speaker 2 47:21

Seriously , like he probably outlived him in like one more year , this dude Everyone out here is talking shit that they don't have grandkids . This dude is just worried about his one kid . He was like a what , like an 80-year-old son , I don't know like father like , and he's not relieved . He still wants you , want your school-aged son back . Yeah , yeah , right what about ?

Speaker 3 47:43

did you notice any new details in comparison to other pinocchio movies ?

Speaker 2 47:50

um , the only thing that I noticed here here is like oh you know , they're showing his because I didn't re-watch the first one . Because I didn't rewatch the first one , I mean the animation , right . The . Disney animation because I didn't like it and I was afraid . I was afraid , but I don't remember the animation or even hearing in the original story that the father , Jepero , lost his son in griefs and he was an alcoholic .

Speaker 3 48:12

No , they don't say that in Disney . Oh yeah , that's true .

Speaker 2 48:26

Or like in the other stories of pinocchio . Like whenever people talk about pinocchio , they just talk about the wooden boy that came to life and he goes to that carnival thing and kidnapped and enslaved yeah , and then if he lies ?

Speaker 2 48:32

his nose grows , then you have cricket . That's helping him . That's all that I really remember . And that fairy that comes out in the animation really reminds me of the mexican photo of the angel looking over the two children . Yeah , so as a mexican being raised catholic as a child , I just kind of felt like , okay , you got an angel . That's like granting wishes and then like , if you misbehave or whatever , you could get kidnapped , turn into a donkey . You may or may not talk as a donkey . Like that's the scary , scariest part . Like as a kid , you know , um , how are people gonna know it's pee donkey ? No , um , so there was that , um , he died . Pinocchio can die and come back and it's longer each time and I like that . There's a wood sprite and death and I like those were the only ones that I noticed and that I liked , and then he doesn't come back as a like human with flesh .

Speaker 3 49:28

He stays wooden the whole time .

Speaker 2 49:29

Yeah ,

Themes of Fatherhood and Acceptance

Speaker 2 49:31

it's very like , kind of reminded me of , like , the robot movies , where it's kind of like oh , yeah , you're not human , but now you have emotion . But you robot movies where it's kind of like oh yeah , you're not human , but now you have emotion but you're not .

Speaker 3 49:40

So I was kind of like where is this ?

Speaker 2 49:41

going .

Speaker 3 49:43

I don't know . I was kind of I was confused for a lot of the movie . I was like I don't know what to make of this . What is the war ? How does the war fit into all this ? I ?

Speaker 2 49:52

think this , because they were . Everyone wanted something from him because of his immortality right .

Speaker 3 49:57

Yeah .

Speaker 2 49:59

Everyone was trying to use him , so that was another thing , right , mm-hmm ? Do you remember what time the last Pinocchio was set in ?

Speaker 3 50:06

No .

Speaker 2 50:07

Me neither girl . I don't know , but I felt like that was a necessary detail . Mm-hmm . The Bechdel Test . What does this get ?

Speaker 3 50:21

on the Bechdel test oh so this movie fails .

Speaker 2 50:24

There's no women , oh yeah , With Sprite and Death . They're not women . They're not .

Speaker 3 50:29

I mean they're spirits or whatever you want to call them . Ungendered yeah , but there's like no women in the movie . Not really .

Speaker 2 50:38

You're 100% right , kate Blanch 100 , right , you don't make the cut . Yeah , she's a monkey , so that makes sense . So it fails . This movie has gotten . This movie was released . When does it say ? I think it just came out . I said that it was released in theaters november 9th 2002 . I remember it being in theaters . Did you remember that ? No way it says limited . I didn't remember that . And then you have release date streaming December 9th 2022 . Hmm , and distributor Netflix . Mm-hmm .

Speaker 2 51:11

Which I didn't even know . Netflix was distributing shit on the screen . What the fuck , mm-hmm . So the Tomatometer rates this out of 267 reviews , certified fresh is 97 . The audience score of over 2 500 ratings gives this 91 generally . What ?

Speaker 3 51:32

do you rate this honestly ? I was . I gave it a two . I gave it a 2 . A 2 ? I gave it a 2 . I'm sorry .

Speaker 2 51:40

There was nothing that you liked about this movie at all .

Speaker 3 51:43

I found it boring . I didn't like the way it looked . The songs were not entertaining . Yeah , the songs were weak . I just really didn't understand it . I didn't understand the movie . I don't know . I don't know , maybe I'm dumb . I didn't understand it . I didn't understand the movie . I don't know , maybe I'm dumb . I didn't get it , not even .

Speaker 2 52:03

It was long , it was two hours . You know it's tricky when you make two hour long movies you have to really ask yourself or you should be asking yourself does it need to be two hours long ? And I feel bad that this was 15 years in the making to be two hours long and I feel bad that this was 15 years in the making to be two hours long . And I mean I give it a five out of 10 because I do like the new interpretation of it versus the animation that I that I watched that .

Speaker 2 52:28

I didn't even dare to watch again .

Final Ratings and Overall Impressions

Speaker 2 52:30

I like the new stuff , the new details . He dies and comes back Wood Sprite and sister death . I kind of like that he teaches a lesson to candlewick like to stand up for himself and that he stands up for um , what do you call it ? Spazatura ? Because he didn't have to do that . He heard that , he overheard something . I don't know why . They told him like you know they're not giving your dad shit yeah um , and so there was that um .

Speaker 2 53:02

But I also feel like this movie didn't have to be two hours long and I like the ending that he came back and he changed . They all kind of like appreciated each other , um , and I have respect for it being this long , how long it took them , like just watching it , just it gave me a new appreciation for it .

Speaker 3 53:21

I don't know . I just feel like Guillermo del Toro is so hot right now and I feel like people are just up his ass and they're like , yeah , everything he does is great and I love it , it's gold yeah . Yeah , and I'm just , I don't know .

Speaker 2 53:38

I don't know , I don't think this was this , wasn't it ? No , it's not his best uh movie out there and you know , I don't know if he really cared for the storyline pinocchio or they really wanted him to do it , but pinocchio's not the way to go . Yeah , I think he could have done so much , but doing um , maybe another story and doing a reboot of it , because I feel like this is kind of like a reboot he gave his own interpretation yeah , I don't don't know .

Speaker 3 53:58

If someone was watching it I'd walk out . I was like , oh my God .

Speaker 2 54:02

That's fair . Good thing you didn't spend the bucks at the theater .

Speaker 3 54:04

Yeah , yeah , good thing it's on Netflix , because ugh Sorry .