{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.19,"endTime":2.134,"body":"I had done a lot of cases in my career."},{"startTime":2.182,"endTime":4.314,"body":"I knew the right way to go about it."},{"startTime":4.352,"endTime":6.21,"body":"And we said to them, well, what do you have in mind?"},{"startTime":6.26,"endTime":8.106,"body":"So just a little bit, and I believe"},{"startTime":8.167,"endTime":11.3,"body":"his comment was 500 million to start."},{"startTime":11.87,"endTime":14.962,"body":"The major victory, the arrest of a Mexican drug lord."},{"startTime":15.046,"endTime":17.302,"body":"Chapo, as he's called Royal's most notorious drug"},{"startTime":17.326,"endTime":19.762,"body":"lord, was extradited to the United States, revealing"},{"startTime":19.786,"endTime":21.294,"body":"that he had worked with the feds to"},{"startTime":21.332,"endTime":23.07,"body":"bring down the accused drug lord."},{"startTime":36.75,"endTime":39.326,"body":"Welcome to heroes behind headlines."},{"startTime":39.458,"endTime":41.17,"body":"Today's guest is my good friend"},{"startTime":41.22,"endTime":43.382,"body":"and co author Michael R. McGowan."},{"startTime":43.526,"endTime":45.818,"body":"Mike is a legend in the FBI."},{"startTime":45.974,"endTime":47.95,"body":"Nobody in the FBI has worked"},{"startTime":48.0,"endTime":50.798,"body":"more undercover cases than him. Nobody."},{"startTime":50.954,"endTime":53.77,"body":"Only about 2% of FBI agents ever"},{"startTime":53.82,"endTime":56.182,"body":"work more than one undercover case."},{"startTime":56.376,"endTime":59.88,"body":"Mike has worked 50 50."},{"startTime":60.45,"endTime":62.062,"body":"Today we're going to talk about one of"},{"startTime":62.076,"endTime":64.678,"body":"his most significant cases, which is when he"},{"startTime":64.703,"endTime":67.738,"body":"infiltrated and took down the Cinema cartel and"},{"startTime":67.764,"endTime":70.586,"body":"its leader, the infamous El Chapo."},{"startTime":70.718,"endTime":73.102,"body":"Make no mistake about it, mike is one of"},{"startTime":73.116,"endTime":77.054,"body":"the most decorated and experienced special agents in FBI"},{"startTime":77.102,"endTime":81.43,"body":"history, and he's today's hero behind the Headlines."},{"startTime":86.47,"endTime":88.394,"body":"First, Mike, I would just like to ask"},{"startTime":88.432,"endTime":90.342,"body":"you a little bit about your background."},{"startTime":90.426,"endTime":92.39,"body":"How did you get into this line of work?"},{"startTime":92.56,"endTime":93.57,"body":"I didn't have a choice."},{"startTime":93.63,"endTime":95.594,"body":"I came from a police family."},{"startTime":95.752,"endTime":99.558,"body":"My dad and my grandfather were police officers."},{"startTime":99.714,"endTime":102.702,"body":"I didn't know you could go into another profession."},{"startTime":102.786,"endTime":107.87,"body":"But from a very young age, I grew up around cops."},{"startTime":108.61,"endTime":109.646,"body":"They were in my house."},{"startTime":109.708,"endTime":112.83,"body":"They would give me rides to sporting events."},{"startTime":112.89,"endTime":113.846,"body":"It was all I knew."},{"startTime":113.908,"endTime":117.858,"body":"So inevitably, I took a path into law enforcement."},{"startTime":117.954,"endTime":120.762,"body":"I was first a police officer of the street"},{"startTime":120.786,"endTime":123.58,"body":"cop for a little less than five years."},{"startTime":124.15,"endTime":127.382,"body":"And during that time, I had been approached by an"},{"startTime":127.396,"endTime":132.014,"body":"FBI agent who was interested in seeing if I was"},{"startTime":132.052,"endTime":134.306,"body":"interested in the FBI, which I really hadn't given a"},{"startTime":134.308,"endTime":137.8,"body":"lot of thought to, but I filled out the application."},{"startTime":138.43,"endTime":140.738,"body":"I loved being a street cop, so I"},{"startTime":140.764,"endTime":144.518,"body":"really wasn't overly concerned with the application process."},{"startTime":144.604,"endTime":147.77,"body":"I just kept showing up when and where they told me to."},{"startTime":147.82,"endTime":150.902,"body":"And then one day a letter came in"},{"startTime":150.916,"endTime":153.41,"body":"the mail, and I was off to Quantico."},{"startTime":154.21,"endTime":157.262,"body":"But it was something that I knew I"},{"startTime":157.276,"endTime":160.298,"body":"was going to enter law enforcement literally from"},{"startTime":160.324,"endTime":162.88,"body":"the age of five or six years old."},{"startTime":163.39,"endTime":165.46,"body":"It was just kind of the family business."},{"startTime":166.87,"endTime":169.274,"body":"And you grew up in Boston, the Boston area?"},{"startTime":169.312,"endTime":171.894,"body":"I grew up outside of Boston."},{"startTime":172.062,"endTime":174.626,"body":"I come from, believe it or"},{"startTime":174.628,"endTime":177.026,"body":"not, a large Irish Catholic family."},{"startTime":177.208,"endTime":181.898,"body":"And where I come from, you pretty much grow up"},{"startTime":181.924,"endTime":184.67,"body":"to be a cop, a fireman, or a criminal."},{"startTime":185.71,"endTime":187.046,"body":"I chose cop."},{"startTime":187.228,"endTime":188.81,"body":"Okay, good choice."},{"startTime":191.45,"endTime":193.398,"body":"So can you tell us how long have you"},{"startTime":193.424,"endTime":196.674,"body":"been in the FBI and just a little bit"},{"startTime":196.712,"endTime":199.82,"body":"about how you got into undercover work."},{"startTime":200.69,"endTime":204.154,"body":"Okay, so before we get to the Sinala"},{"startTime":204.202,"endTime":208.074,"body":"cartel case, I'll just explain that at that"},{"startTime":208.112,"endTime":211.93,"body":"point, I had 2022 years in the FBI."},{"startTime":212.05,"endTime":214.482,"body":"I was an undercover coordinator in"},{"startTime":214.496,"endTime":217.53,"body":"the Boston division, which means you"},{"startTime":217.64,"endTime":220.47,"body":"manage and coordinate all undercover activity."},{"startTime":221.45,"endTime":223.03,"body":"I was not a supervisor."},{"startTime":223.09,"endTime":225.274,"body":"I was not a manager."},{"startTime":225.322,"endTime":226.902,"body":"I was a street agent."},{"startTime":226.976,"endTime":229.758,"body":"But because of the unique nature of"},{"startTime":229.784,"endTime":233.514,"body":"the undercover technique, the undercover coordinator is"},{"startTime":233.552,"endTime":236.49,"body":"usually assigned to an experienced undercover agent."},{"startTime":236.54,"endTime":239.298,"body":"I had been doing undercover work at"},{"startTime":239.324,"endTime":242.9,"body":"that point for 15 years or so."},{"startTime":243.29,"endTime":246.942,"body":"And in 2009, when this case first started,"},{"startTime":247.076,"endTime":250.15,"body":"not only was I the Boston undercover coordinator,"},{"startTime":250.27,"endTime":253.21,"body":"but I was also assigned to a national"},{"startTime":253.33,"endTime":256.339,"body":"undercover team that the FBI was running."},{"startTime":256.79,"endTime":261.498,"body":"I was the operations team leader, which meant that"},{"startTime":261.524,"endTime":266.49,"body":"I literally set up the scenarios, assign the undercovers."},{"startTime":267.11,"endTime":270.69,"body":"So again, at that point, 2009,"},{"startTime":270.86,"endTime":272.73,"body":"undercover work was full time."},{"startTime":272.78,"endTime":276.39,"body":"Very few people in the FBI work undercover full time."},{"startTime":276.5,"endTime":278.84,"body":"I was fortunate enough to be one of them."},{"startTime":281.33,"endTime":284.926,"body":"What was your training in undercover work in the FBI?"},{"startTime":285.118,"endTime":288.106,"body":"My training was unlike today's FBI."},{"startTime":288.178,"endTime":290.97,"body":"There was no training when I started in the FBI."},{"startTime":292.37,"endTime":297.93,"body":"Now, there's a very intense process."},{"startTime":298.1,"endTime":302.434,"body":"If you're interested in undercover work, there's a fallacy"},{"startTime":302.482,"endTime":305.494,"body":"out there that every FBI agent works undercover."},{"startTime":305.542,"endTime":306.702,"body":"That's not true."},{"startTime":306.896,"endTime":311.01,"body":"Less than 10% of the agent population works undercover."},{"startTime":311.63,"endTime":314.286,"body":"So one out of ten agents is what's called"},{"startTime":314.348,"endTime":317.322,"body":"certified, which means you have to go through a"},{"startTime":317.336,"endTime":322.818,"body":"vetting process, a testing process, a psychological process, and"},{"startTime":322.844,"endTime":327.594,"body":"then you have to successfully complete a two week"},{"startTime":327.632,"endTime":330.93,"body":"undercover school run by the FBI."},{"startTime":331.49,"endTime":339.042,"body":"That all started in the mid 19, around 1990, 419 95."},{"startTime":339.116,"endTime":342.01,"body":"I was in the FBI before that, working undercover."},{"startTime":342.07,"endTime":345.378,"body":"So I was grandfathered into the process"},{"startTime":345.464,"endTime":348.478,"body":"if you were already working undercover prior"},{"startTime":348.514,"endTime":352.52,"body":"to the initiation of the formalized training."},{"startTime":353.03,"endTime":355.254,"body":"So when I learned, I learned through"},{"startTime":355.292,"endTime":357.19,"body":"mistakes, I learned through trial and error."},{"startTime":357.25,"endTime":358.82,"body":"I went out there and did it."},{"startTime":359.51,"endTime":362.36,"body":"I had no idea what I was doing when I first started."},{"startTime":362.81,"endTime":365.166,"body":"I was horrible at it, but I really enjoyed it."},{"startTime":365.168,"endTime":367.938,"body":"Yeah, you told a funny story about the"},{"startTime":367.964,"endTime":370.242,"body":"first time you were sent out to I"},{"startTime":370.256,"endTime":372.93,"body":"think it was a Mafia like hangout, right?"},{"startTime":373.04,"endTime":378.178,"body":"Yeah, that was the story where I"},{"startTime":378.204,"endTime":380.906,"body":"was told to go in my assignment."},{"startTime":381.038,"endTime":383.134,"body":"Well, first of all, I was selected because"},{"startTime":383.172,"endTime":385.32,"body":"I had been a cop in those days."},{"startTime":386.07,"endTime":388.75,"body":"The theory was that if you had been"},{"startTime":388.86,"endTime":390.742,"body":"a cop before, you're an agent, that you"},{"startTime":390.756,"endTime":392.938,"body":"would have natural for and undercover work, which"},{"startTime":392.964,"endTime":396.902,"body":"is ridiculous, because it's the exact opposite."},{"startTime":397.046,"endTime":398.94,"body":"A police department is a very"},{"startTime":401.07,"endTime":404.05,"body":"structured, organized chain of command."},{"startTime":405.09,"endTime":407.926,"body":"But that was just the way the FBI did it in those days."},{"startTime":407.988,"endTime":410.662,"body":"So an agent approached me, and"},{"startTime":410.676,"endTime":412.454,"body":"I said, well, what's my assignment?"},{"startTime":412.502,"endTime":414.886,"body":"And he said, well, go find out."},{"startTime":415.068,"endTime":416.494,"body":"Go find out things."},{"startTime":416.652,"endTime":419.63,"body":"That was the extent of my instruction."},{"startTime":419.69,"endTime":421.282,"body":"I was given an assignment to go"},{"startTime":421.296,"endTime":425.302,"body":"into a certain location, which I did."},{"startTime":425.436,"endTime":427.882,"body":"And the first time, as you know, the"},{"startTime":427.896,"endTime":432.19,"body":"first time I walked in the entire place"},{"startTime":432.24,"endTime":434.39,"body":"stopped talking, literally like an EF."},{"startTime":434.45,"endTime":435.61,"body":"Hutton commercial."},{"startTime":437.55,"endTime":439.558,"body":"So that got off to a bad start, and"},{"startTime":439.584,"endTime":444.43,"body":"I spent about three weeks going back and forth."},{"startTime":445.89,"endTime":447.13,"body":"I didn't look like them."},{"startTime":447.18,"endTime":448.234,"body":"I didn't dress like them."},{"startTime":448.272,"endTime":449.7,"body":"I didn't act like them."},{"startTime":450.27,"endTime":454.154,"body":"And then finally and kindly, a very elderly"},{"startTime":454.262,"endTime":457.654,"body":"Italian gentleman grabbed me around the shoulder one"},{"startTime":457.692,"endTime":461.554,"body":"night and basically said, kid, you're really nice,"},{"startTime":461.592,"endTime":464.786,"body":"but what are you doing here? Get lost."},{"startTime":464.858,"endTime":469.27,"body":"So that was my entree into undercover work."},{"startTime":469.38,"endTime":471.466,"body":"I mean, I laugh about it now, but"},{"startTime":471.588,"endTime":474.67,"body":"it was so ridiculous at the time."},{"startTime":474.84,"endTime":477.23,"body":"And now we don't put our dangerous."},{"startTime":477.29,"endTime":483.7,"body":"It just kind of, so to speak. Right."},{"startTime":484.09,"endTime":488.14,"body":"And I also think I mentioned to you another time,"},{"startTime":488.95,"endTime":491.978,"body":"one of my first undercover drug buys, when I went"},{"startTime":492.004,"endTime":496.058,"body":"to buy the drugs, the seller just stopped and said,"},{"startTime":496.144,"endTime":498.726,"body":"sorry, officer, we're out of dope tonight."},{"startTime":498.798,"endTime":502.0,"body":"So I was over two starting out."},{"startTime":503.23,"endTime":506.058,"body":"And again, I chuckle about it, but I really caught"},{"startTime":506.094,"endTime":510.41,"body":"the bug, because it really is a fascinating technique."},{"startTime":511.03,"endTime":512.618,"body":"It's very interesting."},{"startTime":512.764,"endTime":515.918,"body":"It's basically, as you get to understand it and"},{"startTime":515.943,"endTime":519.94,"body":"as you get to apply it and practice it,"},{"startTime":520.27,"endTime":525.04,"body":"it's basically a psychological chess match with bad guys."},{"startTime":526.69,"endTime":531.314,"body":"Now, I train undercover agents now, and what I tell"},{"startTime":531.352,"endTime":534.338,"body":"them is, you have to convince a bad guy that"},{"startTime":534.364,"endTime":537.518,"body":"you're as bad, if not worse, than him or her,"},{"startTime":537.664,"endTime":540.94,"body":"and you're an FBI agent, so it's not easy. Right."},{"startTime":543.31,"endTime":547.662,"body":"In court, when I've testified as an undercover, the defense"},{"startTime":547.746,"endTime":551.19,"body":"lawyers will always start their first question, well, you spent"},{"startTime":551.25,"endTime":554.27,"body":"your whole case lying to my client, and your answer"},{"startTime":554.32,"endTime":556.154,"body":"is, yes, sir, I lied to him every day."},{"startTime":556.192,"endTime":558.122,"body":"It doesn't usually work well if you tell them"},{"startTime":558.136,"endTime":561.64,"body":"you're an FBI agent and the jury understands that."},{"startTime":563.53,"endTime":565.718,"body":"You present yourself and you testify as"},{"startTime":565.744,"endTime":568.202,"body":"a professional witness, but when you're in"},{"startTime":568.216,"endTime":571.0,"body":"that role, you're one of them."},{"startTime":572.53,"endTime":574.974,"body":"Can you tell us how the El Chapo"},{"startTime":575.022,"endTime":577.082,"body":"case started and how you got involved? Yes."},{"startTime":577.096,"endTime":578.822,"body":"So in 2009, as I mentioned, I"},{"startTime":578.836,"endTime":580.962,"body":"was the undercover coordinator in Boston."},{"startTime":581.046,"endTime":584.186,"body":"I was also part of that national undercover team."},{"startTime":584.248,"endTime":586.334,"body":"So I was flat out."},{"startTime":586.432,"endTime":589.038,"body":"I was working probably a dozen"},{"startTime":589.074,"endTime":591.46,"body":"undercover operations, if not more."},{"startTime":591.97,"endTime":594.974,"body":"And there was a young agent in the Boston division that"},{"startTime":595.012,"endTime":599.07,"body":"came to see me, and he was literally a baby."},{"startTime":599.25,"endTime":602.8,"body":"I think he had two or three years in the FBI total."},{"startTime":603.13,"endTime":604.958,"body":"And he kind of hung his"},{"startTime":604.984,"endTime":606.95,"body":"head outside my office, peeking in."},{"startTime":607.0,"endTime":608.558,"body":"And finally I said, Can I help you?"},{"startTime":608.584,"endTime":611.678,"body":"And he said, Listen, I'm working with an"},{"startTime":611.704,"endTime":614.27,"body":"informant, and I think I have something."},{"startTime":614.32,"endTime":616.18,"body":"And I was told to come see you"},{"startTime":616.75,"endTime":619.25,"body":"because you could come up with something devious."},{"startTime":619.57,"endTime":621.614,"body":"So that's how the conversation started."},{"startTime":621.712,"endTime":623.198,"body":"And I said, what do you got?"},{"startTime":623.284,"endTime":625.334,"body":"And I kind of was half listening to him."},{"startTime":625.372,"endTime":628.134,"body":"I really wasn't devoting a full attention."},{"startTime":628.182,"endTime":629.622,"body":"I had a lot of stuff on my plate."},{"startTime":629.646,"endTime":632.438,"body":"And he started to tell me that he had"},{"startTime":632.464,"endTime":636.29,"body":"developed an informant who had been in prison prior,"},{"startTime":637.15,"endTime":639.158,"body":"who is now out of prison, but had been"},{"startTime":639.184,"endTime":644.202,"body":"in prison with members of the Sinaloa cartel."},{"startTime":644.286,"endTime":647.31,"body":"And as soon as he mentioned the Sinaloa cartel"},{"startTime":647.37,"endTime":652.958,"body":"at that time, in 2009, the Cinaloa cartel was"},{"startTime":652.984,"endTime":655.66,"body":"the most powerful drug organization in the world."},{"startTime":660.11,"endTime":663.702,"body":"The Sinaloa cartel had been founded in the late 60s in"},{"startTime":663.716,"endTime":666.57,"body":"the Mexican state of Sinaloa, and according to the US."},{"startTime":666.62,"endTime":669.298,"body":"Justice Department, had been responsible for importing"},{"startTime":669.334,"endTime":671.802,"body":"more than 200 tons of cocaine and"},{"startTime":671.816,"endTime":673.362,"body":"heroin into the United States."},{"startTime":673.496,"endTime":675.378,"body":"It also supplied the United States"},{"startTime":675.464,"endTime":677.422,"body":"and other markets with massive amounts"},{"startTime":677.446,"endTime":681.142,"body":"of methamphetamine, marijuana, and MDMA."},{"startTime":681.286,"endTime":683.958,"body":"Nobody knows exactly what the revenue of the"},{"startTime":683.984,"endTime":687.618,"body":"Sinaloa cartel is, but it's estimated that in"},{"startTime":687.644,"endTime":691.554,"body":"2009, it was around $40 billion a year."},{"startTime":691.712,"endTime":694.602,"body":"To put that into perspective, that's equal to"},{"startTime":694.616,"endTime":697.34,"body":"the worldwide sales of the Coca Cola company."},{"startTime":697.73,"endTime":700.41,"body":"Since the mid nineties, the cartel had been run"},{"startTime":700.46,"endTime":705.382,"body":"by pint sized drug lord joaquin Achievaldo Guzman Lorca,"},{"startTime":705.526,"endTime":709.042,"body":"commonly known as El Chapo, or Shorty. Born."},{"startTime":709.066,"endTime":711.558,"body":"The son of a poor cattle rancher, he was now"},{"startTime":711.584,"endTime":716.046,"body":"worth billions and ranked by Forbes magazine as the 41st"},{"startTime":716.108,"endTime":720.27,"body":"most powerful person in the world, ahead of Steve Jobs."},{"startTime":722.45,"endTime":723.918,"body":"And he was the world's most"},{"startTime":723.944,"endTime":726.174,"body":"wanted fugitive at that time, too."},{"startTime":726.212,"endTime":728.61,"body":"He had escaped from a prison in Mexico,"},{"startTime":728.93,"endTime":731.146,"body":"and he fled into the Mexican mountains."},{"startTime":731.278,"endTime":733.7,"body":"And for whatever reason, the Mexican government"},{"startTime":734.33,"endTime":735.966,"body":"wasn't about to go get him."},{"startTime":736.088,"endTime":738.658,"body":"So I remember this like it was yesterday."},{"startTime":738.754,"endTime":743.72,"body":"I literally felt a rush that if we had a chance"},{"startTime":744.11,"endTime":747.318,"body":"to make a case against the Cinnamon cartel, because being in"},{"startTime":747.344,"endTime":752.79,"body":"Boston, boston is not a distribution center or a core."},{"startTime":753.29,"endTime":756.99,"body":"It's just a little city in America."},{"startTime":757.37,"endTime":760.278,"body":"But as I explained to the young man and"},{"startTime":760.304,"endTime":763.794,"body":"he's a good friend of mine, and he's also"},{"startTime":763.832,"endTime":766.602,"body":"now an undercover agent, but at the time, I"},{"startTime":766.616,"endTime":770.13,"body":"explained to him these prison relationships are critical."},{"startTime":770.51,"endTime":772.338,"body":"When people go to prison who"},{"startTime":772.364,"endTime":776.0,"body":"they meet, relationships develop inside."},{"startTime":776.75,"endTime":777.862,"body":"They're like gold."},{"startTime":777.946,"endTime":779.974,"body":"It's like getting your PhD in crime"},{"startTime":780.022,"endTime":781.378,"body":"when they go to these prisons."},{"startTime":781.414,"endTime":784.878,"body":"So I wanted to interview his informant and see"},{"startTime":784.904,"endTime":787.878,"body":"if the guy was the real deal or not."},{"startTime":788.024,"endTime":791.178,"body":"And so the first thing we did was to go"},{"startTime":791.204,"endTime":794.226,"body":"into view the informant, and he was the real deal."},{"startTime":794.288,"endTime":797.36,"body":"He had been in federal prison for 17 years."},{"startTime":798.41,"endTime":803.586,"body":"He had been intimately involved with the Pablo Escobar group"},{"startTime":803.708,"endTime":807.126,"body":"out of Medea in Columbia back in the day."},{"startTime":807.308,"endTime":812.79,"body":"And like most good informants, he had a massive ego."},{"startTime":814.49,"endTime":816.258,"body":"He was always the smartest guy in the"},{"startTime":816.284,"endTime":819.318,"body":"room, which is kind of surprising if you"},{"startTime":819.344,"endTime":821.134,"body":"spent 17 years in federal prison."},{"startTime":821.182,"endTime":826.75,"body":"But the point is, they're a breed apart."},{"startTime":826.81,"endTime":829.134,"body":"So not only when the young agent came"},{"startTime":829.172,"endTime":831.15,"body":"to me, but then I meant the informant."},{"startTime":831.71,"endTime":834.5,"body":"I thought we had a chance if we set it up right."},{"startTime":834.83,"endTime":837.294,"body":"Can you tell us a little bit about the way you"},{"startTime":837.332,"endTime":841.362,"body":"met the informant and the way you kind of handled him?"},{"startTime":841.436,"endTime":843.462,"body":"I thought was very interesting"},{"startTime":843.656,"endTime":844.842,"body":"what happened at the time."},{"startTime":844.916,"endTime":846.126,"body":"And you've got to remember, and I want"},{"startTime":846.128,"endTime":848.574,"body":"to make it clear to your audience this"},{"startTime":848.612,"endTime":851.23,"body":"stuff you learn by trial and error."},{"startTime":851.35,"endTime":854.862,"body":"And I probably have made more mistakes as an"},{"startTime":854.876,"endTime":858.98,"body":"undercover agent than anyone else in the FBI history."},{"startTime":859.61,"endTime":861.706,"body":"But you learn each time you make a mistake."},{"startTime":861.778,"endTime":863.646,"body":"So I had been dealing with"},{"startTime":863.828,"endTime":866.9,"body":"informants for many, many years."},{"startTime":867.47,"endTime":869.13,"body":"That's how I was introduced in"},{"startTime":869.18,"endTime":871.17,"body":"one of my first undercover cases."},{"startTime":871.97,"endTime":874.098,"body":"I learned how to be an undercover, not by"},{"startTime":874.124,"endTime":876.622,"body":"an FBI agent, I learned by a criminal."},{"startTime":876.766,"endTime":880.554,"body":"So getting to this informant, the very first time"},{"startTime":880.592,"endTime":883.206,"body":"I met him, the other agents were there."},{"startTime":883.268,"endTime":884.638,"body":"They were all in their blue"},{"startTime":884.674,"endTime":886.798,"body":"jeans and their casual clothing."},{"startTime":886.834,"endTime":891.426,"body":"I came in with a very expensive suit, dressed up,"},{"startTime":891.488,"endTime":893.862,"body":"and I sat intentionally, I sat to the side of"},{"startTime":893.876,"endTime":896.946,"body":"him so he couldn't make direct eye contact with me."},{"startTime":897.128,"endTime":901.074,"body":"And for 2 hours, I just listened, never"},{"startTime":901.112,"endTime":903.5,"body":"said a word, never asked a question."},{"startTime":904.19,"endTime":907.64,"body":"I wanted to hear him, and I wanted to unnerve him,"},{"startTime":907.97,"endTime":910.302,"body":"which it did, because as soon as I left the room,"},{"startTime":910.376,"endTime":912.822,"body":"he made a comment that I can't repeat on the air."},{"startTime":912.896,"endTime":917.766,"body":"But he basically asked the case agent who this guy was."},{"startTime":917.888,"endTime":920.78,"body":"And we ended up becoming very close."},{"startTime":921.95,"endTime":924.39,"body":"He did a phenomenal job for us."},{"startTime":924.5,"endTime":926.502,"body":"And people think all the time they hear the"},{"startTime":926.516,"endTime":931.17,"body":"word informant, that somebody can inform on others."},{"startTime":931.34,"endTime":933.14,"body":"Everyone has a choice in life."},{"startTime":933.83,"endTime":936.886,"body":"The FBI wouldn't exist without informants."},{"startTime":937.018,"endTime":938.854,"body":"So you need to have a relate."},{"startTime":938.902,"endTime":940.962,"body":"You can never trust them a hundred percent,"},{"startTime":941.156,"endTime":943.82,"body":"nor did I ever trust him 100%."},{"startTime":944.39,"endTime":946.294,"body":"But they can get you into places"},{"startTime":946.342,"endTime":948.402,"body":"that FBI agents can't get into."},{"startTime":948.536,"endTime":952.64,"body":"So for the next three years with the case agent,"},{"startTime":953.33,"endTime":958.026,"body":"we spent thousands and thousands of hours planning this case."},{"startTime":958.208,"endTime":961.29,"body":"And what was the informance nationality?"},{"startTime":962.69,"endTime":969.13,"body":"I believe he was from Cuba, originally of Spanish descent,"},{"startTime":969.19,"endTime":973.798,"body":"but he was very educated, not in academic settings, although"},{"startTime":973.834,"endTime":976.558,"body":"I do think I think he was a college graduate."},{"startTime":976.714,"endTime":979.674,"body":"But he could put together like,"},{"startTime":979.712,"endTime":981.85,"body":"financial deals in 10 seconds."},{"startTime":981.91,"endTime":985.16,"body":"He was very savvy wow."},{"startTime":985.85,"endTime":987.258,"body":"Because he had been dealing with"},{"startTime":987.284,"endTime":990.43,"body":"the Escobars and the Sinilo cartel."},{"startTime":990.61,"endTime":992.202,"body":"And again, people so he'd been"},{"startTime":992.216,"endTime":993.378,"body":"doing this for a long time."},{"startTime":993.464,"endTime":997.15,"body":"People think these guys, they're not well educated."},{"startTime":997.21,"endTime":999.358,"body":"They may not be well educated academically,"},{"startTime":999.454,"endTime":1002.81,"body":"but streetwise and dope wise, they're brilliant."},{"startTime":1005.15,"endTime":1008.914,"body":"Informants are key in making undercover cases."},{"startTime":1009.082,"endTime":1010.674,"body":"They're usually the way in"},{"startTime":1010.712,"endTime":1012.27,"body":"to the criminal organization."},{"startTime":1012.83,"endTime":1015.858,"body":"The informant in this case, Vargas, had"},{"startTime":1015.884,"endTime":1018.234,"body":"a long criminal resume, which included working"},{"startTime":1018.272,"endTime":1021.418,"body":"with Pablo Escobar's Medellin cartel."},{"startTime":1021.574,"endTime":1024.55,"body":"He was also in possession of a massive ego."},{"startTime":1024.73,"endTime":1027.617,"body":"Despite the fact that he had been arrested twice and"},{"startTime":1027.644,"endTime":1030.862,"body":"had served a total of 17 years in federal prison,"},{"startTime":1031.006,"endTime":1034.614,"body":"he considered himself a major player in the drug world."},{"startTime":1034.771,"endTime":1037.894,"body":"Although the case depended on Vargas, the informant,"},{"startTime":1038.002,"endTime":1039.917,"body":"mike knew he had to watch him like"},{"startTime":1039.944,"endTime":1042.513,"body":"a hawk for any sign of betrayal."},{"startTime":1042.622,"endTime":1044.922,"body":"He knew that at any point during the case,"},{"startTime":1045.056,"endTime":1047.154,"body":"vargas thought he could make a better deal for"},{"startTime":1047.192,"endTime":1049.198,"body":"himself on the other side of the fence."},{"startTime":1049.354,"endTime":1052.338,"body":"He wouldn't hesitate to jump, and all"},{"startTime":1052.364,"endTime":1055.71,"body":"the undercovers, including Mike, could be killed."},{"startTime":1057.59,"endTime":1061.138,"body":"And again, believe me, we had our differences"},{"startTime":1061.174,"endTime":1064.33,"body":"and we had our blowouts, but you're literally"},{"startTime":1064.39,"endTime":1065.862,"body":"trusting these people with your lives."},{"startTime":1065.936,"endTime":1067.062,"body":"He knew that we were agents."},{"startTime":1067.136,"endTime":1069.87,"body":"He was going to introduce us to the Sinaloa cartel."},{"startTime":1070.43,"endTime":1075.762,"body":"So we need to form a trust relationship that allows all of"},{"startTime":1075.776,"endTime":1078.62,"body":"us to wake up and go to work the next day."},{"startTime":1081.23,"endTime":1084.394,"body":"And I've said this before, when a senator"},{"startTime":1084.442,"endTime":1087.846,"body":"cartel case was over, I personally got a"},{"startTime":1087.848,"endTime":1090.438,"body":"lot of credit and attemboys for that case."},{"startTime":1090.524,"endTime":1094.098,"body":"And I tell everybody who listens, if not for the"},{"startTime":1094.124,"endTime":1098.238,"body":"informant and not for the other three undercover agents who"},{"startTime":1098.264,"endTime":1101.214,"body":"I worked with, the case never would have been made."},{"startTime":1101.372,"endTime":1105.07,"body":"So I tell people, I was like Mariana Rivera."},{"startTime":1105.13,"endTime":1107.034,"body":"I just came in the night then, and"},{"startTime":1107.192,"endTime":1108.942,"body":"to clean it up, the informant and the"},{"startTime":1108.956,"endTime":1111.98,"body":"three other undercovers really made the case."},{"startTime":1112.37,"endTime":1116.374,"body":"So now you've met the informant."},{"startTime":1116.542,"endTime":1117.958,"body":"How do you proceed?"},{"startTime":1118.114,"endTime":1121.098,"body":"I'm sure you did like, an evaluation at that point to"},{"startTime":1121.124,"endTime":1124.734,"body":"decide, okay, this guy is somebody I can work with."},{"startTime":1124.892,"endTime":1126.534,"body":"And then what was the plan from that?"},{"startTime":1126.572,"endTime":1130.074,"body":"Again, at that point, I had a lot of experience, so"},{"startTime":1130.112,"endTime":1132.078,"body":"I knew that if we were actually going to take a"},{"startTime":1132.104,"endTime":1135.774,"body":"run at the Sinila cartel, we had one shot at it."},{"startTime":1135.812,"endTime":1137.0,"body":"It had to be perfect."},{"startTime":1137.45,"endTime":1140.61,"body":"So you need the right personnel, you need"},{"startTime":1140.66,"endTime":1143.322,"body":"the right manpower, you need the right plan."},{"startTime":1143.456,"endTime":1146.55,"body":"And I also knew I had worked out all my life."},{"startTime":1146.66,"endTime":1148.326,"body":"I broke into the FBI working"},{"startTime":1148.388,"endTime":1150.346,"body":"escobar in the medalline cartel."},{"startTime":1150.478,"endTime":1151.654,"body":"I was in Philadelphia."},{"startTime":1151.702,"endTime":1153.898,"body":"I wasn't in Medellin, but our squad"},{"startTime":1153.934,"endTime":1155.97,"body":"was named the Colombian Dope Squad."},{"startTime":1157.01,"endTime":1158.338,"body":"You couldn't use that anymore."},{"startTime":1158.374,"endTime":1161.422,"body":"But we were targeting Colombians and Escobar."},{"startTime":1161.506,"endTime":1164.242,"body":"So I also knew that the Cinema Cartel"},{"startTime":1164.386,"endTime":1166.314,"body":"would never have anything to do with us"},{"startTime":1166.352,"endTime":1170.37,"body":"if we were connected to the United States. All right."},{"startTime":1170.48,"endTime":1173.218,"body":"The only thing that the cartels in Mexico worry"},{"startTime":1173.254,"endTime":1177.15,"body":"about is the FBI or DEA grabbing them, because"},{"startTime":1177.2,"endTime":1179.002,"body":"they know we lock up dope dealers."},{"startTime":1179.086,"endTime":1181.818,"body":"So in this case, I came up with a"},{"startTime":1181.844,"endTime":1184.114,"body":"plan that we had to be a criminal organization"},{"startTime":1184.222,"endTime":1186.402,"body":"that had no nexus to the United States."},{"startTime":1186.536,"endTime":1189.814,"body":"So we eventually decided, because of the personnel"},{"startTime":1189.862,"endTime":1192.282,"body":"we had, we were going to be a"},{"startTime":1192.296,"endTime":1196.638,"body":"Sicilian based crime organization that was looking to"},{"startTime":1196.664,"endTime":1200.914,"body":"import cocaine and heroin from Mexico into Europe."},{"startTime":1201.082,"endTime":1206.374,"body":"And that's the way we instructed the informant"},{"startTime":1206.422,"endTime":1209.094,"body":"to go back to them and explain, hey,"},{"startTime":1209.132,"endTime":1211.186,"body":"I'm working with this group in Europe."},{"startTime":1211.378,"endTime":1212.742,"body":"Here's what they're about."},{"startTime":1212.876,"endTime":1215.106,"body":"But they have nothing to do with the United States."},{"startTime":1215.228,"endTime":1220.902,"body":"And that was a critical decision early on that I believe,"},{"startTime":1221.096,"endTime":1224.082,"body":"resulted in why the case was successful at the end."},{"startTime":1224.276,"endTime":1227.49,"body":"So he goes to Mexico, he makes contact"},{"startTime":1227.6,"endTime":1231.858,"body":"with his contacts within the santa La Car? Yes."},{"startTime":1232.004,"endTime":1235.594,"body":"We as agents, we cannot travel into Mexico legally."},{"startTime":1235.642,"endTime":1240.198,"body":"That's not permissible for obvious reasons, but"},{"startTime":1240.224,"endTime":1242.61,"body":"we can send informants into Mexico."},{"startTime":1242.93,"endTime":1246.102,"body":"So he was sent into Mexico, I believe, four or"},{"startTime":1246.116,"endTime":1250.278,"body":"five times, but after the second meeting, he had done"},{"startTime":1250.304,"endTime":1253.218,"body":"so well that he was instructed to come back to"},{"startTime":1253.244,"endTime":1256.314,"body":"meet directly with Chapo, and that's what he did."},{"startTime":1256.352,"endTime":1261.354,"body":"So once we had that, again, any"},{"startTime":1261.392,"endTime":1262.77,"body":"day, this case could blow up."},{"startTime":1262.82,"endTime":1264.642,"body":"But we just kept pushing ahead."},{"startTime":1264.776,"endTime":1268.674,"body":"And again, the informant was critical by"},{"startTime":1268.832,"endTime":1270.942,"body":"basically putting the two groups together."},{"startTime":1271.016,"endTime":1274.11,"body":"So he went into Mexico at high risk."},{"startTime":1274.67,"endTime":1275.634,"body":"He was on his own."},{"startTime":1275.672,"endTime":1276.618,"body":"We couldn't follow him."},{"startTime":1276.644,"endTime":1277.722,"body":"We couldn't protect him."},{"startTime":1277.796,"endTime":1281.202,"body":"So he'd go into Mexico for four, five, six days at"},{"startTime":1281.216,"endTime":1284.598,"body":"a time, and hopefully he came out every time, and he"},{"startTime":1284.624,"endTime":1288.702,"body":"did, and eventually he put the two groups together."},{"startTime":1288.776,"endTime":1292.854,"body":"He convinced Chapo that this European group"},{"startTime":1292.952,"endTime":1295.978,"body":"was interested in setting up an arrangement."},{"startTime":1296.134,"endTime":1298.014,"body":"Was there a name for the European group"},{"startTime":1298.052,"endTime":1300.01,"body":"or he was just saying a European crime?"},{"startTime":1300.07,"endTime":1301.006,"body":"The Italians."},{"startTime":1301.138,"endTime":1303.138,"body":"We were supposed to be Sicilian, so he"},{"startTime":1303.164,"endTime":1305.334,"body":"just referred to us as the Italians. Okay."},{"startTime":1305.372,"endTime":1306.042,"body":"Another question."},{"startTime":1306.116,"endTime":1307.914,"body":"When he was in Mexico, did"},{"startTime":1307.952,"endTime":1309.798,"body":"you have any contact with him?"},{"startTime":1309.884,"endTime":1312.282,"body":"Do you have any way to monitor what he was saying?"},{"startTime":1312.356,"endTime":1315.92,"body":"And that's why I give him a lot of credit."},{"startTime":1316.49,"endTime":1319.474,"body":"He went in there, no FBI"},{"startTime":1319.522,"endTime":1322.018,"body":"assistance, no US government assistance."},{"startTime":1322.174,"endTime":1324.69,"body":"He went up into the mountains to meet with Chapo."},{"startTime":1325.19,"endTime":1329.01,"body":"He was escorted by Mexican military personnel."},{"startTime":1330.47,"endTime":1333.078,"body":"Very dangerous game. Not a game."},{"startTime":1333.164,"endTime":1334.254,"body":"I shouldn't even call it a game."},{"startTime":1334.292,"endTime":1337.05,"body":"Very dangerous assignment. Right."},{"startTime":1337.22,"endTime":1339.018,"body":"Had he met chapel before?"},{"startTime":1339.164,"endTime":1342.474,"body":"No, in those two meetings, when he met with the"},{"startTime":1342.512,"endTime":1347.562,"body":"underlings in Mexico, he was convincing enough, and this is"},{"startTime":1347.576,"endTime":1351.334,"body":"where the credibility from the 17 years in federal prison,"},{"startTime":1351.382,"endTime":1353.43,"body":"he can throw around the right names."},{"startTime":1353.87,"endTime":1356.25,"body":"Okay, so he was the real deal"},{"startTime":1356.3,"endTime":1357.702,"body":"is the best way to describe it."},{"startTime":1357.716,"endTime":1361.33,"body":"He was a class A criminal, and luckily"},{"startTime":1361.39,"endTime":1364.146,"body":"he was working for us at the time. Wow."},{"startTime":1364.268,"endTime":1366.186,"body":"And what was the arrangement with him?"},{"startTime":1366.248,"endTime":1368.878,"body":"What was he going to get out of this? Reduced."},{"startTime":1368.914,"endTime":1372.918,"body":"Again, it's a very odd story, but when he was"},{"startTime":1372.944,"endTime":1376.47,"body":"arrested the last time, before he went to federal prison"},{"startTime":1377.03,"endTime":1381.342,"body":"under the US government forfeiture laws, the government seized a"},{"startTime":1381.356,"endTime":1385.762,"body":"bunch of his properties, which included some properties that belong"},{"startTime":1385.906,"endTime":1389.706,"body":"or were used by family members, and all he wanted"},{"startTime":1389.768,"endTime":1391.76,"body":"was to get those properties back."},{"startTime":1392.51,"endTime":1399.066,"body":"So his incentive to cooperate was literally to, I"},{"startTime":1399.068,"endTime":1402.69,"body":"guess, take care of his family with these properties."},{"startTime":1403.73,"endTime":1405.93,"body":"And these were properties in the United States?"},{"startTime":1406.04,"endTime":1408.57,"body":"In the United States that the US."},{"startTime":1408.62,"endTime":1409.966,"body":"Government had seized."},{"startTime":1410.158,"endTime":1414.27,"body":"And eventually, because he performed well, those"},{"startTime":1414.32,"endTime":1417.32,"body":"properties were eventually returned to him well."},{"startTime":1418.85,"endTime":1421.47,"body":"So he makes three or four trips into"},{"startTime":1421.52,"endTime":1428.326,"body":"Mexico and he arranges for the Italian gang"},{"startTime":1428.398,"endTime":1432.45,"body":"to meet with the Sinaloa cartel. Is that correct? Yes."},{"startTime":1432.5,"endTime":1435.258,"body":"And you got to understand, when you have an"},{"startTime":1435.284,"endTime":1438.14,"body":"informant as good as an informant he was."},{"startTime":1438.65,"endTime":1441.802,"body":"You have to instruct them so that they know ABC."},{"startTime":1441.886,"endTime":1443.946,"body":"You have to tell them this and this"},{"startTime":1444.008,"endTime":1445.77,"body":"and you got to stick to the script."},{"startTime":1446.33,"endTime":1447.706,"body":"So smartly."},{"startTime":1447.838,"endTime":1450.922,"body":"When they said we'd like to connect with the Italians"},{"startTime":1450.946,"endTime":1453.87,"body":"he says, hey, you got to talk to them directly."},{"startTime":1454.31,"endTime":1456.342,"body":"I don't represent them, I'm just trying to"},{"startTime":1456.416,"endTime":1458.36,"body":"make a buck here, putting people together."},{"startTime":1458.99,"endTime":1462.918,"body":"So he arranged that the only way the negotiations would"},{"startTime":1462.944,"endTime":1465.798,"body":"occur would be directly with the Italians, which is what"},{"startTime":1465.824,"endTime":1470.238,"body":"we wanted obviously because we had a team ready to"},{"startTime":1470.264,"endTime":1473.094,"body":"go if and when we were able to meet them."},{"startTime":1473.132,"endTime":1475.318,"body":"And the reason we went with the Sicilian"},{"startTime":1475.354,"endTime":1477.558,"body":"is we had an undercover agent on the"},{"startTime":1477.584,"endTime":1481.486,"body":"East Coast that spoke Sicilian, had worked international"},{"startTime":1481.558,"endTime":1484.078,"body":"undercover and would be perfect for the role."},{"startTime":1484.234,"endTime":1486.814,"body":"So we lined up as the leader of the gang."},{"startTime":1486.862,"endTime":1488.226,"body":"Yeah, we lined up."},{"startTime":1488.348,"endTime":1490.726,"body":"It took us six to twelve months to get our ducks"},{"startTime":1490.738,"endTime":1493.282,"body":"in a row because we knew they'd check us eventually."},{"startTime":1493.366,"endTime":1496.41,"body":"They have attorneys, they have private investigators."},{"startTime":1496.73,"endTime":1498.75,"body":"We were going to be vetted at some point"},{"startTime":1498.86,"endTime":1500.718,"body":"so that takes a little time to set up."},{"startTime":1500.744,"endTime":1504.034,"body":"So we went to our friends in law enforcement"},{"startTime":1504.082,"endTime":1508.146,"body":"overseas and basically created this group and if anybody"},{"startTime":1508.208,"endTime":1510.898,"body":"were to check, we appeared to be legitimate."},{"startTime":1510.994,"endTime":1514.99,"body":"So you had to talk to European law enforcement"},{"startTime":1515.11,"endTime":1518.718,"body":"so that if the Sinaloa cartel checked they could"},{"startTime":1518.804,"endTime":1521.998,"body":"back it up that this group exists."},{"startTime":1522.094,"endTime":1524.61,"body":"There's something in law enforcement undercover work"},{"startTime":1524.66,"endTime":1528.342,"body":"called backstopping, which means you have to"},{"startTime":1528.416,"endTime":1530.838,"body":"create a persona, either an individual or"},{"startTime":1530.864,"endTime":1534.73,"body":"business persona that will withstand scrutiny."},{"startTime":1534.79,"endTime":1535.966,"body":"It's very complicated."},{"startTime":1536.038,"endTime":1538.954,"body":"I'm not going to reveal the trade craft"},{"startTime":1539.002,"endTime":1541.338,"body":"involved but they're going to check on you."},{"startTime":1541.364,"endTime":1544.518,"body":"You can't be a bad guy and tell somebody, hey, I'm so"},{"startTime":1544.544,"endTime":1547.11,"body":"and so, or I want to do 20 tons of dope."},{"startTime":1548.03,"endTime":1551.01,"body":"They vet it just like a business person would."},{"startTime":1551.18,"endTime":1554.478,"body":"So we had to go around the world literally and set"},{"startTime":1554.504,"endTime":1557.202,"body":"this up because as I said at the beginning we had"},{"startTime":1557.216,"endTime":1560.478,"body":"one shot at these guys, one mistake and we were done."},{"startTime":1560.564,"endTime":1563.31,"body":"So you had to establish that this group had a history."},{"startTime":1563.42,"endTime":1564.21,"body":"Had a history."},{"startTime":1564.32,"endTime":1567.93,"body":"The names were known internationally."},{"startTime":1569.93,"endTime":1571.182,"body":"For instance, we did a lot of"},{"startTime":1571.196,"endTime":1572.938,"body":"work with the Spanish national police."},{"startTime":1572.974,"endTime":1575.782,"body":"We did a lot of work with the Italian national police."},{"startTime":1575.926,"endTime":1577.734,"body":"We were all over the world and the"},{"startTime":1577.772,"endTime":1581.814,"body":"FBI supported us because we literally were going"},{"startTime":1581.852,"endTime":1584.766,"body":"after the top drug organization in the world."},{"startTime":1584.888,"endTime":1589.83,"body":"Okay, so your informant arranges this meeting, I believe"},{"startTime":1589.88,"endTime":1592.434,"body":"it was supposed to take place in the first"},{"startTime":1592.472,"endTime":1596.19,"body":"meeting took place in February of 2010."},{"startTime":1596.3,"endTime":1597.75,"body":"Is that 2010? Correct."},{"startTime":1597.8,"endTime":1600.498,"body":"Because it took us about a year to set it up. Okay."},{"startTime":1600.584,"endTime":1603.498,"body":"And do you want to describe your team that"},{"startTime":1603.524,"endTime":1605.806,"body":"was going to meet with the Sinaloa cartel?"},{"startTime":1605.938,"endTime":1607.698,"body":"Right, so for, like I said, for about"},{"startTime":1607.724,"endTime":1609.306,"body":"a year we were setting this up and"},{"startTime":1609.368,"endTime":1611.878,"body":"my job was to basically be the puppet"},{"startTime":1611.914,"endTime":1614.854,"body":"master behind the scenes, pulling the undercover strings."},{"startTime":1615.022,"endTime":1617.334,"body":"And I knew exactly who I wanted to"},{"startTime":1617.372,"endTime":1620.66,"body":"be working and what their roles would be."},{"startTime":1621.11,"endTime":1626.782,"body":"So I took three undercovers, two from the national"},{"startTime":1626.866,"endTime":1630.13,"body":"team that I worked with, and one from Boston"},{"startTime":1630.25,"endTime":1633.32,"body":"and another one from the East Coast city."},{"startTime":1633.77,"endTime":1636.342,"body":"So I had four undercovered lined up, and the"},{"startTime":1636.356,"endTime":1638.778,"body":"Sicilian speaker was going to be the boss, El"},{"startTime":1638.804,"endTime":1642.33,"body":"Hefe, and he was perfect for the role."},{"startTime":1643.43,"endTime":1648.006,"body":"We're meeting them in, as you said, February of 2010."},{"startTime":1648.188,"endTime":1651.774,"body":"Right around Christmas of 2009, my good friend"},{"startTime":1651.812,"endTime":1655.17,"body":"the Sicilian was offered a private sector job"},{"startTime":1655.22,"endTime":1657.99,"body":"in retirement and retired from the FBI."},{"startTime":1658.67,"endTime":1664.182,"body":"Apologize profusely, but I wished him well, but he"},{"startTime":1664.196,"endTime":1666.166,"body":"got pulled out of us at the last minute."},{"startTime":1666.238,"endTime":1671.226,"body":"So we had to overcome and adapt and adjust, and we did."},{"startTime":1671.348,"endTime":1673.458,"body":"And ironically, I ended up"},{"startTime":1673.484,"endTime":1675.86,"body":"selecting myself to replace him."},{"startTime":1676.97,"endTime":1679.698,"body":"And even though I don't speak Sicilian or"},{"startTime":1679.724,"endTime":1683.49,"body":"Italian or Spanish and sometimes struggle with English,"},{"startTime":1685.95,"endTime":1687.73,"body":"I knew that I could do the role."},{"startTime":1688.11,"endTime":1691.68,"body":"You basically had 2025 years of undercover experience."},{"startTime":1692.91,"endTime":1693.794,"body":"To the FBI."},{"startTime":1693.842,"endTime":1695.59,"body":"This was like our Super Bowl."},{"startTime":1696.87,"endTime":1698.798,"body":"At this point in his career, Mike"},{"startTime":1698.834,"endTime":1700.966,"body":"was a veteran of undercover work."},{"startTime":1701.148,"endTime":1704.354,"body":"He had infiltrated the Russian mob, three Italian"},{"startTime":1704.402,"endTime":1708.17,"body":"mafia families, and a major Pakistani heroin importer."},{"startTime":1708.29,"endTime":1711.154,"body":"Undercover choose roles that they're familiar with."},{"startTime":1711.312,"endTime":1714.17,"body":"For this job, Mike used the cover of an irascible"},{"startTime":1714.23,"endTime":1717.66,"body":"Italian mob boss named Del Viejo, the Old Man."},{"startTime":1718.17,"endTime":1720.118,"body":"He was familiar with this role because of"},{"startTime":1720.144,"endTime":1723.17,"body":"his dealings over the years infiltrating Italian crime"},{"startTime":1723.23,"endTime":1726.18,"body":"families, so he knew the character well."},{"startTime":1727.29,"endTime":1731.398,"body":"So with the other three undercovers and myself and"},{"startTime":1731.424,"endTime":1735.262,"body":"the informant and the case team, the young agent"},{"startTime":1735.336,"endTime":1739.33,"body":"who was helped by other senior agents, we probably"},{"startTime":1739.38,"endTime":1743.014,"body":"had 1015 guys assigned to the case."},{"startTime":1743.112,"endTime":1745.198,"body":"And it literally was an allstar team."},{"startTime":1745.224,"endTime":1749.282,"body":"It was a very, very competent, experienced,"},{"startTime":1749.366,"endTime":1752.638,"body":"successful team, which was the only way"},{"startTime":1752.664,"endTime":1754.126,"body":"we could have attacked this group."},{"startTime":1754.248,"endTime":1756.61,"body":"So you arranged to meet where?"},{"startTime":1756.78,"endTime":1759.83,"body":"And again, we set up our organization."},{"startTime":1760.01,"endTime":1762.758,"body":"We mirrored the cinema cartel."},{"startTime":1762.854,"endTime":1764.938,"body":"We knew how they were structured, who"},{"startTime":1764.964,"endTime":1766.546,"body":"was in charge, how they did things."},{"startTime":1766.608,"endTime":1768.6,"body":"We basically did the same thing."},{"startTime":1768.93,"endTime":1772.522,"body":"So the first meeting now, they knew that"},{"startTime":1772.536,"endTime":1775.018,"body":"we were from Europe, and we invited them"},{"startTime":1775.044,"endTime":1778.93,"body":"to Europe, initially hoping that they wouldn't accept."},{"startTime":1779.49,"endTime":1781.186,"body":"And then we said, you know what?"},{"startTime":1781.308,"endTime":1785.254,"body":"The cops watch us over here all the time, so"},{"startTime":1785.292,"endTime":1787.838,"body":"let's meet somewhere in neutral and just have a vacation."},{"startTime":1787.934,"endTime":1789.286,"body":"Let's meet in the States."},{"startTime":1789.468,"endTime":1791.71,"body":"So that's how we snuck back in, because"},{"startTime":1791.76,"endTime":1793.93,"body":"we had to establish what's called venue."},{"startTime":1794.49,"endTime":1796.822,"body":"In order to prosecute crimes in the United States,"},{"startTime":1796.896,"endTime":1799.162,"body":"crimes have to be committed within the United States."},{"startTime":1799.236,"endTime":1799.98,"body":"Got it?"},{"startTime":1800.79,"endTime":1804.13,"body":"So they were very appreciative that we told"},{"startTime":1804.18,"endTime":1806.962,"body":"them, don't come to our homes because the"},{"startTime":1806.976,"endTime":1809.506,"body":"cops are going to identify you. Right."},{"startTime":1809.568,"endTime":1810.994,"body":"They're watching us all the time."},{"startTime":1811.032,"endTime":1812.174,"body":"So we'll go to Miami."},{"startTime":1812.222,"endTime":1814.418,"body":"No one knows you in Miami. We'll go to Miami."},{"startTime":1814.454,"endTime":1817.078,"body":"So we set up this meeting in Miami for"},{"startTime":1817.104,"endTime":1821.4,"body":"the initial meeting, which is again, that February 2010."},{"startTime":1823.05,"endTime":1824.47,"body":"You got to understand there was"},{"startTime":1824.52,"endTime":1826.51,"body":"a tremendous amount of pressure."},{"startTime":1827.13,"endTime":1829.714,"body":"I can laugh and joke, I'm retired now and all that,"},{"startTime":1829.752,"endTime":1835.39,"body":"but at the time, the FBI was like, high strung."},{"startTime":1836.25,"endTime":1837.958,"body":"This was like a big deal."},{"startTime":1838.104,"endTime":1840.262,"body":"All right, so there was a lot of"},{"startTime":1840.276,"endTime":1842.95,"body":"pressure on us to perform and to succeed."},{"startTime":1843.27,"endTime":1845.638,"body":"We set up this meeting, the four"},{"startTime":1845.664,"endTime":1847.666,"body":"of us, the four undercovers go."},{"startTime":1847.788,"endTime":1850.5,"body":"I brought in a female undercover to help us."},{"startTime":1850.83,"endTime":1856.478,"body":"We set up this operation in a high rise condo"},{"startTime":1856.514,"endTime":1859.87,"body":"right on the Atlantic Ocean, beautiful view, et cetera."},{"startTime":1860.31,"endTime":1863.7,"body":"And when we were preparing and right as the"},{"startTime":1865.29,"endTime":1869.042,"body":"Cinema representative was coming to meet us, I noticed"},{"startTime":1869.066,"endTime":1872.474,"body":"that the atmosphere was very tense and stressful."},{"startTime":1872.522,"endTime":1874.894,"body":"And I had worked with these other three guys"},{"startTime":1874.992,"endTime":1879.482,"body":"all my career, and they're very funny guys, they're"},{"startTime":1879.506,"endTime":1882.91,"body":"very accomplished guys, but everybody was kind of uptight."},{"startTime":1883.47,"endTime":1886.966,"body":"And I just thought as the team leader, it"},{"startTime":1886.968,"endTime":1888.734,"body":"was my job to kind of break the ice."},{"startTime":1888.782,"endTime":1891.634,"body":"So I was originally dressed in a very"},{"startTime":1891.672,"endTime":1894.61,"body":"expensive suit, jewelry and blah, blah, blah."},{"startTime":1894.93,"endTime":1896.578,"body":"But I had noticed that in the"},{"startTime":1896.604,"endTime":1900.31,"body":"bathroom there was a purple velour bathrobe."},{"startTime":1900.93,"endTime":1903.97,"body":"So with the cameras running, I took off the nice"},{"startTime":1904.02,"endTime":1906.634,"body":"suit and I put on the bathrobe and came out"},{"startTime":1906.792,"endTime":1909.73,"body":"and it completely busted the whole thing open."},{"startTime":1909.78,"endTime":1911.47,"body":"Everybody started to relax."},{"startTime":1912.39,"endTime":1915.72,"body":"And again, we later found out that"},{"startTime":1916.29,"endTime":1918.478,"body":"the representative went back to Chapel and"},{"startTime":1918.504,"endTime":1921.06,"body":"said, hey, the Boston even dressed up."},{"startTime":1923.95,"endTime":1927.362,"body":"And the prosecutors later, when we went"},{"startTime":1927.376,"endTime":1930.158,"body":"to court, the prosecutors always referred to"},{"startTime":1930.184,"endTime":1931.734,"body":"that meeting, not the first meeting."},{"startTime":1931.782,"endTime":1934.074,"body":"They always refer to it as the bathrobe meeting."},{"startTime":1934.122,"endTime":1938.198,"body":"So again, it's humorous, but it broke the"},{"startTime":1938.224,"endTime":1941.85,"body":"ice and it just showed the Sinaloa cartel"},{"startTime":1941.91,"endTime":1944.834,"body":"that these guys, they're the real deal."},{"startTime":1944.872,"endTime":1946.73,"body":"They don't even get dressed up for these things, right?"},{"startTime":1946.78,"endTime":1947.74,"body":"They don't really."},{"startTime":1950.09,"endTime":1950.778,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1950.924,"endTime":1955.7,"body":"That first day, we spent 4 hours negotiating with them."},{"startTime":1956.63,"endTime":1960.526,"body":"When I say them, they had sent somebody named Manuel"},{"startTime":1960.658,"endTime":1964.246,"body":"Gutierrez Guzman, who was the first cousin of Chapo."},{"startTime":1964.438,"endTime":1966.49,"body":"He was their spokesman."},{"startTime":1966.61,"endTime":1969.51,"body":"And we hit it off from that first"},{"startTime":1969.56,"endTime":1973.158,"body":"day, and we were talking crazy amounts of"},{"startTime":1973.184,"endTime":1976.278,"body":"dope within the first hour, basically."},{"startTime":1976.424,"endTime":1978.562,"body":"So you come out in a bathrobe."},{"startTime":1978.706,"endTime":1980.842,"body":"I remember you told me your hair was slick."},{"startTime":1980.926,"endTime":1983.142,"body":"You know, the batch, you were kind of like"},{"startTime":1983.276,"endTime":1986.082,"body":"going around like, you want a piece of me?"},{"startTime":1986.156,"endTime":1987.56,"body":"Like this kind of stuff."},{"startTime":1989.69,"endTime":1991.458,"body":"Yeah, I had a little fun with it."},{"startTime":1991.544,"endTime":1994.1,"body":"It's on video, but no one's ever going to see that."},{"startTime":1995.75,"endTime":1998.358,"body":"But what happened was now I was"},{"startTime":1998.384,"endTime":2000.846,"body":"supposed to be the equivalent of Chapo."},{"startTime":2000.918,"endTime":2004.886,"body":"I'm the head of this Sicilian organization now, so I'm going"},{"startTime":2004.888,"endTime":2007.442,"body":"to act like Chapel would act, which is you don't get"},{"startTime":2007.456,"endTime":2009.102,"body":"it to the nuts and bolts of the meeting."},{"startTime":2009.186,"endTime":2012.062,"body":"I took the pretty undercover and we went out and sat on"},{"startTime":2012.076,"endTime":2014.43,"body":"the deck and got a tan and had a couple of drinks."},{"startTime":2014.49,"endTime":2016.31,"body":"And whenever."},{"startTime":2017.05,"endTime":2018.446,"body":"Something important would happen."},{"startTime":2018.508,"endTime":2019.814,"body":"One of the undercover would come"},{"startTime":2019.852,"endTime":2020.954,"body":"out, whisper in my ear."},{"startTime":2020.992,"endTime":2022.178,"body":"I'd whisper back."},{"startTime":2022.324,"endTime":2024.53,"body":"I paid Manuel no attention."},{"startTime":2025.09,"endTime":2030.134,"body":"And again, people probably think I'm sound crazy."},{"startTime":2030.232,"endTime":2031.07,"body":"This stuff works."},{"startTime":2031.12,"endTime":2032.33,"body":"I've done it forever."},{"startTime":2033.31,"endTime":2035.478,"body":"And you just don't walk up to a dope"},{"startTime":2035.514,"endTime":2038.366,"body":"dealer from the lower cartel in five minutes and"},{"startTime":2038.488,"endTime":2040.194,"body":"tell them you're deep in darker circus."},{"startTime":2040.242,"endTime":2042.28,"body":"I wouldn't even speak to them."},{"startTime":2042.91,"endTime":2044.738,"body":"So you're out taking a tan with your"},{"startTime":2044.764,"endTime":2050.702,"body":"girlfriend balcony on the 30th floor, right?"},{"startTime":2050.835,"endTime":2051.83,"body":"That's funny."},{"startTime":2053.409,"endTime":2054.76,"body":"I got a nice ten."},{"startTime":2059.87,"endTime":2062.0,"body":"This meeting was incredibly important."},{"startTime":2062.69,"endTime":2065.409,"body":"The FBI had to convince members of the Sinilo"},{"startTime":2065.469,"endTime":2068.898,"body":"Cartel, who were highly suspicious that the people they"},{"startTime":2068.924,"endTime":2071.85,"body":"were dealing with were really Italian criminals."},{"startTime":2072.35,"endTime":2077.19,"body":"Mike was their leader, so Mike led the way as El Viejo."},{"startTime":2077.51,"endTime":2080.658,"body":"Now, Mike is not a trained actor, but like a"},{"startTime":2080.684,"endTime":2085.378,"body":"great actor, he inhabited this bold and flamboyant character strutting"},{"startTime":2085.414,"endTime":2088.318,"body":"around the room in a colorful silk robe and shouting"},{"startTime":2088.353,"endTime":2091.76,"body":"orders to his minions, and he pulled it off."},{"startTime":2093.469,"endTime":2096.138,"body":"And when I told Washington we had a chance to meet"},{"startTime":2096.164,"endTime":2100.1,"body":"the Sinner Cartel, they were like, Meet them next week."},{"startTime":2101.39,"endTime":2102.466,"body":"No, I'm dead serious."},{"startTime":2102.538,"endTime":2104.598,"body":"And I was like, yeah, I say we"},{"startTime":2104.624,"endTime":2106.278,"body":"can't meet them for maybe a year."},{"startTime":2106.364,"endTime":2107.766,"body":"And they're like, what are you talking about?"},{"startTime":2107.888,"endTime":2110.874,"body":"But the boots on the ground that do this"},{"startTime":2110.912,"endTime":2114.93,"body":"thing regularly, we understand these, but sometimes the people"},{"startTime":2114.98,"endTime":2119.238,"body":"in position of authority and supervision haven't done it"},{"startTime":2119.264,"endTime":2122.746,"body":"before, so they think this stuff just happens magically."},{"startTime":2122.878,"endTime":2123.21,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2123.26,"endTime":2124.94,"body":"It doesn't, right? No."},{"startTime":2125.81,"endTime":2128.35,"body":"You have to look like who you're"},{"startTime":2128.41,"endTime":2131.334,"body":"pretending to be at every moment, right."},{"startTime":2131.432,"endTime":2134.922,"body":"So you can't be dressed when you do this stuff."},{"startTime":2135.056,"endTime":2136.986,"body":"I've taught people this all the time."},{"startTime":2137.168,"endTime":2138.678,"body":"From the second I walk out of"},{"startTime":2138.704,"endTime":2140.634,"body":"my house where I really live."},{"startTime":2140.792,"endTime":2143.658,"body":"From that second on, I'm that other person."},{"startTime":2143.804,"endTime":2146.598,"body":"I'm that undercover persona, and I have to"},{"startTime":2146.624,"endTime":2149.17,"body":"expect I'm being followed, I'm being watched."},{"startTime":2149.29,"endTime":2151.114,"body":"If you don't have that mindset,"},{"startTime":2151.222,"endTime":2153.33,"body":"something bad is going to happen. All right?"},{"startTime":2153.44,"endTime":2155.466,"body":"I think, Ralph, you and I talked about it."},{"startTime":2155.588,"endTime":2158.442,"body":"There's a bridge outside of Boston that when I"},{"startTime":2158.456,"endTime":2161.694,"body":"hit this bridge, I become that other person."},{"startTime":2161.792,"endTime":2164.274,"body":"I have to. All right."},{"startTime":2164.432,"endTime":2168.718,"body":"Now that I'm retired, it's so much nicer"},{"startTime":2168.754,"endTime":2171.75,"body":"not to have to be two people. Yeah."},{"startTime":2171.8,"endTime":2174.91,"body":"But when you're doing the Cinema cartel,"},{"startTime":2175.09,"endTime":2180.594,"body":"it really is a psychological challenge. Right. Okay."},{"startTime":2180.752,"endTime":2182.442,"body":"Now, if they thought if we act"},{"startTime":2182.516,"endTime":2185.25,"body":"think, dress, talk like cops yeah."},{"startTime":2185.3,"endTime":2188.034,"body":"You're going to never see them away, right? Of course."},{"startTime":2188.192,"endTime":2191.442,"body":"So you got this clown out with a bathrobe on his"},{"startTime":2191.456,"endTime":2193.758,"body":"hair, having a cocktail in the middle of the day."},{"startTime":2193.844,"endTime":2196.398,"body":"Well, I don't know who these guys are, but"},{"startTime":2196.424,"endTime":2198.33,"body":"they're not FBI agents, I can tell you that."},{"startTime":2198.38,"endTime":2200.05,"body":"And she was in a bikini."},{"startTime":2200.23,"endTime":2201.74,"body":"She was, yeah."},{"startTime":2202.31,"endTime":2203.862,"body":"So you wouldn't expect to see an"},{"startTime":2203.876,"endTime":2206.322,"body":"FBI agent in a bikini either. No."},{"startTime":2206.456,"endTime":2208.482,"body":"Yeah, that's funny. Wow."},{"startTime":2208.616,"endTime":2210.982,"body":"And this all came out later in court,"},{"startTime":2211.066,"endTime":2214.302,"body":"and I was testifying to some of this,"},{"startTime":2214.376,"endTime":2216.57,"body":"and the jury was literally laughing."},{"startTime":2217.37,"endTime":2222.198,"body":"It was a very serious process, but"},{"startTime":2222.224,"endTime":2225.174,"body":"they were like, wow, I didn't know."},{"startTime":2225.212,"endTime":2228.09,"body":"I thought, like, Ephraim Zimbalis Jr. Did this stuff."},{"startTime":2228.14,"endTime":2229.074,"body":"I didn't know these guys"},{"startTime":2229.112,"endTime":2232.446,"body":"wore bathrobes and strutted around."},{"startTime":2232.508,"endTime":2236.346,"body":"So we set it up the right way, and I had told"},{"startTime":2236.408,"endTime":2240.69,"body":"them that I was bringing my guys to relax and vacation."},{"startTime":2241.13,"endTime":2242.71,"body":"So we took him out to dinner."},{"startTime":2242.77,"endTime":2246.45,"body":"We went out dancing, just doing the necessary things."},{"startTime":2246.62,"endTime":2251.442,"body":"So the meeting kind of was serious business."},{"startTime":2251.516,"endTime":2254.67,"body":"And then you entertain them afterwards. Right."},{"startTime":2254.78,"endTime":2257.886,"body":"When you're an undercover agent, people"},{"startTime":2257.948,"endTime":2259.734,"body":"think you're talking what we call"},{"startTime":2259.772,"endTime":2263.3,"body":"dirty are you talking criminal nonstop. You're not."},{"startTime":2263.69,"endTime":2265.566,"body":"You have to spend hours and hours."},{"startTime":2265.628,"endTime":2269.158,"body":"It's just like gaining friendship or dating."},{"startTime":2269.254,"endTime":2270.222,"body":"You have to establish a"},{"startTime":2270.236,"endTime":2271.88,"body":"relationship with the other people."},{"startTime":2272.21,"endTime":2274.762,"body":"So you do natural things. You go out to dinner."},{"startTime":2274.786,"endTime":2276.022,"body":"You go out for drinks."},{"startTime":2276.166,"endTime":2279.366,"body":"You want them to like you, okay."},{"startTime":2279.548,"endTime":2280.974,"body":"And get a sense of who you"},{"startTime":2281.012,"endTime":2285.594,"body":"are, which is actually a false sense. Right."},{"startTime":2285.752,"endTime":2288.86,"body":"And I tell people when I do my training, I tell people."},{"startTime":2289.97,"endTime":2291.742,"body":"And it was pretty much the same with the Sin"},{"startTime":2291.766,"endTime":2294.898,"body":"Aloe, but I did a lot of organized crime undercover"},{"startTime":2294.934,"endTime":2298.234,"body":"work the wise guys, the Mafia, blah, blah, blah."},{"startTime":2298.402,"endTime":2301.71,"body":"And with those guys, they want to talk about"},{"startTime":2301.76,"endTime":2305.12,"body":"criminal activity the least amount of time as possible."},{"startTime":2305.63,"endTime":2308.55,"body":"So you could be with somebody for two, 4 hours,"},{"startTime":2308.66,"endTime":2311.84,"body":"and you might get three minutes of dirty talk."},{"startTime":2312.17,"endTime":2314.78,"body":"Well, you have to fill the time with something else."},{"startTime":2315.35,"endTime":2317.85,"body":"You can't be a doofus, or"},{"startTime":2318.02,"endTime":2320.13,"body":"you got to talk about something."},{"startTime":2320.18,"endTime":2322.4,"body":"You like sports, hobbies, whatever."},{"startTime":2322.73,"endTime":2325.782,"body":"But you got to be engaged with these guys, because at the"},{"startTime":2325.796,"endTime":2330.006,"body":"end of the day, they want to do business with you. Yeah."},{"startTime":2330.068,"endTime":2330.33,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2330.38,"endTime":2333.718,"body":"So you have that initial meeting in February"},{"startTime":2333.814,"endTime":2338.49,"body":"of 2010, and with Chapel's first cousin."},{"startTime":2339.29,"endTime":2340.686,"body":"And then what happens?"},{"startTime":2340.868,"endTime":2343.014,"body":"Well, again, when we had to get used to this"},{"startTime":2343.052,"endTime":2346.218,"body":"in the case, we would have these meetings, and then"},{"startTime":2346.244,"endTime":2348.942,"body":"they would obviously go back to Mexico, or he would"},{"startTime":2348.956,"endTime":2351.894,"body":"go back to Mexico, and we had to wait weeks"},{"startTime":2351.932,"endTime":2356.3,"body":"or months before we could find out the next step."},{"startTime":2356.81,"endTime":2358.242,"body":"It wasn't like we were meeting with"},{"startTime":2358.256,"endTime":2360.642,"body":"these guys around the corner every day."},{"startTime":2360.776,"endTime":2363.51,"body":"So we would meet with Manuel."},{"startTime":2363.83,"endTime":2367.11,"body":"He would go back to Mexico."},{"startTime":2368.09,"endTime":2371.818,"body":"They were very disciplined about phone conversations."},{"startTime":2371.914,"endTime":2374.862,"body":"They wouldn't talk on the phone, hardly at"},{"startTime":2374.876,"endTime":2378.51,"body":"all, other than to have arranged logistics."},{"startTime":2379.85,"endTime":2383.322,"body":"So when we left a meeting, we never knew if we"},{"startTime":2383.336,"endTime":2387.91,"body":"would have another meeting until we got a response from Mexico."},{"startTime":2388.09,"endTime":2388.902,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2389.096,"endTime":2390.954,"body":"So that February meeting back into"},{"startTime":2390.992,"endTime":2393.162,"body":"the mountains, sit down with Chapel. Yeah."},{"startTime":2393.236,"endTime":2395.73,"body":"Everything's face to face. Right."},{"startTime":2395.9,"endTime":2399.738,"body":"And the informant it's too dangerous to send the"},{"startTime":2399.764,"endTime":2403.46,"body":"informant in there, like, over and over again."},{"startTime":2404.09,"endTime":2407.394,"body":"So we establish communications with them."},{"startTime":2407.432,"endTime":2411.162,"body":"We establish a system where basically they would call us at"},{"startTime":2411.176,"endTime":2415.038,"body":"a certain date and time if things were going well."},{"startTime":2415.184,"endTime":2416.874,"body":"And there were times we didn't hear from"},{"startTime":2416.912,"endTime":2420.414,"body":"them, and we were like, we're done. We didn't know."},{"startTime":2420.452,"endTime":2422.78,"body":"And then the phone would ring and we were back on."},{"startTime":2424.73,"endTime":2428.454,"body":"Most FBI undercover operations take place within"},{"startTime":2428.492,"endTime":2431.506,"body":"the continental United States, and there's regular"},{"startTime":2431.578,"endTime":2434.36,"body":"contact daily or weekly contact here."},{"startTime":2436.19,"endTime":2438.654,"body":"That's why you had to kind of hit a home run"},{"startTime":2438.692,"endTime":2441.8,"body":"each meeting in order to get them to come back."},{"startTime":2442.13,"endTime":2443.982,"body":"So how long does it take"},{"startTime":2444.056,"endTime":2446.67,"body":"before you hear anything from them?"},{"startTime":2446.84,"endTime":2451.554,"body":"Again, I may not remember the exact specifics, but we"},{"startTime":2451.592,"endTime":2453.93,"body":"knew within a brief period of time, I would say"},{"startTime":2454.04,"endTime":2459.834,"body":"weeks, that Manuel was impressed with us, that he told"},{"startTime":2459.872,"endTime":2463.578,"body":"them these guys are the real deal. And he did."},{"startTime":2463.604,"endTime":2465.054,"body":"We found out later that he told"},{"startTime":2465.092,"endTime":2467.578,"body":"them the boss was in his bathrobe."},{"startTime":2467.614,"endTime":2470.01,"body":"He didn't even get dressed up for this meeting."},{"startTime":2471.29,"endTime":2474.5,"body":"And everybody laughs about that, but"},{"startTime":2475.07,"endTime":2478.04,"body":"that's something I stress in training."},{"startTime":2479.27,"endTime":2481.138,"body":"You're hearing that from the horse's mouth."},{"startTime":2481.174,"endTime":2482.782,"body":"You got chopped gooseman."},{"startTime":2482.926,"endTime":2485.514,"body":"Being convinced that the FBI is really"},{"startTime":2485.552,"endTime":2492.946,"body":"a Sicilian crime organization, a big deal."},{"startTime":2493.128,"endTime":2495.718,"body":"And when we got word back that he was impressed with"},{"startTime":2495.744,"endTime":2499.006,"body":"us, we knew that we were going to move forward."},{"startTime":2499.128,"endTime":2502.126,"body":"We had to strategically plan"},{"startTime":2502.248,"endTime":2504.818,"body":"and prepare for each meeting."},{"startTime":2504.854,"endTime":2507.442,"body":"We couldn't waste any meetings. Right."},{"startTime":2507.576,"endTime":2509.782,"body":"So Manuel would come back, and then"},{"startTime":2509.796,"endTime":2512.04,"body":"he would slowly start bringing other people."},{"startTime":2513.63,"endTime":2515.842,"body":"At one point, they invited us."},{"startTime":2515.916,"endTime":2517.414,"body":"I think the next meeting was"},{"startTime":2517.452,"endTime":2520.27,"body":"in the Virgin Islands, correct? Yes."},{"startTime":2520.32,"endTime":2521.95,"body":"So there's like, three months"},{"startTime":2522.0,"endTime":2523.394,"body":"in between the physical meetings."},{"startTime":2523.442,"endTime":2526.14,"body":"Now we're talking to them cryptically on the phone,"},{"startTime":2527.25,"endTime":2530.894,"body":"but it's never dirty talk for being intercepted."},{"startTime":2530.942,"endTime":2533.326,"body":"So, you know, it's like a boxing match."},{"startTime":2533.388,"endTime":2535.8,"body":"They're filling us out, we're filling them out."},{"startTime":2536.73,"endTime":2541.378,"body":"We were prepared to continue on, and the"},{"startTime":2541.404,"endTime":2543.77,"body":"next meetings were the Virgin Island meetings."},{"startTime":2543.83,"endTime":2546.95,"body":"And again, we're trying to mirror their organization."},{"startTime":2547.07,"endTime":2549.782,"body":"So I'm taking my guys on vacation."},{"startTime":2549.866,"endTime":2551.162,"body":"Like, when they believe we're"},{"startTime":2551.186,"endTime":2553.75,"body":"in Europe, we're hustling."},{"startTime":2554.91,"endTime":2558.394,"body":"So when it's time to relax, we want to go away"},{"startTime":2558.432,"endTime":2562.186,"body":"from where the cops are and relax and enjoy the time."},{"startTime":2562.248,"endTime":2564.902,"body":"So we were happy to meet them in the Virgin Islands."},{"startTime":2564.926,"endTime":2567.994,"body":"And I believe they brought at least"},{"startTime":2568.032,"endTime":2569.58,"body":"one other, if not two guys."},{"startTime":2569.97,"endTime":2573.982,"body":"Yeah, his personal mendoza, I think it was."},{"startTime":2574.056,"endTime":2576.91,"body":"Yeah Mendoza, his personal representative. Yeah."},{"startTime":2576.96,"endTime":2578.662,"body":"So they come this time and again."},{"startTime":2578.796,"endTime":2581.554,"body":"Our job is to tell them that we are the real deal."},{"startTime":2581.652,"endTime":2582.95,"body":"And this is what I emphasize,"},{"startTime":2583.01,"endTime":2584.438,"body":"and I hope they're listening."},{"startTime":2584.594,"endTime":2587.222,"body":"The other three undercovers have to carry the ball."},{"startTime":2587.306,"endTime":2592.762,"body":"I just come in periodically as the boss, so they have to"},{"startTime":2592.776,"endTime":2594.614,"body":"go out to dinner, they have to go to the beach."},{"startTime":2594.662,"endTime":2596.94,"body":"They have to go out drinking with these guys."},{"startTime":2597.75,"endTime":2600.262,"body":"But again, with each meeting, if we"},{"startTime":2600.276,"endTime":2601.558,"body":"hear back from them and they want"},{"startTime":2601.584,"endTime":2605.28,"body":"to meet again, means we're making progress. Right."},{"startTime":2605.91,"endTime":2610.75,"body":"The business end of it is you're talking amounts of"},{"startTime":2610.8,"endTime":2616.694,"body":"cocaine and heroin that Chapo would import into Europe."},{"startTime":2616.742,"endTime":2617.494,"body":"Is that correct? Yes."},{"startTime":2617.532,"endTime":2623.002,"body":"Because we knew from anybody in law enforcement knows at"},{"startTime":2623.016,"endTime":2628.08,"body":"that time they had a stronghold on the United States."},{"startTime":2629.13,"endTime":2632.938,"body":"They flooded our country with all kinds of dope, but"},{"startTime":2632.964,"endTime":2637.898,"body":"they didn't have a presence, a strong presence in Europe."},{"startTime":2637.934,"endTime":2640.2,"body":"That's what we tried to take advantage of."},{"startTime":2640.53,"endTime":2643.63,"body":"And when we floated, we called it the pipeline."},{"startTime":2643.95,"endTime":2645.238,"body":"We wanted to establish a"},{"startTime":2645.264,"endTime":2647.71,"body":"pipeline between Mexico and Europe."},{"startTime":2648.45,"endTime":2651.814,"body":"It just melded into what their"},{"startTime":2651.852,"endTime":2653.7,"body":"business model was at the time."},{"startTime":2654.09,"endTime":2655.414,"body":"Right, so you were going to"},{"startTime":2655.452,"endTime":2658.44,"body":"basically be their distributor in Europe. Exactly."},{"startTime":2659.79,"endTime":2663.454,"body":"So, again, planning planning or preparation by having"},{"startTime":2663.492,"endTime":2666.418,"body":"that seem to come out of nowhere, it"},{"startTime":2666.444,"endTime":2669.658,"body":"took us six months to decide that. Right."},{"startTime":2669.684,"endTime":2671.05,"body":"And what kind of quantities"},{"startTime":2671.91,"endTime":2674.198,"body":"were they were crazy quantities."},{"startTime":2674.354,"endTime":2677.698,"body":"In that Miami February meeting, they opened up"},{"startTime":2677.724,"endTime":2679.57,"body":"what they could give us 20 tons."},{"startTime":2681.45,"endTime":2685.666,"body":"Now, to understand the scale of this request, 20"},{"startTime":2685.728,"endTime":2688.894,"body":"tons of cocaine laid out in kilo bricks would"},{"startTime":2688.932,"endTime":2691.918,"body":"almost cover a football field end zone to end"},{"startTime":2691.944,"endTime":2695.7,"body":"zone, and be worth over $1 billion."},{"startTime":2698.11,"endTime":2699.386,"body":"And if we had said yes,"},{"startTime":2699.448,"endTime":2701.55,"body":"they would have said, thanks, officer."},{"startTime":2701.73,"endTime":2703.826,"body":"I'll see you around. Yeah. Right."},{"startTime":2703.888,"endTime":2706.098,"body":"So this is that tap"},{"startTime":2706.134,"endTime":2708.28,"body":"dance, the psychological chess match."},{"startTime":2708.85,"endTime":2710.86,"body":"We looked at them like they were crazy."},{"startTime":2711.79,"endTime":2715.73,"body":"Nobody does 20 tons. Right off the bat."},{"startTime":2715.78,"endTime":2716.966,"body":"Right off the bat, yeah."},{"startTime":2717.028,"endTime":2723.086,"body":"So we had to negotiate, and we wanted only 10 00,"},{"startTime":2723.088,"endTime":2725.582,"body":"15 00 kilos, which is a hell of a lot of"},{"startTime":2725.596,"endTime":2730.19,"body":"dope, but it's a very small quantity in the big picture."},{"startTime":2730.57,"endTime":2735.302,"body":"But we have to act unlike cops. Right."},{"startTime":2735.436,"endTime":2738.758,"body":"So you have to act like a criminal organization. Right."},{"startTime":2738.844,"endTime":2742.6,"body":"Give us a smaller amount, and we'll test it."},{"startTime":2743.35,"endTime":2746.74,"body":"Let's see how each side handles it. Okay? Right."},{"startTime":2747.55,"endTime":2749.39,"body":"We bent over backwards."},{"startTime":2750.13,"endTime":2752.75,"body":"We were very respectful, but we weren't"},{"startTime":2753.73,"endTime":2756.926,"body":"overwhelmed that we were dealing with Chapel. All right."},{"startTime":2756.988,"endTime":2758.678,"body":"I even told Manuel at one point, your"},{"startTime":2758.704,"endTime":2760.586,"body":"guy stuck with a warrant over his head."},{"startTime":2760.708,"endTime":2762.11,"body":"I can move anywhere in the world."},{"startTime":2762.16,"endTime":2765.4,"body":"Your guy is stuck in the mountains. All right?"},{"startTime":2766.51,"endTime":2767.498,"body":"Which is true."},{"startTime":2767.584,"endTime":2768.998,"body":"He was limited in what he could"},{"startTime":2769.024,"endTime":2770.93,"body":"do because he couldn't leave Mexico."},{"startTime":2772.09,"endTime":2774.594,"body":"So that's why Manuel had to come to Europe"},{"startTime":2774.642,"endTime":2778.478,"body":"and the United States to meet with us."},{"startTime":2778.504,"endTime":2781.062,"body":"But Manuel was we ended"},{"startTime":2781.086,"endTime":2782.574,"body":"up calling Manuel the telephone."},{"startTime":2782.622,"endTime":2785.502,"body":"That's how the messages were exchanged."},{"startTime":2785.646,"endTime":2788.114,"body":"And during this time, you're also having"},{"startTime":2788.152,"endTime":2790.406,"body":"to deal with the FBI brass. Right."},{"startTime":2790.468,"endTime":2793.622,"body":"So what is their take?"},{"startTime":2793.696,"endTime":2795.678,"body":"Are they pleased with your progress?"},{"startTime":2795.774,"endTime":2798.41,"body":"Are they pushing you to move faster?"},{"startTime":2798.97,"endTime":2801.542,"body":"You have to understand, because the case was out of"},{"startTime":2801.556,"endTime":2806.954,"body":"Boston, which was unusual, we were supervised by people in"},{"startTime":2806.992,"endTime":2812.93,"body":"Boston, and all of whom were excellent bosses."},{"startTime":2813.73,"endTime":2817.794,"body":"Now, FBI headquarters in Washington obviously has overall"},{"startTime":2817.842,"endTime":2821.414,"body":"authority and overall oversight, but we used our"},{"startTime":2821.452,"endTime":2824.32,"body":"bosses in Boston to kind of keep them"},{"startTime":2824.71,"endTime":2827.318,"body":"off our backs so we could work. Right."},{"startTime":2827.464,"endTime":2832.458,"body":"And I'm not disparaging anybody, but when you're"},{"startTime":2832.494,"endTime":2834.422,"body":"doing something like this and you're involved in"},{"startTime":2834.436,"endTime":2839.258,"body":"the day to day planning, preparation meetings, you"},{"startTime":2839.284,"endTime":2841.814,"body":"can't spend your whole day on the phone"},{"startTime":2841.852,"endTime":2846.422,"body":"with Washington explaining yourself, having second guess."},{"startTime":2846.616,"endTime":2849.758,"body":"So because of who the targets were, because of our"},{"startTime":2849.784,"endTime":2853.982,"body":"initial successes, we were able to kind of move forward"},{"startTime":2854.056,"endTime":2858.35,"body":"without too much crap, for lack of a better term."},{"startTime":2859.09,"endTime":2861.51,"body":"Every FBI investigation is monitored."},{"startTime":2861.57,"endTime":2863.49,"body":"Everybody has to deal with Washington."},{"startTime":2863.55,"endTime":2865.18,"body":"It's just the way it is."},{"startTime":2865.51,"endTime":2869.318,"body":"But we had great bosses in Boston who"},{"startTime":2869.344,"endTime":2872.606,"body":"allowed us based and I remember distinctly my"},{"startTime":2872.668,"endTime":2876.258,"body":"direct boss saying, give me all the paperwork."},{"startTime":2876.354,"endTime":2877.178,"body":"I'll take care of that."},{"startTime":2877.204,"endTime":2879.254,"body":"You go do what you got to do. That's great."},{"startTime":2879.292,"endTime":2882.042,"body":"So we were protected, if that's"},{"startTime":2882.066,"endTime":2884.718,"body":"the right word, by our manager."},{"startTime":2884.754,"endTime":2886.6,"body":"We're running interference for you."},{"startTime":2888.07,"endTime":2891.054,"body":"Later in the case, headquarters"},{"startTime":2891.102,"endTime":2892.602,"body":"started to tighten the noose."},{"startTime":2892.746,"endTime":2896.15,"body":"But after these first initial meetings,"},{"startTime":2896.47,"endTime":2898.202,"body":"we were supported very well."},{"startTime":2898.336,"endTime":2902.63,"body":"So after the Virgin Islands meeting, they went back."},{"startTime":2902.68,"endTime":2905.006,"body":"We had to wait to see if we were still in the game."},{"startTime":2905.128,"endTime":2907.61,"body":"Whatever we did was impressive enough"},{"startTime":2907.66,"endTime":2909.158,"body":"that they came back to us."},{"startTime":2909.304,"endTime":2911.874,"body":"The next series of meetings took place in Florida"},{"startTime":2911.922,"endTime":2915.94,"body":"and they brought financial people and legal people."},{"startTime":2916.33,"endTime":2918.338,"body":"So we knew that we were dealing with"},{"startTime":2918.364,"endTime":2921.138,"body":"their I used to refer to their executive"},{"startTime":2921.174,"endTime":2924.362,"body":"level board or their management board."},{"startTime":2924.436,"endTime":2928.9,"body":"They brought legal people, serious financial people."},{"startTime":2929.41,"endTime":2932.762,"body":"Because think about it, if you take away the"},{"startTime":2932.956,"endTime":2937.658,"body":"illegal aspect of it, cocaine and heroin, if you"},{"startTime":2937.684,"endTime":2940.898,"body":"have two conglomerates trying to do a deal in"},{"startTime":2940.924,"endTime":2943.454,"body":"Europe and one's in Mexico, you're going to send"},{"startTime":2943.492,"endTime":2946.358,"body":"your top people to work a deal out."},{"startTime":2946.444,"endTime":2947.93,"body":"And these were very capable people,"},{"startTime":2947.98,"endTime":2950.234,"body":"very educated, very well spoken, very"},{"startTime":2950.272,"endTime":2953.918,"body":"well dressed, very impressive people."},{"startTime":2954.004,"endTime":2958.25,"body":"If they ever devoted the same level of interest"},{"startTime":2958.3,"endTime":2961.19,"body":"to legitimate work, they'd probably be very successful."},{"startTime":2961.81,"endTime":2964.538,"body":"They're not stupid people, believe me. Right."},{"startTime":2964.564,"endTime":2969.95,"body":"So we had these financial and it was mainly financial."},{"startTime":2970.63,"endTime":2972.374,"body":"And that's when, because I was running"},{"startTime":2972.412,"endTime":2975.638,"body":"that national team, I had access to"},{"startTime":2975.664,"endTime":2977.56,"body":"all the undercovers around the country."},{"startTime":2978.07,"endTime":2979.994,"body":"So I brought in guys who were"},{"startTime":2980.032,"endTime":2983.622,"body":"very skilled in financial and money laundering."},{"startTime":2983.766,"endTime":2985.958,"body":"So just as we were meeting new people, I"},{"startTime":2985.984,"endTime":2989.802,"body":"was introducing new people to them so they didn't"},{"startTime":2989.826,"endTime":2992.26,"body":"see the same four faces every time."},{"startTime":2992.71,"endTime":2996.074,"body":"And there were many meetings where they would see me"},{"startTime":2996.112,"endTime":2998.906,"body":"maybe through a window or sitting out in a car,"},{"startTime":2999.028,"endTime":3001.09,"body":"and I didn't even come into the meeting."},{"startTime":3001.83,"endTime":3003.502,"body":"That's what I have people working for"},{"startTime":3003.516,"endTime":3006.062,"body":"me to do just as chapo."},{"startTime":3006.206,"endTime":3009.466,"body":"I basically was chapo for us."},{"startTime":3009.528,"endTime":3013.066,"body":"So I would send my attorney, I would send my legal guy."},{"startTime":3013.248,"endTime":3016.958,"body":"And again, we had exceptional undercover"},{"startTime":3016.994,"endTime":3018.72,"body":"agents work in this case."},{"startTime":3020.61,"endTime":3026.158,"body":"There were no rookies or sloppy undercover working as"},{"startTime":3026.184,"endTime":3029.614,"body":"they were the best the FBI had to offer."},{"startTime":3029.772,"endTime":3032.638,"body":"So in that meeting in Florida in"},{"startTime":3032.664,"endTime":3036.67,"body":"August, the money laundering came up, right?"},{"startTime":3036.78,"endTime":3037.81,"body":"Do you remember? Yeah."},{"startTime":3037.92,"endTime":3040.86,"body":"We had a function, again, a social function."},{"startTime":3041.19,"endTime":3042.754,"body":"It's not always business, but"},{"startTime":3042.792,"endTime":3044.134,"body":"business inevitably comes up."},{"startTime":3044.172,"endTime":3050.042,"body":"And I believe that it was the attorney who approached."},{"startTime":3050.066,"endTime":3053.494,"body":"One of our guys, I believe was Patricio and"},{"startTime":3053.532,"endTime":3057.298,"body":"began to discuss money laundering, and he asked them"},{"startTime":3057.324,"endTime":3061.538,"body":"how much they were talking about, because money laundering"},{"startTime":3061.574,"endTime":3064.27,"body":"inevitably goes hand in hand with drug trafficking."},{"startTime":3064.95,"endTime":3065.902,"body":"I had done a lot of"},{"startTime":3065.916,"endTime":3067.97,"body":"money laundering cases in my career."},{"startTime":3068.03,"endTime":3071.47,"body":"I knew the right way to go about it."},{"startTime":3071.52,"endTime":3073.5,"body":"And we said to them, well, what do you think?"},{"startTime":3074.13,"endTime":3075.034,"body":"What do you have in mind?"},{"startTime":3075.072,"endTime":3076.27,"body":"He said, Just a little bit."},{"startTime":3076.32,"endTime":3080.46,"body":"And I believe his comment was 500 million to start."},{"startTime":3080.97,"endTime":3082.402,"body":"All right, just a little bit."},{"startTime":3082.476,"endTime":3084.214,"body":"And one of the problems with"},{"startTime":3084.252,"endTime":3087.802,"body":"the Mexican cartels is exactly that."},{"startTime":3087.876,"endTime":3089.94,"body":"They make so much cash money,"},{"startTime":3090.45,"endTime":3093.406,"body":"it's very difficult to clean up."},{"startTime":3093.468,"endTime":3096.178,"body":"I mean, they literally have we've seen them."},{"startTime":3096.204,"endTime":3098.662,"body":"They literally have underground tunnels that"},{"startTime":3098.676,"endTime":3099.826,"body":"is stuff full of US."},{"startTime":3099.888,"endTime":3102.022,"body":"Cash that they literally can't get rid of."},{"startTime":3102.036,"endTime":3103.358,"body":"They put them in wheelbarrows"},{"startTime":3103.394,"endTime":3106.03,"body":"or small trains to transport."},{"startTime":3106.59,"endTime":3111.12,"body":"There's just that much cash hanging around."},{"startTime":3111.57,"endTime":3114.118,"body":"So what that told me, when they"},{"startTime":3114.144,"endTime":3117.574,"body":"approached us about that, we eventually told"},{"startTime":3117.612,"endTime":3120.01,"body":"them, yes, we'll end your money later."},{"startTime":3120.06,"endTime":3121.75,"body":"We want to do the dope first."},{"startTime":3121.92,"endTime":3125.198,"body":"But what that told me was we were in solid."},{"startTime":3125.294,"endTime":3129.146,"body":"If they're asking us to launder their funds, they're"},{"startTime":3129.158,"endTime":3132.154,"body":"going to give you X amount of dollars and"},{"startTime":3132.192,"endTime":3134.458,"body":"trust you to return a percentage of that."},{"startTime":3134.544,"endTime":3137.134,"body":"You don't do that unless you're in tight. Right."},{"startTime":3137.172,"endTime":3139.87,"body":"So these are all positive signs."},{"startTime":3140.25,"endTime":3143.938,"body":"So your credibility with them was very high. Yes."},{"startTime":3143.964,"endTime":3145.56,"body":"And again, we told them no."},{"startTime":3146.37,"endTime":3148.798,"body":"What, cops are going to turn down laundering money."},{"startTime":3148.944,"endTime":3149.434,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3149.532,"endTime":3152.746,"body":"And I literally had to go to Washington and explain"},{"startTime":3152.928,"endTime":3155.074,"body":"our position where we didn't want to do it, because"},{"startTime":3155.112,"endTime":3158.29,"body":"if we started to go down the money laundering path,"},{"startTime":3159.27,"endTime":3162.758,"body":"we would have got away from the drug trafficking."},{"startTime":3162.794,"endTime":3164.194,"body":"If we were going to prosecute these"},{"startTime":3164.232,"endTime":3167.434,"body":"people on drug trafficking charges, we needed"},{"startTime":3167.472,"endTime":3170.266,"body":"to have actual drugs in our possession. Right."},{"startTime":3170.328,"endTime":3176.842,"body":"So the money was kind of exciting, and it didn't justify all"},{"startTime":3176.856,"endTime":3179.82,"body":"the time and energy we had set up to do the case."},{"startTime":3180.63,"endTime":3187.01,"body":"And then I think the next meeting was in Spain in 2011."},{"startTime":3187.19,"endTime":3187.81,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":3187.86,"endTime":3189.55,"body":"We went to Madrid."},{"startTime":3189.93,"endTime":3192.478,"body":"I think that's the point where you"},{"startTime":3192.624,"endTime":3195.982,"body":"had contact with Chapo, is that correct?"},{"startTime":3196.116,"endTime":3198.862,"body":"We were trying to arrange earlier when we were in"},{"startTime":3198.876,"endTime":3204.262,"body":"the Virgin Islands, mendoza called Chapo, and Chapo was on"},{"startTime":3204.276,"endTime":3207.314,"body":"the phone with us in the Virgin Islands."},{"startTime":3207.422,"endTime":3210.442,"body":"And Patricio and Antonio, two of"},{"startTime":3210.456,"endTime":3213.734,"body":"our undercovers, obviously were Spanish speakers."},{"startTime":3213.902,"endTime":3215.062,"body":"I wasn't going to get on the"},{"startTime":3215.076,"endTime":3216.85,"body":"phone because I don't speak Spanish."},{"startTime":3217.41,"endTime":3219.394,"body":"And they got on the phone with him"},{"startTime":3219.432,"endTime":3223.45,"body":"and had a conversation, and he basically said,"},{"startTime":3223.5,"endTime":3227.098,"body":"hey, tell Vajo I'm looking forward to this."},{"startTime":3227.244,"endTime":3228.178,"body":"He had bought it."},{"startTime":3228.204,"endTime":3231.118,"body":"He just tells us, Hope things are going to work out."},{"startTime":3231.144,"endTime":3232.378,"body":"Hope we have a long relationship."},{"startTime":3232.524,"endTime":3236.702,"body":"So they talked to him in the Virgin Islands."},{"startTime":3236.726,"endTime":3238.69,"body":"When we went to Spain, I was supposed to speak"},{"startTime":3238.74,"endTime":3241.87,"body":"directly to him because he was now introducing us to"},{"startTime":3241.92,"endTime":3245.35,"body":"his people, his traffickers, who were in Europe."},{"startTime":3245.85,"endTime":3248.842,"body":"Okay, so all of this is leading to, we're going to"},{"startTime":3248.856,"endTime":3252.97,"body":"do this exchange, but you need to meet our people."},{"startTime":3253.02,"endTime":3253.678,"body":"They need to meet."},{"startTime":3253.704,"endTime":3255.586,"body":"And we were being vetted every time"},{"startTime":3255.648,"endTime":3258.24,"body":"we knew that they were watching us. Right."},{"startTime":3259.41,"endTime":3262.02,"body":"It was a cat and mouse game. Yeah."},{"startTime":3262.35,"endTime":3264.842,"body":"So you go to Spain, and I think that's"},{"startTime":3264.866,"endTime":3268.91,"body":"where you started to discuss drugs and test loads."},{"startTime":3268.97,"endTime":3270.24,"body":"Correct? Right."},{"startTime":3270.57,"endTime":3273.178,"body":"At that point, we had now spent more"},{"startTime":3273.204,"endTime":3275.58,"body":"than a year, I believe, pushing this."},{"startTime":3276.09,"endTime":3278.638,"body":"And again, because you got to understand it"},{"startTime":3278.664,"endTime":3281.858,"body":"if you're talking about a large quantity transaction,"},{"startTime":3282.014,"endTime":3285.278,"body":"either by vessel or by air, the details"},{"startTime":3285.314,"endTime":3286.754,"body":"involved in that are incredible."},{"startTime":3286.862,"endTime":3289.75,"body":"This isn't something you can work out in an hour."},{"startTime":3289.92,"endTime":3292.606,"body":"And especially given the back and forth, they had"},{"startTime":3292.608,"endTime":3294.478,"body":"to go into the mountains, come back to us."},{"startTime":3294.564,"endTime":3296.77,"body":"It took a long time, but we were patient."},{"startTime":3297.57,"endTime":3301.27,"body":"And at this point, we now started to talk specifics."},{"startTime":3301.83,"endTime":3303.974,"body":"We were going to get X amount of dope."},{"startTime":3304.082,"endTime":3309.31,"body":"We talked about using cargo planes, vessels, et cetera."},{"startTime":3310.11,"endTime":3312.118,"body":"How much, we had to know."},{"startTime":3312.144,"endTime":3315.322,"body":"You got to remember, if we get 1000"},{"startTime":3315.396,"endTime":3318.418,"body":"kilos of cocaine, we can't pay for it."},{"startTime":3318.444,"endTime":3320.278,"body":"The US taxpayer is not going to give"},{"startTime":3320.304,"endTime":3323.806,"body":"the FBI millions and millions of dollars."},{"startTime":3323.988,"endTime":3325.87,"body":"So we had to be creative."},{"startTime":3326.37,"endTime":3329.434,"body":"And we told them, hey, rather than paying you for it,"},{"startTime":3329.472,"endTime":3332.914,"body":"we'll offload it for you, we'll get rid of it for"},{"startTime":3332.952,"endTime":3337.14,"body":"you, and we'll take 20% of the load as our payment."},{"startTime":3337.77,"endTime":3340.02,"body":"That way we don't have to give them any cash"},{"startTime":3340.83,"endTime":3343.342,"body":"and we find out where all the adopt is going."},{"startTime":3343.476,"endTime":3346.678,"body":"So these are the negotiations that"},{"startTime":3346.704,"endTime":3350.098,"body":"go on for weeks, months."},{"startTime":3350.244,"endTime":3351.214,"body":"Now we're in two years."},{"startTime":3351.252,"endTime":3352.934,"body":"You're negotiating percentages,"},{"startTime":3353.042,"endTime":3354.778,"body":"you're negotiating terms."},{"startTime":3354.924,"endTime":3356.614,"body":"And when I say we are, this"},{"startTime":3356.652,"endTime":3358.838,"body":"is getting back to the three undercovers."},{"startTime":3358.994,"endTime":3362.818,"body":"That was their primary job, and I would"},{"startTime":3362.844,"endTime":3364.066,"body":"just come in and clean it up."},{"startTime":3364.128,"endTime":3367.858,"body":"An interesting thing I remember about Spain was when"},{"startTime":3367.884,"endTime":3370.906,"body":"I went into the meetings, the other undercover in"},{"startTime":3370.908,"endTime":3373.74,"body":"the informant had prepared these guys so well."},{"startTime":3374.31,"endTime":3376.198,"body":"They stood up when I walked in like"},{"startTime":3376.224,"endTime":3379.15,"body":"I was the President of the United States. Okay?"},{"startTime":3379.26,"endTime":3382.02,"body":"But again, this is what I teach in training."},{"startTime":3382.71,"endTime":3385.582,"body":"They were pavlov's dogs because of the"},{"startTime":3385.596,"endTime":3388.138,"body":"way the scenario had been set up."},{"startTime":3388.284,"endTime":3391.958,"body":"So they knew that when I walked into room businesses."},{"startTime":3392.054,"endTime":3394.62,"body":"Yeah, exactly."},{"startTime":3395.73,"endTime":3397.922,"body":"There's a video from Spain that we played"},{"startTime":3397.946,"endTime":3399.502,"body":"at trial where they all jump up."},{"startTime":3399.516,"endTime":3401.666,"body":"It looked like the United Nations"},{"startTime":3401.738,"endTime":3403.38,"body":"when I walked into a room."},{"startTime":3404.67,"endTime":3407.59,"body":"But that's just the way they had been prepared."},{"startTime":3407.91,"endTime":3410.17,"body":"And Spain was successful."},{"startTime":3410.55,"endTime":3412.618,"body":"The Spanish National Police were great."},{"startTime":3412.704,"endTime":3415.45,"body":"They allowed us access to a private airstrip."},{"startTime":3415.89,"endTime":3418.99,"body":"We were trying to lure Chapel out of Mexico."},{"startTime":3419.31,"endTime":3421.978,"body":"And we did a scenario where I"},{"startTime":3422.004,"endTime":3424.37,"body":"took Manuel to this private airfield."},{"startTime":3424.43,"endTime":3426.13,"body":"I met with all the generals"},{"startTime":3426.69,"endTime":3429.17,"body":"as if I controlled the airport."},{"startTime":3429.23,"endTime":3430.858,"body":"And we offered the opportunity for"},{"startTime":3430.884,"endTime":3432.55,"body":"Chapter to flee to Europe."},{"startTime":3433.05,"endTime":3435.478,"body":"And again, we find out a lot of things. You find out."},{"startTime":3435.504,"endTime":3438.31,"body":"After the investigation, we found out that he was"},{"startTime":3438.48,"endTime":3440.942,"body":"seriously considering that we had hoped that he jumped"},{"startTime":3440.966,"endTime":3443.218,"body":"on a plane, but that was the type of"},{"startTime":3443.244,"endTime":3446.41,"body":"cooperation we got from the foreign law enforcement."},{"startTime":3446.73,"endTime":3448.718,"body":"So this was a worldwide effort."},{"startTime":3448.754,"endTime":3452.734,"body":"The FBI was leading the show, but we got"},{"startTime":3452.772,"endTime":3457.826,"body":"great help from Italy, from Spain, from England."},{"startTime":3457.898,"endTime":3459.31,"body":"We got help from everywhere."},{"startTime":3459.63,"endTime":3463.298,"body":"So you decide to not use the airstrip."},{"startTime":3463.394,"endTime":3466.234,"body":"That was a decision that they made. That they made."},{"startTime":3466.332,"endTime":3467.494,"body":"And what did they come back"},{"startTime":3467.532,"endTime":3469.454,"body":"with in terms of an alternative?"},{"startTime":3469.562,"endTime":3472.858,"body":"Well, no, kind of a secondary goal was"},{"startTime":3472.884,"endTime":3474.818,"body":"to try to get him out of Mexico."},{"startTime":3474.914,"endTime":3478.03,"body":"So that's what the airfield was about, the dope deal."},{"startTime":3478.08,"endTime":3479.578,"body":"So you can arrest them? Yeah."},{"startTime":3479.724,"endTime":3483.41,"body":"If he felt so much pressure in Mexico, he had to flee."},{"startTime":3483.47,"endTime":3485.714,"body":"Well, he had to go somewhere."},{"startTime":3485.882,"endTime":3488.098,"body":"So we just gave them the opportunity to"},{"startTime":3488.124,"endTime":3490.2,"body":"come to Europe if he ever chose to."},{"startTime":3491.07,"endTime":3492.874,"body":"He eventually did not, but"},{"startTime":3492.972,"endTime":3494.426,"body":"it was a serious consideration."},{"startTime":3494.498,"endTime":3500.102,"body":"We found out later we're still focused on our drug"},{"startTime":3500.246,"endTime":3507.274,"body":"exchange, and it's during those meetings in Madrid that they"},{"startTime":3507.312,"endTime":3511.994,"body":"commit to start sending us drugs that summer."},{"startTime":3512.162,"endTime":3514.2,"body":"And that would lead to to the"},{"startTime":3514.59,"endTime":3517.21,"body":"test loads that you're familiar with."},{"startTime":3517.38,"endTime":3520.57,"body":"For people who aren't educated in drug trafficking,"},{"startTime":3521.01,"endTime":3525.298,"body":"you can't send a container from point A"},{"startTime":3525.324,"endTime":3529.498,"body":"to point B with no previous relationship, without"},{"startTime":3529.584,"endTime":3534.034,"body":"customs, whatever country it is, the customs people"},{"startTime":3534.072,"endTime":3535.658,"body":"are going to search that vessel."},{"startTime":3535.694,"endTime":3539.258,"body":"So we had to do some test loads."},{"startTime":3539.294,"endTime":3541.922,"body":"We only wanted it to be one or two test loads."},{"startTime":3542.066,"endTime":3544.738,"body":"They ended up over that summer, they ended up"},{"startTime":3544.764,"endTime":3546.73,"body":"doing, I think it was four or five."},{"startTime":3546.9,"endTime":3548.666,"body":"And we were getting a little bit aggravated"},{"startTime":3548.738,"endTime":3551.422,"body":"because it takes time, money, etc, etc."},{"startTime":3551.496,"endTime":3554.122,"body":"They were being careful, we understood that."},{"startTime":3554.256,"endTime":3557.04,"body":"But at the same this is really when"},{"startTime":3558.15,"endTime":3561.49,"body":"Washington started to get a little bit antsy."},{"startTime":3562.65,"endTime":3564.526,"body":"We had now been working these guys for a"},{"startTime":3564.528,"endTime":3567.578,"body":"couple of years and we had great conversations."},{"startTime":3567.674,"endTime":3569.242,"body":"We had a great conspiracy, but we"},{"startTime":3569.256,"endTime":3571.426,"body":"didn't have any actual drugs, right?"},{"startTime":3571.488,"endTime":3574.238,"body":"And without drugs, you don't have any real evidence."},{"startTime":3574.334,"endTime":3579.25,"body":"You can charge people with drug trafficking charges without"},{"startTime":3579.36,"endTime":3582.36,"body":"drugs, but you really don't want to do that."},{"startTime":3583.11,"endTime":3584.326,"body":"And especially you don't want to"},{"startTime":3584.328,"endTime":3585.722,"body":"do that with the sinner cocktail."},{"startTime":3585.746,"endTime":3587.53,"body":"It's called a dry conspiracy."},{"startTime":3589.17,"endTime":3591.926,"body":"But we were adamant that we had to seize"},{"startTime":3591.998,"endTime":3595.97,"body":"drugs in order to move forward with the prosecution."},{"startTime":3596.09,"endTime":3598.358,"body":"So when you talk about test loads, you're"},{"startTime":3598.394,"endTime":3601.93,"body":"talking about just seeing if you can get"},{"startTime":3601.98,"endTime":3604.906,"body":"things through certain ports and through certain customers."},{"startTime":3604.968,"endTime":3606.898,"body":"You have to have Company A, have"},{"startTime":3606.924,"endTime":3609.91,"body":"a history with Company B, right?"},{"startTime":3610.02,"endTime":3612.782,"body":"And every month they get a load of pineapples,"},{"startTime":3612.806,"endTime":3615.838,"body":"they get a load of fruit, whatever it is."},{"startTime":3615.984,"endTime":3618.42,"body":"That's what they were establishing with us."},{"startTime":3618.87,"endTime":3621.586,"body":"But again, we never lose sight of"},{"startTime":3621.588,"endTime":3623.47,"body":"the fact that we're law enforcement."},{"startTime":3623.79,"endTime":3627.19,"body":"We're telling them, hey, one or two is plenty."},{"startTime":3628.17,"endTime":3629.654,"body":"You're sending it to Spain?"},{"startTime":3629.762,"endTime":3633.298,"body":"It's our responsibility to get it any risk is on"},{"startTime":3633.324,"endTime":3637.2,"body":"our end, not yours, even though they'd lose the product."},{"startTime":3638.31,"endTime":3640.21,"body":"But they were very disciplined, and"},{"startTime":3640.32,"endTime":3642.48,"body":"that's why they're the top."},{"startTime":3643.29,"endTime":3647.34,"body":"And they were sending actual fruit. Correct? Yeah."},{"startTime":3647.79,"endTime":3652.178,"body":"We fed half the country of Spain with pineapples"},{"startTime":3652.214,"endTime":3655.682,"body":"and plantains and everything, but it was frustrating."},{"startTime":3655.766,"endTime":3658.186,"body":"And you got to remember, the case agent"},{"startTime":3658.308,"endTime":3661.51,"body":"who started this whole case is very inexperienced."},{"startTime":3661.95,"endTime":3665.242,"body":"He thinks they're going to drop him out of"},{"startTime":3665.256,"endTime":3668.41,"body":"planes, they're going to drop kilos out of parachutes."},{"startTime":3669.27,"endTime":3672.838,"body":"A very sophisticated process."},{"startTime":3672.984,"endTime":3677.218,"body":"So you're getting shipments of pineapples and bananas or"},{"startTime":3677.244,"endTime":3680.098,"body":"whatever it is, and it's your job to get"},{"startTime":3680.124,"endTime":3683.534,"body":"it into the ports past the Customs initials."},{"startTime":3683.582,"endTime":3686.654,"body":"We had to show that we also had to the Cinelia cartel."},{"startTime":3686.702,"endTime":3687.058,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":3687.144,"endTime":3689.758,"body":"We had to show the cartel that we could get it"},{"startTime":3689.904,"endTime":3694.02,"body":"off the ship through Customs and into Europe, which we did."},{"startTime":3694.95,"endTime":3700.08,"body":"We literally had to drive this junk out of the port."},{"startTime":3700.89,"endTime":3704.338,"body":"We didn't know if we were being watched. Right."},{"startTime":3704.484,"endTime":3704.95,"body":"Of course."},{"startTime":3705.0,"endTime":3706.102,"body":"You probably were."},{"startTime":3706.296,"endTime":3707.846,"body":"We have to go through the motions."},{"startTime":3707.918,"endTime":3708.998,"body":"People get frustrated."},{"startTime":3709.034,"endTime":3713.002,"body":"But I knew going into this that if we were going to"},{"startTime":3713.016,"endTime":3715.61,"body":"do it right, we had to do all of these steps."},{"startTime":3715.67,"endTime":3717.202,"body":"And it was going to be frustrating and"},{"startTime":3717.216,"endTime":3719.618,"body":"it was going to be long term."},{"startTime":3719.774,"endTime":3722.76,"body":"But one mistake this is what people don't get."},{"startTime":3723.15,"endTime":3726.394,"body":"You make one mistake and three years"},{"startTime":3726.432,"endTime":3728.234,"body":"of investigation are out the window."},{"startTime":3728.342,"endTime":3730.366,"body":"Okay, so you do two or three."},{"startTime":3730.428,"endTime":3733.44,"body":"I think it was I think it was either four or five. Yeah."},{"startTime":3734.43,"endTime":3737.386,"body":"And that goes well. No glitch. No."},{"startTime":3737.448,"endTime":3740.942,"body":"We're establishing the relationship, but as lhey"},{"startTime":3741.026,"endTime":3744.094,"body":"in Europe, I'm now bitching to my"},{"startTime":3744.132,"endTime":3747.742,"body":"people, hey, let's get going."},{"startTime":3747.876,"endTime":3751.03,"body":"So we're now applying soft pressure to them."},{"startTime":3751.2,"endTime":3752.82,"body":"Hey, make this happen."},{"startTime":3753.51,"endTime":3755.362,"body":"There's a big difference between one and"},{"startTime":3755.376,"endTime":3758.546,"body":"two test loads and four you're wasting"},{"startTime":3758.618,"endTime":3760.702,"body":"basically another six to twelve months."},{"startTime":3760.836,"endTime":3762.034,"body":"And you're doing all this"},{"startTime":3762.072,"endTime":3763.994,"body":"arranging, and it's complicated."},{"startTime":3764.042,"endTime":3765.622,"body":"I don't know if you've ever tried to do it."},{"startTime":3765.696,"endTime":3769.02,"body":"I learned a lot, I can tell you that. Right."},{"startTime":3772.65,"endTime":3778.318,"body":"So now we're early 2012, and I think everybody"},{"startTime":3778.404,"endTime":3784.594,"body":"at this point is getting ready, expecting the first"},{"startTime":3784.692,"endTime":3788.306,"body":"load of drugs, and everybody's getting a little antsy."},{"startTime":3788.438,"endTime":3789.49,"body":"Right? Everybody."},{"startTime":3789.6,"endTime":3792.77,"body":"From the Cinema Cartel to the Sicilians"},{"startTime":3792.83,"endTime":3797.038,"body":"to FBI headquarters to Boston, there was"},{"startTime":3797.064,"endTime":3798.806,"body":"a tremendous amount of pressure."},{"startTime":3798.938,"endTime":3802.21,"body":"I felt comfortable that we were going to succeed."},{"startTime":3802.83,"endTime":3806.134,"body":"But you got to understand, at that point, I probably had,"},{"startTime":3806.232,"endTime":3809.138,"body":"in the chain of command, I probably had 20 bosses above"},{"startTime":3809.174,"endTime":3812.126,"body":"me, and each one of them needs an explanation."},{"startTime":3812.198,"endTime":3814.21,"body":"Each one of them has to be convinced."},{"startTime":3814.65,"endTime":3817.15,"body":"So we had to make a critical decision at that"},{"startTime":3817.2,"endTime":3825.338,"body":"point in that's late 2011, early 2012, I believe it"},{"startTime":3825.364,"endTime":3831.002,"body":"took me about three months, four months that I finally"},{"startTime":3831.076,"endTime":3834.482,"body":"went to the case agents and said, listen, you're not"},{"startTime":3834.496,"endTime":3837.158,"body":"going to like this, but we have to tell the"},{"startTime":3837.184,"endTime":3839.56,"body":"Silo that the Italians are walking away."},{"startTime":3839.95,"endTime":3843.21,"body":"We needed to now turn up the pressure"},{"startTime":3843.39,"endTime":3845.5,"body":"to the point that they either had to"},{"startTime":3845.95,"endTime":3851.57,"body":"provide something or walk away, because very simply,"},{"startTime":3852.31,"endTime":3855.16,"body":"no bad guys would stick around that long."},{"startTime":3855.91,"endTime":3859.002,"body":"So if we continue to just wait, they're"},{"startTime":3859.026,"endTime":3861.794,"body":"going to say, Wait a minute, these guys,"},{"startTime":3861.892,"endTime":3863.69,"body":"maybe these guys are really cops."},{"startTime":3864.61,"endTime":3867.138,"body":"So that was something that I decided."},{"startTime":3867.294,"endTime":3874.382,"body":"The case agent was very disappointed, but it"},{"startTime":3874.396,"endTime":3876.53,"body":"was the right move, hopefully, at the time."},{"startTime":3876.58,"endTime":3879.87,"body":"So basically, we're going to communicate"},{"startTime":3880.05,"endTime":3884.56,"body":"through our channels that Elviejo is."},{"startTime":3884.89,"endTime":3886.242,"body":"We told them straight out, they're"},{"startTime":3886.266,"endTime":3887.98,"body":"gone, and we walked away."},{"startTime":3888.43,"endTime":3891.438,"body":"They tried to reach us and we stopped communicating."},{"startTime":3891.474,"endTime":3892.72,"body":"We didn't pick up the phone."},{"startTime":3894.07,"endTime":3898.9,"body":"I think we did that in February, March 12."},{"startTime":3901.69,"endTime":3902.822,"body":"And believe me, there was a lot"},{"startTime":3902.836,"endTime":3904.578,"body":"of sleepless nights about that decision."},{"startTime":3904.674,"endTime":3908.13,"body":"And again, I bark about the FBI"},{"startTime":3908.19,"endTime":3910.25,"body":"when I don't think we're being supported."},{"startTime":3910.81,"endTime":3912.246,"body":"They supported that decision."},{"startTime":3912.318,"endTime":3914.054,"body":"They didn't like it, but they"},{"startTime":3914.092,"endTime":3916.07,"body":"left that up to the investigators."},{"startTime":3916.63,"endTime":3917.99,"body":"I thought it was the right move."},{"startTime":3918.04,"endTime":3919.37,"body":"I knew it was a gamble."},{"startTime":3921.25,"endTime":3924.854,"body":"I told him I thought it had an 80% chance of working."},{"startTime":3924.952,"endTime":3926.906,"body":"In reality, I thought it had about a 20%"},{"startTime":3926.968,"endTime":3929.02,"body":"chance of working, but I didn't tell them that."},{"startTime":3931.03,"endTime":3932.906,"body":"But there comes a point in a case,"},{"startTime":3932.968,"endTime":3936.47,"body":"every case, where you got to make something"},{"startTime":3936.52,"endTime":3938.56,"body":"happen, and we have reached that point."},{"startTime":3939.25,"endTime":3940.214,"body":"So we did that."},{"startTime":3940.252,"endTime":3945.098,"body":"I believe it was March, and thankfully and"},{"startTime":3945.124,"endTime":3948.818,"body":"luckily and hopefully, that kind of lit a"},{"startTime":3948.844,"endTime":3952.91,"body":"fire under there in their jungle."},{"startTime":3953.59,"endTime":3956.74,"body":"And that leads up to July of 2012."},{"startTime":3959.15,"endTime":3962.682,"body":"We get a call out of the blue, go to"},{"startTime":3962.696,"endTime":3967.16,"body":"Detroit in 24 hours, there's something there for you."},{"startTime":3967.97,"endTime":3973.262,"body":"We send a team to Detroit overnight."},{"startTime":3973.346,"endTime":3978.266,"body":"The next day, we go to a Mexican restaurant."},{"startTime":3978.338,"endTime":3982.45,"body":"We meet with the Mexican employees."},{"startTime":3983.79,"endTime":3987.118,"body":"They take us to a back alley point to a car."},{"startTime":3987.204,"endTime":3990.554,"body":"We reach in the car, there's a takeout bag,"},{"startTime":3990.662,"endTime":3993.01,"body":"and when we get back to the hotel, there's"},{"startTime":3993.51,"endTime":3998.486,"body":"a huge amount of heroin and methamphetamine."},{"startTime":3998.618,"endTime":4000.37,"body":"And this was totally unexpected."},{"startTime":4000.43,"endTime":4003.426,"body":"It wasn't unexpected in the sense that they have to do."},{"startTime":4003.548,"endTime":4005.43,"body":"We had kind of called their bluff."},{"startTime":4006.17,"endTime":4007.734,"body":"All right, right, you guys are supposed"},{"startTime":4007.772,"endTime":4009.334,"body":"to be the cynical or cartel."},{"startTime":4009.382,"endTime":4010.614,"body":"You're supposed to be this and that."},{"startTime":4010.652,"endTime":4013.77,"body":"You can't even give us a bag of dirt."},{"startTime":4015.23,"endTime":4018.258,"body":"So again, what cop is going to say to them?"},{"startTime":4018.344,"endTime":4020.922,"body":"We're walking away. All right."},{"startTime":4020.996,"endTime":4025.282,"body":"So we set that up, and once we got the heroin"},{"startTime":4025.306,"endTime":4030.342,"body":"and the methamphetamine, I knew literally that moment that we were"},{"startTime":4030.356,"endTime":4033.44,"body":"going to get the load that we had hoped for."},{"startTime":4034.61,"endTime":4036.798,"body":"And literally within I think it was only two or"},{"startTime":4036.824,"endTime":4044.058,"body":"three weeks later at the end of July, finally, a"},{"startTime":4044.084,"endTime":4050.674,"body":"ship arrives in Spain, and there's 346 kilos of cocaine."},{"startTime":4050.722,"endTime":4053.9,"body":"So the mother load finally came in."},{"startTime":4055.55,"endTime":4056.96,"body":"It took three years."},{"startTime":4057.65,"endTime":4060.37,"body":"Yeah, without fronting a dime."},{"startTime":4060.49,"endTime":4062.06,"body":"Didn't pay a penny for it."},{"startTime":4063.65,"endTime":4065.434,"body":"This was the moment of victory."},{"startTime":4065.602,"endTime":4068.218,"body":"The FBI had helped facilitate the largest"},{"startTime":4068.254,"endTime":4071.358,"body":"seizure of methamphetamine and heroin in Detroit. Law."},{"startTime":4071.384,"endTime":4074.658,"body":"Enforcement history, which was stuffed in takeout bags and"},{"startTime":4074.684,"endTime":4076.518,"body":"dropped on the front seat of a car."},{"startTime":4076.664,"endTime":4080.962,"body":"They had also seized 346 kilos of cocaine in Spain."},{"startTime":4081.106,"endTime":4084.13,"body":"So after three years of investigation, the FBI"},{"startTime":4084.19,"endTime":4087.238,"body":"now had illegal drugs supplied by the Sinhala"},{"startTime":4087.274,"endTime":4090.474,"body":"cartel in their possession, which, after decades of"},{"startTime":4090.512,"endTime":4094.04,"body":"trying, finally solidified the legal case against them."},{"startTime":4094.91,"endTime":4097.738,"body":"So now you've got the drugs, you're"},{"startTime":4097.774,"endTime":4101.805,"body":"talking to Chapo, you've established direct communications"},{"startTime":4101.877,"endTime":4105.68,"body":"with him, and then what happens?"},{"startTime":4107.029,"endTime":4109.482,"body":"You get the dope, you get the product, but the"},{"startTime":4109.496,"endTime":4111.75,"body":"case has been finished until you get the bodies."},{"startTime":4112.069,"endTime":4114.63,"body":"So now we have to arrest. All right?"},{"startTime":4114.68,"endTime":4116.421,"body":"So we know we're not going to we can't"},{"startTime":4116.446,"endTime":4118.819,"body":"go into the mountains of Mexico and grab him,"},{"startTime":4119.87,"endTime":4122.359,"body":"but we can grab all of his people."},{"startTime":4122.689,"endTime":4126.874,"body":"So we arrange for them to come to Spain"},{"startTime":4126.921,"endTime":4132.142,"body":"again, and we want to have a celebratory party."},{"startTime":4132.225,"endTime":4134.06,"body":"We finally made our first deal."},{"startTime":4134.87,"endTime":4137.79,"body":"Drugs are flowing freely through Europe."},{"startTime":4138.59,"endTime":4140.394,"body":"They're expecting to get paid."},{"startTime":4140.432,"endTime":4141.702,"body":"I believe they thought we were going to give"},{"startTime":4141.716,"endTime":4145.462,"body":"them $13 million, so it's setting up the arrest."},{"startTime":4145.486,"endTime":4148.066,"body":"So we work with the Spanish national police,"},{"startTime":4148.258,"endTime":4150.38,"body":"and we set up the final day."},{"startTime":4151.31,"endTime":4154.638,"body":"But again, from experience and from what older agents had"},{"startTime":4154.663,"endTime":4158.25,"body":"taught me, we wanted to bleed them dry the last"},{"startTime":4158.3,"endTime":4160.58,"body":"day because we're never going to see these guys again."},{"startTime":4161.149,"endTime":4163.734,"body":"So rather than just arrest them, we invite them."},{"startTime":4163.772,"endTime":4165.81,"body":"They think they're going to a huge party."},{"startTime":4166.37,"endTime":4168.738,"body":"We bring them to the hotel, and then I sit with"},{"startTime":4168.764,"endTime":4174.234,"body":"Manuel, one of the undercovers, and myself sat with man."},{"startTime":4174.272,"endTime":4177.894,"body":"Well, for I believe it was 4 hours, and we"},{"startTime":4177.932,"endTime":4180.63,"body":"literally went through step by step of what had happened"},{"startTime":4180.68,"endTime":4185.238,"body":"in the case that Chapo made every decision in the"},{"startTime":4185.264,"endTime":4189.45,"body":"federal system, you have what's called co conspirator statements."},{"startTime":4189.95,"endTime":4196.602,"body":"So if Manuel says that Chapo approved all"},{"startTime":4196.616,"endTime":4198.92,"body":"of these, that's evidence that you can use."},{"startTime":4199.37,"endTime":4201.762,"body":"So it's almost the same as the"},{"startTime":4201.776,"endTime":4203.79,"body":"words coming out of Chapo's mouth."},{"startTime":4204.17,"endTime":4207.366,"body":"And we had all other kinds of evidence, obviously, but"},{"startTime":4207.488,"endTime":4211.23,"body":"we spent that last day I believe that was August."},{"startTime":4213.93,"endTime":4215.998,"body":"Yeah, we spent that last day"},{"startTime":4216.084,"endTime":4219.946,"body":"milking him dry of every detail."},{"startTime":4220.008,"endTime":4223.702,"body":"This is all on video, audio, audio tape, to"},{"startTime":4223.716,"endTime":4226.474,"body":"the point that I finally got a message from"},{"startTime":4226.512,"endTime":4229.44,"body":"our team saying, no Moss, no more."},{"startTime":4230.25,"endTime":4231.42,"body":"You got it."},{"startTime":4232.41,"endTime":4235.43,"body":"I then brought up the other European"},{"startTime":4235.49,"endTime":4239.52,"body":"guys, the telephone, the attorney, everybody else."},{"startTime":4240.33,"endTime":4242.758,"body":"That was one other thing I should point out."},{"startTime":4242.904,"endTime":4246.55,"body":"I would never talk dirty to anybody other than Manuel."},{"startTime":4247.59,"endTime":4249.442,"body":"So when I would meet with the lawyer, I would"},{"startTime":4249.456,"endTime":4251.398,"body":"meet with the financial guy, I would meet with the"},{"startTime":4251.424,"endTime":4257.89,"body":"distributor, and that's the way chopper would operate."},{"startTime":4258.21,"endTime":4261.06,"body":"I would only talk to the most trusted person."},{"startTime":4262.71,"endTime":4264.686,"body":"That last day, I'm sure they were surprised,"},{"startTime":4264.758,"endTime":4267.622,"body":"because here I am telling the whole story."},{"startTime":4267.756,"endTime":4269.818,"body":"Well, there's a reason, because the"},{"startTime":4269.844,"endTime":4271.87,"body":"Spanish cops are waiting downstairs."},{"startTime":4272.19,"endTime":4273.802,"body":"All right, so we go through this."},{"startTime":4273.876,"endTime":4276.6,"body":"It was a long day, but a very productive day."},{"startTime":4276.99,"endTime":4278.602,"body":"And then at the end of the"},{"startTime":4278.616,"endTime":4281.702,"body":"day, they were all arrested in Madrid."},{"startTime":4281.846,"endTime":4284.098,"body":"And then there's another step to this process"},{"startTime":4284.184,"endTime":4287.21,"body":"in terms of as soon as they're arrested,"},{"startTime":4287.27,"endTime":4290.002,"body":"you want to talk to them. Right."},{"startTime":4290.136,"endTime":4293.41,"body":"So what happens is they're arrested, and we"},{"startTime":4293.52,"endTime":4297.794,"body":"obviously arrested them in Europe so that Mexico"},{"startTime":4297.842,"endTime":4299.542,"body":"wouldn't know about it right away."},{"startTime":4299.736,"endTime":4301.862,"body":"But we also know that if they didn't"},{"startTime":4301.886,"endTime":4304.99,"body":"report in by a certain time, that that"},{"startTime":4305.1,"endTime":4306.9,"body":"meant there was probably a problem."},{"startTime":4307.59,"endTime":4309.514,"body":"So we did start to interview them."},{"startTime":4309.552,"endTime":4310.61,"body":"We did start to gather"},{"startTime":4310.67,"endTime":4312.72,"body":"intelligence and additional information."},{"startTime":4314.13,"endTime":4318.674,"body":"But for a series of reasons that still aggravate"},{"startTime":4318.722,"endTime":4323.77,"body":"me, we weren't allowed to pursue those new evidence."},{"startTime":4324.45,"endTime":4326.782,"body":"We were basically said, you accomplished what"},{"startTime":4326.796,"endTime":4328.426,"body":"you were supposed to, shut it down."},{"startTime":4328.548,"endTime":4332.29,"body":"So they were telling you about other links that"},{"startTime":4332.34,"endTime":4337.438,"body":"El Chapo had higher up in the Mexican government."},{"startTime":4337.524,"endTime":4340.2,"body":"Is that okay to say? Yes? Okay."},{"startTime":4341.89,"endTime":4342.47,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4342.58,"endTime":4343.718,"body":"Not to pursue that."},{"startTime":4343.804,"endTime":4345.638,"body":"We were told that we had achieved our"},{"startTime":4345.664,"endTime":4349.48,"body":"objectives because we were basically a drug case"},{"startTime":4350.35,"endTime":4352.658,"body":"and we now seize the drugs. We'd arrested them."},{"startTime":4352.684,"endTime":4355.922,"body":"That we had accomplished our objectives, that we"},{"startTime":4355.936,"endTime":4358.07,"body":"were now going down a different path."},{"startTime":4358.45,"endTime":4360.77,"body":"And that wasn't authorized."},{"startTime":4361.87,"endTime":4364.142,"body":"It's just the internal workings of"},{"startTime":4364.156,"endTime":4367.42,"body":"the legal system in the FBI. Yeah."},{"startTime":4369.01,"endTime":4372.698,"body":"You can speculate if there was other reasons, but"},{"startTime":4372.724,"endTime":4378.64,"body":"again, we were told that our job was done. Okay."},{"startTime":4378.97,"endTime":4381.35,"body":"And they go to trial."},{"startTime":4382.09,"endTime":4386.93,"body":"Everybody pled guilty except the lawyer."},{"startTime":4387.79,"endTime":4389.906,"body":"The lawyer is always the smartest guy in the room."},{"startTime":4389.968,"endTime":4394.458,"body":"Remember, he went to trial. He went to trial."},{"startTime":4394.494,"endTime":4395.93,"body":"I think it lasted five days."},{"startTime":4395.98,"endTime":4397.394,"body":"And he was convicted on all"},{"startTime":4397.432,"endTime":4399.58,"body":"counts in less than 5 hours."},{"startTime":4400.03,"endTime":4401.654,"body":"Okay, so these guys were all"},{"startTime":4401.692,"endTime":4404.01,"body":"pulled away except for Chapo."},{"startTime":4404.13,"endTime":4406.05,"body":"Everybody got arrested."},{"startTime":4406.11,"endTime":4407.87,"body":"Everyone was convicted."},{"startTime":4408.61,"endTime":4411.58,"body":"They averaged about 20 to 25 years each."},{"startTime":4412.21,"endTime":4416.25,"body":"And then Chapo obviously was beyond"},{"startTime":4416.31,"endTime":4417.722,"body":"our grasp at the time."},{"startTime":4417.856,"endTime":4420.594,"body":"And then he was later obviously captured"},{"startTime":4420.642,"endTime":4423.52,"body":"and extradited to the United States."},{"startTime":4423.97,"endTime":4427.494,"body":"Yeah, I think it was grabbed in 2016."},{"startTime":4427.542,"endTime":4430.142,"body":"I think it's 2016, correct? Yeah."},{"startTime":4430.336,"endTime":4431.426,"body":"January of 2016."},{"startTime":4431.428,"endTime":4436.266,"body":"And you got the word of that arrest?"},{"startTime":4436.398,"endTime":4439.874,"body":"The case agent called me or texted me,"},{"startTime":4439.912,"endTime":4444.28,"body":"and it just said, we got him, and"},{"startTime":4445.15,"endTime":4448.442,"body":"there was no further explanation needed. Right."},{"startTime":4448.576,"endTime":4449.98,"body":"You knew who he met?"},{"startTime":4450.85,"endTime":4453.054,"body":"When they said, we got him, I said, hopefully"},{"startTime":4453.102,"endTime":4456.842,"body":"they'll hold on to him this time, because as"},{"startTime":4456.856,"endTime":4459.422,"body":"we know, he fled a second time before we"},{"startTime":4459.436,"endTime":4462.53,"body":"were able to actually get him right. For good."},{"startTime":4462.7,"endTime":4464.358,"body":"And that's another fallacy."},{"startTime":4464.454,"endTime":4465.798,"body":"TV and films."},{"startTime":4465.954,"endTime":4467.57,"body":"The day of the arrest is the last."},{"startTime":4467.62,"endTime":4469.958,"body":"No, that's just the start of the process."},{"startTime":4470.044,"endTime":4472.538,"body":"What good is working three years if"},{"startTime":4472.564,"endTime":4474.17,"body":"these guys don't go to jail?"},{"startTime":4474.61,"endTime":4477.582,"body":"What do you know about the raid"},{"startTime":4477.666,"endTime":4482.478,"body":"in Mexico where they finally grab Chapo?"},{"startTime":4482.634,"endTime":4484.766,"body":"Were you privy to any of that?"},{"startTime":4484.828,"endTime":4487.202,"body":"Or was that just a phone call where you heard"},{"startTime":4487.336,"endTime":4489.614,"body":"they got did you know it was in the process?"},{"startTime":4489.652,"endTime":4491.654,"body":"I want to be careful how I present this."},{"startTime":4491.752,"endTime":4493.694,"body":"I would say that I was"},{"startTime":4493.732,"endTime":4497.21,"body":"not surprised when he was arrested."},{"startTime":4497.65,"endTime":4499.938,"body":"I knew that they were getting closer and closer."},{"startTime":4499.974,"endTime":4503.258,"body":"They don't call us up and tell us everything, but"},{"startTime":4503.344,"endTime":4505.97,"body":"we're kept because we're one of the offices with a"},{"startTime":4506.02,"endTime":4511.12,"body":"prosecution, we knew that they were tightening the news."},{"startTime":4511.93,"endTime":4515.294,"body":"It was clear that Mexico had kind of had"},{"startTime":4515.332,"endTime":4517.754,"body":"its fill of Chapo and was willing to work"},{"startTime":4517.792,"endTime":4520.202,"body":"with the United States becoming a liability. Yes."},{"startTime":4520.396,"endTime":4523.37,"body":"It affects the State Department, many things"},{"startTime":4523.42,"endTime":4525.738,"body":"outside of the law enforcement arena."},{"startTime":4525.894,"endTime":4528.138,"body":"The squeeze was being made on Mexico."},{"startTime":4528.234,"endTime":4530.858,"body":"So, like I said, I didn't know exactly"},{"startTime":4530.944,"endTime":4532.25,"body":"when and where they would get him."},{"startTime":4532.3,"endTime":4534.314,"body":"It was a vicious shootout. I know that. Right."},{"startTime":4534.352,"endTime":4537.17,"body":"And I give a tremendous amount of credit"},{"startTime":4537.22,"endTime":4541.178,"body":"to the Mexican Marines that went and got"},{"startTime":4541.204,"endTime":4544.42,"body":"him because it was a nasty situation."},{"startTime":4544.75,"endTime":4546.11,"body":"People were killed."},{"startTime":4546.97,"endTime":4548.322,"body":"I know bad guys were killed."},{"startTime":4548.346,"endTime":4549.762,"body":"I don't know if any good guys were killed."},{"startTime":4549.786,"endTime":4551.174,"body":"I just don't remember."},{"startTime":4551.272,"endTime":4552.89,"body":"Yeah, but the Mexicans"},{"startTime":4554.17,"endTime":4556.96,"body":"basically arrested him themselves. Yes."},{"startTime":4557.29,"endTime":4558.53,"body":"The United States."},{"startTime":4558.7,"endTime":4560.31,"body":"We extradited."},{"startTime":4560.37,"endTime":4564.206,"body":"The United States and Mexico work together, but"},{"startTime":4564.268,"endTime":4566.438,"body":"the actual and again, I would like the"},{"startTime":4566.464,"endTime":4568.66,"body":"same thing if it was on our side."},{"startTime":4569.29,"endTime":4572.27,"body":"They arrested their own, and they handed them over."},{"startTime":4572.44,"endTime":4574.13,"body":"I'm sure we made it very clear"},{"startTime":4574.18,"endTime":4576.542,"body":"to them that we wanted him."},{"startTime":4576.676,"endTime":4579.494,"body":"The political pressure exerted on"},{"startTime":4579.532,"endTime":4583.41,"body":"Mexico had to be incredible."},{"startTime":4583.53,"endTime":4586.478,"body":"But we weren't going to give up."},{"startTime":4586.504,"endTime":4587.438,"body":"We weren't going to stop."},{"startTime":4587.524,"endTime":4591.122,"body":"So they finally decided it was in"},{"startTime":4591.136,"endTime":4594.16,"body":"their best interest to turn them over. Right."},{"startTime":4594.85,"endTime":4596.87,"body":"And then he was extradited here."},{"startTime":4596.98,"endTime":4598.094,"body":"He was extradited here."},{"startTime":4598.132,"endTime":4599.98,"body":"He was put on trial in New York."},{"startTime":4601.51,"endTime":4603.414,"body":"There were historical cases"},{"startTime":4603.522,"endTime":4604.922,"body":"throughout the United States."},{"startTime":4605.056,"endTime":4607.55,"body":"Chapo had been a target of the US."},{"startTime":4607.6,"endTime":4609.446,"body":"Government for many years."},{"startTime":4609.508,"endTime":4611.586,"body":"Chicago, New York, Houston."},{"startTime":4611.778,"endTime":4615.974,"body":"So all of the cases we had, the only"},{"startTime":4616.012,"endTime":4622.71,"body":"case that had the simultaneous evidence, the time evidence,"},{"startTime":4622.89,"endTime":4625.658,"body":"all of our evidence was collected and forwarded to"},{"startTime":4625.684,"endTime":4630.04,"body":"Washington, and then it was prosecuted in New York."},{"startTime":4631.57,"endTime":4635.202,"body":"And obviously he was convicted and sentenced"},{"startTime":4635.226,"endTime":4638.99,"body":"to life in prison in the Supermax."},{"startTime":4639.37,"endTime":4640.48,"body":"What a case."},{"startTime":4641.11,"endTime":4644.382,"body":"And how was that received in the FBI?"},{"startTime":4644.526,"endTime":4645.818,"body":"That must have been a big deal."},{"startTime":4645.904,"endTime":4647.202,"body":"It was well received."},{"startTime":4647.346,"endTime":4648.578,"body":"It was a big deal."},{"startTime":4648.724,"endTime":4649.766,"body":"It's interesting."},{"startTime":4649.948,"endTime":4651.434,"body":"From where we started to where we"},{"startTime":4651.472,"endTime":4654.794,"body":"finished, there were some people that never"},{"startTime":4654.832,"endTime":4656.502,"body":"thought it would happen, which I understood."},{"startTime":4656.586,"endTime":4658.05,"body":"It was a long shot."},{"startTime":4658.23,"endTime":4661.322,"body":"There were other people who were very supportive, and"},{"startTime":4661.396,"endTime":4665.138,"body":"there were times that we, as the investigators, would"},{"startTime":4665.164,"endTime":4668.99,"body":"get frustrated, and then we would talk to certain"},{"startTime":4669.04,"endTime":4672.242,"body":"people, and they'd say, hey, keep your head down."},{"startTime":4672.436,"endTime":4675.062,"body":"Keep going until they don't answer your phone call."},{"startTime":4675.256,"endTime":4675.962,"body":"Keep going."},{"startTime":4676.036,"endTime":4677.62,"body":"It's going well, yeah."},{"startTime":4678.13,"endTime":4681.074,"body":"People don't recognize that's three years of"},{"startTime":4681.112,"endTime":4683.114,"body":"work that each time we contact them,"},{"startTime":4683.152,"endTime":4684.7,"body":"it could blow up in our face."},{"startTime":4685.33,"endTime":4688.72,"body":"So that's like constant pressure for three years."},{"startTime":4689.95,"endTime":4694.31,"body":"And when it was over and done with, I was very proud."},{"startTime":4695.23,"endTime":4696.962,"body":"And again, I told you, I got a lot of"},{"startTime":4696.976,"endTime":4701.078,"body":"accolades, but the people most responsible for that success was"},{"startTime":4701.104,"endTime":4704.99,"body":"the case agent, the informant, and the other three undercover."},{"startTime":4705.79,"endTime":4708.018,"body":"But don't think that just because Chapo"},{"startTime":4708.054,"endTime":4710.502,"body":"was taken off the streets that they're"},{"startTime":4710.526,"endTime":4713.51,"body":"still a very powerful organization."},{"startTime":4715.21,"endTime":4717.7,"body":"We heard them pretty good back then."},{"startTime":4718.09,"endTime":4720.998,"body":"They took a hit for a while, but as long"},{"startTime":4721.024,"endTime":4723.738,"body":"as there's a demand for drugs, there'll be cartels."},{"startTime":4723.894,"endTime":4726.47,"body":"Whether it's Mexico whether it's Europe"},{"startTime":4727.33,"endTime":4728.8,"body":"It's just the way it is."},{"startTime":4730.51,"endTime":4733.73,"body":"It was never simply a case of seizing El Chapo."},{"startTime":4734.11,"endTime":4736.238,"body":"In order to lock him away in prison, the"},{"startTime":4736.264,"endTime":4739.12,"body":"FBI had to make a legal case against him."},{"startTime":4739.57,"endTime":4741.866,"body":"Mike and his team accomplished that"},{"startTime":4741.988,"endTime":4744.114,"body":"over three years in a brilliantly"},{"startTime":4744.162,"endTime":4747.11,"body":"planned and executed undercover operation."},{"startTime":4747.61,"endTime":4751.622,"body":"On August 7, 2012, mike and his team had"},{"startTime":4751.636,"endTime":4755.058,"body":"arrested eight top members of the Sinnella cartel."},{"startTime":4755.154,"endTime":4756.47,"body":"A few days later, the US."},{"startTime":4756.52,"endTime":4759.378,"body":"Justice Department issued an indictment of El Chapo."},{"startTime":4759.474,"endTime":4763.77,"body":"On January 7, 2016, el Chapo was arrested in Mexico."},{"startTime":4763.89,"endTime":4765.842,"body":"Soon after that, he was extradited to"},{"startTime":4765.856,"endTime":4767.586,"body":"the US and put on trial."},{"startTime":4767.718,"endTime":4770.57,"body":"The evidence against him was incontrovertible."},{"startTime":4770.89,"endTime":4774.726,"body":"Shortly after the trial, then FBI Director James Comey"},{"startTime":4774.798,"endTime":4777.182,"body":"traveled to Boston to handle wards to Mike and"},{"startTime":4777.196,"endTime":4779.774,"body":"the other FBI agents who had worked the case."},{"startTime":4779.932,"endTime":4781.914,"body":"When it was Mike's turn to go to the podium,"},{"startTime":4781.962,"endTime":4785.414,"body":"he remembered looking at Director Comey and thinking that the"},{"startTime":4785.452,"endTime":4788.658,"body":"FBI leadership had actually let them down, and it shut"},{"startTime":4788.694,"endTime":4791.68,"body":"off their investigations for reasons he didn't understand."},{"startTime":4792.49,"endTime":4796.098,"body":"In his own words, he thought, what the fuck"},{"startTime":4796.134,"endTime":4799.3,"body":"does outside the scope of your original objective mean?"},{"startTime":4800.77,"endTime":4802.66,"body":"That's how Mike's mind works."},{"startTime":4803.05,"endTime":4806.078,"body":"The case was a huge success, but make no"},{"startTime":4806.104,"endTime":4810.546,"body":"mistake about it, the Sinaloa cartel continues to smuggle"},{"startTime":4810.678,"endTime":4813.82,"body":"huge amounts of illegal drugs into the United States."},{"startTime":4814.33,"endTime":4817.562,"body":"Just before El Chapo went to trial, mike and"},{"startTime":4817.576,"endTime":4820.374,"body":"I met for lunch in Santa Monica, California."},{"startTime":4820.542,"endTime":4824.138,"body":"As we entered a cafe on Third Street, mike sort"},{"startTime":4824.164,"endTime":4827.354,"body":"of maneuvered to a certain table in the back."},{"startTime":4827.512,"endTime":4829.466,"body":"He turned to me and said, ralph, do"},{"startTime":4829.468,"endTime":4831.95,"body":"you mind if I sit facing the door?"},{"startTime":4832.27,"endTime":4834.938,"body":"And I said, no, not at all. Why?"},{"startTime":4835.084,"endTime":4839.798,"body":"And he said, Well, I'm a major witness in"},{"startTime":4839.824,"endTime":4842.498,"body":"the case against El Chapo, and they might have"},{"startTime":4842.524,"endTime":4844.78,"body":"some people, like, looking out for me."},{"startTime":4845.17,"endTime":4847.074,"body":"It's like oh, okay, Mike."},{"startTime":4847.242,"endTime":4848.8,"body":"Thanks for letting me know."},{"startTime":4849.61,"endTime":4851.39,"body":"But that's Mike McGowan."},{"startTime":4853.85,"endTime":4857.01,"body":"Thanks for listening, and don't forget to subscribe."},{"startTime":4857.69,"endTime":4859.122,"body":"And make sure to tune in to"},{"startTime":4859.136,"endTime":4862.35,"body":"the next episode of Heroes Behind Headlines."},{"startTime":4878.79,"endTime":4879.05,"body":"Bye."}]}