Today, we're talking to a social media icon and one of my favourite people on the Internet, Mallory Rowan!
Mallory’s bio is impressive – she founded her first business at 22 and in 7 years, has been a three-time founder to successful companies, she hit $1M networth at 29 and has been featured and partnered with a TON of your favourite brands. In the time I’ve been following her, reading her newsletter, and taking her workshops – she’s taught me not only about social media and marketing but also about building habits that keep me healthy, cycle synching, money moves, ways to find peace, and so much more.
After experiencing burnout, she shifted her business and life to make it work for her and is a constant inspiration to me along with 116K other people on IG (not to mention her TT, YT and email audiences) to help take back control of our businesses and build the lives we want.
In the episode, we discuss:
Connect with Mallory
On her website at www.malloryrowan.com
Sign up for her newsletter at www.malloryrowan.com/email
Follow on Instagram and TikTok @malloryrowan
Hosted by @kirstimcnabney
Find links, inspiration and updates on @thinkingaboutpodcast
This episode was edited by Amanda Wan of Wan Media
Today, we're talking to a social media icon and one of my favourite people on the Internet, Mallory Rowan!
Mallory’s bio is impressive – she founded her first business at 22 and in 7 years, has been a three-time founder to successful companies, she hit $1M networth at 29 and has been featured and partnered with a TON of your favourite brands. In the time I’ve been following her, reading her newsletter, and taking her workshops – she’s taught me not only about social media and marketing but also about building habits that keep me healthy, cycle synching, money moves, ways to find peace, and so much more.
After experiencing burnout, she shifted her business and life to make it work for her and is a constant inspiration to me along with 116K other people on IG (not to mention her TT, YT and email audiences) to help take back control of our businesses and build the lives we want.
In the episode, we discuss:
Connect with Mallory
On her website at www.malloryrowan.com
Sign up for her newsletter at www.malloryrowan.com/email
Follow on Instagram and TikTok @malloryrowan
Hosted by @kirstimcnabney
Find links, inspiration and updates on @thinkingaboutpodcast
This episode was edited by Amanda Wan of Wan Media
Welcome to the Thinking About Podcast, your digital equivalent to late night chats with good friends that keep you thinking I'm Kirsty. And together we'll join interesting people for deep meaningful conversations that will help elevate our lives, leave us with actionable outcomes and keep us thinking for days to come. Hello and welcome back to the Thinking about Podcasts. We are finally here dropping new episodes. I'm so excited if you have been here before, thank you for coming back if you listen and tune in. Oh my gosh. I went to a business event on Sunday that my friend Terry held. Terry was on episode two of thinking about podcasts and she was a huge part of why this podcast exists. And on Sunday I was at my second brunch event for business owners second year in a row and I ran into Christina , who I'm sitting beside flowers that she had as part of the event because she is an incredible florist. And she came up to me and told me that she listens all the time. So Christina , this one is for you. I think that it's just, I've been thinking a lot about how important it is to tell people things. I feel like we talk about this all the time, but like there are days where it's really hard to do all of the things right now for full transparency it's 9:58 PM and I'm a grandma who is usually in bed at this time or at least getting ready for it. And I am very motivated to get this up so that you can hear. So to Christina and to everyone else, this has been on my mind a lot because the Spotify wrapped came out and I've just been doing a lot of thinking about the next year, obviously because of the time of year that we're in. And I just feel really grateful that people show up and listen to this and and take things away from it. And I'm so glad that you're all here. So thank you for listening and for being a part of the podcast community and for sticking around to hear this because I wanna be able to have these amazing conversations with these super cool people if it wasn't for you. So thanks for listening. Just a little cheesy moment to get us started. I'm sorry that I left you hanging for the last couple of weeks. It is really , uh, November came and went in the blink of an eye. There was so many good things looking back, but at the time it felt very overwhelming and that led to uh, not being able to carry all of the balls in the air anymore. So I had to put some down and the podcast unfortunately was one of the ones that I wanted to give more love to than I had. So we took a little bit of a break just a couple weeks at a time. No biggie we're allowed to do that here and there. So if you're feeling like you need to do that from anything in your life, consider this my permission to you to do that because we all deserve that anyways. We are back in action with one of my favorite people, one of my favorite people I've ever met on the internet. You will hear a full introduction very shortly, but I just need to tell you that it is not often in life where you come across someone who can talk about what you do for a living and it blows your mind. And Mallory Rowan has the capacity to do this not just once, but every single time I have ever interacted with her social media workshops since she's run workshops that she's been a part of in conferences , um, on podcasts, she was on Terry's podcast over a year ago and I didn't even have to go back and listen because what she said and I bring it up in the episode so I'm not gonna give it away. But what she said in that episode literally is tattooed on my brain because it was such a good way of articulating social media and showing up for your people in a way that I never heard before. And I actually use it with clients all the time now. So I just think that this is one of those moments where we are joined by somebody that like I hope that you are all as excited about as I am because Mallory is brilliant. She's also so fricking cool and just uses community and social media in a way to form community. Like I don't see that often and it's very exciting to see and I've just watched her transition through so many things at this point online that to be able to chat with her about all of her wisdom and experience and have her here to share that all with you was really cool. So I actually did a very fun thing this time around where we did the intro during the episode, which was super cool. Let me know how you found it because I might switch it up if that's the case. Usually I wait to do it after so I can chat about what's going on in the episode. But I actually kinda loved it and it was a nice way to like showcase why I loved our conversation, why I was so excited about our conversation to the actual guests , which I feel like they don't really get unless they're listening. So anyways, that's my long-winded story of telling you that I'm really freaking excited about this week's episode. I'm so excited to be back. I'm so excited to be looking forward to the year ahead of podcasting and what we are going to do together, if there's anything that you wanna hear, send me a message. I will put a question up in the Spotify uh , interaction because they have that. So if you are listening on Spotify and you feel like interacting there, we can do that. Um, if you wanna drop a review, let me know what you loved, what you didn't love, that could be my Christmas present from you. If you feel like you are so inclined, I would love that. Or send me a message on Instagram. I'm always available at , well not always but <laugh> a lot of time I am online. So send me a message at cy McNaney or at thinking about podcasts, but what you wanna hear, who you wanna hear, anything that you think would be valuable to you next year, I will do my best to make it happen. I'm so pumped for Christmas for the holidays, for all the festive things. It is in my head. It is the time, it is time to close things down and just like be, and I'm really looking forward to that. But before we do that, we get to hear from Mallory, Rowan, if you want to tell her what kept you thinking, you can find everything about Mallory in the show notes. You can find ways to connect with her. You can find all of her amazing workshops that I highly recommend you look into. If you are interested in any sort of marketing, specifically social or building a business without burnout, there are so many different things that she has to offer. So check her out, sign up for her newsletter. It is literally my favorite week of the week and I hope that you have a fabulous week and I'm looking forward to talking to you again next week. Have a great one.
Speaker 2:If I could go on only one social media account for the rest of my life, it would be Mallory Rowans. I started following her in 2020 after being blown away from her ability to teach in such a digestible way in a conference I was watching from my basement apartment, which was
Speaker 1:A tough
Speaker 2:Time. If you've ever listened to this podcast before, she has a way about her that makes you wanna get up and do things. Then I was reintroduced to her and all of her incredible talent when she was on the Save for Seat podcast episode that I've brought up many times on this podcast talking about connecting with your customers online. And I don't think I've ever missed a single post of her since Mallory's bio is impressive. She founded her first business at 22 and in seven years she's been a three-time founder to successful companies. She hit a million dollar net worth at 29 and has been featured and partnered with a ton of your favorite brands in the time that I've been following her, reading her newsletter, which I need you to go sign up for immediately. And taking her workshops, she's not only taught me about social media and marketing, but also building habits that keep me healthy. Cycle, sinking money moves ways to find peace and so much more. After experiencing burnout, she shifted her business and life to make it work for her and is a constant inspiration to me along with 116,000 other people on Instagram, not to mention her following on YouTube, TikTok and email audiences to help take back control of businesses and build the lives that we want. I am ecstatic to introduce you to Mallory today and cannot wait for the light bulb moments I know are coming up. Thank you for being here.
Speaker 3:Oh my gosh, can you just intro me everywhere I go? <laugh>
Speaker 2:So
Speaker 3:Lovely . I'm the part of my ,
Speaker 2:If it makes you feel better, I cried three times on Sunday at the Taylor Swift videos kissing Travis Kelsey . So we're in the same, that's make you
Speaker 3:Feel
Speaker 2:Better. Yeah . <laugh> , thank you for being here. I'm so excited. I am so many things that I wanna ask you, but it is called the thinking about podcast and we start every episode with asking our guests what currently has you thinking and it can be anything from your breakfast this morning to your trip to Portugal let's say, if you want,
Speaker 3:What am I thinking about lately? Well I feel like end of year I'm always kind of thinking about the next year. I feel like this year I'm like the calmest going into the new year because I always have that entrepreneur panic of like everything resets to zero and it's like like a high key depressing thing that we don't talk about. Um, so that normally gives me more of a freakout, but I'm really trying to just think of like long term . I don't know if it's being 30 or it's just like where I, how long I've been self-employed, but I'm trying to shed that like everything must happen now or else it's all gonna get pulled out from under me. So that's kind of what I've been thinking about is like how to have long standing things, give myself more space, you know, not just look at like what do I have to do in the first three months of the new year? It's like no, well what do I wanna accomplish by the end of next year? You know?
Speaker 2:Yes, I've been having a lot of conversations with people about that and like also just that January is like a made up day that you have to decide that everything in your life changes <laugh>, which as like a really strict goal setter in the past I feel like is really gonna like shake people's view of me that know me and have known me for years. But I really do think that that's an important thing and that's a huge growth to be able to be like, I don't need to accomplish everything right this minute. And I actually was thinking right before we came on here that you have this, we're gonna talk about the shifts that you've made in your social this year, but there's this mindset that I'm feeling in your content and maybe just your life of the following of it in a weird pair of social way. But like it feels like you're building a very sustainable life and it and it feels like relieving to know that that's possible.
Speaker 3:Hmm . Oh I love that. Yeah, I think like it , it's honestly just 'cause I burnt out really quick and early that like was the blessing with my first business like doing way too much at the time. But yeah, I was actually talking to one of my friends and I was like, I kind of feel like I'm in a bratt phase where I just like, no I don't wanna do that. I don't wanna do it this way. I know this would work but I don't wanna do that . That feels ,
Speaker 2:I like that .
Speaker 3:Yeah , that's what she said. She was like no, it's just like really knowing what things feel good and I do think it takes some trial and error. Like I always say like when you burn out you learn so much because you just find yourself way quicker to be like not doing that again.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that that's smart and I think that it's easy to get caught in cycles of burnout over and over again. And so to be able to actually take lessons from that and live differently is is very beautiful. And are you finding that your life is still working well by living that way?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think like one thing I've realized in talking with people it's like people you know when you hear about the like okay getting rid of hustle culture, people think it's about like lowering your expectations or like the standard you're willing to accept and like I think people are always pleasantly surprised when they give it a shot where it's like, oh you're not actually necessarily settling for less. It's almost like the second you accept the idea of maybe less. It's like you get back into alignment and then you can still achieve the things that you were like aggressively chasing. But now it's just in a way that feels like so much better.
Speaker 2:I love that. I feel like that's my new goal of next year's to just be you this time next year <laugh>.
Speaker 3:Yay .
Speaker 2:Okay. Speaking of achieving big goals, you grew your following 60 K and 60 days and have continued major growth ever since. A lot of it came from leaning into your personal growth and what's happening in your own life first and foremost, before I dive into like what that actually looked like, can we talk about the fact that Instagram is not dead? Because I am also seeing that and I think that there's just like so much word vomit everywhere about Instagram being dead and blah blah blah and I think it's a bit of a scapegoat. So I wanted to get your thoughts on what you think about people who say
Speaker 3:<laugh> . Yes, I agree a hundred percent . I would liken it to shadow ban. Like there was a phase where everyone quote unquote was shadow ban kind of say it's like food poisoning. Like everyone will say they had food poisoning but it's like one in however many cases or food poisoning, everyone else just like drank too much or gained too much. But we're like, it's food poisoning. Like no, it's a hangover. Um, and I feel like it's the same thing. People be like I'm shadow banned or like whatever and it's like no, just like the thing isn't working right now and that's okay and there's always gonna be like seasons of that. But I think as a platform it's, it's such, I don't, I don't like being negative in general so I find it very whiny when we say that because it's like okay cool, if you think Instagram's dead, get off it and put your energy somewhere else. If it's just a way of complaining, let's say what we actually mean And my favorite option would be just like turning that noise off and saying like, okay, how can I make Instagram work for me? I always say like sure I have an audience and obviously that's going to impact when I launch things how it does. But like I have so many students that hover around the like thousand to 1500 followers and they are getting like steady clients that they absolutely love coming to them . So I think that's a really important thing is like maybe the way that we grow on Instagram has changed. Maybe it does require more work in some ways. I also think Instagram now more than ever , um, when it picks you up it like really picks you up and when it doesn't it just doesn't. Yeah . And I think that's important . Like I definitely have taught people like um, part of what helped my growth but it was also really interesting to observe because we see a lot of these people who go like zero to a hundred K let's say and they start teaching what it is. And it made me realize, and maybe I'm biased 'cause I've had an account for a long time, but like I would rather learn from the people who have stuck through like the ups and downs because once my account started, you know, having some of that growth, it just really kept, it was like any video I posted Instagram like was like this is the best content ever, let's give it to everyone. So it just like became that cycle of growth. And it was really interesting 'cause it made me realize how many people are out there teaching because they were able to do it with like one account over a short period and then they're like oh you just have to post a lot of times a day. And it's like that's not necessarily the advice for everyone, right ? That's just, it looked like it was working because you were already being favored. So I think it's really important to like zero in on like what are the actual marketing strategies that like regardless of any of the numbers, we'll pull in the right type of customers for you because that's always gonna exist. Like you can't tell me people aren't opening their phone at least multiple times a day going on Instagram, right? So for us to say Instagram is dead, it's just like wild. Like it's not clubhouse out here. Like I haven't heard somebody mention Clubhouse <laugh> , I don't even know if clubhouse is still alive, you know what I mean? Like it's not dead.
Speaker 2:I totally agree. I couldn't even tell you what's happening with Clubhouse but I can guarantee you that if you are doing well on Instagram and you find the right people also, I love your point about wanting someone who's been there for a while to teach you how to do it because I just think that there's so much vanity in the like five minutes ago person that's growing because like it's just a vanity metric. A hundred thousand people could be following you and like that doesn't mean anything if they're not actually connected to anything that you're doing. And so I think that having an actual mindset of the people that you're serving is a big thing and I think that that's where the 1500 follower people come in and do well is 'cause they actually know their people. Can you give us a bit of an inside look at why you chose to shift your content and why you think it's driven such good results? And I will preface this by saying you have a really good webinar on it that I continue to go back to and I'll link it in the show notes for people . <laugh>
Speaker 3:Honestly like the legitimate answer was like I was bored of my content and I found I was kind of, I'm on TikTok a lot more , more from like an entertainment perspective and I was finding, I was like a little bit envious of these like Gen Z that were like doing social as a side hustle. They were like so passionate about it and I'm like, oh I kind of miss that energy. And so I started asking myself like, you know, what would I share about online if it had absolutely no tie to a business? Like if I was just starting over and I was really passionate about a message. And so that's kind of what had me land on like all of the behind the scene changes I've made in my life because that has impacted like my business and everything more than anything. Um, so I just kind of gave myself permission to be like, let's just post as if we were starting over, this is the thing that we wanna talk about and not needing to see the link . I think especially with a personal brand, when you have things that you sell, whether it's a service product, anything, obviously you're trying to tie your content back to that. And so for me, because it , I always have this catch of like, I love business and I love marketing but I can't, it can't be the only thing I talk about because like I'm a real life person <laugh> and I just think like there's so much more that's important to life and I think that you know, business isn't for everyone. So for me to be showing up on a platform that's so much part of our everyday life and just talking about business feels really aggressive for me. So I'm like, you know what? I'm gonna just let it not be tied to the business courses that I have. And what was really cool too was seeing like how much there was carryover and there has been kind of that natural crossover which honestly I'm still working on like weaving a bit better because I'm just so passionate about like sharing the message and the content that sometimes I'm like, I could probably be more strategic with this <laugh> . Um, but that was kind of like my moment to just like give myself that freedom of like, just say what you wanna say because I think that's always been the thing that's helped me um, stand out or have people feel the impact online is just being like, this is what I wanna say right now regardless of what's going on anywhere else.
Speaker 2:I love that. Did you ever get nervous when you started to shift to more personal aspects of, of sharing that and showing that side of you? I mean you always kind of have shared that but
Speaker 3:Yeah. Yeah, I definitely always shared like personal. I think that whenever I do a shift in like my content style there is a bit of that like are people gonna respond to this? Um, sometimes you're like, am I the only one that caress about this topic? Like I find it really interesting. Does anyone else like wanna hear it? I was hesitant too . I find whenever you do a shift people will be so quick to be like, oh this is what they talk about now. And like a lot of my stuff earlier this year was like um, lessons from sobriety and I hadn't really talked in in , I think it wasn't until I was eight or 10 months into it did I really like more openly share about that. And same thing, I didn't want people to think like, oh now she's gonna tell everyone they need to stop drinking and this is like the thing she's gonna share about . Um , so there's always like those hesitations . I think for me what was really cool with the style of content because it kind of changed like style of content and subject matter, the style felt the most like me I find like I can be such a social chameleon and like I talk a lot about masking and unmasking and I think like a lot of us, right, we can like perform when needed. And I found like when I put the camera on to do like a trend or even like a voice video, I was always like the the bubbly version of myself, which is still part of me. But when I started doing the voiceover I'm like, oh there's the like congress presence that I bring to friendships. Like the reason that people come to me in real life situations for like these deep insights that's the side of me that's always been harder to bring online. And so having this voiceover content really allowed me to be like, okay, no one can see you right now, just like say what you wanna say. And that was actually like surprisingly freeing for me.
Speaker 2:I love that. I love your voiceover so much. I'm like literally always grabbing my notebook and being like these are the things that are gonna make , make my life better. So please never stop them <laugh>. Um, what do you think that business owners can take away from what you did and kind of shift their strategy in a way that makes them feel good for themselves? I assume the first thing is asking themselves what they wanna post about, but do you have any other tips? Yeah,
Speaker 3:I think like the biggest thing I always say is like you have to be willing to do it on your own terms. And like I always talk about finding the root lesson. So what the same way, you know, you could see voiceover videos working for me and not have the context that you and I just talked about of like here's why that's working really well because it's allowing me to like pull out this voice. Someone could just go make voiceover videos 'cause they see them doing well and then not get the same results. But it's digging into like why does this work for that person? Right? What part of their personality is it maybe leaning into or bringing out? Um, I use like humor as an example too. A lot of people will make funny content and then people think everyone has to make funny, relatable content. But like I might be funny in person but like if I try to do like skits and stuff, I , I'm just gonna be cringing out myself and it's like not for me but for other people it can work really well, right? So it's like if I went and did a skit just because it works for my friend, it's not necessarily gonna land the same way. So I think that's the biggest thing is like always look at the root of why something works for someone. I think it's a fun exercise if you're feeling stuck with what you wanna share. I did this even more recently. It is just start like a bookmark collection on Instagram or TikTok where you can save things to . So I called it like obsessed or something and it was just like any type of content that I came across where I'm like, oh I'm so obsessed with this. And I took off the filter of like, could I make this? Because sometimes it's like really cool editing and I'm like this is not me. But like I love it so much. And what was really nice about that was the more I did it and removed that lens of like, okay but I can't make this it, let me just look at the content and be like what am I loving about this? Like is it that it's creative, is it actually about the like impressive shots or is it about the story it's telling? Like is it because it has such a positive flow to it? Right? So it really allowed me to see like what characteristics I liked about other people's content and then say like, okay well how could I bring that into my own?
Speaker 2:I love that. I think that one of the biggest things that I've learned from your workshops is you're very analytical about things that work well and I always come back to that like you talk a lot about looking at something and figuring out why it matters to you, which I think is such a good tip for people to not be copying and pasting 'cause that really doesn't pay off a lot of the time. But actually taking it and making it something that is beneficial for how it works for you and just like getting creative, I think that it builds the creativity again instead of being bored and posting on social because you have to, which I think is important.
Speaker 3:Yes. Like I would rather you just be offline for a bit than posting just to post. Because I really think when people post just to post, it doesn't do well. Like, and I've even caught myself like I remember when we were just in Arizona recently, I was like wanting to post 'cause I wanted to post on the Saturday morning and then I literally had a reel like ready . I was writing the caption, I just looked at Josh and I'm like, it's just not gonna do well because it's just like a random reel that like, you know, I was just like, I don't feel crazy fired up about it. It's nice in theory and that's sometimes where the other voices seep it . I'm like, I see other people post stuff like this, so you're like, I'll try it. But I'm like, I just already know these things fall flat for me. So I'm like, I just put the phone away and I'm like, all right , I'll just post next week. Right. So I think whenever we're posting just to post, you just feel that in the energy
Speaker 2:That's good permission to give people because I feel like there's just , there's just so much online being like you have to post 800 times a day and then you'll make a million dollars in five minutes. And I'm like, that's not realistic for anyone. And like the only thing that's gonna lead you to is burnout. Yes . So we all just need to be more realistic about it and and like focus on making good content. I remember, I think it was that 60 and 60 k or maybe a reels workshop that you did. One of your main points was like, don't post things if you're bored by them or like if you're bored everyone else is bored. And I was like, yes, <laugh> so true . Let's not bore people. We have enough time on our phones, let's get them excited to do things.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Like if you're putting out a post and you're just like, eh , like you're the one that's supposed to care the most about your business, why would anyone else be more excited than that? You know? Right.
Speaker 2:It's so true. Is there anything that you're focusing on heading into the new year that you are excited about with your own content?
Speaker 3:Yes. So I actually just hired one of my friends as a coach. I love friends where it's like you just go like back and forth . Like I coached her from a different perspective, like maybe, oh let see , a few years ago now. And um , I'm really excited to be working with her. Um, but for me it's pulling out even more of like I call like my offline side because I, there's a lot of things that I talk about that when I go to make content feels a little more lost in translation. I feel like I do the like inspiring side really well, but when I try to be like, you know, talking about these bigger picture things that I've spent a lot of time thinking on, sometimes I'm like, oh this just kind of sounds like negative or sad even though I don't mean it that way. And finding that combination of how can I show up more in like talking videos again in a way that doesn't feel like I'm being on the same way. So that's kind of what I'm working on is like I know there's gonna be a different side of my content coming as well. I think too, like there's so much conversation around AI in marketing and social media and I think to me I see that as a massive opportunity to stand out by like not using it because everyone's starting to make the same generic content more so than they already are. So if you can just be like a real person talking about like real feelings and real like complicated human emotions, that's something that like AI is not generating for people and I think that's really gonna be something that like helps people stand out.
Speaker 2:That's so smart. I love that. Especially in the world of AI and the conversations around it. Do you watch upload by any chance?
Speaker 3:Yeah , <laugh> . I do .
Speaker 2:Have you seen the recent season?
Speaker 3:Recent ? Uh , I'm like, well they did different drops, so I'm like,
Speaker 2:Yeah , it's kind of weird. It's not my favorite. Yeah . But they're trying to teach AI like how to be human. Yes . And it is so hilarious and like such a good example of what you just said. Exactly.
Speaker 3:And
Speaker 2:It's so true. Like I, I really think that there's gonna be a shift in the next few years, if not sooner of like close areas where you can connect with people just like less, less out there social all the time. And I think I'm hopeful that people will tie back to like the deep thoughts, the sharing of what's happening in your life. Like the reason that we all kind of got there in the first place. We'll see what happens. Right . But it would be nice to see that I'm gonna at least make sure that my feed looks like that from other people.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think it's true. Like we can't, AI's not gonna spit out like the things that most of us are thinking about right now the same way. Right. And I mean the whole idea of AI is that it's based on things that are already out there. Right? So that's not how I like to live. It's kind of like going through old blogs from other people to like look at what you wanna talk about. I wanna talk about the complex things that like we haven't talked about as a society online, you know? Yeah,
Speaker 2:A hundred percent . I think that that's, that's where your magic comes from, which is nice. Um, so I was sitting and thinking about all of the things that I think that you do best from what I've seen on the world and there is a big list but <laugh> , what I brought down to the top three for us to talk about today are your ability to teach other people your experimental mindset and the way that you repurpose content. So I have three questions related to those things. Um , we've already kind of touched on some of them , but Okay. Teaching others. So I started following you after seeing you at the conference as I said, but there is this very specific moment in my mind when you were on the save receipt podcast where you talked about an Instagram strategy. They asked you like how to talk to your audience or something and your answer was that you should think about having dinner with them and the fact that when you're at the dinner you would not just be like, buy my stuff , buy my stuff <laugh> . You would actually be like chatting with them. And I use that as an example with every single one of my clients. I'm like, okay , so what are we doing at dinner? Because it's just so easy for them to understand. So I need to know how you, I kind of wanna get into that, but I also need to know like, is making things digestible and easy for other people to understand something that's like always been a part of your life or is that something that you've picked up along the way?
Speaker 3:I'm like , gosh, I don't know where it comes from. It's always been something like I'm a big analogy person and I think like I am also just a very intuitive person. So I've always been able to read when like someone's not getting something and then putting myself in their shoes of like what would be a way for them to look at it , um, that helps them see it. So I've always done that kind of in my like offline life. Um, so for me like teaching is something that I've always, I don't know , just been really excited about. I think there's like so much um, I call it accidental gatekeeping where like things are just confusing and then it ends up feeling like gatekeeping. And I think that happens a lot in like business and finance where it just feels super confusing or like my biggest pet peeve is like when people speak like so jargony, like everything can be common language. Like if you're telling me what you do and I like can't understand it, like that's a you problem, not a me problem, you know? So that's always just been like a pet peeve of mine. So maybe that also comes into play that I'm like, if I can't explain it to you like anyone on the street for them to understand, then there's a problem there. Um, so for me it's a lot about like opening those gates and like allowing more people in because there's no reason we can't explain it in ways that sticks. I also find like um, it helps people that are more visual too, right? Like if we're just trying to remember like all these rules of how to show up on Instagram, it's a lot easier to go like, well what would I talk about on a Friday night at dinner? Right? Because now it's no longer like a marketing rule , it's just like oh I can think about that. Right? Like, or somebody maybe they, you know, do baby products. Maybe it's not a Friday night date for them, right? Maybe it's a Saturday afternoon at the park and they can like immediately start picturing that. So I think for me it's just always about like finding a way to um , understand. I think maybe that's how I digest too . I'm like constantly using analogies in my own brain and so I feel like whenever I lend them to others it's really helpful.
Speaker 2:I love that. And as an analogy lover myself. I appreciate it so much <laugh> . I also, I like the addition of the baby in the park situation because my follow up question to that is like, I have this feeling that there are some times , so I prefer socials where there's an expert telling you things but in a way that's very digestible. And I think for business owners sometimes it's hard to recognize that you are an expert in things that you do all of the time. Do you have any advice on how to kind of pick that up in addition to what you're talking about at dinner with your, with your clients? But like when are the moments that they can be like, oh yeah this is maybe something I should be sharing because it makes me an expert in it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think like if we were to use a service-based business as an example, it's like start paying attention to your client conversations, right? There's probably things that you're constantly explaining to every new client you have, right? Like you probably walk them through something and like you don't realize how much of an expert you are in that moment. Um, think of the questions you get often think about like if, if you were out with somebody and they started asking about your work and you kind of like deep dive something like what's the thing that you'd be like so lighting up about when you talk about it? Those are the things that we are experts in. It just because becomes so much our common language that we don't see it that way. So really start paying attention to like client inquiries or client conversations. Same with product based um, businesses. You can also look at like what's the behind the scenes stuff that you're really good at or um, looking at those customer interactions like why does your community get drawn to you? Things like that. So I think it's like there's always an expertise. I think it's when you're trying to like make yourself think you have to be like a bigger expert than you are, that's always dangerous. And also I think a good cheat at this, like even though a lot of people would see me as an expert with what I share, I'm always like, this is what I'm doing. You know? But I'm never really like this is, I mean also because I don't think there's one way for everybody, right? But I'm not like this is the way to do it. I'm like here's my experience. And part of that also just makes me feel a lot better, especially when I wanna open the doors on some things that are newer to me. Like menstrual cycle sinking would be a great example where like I'm not an expert in that. I'm not an expert in like anything human body related . Like I did not go to school for those things. Um, I just have my own experience and my own research. So for me to go like here's how I'm using it feels way more okay to talk about sooner than if I were to say like here's exactly how every woman needs to use menstrual cycle sinking . Because if somebody could come out and come on and be like, girl, you're wrong. And I would be like, yes, I probably am <laugh> , right? But if I'm like, hey, this is what I learned and here's how I'm applying , it makes me a lot more comfortable about presenting as any form of expert. And it's a very like honest expertise, you know? Yeah . You're <inaudible> in your experience.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And it's also like a lot more approachable and less scary sometimes too, which is nice. Yeah . I think that that's, I think it's the best way to do it. And someone also said to me once about podcasts actually that when you're trying to share what your expertise is, think about what you needed two years ago. And I think that that could also be taken into account. Like you don't have to be like, I have 500. It actually goes back to what you said about the growth that that you're supporting someone with growth rather than being someone that just started is like you can help people along the way and they wanna learn from what you're learning and it's very fitting with the authentic content that is doing well right now, which is great.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Yeah. My friend and I always joke we're the kind of people that like we get brought into the room and then we like crack the door open and we're like, come in, come in, <laugh> come in and we're like bringing everyone up because it's like, like you said , it's often just like the people right behind you that just need those answers. You know like when you're starting out the idea of like sole proprietor versus incorporated versus partnership, you're just like, what am I looking at? Yes . And so I you know, went through the hoops and I also believe there's so much privilege in like network too. And I've been able to meet so many incredible professionals. I've been able to have those like candid conversations that maybe would charge other people hourly, right? So for me I'm like okay, this is what I've been told. Boom, boom, boom. Let me get you up to speed so that you can like keep running through this door with me.
Speaker 2:I love that. That's such a nice way to do it because I just feel like with the success you had , you could easily be like bye but you're not <laugh> see in the dust . No , I think that that's good . Figured out . I figured it out. So good luck to you. No , can you imagine <laugh> ?
Speaker 3:Yeah. I was like sorry these are my context . <laugh>
Speaker 2:<laugh> . Um, that actually is very funny. There's a really good example, maybe I'll link it to the show notes, but like your example from your newsletter today about the conference that you went to and what you took away. Such good content that's helpful to other people. I love it. Um ,
Speaker 3:Yeah and I , I understand being in a position where you're like there's no world where I'm buying a plane ticket to go to an event, let alone like buying a virtual ticket. Right? So for me it's like if I'm able to be in those spaces, hell yeah I'm gonna bring those insights for someone to do at home on a Friday night. Like while they've put their toddler to bed, you know? Yeah . 'cause they don't necessarily have the opportunity to go .
Speaker 2:That's amazing. I think everyone needs to pick up that mindset and uh, and we can all just make world a better place. Hundred percent . It
Speaker 3:Comes back to you in like different ways.
Speaker 2:Hundred percent . And I think that that's important and it's also just like I feel like why wouldn't we share the knowledge that we have with other people? I feel very strongly about that and I think that there's so much to community with everything, but especially as an entrepreneur, a newer one. Um, yes . That's like the only way that I make it through.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I think there's something else going on or something else wrong. If the idea that like me telling you what I've learned is somehow gonna hinder me ,
Speaker 2:I've never understood that
Speaker 3:The math is a math.
Speaker 2:You know , the math is not math . That is not girl math . It's
Speaker 3:Like one plus one equals negative one. I dunno about that <laugh> .
Speaker 2:It's so true. Um, okay, experiment mindset is a second of many really good pieces that you have. And I think that one of the things that stands out is you always highlight like I tried this versus this or I put these two pieces of content up and they were the same content but one was a carousel and one was a re or I changed the cover of it or whatever it is. And I think that that is such a good way to refine as you go and learn as you go. And I think it's really good advice for people who don't necessarily have the marketing background to know that like AB testing things is really good. What is your advice for someone to remember to go back and see what worked and then how to use that to move forward?
Speaker 3:Hmm . That's a good question. I think, well I'm big on like intuitive and like gut instinct analytics is what I call it is like yes we could take the time to go back and look at like the exact insights of all my content, but you can also just like if you're on your continent , like you can tell like oh this thing's getting a lot of comments or like, oh this thing's picking up faster than usual. So those are like really natural cues to pay attention to that. Like you maybe don't necessarily have to sit down and say like what was my best piece this month? But just constantly like being more engaged with the content you put out versus like putting it out and then like never touching it again. Like I pay attention. Like okay, this thing's getting like more traction out the gate. I think always looking at like that room for improvement, like you said looking at like okay, what works about this? Or like not jumping to just like there's so many factors in a piece of content too that like it's so easy to be hard on yourself and just be like, everyone hated that and it sucked and it's like , well maybe you posted it like in the evening on a holiday Monday . Like maybe that's all that it was . Right ? Yeah . So I really think of like collecting all those different data points so that you can say like, okay, well maybe I could share about this again just like not at that time or something. So I think like doing it just kind of like intuitively as you go is really important. I think less about like remembering to go back and look at it, but just around like experimenting. I think it's kind of like if most of us recognize that we don't really know what we're doing <laugh> , so technically everything is an experiment <laugh> . So to me it's just like I'm either not moving forward at all or I'm experimenting because none of us actually have like a very clear path unless maybe you weren't like born into this, you know, you don't have a very clear path of like this is the exact formula that's going to work for me because again, even if it works for someone else, it won't free you. So I just think like you just gotta throw things out there because that's the only way you figure out that's what's working. And I think removing like a personal element to it, which is definitely a challenge. But like you don't have to take it personal when things don't work, especially when it's something creative you're putting out. Just like give it a shot or if you believe in that type of content, give it a longer period of time to pick up. There's a guy, I know how to say his last name, but it's like Tim Tano or something on TikTok. Someone can tell me how to say it, but he was posting like daily vlogs for like, he's like 40 plus years old. He's like an exec somewhere and he just started making content on the side. He makes these really fun daily blogs and he is like blown up this year in popularity. But he's been doing them for a while , like it's been quite a few years. But you know, we see that and we're like, oh, everyone's talking about this guy. And you think like he just started doing it and it worked . But like he was doing that for a long time. He was finding his rhythm, you know, maybe there was ways he changed his storytelling that helped it pick up. So I think recognizing like sometimes if you believe in something, like give it a minute to work.
Speaker 2:Yes. I think that there's so much conversation online about like the immediate experience of people and like we forget that everything , like every single piece of it is a step. A podcast, your first podcast is not gonna be your best thing, your first TikTok. You need to learn all of those pieces. You have to learn about the caption, you have to learn about how you like to shoot, how you like to tell the story. And people are so easy to be like, well this didn't work the first time I posted. I didn't hit a million so I'm just gonna give up. Yeah . And I , I don't think that that's a fair opportunity for anything.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And I think like there's this weird world that we're in with like content creators and influencers where like we don't wanna say things are like hard, right? There's like a very triggering sense around like the idea that influencers work hard. And I'm not about to like say that, but like I think especially for business owners, like this is hard. Yeah . Like it's a specific kind of hard but like to put it out and if it just worked on the first time, I think a lot more people would be self-employed or content creators. But like it obviously doesn't work right away. There's a lot of people that quit along the way. So just actually persevering and like continuing to post and giving yourself that grace of time will have like a massive compounding effect later when your business is still sustaining and other people have like thrown in the towel because it , it is hard to continue to show up so publicly , um, when you're trying a new thing. Especially if your community has like I know friends and family can be really awkward for people too when you're like doing a new thing. A lot of people, that's what's holding them back, right? Is thinking about how those people see it. And like, especially as someone who started their business in university, like there's so many people that I know were just like, what the is she doing? And then like years later are like messaging me about like, you know, oh I'm curious about this course that you have. Or like, I just love what you've done. Can we go for coffee? So I do think it's like you just have to remember like to live your life for yourself because those people will come and go and even if they're still judging me today, like is it affecting me? No, I don't even know, you know, you don't
Speaker 2:Have time for that .
Speaker 3:Yeah. In the moment it just feels so big and heavy when you're like, oh what's this person? Like, am I the subjective conversation in a group chat? Like just letting go of all that because like you have a clear vision of what you want from life and it's different from other people. And so the idea that like everyone's supposed to accept it along the way, you just have to let go of
Speaker 2:So true. I feel like there's a lot of moments in my life that I'm like, I don't really wanna have kids and I also am doing work that's like very different than what other people are doing. 'cause I'm trying to figure out how to run a business even though I'm just a little baby and I don't know what's happening <laugh> and, and like it's so easy to feel like a black sheep and then you talk to someone else that, that has been there before or is doing it and you're like, oh this is actually totally fine to live differently than what everyone else is doing. And that's okay.
Speaker 3:Yeah. It's so about like the con like the people you surround yourself with , which is very hard and it has to be very actively done. Like it took me a long to have like women entrepreneurs around me and even like Josh right now is going through a phase of like, it's like I just slowly built up like all these women around me that are so bad acid business. And then Josh is like, wait, I want that now with like people in my life. So he's starting to build it up. But it's like even if you can start with like the content you consume , 'cause the irony of the black sheep comparison, right? The black sheep stands out 'cause all the sheep are white, but if all the sheep around you are black, you're not <laugh> the odd one out anymore, right? Like you just literally have to find the other color of sheep. You just gotta find ,
Speaker 2:You just gotta go to a different country and get , get the black sheep.
Speaker 3:Yeah. It's like a palm tree in like an evergreen forest is gonna look funny, but in California it's vibing. It's having its time of its life . You
Speaker 2:Let's all be palm trees in California together. Exactly. That's actually the best analogy I've ever heard. <laugh> and I, I would've listed other analogies that you've given ahead of that. So thank you for adding to the repertoire today. Do you have any advice on outside of like actual online connections, how to build a network like that? If someone's looking that's worked for you? Yeah,
Speaker 3:I , I think like I would say like peer to peer is your base. Like I think a lot of people like shoot hard and high for like , um, connecting, you know what I mean? Like as an example, like I will get messages from like strangers on the internet that are kind of like, hey, like I think we have a lot in common. Let's talk. And like sometimes maybe there's a vibe there when , where I'm like, oh this person seems really cool. But like I think it's also like so much easier to connect with somebody that's maybe like also starting their business because we wanna look at like the reciprocity because that's what makes a really good network is when you can learn from each other. Yes . So for me right now, it'd be cool if someone comes and they're like, oh, like I'm, you know, an author but I'm just getting in the online space but I've done all this like PR stuff. Like that's really cool. We can learn from each other. Right? Yeah . And I'm not saying there's not room for mentorship, but I think like your baseline is your peers. 'cause those are the people going through the same things. Certain areas, they're gonna be one step ahead. Certain areas they're one step behind. So it feels really nice that you can like lean on each other. Right? Yeah. You can also like collaborate in a lot of ways, which feels nice. So I would say like starting by finding that peer network definitely can be online. I think if it's you're looking for connections in your city too, like literally start by internet stalking people or like meet at events and like that's true . I think. Yeah, like when you're in the same city, it's a lot easier to be like, hey, like we're clearly similar, we should meet up. And I like, so I've had a lot of relationships that way. I know a lot of other people that have like my students who are in the same cities have even met up because they're at the same point. Yeah. It's so nice. That's so nice. Um , it makes me so happy . But yeah, I think start with that peer-to-peer and then also seek out mentorship, whether it's like direct mentorship or indirect, like for example, a lot of my content would be an example of like I can be your mentor with all the free content I have on the internet. Right? So I think that's a really cool thing of, there's so many paid opportunities right now that I'm like, don't forget, there's also a lot of people just like putting stuff out for free and that could be the thing that you constantly consume.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I totally agree. I think that the internet gets a bad rap a lot of the time and sometimes it very much deserves it. But like the connections that I've made, the things that I have learned from podcasts and social and like just like DMing with people, it's like unmatched and totally . We have this amazing world right now that we're allowed , we're like able to connect with so many people in the world. Why wouldn't we take advantage of that? I'm a big fan of sliding into dms <laugh> . Yeah .
Speaker 3:And like I don't want people to think they can't reach out to somebody that's like maybe further ahead of them . I think it's all about like um, understanding your own value too . Like it's not just a value exchange but like you'd be a great example where like I love you in my dms because you're always just like saying something so positive and nice. Like I've, I can think of so many moments in my life where I've just been like, oh this is the sweetest message. And so it's like that's something where like when you asked me to do your podcast I'm like hell yeah. Because like there is more of a mutual relationship there, right? Yeah . Versus if you're just like constantly asking of people, you can see why you might not be getting the response you want. Because for them it could be just another person asking to be mentored. Like I have people in my life where I'm like, I don't know what they get from me <laugh> , but like, because I see them as like up there. But it's like I do know in another way, like I know that there's stuff that I bring to a table that like is intriguing to them or they feel that reciprocal value. But often it can be being that person that's just like super kind and being the person that remembers someone's birthday or like if they have a work celebration. Like um, sometimes even like if I'm launching something, some of my friends that are not in this space when they're just like, how's your launch? Like that means so much to me. Um, so it's not always about how successful you're
Speaker 2:That's so true. There's so much. I think that just like knowing that you can support other people is also a really important part of networking that sometimes people ignore. Like I don't think I've ever gone into any kind of like not something I paid for a situation where I just like expected someone to give me something.
Speaker 3:Yeah. <laugh> .
Speaker 2:That's not nice. <laugh> . Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah .
Speaker 2:So I , yeah, I feel like being like knowing your worth and your value that you're bringing to the table is also a good thing. And to your point about being around people that are at the same phase of you as you I think is really important because it's one thing to hear like that was really hard for someone that had been there in the past, but the same thing we were talking about before is like when someone's in it with you and they're like, yeah, I felt that last week. You're like, oh okay. I'm totally okay. I'm in my palm tree. Forest. Yeah , exactly . Exactly . <laugh> and like I'm gonna be okay because that palm tree , it's like one more palm trees . Yeah. That other palm tree also had a rough leaf last week and so mine will come back. I just need some water . You know what I mean?
Speaker 3:That's a key one . I think equally sharing the , the winds too, that's a big thing too, especially as you grow. But like I think that's one thing where people often when they get into entrepreneurship or even just like certain phases of personal growth where they start to feel this disconnect with their existing friends and again, it's kind of panicky and it's like I find a good way to maintain those relationships is if you do have other people you can share certain wins with because maybe it takes so much explaining of what weird industry you work in for them to like maybe understand even what the win is. Yeah . Um, that it's so helpful to have the people that would just like immediately get it. Right. So true. Um , yeah, especially as you grow because they're , I mean if you're going to succeed in business, you're going to have wins that people with a nine to five like they just don't understand the same way and you need a safe space to be like, hell yeah, I just did this launch and like made 50 K for the first time ever on a launch. Like you need a space to say those things. I think that's like so, so, so important.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I love that. I think that it's really, and it means something different. Like I actually feel like I talked about this on one of the first episodes I ever did of the podcast, but like it means something to celebrate the win with somebody who understands Yes. Like your friends and family very much supportive of you and they will be excited but it will mean so much more to someone who's like doing it or has been there or whatever and they can just support you in a different way. Terry from Safer Seat and I um, send each other wins through voice zone almost every day and it's just like so nice. And also if you're listening to this and you're following me into the door, writing down a win is really good way. If you like used to thrive on validation, writing down your wins every day , even if they're very small has been incredibly helpful for me. It's a little hot tip <laugh>.
Speaker 3:Yes . And you don't realize like how much happens in a year and like how much you forget. We just did that at the goal setting retreat. It was like write down like some wins from this year and then it even like all that stuff that happened earlier this year for me felt so long ago I was like, oh, all these wins . And it'd be like massive things I totally kind of forgot about in the moment but I'm like, oh yeah, I did like a YouTube accelerator program. Like
Speaker 2:Write that
Speaker 3:Down . You know ?
Speaker 2:It's huge. Someone that was on the podcast we were talking about like setting goals for the future and she was like, A year feels so fast but it goes by so slowly when you look back and see what all that you've done. And I thought that that was very insightful and smart. You have done multiple businesses that have done really well but you have had moments where you had to shift and change and I think that every single path that you go on brings you to where you need to be. For example, I thought I was gonna be a doctor and now I make social media content <laugh> . So I wanted to get your opinion on like what it means to go kind of brick by brick to build this life that you now have based on everywhere that you've been. Hmm . So it's a little pep talk for the person listening that like maybe doesn't know what's coming next.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think it's just like , um, when we used to talk to high schools during our first business, they would notoriously ask like, where do you guys see yourselves in five years? I'm like , why is everyone question getting like sweaty? I'm like , I dunno . And it was so crazy to me because like we were two or three years into the business, sometimes even only one year. And like you said, I look back and I'm like, so much has happened in a year or two. Like the idea of five years has like double or triple the time we've been running this business. Right? So I think sometimes you can see like when it comes from high school students, how much that's programmed into us to think about like the five years or the 10 years from now. And I think for me I've always just focused on like a feeling and knowing how I wanna feel because that lets you think about how you wanna feel that one day when you're like retired or whatever. But also how you wanna feel along the way because when it's a feeling you can often like achieve it much sooner than when it's just like a number on paper that you want in the bank. So it's like I get to live through each one of those bricks, each one of those phases with that feeling that I wanna have later . So I'm like actually accomplishing the goal like as I'm doing it, which feels really nice. I think like as someone that gets bored easily, that loves change, that loves going with the flow, even if like often it can make me like a nervous wreck. Um, I think it's just important to like constantly see the proof points. We always like lean to the negative things as like proof points that were bad at something. But just like, look at all of the proof points that you have today and keep building that trust that like you laid the last brick , you're gonna figure out how to lay the next one because it's actually like you already know how to do that thing. It's just maybe like this brick looks a lot different than the last brick. And I think for me, like not having a game plan of like it has to go this way actually lets you see the opportunities. It's almost like if you had blinders on and you're going down a road and there's like literal like pots of gold and sunshine and rainbows, but you like you can't see it 'cause you just have blinders on. Like how disappointing would that be if you get to the end of the road? And they were like, yeah, actually everything was on the side the whole time. Right? Oh true . You're like true . You're like, I should have stopped to like smell the rose in or check out the other options. Right. So I think that's the biggest thing is it , it can still be right to go with the flow and not really know what's coming. Even if it feels like unsettling. I think a really powerful thing I did was being okay with like not really being clear on what I do. Like if somebody had a social thing, it's like what do you do? Like I just , oh my God , I dunno what , how do I explain this? And like my answer varies so much now because depending on the context, who it is , how I'm feeling that day, I'm gonna just say I work in marketing sometimes because I'm like, I kind of do, sometimes I say I make content, sometimes I say something else and it's like I just was able to detach who I am from that. So I think that was a really, really important exercise because if we're too attached to it , it doesn't allow us to figure out what that next book is gonna look like. I
Speaker 2:Love that. That is such good advice. I recently was asked, I was talking to a different agency and she asked me what I wanted to achieve in the next five years and I was like, I'm just out here vibing right now. Yeah . I'm just like, I'm just trying to feel good really is my biggest goal. Like being happy, having enough money to live the life that I like, making people happy with what I'm doing and like feeling fulfilled in that is my goal right now. And I felt so much shame that like I didn't have a, like I wanna sell this immediately or like make a bajillion dollars. I felt a lot of shame about that and the more that I've sat with it, the more I'm like, but isn't it the whole point of this? So that we enjoy our life rather than just working until we die and collecting money on the way.
Speaker 3:So yes , I always question anything that is very like traditional in its basis and I feel like this whole, where do you wanna be in five years? To me that goes straight to like a promotion route of like, that's just corporate talk of like, what's the promotion you want? And if we're not living by that, like I don't understand why it matters so much. Especially like pandemic and everything that's going on right now. Mm-Hmm . Like to think five years out just feels silly. Like Exactly . I don't know . When we get there we'll see
Speaker 2:<laugh> . Yeah . We will find out day by day .
Speaker 3:Yeah. Maybe five years from now we'll be like trying to survive a zombie apocalyp.
Speaker 2:Right . You literallys Never know at this point, one of my friends that has her own agency, not the one I was just talking about, she asked me when we first met what my dream life was. And that is my new favorite way to find out what people wanna do with their life. I'm like that she's like, what is your dream day? And I feel like that is like the most insightful and kind question to just find out more about people and like what actually makes them happy. I think that that's beautiful. Yes .
Speaker 3:And it's not so obsessed with the future. Yeah . You could go on Dream day tomorrow.
Speaker 2:Exactly. Or you can build towards your dream day. There's so many different opportunities that happen there, which I think is so nice. And back to your point about like actually enjoying the path that you're walking on is you can be like, oh, today was a dream day for me because I felt X, Y, Z and then you'll keep going to your next dream day. I think that that's just such a nice way to keep moving forward. Okay. Let's do our every episode questions.
Speaker 3:Okay . I'm actually so
Speaker 2:Excited about this <laugh>, they're like classic cury deep questions in the form of a, of a rapid fire round because like I do care what aug or cat you like best, but like I want to know the , the deep thoughts, you know, that's kind of the vibe. Yeah . So first and foremost, which is my most exciting 'cause I know that you love to read, we love a recommendation. What do you le re reading, listening to or loving that we should check out?
Speaker 3:Oh , I just started listening to a new podcast like yesterday and I'm already obsessed. It's called , um, sounds like a Cult.
Speaker 2:I love that podcast. Good <laugh> .
Speaker 3:I started with um, the Cult of Heterosexuality and it was just like so good. And I'm obsessed. I'm also obsessed lately with , um, also podcasts if books could kill and maintenance phase. I just heard about a book could kill . Yeah . They share a host, like they like I'm gonna explain it so much more complicated. There's two hosts of both of that and one of the guys is one host on both <laugh> . Um, but they're both really, really good and they cover a lot of the topics that I'm really into. But it also has made me like, I've already been like a bit skeptical of a reader for certain things like self-help books, but it really turns on that lens and it's like super, super fascinating that it always makes like Josh will tell me a fun fact and I'm like, well <laugh> . And I always am like, but what about this <laugh> so annoying? But it it really like practices your critical thinking skills.
Speaker 2:What is your favorite thing about yourself? Ooh .
Speaker 3:I think probably the way that I care for other people. Just like knowing what they need and always like putting myself in a position to provide it.
Speaker 2:I love that. That's beautiful. Who is somebody that keeps you thinking?
Speaker 3:It's funny because I know where people be like who do you like, follow or look up to? It's all people that are like offline, like my friend Larry. But that's like not very opens with people's fine <laugh> . But I , I think I really like people who are in like entirely different industries and worlds from me. Like he's doing like seed rounds for a tech startup right now. He's owned restaurants, those kind of things. I love learning from people that are in like totally different worlds.
Speaker 2:I love that. And it does keep you thinking because it's outside of your everyday . Yeah. That's a great answer. Exactly . What is the best advice you've ever received?
Speaker 3:Ooh . Ever. I feel like it's just, it's not that deep, you know, <laugh> like whenever you're just like really in it , just like step back and like it's not that deep. You know, I said that
Speaker 2:To myself today . <laugh> .
Speaker 3:Yeah . It's just like sometimes you gotta look at yourself and be like, girl, come on. Get it together, step away. You know, I think a lot of the times, especially when we're like doing so much personal growth, everything can feel like the heaviest, biggest decision and it's just like, you know, it's funny, when I was younger I had, well I still have asthma, but like when I get sick my cold would get really bad and sometimes in the night I would just be like coughing so much. And you know when you almost get yourself like in that cycle? Yes . And then you just can't stop. And I remember my mom sometimes and it in hindsight I'm like, as a mom I must be so hard to listen to your kid doing that 'cause it's just like breaking your heart. So I can tell part of it came from that , but sometimes you just be like, wow , stop and stop . I'd be like, it's not me. But then you're like, no, okay. Yeah, I kind of needed that. Like, because you just get so caught up in the cough . But I feel like life's the same way. Like sometimes you're just so caught up in it that you're just like, girl, it's not that to you
Speaker 2:Chill out . Yes . Honestly, that trending on TikTok that sound has really helped me with my life. Like 1:00 AM this morning I, I was just spiraling about everything I had to do. I was like, you're not curing cancer, you're gonna be fine. Nothing is that deep <laugh> , nothing is that deep . It didn't really help at 1:00 AM but like by the time I woke up it was fine .
Speaker 3:There you go . I also posted , I repost something the other day that a lot of people liked and it was like one of those things where I'm like , this is so simple, but it just felt big. But it was like something like you literally have like a hundred percent success rate of the worst time of your life today .
Speaker 2:Yes. You know,
Speaker 3:So ,
Speaker 2:Which is actually I saw that and I liked it, but like it's so hard to remember that when you're in a hard time and so to have people remind you that is a really nice thing.
Speaker 3:Mm-Hmm.
Speaker 2:<affirmative> . I always joke that like I'm gonna take the advice that people give on the podcast and just make like a bunch of cross stitched motivational posters from my wall and it just , you're gonna say
Speaker 3:Like , or something
Speaker 4:<laugh> .
Speaker 2:I mean I could, that might be my thing if only we cross it . No , I like to cross . I better
Speaker 4:<laugh> . <laugh> .
Speaker 2:Yeah. Just cross it and like it'll just be a whole wall full of like really insightful things. But I actually do take it honestly. People are , every time people talk to me they're like, oh, like how do I start a podcast? How do I make money? Whatever. And I'm like, no, I just do this so that I can meet cool people and I can learn things that help me in my own life. Which is really the goal.
Speaker 3:I know. I remember somebody else that had a podcast telling me that they're like, I just have a podcast because it's a way to pitch really cool people that I wanna talk to. And I was like, oh my God, do I need a podcast
Speaker 2:Now ? It's honestly so fun. I love that it's a lot of work and I feel like people don't think that it is in the same sense that it is , but um, but it's the best thing I ever did . Exactly right. Yeah . Because I needed another content creation means to , uh, add to my list. But yes , I
Speaker 3:Needed that challenge.
Speaker 2:It's great. And it gives me like this nice high that like anytime I'm doing it, even if I'm tired before, I'm like, yes , life is so good after <laugh> . So it's working and it helped me build my network, which is a great thing. Speaking of which, where can people find you? How can they work with you? How can they connect with you? Tell us all of the things.
Speaker 3:I'm pretty much Mallory, Rowan everywhere. So on Instagram or TikTok, my Instagram dms are always open. My website is mallory rowan.com . My email list to sign up is mallory rowan.com/email . Um, that's one of my favorite places to hang out and yeah, my email inbox is always open to you .
Speaker 2:Thank you for sharing with us all of your brilliance and being here today. It is the best and we have new , new , uh, analogies that we can use forever and I love that for us . Your cross stitch can be palm tree in a field of evergreen with a sheet
Speaker 3:With
Speaker 4:A little <laugh> .
Speaker 2:I love it .
Speaker 3:I don't need quote , just visuals .
Speaker 2:We'll know what it means .
Speaker 4:Yeah .
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of The Thinking About Podcast. I hope it got you thinking and keeps you thinking for days to come. If the episode inspired you, excited you, or gave you something to think about, please feel free to send it to a loved one or a friend. And if you really loved it, you can leave us a rating or review wherever you get your podcast. It helps the show grow, it helps us tell our guests how important they're to you and of course it lets you help me know what keeps you thinking so we can bring on amazing guests. Thanks again for tuning in and we'll see you next week.