Authenticity Road
Adventures in men's work. The search for personal authenticity, emotional healing, and the meaning of modern masculinity. Authenticity Road follows our adventures through the world of men's work, as we uncover the many layers of self-discovery. #menswork #menshealth #mensmentalhealth
Authenticity Road
Episode 3.20: GBTQ Retreats with Cator Sparks & Mike Sagun
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Imagine a sanctuary where emotional connection and vulnerability take center stage, specifically designed for GBTQ men. That's what Cator Sparks and Mike Sagun bring to life with their transformative retreats. Our episode explores how these inclusive spaces contrast with traditional, often heteronormative, men's gatherings, allowing participants to embrace their authentic selves without fear or judgment. Cator and Mike, both certified coaches and leaders in men’s work, share powerful stories of transformation and healing that stem from these retreats, revealing the profound impact they have on attendees.
Join us as we navigate the dynamics of emotional intimacy within queer spaces, emphasizing the critical importance of clear boundaries and the integration of somatic practices. These retreats foster a healthy expression of male intimacy, teaching emotional regulation and authenticity through powerful, embodied practices. By sharing personal reflections on the nuances of male bonding, we highlight how such spaces can transcend the traditional norms of masculinity, offering tools for personal growth that extend beyond the confines of the retreat.
The magic of Easton Mountain, a cherished queer-owned sanctuary, is a cornerstone of our discussion. We uncover how this space not only serves as a retreat venue but also as a symbol of healing and joy for the queer community. This episode promises insights into the world of GBTQ retreats, celebrating the community, personal growth, and emotional leadership they cultivate. Whether you're seeking connection, healing, or simply a deeper understanding of modern masculinity, Cator and Mike's experiences offer a compelling look into the powerful potential of these remarkable gatherings.
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Creating Safe Spaces for Queer Men
Speaker 1Imagine yourself in a room full of men, mostly strangers, maybe one or two familiar faces. You want to let your guard down, but there's a question in your mind Is this space truly safe? For so many of us, finding a place where we can be vulnerable without fear is incredibly difficult. Society has taught us to keep our emotions in check, to stay guarded and to never show weakness. For gay, bi, trans and queer men, this challenge is even greater with fewer places where they can truly feel safe among other men. But what if there was a space where those rules didn't apply, where letting down your guard wasn't just allowed, it was encouraged?
Speaker 1In this episode, I'll be speaking with Cater Sparks and Mike Sagoon. These men are leading the charge with retreats that create safe spaces where GBTQ men can be seen, heard and accepted without judgment. Imagine a place where every man is encouraged to be vulnerable, where connection happens without fear or pretense. If you've ever felt that, longing for a place where you can genuinely feel safe to be yourself, this episode is for you. What makes these retreats so powerful? Why do men keep coming back for more? Mike and Kater are here to break it all down for you. So let's get on the road. Welcome to the Authenticity Road podcast.
Speaker 2We started this podcast to share our stories and hear from others about their adventures in men's work.
Speaker 1Join us on the journey to our fully authentic selves, emotional healing and the meaning of modern masculinity here on Authenticity Road. Hello, hello, hello and welcome to the Authenticity Road podcast. I am Ator and this week on the podcast, I am beyond delighted to have with me two of my favorite people on the planet, mike Sagoon and Kater Sparks. On the planet, mike Sagoon and Cater Sparks. Cater and Mike are the founders and leaders of the GBTQ retreat that you will find at gbtqretreatsorg. It is, as far as I know, the only real men's work retreat that does the work the way that we guys do it. Um, but we'll get into that as we as we get closer, uh, as we get further into the show. Uh, just really quickly.
Speaker 1So, for those of you who have listened before, you are familiar with cater. Cater is a men's coach and facilitator, uh, who is well known for his work with queer identified men. Mike Sagoon is also a men's coach and facilitator, as well as a leader of multiple retreats, and has also been a previous guest on the podcast. So, guys, I'm just going to toss it over to you and let you introduce yourselves and give out any pertinent information that I have left out in my intro anything that you want folks to know about you, cater, why don't we start with you?
Speaker 3Thanks, ator, it's so good to be with you again.
Speaker 3And yeah, so Cater Sparks here. I'm calling from Charleston, south Carolina, but I'm moving on November 8th to Atlanta, georgia, and I cannot wait to talk about a queer city, a thriving queer city, so cannot wait to be back in the mix. I was born and raised there, so it's great to come home. And, yeah, so I've been doing this for about six years and I love this work. It's really profound and it's even better when you get to work with other people you love, like you and Mike, so I'm thrilled to be here.
Speaker 1Awesome. Hey, Mike, how about you?
Speaker 2Hi, I'm Lexi Goon. I am a certified professional co-active coach, just like Cater is. We both went to the same coaching school co-active coaching. I'm also a somatic experiencing practitioner Um and um. I work primarily with men. Um, and the work that I do with men often deals with trauma and stress and overwhelm. Um and although I am queer identified, gay identified, I work with both queer and straight men and I've worked with organizations like Everyman that's how I know these guys and then also MELD, men's Emotional Leadership Development.
Speaker 1Awesome, thanks for that. So in the for full disclosure, so that this is not a surprise to anyone listening, I have actually facilitated with these guys at their most recent GBTQ retreat. So when I say, if I say we or when this happened, or I make reference to something, you'll know that, uh, I was there and I was a part of the team and thrilled thrilled to be that um and you will continue the team and I will continue to be part of the team.
Speaker 1Yay, um and and again in full disclosure. Part of the reason that I was really excited to have these guys come on the show and to share their experience and their vision and all of that, is that we have another one planned for 2025. And as well attended as the 2024 one was. We would love to see even more queer identified men have access to this kind of in-person experience doing this kind of work up and excited not just to be a part of the their team, but also to share this with all of you guys out there listening. So I think one of the places I would love to start is because this is something that I don't even know, even having been part of the team, is how this all started. Like, how did you guys decide to do this to start?
Speaker 3Mike, you want to kick it off?
Speaker 2Sure, yeah, I mean. I think the reality is and Ettore and Cater, you guys know this through experiences that in the years that the three of us have been facilitating work like this, we tend to be one of a few, if not the only, openly gay and queer men in these spaces. And we would have retreats all over the United States, from the West Coast to the East Coast, that sometimes would have 40 to 65, 70 guys and we would be one of a few queer men that were openly gay. And it's the unfortunate reality that many men's workspaces are primarily occupied by cisgendered straight men, which I'm I love because all men need this space. But it creates a different dynamic for queer men because for many of us queer men, cisgendered straight men were our bullies growing up, and so, although that can bring up a huge piece of work during a retreat, which I think can be really powerful for queer men but also be powerful for straight men, I've seen it.
Speaker 2I've seen it firsthand, how powerful that dynamic can be. It also makes it less accessible for queer men who don't have the capacity to be in a space like that yet, who don't have the capacity or the courage or the bravery to be in a mostly straight space, and so Kater and I made it our mission to create more spaces for queer identified men to be at retreats. That has nothing to do with sex or kink or drinking or partying. That has primarily everything to do with emotional healing and somatic healing and we'll talk about somatics in a bit but primarily a space focus on our healing as individuals and also as queer men with other queer men. Yeah, definitely, well said.
Speaker 1Yeah, definitely well said, thanks.
Speaker 3I think you've been practicing.
Speaker 1Cater anything you would add to that.
Speaker 3Yeah, no. I think what Mike said at the end was what really I wanted to share too is so many men come up to me and say, hey, is there sex, is there plant medicine, is there alcohol, is there nudity? And I'm like nope, nope, nope, nope, nope and they're like oh, or they're like oh, thank God, you know, because guys, so many retreats are plant medicine based or there's some kink and sex in there, which is great if that's where you're at. But we really do want to do some deep healing and go inside, you know, go go into you where you can connect to yourself and connect to these other men in a really organic way, because gay men, surprise, so much is surrounded about, about sex and so to have a place where we can turn that off and there's no sexual weird energy and does he like me and does he go sleep with him or me? Nope, it's all about like we're all all healing together and I think that's been a really powerful part of our, of our process yeah, and I think part of, I think, any.
Speaker 2Any men's healing um and so this goes for all you straight guys that are listening to this too is is non-sexual intimacy and non-sexual affection and non-sexual affection and how sharing that kind of energy between or with you and another man is really powerful and healing um. And it also, you know, when we, when we remove the sex out of a space like that just like what cater is saying there is just no pressure and there is no thoughts of like is this person coming on to me? Rather, it's just a space of. This is actually a non-sexual platonic intimacy touch.
Speaker 1Yeah, definitely, and I'm glad you kind of brought this up. I was actually going to get there later, but I'm glad we're doing it now Because one of the questions I was going to ask you was you know what are some of the misconceptions that people gay and straight might have about a gay men's retreat? And to me, I think that one of the primary misconceptions was going to be was that it was a weekend sex party. You know that it was going to be sort of a non and it's important to get the understanding out there for everyone, but especially the guys who are considering gay guys who might be considering joining something like this, that it's not going to be pressurized, there's not going to be an expectation, because probably giving away too much of myself here, but so for some gay guys, the promise of a weekend of nonstop sex would be a plus.
Speaker 1For some guys like me, the promise of a weekend of nonstop sex would be get me as far the hell away from there as you possibly can. I don't want anything to do with that, not because I'm not sex positive, but because there's so much pain and sadness and anger and grief wrapped up in my relationship to how do I approach sex with men that I've never met before, right, and so you know that soul-killing thing that happens when, when I go out cruising, or I should say when I used to go out cruising I've been married, for you know, we've been together for 28 years but, um, you know, I remember that feeling, that soul killing feeling of I'm not attractive, I'm not good enough, you're not going to want me.
Navigating Emotional Connection in Queer Spaces
Speaker 1Do you want me, do I want you? What, what's this going to be, how? Who's going to take the? You know who's going to be active, Right, and and just, can we just not do that for 72 hours? Um, I kinda I kinda went a little, a little sort of off the beaten path there, but I think you know what I'm getting at. And, um, I think it's important for guys to understand that if you come to this, you're coming to commit to doing a weekend of your personal work and that sex is not going to be part of the equation, unless sex is part of your work, in which case you're going to deal with that, you're going to look at that, but you're not going to be having sex with the other men at the retreat.
Speaker 2Yeah, I think you bring up a really good point there, which is this is a GBTQ, queer, bi, trans, gay retreat, and so naturally, there's going to be attraction and there can be attraction and there can be sexual attraction. And naturally, what I've seen is when we dive deep into our emotions and we open up and we become intimate with each other, that increases our sexual attraction with people. It happens, right. We want many of us want to have an emotional connection with the sexual connection as well. That's really important to our bodies, it's really important to our nervous systems, um, and so I think, naturally that's going to happen and we have clear boundaries and very clear agreements around what that looks like and and and because, and and. Consent is a huge thing at our retreat, even the consent to hug someone, having the consent to touch someone, um, we really hone that in at the beginning of the retreat so that everyone is on the same page. Kater, do you want to add anything to that?
Speaker 3Yeah, I also want to add just because we're not having sex doesn't mean we're not having fun. This is not a crying queers 72 hour retreat. This is. There is definitely crime, but there's also lots of joy, there's lots of fun, and I can't tell you what that means to this to me personally and the community that we're with is I'm having fun with 12, 15, 20 other gay men, and there's no sex involved. This is awesome. I never get to have this kind of connection with other queer men, and so you know I I just love that about these retreats.
Speaker 2Yeah, I mean it's like it's. Like you know, a common word in our, in our culture, is the word play, which often means we're going to have, we're going to play with someone, which means sexual play. Right, I'm playing around, right, and we play, but it's non-sexual play, yeah.
Speaker 1Um, and I'm not going to give away anybody's individual experience from the last retreat that we did, but it's my belief that some guys might not have known, despite all of the prep work done in advance explaining what the weekend was going to be like and all of that, um, I think that some guys were surprised at the depth and intensity of the work. We're not necessarily prepared for that and we're expecting something more akin to like a weekend cruise to nowhere, where you know you have a bunch of gay guys on a boat and you're just all sort of communing and you're just all sort of communing. I think there might've been an expectation that this was going to be more of a let's sit around the campfire strumming a guitar and singing Kumbaya and talking about our feelings, rather than diving as deep as we did into what people's experiences are, what their emotional and somatic experiences are. I mean, does that kind of go along with how you feel things go?
Speaker 3Absolutely yeah, and I think you know you brought up one of the important parts of our retreat is the somatic part, which you know. One thing I said I'm tickling myself because I want to talk about tools and but not in a queer way. But um, we, we thank you for laughing, Um, but we want to give our guys tools to use going forward in their life, so they don't just come to this and then they're dumped out into the real world and be like how do I do this? Like this is a place where we want them to learn how to regulate their body, learn how to take care of their emotions, learn how to ground themselves, learn how to be authentic and vulnerable. And so, yeah, it's not just kumbaya around the fire fire which can be at some points but it actually is a place where you're going to leave this retreat with a better understanding of how to live in an everyday, normal world. That might be overwhelming.
Speaker 2And I also think we, you know, we want to provide a space where guys can really practice what it's like to be an emotional embodied person, practice what it's like to be emotionally embodied with other people in community. And that takes a lot of practice. I would say across the board, gay or straight, queer or straight men have a hard time connecting on a deep level. Men have a hard time sitting with their feelings and really sharing how they feel. But also men have a hard time receiving what other people feel. Men have a hard time seeing emotion and not finding ways to fix the problem and just allowing it to be. And so what we're doing at GBTQ retreats is we're training men how to be with their emotions, how to sit with their emotions, but also how to receive others' emotions, not take it personal and not have to go into fixer mode, and I think that's really important in our development.
Speaker 2There aren't that many spaces that are created primarily for just this emotional embodiment piece. And the somatic piece is really important here because I also find that in many men's workspaces it's very heady and intellectual, it's very abstract. We talk about archetypes and these different hierarchical roles, and that's not the work that we're primarily invested in the work that we're primarily invested in is our nervous systems and how our nervous systems interact with each other, but also how our nervous systems can really play an integral role in our health in either regulating our emotions or in getting ourselves into a mobilization to fight or flight, getting ourselves into a mobilization to fight or flight. And so we're really teaching guys and we're teaching their nervous systems how to regulate, how to connect, how to find safety in a really curated and crafted and well-intentioned way.
Speaker 1You hit on something and this is sort of to the left of what you hit on, but I'm going to go there anyway and that is that doing this in a queer space, in a queer-occupied space, can be easier for some guys and it can be more challenging for some guys. So I'm going to use I'm going to explain what I mean by that by using myself as an example. So earlier in my life, cisgender straight men were the enemy. They were unsafe, they were the bullies, they were the people who hurt me. All of that.
Speaker 1At some point in my life, in my 20s and into my 30s, that shifted and my good friends became my best male friends were straight men, felt like, were the hurting people, the harming people were the gay men in my life and they felt unsafe. And so I felt safer around straight guys than I did around queer identified men. So when I first came to these men's workspaces, I was much more comfortable around the straight guys I met than I was around the few gay guys that I met in these spaces. And so had I come to this retreat at the beginning of my men's work journey, I would have found this incredibly challenging instead of comforting, and I'm curious if you think that any of the guys who have been to your queer-focused retreats have had that experience where they've come and thought, okay, this is going to be ultra-challenging because gay men feel unsafe to me.
Speaker 2Yeah, I mean totally.
Speaker 2I mean there's a spectrum of experiences, right, and, just like you know, our experience as gay men is going to be different from everyone else's, and who we connect and relate to is going to be different from everyone else's.
Speaker 2I think there are participants who I am thinking of in particular, who are gay men, who came out later in their life, who had lived straight lives, who, some of them were married, some of them have kids and had lived this entirely different life until later in their life, where they decided to courageously come out and they have the experience of being in a space like this and being like whoa.
Speaker 2I've never really spent this much time with gay men in my life and I think we have people of the opposite end who primarily hang out with queer people, who only find comfort and safety with queer people, and so I think you know, wherever your experience is, it's completely valid, and I think what you are getting to there at Dore is that, like, whatever is coming up for you at the retreat, or whatever your intention is at the retreat, we're going to find ways to help you be with it and sit with it and maybe not necessarily fix the problem, because we're not there to fix but help you find, develop a new relationship, whatever with whatever that work is. So if your work is being with more queer men or your work is with being feeling more comfortable with straight people, that's going to come up at a retreat and we're going to help you develop a deeper relationship with it that feels healthy differ when the audience is queer identified men versus the audience is every guy in the world.
Speaker 1Are there different principles at work here that we apply?
Navigating Male Intimacy in Queer Spaces
Speaker 3I don't really think so. You know, from all the work that I've been doing for so long with all men like mike by, many of my clients are straight as well. We all have that same shame, you know. We all are going through the same thing. And that is the beauty of being in a, in a group of straight men. That I mean. Yes, like, like you, I was bullied by straight white men my whole life, so that was my whole high school. What still? Bullied by straight white men in politics, you know.
Speaker 3So, being in a room of straight white men mostly straight white men yeah, it was a place for me to really regular, like, see, like, oh wow, they're going through shit too, you know. And oh wow, this look at him being vulnerable, like he looks like someone who'd beat me up. So, being in a queer space where we always still have these, well, oh, he's prettier than I am. Or oh, well, is he going to find me attractive and that's taken away. But we still have these feelings, don't we? You know, when you first set eyes on this group of 20 guys, we're going to be spending, you know, 72. Not going to happen at a straight retreat.
Speaker 3It is really still the basic principles that we've been doing for so long of connecting to the body, going deeper, processing that shame, finding tools and how to live, uh, in a daily life authentically and vulnerably. Um, which is a beautiful thing for queer people to realize is that we're not that different than these straight men. They're, they're. We have heard, all of us have heard those those many, many men talking about how they never felt like their father loved them, you know, and that so that's across the spectrum. You know, are being bullied at school. So I think that is a really beautiful thing that we can all, if we can all, get to that same space of hey, we're all in the same, we're on the same boat here. We're all wanting to to grow and to deepen our, our, our love for ourselves and each other.
Speaker 3Anything to say about that Mike.
Speaker 2Yeah, I mean, I think at one point in all of our lives we've all been othered by someone and we've all been made to feel like we don't belong.
Speaker 2You know, unfortunately for queer people, we've seen that in our politics and in legislation, and so that's where it becomes different. That's where the difference, you know, where the government really does control how we can find our own happiness and our own safety. So that's a different experience, right, when you have a whole system that is played against you. It's a different experience than being a straight guy that doesn't have to worry about holding their partner's hand in public or attending or being at a bar right, or walking down the street uh, like treatment. Just don't have that kind of experience, right, and so I want to honor that. But as far as the emotional part of feeling othered and feeling ashamed and feeling sad and grieve, yeah, I mean across the board, we can all relate to that, that. We can all relate to the similarities of what it feels like to not feel, um, like we are accepted because of our emotions one of the thing that is often present for me at retreats is as an openly gay man.
Speaker 1As an openly gay man, when I go to hug a straight guy. I don't do this so much anymore, but it used to be a big thing for me that, as I would go in for the hug, I would play this little game in my head of does he think that I'm trying to have physical contact with him? Does he think that I have ulterior motives here by going in for the hug? Right, and that doesn't happen so much anymore. But at a gay retreat, at a GBTQ retreat, that comes up again or it can come up again with as I reach in for the hug, is the guy going hey, is he trying to hug me because he's attracted to me or as you go in for the hug, is he looking at you and saying can I get through this hug because I'm attracted to him hugging me?
Speaker 1um, and so there's this weird sort of chemistry dynamic thing going on and I'm curious is that just a game that went on in my head, or is that something that, like everyone, either experiences or has experienced?
Speaker 3I think it's human nature to have that feeling right. I mean, it comes up for me often and yeah, and that's something that's why we're there, isn't it To push through some of that and to see if the guy pushed it backs away like huh, what's this work that he has to do?
Speaker 1and what's my work to like you know be offended by it.
Speaker 2Right, yeah, and I and I and you know, honestly I don't know if that's a unique experience to queer men, right, I think straight men think that about hugging straight men. I think straight men are afraid of that, of hugging other straight men. Right, like, if I, if I put my hand on this guy's shoulder as he's feeling his emotion, is he going to think that I'm coming on to him or I'm flirting with him? Right, and I think this is where we verge on, or I guess we have to shift the culture of male intimacy, right, we have to shift what it's like. Here in Mexico, it's very common for me to kiss my straight male friends, sometimes on the lips, but most of the time on the cheek, and it's not even a thing. It's not a thing at all. It's not uncommon for me here in mexico or in other spanish countries for me to put my arm around another man and just have my arm there in a non-sexual way. It's very, it's very accepted. There are different cultures out there that are very handsy with each other and same-sex handsiness, right, same-sex intimacy, that is non-sexual and, um, I don't think it's a uniquely american thing, where there's just just a little bit of that like pause of like what, what signal am I sending? Or what signal are you sending me? Um, and I don't think it's a very unique, um queer thing. I think many men of all spectrums of sexuality think that. I think this is, um, you know, what's interesting about that is like there's almost like this predatory sense underneath it, like am I now being a predator here or is this person being a predator to me? And in some ways, that can be a very similar experience to female, identified female bodied people, females, where females like think about that quite often. Right, right, I was, um, you know it, it was.
Speaker 2It was actually at one of the retreats that the three of us were leading where, uh, a topic of one of the straight guys at the retreat. He was just a participant. He was like, um, you know, I've been to a gay bar and I felt all the eyes on me and I felt really uncomfortable, like they could smell my straightness and I was like, great, now, you know what it feels like to be a woman at a bar, and he just it like blew him away. He was like, oh, my God, yes, you're right. Like that's what it feels like, right, and like you know, there is this like hyper vigilance of being. Am I a predator here? Am I not a predator here? And I'm not saying that that's bad.
Speaker 2I think we have to be aware of those kinds of things. I think we have to bring that into our awareness, but that's also the kinds of things that we have to start to dissolve, because I really do believe that intimacy, either between opposite sexes or opposite sexualities, whatever it is, I think it's completely needed and non-sexual intimacy is needed in all relationships.
Speaker 1Yeah, absolutely. One of the moments that I remember from our retreat was trying to introduce safe touch. Trying to sort of introduce kind of you know, can you embrace, can you cuddle in a non-sexual way just as a way to have safe touch, and how hard that was the level of resistance that there was to to going there, um, which frankly surprised me.
Speaker 2Um.
Speaker 1I I thought that this would be something that, that maybe I was naive to assume that gay men were freer with their personal space or their bodies than straight men were, and so I was a little surprised at the level of resistance that I saw in. How do we engage together in safe touch? Um, and I think part of that was that it was maybe it was not introduced far enough in advance, you know, as as I was, as we were all workshopping that Um, but part of it also, I think, was just that I was bringing my suppositions about how gay men treat their personal space and their bodies, uh, as opposed to how straight men do. I don't know Any any thoughts about that.
Speaker 3Yeah, I mean, I feel like at some of the retreats we've all been at with mostly straight men, everyone's touching each other because it's such a loving connection and there's no, there's no, no fear there, right, if you're in that vulnerable space as a bunch of straight men with us too, you know, and there's no, there's no, no fear there, right, if you're in that vulnerable space as a bunch of straight men with us too, you know there's a lot of hands around each other and a lot of hugging and lots of. It's a really, really beautiful thing to see. But in our world, in the GBTQ queer world, like we're so, we're so protected because we're always used to being oh, is that, oh, is that? Oh, what's that, you know, with touching, and even in a really vulnerable space, like maybe you've been too vulnerable and didn't take an advantage of in the past.
Speaker 3So, um, I think there's a lot of uh there. There's a lot of walls there for queer men um, to go into a consensual cuddle puddle as we called it, and that's why we do it is to break down those walls and to find a space to feel safe and be able to put your arm around another queer man. And it's not romantic, it's not sexual, it is a brotherhood. Yeah.
Speaker 2Yeah, I mean, I think what I find very common in um in in the gay world, is that we're oftentimes objectified and we can feel that and sometimes touch becomes this like you are objectifying me, like you are using me for some of your like, for a sexual need that you have, a sexual desire that you have, and I think what I think what this really comes down to is our lack of safety within our own culture, within our own people. Um, I think, you know, if we had a few more days together and we knew each other on a deeper level and we can relate a little bit more, I think we would have had an easier time, because I have I facilitate another. It's actually a mixed retreat, but it's a. We're all queer facilitators. Um, it's wild heart, men's breathwork retreat in mendocino, at spirit camp, and the four of us facilitators are super cuddly with each other.
Speaker 2We're very like okay, and and we do these like exercises that feel like oh, oh okay, this is a kind of like it's risky here, but we're also very queer and very like okay, and we know each other. You know we are introducing intimacy to a group of basically strangers and I think that's hard, I think it's really difficult. And to Kate's point, and I think this is why we do it, we do it because it is difficult, because it's risky point, and I think this is why we do it. We do it because it is difficult, because it's risky, and to remove the objectification of it, to remove the, the sex away from it feels new and it feels foreign and I think that's what makes it a bit difficult is the foreignness of it, of it all yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1um, and as you were talking, I kept thinking am I predator or am I prey? Right?
Speaker 3Yeah.
Speaker 1We brushed up against this sort of kind of briefly here, uh, just in that segment, but I'm going to kind of take it a little further. How do you cause cause? One of the things that I recall from when I was working with you was that we had a very structured outline that we followed, you know, from eight to eight 15, we're going to do this, and then from eight 15 to eight 30, we're going to do that and whatever. How do you structure that? How do you do that? Like what's the thought process that goes into? How do I organize this in a way that feels like flow?
Speaker 2Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I have a background in education and so what's really important in teaching students is the scaffolding aspect of it, right To figure out what do we want our students to walk away with at the end of the retreat. And so, from my perspective, the way that I like to structure and organize a retreat is I like to work backwards, right. So Cater and I have had meetings of what do we want these guys to walk away with Sunday afternoon. What are they feeling, what are they, how are they behaving, how are they speaking to each other, how are they talking? And then how do we get there?
Speaker 2And at our retreats we like to have just a balanced level of activation and deactivation. So basically, what that means is providing exercises and scenarios where we have our participants take some risks, and that could just be as simple as sharing something very intimate, something risky, or making eye contact with someone, and then we expand on that, we kind of go deeper, but we just do enough to hold the tension and then we do something to release it and we bring them back down to a place where they can connect with themselves. And it's like this very beautiful dance of um, activating and deactivating, activating and deactivating, and it's through this process that guys get to be in their bodies, but also, um, I think, ultimately get to where we want them to be at the end of the retreat, which is, you know, oftentimes you want them hugging and not wanting to leave, and that's what often happens is guys are hugging and saying, wow, this went by so fast, how can we do more of this?
Speaker 3Our next retreat is going to be four days and not three, because so many men have asked for more and I think that's a great way to Mike's point of the way you scale. This is so we don't have to cram so much into one day that it's sensory overload for the guys, that we can space it out as well with the relaxing time, with the hiking time, with the downtime, and they get to know each other even better and for longer. This retreat over Easter Passover weekend, which was kind of a risk for us Passover weekend, which was kind of a risk for us. But we we did a poll and so many queer people were like we don't either have family to go to or this is a great excuse not to go to family. Happy to come to a retreat on Easter, passover weekend and we have the day off. You know people get their Friday and Monday off.
Speaker 1So Right, uh, yeah, no, when, when? When you told me it was going to be over Easter weekend, I was like, great, now I know what I'm doing for Easter, because I didn't have any plans otherwise. One of the things as you were talking there about you know, constructing that with, you know creating attention and then creating a release, and all of that One of the things that came up for me was we're not just facilitators often there, we're also participants, uh, in, in a way. One of the things that I remember that that still like if I start talking about it too much, it's going to make me start crying Um, was the exercise that we did where we stood in a circle and you know, if this sentence describes you, step in.
Speaker 1If this sentence describes you, you, if this sentence describes you, you know, whatever, um and uh, I was a wreck when we were doing that exercise. Like you know, every time, every time you read a statement that was me, like it compounded for me, it wasn't like, oh, I did this and then I did that. It was like I did this and I am that and I am that, and it just got heavier and heavier and heavier, and and uh, even though I was technically one of the safe, the guardrails. I was one of the the safeties for the other men. I was also deeply impacted by that, and so, in a way, we're we're not just facilitators, we're also participants. I mean, has that been your experience as well?
Speaker 2Yeah, I mean, I think that's a really important part of the work, right, I think it's. It's. I think, with any person that leads this kind of work, with any person that leads this kind of work it's imperative that they do deep healing work on their own to be able to hold the space for others. I honestly don't trust any other people who have never done a therapy session or a coaching session, who have never gone to a retreat right? I don't want to put myself in their hands, because if you haven't gone through the depths of your own healing and the depths of your own darkness, how can you hold that for anyone else? And I think it's powerful, because I think what you're saying to at the day is that, like, we have to be one. Yes, we're holding the guardrails, yes, we're creating the space, but we also have to be invested in the space. And being invested in the space doesn't mean that we're robots and we're cold, but being invested in the space means that we're actually feeling, because that acts as a role model and as an example of what it's like to be a leader in this.
Speaker 2That's emotional leadership. Emotional leadership is being able to talk in this and being like I can have all of these huge feelings and be okay, right, I can, I can, I could share this deep feeling. I could share this deep shame or anger or sadness and I'm okay. And we and we need role models like that. Many of us didn't have role models of emotional role models like that, right, we had. We had different role models where people would get into these emotions and dysregulate and dissociate, and we need people who can be in these emotions and stay connected to themselves, and we all were I mean, all of us were in tears, right that exercise is powerful and all of us are in tears and all of us are still so connected with ourselves and with our group, and I think that's an imperative experience, right?
Speaker 2You know I I I'm not I would say like, go to other retreats and experience it. Go experience other leaders. But my thing is is, if you can't feel your leader, then I think there's a red flag there. If there's a part of you that goes, oh, there's something in me that says I can't feel this person or I don't feel connected to this person, I think there might be a red flag there and I think we might need to step back right, because there could be emotional or spiritual bypassing that's happening with that leader and we see that a lot, unfortunately, in our space. And so what I would say is like you know, cater and I do these events and we we do this.
Speaker 2Like, one of our events is queer coffee hour, right, and come to our event. Come to queer coffee hour and come and see us. Like, come, check us out and feel us. One of the reasons why we have, you know, discovery calls for guys who are interested in our retreats is most of these guys are coming in because they're very curious and they want to go to the retreat.
Speaker 2But partly it's because they want to see if we're real, if we're the real deal and they want to connect with us and so come to one of our our events, come to schedule a call with us and feel us and see if your nervous system feels regulated and safe with us to do this kind of work.
Speaker 1And I drink coffee. How come I've never heard of Queer Coffee Hour before? This is news to me.
Speaker 3now Come tomorrow 9 am tomorrow we're going to have many of them, so we'll see.
Speaker 1Wow, how about that Cater? Anything to add to that, to what Mike just said?
Benefits of Attending GBTQ Retreat
Speaker 3No, I mean, I think it's, you know, similar vein of it's healthy to see the facilitators cry. You know you want to see them that they're feeling this, they're processing this as well. That makes it. When I was new to all this and I would see facilitators break down like wow, that showed me they're really connected to this work too.
Speaker 1Yeah, Obviously, we want guys to experience this because it I really really want GBTQ men to experience one of these retreats. Because when I think about if I had had access to this when I was in my twenties or my thirties, like everything would have been different for me, like the fact that I didn't get to experience this until I was in my fs, to me is, I mean, it's amazing and I'm grateful and all of that, but it's also A crime. It makes me sad that, like there were decades that I suffered when I didn't have to, because if I had only known that, that this community was out there, on the one hand, on the other hand, I wonder if this, this community was out there, on the one hand, on the other hand, I wonder if this community really was out there during those years. I think maybe it didn't exist until a lot more recently.
Speaker 1Um, but when you think about the way that guys benefit from these retreats, what would you tell guys are the reasons to attend? Why would you say, yes, take a risk, take a chance, come, do this Cater, I'll start with you. Sure.
Speaker 3Yeah Well, I think the the first thing is Sure, yeah Well, I think the first thing is which I hear at every GBTQ I host a GBTQ dig at Everyman, and from any place I go, I always hear gay men saying I'm just looking for community, I'm just looking for community, these guys can live in Saskatchewan, they can live in, they can live in Manhattan, they can live in Boise, like no matter where you are, and you think, think, oh, will it be different in LA, or different in San Francisco, or different. And you know, maybe, if you like I'm hoping in Atlanta I will I can start curating like a group of queer people that I can connect with deeper, but overall it's really hard. And so this is a great space to start meeting people who are not just into RuPaul's Drag Race, which I love, but also who want to do that work and who you could call and say, hey, brother, I'm having a really bad day, or oh my God, miss Thing, like I just got engaged, whatever you know and to really connect with these guys in a more, in a deeper way, and queer men are looking for that ravenously, and so I'm hoping men will come to these and then that way, you know, we there were a couple of guys that were completely opposites at our last retreat who ended up going to a dance party together and Manhattan, you know, afterwards cause they totally bonded on this retreat. So that's what we want to see here. Uh, that's one of the most important things for me. How about you, mike?
Speaker 2Yeah, um, how about you, mike? Yeah, I think for me, if you're feeling stressed or overwhelmed or burnt out and you want to learn some tools and some innate tools that we have already in our body, it's not purchasing a foam roller, it's not purchasing a different massage tool or a breathwork practice come check us out, because we are really teaching guys how to feel relief and calm in their body. Yeah, there's probably going to be breathwork practices and meditation practices and yoga practices, but there's something really beautiful to Kater's point around our bodies feeling safe and connected with other bodies. Um, our bodies, naturally, will feel calm with other calm bodies, and so if that's something that you and your body are craving, come to our retreat, because we are. We're creating a space for that to happen.
Speaker 1Yeah, definitely to happen. Yeah, definitely. Traditionally on the show, I ask the guests two questions, uh, the first being what does authenticity mean to you? And you guys have already answered that question, so I'm not going to ask you that again, um. But my other standard question, which I stand by, uh, and and which never gets old, is, as we are coming to the end of our time together, what is it that I didn't ask you? Or what topic did I not bring up that you really wish that I had? Or question that I I didn't ask you? You wish I had asked you. What comes up when I say that?
Speaker 2Are you a top or?
Speaker 1bottom or side or side, or Just kidding.
Speaker 2Just kidding, just kidding.
Speaker 3Hilarious, I know. What I would love for you to ask is tell me more about Easton Mountain, where we host our retreat, because when, when we went there last time, it brings tears to my eyes because, again, queer people don't what, what, what is the number one space? Queer people have A bar space. Queer people have a bar, right, you know. And easton mountain I don't remember how big it is, but 200 acres of wildlife that is queer owned, that you know is only used for queer activities only radical fairy events, nudist events, and it's there's a.
Speaker 3There's a cemetery, you know, for queer elders. I mean, it's been there since it was started, you know, to bring joy during the AIDS crisis. So it's a really powerful, sacred place to have a retreat, truly, where we all feel safe. Like there's no place I feel safer than Easton Mountain. If something's happening, I'm going to get in my car and drive up to Easton if I need to feel safe, to Easton if I need to feel safe, and the people who run it are just wonderful and the food is delicious and the spaces are so cozy. So I can't rave enough about this really beautiful space. It's magical. I'm so honored that we can work with this space to do this healing work.
Speaker 1Yeah, magical was the word that came up for me as you were talking. I was thinking. My impression of the place was that it was simply magical, which is not generally a word in my vocabulary, but there's just no better way to describe that place. And the staff was just amazing.
Speaker 1And I was actually surprised at how many of the staff were straight but just loving, like so loving towards us, uh, that like sexuality wasn't even a thing, even though it's a queer space um, and hands down the best food I have ever had at any retreat not that I would say that the food is the reason to go to a retreat, but honestly, this was the best food I've ever had at a retreat. I was so. I was, I couldn't believe it, I was beside myself at how great it was. But the place is just beautiful, and I mean the, the scenery, the views, the accommodations are swell. I mean it's such a sweet, sweet place. I'm sorry, mike, I feel like I cut you off. I feel like you were about to say something.
Speaker 3No, no, no, you're good.
Speaker 1Okay, good, yeah. So I'm going to turn it over to you then, mike, with my question of what do you wish I had asked you that I didn't ask? What didn't I bring up? What do you wish I had asked you that I didn't ask what?
Speaker 2didn't I bring up. I think the immediate question that comes up is what do I hope for?
Speaker 2men in this world and what I hope is that you know, regardless of your sexuality, I hope you find community, that deep, true, beautiful community, something that the three of us here on this show has really experienced with other men through the work that we do. Um, I really hope that every single man in this world has at least one person in their life that is male identified, that looks like them, because I think that's. I think men need other men, just like women need other women to connect with on a really deep level.
Speaker 1Yeah, thank you for that. I think. If there's one other thing that I would want to bring up, it is that, even though this is a GBTQ retreat, that does not make it less than or substandard or whatever. It's not like we're lowering our standards to do a queer retreat. This is the same level of excellent facilitation and deep, intense work and emotional healing and somatic experiencing that I have experienced at any other retreat.
Speaker 1The only difference is that this is a safe space for queer identified men, but the retreat experience itself is so much like every other retreat experience and to me, that's a really important thing for guys to know. It's like you're not coming to this and getting less of an experience and just hanging out with a bunch of beautiful gay men, even though that's true, um, you are getting an amazing experience uh, uh, in some ways a perfect experience and hanging out with a bunch of beautiful, uh gay by trans queer men, of beautiful, uh gay, bi, trans queer men. Um, and I think that's that's one of the things that I I really felt needed to get put across and I didn't do it earlier, and so I I saved it for the end, but um how do guys find out more?
Speaker 3How do guys find out more? Gptqretreatscom? And we will, if you could put that in the show notes. And also we have an Instagram GPTQretreats. You can also follow Mike and I on Instagram and, like Mike mentioned earlier, this was kind of a last um, like a week ago, to do this career coffee idea. Um, just to have a time to just whether you want to come on the retreat or just get to know us, whatever it is, just, you know, once a month, do a career coffee at 9am on a Saturday. Move your body, learn about us, have any questions and um, yeah, again, another space to connect to career folks.
Speaker 1Um, it's not a bar. Yeah, beautiful, uh. Well, guys, I can see by the clock on the wall that our time together has ended. This ended much too quickly and much too soon. Uh, however, I just want to express my deepest, deepest gratitude for the two of for spending the time, taking time out of your busy schedules to be here and to share this with me. The two of you are both just so beautiful and perfect to me. I just adore both of you deeply, as you know. Cater, mike, thank you so so much for being here.
Speaker 2Such an honor. Thank you, brother. Yeah, thank you so, so much for being here. Such an honor. Thank you, brother. Yeah, thank you so much.
Speaker 1Uh, and with that, it is time to throw the bags back into the jalopy and head back out onto the authenticity road. So, on behalf of the show, I am a tour and until we meet again, please be authentic. Goodbye everyone. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe so you're notified when a new episode is posted. Thanks so much for listening.
Speaker 2We hope what you've heard will help you on the road to your personal authenticity.
Speaker 1Visit us at wwwauthenticityroadonline. Thank you.
