Since we launched our Environmental Voices podcast in early 2022 we’ve produced 6 podcasts featuring interviews with 22 different people fighting to protect the environment in Pennsylvania and beyond. We’ve heard from artists and activists, authors and attorneys. We’ve been able to interview some pretty well-known voices including climate scientist Michael Mann, Secretary of the Department of Conservation and Natural Resources Cindy Dunn, and acclaimed activist Bill McKibben, and we’ve brought some new voices to you that you may not have heard from otherwise.
For our last podcast of 2022, we bring you two influential voices, each a leader in advocating for environmental protections in the Commonwealth: PennFuture’s new CEO & President, Patrick McDonnell and author, activist, and Delaware River Keeper Maya van Rossum who will talk about her new book, The Green Amendment.
Maya van Rossum has served as the Delaware Riverkeeper and leader for the Delaware Riverkeeper Network since 1994. She was one of the original petitioners in the landmark Robinson Township v. Commonwealth of Pennsylvania case decided by the PA Supreme Court in 2013 which strengthened environmental standing opportunities, declared unconstitutional key sections of the pro-drilling Act 13 legislation, and reinvigorated the strength of Pennsylvania Constitution’s Environmental Rights Amendment. Since then she has created the Green Amendments for the Generations organization. Most recently, Disruption Books has published the second edition of her book The Green Amendment – the people’s fight for a clean, safe, and healthy environment.
Patrick McDonnell, the new CEO & President of PennFuture. Based in Harrisburg, Patrick brings over 20 years of experience on climate, clean energy and environmental issues to PennFuture. Prior to joining the nonprofit, he spent six years as Secretary of the Pennsylvania Department of Environmental Protection, leading key initiatives like passage of the state’s first carbon trading regulation, acceleration of the Commonwealth’s cleanup of waterways and a new focus on environmental justice issues. He also served as President of the Environmental Council of the States, the voice of state environmental agencies nationally.
For more information about PennFuture, visit pennfuture.org
Since we launched our Environmental Voices podcast in early 2022 we’ve produced 6 podcasts featuring interviews with 22 different people fighting to protect the environment in Pennsylvania and beyond. We’ve heard from artists and activists, authors and attorneys. We’ve been able to interview some pretty well-known voices including climate scientist Michael Mann, Secretary of the Department of Conservation and Natural Resources Cindy Dunn, and acclaimed activist Bill McKibben, and we’ve brought some new voices to you that you may not have heard from otherwise.
For our last podcast of 2022, we bring you two influential voices, each a leader in advocating for environmental protections in the Commonwealth: PennFuture’s new CEO & President, Patrick McDonnell and author, activist, and Delaware River Keeper Maya van Rossum who will talk about her new book, The Green Amendment.
Maya van Rossum has served as the Delaware Riverkeeper and leader for the Delaware Riverkeeper Network since 1994. She was one of the original petitioners in the landmark Robinson Township v. Commonwealth of Pennsylvania case decided by the PA Supreme Court in 2013 which strengthened environmental standing opportunities, declared unconstitutional key sections of the pro-drilling Act 13 legislation, and reinvigorated the strength of Pennsylvania Constitution’s Environmental Rights Amendment. Since then she has created the Green Amendments for the Generations organization. Most recently, Disruption Books has published the second edition of her book The Green Amendment – the people’s fight for a clean, safe, and healthy environment.
Patrick McDonnell, the new CEO & President of PennFuture. Based in Harrisburg, Patrick brings over 20 years of experience on climate, clean energy and environmental issues to PennFuture. Prior to joining the nonprofit, he spent six years as Secretary of the Pennsylvania Department of Environmental Protection, leading key initiatives like passage of the state’s first carbon trading regulation, acceleration of the Commonwealth’s cleanup of waterways and a new focus on environmental justice issues. He also served as President of the Environmental Council of the States, the voice of state environmental agencies nationally.
For more information about PennFuture, visit pennfuture.org
Welcome back to another episode of Environmental Voices Append Future Podcast. My name is Travis Dina Penn Future's Director of Development, and I'm your host. Environmental Voices is sponsored by Penn Future Pennsylvania's watchdog for clean air, clean water, and clean energy. You can find out more and become a member@pennfuture.org. Since we've launched our Environmental Voices Podcast in early 2022, we produced six podcasts featuring interviews with 22 different people fighting to protect the environment in Pennsylvania and beyond. We've heard from artists and activists, authors and attorneys, we've been able to interview some pretty well-known voices, including climate scientist Michael Mann, secretary of the Department of Conservation and Natural Resources, Cindy Dunn, an acclaimed activist, bill McKibbon, and we've brought some new voices to you whom you may have not have heard from otherwise. For our last podcast of 2022, we bring you two influential voices each, a leader in advocating for environmental protections in the Commonwealth. In the second half of the show, we'll introduce you to Penn Future's new CEO o and President Patrick McDonald. But first up, we'll talk with author, activist and Delaware Riverkeeper Maya Van Rossum, who will talk about her new book, the Green Amendment. Maya has served as the Delaware River Keeper and leader for the Delaware Riverkeeper Network since 1994. She was one of the original petitioners in the landmark Robinson Township versus the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania case, decided by the Pennsylvania Supreme Court in 2013, which strengthened environmental standing opportunities, declared unconstitutional key sections of the Pro-D Drilling Act 13 legislation, and reinvigorated the strength of the Pennsylvania Constitution's Environmental Rights Amendment. Since then, she has created the Green Amendments for the Generations organization. Most recently, disruption Books has published the second edition of her book, the Green Amendment, the People's Fight for a Clean, safe, and Healthy Environment. Maya, welcome to Environmental Voices.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. And congratulations on the publication of your book, the Green Amendment. It is just fantastic.
Speaker 2:Oh, I really appreciate your saying that. Thank you so much. It's certainly, it was a labor of love, but I am glad that it's out in the world.
Speaker 1:I'm sure you are. Yeah. Well, we are gonna talk a lot about, about the book, uh, in just a minute, but I wanted to ask you a question that I, I guess I still like, I don't quite get, and I feel like, like maybe some other people don't either, and that is, what exactly is a river keeper? Like, what does that mean, and how do you get to be, it's a great title, but like, is it a, is it a government title? Is it a nonprofit thing? Tell me more about what it means to be a river keeper.
Speaker 2:So the Delaware River Keeper is a person, and I am the person that has the honor of bearing that title. Um, and my technical job description is to be the voice of the Delaware River and to make sure that when actions and decisions are being taken and being made out in the world mm-hmm.<affirmative>, where the Delaware River or its tributaries will be impacted, that the river protection is prioritized and the needs of the river are not just understood and heard, but are given highest priority in the decision making process. Um, but of course mm-hmm.<affirmative> giving a river a voice and an entire watershed, a voice in our human world is more than the job of that one person can do. It really is the job of a community. And so I do have a non-profit organization called the Delaware River Keeper Network, where I have a staff of professionals, and I also have tens of thousands of members who all work with me to help give the river a voice to help make sure that watershed protection, um, is prioritized.
Speaker 1:So is it the organiz, is it the organization that gives you the title then? Is that how that works? Yes. Cool.
Speaker 2:Do you get It's, but I was, well, I was given, I<laugh> I was given the title or position about 30 years ago. Okay. Um, and you know how I always say sort of how I, how I came to be in this fortunate place and to have this honor, it's really the universe put me where I need to be pretty early on. Um, and it really was a decision that came organically mm-hmm.<affirmative>, but it did come from the community that, you know, the, the, the watershed community, the members of our organization, the staff members that were my team at the time, it was a much smaller, smaller staff at the time mm-hmm.<affirmative> as well as the Board of directors, um, listening to everybody. And again, I just, um, was very fortunate and, and, um, it's a true, it's been the honor of my life and a great joy.
Speaker 1:That's very cool. Thank you for explaining it. I do appreciate that. It, uh, certainly makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 2:Well, I hope it, I hope it helps. I think the one of the things too to just really know about, um, about being the Delaware River keeper, that that's important I think for people to understand is, is one, it's part of my role is really to demonstrate the power and importance of each and every one of us taking personal responsibility for protecting our rivers, for protecting our environment. So it's sort of the embodiment of that concept, and I take that very, very seriously. And then the other thing I think it's important to know is that the, the way we feel at the Delaware River Keeper Network, that, that, that, that, um, responsibility needs to be taken on is really by engaging in advocacy when necessary going into the courts, using legal resources to very much give the river a voice and when necessary to fight the good fight, you know, to make sure the river is heard. So we're very much an, an advocacy organization and organization that does do legal action and an organization that is very much about helping people to really get enmeshed in environmental protection in all of its many forms, including doing research projects. Right. Um, community research projects and restoration projects, but it's primarily about advocacy and litigation,
Speaker 1:Which leads us perfectly to your book, the Green Amendment, which is essentially, I mean, there's a lot of history in here, which I want to talk about, but in many ways, the book is a, a how-to book for advocates in other states to essentially do what you've been able to do here in Pennsylvania.
Speaker 2:Uh, yes, it is. Um, but of course, in Pennsylvania, and I know we're gonna talk about it mm-hmm.<affirmative>, we had a lot of early help from Senator Franklin Curry. Yep. Which is really the, the, um, originator of the Pennsylvania Green Amendment. It wasn't called a Green Amendment at the time, that's sort of my term and terminology. Um, but, um, it, it is, and we'll talk about it, but it is an outgrowth of his original vision Yep. For environmental rights protection that, um, I, and my role as the Delaware River Keyer of my organization, working with a team of attorneys, had the honor of taking on and carrying forward to fruition in the modern era. And then the Green Amendment movement, well,
Speaker 1:Hold on a minute. Let's, let's hold on. Hold on. We're, let's, let's start with, let's start with Franklin Curry. Okay. And we'll get to the rest of it in just a minute. Okay. So, 50 years ago when he was a, a junior state legislator, Franklin Curry got Article one, section 27 passed, which is really the foundation of this book in your work. So tell me a bit about, let's start with that.
Speaker 2:So, yes. So Franklin Curry, Senator Curry, um, had a vision that the best way to protect our environment, um, in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, but also nationwide, is to lift up the right to a clean, safe, and healthy environment. To, um, so we just given the same highest constitutional standing recognition and protection as the other fundamental rights we hold dear things like the right to free speech and freedom of religion, private property rights, and more. We all know how powerfully they're protected could, they're recognized and protected in the Bill of Rights section of our state and federal constitutions. Mm-hmm.<affirmative> and Senator Curry, um, in the legislature at, at, at a time when Pennsylvania's environment was being so decimated by industries of all kinds, recognized that by giving the environment this same highest constitutional standing, we were really changing the, the landscape when it came to environmental protection by creating an enforceable environmental right. Of the people. And so we put forth the idea, and it passed in 1971, and it is now Article one section 27 of the Pennsylvania Constitution. It passed through both houses of the legislature unanimously, and it passed, um, was passed into the Constitution by a vote of the people. Um, and their vote was, uh, four to one vote. So there was overwhelming support at the time that this was added to the Constitution by Senator Curry.
Speaker 1:So, I, I, I have had the pleasure to meet Senator Curry, Franklin Curry a couple times, and he is just such a kind nice man. I wanna read, uh, the this, um, uh, the Article one section 27 right now, so that people know exactly what's in it. The people have a right to clean air, pure water, and in the preservation of the natural scenic, historic and aesthetic values of the environment, Pennsylvania's public natural resources are the common property of all the people, including generations yet to come as trustee of these resources. The commonwealth shall conserve and maintain them for the benefit of all the people. So I love that, and I especially love that it talks about generations yet to come. It is a very, very cool amendment. But if I understand it right, Maya, to some extent, it was almost, mm, maybe not forgotten, but certainly not enforced until, um, you got involved with the fight against Act 13, which I want to you to tell me about in just a minute. But is that right? Was it kind of just like, almost set aside for many years, this, this amendment,
Speaker 2:You're 100% right. And the reason why it was set aside was very early on, people brought some lawsuits based on, um, article one, section 27, the Pennsylvania Environmental Rates Amendment mm-hmm.<affirmative> that really, they had no business trying to use this environmental, this powerful environmental rights language that you just characterized. They had no business trying to use it in the various legal contexts that they were seeking to use it. It was like a real overreach. One of the most famous cases was an effort to try to prevent an educational viewing tower that was to be built offsite, looking out over the Gettysburg Battlefield. And so, as a result of that overreach mm-hmm.<affirmative> very early on, the Pennsylvania Supreme Court undermined the amendment and declared it to be just a statement of policy, which in the legal arena is basically good advice. And so they robbed it of all its legal strength almost as soon as it was added to the Constitution
Speaker 1:Until Act 13. Right.
Speaker 2:Until Act 13. Go ahead. In 12, yep. Yeah. In 2012, um, fracking was already happening in Pennsylvania. It had come to the Commonwealth and was really having very devastating consequences for Pennsylvania's, um, environments and communities. And given the state of the law at the time, it was pretty easy for the industry to advance, but the industry, um, wanted to find a way to make it even easier for itself. So they very literally, industry leaders went behind closed doors and wrote a piece of legislation that came to be known as Act 13, and that was going to make it even easier for the industry to, to progress mm-hmm.<affirmative>. Um, and just by way of two examples, it did a lot of bad things, but one of the things it did was put in place automatic waivers of environmental protection standards that would apply to any other industry, but now wouldn't apply to fracking. Wow. And it preempted local zoning authority. So local municipal officials couldn't limit these industrial fracking operations through zoning to the portion of their community where other industrial operations happen. This state law actually mandated that fracking be allowed to happen in every part of every community in the commonwealth, including in the heart of residential communities. And so, while Franken was already happening, it was going to be allowed to expand exponentially across the commonwealth.
Speaker 1:There were some other pretty crazy things in it too. I mean, the one about doctors not being able to, well, well, you tell, tell it better, but I mean, I was reading this, I'm just like, what? I mean the limitations on doctors being able to treat people who were affected by, by the fracking water.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So there was a medical gag rule they called it. And so, um, if a patient went to a doctor, um, and, and it was a patient that was seriously ill and had become, you know, potentially become that way mm-hmm.<affirmative> because of exposure to fracking operations and chemicals, the only way that a doctor could get information from the potentially responsible company about the chemicals that their patient had been exposed to was to sign a document that said they would not talk to anybody about the information that the company provided them, including other doctors they might wanna consult with about their patient. Right. And they couldn't even talk to the patients themselves. So it was very extreme, and like every other aspect of this law was a real overreach by the industry and by the Pennsylvania legislators. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, who in 2012 actually passed the law, and by Governor Corbett, who's the one that signed it into, um, you know, actually into law at the time.
Speaker 1:That is so amazing to me. So I was not living in Pennsylvania at the time. I'm, I'm from here, but I was living in Indiana at the time, and so I had not heard any of this until I was reading your book. And I'm just like, you gotta be kidding me.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It even said if, if the fracking companies were potentially responsible for contamination of, of private drinking water wells, they were, um, alleviated of the obligation to let the homeowners know. Right. So, right. I mean, that's pretty extreme. Somebody contaminates your water with toxic contamination, some industry mm-hmm.<affirmative>, and they don't have to tell you. You then become sick, and the only way your doctor can get information to potentially help you is by signing a waiver with the company that they won't even tell you about the chemicals that you've been exposed to. I mean, all the way around it, it's all the way around my within overreach.
Speaker 1:It just boggles the mind. Anyway, so thankfully you and your team, uh, fought this and Yes. Did it with Pennsylvania's Green Amendment and did it successfully. Thank you. Tell me about that.
Speaker 2:So, um, you know, at the Delaware River Keeper Network, we have been fighting against fracking for a long time. And in fact, the reason why you don't have any fracking anywhere within the boundaries of the Delaware River Watershed is largely because of the leadership of the Delaware River Keeper Network. But when this Act 13 was passed, even though it wasn't going to allow fracking in our watershed, fracking anywhere is bad for all of us everywhere. And of course, additional fracking would pump up the pressure mm-hmm.<affirmative> to, um, allow fracking to be forced into the watershed. So at the Delaware Riverkeeper Network, we knew we had to take on Act 13. The thing is, how do you take on a law passed by the legislature and find by the governor? There aren't too many options unless you have a higher power. And we recognize that this law was such a serious overreach when it came to, um, removing environmental protections and advancing the fracking industry, that maybe we were in a moment in time when we could overturn what was at that point, 42 years of bad precedents that had robbed Article one section 27 of its legal strength. And so we decided that was gonna be the cornerstone of our legal arguments. We had already known that there were seven towns that wanted to challenge Act 13 as well. So we teamed up together, they brought some additional legal arguments to the joint venture, and represented by Jordan Yeager and Jonathan, Jonathan Smith and John Cayman, we challenged the law and our, um, long story short mm-hmm.<affirmative>, a very Pennsylvania Supreme Court at the time, was very conservative, led by Chief Justice Ronald Castile, very conservative justice. But in December of 2013, we did get this amazing victory where the provisions of Act 13 that we were challenging were in fact to be dec, were in fact declared to be unconstitutional, because they would violate that long ignored environmental rights amendment. And so with that victory, we defeated the provisions of Act 13 that we were challenging, but we also breeded legal life mm-hmm.<affirmative> into that long, ignored environmental rights amendment. Now, there were other, there were other important elements to that decision, you know, that, that, that, um, the towns that joined with us had advanced, but really what came to be a key cornerstone of the entire victory was the use of Article one, section 27, and the obligation on the court and on government to protect the environmental rights of the people of Pennsylvania and their natural resources for present and future generations.
Speaker 1:That is so fantastic. Now, I mean, obviously it, it's, it's not a golden or a silver bullet or a, a golden ticket or what have you. It's, I mean, we still have fracking and certainly lots of other issues, but because that amendment has been recognized as being more than just a suggestion, uh, many other attorneys have been able to use it in their fight to protect Pennsylvania's environment.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And I, and, and, and that so well said. I, I will say, I, I truly believe if we had had a living, breathing, thriving, article one section 27, when the frackers tried to enter into the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania mm-hmm.<affirmative> and advance their industrial operations, I believe that we could have used Article one Section 27 to keep them out. The science and the data and the experiences were plenty to keep them out, but as it turns out, the Frackers got here first. And so now we are in a situation where we have to now decide and define what does it mean to have this constitutional right, um, in the context of an industry that already exists, whether it's the fracking industry, pharmaceuticals, or any number of industries. So we're in a different posture in different place mm-hmm.<affirmative>. Um, but you're right. Uh, article one, section 27 has been used in really powerful ways. In fact, it was the cornerstone of our successful arguments that have resulted in the, the advance of drinking water, um, drinking water protections when it comes to pfas contamination. It's been the cornerstone of our successful effort to get a long, ignored, toxic site in the commonwealth of Pennsylvania now on the past to clean up. It's been critical to supporting a municipality that wanted to protect an old growth beach forest from development. The last remaining, um, critical, um, natural resource in this quickly urbanizing town outside of Philadelphia mm-hmm.<affirmative>, it's been used by other organizations to, um, protect natural resource dollars within the, um, within the budget. Not allowing them to sort of be co-opted to fill the general operating budget, but be required to protect natural resources. I mean, truthfully, there are many important and powerful ways, both through successful litigation and through successful advocacy. Now that Article one, section 27 has changed the landscape and is changing the landscape of environmental protection here in the commonwealth of Pennsylvania. And it's one of the reasons why I've been able to use it so successfully to inspire this kind of protection nationwide.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So let's talk about that, because I mean, as I said, that so much of the book is really kind of a, a how-to for advocates in other states to use Green Amendments to their constitution, to, uh, fight for environmental issues. Uh, and, and is it, am I still correct that there's only one other state that right now has a green amendment, or, or there are a couple more right now.
Speaker 2:So what, so when I, when I, um, when we had our Act 13 victory mm-hmm.<affirmative> and I sort of decided that I was going to, I, I had what I call my Green Amendment epiphany and decided I was going to get this powerful constitutional protection nationwide. I looked at what was unique about Pennsylvania's constitution, defined it to be a Green Amendment, looked at every state constitution nationwide, and found that at that time, only Montana Right. Had a similar Right mm-hmm.<affirmative>. And then I embarked on this journey, and Ashley, in November of 2021, um, a Green Amendment was passed in the state of New York. It's written differently than Pennsylvania's. Every state green amendment that's advancing now is different depending on the state. Sure. So New York's is very different from Pennsylvania, but it does the same thing conceptually lifting up environmental rights. So they're on par with those other fundamental freedoms like speech and religion and civil rights.
Speaker 1:Excellent. So I, I imagine, I mean, you have been consulting with other states.
Speaker 2:So what, what I've done, and, and, and the first edition of my book was, was really written in a way to say, Hey, here's this great idea. Go forth and do it. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. Um, and then since 2017, as I've been doing this work, what I've come to recognize and realize and experience is that's not really enough to help people do this successfully. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, it's a simple concept, but it's actually quite complex to get right. And people need to have, um, the knowledge and the ability to fend off the inevitable attacks from industry and the, the, the false arguments from the opposition. And so what I've come to recognize is that to truly have a successful Green Amendment movement, what I, what we need to do is partner up. And so I bring my knowledge and my experience, um, both just with Pennsylvania and the law, but also from all the different states where I'm now working. Mm-hmm.<affirmative> and I, I partner up and work with the communities in each state to help them identify what is the right language that best reflects their state and their goals. What are the best strategies, um, you know, in grassroots organizing and educational programming that will help them advance this idea. And then I serve as an expert whenever there are challenges, um, where they need, you know, to fend off against, again, that false argument. Or when there are legislators or government officials who are trying to understand what this actually means, and then, you know, help them bring my expertise to, to help answer the questions and serve at as an expert in any number of forums. And so that's how the Green Amendment movement is advancing at this point. And in the new book, I really do make that point, as you said, in some ways, it's a blueprint for how to do it, but part of the blueprint is please don't try to go do it on your own. Let's partner up and do it together. We'll be more successful and more efficient, and we won't be recreating the wheel in right ways and or wrong ways.
Speaker 1:My, can you share with me a story of maybe a state that you're really encouraged about right now?
Speaker 2:So, I'm really excited by the state of New Mexico. That's actually another state where mm-hmm.<affirmative> Oil and Gas rains Supreme. Uh, in fact, their entire education system is funded by the oil and gas industry. So it really creates a ch challenges, um, both for, of course, the communities and the environment, um, but also, you know, for trying to advance this kind of critical environmental protection. The thing is, is I, I got, um, a phone call from a single individual in the state of New Mexico who had heard me on a podcast like this. They actually heard me on a radio show mm-hmm.<affirmative>. And, um, they called me up and we immediately got to work together. And at this point, uh, in the state of New Mexico, we've had over 50 organizations come out in support of the New Mexico Green Amendment. We've got legislators really coming out in support of it. And, um, we're going to have a, another proposal this year. This'll be the third time it's been proposed mm-hmm.<affirmative>, but the outpouring of enthusiasm and passionate support for the Green Amendment, it, it really is truly inspiring. Um, people see its power for environmental protection, but also for really lifting up environmental justice. And some of the best language we have in Green Amendment proposals nationwide is you can actually find in the New Mexico Green Amendment. So I really use it as a model in many ways for other states.
Speaker 1:I just think it's so cool that, that Pennsylvania is the model that other states are looking to for this. Um, I mean, that's, that's awesome and thanks for doing that. Um, but it leads me to ask, so what do we, I mean, there's obviously things aren't perfect in Pennsylvania, so what do we need to be doing here?
Speaker 2:So what we need to be doing in Pennsylvania is really embracing Pennsylvania's Green Amendment, which is why your show being on your show is, is so powerful and important so that people understand that they actually have this constitutional right to pure water, clean air, and a healthy environment, and that they start to utilize it, and they can utilize it in multiple different ways whenever their local town council is making a decision, or there's a government, uh, a state or local government official in Pennsylvania that they're talking to or speaking to at a hearing. Um, that's, you know, taking or proposing an action or an activity that will affect the environment. Mm-hmm.<affirmative> people need to first words out of their mouth. They should be quoting, just like you did,<laugh> their constitutional right to a clean and healthy environment. They should say, I have this right. And they should quote Article one, section 27, and then use it in their advocacy. And if they get in, in a decision, um, if they find themselves in a situation where really government has overreached and allowed something so egregious to happen that they believe that their environmental rights will be infringed upon mm-hmm.<affirmative>, then they need to talk with an organization like mine, uh, or an organiz, you know, organizations across the state, um, Penn Future Penn environment. Sure. Uh, Delaware Riverkeeper Network, Widener, uh, law school. And, um, really talk to them, talk to all of us about what can we do legally to challenge it. But at the same time that people are vibrantly utilizing their Green Amendment in their advocacy and in their meetings with lawmakers. We also do need to remember the, what you said is it's, it's not a silver bullet. Mm-hmm. And it will not work in every instance. It doesn't prevent all environmental pollution, all environmental degradation. It prevents the pollution and degradation that will reach that constitutional level. And that's gonna be, that line's gonna be different in every context. So we need to make sure we use the amendment responsibly when we go into the courtroom so we don't risk overreaching like they did in those early years. Mm-hmm.<affirmative> and undermine the amendment because the judges or the justices get so fearful that people really are misusing it for, to just try to stop anything and everything. Right. We really wanna Yeah,
Speaker 1:That makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 2:Address environmental rights.
Speaker 1:So, Maya, I've got one last question for you, and that is with your second edition. One of the forwards was written by the actor Mark Ruffo. How did you get the Hulk to endorse your book,
Speaker 2:<laugh>? So, mark Ruffo, of course, is a great environmental activist, and he, um, actually has a home in the Delaware River Watershed mm-hmm.<affirmative>, and has been very active in our work to protect the river from fracking. And so when I, um, started to, you know, conceive of, of writing the first book, I, a mutual friend who knows him quite well reached out and asked him, and he said, yes,<laugh>. It's as simple as that.
Speaker 1:Nice. Well, that's awesome. Well, congratulations on the book and thank you for your work. Uh, this is a, a really important, I think, historical time in, in, in Pennsylvania's, uh, movement towards protecting our environment. And, um, a lot of that is discussed in this book, both where we've come from and how we're moving forward. Maya, thank you so much for being on Environmental Voices today.
Speaker 2:Thank you for having me and helping to spread the word.
Speaker 1:And now we would like to introduce you to Patrick McDonald, the new c e o and President of Penn future based in Harrisburg. Patrick brings over 20 years of experience on climates clean energy and environmental issues to Penn future. Prior to joining the nonprofit, he spent six years as Secretary of the Pennsylvania Department of Environmental Protection leading key initiatives like Passage of the State's First Carbon Trading Regulation Acceleration of the Commonwealth's cleanup of waterways, and a new focus on environmental justice issues. He also served as president of the Environmental Council of the States, the voice of state environmental agencies nationally. Patrick, welcome to Environmental Voices.
Speaker 3:Thank you.
Speaker 1:It is great to have you on. I've been looking forward to this conversation. I know our listeners are as well to get to know you better as the new c e o and President of Penn Future. And by the way, congratulations on that.
Speaker 3:Thank you. Thank you. Humbled, honored. It's, it's, uh, organization I've had great respect for, for a long time, so I'm absolutely thrilled to be part of the team here.
Speaker 1:That is excellent to hear. So I wanna start by asking you kind of a chicken or the egg question that I've been curious about with you. And that is, you've had so many years, I mean, basically your entire professional life experience in government and specifically environmental work. Was it the environmental work or the public policy government work that you first started in and did one lead to the other? Or, or is there a chicken and an egg here?
Speaker 3:Uh, they probably both hit around the same time. Uh, I was always very interested in, in public policy in school, and it, it was really when, uh, I was in graduate school. I took an environmental policy class, you know, you always had bits and pieces of the environment as, as part of curriculum, but when I took a, a dedicated course on it really, really fell in love with the subject matter. So when I came to the state as an intern, uh, I was very focused on trying to get, uh, an environmental internship and ended up, uh, working at the Department of Environmental Protection twice and just absolutely fell in love with the work, fell in love with, uh, the passion of, of the employees and, and how dedicated they were to the mission. Uh, hard, hard not to get, uh, hooked on that.
Speaker 1:So you started as an intern with D e P and then rose up to secretary. That's like starting in the mail room and leading the company after a few years,<laugh>,
Speaker 3:Something like that. It, yeah, I was a management intern and then, uh, worked in the, uh, energy office and then went on from there, uh, uh, ultimately to, to run the agency and, and, uh, just very honored to have that opportunity. Cause it is, it is, uh, incredibly rare.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So what, I mean, looking back on, on your career in government that, you know, you retired from, uh, the d e p, uh, over the summer. Uh, and of course you were there for six years, but even before that, you know, as you look back on your time in government, what, what are you the most proud of that you were able to be a part of or accomplish
Speaker 3:There? I mean, there, there's a, a lot of things that happened throughout, um, a lot of great lessons you learn kind of along the way. And that's a lot of what I'm always interested in is where we can learn. I'd say, you know, particularly when I was secretary, the response that we had to the, uh, COVID 19 pandemic mm-hmm.<affirmative>, you know, you, you come in one Monday morning and are just told, uh, grab enough work for two weeks and we'll, we'll see if we're back in two weeks. And obviously we, we were not, uh, the way, the way the staff just rose to the challenge of that. Um, we would meet, uh, every day just to go through, okay, what do we need to think about from an HR perspective, a budget perspective, a how do we help people work from home? How do we manage permits and inspections and grants and all of these other things? Uh, when suddenly you're, you're thrown into, uh, your dining room or, or a home office, um, and just the, the, the collaboration, the creativity of the staff in working through that and the way they addressed it and rose to it. Um, I, it it was a fantastic team to lead and, and, uh, uh, couldn't be prouder than, than the way that all went.
Speaker 1:I, I wanna ask you something about the dp, cuz I think a lot of people get kind of confused as far as exactly what the Department of Environmental Protections role is in that. Um, the organization is, is not the organization that makes the laws. Their role is, and your role when you were there is to enforce it, right? It's, it's regulatory. Is that correct? So what does that really mean? Cause I think some people get confused by that. Like, why isn't the d e P doing more to protect our environment?
Speaker 3:Sure. I mean, we, we are, uh, when we're in government, we're limited by, uh, the authorities we're getting from our legislature or from the federal government or from what a federal grant tells us we need to be doing. Um, so on our end, uh, even when, for example, we're writing a regulation, which is something I I did quite a bit of, uh, throughout my career, uh, as we're writing those regulations, it all has to go back to that authority. It all has to go back to something the legislature is telling us we need to do, uh, or, or have the ability to do or something the federal government is telling us we have the ability to do. So there are limits mm-hmm.<affirmative> on, uh, how much we can do, uh, depending on the topic.
Speaker 1:And then also limits, of course, to what you can advocate for within that position.
Speaker 3:Correct. I mean, you, you, um, uh, we are, uh, executive branch in the<laugh> mm-hmm.<affirmative>, uh, uh, strictest sense of it, right. So mm-hmm.<affirmative>, um, we are executing the laws of the Commonwealth when, when we're in state service now that, um, out of state service, I have the ability to advocate for, uh, a lot of the changes and, and really bring the experience I had in state government, kind of understanding of how those processes work, kind of what the conversations are that are mm-hmm.<affirmative> going on in, in rooms, uh, around how we approach a legislative challenge or a regulatory challenge, uh, to the advocacy work to, to try to get better outcomes.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I mean, it, it seems like, like such a benefit to Penn future because so much of our work is advocacy work and you literally know how the sausage is made.
Speaker 3:<laugh>. Yeah. And, and, and I think, you know, frankly, Penn Future is, is an organization that really excels at, um, uh, going into those spaces and working with legislators, working with municipalities, working with others, um, uh, to, to get the next, uh, big environmental victory. You know, I've seen, seen that firsthand just in the month and a half I've been here. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. So, again, thrilled to, to be able to bring, uh, the government experience, the technical experience, uh, that I've had and learn a lot from, uh, what what is an amazing, uh, staff here at at Penn future.
Speaker 1:Let's talk about a little bit about how you decided to apply for this job. Cuz when you retired over the summer from D E P I, you know, I think a lot of people understood that when you've got, uh, a new governor coming in and that point, no one knew who was gonna be, of course. But there's always changes in leadership and, uh, as to be expected. Uh, and you had been in, in government your entire career and were retiring. Um, and certainly I know, you know, you've got some kids who are still in high school and you wanted to spend more time with them and, and, you know, some people say, oh, well, I wanna spend more time with my family, but you really did. And, and then all of a sudden you were out of retirement.<laugh>. How'd that happen?
Speaker 3:Yes. So, you know, you're, you're absolutely right. One, you know, I, I was, I was, uh, ready for, for the change and I had uniquely, again, cuz of Covid 19. Um, uh, one of my children, uh, was was going into junior year, but had done freshman and sophomore year from home, uh, largely and, and, uh, had a senior in high school who was going off to be a freshman. So of the four kids, two of them were heading off in the fall,<laugh>, uh, and I wanted to spend time with them. And it really was, I had had the date on the calendar, uh, in August when, uh, the last of the four kids would head off to school. And, and I would, uh, start looking then. But then, uh, the CEO job here, uh, came available and, uh, you know, frankly, the, the, uh, 10 future CEO job is not a job that comes along every day. So, uh, through, through my hat into the ring and, and, uh, was incredibly gratified when, uh, the board, uh, chose me and chose to bring me on board.
Speaker 1:So you had thought about continuing to work and not going into full retirement, if I'm hearing you
Speaker 3:Right. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm still, I'm still a relatively young guy. Yeah. Uh, just wanted that, you know, I, I could have waited it out till the end of the administration, but it was really that last chance, uh, home with the kids and, and all of that when, when I knew we'd have them all here mm-hmm.<affirmative>, um, uh, and, you know, and frankly, I was ready for the break too,<laugh>. Sure, sure. So it, it was good to get a little little time off, uh, in between, but, uh, fantastic to get, uh, back into the work here.
Speaker 1:So now it's only been about, I believe you're going into your seventh week right now as we're talking. Um, so it hasn't been a, a lot of time in a new position, but I am really curious, I mean, what do you see as how working in a nonprofit is different from working in government?
Speaker 3:Well, it has been seven weeks. I have it all figured out.<laugh>. Um, now the, the, the reality is, um, uh, there, there's a lot that's very different. I mean, Juan, I'm coming from a very large organization to a team of about 20, uh, and when someone asked me about that, I was like, you mean I get to know everybody? I, I work with<laugh>? Uh, it's, it's a great situation. Um, there's, there's a, a big difference here in, uh, just the, the everybody here is leaning in, uh, on every issue mm-hmm.<affirmative>. And there's, uh, you have less of the defined silos behind things that, that frankly, when, when you're managing over 2000 people, silos are, are something you need here. Sure. Everybody's jumping into every issue. Um, everybody's bringing their expertise, their perspective, their background, uh, to the work. And collaboration is just one of those things that, uh, I thrive on mm-hmm.<affirmative>. So seeing, seeing the team, you know, really, uh, uh, developing that, that collaborative spirit around every issue we're, we're dealing with, be it clean energy or, or water, uh, or, or, um, you know, the recent, uh, delisting<laugh> or, um, uh, water quality standards decision down in the Delaware, um, you know, everybody feels that as a victory throughout the organization cuz it truly is everybody's victory, the organization, the membership, uh, the board, et cetera.
Speaker 1:You, you said, I mean, obviously you, you knew a lot about Penn future prior to, uh, taking this role as president. C e o, uh, worked with Penn Future a lot in your role at the d e p, but in, in the, uh, seven weeks that you've been here, any big surprises?
Speaker 3:I don't know that I'd say, you know, big surprises. There's, there's clearly pieces I have to learn, you know, just, uh, just even the rules around nonprofits very different than, than the government, uh, world. Um, you know, uh, having a membership organization, you know, we had certainly had constituents and things we, we would work with when I was in the government side of things. Uh, but working with those members and making sure we understand what, what their issues, uh, concerns are, how we can help mo mobilize, uh, those concerns, whether it's in Harrisburg or, or in a local government kind of setting. Uh, uh, you know, I I, I don't know that I'd, I'd, uh, say that's a huge surprise, but it's mm-hmm.<affirmative>, it, it, it just being able to, uh, support that, um, just having that kind of, uh, stiff wind at your back as you're going into each of these battles is, is incredibly helpful.
Speaker 1:So one thing that I think all the staff really appreciated when you started was that you didn't come in with a set agenda of what you wanted to see Penn future accomplished. You came in listening and asking questions. But I have to imagine, Patrick, there are some things that you'd like to steer us towards. As you start thinking about, you know, what the next year is gonna be like, we're gonna be going through, uh, uh, a planning process for a new strategic plan and looking at new priorities. What are things that you, you, uh, are are looking forward to seeing Penn future work on?
Speaker 3:Oh, a absolutely, and, and, uh, you know, one of the, the reasons why I, I, I think Penn future is unique, uh, besides it being, you know, really the only state ad environmental advocacy organization is it does have this focus on climate and clean energy, which is really what my entire career has, has revolved around in one way or another. So, continuing the work on that, uh, obviously came out of the state having, uh, worked on carbon trading rule, uh, worked with PIN future way back in the day on, on the original alternative energy portfolio standard that's due for an update. Uh, so, so those kinds of issues. But the other thing that really excited me that the board was interested in mm-hmm.<affirmative>, and it was really the, the thing that caught my attention, uh, was more of a focus on environmental justice issues. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. So I am, uh, it's, it's something I was very passionate about as Secretary of the ep. Uh, something that has to be a focus, uh, it almost gets overlaid on strategy as, as a filter, right? That everything we do should, uh, we should be cognizant of the impact, positive or negative we're having on, uh, communities that have born the brunt of, of, uh, environmental degradation. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. Uh, so, you know, I'm, I, that's definitely something I wanna make sure is a focus as we go into planning.
Speaker 1:So let me ask you a little bit broader question, uh, beyond just Penn future, but you know, you're in a very unique position to really understand the environmental challenges that face Pennsylvania, uh, from your previous work and your current work. Um, what are those biggest challenges right now that, that are facing Pennsylvania?
Speaker 3:Well, the, the exciting thing for me is we, we are at a point where what used to be a, a technology or an economic challenge in terms of, of climate, uh, no longer is that it, it really is now a political conversation. It is, uh, you know, jobs that, you know, frankly, we in the Commonwealth have, have relied on for decades, uh, are increasingly going away mm-hmm.<affirmative>, and what is, what is coming in are cleaner energy jobs. So the, the goal now is how do we have the conversation about accelerating that? How do we have a conversation about ensuring everyone has the opportunity to participate in that, whether it's directly having a job in the industry or receiving a health benefit from it, uh, or receiving the economic benefit of, of cheaper electricity and, and, uh, uh, cheaper fuels. So that's the place we now are, is things that were prohibitively expensive. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, when I started in my career, today, are the cheapest sources of electricity on the grid. Um, so we're, we're at this unique kind of pivot point where the opportunity to really accelerate, uh, reduction of carbon emissions is front and center and right there for the taking. And, and all we have to do is want to do it
Speaker 1:Well. It is front and center for a lot of us, but at the same time, there's still a lot of pushback in this state, in our commonwealth, uh, whether it's, uh, in support of fracking or, uh, other energies that are not so clean. And, um, you know, Penn Future has a lot of critics, you know, whether they think we're environmental wackos or frack Anas or what have you. Uh,<laugh> you know, what, what do you, what do you say to them?
Speaker 3:I think, you know, there, there's a couple things. One, um, it, it is definitely, you know, we, we are talking about change. Um, someone who, who had a job yesterday does not have that job today or is hearing discussion about a plant closing mm-hmm.<affirmative>. And that can be, that can be a frightening thing. And, and the impact on communities of plants closing is something I certainly saw, uh, during my career. The reality though is we, we also know that there are other opportunities and other tools out there. Um, you know, I used to say in my old job, I don't, I don't want to just put up solar panels. I want to build them, right. I wanna mm-hmm.<affirmative>, make sure we're, we're building the components here and that we are, um, uh, not losing out on these opportunities to other states. I don't want to be bringing solar panels and, and batteries in from Maryland or Ohio or New York. Those are things that should be manufactured here cuz that's, you know, uh, a former secretary Jim se used to say in Pennsylvania, you know, what we do is build stuff mm-hmm.<affirmative>, and I still believe that, right?<laugh>, like, what, what we do is build stuff. We have a fantastic manufacturing base, we have a fantastic grid. Um, it really is just a matter of decarbonizing that and making sure, uh, people have the, the opportunity and the skill to realize those opportunities, the training to realize those opportunities across, across the commonwealth.
Speaker 1:Well, I know that you have solar panels on your own home, which is awesome. How's that working out for you? I do
Speaker 3:Really well, really well. Uh, in fact, we just, just put the, uh, uh, heat pump system in. Uh, oh, cool. So now, you know, we have, uh, electric heat, we have, uh, uh, central air conditioning for the first time, which we are, uh, absolutely thrilled to do. And, and again, going to, to some of the stuff I said earlier, I also recognize that, that there's just in, in what I was able to do, there's a privilege to it, right? Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, uh, I live in a place where I can get solar panels on my home. Uh, uh, I have the ability to, uh, afford a heat pump system. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, those are things that, that not everybody has the ability to do. Uh, so one, I think it's important that when, when you have the, the, the ability you're taking advantage, but that two, you're keeping your eye on the policy end of this, that others, you know, everybody should have the opportunity, uh, uh, to be able to install these systems. Um, you know, the, the costs for, for solar ha have come down. Some of that's education, uh, uh, for people, but getting heat pumps in, in homes and things like that, that's gonna take, you know, some, some incentives on, on the government side. And those are the kinds of things that, that from a policy standpoint, you know, we, we need to be about.
Speaker 1:Let me ask you about something very specific here. And that's community solar, which is something that we don't have in Pennsylvania other states do, which basically allows, uh, people who are not able to put solar panels on their own home, uh, whether it because the home's design or trees or, uh, because of, uh, it's a town home or multiple dwellings or what have you, um, that they're able to get their power from a community solar installation. And that's something that, that you can't do in Pennsylvania. And, you know, we've been fighting about this for a long time. Do you think there's any, any chance that that may change?
Speaker 3:I do. I do. I think, um, there's the, the, the fundamental challenge is we have this law that says in order to, to get like the, the good payment, it's one account, uh, for each solar array. So you can't put solar arrays just out there somewhere and then have more than one account attached to it. Uh, which means multi-family homes, and, you know, where I grew up in, in Philadelphia mm-hmm.<affirmative>, uh, in a row home would make no sense, uh,<laugh> to, to, you know, you could put a couple panels maybe on the roof, but that would be it. So allowing people to, to participate in the opportunity around renewables, uh, means you need something like, uh, uh, community solar, and it's a way for, for, uh, people to control the price they pay. Um, it, it's a way for them to participate in a green economy. Uh, and, and I do think it's, it's an issue that, uh, people are seeing what's going on in other states and want that opportunity. So I, I'm confident we'll be able to get that over a finish line.
Speaker 1:That would be excellent. I certainly, I certainly hope so. I think it's a, a pretty important thing for us to be working on. Patrick, before we wrap this up, and again, thank you for your time. Uh, I do wanna ask you about, uh, a hobby of yours. You're an improv performer.
Speaker 3:I am. I am a, I am a, uh, comedy improviser.
Speaker 1:Tell me a bit more about this. How fun
Speaker 3:Sh Sure. No, I've been doing it since, uh, 2016, uh, took a little time off during the, the, uh, uh, pandemic mm-hmm.<affirmative> when, uh, being in, in a little theater, uh, yelling from a stage didn't seem like the best idea for anybody, right.<laugh>. But it, it's just this great, uh, great activity. It's very, uh, I would say the, the reason when whenever I say it, people are like, oh, I couldn't do that. They're imagining having to come up with stuff by themselves on the stage and the pressure of that. And, and the reality is the opposite, which is you're up there with the team, uh, you're up there with other people and you're creating together and somebody has an idea and you know, somebody else will step out having heard that idea and add to it, you know? Yes. And mm-hmm.<affirmative>, if anybody knows this thing about improv, they, they know. Yes. And, uh, yes, I acknowledge the thing you say and, and I'm adding to it. Um, so it, it's just this fantastic, uh, process that, that's a mental break for me on the one hand. But also, uh, I always say, like, to say, when I go into meetings, uh, I bring that ethos with me, uh, that I want to hear what the other people in the room are saying. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. And even if we're diametrically opposed, sometimes you can make an outcome 1% better, 5% better, having recognized what somebody else is up against, uh, in the discussion. So, uh, absolutely love the, the improv game. Just, uh, just, um, uh, performed, uh, this past weekend and looking forward to being back on a stage again soon.
Speaker 1:Very cool. Now, I, I know you're a big movie fan, but I mean, had you done any theater in high school or college, or how did you, you know, make that decision to choose to sign up to, you know, take a class in improv?
Speaker 3:So, I, I did, I did the musicals in, in, uh, high school. Uh, but, but hadn't really done anything since. And, and actually it was my wife, uh, Christmas 2015 bought me, uh, a level one class
Speaker 1:Oh, wow. And,
Speaker 3:Uh, absolutely spoke to me. Uh, so I did level two, I did level three. I've done musical improv now, um, uh, lots and lots of fun, uh, to do, uh, big Saturday Night Live fan, so mm-hmm.<affirmative>, that's always been, uh, floating around, you know, never miss an episode of that.
Speaker 1:Excellent. Well, Patrick, that's, that's very cool. I, um, I know we all look forward to seeing you on stage and more importantly, what the future does, uh, in the coming years under your leadership as well. Thank you again, so much for your time today on Environmental Voices.
Speaker 3:My pleasure. Exciting time with, with, uh, new administration coming in, new legislature, and time to get at it.
Speaker 1:And that does it for this episode of Environmental Voices, the Penn Future Podcast. Thanks to Maya and Patrick for today's important conversations. You can learn more about each of our guests in the show notes as we wrap up the first year of this podcast. We hope that you've enjoyed our conversations, learned a few things, and maybe even have been motivated to do more to fight for our environmental rights in Pennsylvania. If you enjoyed this episode, make sure you subscribe and leave behind a review of Environmental Voices, the Penn Future Podcast, wherever you get your podcast. And as always, please let us know what you'd like to hear on future episodes. Environmental Voices is sponsored by Penn Future Pennsylvania's watchdog for clean air, clean water, and clean energy. You can find out more and become a member@pennfuture.org. And if you're interested in becoming a sponsor, please let us know. Today's show was written and produced by Travis d Cola and Michael Miza. The executive producer is Matt Steph. Our music is thanks to api bay.com. I'm your host and audio engineer, Travis Dina. Thank you for listening to Environmental Voices, the Penn Future Podcast.