The rights and treatment of refugees is never far from the media headlines. Hostile narratives and politicised rhetoric dominate the news at a time when globally, solidarity for refugees continues to decline.
But with devastating conflict and climate hazards forcing more and more people from their homes, is the international community failing on its shared commitment to refugees?
It’s been five years since the global compact on refugees was established in 2018, a commitment that enshrines responsibility to governments, international organisations, and other stakeholders to support refugees and host communities.
With the Global Refugee Forum due to take place in Geneva this December, on this episode we look critically at the difference these agreements can make and how can we hold signatories to account. We ask our guests if the vision of global solidarity for refugees and their hosts is still achievable.
Speakers
The rights and treatment of refugees is never far from the media headlines. Hostile narratives and politicised rhetoric dominate the news at a time when globally, solidarity for refugees continues to decline.
But with devastating conflict and climate hazards forcing more and more people from their homes, is the international community failing on its shared commitment to refugees?
It’s been five years since the global compact on refugees was established in 2018, a commitment that enshrines responsibility to governments, international organisations, and other stakeholders to support refugees and host communities.
With the Global Refugee Forum due to take place in Geneva this December, on this episode we look critically at the difference these agreements can make and how can we hold signatories to account. We ask our guests if the vision of global solidarity for refugees and their hosts is still achievable.
Speakers
Sara Pantuliano: [00:00:00] Welcome to Think Change. I'm Sara Pantuliano, ODI's Chief Executive. The rights and treatments of refugees is an issue that is never far from the media headlines. On this podcast, we've talked before about the impact of hostile media narratives. We've talked about the increasingly politicized rhetoric about refugees and migrants, particularly across Europe.
And at the same time, we see devastating conflict and climate related hazards that are forcing more and more people from their homes. So in this episode, I want to focus on the role of the so called international community in this abstract concept that brings together international players, states in particular, but also civil society.
They are supposed to hold others to account. The Global of Compact refugees [00:01:00] was established in 2018. It is supposed to enshrine responsibility sharing among governments, among international organisations, but also other stakeholders to support both refugees and host communities. There is a global refugee forum happening in Geneva in December.
This will mark five years since the compact was launched. But if we look around at the treatment of refugees today, I think this is a time for us to look critically at the difference that these agreements may or may not make. How can we hold the signatories to a compact like this to account? And is this vision of global solidarity for refugees and their hosts still achievable?
But that's what we want to discuss today. We have a range of fantastic guests with different expectations of what a global event like the can really achieve for refugees. And when actually there is still cause to be hopeful. So joining me today, I'm really delighted to introduce Shaza Alrihawi. Shaza is a human rights advocate and researcher.
She's also the co-founder in leading refugee initiatives such as the Global Refugee Network. Along with Shaza, we have Zoe Gardner. Zoe is an independent immigration policy expert and a campaigner for the rights of all migrants and refugees in the UK and across Europe. We also have our own Amanda Gray Meral, research fellow at ODI, and last but not least is Lauren Post Thomas.
Lauren is Senior Advocacy Officer for Refugees and Safe Water Initiatives at the Conrad Hilton Foundation. Amanda, let me start with you. Can you tell us a little bit about the context of the Global Compact, um, the role that it currently plays in driving forward change for refugees across the world?
What has it achieved? And do you think it's still fit for purpose or is it not?
Amanda Gray Meral: Thanks, Sara. So, as you said, the Compact came to life between 2016 and 2018 under the auspices of the UN, member states, UNHCR and IOM. And it was in the context of increasing numbers of refugees, particularly, globally, but particularly refugees coming to Europe in light of the Syrian refugee crisis.
2015 was a crucial tipping point with over 1 million people attempting to reach Europe. So the international community wanted to rethink its approach, and there was a consensus that the refugee protection regime wasn't adequate enough because there was an absence of a framework for international cooperation to burden-share the responsibility for hosting and supporting refugees around the world. In 2016 then, the New York Declaration for Refugees and Migrants was agreed, and there was consensus at that, in that declaration to work towards a global compact on refugees for safe, orderly, and regular migration over the next couple of years.
And as Sara mentioned, the Global Compact on Refugees was finally affirmed by the General Assembly in December 2018. And it had four main objectives. To ease pressure in host countries, to enhance refugee self-reliance, to expand access to third country solutions, and to support conditions in countries of origin for, for return and safety and dignity.
So in terms of what is achieved, it's true that an international collaborative efforts, um, can be beneficial in, in responding to, to global refugee challenges. And it is important to encourage states to make public commitments and open forums, the big criticism from, from my perspective is the glaringly strong disconnect between donor support from predominantly global north states [00:05:00] for the global compact of refugees, um, with a very different agenda at home.
So, for example, the UK's illegal migration act is in direct contravention to the principles of the 51 refugee convention, and we see this rolling back on refugee protection across Europe. I think the other things to flag in terms of concerns with the compact are that it is a flawed document in and of itself.
It has avoided some key protection issues. And in any case, the document is not binding. And I think just linked to some of my hesitancy around what is actually achieved, it reflects a flaw in the monitoring and implementation of the compact. It's very hard to follow what it achieves. There is the refugee response framework and there is a monitoring system in place by UNHCR to try and measure that, but it's incredibly hard to [00:06:00] do.
Um, and has been criticised for being ineffective.
Sara Pantuliano: Well, there seems to very clearly be a disconnect when we look at international commitments like the Global Refugee Compact and then, you know, compare to what is really happening to refugees and the rights and support they're offered. Zoe, this is something you've dealt with quite a bit. Do you think we've tipped too far towards host communities at the expense of refugees and their rights?
Zoe Gardner: Yeah, I would agree with a lot of the criticisms that have been made. Um, there I understand it's a it's an issue that, um, it's difficult to address at a multi-national level, but I feel like the global compact is trying to play golf on a football pitch, or they're just not playing on the same field as national governments in Europe.
They're not talking to the press, they're not talking to the public and they're not talking in a language that makes this issue [00:07:00] understandable and tangible to people's everyday lives across Europe. And so it feels like you know, for all the good intentions and, and positive pledges made, um, at this forum, actually, that doesn't translate into any of the positive discourse that is so desperately needed in the UK and across Europe, um, on the side of refugees and people seeking protection, and on the side of, of humanitarian action from the countries most able to provide it.
So the richest countries, and that includes the whole of Europe. I mean, if we look at the UK at the moment, The conversation about refugees is entirely skewed, um, the fact that people have the right under international law to come and enter a country if they are seeking asylum, um, has been completely trashed, um, in the public consciousness.
Um, and this has also created some sort of unholy alliances as well. So we see the British Prime Minister Rishi [00:08:00] Sunak traveling to Italy um, to, to meet with his counterpart Meloni for them to discuss how both of them wish to reject refugees and shouldn't have to take care of them when obviously their positions are counter-post to each other because Rishi Sunak says, refugees should all stay in Europe, and none of them should be the responsibility of the United Kingdom.
Obviously, that would increase the burden on Italy. Um, but because that is lost in a conversation, which is all about demonisation and about pushing away responsibility from Europe. Um, it feels to me as a campaigner on the ground that, uh, we, we need those voices from spaces like the Global Refugee Forum to be coming out much stronger, much more clearly on the side of humanitarianism, uh, in, in the public discourse and not sort of at this elevated level in Geneva, where it really doesn't do us all that much good, to be honest.
Sara Pantuliano: Thanks, Zoe. [00:09:00] We've talked about the importance of narratives and how they, you know, play out with the public for a long time, and today I will do a lot of research on that. I think what is very often missing in these discussions is the lived experience of the refugees themselves. Um, Shaza, why do you think this happens?
Shaza Alrihawi: I think before we are exploring the necessity of doing some changes, we need to emphasise on why refugee voices is really matter and crucial to be included. Actually, a refugee is not merely like statistics or just numbers and burden to be solved or to be carried.
But also refugees is, um, like, individuals who have experienced the forcible displacement. They’re leaving their houses, they’re leaving their loved ones, behind, their stories, insights, and their perspective. And I think... we need to have their individual to crafting the meaningful and effective [00:10:00] solutions from their perspective, like the gap nowadays is in many cases, or, like, if you can say in general, all decisions surrounding refugee issues tend to be prioritised, the policies, politics, and numbers, and no one looking at the experiences and the skills and the narratives of refugees.
And mostly refugees were overlooked and were isolated from the decision making, if we can say. No, no inclusion for refugees in the policy decision and they are clearly, uh, the only one, if we can say is able to address the real needs that the inspiration of those affected community.
So why it's not being included as one of the critical stuff that from our perspective as a refugee net organisation, we think we were not seen as a valid partner or as a as [00:11:00] a like a solid voice to be included. And this is where we are fighting to have some changes.
Zoe Gardner: Could I also just jump in there just, just to emphasise that might be somewhere where you know this group of actors has a real power, which is in, in putting forward training and providing the resources that lived experience people need in order for their voices to be heard, to be put forward in the narrative conversation where it's actually happening in, in member states and on the ground in the national conversations. Um, because that's something that, you know, we don't hear enough of. It's absolutely true. And it's the most powerful thing is understanding how people are humans just like us. And they, they need that protection. That would be the sort of antithesis to the populist rhetoric that we're hearing at the moment. And that could be something they could do. You know, they really have the power to do actually.
Amanda Gray Meral: Just to bring that back to the, the global compact and the forum [00:12:00] coming up. I mean, one of the criticisms of the compact and the compact process is that stakeholders are not equal. So, whilst one of the objectives has been to increase refugee participation and to have their voice and have them as a stakeholder in the room, attendance to the forum in Geneva is by invitation only.
And there's a real risk that refugee and host community representatives will be confined to fringe events with their voices drowned out in formal sessions by diplomatic dignitaries and states. Um, and even just the logistical challenge of accessing Geneva for refugee communities has to be, you know, you know, considered and the affordability of getting of travel and accommodation. So that's one of the criticisms. It's an EM of the compact process, but I'm not sure it's delivering on that aim.
Sara Pantuliano: Thanks. Shaza, Zoe and Amanda are raising some very important barriers to the inclusion of the voice of the refugees. What else do you think needs to [00:13:00] change to make sure that they really are at the center of these discussions?
Shaza Alrihawi: Yeah. Uh, as, as Amanda already mentioned, the inclusivity is something that we are fighting for. And as a GRN, we are asking for 10 percent of the attendance to be from the affected community. And, uh, in addition to this, uh, we were asking about accessibility. Accessibility that I mean, not only on visas and stuff. But also to have the language barriers should be also, uh, taken into consideration, like providing translation services, uh, transportation assistance, supporting financially to be able to attend this kind of platform. Also, we asked for hybrid, uh, uh, like, uh, sessions for some of the people who are not able to attend, like, you know, statelessness. Community is really just isolated. No one care about them. People with no documentation and, and [00:14:00] they are not able to travel, elderly. So I think this is something that we are also working on. Empowerment, giving like, as, as already mentioned by Zoe and Amanda. Like we need some training to access these things.
It's not about being skilled or not. It's about also the languages, the jargon, and all of these things happening in this kind of platform. We need to be trained to use all of this technology stuff. To, to, to not be, uh, uh, barred just because of this kind of technology or this kind of things. So, um, I think also having a, a platform where refugee can speak, having long term engagement of refugees is not about just inviting them to organisation, to just be in the table, but no, to have a long term engagement with them. It's not also an about consultation, but to have a regular meetings with them, including them [00:15:00] from designing the, the drafting also and implementing the GRF agenda are other also policies and then evaluating that from their perspective. So I think they have to be in all level of decisions making and discussing.
Sara Pantuliano: And those are incredibly important points. Lauren, what can donors do to heed to the points that Shaza is very powerfully making about how we can make these conversations more inclusive of refugee voices?
Lauren Post Thomas: Thank you, Sara. Um, and hopefully maybe I'll bring some more optimism, uh, against some of the barriers and challenges that Amanda and Zoe and Shaza have all um, helpfully outlined, um, you know, funders, whether private foundations like the Hilton Foundation or, you know, even donor governments, um, you know, we each have our, our own important role to play in this, um, uh, [00:16:00] building of refugee inclusion, uh, moments like the GRF, but also in national settings, um, where, you know, there's policy dialogue.
And perhaps I'll share a little bit about what we're doing at the Hilton Foundation to overcome some of these barriers and help our RLO partners overcome some of these barriers as a sort of example of, of what funders can be doing and be doing more and better of. So, perhaps first is, you know, we're, we're doing our best to make sure that RLOs, refugee leaders, refugee experts, um, have the funds, uh, to be able to participate in policy forums like the GRF. We know funding is often a major barrier, um, and so we've rolled out even in the last couple of months, um, some top up funding to a number of organisations that is going to support refugee leaders to attend the GRF in December.
Um, and we're, we're giving these funds directly to RLO's, um, or coalitions of [00:17:00] RLO's, um, so that way they have the flexibility and the decision making about where that, that money goes, um, rather than that maybe flowing through some other type of intermediary, um, along similar lines, I'd say, um, we also are funding a number of RLO coalitions who are helping train refugee leaders on how to meaningfully engage in these spaces, like Shaza mentioned, and the GRN is one of our major partners in this along with Our Seed and the Coalition for Venezuela and Raylon in Uganda.
Um, you know, we want to make sure that those refugees who do have access, um, and are able to participate in forums like the GRF, that they feel confident and that they have the tools, they have the experience to come and sit down at a table with policymakers. And it's not just a seat at the table, it's a voice at the table and that they're heard, and understood. Um, and so this is a huge piece of, you know, uh, of our funding in kind of this, this [00:18:00] arena and in an area where there's also a lot of other, um, funders. Shaza, do you want to come in on that?
Shaza Alrihawi: Yeah, I want to say that this is the first time ever that RLOs will support RLOs to attend GRF or to attend such a space. And I think it will not be happening without having someone as a funder like Hilton Foundation believing in the meaningful participation. I have to mention this here and then without you and without all your support, we were not able to reach that aim to have more refugees in the room. So I have to say that.
Lauren Post Thomas: Thanks, this is our hope, right? Um, and then I think, you know, the other thing that, uh, you know, we can be doing as, as funders in this space, you know, we sit in a very privileged position, um, when it comes to these international, um, kind of convenings and moments. And so, you know, we're doing our best at the foundation to [00:19:00] really amplify and echo the messaging that we're hearing from refugee leaders. Um, you know, whether that might be, for example, speaking with a donor government and, you know, saying, hey, are you making sure that you have a refugee as part of your delegation going to the GRF this year? Or do you have, you know, a refugee in your delegation heading to UNHCR's executive committee meeting?
Um, and so, you know, often because we are in the room with a lot of these international entities or actors. Um, we get the privilege and the opportunity to kind of share that type of messaging, um, and be another voice and helpful voice, hopefully, um, in, in some of that. Um, and of course, you know, the Hilton Foundation is not the only foundation out there that's doing this work.
We have a lot of, um, really great funding partners and co-funders for a lot of, um, these initiatives and these projects. And, um, like Shaza said, I'm, I'm, I'm quite hopeful that this year will see far more refugees at the GRF. [00:20:00] Um, certainly much more than the less than 2 percent of attendees at the previous, um, forum.
Um, and I think some of the things that we're working on are good first steps, but we're, of course, open to other ideas of how we can best support the community.
Sara Pantuliano: Thanks, Lauren. It's really, um, encouraging to hear. what the Hilton Foundation is doing. I hope you can be trendsetters and many others will follow in your footsteps.
So the GRF is coming around really quickly and we know that there have been big efforts from UNHCR to push for tangible commitments. They've been asking for mega pledges. What's needed to make sure that this actually leads to meaningful action? Zoe, I'll start with you.
Zoe Gardner: Uh, it's a big question, but, um, very quickly, I think that, uh, it's important that, um, there is the sort of bravery. And I know [00:21:00] that there's a sort of a fear of being too political in some of these spaces sometimes, but I think we need the bravery to call out where there are flagrant, um, uh, just Trashing of the commitments that are being made and the humanitarian principles and statements being made by the states.
Uh, for example, we know that the Greek government is participating in systematic pushbacks of refugees from their border. Um, this is incredibly dangerous, life endangering actions that leaves, you know, men, women and children adrift in rafts at sea. Um, this this kind of action is taken by a government that will then go to a forum such as this, and will make pledges about their humanitarian commitments to refugee protection, and that hypocrisy, there needs to be some way for that hypocrisy to be called out, and for, um, for governments not to be able to benefit from the halo effect of attending one of these events when they are perpetrating such horrific abuses against refugees.
Sara Pantuliano: Thanks, Zoe. Lauren, what's your take? What do you think we [00:22:00] should do?
Lauren Post Thomas: Thanks, Sara. Um, you know, I think that there, and, and Amanda mentioned some of this as well. There's been a huge lack of accountability, uh, when it comes to the pledges at the GRF.
If you look back at 2019, you know, the pledges, most of them were quite vague. Um, didn't have, you know, maybe outcome measures, uh, along, along with them. Um, and, and a lot of them were simply a commitment of things that folks were already doing or funding that they had already obligated. Um, and I think this time around, there's been a bit more dialogue, especially in the mega pledge discussions that I've been a part of, um, around what makes a meaningful pledge.
One that's specific, that is time bound, that's measurable, that's additive or new, that. has the input of refugees with lived experience. Um, and I think, you know, the next couple months will really see whether that has elevated the pledging process. And then it will really be in UNHCR's ball court to up their [00:23:00] game when it comes to accountability and tracking progress against these pledges and holding, um, states and other actors to, um, to their, to their commitments.
The other major thing that I think is really important here is this responsibility sharing. Um, you know, I think there's been a lot of, uh, refugee hosting countries that have made big commitments, um, important commitments, uh, to change their policies, the regulations, to bring more support to refugee communities and the host communities around them.
Um, and I think it's, it's critical that we see much, um, bigger investment in supporting that from the funder, um, landscape, both from government donors and, and foundations like the Hilton Foundation, rather than seeing, uh, pledges that are kind of separated from the reality of what these governments are, are pledging to do.
Sara Pantuliano: Thanks, Lauren. Shaza, how can we make sure [00:24:00] that this forum really matters?
Shaza Alrihawi: As they were said, like, it is a really big question. So, um, like, oh, like enough. If we can say having like a more in an inclusive and comprehensive like integration programs, where the supported refugee to becoming self-reliant and active member in their host communities instead of being burdened.
Um, I think also, uh, to shift from focusing on like border controls in many cases to think about like, uh, refugee, uh, and asylum seekers. To be, uh, protected and also like, uh, trying to, uh, uh, harmonise and implement the asylum and immigration policies across member states with ensuring that all refugees are treated fairly and equally regardless of the country of the entry.
Because we saw so many things like that. In addition to [00:25:00] the climate change issues. So we also hope that we can see more funding, more initiatives supporting refugees who is working or IDPs as well, because we will, unfortunately, having more people coming from the climate change crisis to seek asylum. So this is something that we are working on and also to ensure that it's beyond the GRF.
It's not something to commit during the, uh, the, uh, GRF and that's it. So maybe we can establishing independent monitoring mechanism to ensure all. All states or all stakeholders are really committed to their, like, pledges or to their commitment.
Sara Pantuliano: Thanks Shaza. Amanda, what can we do to turn these pledges into real action?
Amanda Gray Meral: So, I think we need to bring the conversation at the forum in Geneva, um, back to the rights of refugees and make that a focal point, [00:26:00] um, and reiterate the whole concept of asylum. And reemphasize international protection, that there's solidarity and we need to really, it's, it's be an undermined left, right, and center by states.
And I think just bringing that to the fore will be really important. And I think the other thing I would say is that I, you know, we've just published a blog on an ODI event that we did around public narratives in Southern Europe. And I think there is space to bring a more positive narrative around solidarity.
With refugees and you know, reiterating the rule of the 1951 Refugee Convention, there is space, there's an opening in public narratives that is more positive than politicians might think. And I think it's just holding states to account, pushing forward that positive narrative that refugee protection is, is about shared humanity, we need [00:27:00] to, you know, reiterate its vitalness to all of us, um, living on, you know, a shared world. So I think moving beyond this sort of liberal consensus and making the rights of refugees the focal point of the discussion in Geneva will be, will be crucial.
Sara Pantuliano: In thirty seconds each, just, can you share with our listeners, where do you hope we will be in five years from now and the next, the next Global Refugee Forum? Shaza.
Shaza Alrihawi: Hope we don't need to have any other GRF, like, uh, we finished with all of this crisis, hopefully, but yeah, to be realistic, I think, uh, to have more, like, uh, comprehensive work and a more open, uh, uh, like, openhearted and humanitarian, uh, like, approach for people to work together, considering refugees are an, an asylum and affected community are really a partner and equal partner to sit together and solve their problems.[00:28:00]
Sara Pantuliano: Thanks, Shaza. Amanda?
Amanda Gray Meral: For me, I hope that in five years, we have moved away from hostile rhetoric around the conversation around refugees and refugee protection, and that politicians have had the courage to embrace more humane and effective immigration policies, um, and that we don't sleepwalk into a far right narrative trap.
So yeah, I think my call for my hope for five years from now is that we're we are having a conversation around effectiveness around humane immigration policies and fundamentally around rights and, um, and solidarity.
Sara Pantuliano: Thanks. Lauren?
Lauren Post Thomas: Yes, Shaza, please let this, let this be the last GRF if we don't need a future one.
I love it. But, but me too, you know, I'm happy to be a little more practical, but still probably lofty and ambitious. Um, you know, I, I really hope that we see [00:29:00] the needle move. Um, and there's, you know, a rapid increase in an improvement in refugee integration and inclusion across policies and programs and regulations and partnerships, um, and that these are, are deeply and regularly informed by, uh, refugees themselves. Um, so I think that that is a really important direction of travel we're heading, um, and I think we're really getting somewhere, um, on that, but of course there's still, um, much more room to, to go.
Sara Pantuliano: Thanks. Zoe?
Zoe Gardner: Uh, yeah, I mean, I think in five years’ time, if I look back at the last five weeks, we've had the Home Secretary of the UK, Suella Braverman, go and question whether the Refugee Convention is fit for purpose in modern times.
And I think we were all horrified to hear that. And what I would really love would be if in five years’ time, we could be questioning again, whether it is fit for purpose, but from the perspective that it [00:30:00] actually doesn't protect enough people or offer all the solutions for the mobility that we need for the future of life on earth, and actually not to be desperately just clinging to keep what we have in place, which is where I feel we are now.
But actually looking at moving forward to more rights to mobility for more people who are impacted by all sorts of different reasons for needing to move worldwide, not all of which are currently protected under the Refugee Convention. So, right now it feels like we're just holding our ground, but hopefully in five years, we can be really moving forward to a world where more people have the right to move freely and we all benefit from that.
Sara Pantuliano: Thank you so much, all of you, um, for such an insightful conversation. I think we've heard very clearly that the Global Refugee Compact was an important accomplishment, but it hasn't really delivered what refugees hoped it would. And that's particularly because of the dissonance between the global commitments that were made, um, around the Global Refugee [00:31:00] Compact and the domestic policies of donor countries. Um, Zoe said that really well, you know, it's like playing golf on a football pitch. Um, you know, they're saying one thing and doing another one. Hopefully this Global Refugee Forum will include more meaningfully, really be centred in the voices and the lived experience of refugees.
And it will call out the lack of accountability, the commitments that we have seen so far. This way, we can avoid another Global Refugee Forum in five years’ time, but more importantly, we can chart a more meaningful pathways that can lead to a less hostile rhetoric around refugees and more courageous and humane refugees policies that are really centred on solidarity.
Thank you everyone for listening. As always, you'll find the resources we have referred to in the show notes. Um, if you've enjoyed the episode, please do like, subscribe, rate it. It does help us a lot. Um, make sure to keep [00:32:00] an eye out for the next episode. Until then, goodbye.