The Beginner Photography Podcast

A Crash Course On Photographic Lighting with Damien Lovegrove

• Raymond Hatfield

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#342 Damien Lovegrove, a BBC trained lighting expert and photographer, joins the Beginner Photography Podcast to talk about his experience with camera movements, lighting, and framing. He explains how he got interested in photography and how he captured stunning shots on film. Damien then shares his process for capturing light and shares how he learned about shutter speed and aperture. He also elaborates on the process of focusing, framing and understanding the controlling elements of exposure in order to create the best pictures.

The Big Ideas:

  • Know your exposure elements.
  • Learn photography slowly and carefully.
  • Working with LED interior lighting
  • Take control of light.
  • Control light for effect.
  • Lighting creates symmetry.
  • Get the camera lower.
  • Explore light to create style.
  • Experiment with different light sources.

Timestamps:

  • 00:05:03 Plan and execute shots carefully.
  • 00:07:07 Learn photography slowly and carefully.
  • 00:18:46 Shoot at lower ISO settings.
  • 00:25:19 Take control of light.
  • 00:25:37 Control light for impact.
  • 00:33:07 Lighting is key to success.
  • 00:42:45 Get camera lower for better photos.
  • 00:44:37 Explore light to create style.
  • 00:50:13 Experiment with light sources.

Resources:

Sign up for your free CloudSpot Account today at www.DeliverPhotos.com

Connect with Raymond!


Thanks for listening & keep shooting!

Damien Lovegrove:

Okay. So with soft light, you imagine that you've got someone in camera like me. And I'm lit now with a hard light. So can you see the sides of my face here getting darker? All right. Now, if that lights, instead of it being a small circle of light, if it was a wide light in front of me, then the sides of my face would be equally illuminated, which means that my face would have a visual appearance of looking wider. Soft light makes people's faces look wider.

Raymond Hatfield:

Hey, welcome to episode 342 of the Beginner Photography Podcast brought to you by Cloudspot, the easiest way to deliver and sell your photos online. I'm your host, Raymond Hatfield, and today we are chatting with BBC trained lighting expert and photographer, Damian Lovegrove, about the secrets of photography. of effectively capturing a light. Now, as many of you know, I studied motion film before transitioning into photography. So we were taught the basics of camera movement, lighting, framing, things like that. But the truth is when I graduated with the writers having been on strike actors, having been on strike, I just didn't get as much real world perspective. Practice with light and camera movements as I wish that I would have like Damien here today. I mean, almost 10 years of learning to frame and light people for broadcast TV, and that is a full stack of knowledge that he was able to bring and apply to his photography to produce just jaw dropping results that you have to see to believe. And today he lets us inside of his head to share with us how he sees and uses light. You're going to love it. With that, let's go ahead and get on into today's interview with Damien Lovegrove. Damien, my first question for you is an easy one. When did you know that photography was going to play an important role in your life?

Damien Lovegrove:

I think it was, October 1983.

Raymond Hatfield:

Oh, that's very specific. That's the most specific I've heard from somebody.

Damien Lovegrove:

Yes. it's when, I applied to the BBC as a cameraman, to become a cameraman or to train, to become a cameraman. and they asked me for my portfolio, that I didn't have a portfolio. So I went out and shot a portfolio and that process of. taking one roll of 36, Ilford FP4 and putting it through my Raleigh E35. was a really interesting process because, I learned so much about photography at that point. I mean, I'd already. I think I understood the basics, but shutter speed, and aperture, et cetera. And, it was a case of going out there and shooting for a specific project. And I really liked that because until that point, when I was out with a camera, I was just wondering with the camera in hand waiting for. Something fabulous to appear in front of me so that I could take a picture of it. and so it was a fairly aimless process, but once I had a project, once I knew what I wanted to achieve, it was actually really great, great fun. And, with that little Raleigh 35, I had to be careful because it didn't have auto focus back in those days and it wasn't even an SLR, so I had to make sure I got the focus right on every shot. And I. I think I had 24 finished prints, which I'd made in the, in my, makeshift darkroom over in my bathroom, and they were put them into a, little A4, folder and, took them with me and I got the job.

Raymond Hatfield:

You got the job. Wow. First of all, 24 out of 36, extremely high hit rates. So congratulations. So obviously, to that point, you had been shooting. Before that moment. So what was it that got you and you wanted to be a cameraman? So there was some sort of something within you that was interested in creating imagery. Where did that come from?

Damien Lovegrove:

Yes, well, my mother was artist, teacher at school, a secondary school, teaching ages 11 to 17, teaching art. And my father was an architect, and my Brother seven years older than me was a full time photographer photographing buildings and architecture for architects and developers. So, the photography and art and craft and light and tone and color and all those things were. Part of my vocabulary at that point. So I was 19 at that stage and, that was, it was quite straightforward to pick up those processes and being caught being sort of into physics and optics and things. I was pretty switched on as well regarding the technology and the understanding of, selecting the shutter speed and things. Now you mentioned that, quite a good hit rate now, of course, working on film where each. Each frame probably in today's money, each frame probably costs something like 40 pence to actually take a frame and have it processed. And so if you're on a small budget as I was, as a 19 year old, you had to make sure that every frame mattered. And so what I used a tripod for all the shots. I put the camera on a tripod and it was across a lake, perhaps a manor house, the other side of the lake and some swans swimming by and I work out where my thirds were and decide where I want to put my horizon, make sure the camera's upright, then focus at the point I wanted it to be in focus. So I've got tickle these boxes. It's a process you go through. and then you set your shutter speed for the scene, and your aperture for the scene and you decide what's that and, make sure everything ticks in with the ISO. Now, of course, on film, ISO was fixed at those days. So, because, so you had to basically decide, well, what's the ISO? You know, a minimum shutter speed might be 125th, or if you've got, some movement in the scene, and then you adjust your aperture to taste. And there's a little needle on the top of the camera, a little baton ball, and you had to sort of line the two up. So you, as long as you understood which of your three, exposure elements was going to be, the controlling one for the brightness and the exposure of the picture, you're away. And so, and that's how it was. It didn't really leave anything to chance. and you'd press the button and then you move on. You just don't bracket the exposures or anything. So, and that was a process. And of course I, in a way, I still shoot. Like that today, every picture that I take is taken on a tripod and I go through that process of deciding, of course, in digital world, we can adjust the ISO between pictures. So nearly always now the ISO is my controlling factor for how bright or dark I want the image. So, it's a different kind of process because we're in a digital environment and you can see the picture before you press the button. but still, there's no necessary, not necessarily any reason to take a second or third photograph if you've got it in the first take.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah. Well, it's easier to know now on digital than it was on film. if you knew that you got it, you could have a good idea whether or not you got it, obviously with moment and hoping to meet her the light, but now with digital, I'm always interested to know from somebody who learned photography on film, do you think that, for those who today are learning on digital, do you think that there's something that is missing? Or do you think that it's just a different learning curve?

Damien Lovegrove:

I don't think there's something missing. I just think it's working on film slows you down. That's the first thing. And so that's Partly why I mimic that by using a tripod for everything. And I light all my work, and I set the scene, I get the verticals up right in camera, et cetera. So I do all that hard work up front, and then take pictures, and then create the moment or what have you. Now working on film Film, it's all just as important because a lot of the time when I was working in the 1980s and 1990s, I was supplying pictures for photo libraries in London and some commercial clients and everything was shot on transparency. And so what you see is what you get, and there's no cropping of the frame. You can't go in and just zoom in a little bit and crop later. The transparency shows everything and the client. Gets to see everything. So, it was very important to get all those elements right. And, if you have a wealthy photographer back in the day, you could use something called a Polaroid back and get an instant idea of what your picture is going to look like. although the image quality was always very disappointing, but of course that take takes away your profit if you're working as a professional, usually having to Polaroid everything, but in the digital world, it's a different feel you've got because you can preview. I mean, obviously in 2010 when mirrorless came in, it was a massive difference because with SLR, you take a picture. And then you have to press play and look back to see what you've taken with a mirrorless camera. you see the picture before you press the button. And so it takes out big element of mystery. but also it allows you to be really creative. over it or increase the exposure by three or four stops or something, just let it really scream into the highlights and just knock it back a bit to pull back some, some detail. And you've got a, maybe a high key, beautiful piece of art that you would never have taken the risk shooting on film. You couldn't have got captured that in camera. So, but the beauty of working with film, of course, is. The, not necessarily the capture stage, the beauty is in the printing. Optical printing was the great thing, actually going straight from a negative onto a photographic paper. These days with shoot and dev and scan, and then working in a digital environment. At the end is just not the same, there's no reason really to capture in film apart from perhaps a bit of nostalgia and the cameras look cool and things. And, you know, sometimes it's surprising what triggers someone's excitement. Enough to hold a hobby or an interest and by having a really nice old 1960s Leica or, even a Russian Zorki camera or something and going out and shooting on the street and feeling, taking the time to consider the exposure and going through that analog process can be the trigger for a really enjoyable hobby. So in the same way, Some people like to play LPs, CD, that process of getting up and putting the record on and just sitting back down and listening to 22 minutes of music uninterrupted. So yeah, it's really what make it's up to you to decide. And it's a process of trying to determine what really is going to trigger that, that enthusiasm and sustain that, that enthusiasm necessary to learn and to get good, because it's in that process of improving and your output proving in the photographs that you take that gives you that motivation to continue. And I've been doing that now since as I say 1984 was when I started in photography and it's my hobby and my passion and my interest. Now. Some 40 odd years later.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah, that's great to hear you say that because I know that we have a listener who Shane He's listening right now. So when it comes to photography he got into it with digital. I think now he has like, you know, Professional grade Canon body and r6 or something like that with all the glass but for the past Four, five, maybe six months. All of his photos have been from an old, one of the last Canon Rebel film cameras that they make that, you know, cost, just a handful of dollars, not much at all. but he's been spending so much time with that and, it's been great to see his growth in photography through film that it almost seemed like his work in digital. Plateaued a bit. So as you said, there's something about that enthusiasm about the film and the shooting it and the getting it back that can be infectious that can be infectious for sure, but getting back to you I'm, sorry getting back to you. I really want to know more about your story and because you went to become a cameraman for the BBC for motion film for TV, right? When did you get into photography? It was commercial work, right?

Damien Lovegrove:

Well, yes, in 1984, BBC took me on, and it took me three years to learn the process to become a cameraman. I wasn't, a trainee assistant cameraman initially. and then another three years, To become a lighting cameraman, and then another three years to become a lighting director. So nine years of training to get to that stage. and then there was a big change in the environment at the BBC. A lot of people were made redundant. I lost my job, but I got a job in news. And so I became a news cameraman. But all the way through that professional career. I had a hobby, a principal hobby, and that was photography and throughout those years as I progressed in my quality of the work I was doing for photo libraries in London and other places. The hobby grew and my experience and my talent and all the other elements of it. grew to the extent that I felt I could leave the BBC and in 1998, I did to become a full time stills photographer. so that was the point where I decided that the art, working in, in, within the news environment in television wasn't enough. I needed that a little bit more of an artistic control. So I've started shooting stills for commercial companies like Peugeot, Motorola, Parker pens. You know, a lot of adidas, big brands. Big companies and corporations, but I was pretty rubbish at getting the money. And it was always, a faff and also the photography, when you do a really thorough job and what you consider to be a great job of photographing someone's product, and you barely get a thank you, you know, it's just a year, a year and a line and expense on a spreadsheet for someone. So that really didn't tick my boxes. And so I then went into what I call retail photography, photographing people. But the people in the picture were the people that were buying the pictures and that was my weddings and portraits and that's when it suddenly changed for me. I realized that I wanted to be hugged at the end of a wedding. Oh my word, you're amazing. And then when they see the pictures of their friends and their loved ones, the tears flow because they're just so You suddenly photography had a value and it was being valued and I had a skill that I could embrace and enjoy. And, I shot 400 weddings, in that, in a process. I paid my mortgage and it was very, very lucrative, but I never lost the fun of photographing people and being with people. So that was the motivation for my photography.

Raymond Hatfield:

400 weddings, 400 weddings. I just wrapped up my career, my very short career as a wedding photographer. I'd been shooting for about 10 years and, I only shot just a handful over a hundred weddings. And I thought to myself, wow, that's a lot of weddings. But to hear 400 weddings is phenomenal and almost, awe inspiring. And I want to know in that time, Okay, so obviously you were accomplished when it came to, you knew how to use a camera, you knew how to use light, but when you think about that first wedding that you shot, and then you think about one of the last weddings that you shot, what do you think was the biggest, area of growth that you made in your photography?

Damien Lovegrove:

The ability to direct, I think I'm, I'd worked in television for, a large number of years at that time. And I learned from some of the great directors of the day. And it was fantastic watching artistic directors and I learned how to. Pose people in a way that I could capture pictures of the two of them in love and the connection between them and not the connection between them and the camera. So it was a case of being able to create a bit like a director of on a theater stage or a movie director. You're creating a scene in front of you, which is. Completely fictitious, but you're making it look realistic. And that was what that was part of what I had, which I could offer. And with weddings, I think after the first 20 or so, I'd realized that I needed to become much more narrow and focused in my style. So what I did was quite unique in a way because, together with my wife, we worked out that what we wanted to do was carry forward that cinematic style. Now, when you shoot. For movies, for cinema, the camera is always at a height of, sort of shirt pocket or, above, just above the waist, and it's always looking up to people, actors, and so it has that lovely, sort of makes them look tall and powerful, and you have this Aperture, which is fixed. So when you're working the film, and you have fixed apertures, you've got to keep swapping out ND filters to maintain that aperture. And that's what they do on movie sets. So they might shoot for six months to create one movie. Everything is shot at F4 or F2. 8 because it has a consistent look and feel. So for 10 years, I shot every wedding at F4.

Raymond Hatfield:

The whole day every

Damien Lovegrove:

picture of every wedding was one that was what was there for and we used to set our cameras to 800 ISO and leave it at 800 ISO to leave it at F4 and just tweak the shutter speed to suit the moment and to suit the light level that was where we were. So, an interior like the one I'm in now, or a hotel interior back in the day, lit with tungsten light, was 800 ISO, was always the same, it was about 800 lux, and that was the light level that people were comfortable in, and so we just went from there.

Raymond Hatfield:

That is amazing. I know that there are a lot of people right now who are listening thinking, Wait, my camera goes up to 3200 and that's never enough. and here you are shooting every wedding, around 800 ISO. Obviously, there are times where You just don't simply have enough light, the exposure is just to bear in

Damien Lovegrove:

mind, bear in mind, we finished shooting weddings in about 2010. And since then, led lighting has taken over the world interiors. And what's more, we've gone all our interiors now that we consider to be comfortable interiors are about one stop darker than they were. So that's worth bearing in mind. So we're down to about 400 lux in a modern place. And so candles look lovely and everything has got slightly warm and beautiful glow in the evenings. And so now I would be sitting at my camera basically at 1600 ISO or 3, 200. but we never went from F4 down to 2. 8, even though our lenses did. Did because at F4, we could get four eyes. You know, people, if we were looking to camera, we could get all the eyes in the same focal plane and get them sharp. So it wasn't a photograph of the groom and the bride is slightly out of focus or a photograph of the bride, but a groom slightly out of focus. So we could work that plus you still had. Out of focus backgrounds, you still have that separation with focus and therefore, and so it was a consistent look right away through the album. And, yeah, and it was part of a process. It was part of a product that we were producing. But I think sometimes simplifying things is the way to become good quickly. So for instance, I didn't have a standard lens in my camera bag. I had a wide lens. I had a tight lens and so I go into a scene it might be let's say the groom and his ushers and a best man in a hotel room and they're sort of putting on ties and things I think right okay so I'll put a wide lens on to get the scene the wide shot of the scene and I'll tidy up the background Then get rid of the bags and the half eaten sandwiches and the bottles of beer from the night before switch off the rug And then I could switch to the tighter lens and get all my close ups and the close ups would include details, of course, like the best man's speech or the rings or, things like that, as well as close ups of interaction between people. So, it was either a wide shot or a close up. And then when you have an album or put together a collection of pictures, we used to have a wide shot, establishing picture, close up, close up, close up. You turn the page and then it'd be paid with the bride and her bridesmaids as a wide shot and then a close up, close up, close up. So you, you're building a product over a period of a day, which has a rhythm and that has a style, which is repeats and it's predictable. And it's gorgeous. And then when the viewer of the photographs goes into and starts looking at the work, they're not looking at. It's not the photography they're looking at, they're looking at the narrative, they're looking at the story, they're looking at the elements of the day. And, it's, actually a really rewarding process. So, if you're photographing perhaps your family or a child that's growing up from birth or even from pregnancy right the way through to a teenager. Let's say this is a little personal project that you've got. Think about using the same lens. And keep that lens for years and just work with that one lens, and take pictures in, in certain things, like maybe in their bedroom, sitting on their bed, surrounded by the things that are important to them. and as they grow up and become teenagers, that might be an electric guitar, it might be something else, but there'll be a rhythm in the set of pictures. Which will have a great value later on.

Raymond Hatfield:

Hey, Raymond here. And we will get back to today's interview in just a moment. In today's digital world, knowing how to edit your images is more important than ever. Now, today's top photographers around the world lean into the editing process more of, uh, as a maker's mark for their images. Now you want a style of your own too, but you don't know where to start. That is precisely why I have created 52 free Lightroom presets for you to download right now. Presets are not a one click solution, you know this, but they are simply the perfect teaching tool to see step by step how a look is created so that you can create a unique editing style all of your own as well. So download your 52 free Lightroom presets today over at freephotography. com. presets.com. Now, back to today's interview. I'm writing that down because that is a fantastic idea that I can imagine seeing. You know, one thing that I do, and this is obviously but I like to, just every once in a while, if I have my camera with me, I'll walk by my son's room or my daughter's room and just grab a quick photo of it. whether it's messy, whether it's clean, whatever. Just cause I know when they turn 18, seeing, you know, well, 18 different photos of what their room looked like is gonna be different. But, taking that time to get a little bit closer, Maybe find the things that they're interested in. right now, my son is really into geography. So maybe some books that he's really into, a rock tumbler. I could see how those would add context and really make an impact as they get older. So, so I, I appreciate that. when it comes to going to a wedding, like we talked about, you have your base exposure that you try to go with, but one of the things that you're very well known for is your use of, Light your use of flash and just like really making compelling images with light and that's one of the things that new photographers struggle with The most you say, you know, you have to learn to see the light their first response is I see it everywhere. It's it's light. What do you mean? how do we kind of develop that eye to see light in a more critical sense?

Damien Lovegrove:

Okay. I think the first thing is, it's not necessarily being able to see the light, although that is a phrase that everyone uses. It's been able to take control of light. So in this situation here, for instance, I've got a light, a key light, which is lighting me. I've got a button. backlight, giving me a bit of rim light. and there's some background and I've set the background lighting is fixed level. So I set my exposure, which is the MacBook pro camera on that. And I adjust my other lights to suit. it's quite straightforward. And when shooting weddings, it used to take a, an Ari 300. Uh, what Fresnel lens light. Take it on, put on a stand and we're at the reception venue. You nip up to the bride's bride and groom's bedroom, set that up there. And then when that was all rigged and set, we used to come down and get the bride and groom from their reception and take them up and do some lovely pictures, very Hollywood esque style pictures. and once you've got a light, you can pan it around and control it and do what you want with it. it's fantastic. But I mean, we weren't working with soft light. We were working with. So, and that was part of the process, but what you can do at home without even having any lights is to go into a room, close the curtains, close the shutters. If you've got shutters, close the door and start with a black dark space, then open the one curtain just a Bit and look at the way that the light comes through that slash of light the way it dances across the bed or it's where it hits the room because the whole room stays subdued but there's a pool of light that comes in just by closing the curtains and opening them a little bit you create shape with the light and then you place you sit a bride there in on the edge of the bed with that light coming in from the curtains looks fantastic whereas if all the curtains are wide open It it just looks like a bride sit on a bed in a bedroom. So it's taking control of light. Sometimes it's about what you remove rather than what you put in.

Raymond Hatfield:

Oh, wow. Sometimes it's what you remove rather than put in. so when it comes to light, right, obviously, it's not just about blasting a scene full of light that is not going to get you anywhere. That's

Damien Lovegrove:

illuminating.

Raymond Hatfield:

Right. That is illuminating. That's

Damien Lovegrove:

what you do if you put your flash on camera with a stove and or whatever and it just the flash zooms out it illuminates the scene. Now with a flash on camera of course it's quite a hard light and it can look very fashionable especially if you've got people coming out of a nightclub or in it all dressed up for an evening you know they are publishable works of art. Often, and you often see people's work, famous photographers, testine or people like that. You look at the pictures and you think, well, that's just flash on camera. So that's what it needs to be. It doesn't have to be, it just has to be considered if that makes sense. but you can also, as soon as you start putting soft boxes and big umbrellas and things, then you start to lose an element of control and then it's hard to fight and bring that back. because Of course, window is not the light source, you can't replace a window with a softbox and expect it to, be a light source, because it's not the window is just a hole that the light comes through, and the light comes from the sky beyond. And so another way of working is to put I when I'm shooting interiors. things. I put a light outside on the patio or in the garden in the yard, set it up and pump it through the window and make it make my sunlight where I want it to be. So I can be on the north side of a building in the northern hemisphere, um, and, make it a sunny room. even if it's on the first floor or, the second floor, what have you just use a tool stand for that process. But, I quite often I'm putting light in from outside, rather than lighting from within the space. If that makes sense,

Raymond Hatfield:

it does. It does. Okay. So taking control of light is the most important thing that we should take away from what you're saying here. What is the balance then? Because I know that a lot of. And myself included, I shot almost all of my weddings without an assistant or anybody. It was just me. I need to bring out the flash and set it up for the shot, or? can I get away with just a basic exposure here? So how did you kind of run through that, uh, that question? The majority

Damien Lovegrove:

of pictures where we were in the evening, where we were getting photographs of a group, a small group of people or the bride with her brother or the mother bride's mother on the stairs or something, we'd be used a flash, a speed light. With a stove and I don't know whether stuff is like a plastic dome and these things come included now and when modern day speed lights from and from China there's a white plastic dome it fits on the top so the light that becomes like a light bulb the light goes in all directions it doesn't soften the light it's not because the hardness or softness of light is relative to the size of the light source so it doesn't make the flash any bigger it just means that the light goes in all directions and then I put a coiled lead from that to the camera. Don't rely on radio triggers because at some point they're not going to work and they'll interfere. The local taxi company will interfere with it or whatever. generally speak, I just put a cable and I have to flash in one hand, with the stove foot and I have it up high. I have the camera in the other and I can take a picture and I can make the cam flash to this side or this side, depending on what I need it for. And working with that small angle of flash to camera. Fantastic. And the pictures look great because you've got this crisp light, which looks lovely and the colors of the clothing that they have is fun. People was fantastic, because you know what it's like a wedding. There's a certain lilac or purple and it's been chosen about was a Pantone color. and of course, in a hotel with sort of slightly muddy lighting, relatively poor LED lighting, that can, you can lose all track of what Color is and so by popping in a bit of consistent light from a flash gun in through the front but allowing the ambient exposure behind to still record nicely in the image you see it's that that little blend which is 800 iso 60th f4 it'll be fine or I should say 1600 iso a 60th f4 these days and a splash of flash in the front Perfect. Maybe what, a third of a stop let down, on the flash exposure, but it's still going to give you a point of light in the eyes. It's going to make everyone's skin look great. the colors will look fantastic and you still can see in the background the environment they're in. It could be a Christmas tree, could be a roaring fire and a big log fire or, what have you, it could be a disco with DJ lights and lasers and things like that. That just, that'll all get recorded. And just pop your splasher flash in from the front and looks good.

Raymond Hatfield:

Well, I'm going to play devil's advocate here because I know a lot of people are going to be thinking this question. And that is, now we got some cords, we got another thing to hold on to, we got some batteries to deal with, why not just raise up our ISO, what are we getting out of a flash that we can't get from just, it's

Damien Lovegrove:

all about lighting angle and direction. Okay, it's hard to understand if you raise the light that's in the. an ambient space is normally pretty rubbish. So I've chosen where I want to sit in this room. I thought, okay, this will be a nice place to sit. And then I put my light in to make it look great. Whereas if I just switch the lights on in the room, and then thought, well, that's Maybe I'll go here. These, we have top lights that come down. These little down lighters. The little curse of everything. Because they make eyes go like black holes. And there's these horrible shadows everywhere. And the nose shadow comes all the way down to the chin. So there's all this stuff going on. And you just want to get rid of all that. As soon as you've got your own light source, which you can bring in really close to the camera, then you can shoot anywhere. So if someone says, Oh, can we have a picture in front of the Christmas tree or by the Christmas tree, or can we take a picture on the stairs, or can I have a picture in the bath, you know, get, no water in it, but you might want to get a couple of the girls might be in there with their champagne or what have you, and it'll look great. And you can just take a picture and it will look great. Lovely. So, the thing is you really on what you want to try and achieve. I mean, when you shoot, I'm photographing weddings and things. What I'm trying to achieve is not having to think about the technology at all. So the shutter speed and the ISO things all set the flash power set. It's on a cord, can't go wrong. So that's that sorted. So all I'm going to do is I'll put that down. I'll get the people in the right places. I might move the bouquets to put them in the background. I might get them a bit closer together. I'll create that energy and that spark, throw a bit of laughter in there, pick the camera up, bang, got my picture. So it's all about the accessories to the image that create the content. The illumination or the lighting of the content is perhaps, less important. But you want something that is consistent and is gonna make the skin tones and the everything look great. And if you look at, like news readers, in a studio, and you look at the lighting on their faces, it's hard light. Bit like I've got here, I've got hard light. So you can tell hard light, I've got the shadow from my hands. Yeah, that's hard light.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah.

Damien Lovegrove:

Okay. The hard light is actually more flattering than soft light. But people think of soft light or think, oh, that's going to be better for the skin. But ultimately, you're going to probably Photoshop anyway. But hard light is more flattering because it is narrow on the skin. And if you get it steep enough, so you can still get it into your eyes, it will. create a nice chiseled look, and it's crisp and it'll look fantastic.

Raymond Hatfield:

Wow. I don't think anybody on the podcast has really talked about this, but I also don't think that many people have as much experience as you do with light. So can you explain that a little more? why do so many people think that soft light is so much better than hard light? Is that the right term there?

Damien Lovegrove:

Yeah. Okay. So with soft light, you imagine that you've got someone in camera like me. okay. And I'm lit now with a hard light. So can you see the sides of my face here getting darker? All right. Now, if that lights, instead of it being a small circle of light, it's a point of light about that diameter. If it was a wide light that site in front of me, then the sides of my face would be equally illuminated, which means that my face would have a visual appearance of looking wider. Soft light makes people's faces look wider. That's it. you can't get around that fact. Hard light, the narrower the light source, the narrower the face looks. And when you move the camera angle away from the light, and you're working with a sort of narrow angle, what you want to try and do is look into the unlit side of the face, because that's the most flattering, way of working. But you want the light to come from the white onto the wider side of the face. So for instance, let's say. The distance between my eye and my mouth here was smaller this side than it is that side. I'd want to light into the smaller side and then put the larger side of my face into shadow. Therefore, it'll balance it out and make the person's face look symmetrical. If someone's got a nose that's bent that way, what you do is you don't light against the bend because it makes this, you know, so it'll take the shadow across. I'm not, it's hard work because I'm not looking in the mirror. I'm looking at myself on the little screen, but you understand. So I bring a light in from here. If the nose is bent that way and I bring a light in from there, the shadow will go long, but if you light into the bend, The shadow is small and it will, in fact, it will straighten the nose. when you're photographing people, there's a lot of these little traits and things. I learned these at the BBC because I had to, make sure that the actors and the performers were lit beautifully and they, I could recognize what their best side was. when someone says, this is my best side, that means that that's the side they want to be No, that, that, and it's nearly always true. And you can tell often because someone's parting is opened on that side saying, look at me from here. So anyway, whatever that aside to all these little elements are the things that when I started out with my little Raleigh 35, taking pictures for that portfolio, I had no concept of how to actually light someone, how to make someone look good. Great. You know how to bring out the best in them visually using tone, shade, all of those elements, whether it's going to be hard, crisp, hard light, soft light, because people are here will be thinking, well, what is he talking about? Soft light's wonderful, put someone near a window and have that bathed in soft light and they will look fantastic if you shoot it a bleak so that you're not shooting the whole face or it will, it can look great. So, it's not necessarily. Me saying that hard light is the best for me. It is the best and that's why film productions All through hollywood right away through the cnn and bbc all around the world Anyway, if you want to make someone look good use hard light and that's how it works. and yeah, so that's That's it really that was a wonderful explanation Yeah, there's this, there's a lot to learn when you're photographing people. But the most important element isn't really the technical and whether you're using hard light or soft light and whether the light key light is in a certain angle. Most important element is the connection with a person, the energy that you bring into the camera. And that can just be, I tend to work with, mirror. directing. So when I'm working on photographing a child at a wedding, then there might be a three year old or something, a four year old, and they're sitting on the step outside the church and there's two of them. They're sitting side by side and I get them to put an arm around each other and all the people around there with their phones are going, Oh, that's so cute. And they're taking their pictures from standing up, and, but I'm down at ground level camera down below me. and I'm going, you know, and I'm like, Oh, Or I'm creating a little laugh, making the laugh and creating the moment. And when you look back at the picture, it's that little moment and the reaction to the photographer. So there's the photographer's input in that picture. Plus, of course, the cameras from take, in the right height and things like that. But, What else is there? I, another little tip I suppose is that, I mentioned earlier how the camera is lower. Mm-Hmm. . And if you look back in the last part of the last century, some of the classic portrait pictures, that the gray scene, the Metropolitan Museum of Art and the London Portrait Gallery, and all around the world, these pictures that have been collected of the film, the famous. film stars of the time. they all shot from below, the camera's down here and it's because of a waist level finders. So the photographer's got the head down looking into the finder and the lenses below them and it's looking up to, so you look up to the face and down to the feet. That's always the rule. they look fantastic. And I would encourage people to do is to come away from looking through the little hole because soon as 35 mil cameras were invented back in the wartime, middle of the last century, where you had the, you look through a little hole to see the picture through a reef, a little bit of reflex there, or, through, a little optical viewfinder, then the camera came up to the face. And people might dip their legs a little bit to think, Oh, I'm getting a bit down here, but actually, they're probably only moving that much.

Raymond Hatfield:

Few inches.

Damien Lovegrove:

the trick is now we've got this wonderful, well, or LCD displays, OLEDs or whatever. and we don't have to have the camera at eye level. Don't have to look through a little hole. And I think that's why smartphones have become so useful.

Raymond Hatfield:

You

Damien Lovegrove:

want to take a picture of a. Like everyone seems to do and put it on social media. You can get the camera down low. You can get it in close. You can incorporate, you can bring in all sorts of other elements into the picture. You can isolate it and choose your lens angle. And it's effortless. And what you're seeing is what you're going to get. And they'll look fantastic. You try and do the same shot with a. Proper camera, and you've got to move chairs out the way you've got to bring in a tripod because it's going to be a slow shutter speed. And then you got to think about what lens you're going to use and change lens, it all becomes a palaver, then the lighting is not good enough. Of course, the cameras, the little iPhones working or the Samsung or what have you is working super hard with its AI built in to balance things out. And it says, Oh, I know you, you know, to see these persons photograph in a plate of food, so I know what to do with a plate of food. I know how to make it look great. And so you're working against all that stuff so sometimes the technology and things like the phone makes you realize just how powerful photography is and how Irrelevant is having the camera up here and how you can work with a camera below. And I think that's one of the best things for people. Photography is just to get the camera lower. and, yeah.

Raymond Hatfield:

How do we avoid looking up into people's noses when we have the camera, say chest height or waist height? That's something that I hear often is when we're looking. Yeah, it depends

Damien Lovegrove:

on the person you're photographing. ultimately, if you photograph at eye height. photographs of eye height and you want to like a full length picture. Basically, you've got to tip the camera down so that the head is in the top half of the picture and you'll find that the head is just like big and their feet are tiny, right? And it's all distorted. It looks terrible, but that's what people do because they want to, Oh, I'll take a picture of you. and then they tip the camera down and take the shot. They focus and reframe and shoot. And it always looks appalling. If you keep the back of the camera up, right? So the verticals are up, right, and you shoot sort of midway up the body. So you're looking up to the face and down to the feet. Looks fantastic. So, so I suppose it's a ten year old, viewpoint. Is probably the best viewpoint for a lot of the photography of, of people. So I gotta go. Take a look. The next time you look at Netflix, Amazon prime, whatever you look at a, a documentary movie, just make a conscious note of how high the camera is in the piece, whether it was a documentary interview piece or whether it's a scene in a James Bond film or what have you just look at the camera height and the camera position and you're suddenly arise. Ah, he's got a point there or what have you. Yeah. All right. So, these creatives in Hollywood and, in that film and TV industry, they really know they suss things out and there's a lot of tradition there, which carries through because it's good. It works.

Raymond Hatfield:

Right. Yeah. it's time tested for sure. I got one last question here for you about light and that is you know, we talked about the importance of controlling light and being able to Come in and just create a scene You know, we're going into a black box say a hotel room and then we start to introduce light itself I want to know for you. What is the balance between? just Killing all ambient light and creating a scene versus just adding that touch of light, say, when a couple wants to take a photo next to a Christmas tree. How do you make that distinction?

Damien Lovegrove:

Well, first of all, you've ambient light lovely? you walk into a room, just think, Oh, this is nice in here. Because if it is great, that sets your exposure to get the ambient. Right. Then you've gotta choose a position where the person you're photographing isn't being clobbered with some downlight. So you've gotta choose that position carefully. And you might be able to use a downlight as a bit of a backlight, like the light that's on me here. and then you pop your key light in such a way that it doesn't destroy the background. I'm gonna stand up and adjust this light. Sure. Just take a look at the curtains on the background. Okay. Alright. So, if I bring this key light, if I tip it up, can you see that? Yes. Right. That's control of light. Okay. You don't want to just put light on the background. You want to keep the light off the background and put the light where you want it. That's just control of light. All right. So it's a case of just being able to, when you're working with hard light, you can do that. You can't do that. If I had a soft box here on me, I couldn't do that. It would just light the room, illuminate

Raymond Hatfield:

it.

Damien Lovegrove:

And then I'd have no control. It would just rattle around everywhere. And I wouldn't have that element of control.

Raymond Hatfield:

Okay, I gotcha. I gotcha. So really, one of the hardest things I think to teach in photography is figure out, your artistic voice, right? Because there's a lot of different options, on how to use light from hard to soft to, large light source to continuous to flash and all these things. And I think what it sounds like what it comes down to is you really have to use your eyes. Um, how do you make a decision and then go based on that? Is that correct?

Damien Lovegrove:

Yeah, I think so. I think, if the work that you're doing, if your own personal photography, if it doesn't, if it's not really fulfilling in the sense that you know, it can be better, but you don't really know how explore light now, it doesn't have to be complicated. It doesn't have to be hard. It can just be literally a speed light on a stand with some little barn doors or snoot or something and use that. For a whole project, let's say photograph the people in your neighborhood, perhaps the top 20 women in business in the town that you live in or something, come up with some crazy project. and then go off and photograph that when, when, of course, when you invite someone to say, Oh, I'm doing a project on the top 20. 20 women in business in Wedmore or wherever you happen to live, people are going to say, Oh yes, I'm quite happy to be there. Come and photograph me. And so you have that opportunity. You might only need 10 or 15 minutes, but photograph them with that little snooted light or something and then do each person in the same way. And then when you get to, when you've got your 20 people, put an exhibition on the local library or the local Town hall or something. And the next thing you know, you've created a style. And it doesn't have to come from any more than a speed line, but you stick to a unique style and a way of shooting. And you may be shooting in black and white, or you shoot it all with an orange gel on the flash and you give it a little bit of a warm glow or maybe cool background and warm foreground, whatever, come up with something that you'd like the look of. And you can practice on your family or your neighbors or your friends, and then try it out. Go out there and shoot a project. and that will be, it'll be such a steep learning curve and you'll get to the 20th person and you'll wish you really shot the first four or five because, uh, uh, but that's all right. That's fine. just let it go. You know, be comfortable with the work you're doing, but understand where you can get better. And that's all progress.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah. Wow. Damien. I don't know. I really hope that somebody listening takes you up on that project and decides to go out and do that because, not only is that going to be real world experience behind the camera, but also, get you out into your community and, lets others know that you are a photographer and there's nothing wrong with that. So thank you so much for sharing that. before I let you go, Damien, we're at the end of our time. So people are listening. They're thinking, wow, there's a lot of great information here. I want to learn more. From damian, where can we find you online?

Damien Lovegrove:

Well, I think they're probably the best Well, there's a couple of places. I have a youtube channel, called love grove training So it's youtube forward slash c forward slash love grove training or pro photo nut that's my blog just, profoto. com, there's, I think about 500 pillar articles. I started the blog in 2008, so it's a lot of, information there. and then there's Lovegrove Adventures that link, that's where I have, I run workshops, in America and Italy and places. but really the most important element I think is probably if you want to learn about lighting, go onto my YouTube channel, and just watch some videos. There's great videos there for learning how to use speed lights out on location, out on the street, learning how to use, continuous light and things like that. and on the blog, you'll find that if you're fed up with. Adverts on YouTube, you'll find that most of the titles that are on YouTube in full length also on the blog. So we'll get the name you want of the video and you can go and watch it on the blog and it will be advert free.

Raymond Hatfield:

So much experience that guy. Seriously, Damien, thank you so much for coming on the podcast and sharing all that you did. your insight I think is very different than a lot of other people's. What other photography educators share. but it's proven in your case and, we can see that, maybe it's not always soft light and rainbows that we are searching for. I have three main takeaways from this episode today with this. Damien, the first one is not to be scared to experiment. light is light and, it's not all the same, but it all has a use. So find out when to use hard light, when do you soft light, based on your preferences, for your own photography. And the only way that you can do that is through actually doing through experimentation. take away number two that I had is try not to think about seeing light. But. Try to think of it as controlling light, right? Look for your light sources, see what you can do with them, and when you need more light, add it, right? Pretty simple. And my last takeaway here was that you can't make a decision tree when to use light and how to build a shot because, well, only you can decide what you want the photo to look like. Then you just simply use the tools to build it really powerful takeaways. And do not forget to check out Damien's YouTube channel. Honestly, he has so much great information. He has a full, I think it's a two and a half hour long, behind the scenes of a wedding day where you're going to see him, Using light where you're going to see him, struggling with just the everyday challenges that you have at weddings. and he also has tons and tons and tons and tons of lighting tutorials on his YouTube as well. So the link to that is going to be in the show notes. Highly suggest that you check it out. and yeah, if you're driving, check out the link in the show notes. Well, if you've got any questions about today's episode or feedback on the show, I would love to hear from you. Feel free to reach out to me directly via the contact page over at beginnerphotographypodcast. com. That is where you can shoot me an email, or even better, a voicemail. Yeah, brand new technology. These voicemails let me hear from you directly in your own words, which is, I think, a lot more powerful than, just reading the typed words that you put in. On a computer over the internet, right? That's why I like having these conversations in a, podcast rather than just reading people's blog posts. Cause I want to, talk to you. I want to hear from you. And while you are there at the website, be sure to check out and grab my free picture, perfect camera settings, cheat sheet. I've got camera settings for more than 10 popular types of photography filled with my personal and professional images. And then the real life camera settings that I used to capture those images so that you know how to get started. Well, that is it for this week. Thank you again for tuning into this episode of the Beginner Photography Podcast, brought to you by Clouds Spot, which truly is the easiest way to deliver and sell your photos online. You can learn more about Clouds Spot by heading over to deliver photos.com. And remember, the more that you shoot today, the better you will be tomorrow. Talk soon.

Outro:

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