The Beginner Photography Podcast

Tips on How To Be A BAD Wedding Photographer with Casey Fatchett

• Raymond Hatfield

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#362 In today's episode of the Beginner Photography Podcast, Casey Fatchett shares tips on how to be a bad wedding photographer. He talks about some of his own photography mistakes, such as his flash going out mid-wedding and his camera dying the day before a wedding he was scheduled to shoot. He also offers advice on what photographers can do to ruin a couple's wedding day.

Casey Fatchett hosts The Nerdy Photographer Podcast, an informative, entertaining, and irreverent look at the photo industry. Casey brings his more than twenty years of professional photography experience, primarily as a wedding photographer, to every episode.

Casey is lactose intolerant, loves talking about himself in the third person, and can be found making his wife laugh or hiking with his dog when not creating images for his clients.

THE BIG IDEAS

  • Preparation Over Perfection: True professionalism means always having backup gear and being ready for surprises. Being prepared matters more than flawless images.
  • Collaboration Over Ego: Your artistic vision is important, but collaborating and listening to clients’ preferences ensures you deliver photos they value.
  • Adaptability Fuels Growth: When things inevitably go wrong—like equipment failure or missed moments—adapt, improvise, and learn to turn challenges into growth.
  • Resilience Is Key: Mistakes will happen, but your ability to own them, recover, and improve builds trust and credibility for your future work.

Resources:

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Thanks for listening & keep shooting!

Casey Fatchett:

I think that the problem that happens for a lot of photographers or wedding photographers, especially when they're starting out, is that they don't have a lot of gear necessarily. and cameras are expensive. it feels like a burden to have, multiple camera bodies or to have all this stuff, but you absolutely need to have a backup. And online forums are a great place to just kind of like drive yourself crazy. I saw somebody had commented, I think this was on Reddit where I said, you need to have a backup camera. And someone said, I've got my phone. And I'm just like, Oh, no, no.

Raymond Hatfield:

Hey, welcome to episode 362 of the Beginner Photography Podcast, brought to you by Cloudspot, the all in one solution for photographers to deliver and sell your photos online. As always, I am your host, Raymond Hatfield, and today we are chatting with a wedding photographer, Casey Fadgett, about how to be a bad wedding photographer. I realized the other day that, for some reason, all of the info out there on the internet about being a wedding photographer is how to be a good wedding photographer. And I'm sure some of you want to be a bad wedding photographer, or maybe you just want to know what mistakes to avoid so that you don't become a bad wedding photographer. So guess what? I got you covered in today's episode here with Casey, who has not only shot more than 800 weddings. But is the host of the Nerdy Photographer podcast as well. Now this is a long episode because, well, there's a lot that goes into being a bad wedding photographer. it's not just mistakes like, I forgot to have a client sign a contract or I thought I knew where the church was but I showed up at the wrong church. Both of which I have done myself. But these are like wrong decisions, that a photographer could make throughout the day. And, Stick around towards the end where I actually ask chat GPT what photographers can do to ruin a couple's wedding day You don't want to miss its surprising answer. So with that, let's go ahead and get on into today's interview with Casey Fadjen Casey, I know that today we are going to be sharing how to be a bad wedding photographer And as I was preparing for this, some of the questions some of the tips I kind of thought in my head, you know, this might sound really pretentious if we do this. so instead of asking you my regular first question, which is, when did you know that photography was going to play an important role in your life? My first question for you today is, well, I just want to know that you're human. So can you tell me about one of the worst wedding experiences you've ever had as a photographer?

Casey Fatchett:

as it was my fault. Yes. Yeah. sure. Let's see. well, there's two that I can think of. one, I was in the middle of the shooting the wedding and this was fairly early on in my career and my flash died, like it completely went out and I didn't have another one. Oh, no. I had like the one that was on my other camera body and that was it. Like, so then I, like I was switching up my style. It's a super, super dark venue. It was where you really need flash. And, I wasn't, this is before, off camera flash was like as popular as it is now, and I didn't have an off camera flash set up. And yeah, so basically one with one camera body, I just pulled out my like 50, 1. 4. It was shooting everything that I could and hoping that some of it came out at like as wide open as possible and like at a pretty high ISO. And I looked back at those photos recently and I was like, Ooh, The technology was not quite good enough at that point for like noise reduction and the, I like the, there was a lot of, it was pretty grainy images and I'm not really, I wouldn't say proud of those photos. Looking back on them now, it was not good. and the other was where, I only had one camera. Mm-Hmm, . And my camera died the day before, like luck. This was lucky. My camera died the day before the wedding. and it was a good thing that I went and like getting ready for this wedding, which I had traveled for.

Raymond Hatfield:

Oh no. This is again,

Casey Fatchett:

earlier on in my career and I like traveled to the Midwest for this wedding and I went to check out my gear before the day before and like the camera just wasn't even turning on. there was not even getting an error message. I had to go out and buy a new camera.

Raymond Hatfield:

Ouch.

Casey Fatchett:

the day before this wedding. So yeah, I would say that was painful. I also didn't get the camera that I really wanted if I was going to like buy a new camera at that point. yeah, that wasn't so good though. Those are, I would probably calculate as much. It was also like when I got this, I got this new camera, it was like the menus and everything were like just slightly different than the older camera that I had had previously. So I was still trying to, like, figure things out the next day. I always tell people, like, if you're getting a new camera, don't, like, get it just before you're about to go on a job. which I will say, I recently, I've not fully made the switch to mirrorless, but I may, I've got a mirrorless camera. Got the R5, and I'm still figuring out everything. Like, it took me a little while to figure out, like, if I had tried to go on a shoot, within, like, three days of getting that thing, I would not have been able to do the things that I normally do with my camera. Wow. just because like the menus and how you get to certain things are different. Like the layout is very different. as far as the switching from different types of metering or getting into, basically have to switch it over to the movie mode to be able to change the movie settings, which I didn't realize at first, like that was like. Uh, like you normally for me, all that stuff is leading up to that was all in the same settings on your menu. Now there are two different sets of menus. There's one for like stills, and then there's one for movies or film or video. And you're, you need to switch into the video mode before you can change those settings. I was like, how the hell do I change the resolution of the video? I want to try it out. And they're like, eh, I guess I have to actually read instructions.

Raymond Hatfield:

That's the worst when you actually have to read Instructions . Oh, man.

Casey Fatchett:

My, my grandfather used to say that, instructions are for people who don't know what they're doing.

Raymond Hatfield:

right. Yeah. that's the point of the instructions. That's, uh, that's, yeah. That's why they're there.

Casey Fatchett:

Yeah. Jokingly like, yeah, eh, we can, we don't do that. We'll just figure it out. We'll figure it out.

Raymond Hatfield:

do you find that you today where you just, you typically don't look at a manual you think because of that?

Casey Fatchett:

yeah, I mean, I like to, I will. My first experience with any new piece of equipment is always to just try it out. And, see how things work. And if, you know, Hey, you know, then I will go in and be like, all right, I need to do a deeper dive and like really sink into the menus and things like that and how things are done. And then if there's something I can't figure out, then I will open up the book and be like, all right, how do I do this? usually for me, like the DSLR, Canon DSLRs, had, have had pretty much the same menus for a long time. So you weren't really like, you didn't really have to do much, anything different. this menu setup is a little different. The controls are like slightly different on the R5. I find it now more of an issue with lighting equipment. Hmm. Now with flashes. it, which is usually because like, then like there's a new, like, whatever it is, if there's an evolution from one model to the next model, they tend to add, add new features. and sometimes you don't know where those features are or how to get to them. So, then I find myself going through the manual and going, all right, how the hell do I do this? Now you used to know how to do this. then you changed the, you got rid of the two of the buttons on the back of the flash. And, now they're like buried in like a menu setting somewhere instead of being able to quickly hit a button.

Raymond Hatfield:

Right. I've never had that problem shooting, with, I guess just manual flashes. I think when I switched from, because when I was shooting on Canon, I had, whatever the 580 X, whatever it is, whatever that flash was. And I was like, this isn't bad, it does the job, but for some reason, I don't know if the metering modes were off on my 5D Mark II at the time, but it was wildly inconsistent when I would shoot TTL and give me bad results, like I did not like them. So I just switched over to shooting a manual to avoid potential issues, and then once I just learned that and then once I switched over to Fuji, luckily because I was still shooting in manual, everything's, I still use the same flashes and everything when I, when I switched over to Fuji that it all worked. When

Casey Fatchett:

you can shoot manually, like either with the camera or with your flash, you don't need to. You don't need to like figure out new stuff like I shoot manual flash in, wedding receptions, things like that. If I'm doing portraiture, like I, you know, meter and, you know, I will use the same settings on the flashes and, I set up for the reception room. I rarely use TCL, anymore. But yeah, it's the same thing you'd be my problems with the flash units are generally like sinking.

Raymond Hatfield:

Oh, okay. Yeah

Casey Fatchett:

Yeah, like between different units or like, whatever the like things that are in there Also, like I used like flash point slash Godox flashes their round head flash has an LED light on it. Like, so you like a modeling light, like a modeling flash and trying to figure out how you manipulate. Like, I couldn't figure out how to turn the damn thing on. Ah, I first got it. I was just like, okay, it's, oh, it's in the menu. Like you can turn it, kind of turn it on. But like when you change, to change the power, you have to go into the menu. And it should like on the camera dial. Yeah, and use the dial and like to up the power. And I was like, you can do it fairly quickly once you know how to do it. But like, if you didn't know, like you,

Raymond Hatfield:

like you had to buy a new camera the day before a wedding and figure all this out. Yeah.

Casey Fatchett:

If you had to like, if you have to do it in a very quick way, you just picked it up and were like, Oh, I'm going to do this. No,

Raymond Hatfield:

you're not. Right. Right. Right.

Casey Fatchett:

I measure things on how intuitive. They are, which that's part of why I just pick something up and start using it. And see how well, like, see how much I can figure out on my own. Yeah.

Raymond Hatfield:

I, uh, bought a, um, a few years ago when the, Western digital came out with some sort of, like a wifi hard drive or something, but it had an SD card reader built in. So you could ingest those photos onto the hard drive. And I thought, this is great. This will save me a ton of time on my way home from a wedding. Ingest those photos, get home, plug in the hard drive. Now they're all there. And I was, Like you, I was like, this has got to be intuitive, it's got to be easy to figure out. There was, I think only two buttons. One was power. No, no, I'm sorry. There was only one button. One was power. And then through a series of clicks, you could also ingest the images, but they made it way too complicated. And like, I think it was, if you do two clicks, you can adjust it into like individual folders for the card if you do three anyway, I tried figuring this thing out and for the life of me I could not and I made like a like a review video on it and Everybody was like this is all your fault All you had to do was read the manual and I was thinking to myself like you shouldn't have to for something as easy Like there's no screen on it You shouldn't have to be able to do that. You know it. Anyway, I get you. I totally understand. That's a

Casey Fatchett:

I'm still looking for something like that what you're talking about that a device like that that I can use to ingest on to a drive Yeah, like his nar box not good. No And I had just got scammed on Kickstarter from the nar box. No, no, no from a different company that was like anything was as cheap. Mm hmm. Like here's a 500 gig solid state, you know, and you can just plug SD cards into it or whatever, they can copy them into copy them out of the hard drive. And I was like, okay, this sounds good. I will, invest in this just to see, like, if it actually works, I don't need all of the bells and whistles. I just need something that's going to back up stuff. The project was fully funded, has not updated in four months. Like they have not even posted an update and it's just like. Yeah, I think these guys just took the money and disappeared.

Raymond Hatfield:

Oh, dang, that sucks, because they get so excited about being able to fill a need that you have. That's like, here's the pain point. This would be wonderful if somebody could do it.

Casey Fatchett:

Yeah, yeah. And it's like they got like 50 grand and then they just took off.

Raymond Hatfield:

I'm sorry to hear that that is uh, that is rough. That is rough.

Casey Fatchett:

Yeah, it's like Not real happy about it but

Raymond Hatfield:

can I Tell you about one of the worst days that I ever had as a wedding photographer

Casey Fatchett:

Absolutely.

Raymond Hatfield:

have two and one of them I shared actually on the podcast where I I got into a minor accident on the way to a wedding and this wedding was like four hours away and Uh, another car rear ended me, and I, I got out and, you know, it was like checking damage and stuff, took my cameras out of the back of the car, left them on the side of the road, continued driving the, remaining three hours to this wedding, didn't realize that I left my cameras until I had got there and opened up the, the hatch and realized, Oh, there's nothing in here. Like there's, I left my cameras on the side of the road. And because of that accident, I was late for the wedding. there was also a time change. So I was extra late for the wedding. Uh, Real bad day. Real bad day. And then the other one was I once I don't think I've ever talked about this on the podcast because it was it's like really traumatic. I had a stomach bug that just came on during a wedding day so hard and so fast that it was unreal, like I've never had any, any experience like this before or still to this day in my life where I'm perfectly fine. And then within 10 minutes of feeling perfectly fine, I mean, you're like hunched over a toilet cause you feel like so bad, so bad. now, luckily the good part about that was it was right as dinner started. So, not terrible. I had some time to figure out what I was going to do. the bad part was this venue was like, there was like an upstairs and a downstairs, upstairs was kind of like, admin stuff for the venue. there was also like a, a small getting ready room, which nobody really used. but then there were also. Downstairs, the bathroom, which was for all the guests, was being remodeled. Why there was, there was no access to the men's restroom downstairs. There was only women's restroom. And I think everybody was just like, we're just going to use this as like a community bathroom or whatever. but I was terrified because I'm not feeling good. I don't want to, you know, so I went upstairs to use the bathroom, which I'm guessing again, was like the admin bathroom and it was open and it was available. The problem was the bride also didn't want to use the bathroom downstairs. So she went upstairs to go use the bathroom right as. I got done being very sick, like violently sick. and she like knocked on the door and I felt terrible because, bodily fluids don't smell very well, I guess. No, no, it reminds

Casey Fatchett:

me of another story that someone else told me.

Raymond Hatfield:

Oh, no,

Casey Fatchett:

it was pretty bad. Like they ate something at the wedding that was either bad or whatever. It had to

Raymond Hatfield:

use the bathroom and,

Casey Fatchett:

and. It was quite, quite bad. Oh, yeah. Like, it was just like yeah, and they're trying to figure out how to like, actually had to figure out how to try to clean their pants.

Raymond Hatfield:

Oh, no.

Casey Fatchett:

Yeah, at the wedding. At the wedding. At

Raymond Hatfield:

the wedding. that's why you always bring two pairs of pants to a wedding. Always. that's one thing that I did almost from the beginning. and I think it was because one of the, the wedding, Photography podcast that I listened to most was, uh, Photobus X. And, that was one of the things that was shared on there many times. It was how many times people either rip their pants or stain their pants. And I was like, I guess it wouldn't be a bad idea to just bring an extra pair of pants with me. So luckily I always had an extra pair of pants, but I didn't. I didn't soil my pants or anything that day. but there was a gas station just right across the street. So I ran over there real quick and, got some, I don't know, some Tylenol or ibuprofen or Pepto. I don't remember what it was, but like I probably just bought all three and then just took them all at once. Cause I felt, I felt so bad. And I thought to myself, I was like, what am I going to do for the rest of this wedding? Cause I feel legitimately terrible. And I kid you not. It only lasted about like 30 minutes and then it was just over and I never felt anything again so I don't know what happened to me but it was a terrible experience and i'll never forget the look on the bride's face when I opened up the door to let her into the restroom and how bad I felt and i've never talked to her again ever since then I don't even think that she honestly responded to the email that I sent like when I sent their photos not a thanks or anything I really ruined that potential relationship, but, uh, it's good. Well, now we know that we are human and we, uh, we have bad wedding experiences, for those who are listening and maybe they're not, aware. Can you tell us how you got into weddings in the first place? And tell us a little bit about the podcast as well.

Casey Fatchett:

well, I got into weddings, a little over 20 years ago. my friends from college started getting married. And I would go with my film camera and I'd take a couple of rolls of black and white film and I'd shoot, some things I just thought were interesting on the day of when I, while I was there as a guest and I'd blow up a couple of photos to like eight by tens and send them to them as an additional gift for the wedding. People started coming back to me and saying, like, wow, these are better than the guy we hired to do photos. And I was like, Oh, that feels like, Ooh, pat myself on the back. And then I was like, well, maybe I should look into this as something, to do for a living. I was an actor at that point and my photography business was mostly, I had, was doing photos professionally. I was doing headshots and like band photos in New York city. So I, went on Craigslist, cause that's what you did back in the day and looked for people who were looking for a wedding photographer. And I put up an ad saying, like, Hey, I've never shot a wedding before, but I have taken photos. And here's my, my little website, horrible, whatever it's looking thing, you know, from back then and said, if you want to hire somebody, Who hasn't done this before, I am going to be honest about it, but you know, I'm happy to show up and take some photos for you and I did my first wedding. I really fell in love with it. I fell in love with like, there is a performative nature to it. So it felt like theater to me. And since if you have a script and a bit and like how your timeline is going to go, but there's, you're improving a lot throughout the day as well. Yeah, and that's how I sort of like fell into wedding photography and now I've shot like closing in on 800 weddings now, um, getting, you know, no, probably next year I'll hit 800. and, oh yes, I'm also the host of the nerdy photographer podcast. And, yeah, it's just as like a fun way for me to talk to other photographers and like talk about things that I find are important, both in. Yeah. Being, running a photography business, because I think that as creatives, we sort of don't think well about the business aspect of things. We're always sort of like thinking about like, Oh, what's the best way to, capture images and edit stuff and whatever, like, and we don't, there's not a lot of like, focus on, running a business. So I, I, but I try to do that stuff in a, in entertaining way and not just, Write this down here. Five steps you need is just take a fun approach to it. And I, I, Podcast does not take itself so seriously as to, you know, think that, you know, we're the end all be all of Photography and you absolutely must abide by everything that is said on it it's more of a labor of love and wanting to help people grow their photography business.

Raymond Hatfield:

it's a very fun podcast to listen to. Uh, cause as you said, it, it doesn't, take itself too seriously. And I think, that oftentimes in the world of, I guess, business education is, is very predominant. It's very serious. You have to take yourself very seriously. You have to be a professional. You have to wear a tie every day that you show up to your computer and work. So, uh, no, it's lots of, lots of fun. but you have interviewed quite number of photographers, about a lot of things related to weddings, related to business. so. Not only with your insight of, shooting 800 weddings, but also with the guests that you have interviewed as well. I figured, you're the perfect person to chat with today about how to be a bad wedding photographer, because we hear some crazy, crazy things. so how does that sound?

Casey Fatchett:

That sounds absolutely wonderful. I'm stoked. I am really excited to be a part of this. I'm jazzed to be on the show.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah. And, I alluded to it earlier, but we also have a surprise non human guest at the end of this. Who's also going to share some tips with us, that I know is, is going to help as well. So, when we had chatted about this a little bit before, you had shared a few tips with me. and I think the first one was. not bringing any sort of backup gear or, having a, a failure at a wedding and, you have to stop shooting. So it sounded like, you already shared a little bit about this with, uh, with your flash at that wedding. but can you share a little bit more and maybe how we, uh, avoid this issue as well?

Casey Fatchett:

I think that the, the problem that, that happens for a lot of photographers or wedding photographers, especially when they're starting out, is that they don't have a lot of gear necessarily. you know, and cameras are expensive and, it feels like a burden to have, multiple camera bodies or to have all this stuff, but you absolutely need to have a backup. And I've seen, Online forums are a great place to just kind of like drive yourself crazy. Uh, I saw somebody had commented, I think this was on Reddit, where I said, you need to have a backup camera. And someone said, I've got my phone. And Oh, no, no, you do not want to have to be forced into a situation where you're shooting with your phone. I know that there have been numerous, the two main,

Raymond Hatfield:

yeah, people who have done it as, uh, I

Casey Fatchett:

should've, I should've. You know, this wedding entirely on an iPhone, but they don't tell us

Raymond Hatfield:

it was Stephen van Elk. Actually.

Casey Fatchett:

Yes, he did it. There've been other people who did it, but like the doing it on purpose

Raymond Hatfield:

is very different than being forced to do it.

Casey Fatchett:

There's also an element. I don't know if Steve did this, but there were other people taking photos with,

Raymond Hatfield:

yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Casey Fatchett:

With cameras, with other, like pro cameras. And it's just funny, I think the first time I ever saw that camera, who it was posted on one of those big websites, like I shot a wedding on an iPhone and it's like, this is like an iPhone, like four, whatever it was. I don't know. It was a while ago. And like, you see in the backgrounds of some of these shots, like there are three other photographers with cameras. Like you didn't go out there. Don't put your putting yourself out there. It's like, I shot this on an iPhone. I No, you decided to like make this a gimmick and you've got other photographers there who are capturing images that you're going to deliver. But you're like, I'm shooting this with my iPhone. Like you don't trust yourself to do it with just an iPhone. Um, my thing is like, I think that people will get, like I said, worried about having spending money on extra gear, find out where you can rent something, or just pick up a used. body of something like similar, like they're out there. it doesn't have to be, top of the line. You need, just need to have something as a backup in case things go wrong. For me, when I go to a wedding, I have, my two main bodies that I shoot with. I have a backup body as well. And, I have, know, Redundant gear I have enough lenses that I can pick from if something were to happen. If there's a failure, I can, work around that and have other lenses to shoot with. I just, it's when I, I get really. I'm not going to say frustrated. I'm going to say scared for the wedding couples. When I see people saying like, I've got my 24 to 70 and my one camera body and I'm shooting this wedding and I don't have to take anything else with me.

Raymond Hatfield:

Right.

Casey Fatchett:

like it's all

Raymond Hatfield:

pro gear. So why do I need it? Yeah,

Casey Fatchett:

right. Why do I need an extra one? Because things go wrong and it's not always like, Oh, the camera is going to stop working or the lens is going to stop working. It's like somebody could bump into you and break that lens or something. Those are. They'll go, well, that's why you have insurance. Yeah, but his insurance going to replace it at the wedding immediately. Um, I'm a big, I'm team UV filter for that reason. some people are like, I don't, why should I put, a piece of glass between my 3, 000 lens and my camera and my subject? Well, don't buy a cheap UV filter, right? Like I've had it happen where I was at a wedding, Somebody told me recently, they said like, well, if that happened and it busted my glass, I would just get the glass replaced. And I'm like, I've been at a wedding where a worker was carrying a pipe and turned and it went right under the lens hood of my 70 to 200 and smashed the UV filter. And it was hanging on the side, hanging on my cold fast double heart. It wasn't like I was headed up, like I was shooting. He was behind me. He turned. And the pipe went underneath the lens hood and hit that UV filter and smashed it.

Raymond Hatfield:

Oh my gosh.

Casey Fatchett:

I was able to unscrew the UV filter and shoot the rest of the day like that. Like I am team pro pro UV filter. Look into renting this. And if you're just starting out, add this into your pricing so that you're not like, cause I mean, it's not that expensive to rent another body and maybe a lens for the weekend. I use, uh, there's

Raymond Hatfield:

a, camera rental place, close to me, camera lens rentals, dot com, not sponsored or anything. but I always use them and, they've been great, but yeah, I remember thinking to myself how surprisingly affordable it was because I think it was only 60 to rent at the time. It was like a 5D Mark III and, maybe like an 85 something for the day. and that was it. And I thought for 85. Like, could you imagine the alternative and, breaking a lens, breaking a camera, or it just fails. And what do you do? You

Casey Fatchett:

have to, you have to think about your client and what are you doing for your client? If something happens and you are unable to capture more. Images, whatever, you know, a, they're not going to have those photos. They're not like, this is not something you can like just redo. And, it all lands on you. Yeah. Oh, yeah. As, uh, that is the unfortunate nature of the business is that it comes back to you if that goes wrong. And,

Raymond Hatfield:

and maybe you're the kind of person who like, just imagine the embarrassment that you would have to have to go up to a couple and be like, so. My camera's dead. but it's okay. Cause I have an iPhone and I'm just going to take pictures for the rest of the day. Like there's no situation in which they would think to themselves. Oh, okay. Well then that's fine. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So if that's your main motivator, is embarrassment. just think about that and just spend the 60 or 80 or whatever. Get yourself a rental.

Casey Fatchett:

And it's just peace of mind also that you're getting, you'll I don't know. I am an anxious person and the thought of, not being able to perform my duty. Terrifying. Yeah, it terrifies me. Yeah. Now I'm over, way, way, way overcompensated as far as like having the gear there that I need.

Raymond Hatfield:

So, then just quickly, what would you say? Like if somebody's shooting, like if they're within their first, I don't know, five, 10 weddings, what's kind of like the minimum.

Casey Fatchett:

I always say, 24 to 70, seven to

Raymond Hatfield:

250. And then two camera bodies should be good.

Casey Fatchett:

Yeah. I think that that, like I could, I think at this point in my career, I could probably shoot an entire wedding with those still and feel comfortable with it might not necessarily artistically get the things that I want to at this point, but I think that you give yourself a lot of options, especially if you're still just starting out like those nifty 50, 24 to 70, and 70 to 200 will cover 98 percent of what you need. You know, especially if you're just, you're starting out. That's The golden triangle.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah. Right. Perfect. All right. So I got one here. and I'm interested to hear your thoughts on this. And I wrote down, assuming that you're Henry Cartier Bresson, right, you know, and think that, everything that you create is gold and think that the couple is hiring you for your artistic excellence, and then therefore being kind of closed off to taking any sort of suggestions, from the couple. Have you seen this before? No. No.

Casey Fatchett:

I have not experienced it in person. I have definitely seen it, online or actually in, in a workshop. Really? Once where somebody was like, this person was just saying like, they're not hiring you to just like, they're hiring you to be the photographer and be the artist. And I was like, uh,

Raymond Hatfield:

not always,

Casey Fatchett:

yeah, like when we raised my hand here, they're trying to, they want to get with what they want. and while there is certainly something to be said for your artistic eye, and normally people will say like, oh, I really like how you see things to me, even when they're coming in for, their first meeting or call or whatever. I always ask, like, what was it about my work that you. Saw and got you interested in contacting me. but I feel like weddings are a very collaborative experience. while there are times where I will put my two cents in and say like, yeah, I don't know if you want to do that. if that's like plausible and, there's a difference between managing expectations, which I think is something you really have to do as a wedding photographer because sometimes people will be like, I want this and you're like, Hmm, I recall like, actually, it's funny that you mentioned that I was at a wedding and, it was very fancy venue and we had a lot of time before the ceremony for photos with the wedding party. And I had already talked to the couple about what they wanted, what was important to them and with the style of the photos. If we were sort of in the middle of doing photos with the wedding party and one of the bridesmaids says, let's do a Vogue shoot. and I was like, excuse me, what do you mean? She's like, like when they have those, like any Leibovitz. fold out like covers of, Vogue. And I was just like, we don't have the gear for that. Like I don't have the lighting equipment, set up for that. I'm would need, I would need more people here. She's just discounting

Raymond Hatfield:

the amount of work that any Leibovitz puts into a Vogue cover that

Casey Fatchett:

That I'm just going to throw that out there, you know, be able to put that together. We have 10 minutes. Um yeah, just like we'll have to do a Vogue shoot and I was just like, uh, no, it's not going to happen. That's not, we're not going to be able to do that. But I think that like, that's something you need to discuss beforehand with couples. Like, part of my process is to ask a lot of questions and I think that that's really important to ask a lot of questions going into it because. You get a better sense of what a couple likes and how you can make your style fit what they like Yes it's like that there's a difference between just going in and saying like I know the best I have one of those Things of like this style of photographer because there are a lot of them out there It's the people who just want to like put I do my same five shots every wedding that that type of talk like me pose everybody the same way and doing this, whatever, like we're going to get these five shots and they're very beautiful photos, but do you think that all of your couples want to have the same five pictures as everybody else? And it's just sort of like, maybe get to know them a little bit better and find things that express their personality and their uniqueness. And what's unique about their wedding day, finding things in there that, that help bring out their aesthetic and personality and make it blend with yours. Yeah, that's my personal approach.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah, I've always felt the same way where it's like at a wedding you are there to support the wedding not take it over, I guess, which I think a lot of wedding photographers, like early on feel like that's their job. And I think that it is because, they think, I'm being hired for my artistic eye or whatever. So my input is very important. And I had seen once in a, I don't remember where it was. Maybe it was Reddit. Maybe it was another forum or something where somebody had asked. They're like, I'm shooting a wedding. it's at like 2 p. m. in the afternoon, very bright, summer day outside. how do I avoid things like, overexposed, sky and stuff. And somebody suggested, obviously, they helped out with the sky recommendation, but then they said, also ask the bride to wear maybe like a cream colored dress. And I thought to myself, who are you? To tell a bride what

Casey Fatchett:

to wear,

Raymond Hatfield:

what to wear on her wedding day. Yeah, exactly. And for something so special as a dress, right? Like imagine that it's her grandmother's dress and you come in and you're like, that's not gonna work. Like how I'm terrible. It would be, I'm, it's

Casey Fatchett:

just not gonna be able to shoot your wedding because you didn't choose the right color dress. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Raymond Hatfield:

the advice that some photographers have is, uh, you just gotta realize you're not Picasso. you're not at that level, you're there to, to support everything.

Casey Fatchett:

And the thing is, even if you were like , there's an element of, like I said before, you're working with these people and they're not just like mannequins that you're arranging how you want. It's like, this is a. These are living human beings and there's a lot of emotion and things caught up in a wedding day that you, have to navigate as well as not just, about more than just taking the pictures too. It's like, and I think that that sort of attitude, I don't know, think it is a pitfall that's easy to kind of fall into when you're starting out. Like, once you know enough to be dangerous. think it's the like, you have enough skill and enough ability to like, think that, you know, everything that you need to know, that you can fall into that. I've seen people who should know better who behave in similar ways. yeah, you have to work with people. You have to work. This is definitely a collaborative art form,

Raymond Hatfield:

right? Right. Okay. So then the next thing that I wrote down is that, so that was, assuming taking no input from your couples, right? That's a bad thing to do. The next bad thing that I wrote down is taking too much input from your couples, for every single decision. This can be a bad thing. Oh

Casey Fatchett:

yeah. Yeah. you have to have the confidence. Like I said, I think the biggest thing what this is an issue is managing expectations because like I had a bride who was still in the chair getting her makeup done. It was on Pinterest for photos Yeah, looking for photo ideas and shoot She's like, Oh, what about this one? This is great. And I'm like, those people aren't on a beach You're getting married in New York City

Raymond Hatfield:

in a hotel In the basement of a hotel. Yeah

Casey Fatchett:

We've already talked about like what we don't give like put put the phone down Yeah, start enjoying your day and not like there you can you don't You have to say yes to everything that I think that that and that's, the, you find a balance and you collaborate with, with them, but you also have to know what is going to work for them and how, I've had so many people say like, Oh, we're going to, it's especially a thing in, in the city, like knowing how long it's going to take to get to a location, especially on a weekend. like when traffic is going to be bad or if I think they're kind of balancing all that stuff together and I will have people say like, okay, we're going to start and then people who aren't in New York, it might be difficult to visualize this, but just very quickly, they'll say we're starting the ceremonies in midtown Manhattan. Then we want to go over to Brooklyn afterwards, drive over the Brooklyn bridge, do some photos so we can see the Brooklyn bridge in the Manhattan skyline. And we're going to do all our wedding party photos and photos of us up there. Then we're going to drive back into Manhattan for, like, we're going to go to Central Park and get some photos there. And then we're going to, yeah, they're going to do Times Square and this stuff. And then we're going to go. Like, then we're going back out to Brooklyn to where the, like the reception venue is, which is like, yeah, this is not going to work. Your timing, even if you did all the Manhattan stuff first, man, like each of those things, like, and I run into this a lot when it comes to city weddings and like people like, oh, I want to do Central Park. And I'm like, well, what part of Central Park? Because. It determines how far you have to, there's no driving through and just like parking and like jumping out, you have to walk to these locations, like, and if you have to park somewhere, there's no real parking anywhere nearby. If you've got a bus, your party bus, whatever, it's like driving up and it can maybe stop and like let people out or whatever, but then we have to walk to that location or like getting to those are like, that is, I think the biggest, input that I necessarily have regularly where, where I tell people not know. But like we need to work on what's the most important things that you want here and like really pair this down to what is feasible to do, because I think if you just start saying yes to everything that they say, you can end up like in a world of trouble because they're, they're looking to you to be the professional and know what can be done and sometimes you'll get like, like I said, I'm sure you've experienced this where people like come up with their like, oh, this is my idea board for my wedding. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love this photo. I love this. I want to get something like this. And I'm not really, when somebody shows me a picture that someone else took and says like, yeah, I want to get something like this. I think that's fine. I don't really care that we're like, we'll use it as inspiration. I'm not going to recreate somebody else's picture, but I am going to, try to make it my own and give you something similar that reflects who the couple is. Of course. And not just. remake something, but yeah, you need to learn to say no. I think for,

Raymond Hatfield:

for one of my first weddings, I remember asking, my couple, and I think that this came down to, just trying to provide like a good service, right? Like I wanted to prove that I was knowledgeable in wedding photography and that I could, receive what it was that, that they wanted. And so I asked a couple. questions like, what are your favorite colors? What are, you know, just all of these things. So in the hopes that then I could make the wedding super personalized for them. but I even asked them questions like, I would show them different edits of photos and be like, do like A or B, A or B. And then from there I'd go, you know, like the eye test or whatever. again, it was in good nature to want to make this wedding the best and most personal that it can be for them. But, It was just such a terrible idea because now it sucked all of the joy that I found in photography out because now I'm literally just the person pressing a button, because I get to provide no artistic input. and I just have to follow their list of instructions and yeah, real bad.

Casey Fatchett:

I always like, like to say to couples, like, if you love my work, set me free. That's great. Yeah, I'm going to, I'm going to work with you. You can trust me. and you got to build that trust, but like you can trust me to capture. Yes. You don't have to send me saying like, get the first kiss at the ceremony. I'm going to shoot that. I'm going to, I'm going to take pictures of you walking down the aisle. Like those things. Yes. Like standard. I always tell people if there's something that you think is outside of the norm or there are people that you want photos of. Those are the sort of questions that I hear things are you doing some sort of exit? Is there some sort of special part of the ceremony that I need to know about? Like there was one time where it's been like, Oh, we're going to do have like a sword fight in the middle of the, first dance.

Raymond Hatfield:

You're like, thank you for telling me I needed to know this. It

Casey Fatchett:

was a Renaissance, it was a Renaissance fair wedding. and there's like, yeah, okay. Need to know about that. That's great. Like I need to, those are the things that I, Help me take better pictures because I'm prepared. but there's also like things where I might say like, Hey, when you're staging this, try to put it here because it's going to look better. Like the background is going to be a better or the photos than, if you're doing it facing this way. So those are the things we, you know, we work together. It's still a collaboration. but yeah, if you get too much into saying yes to everybody, then you, yeah, I, I did some similar things. Like when you're talking about like the different edits, I assume I remember like in, when I was starting out, the vintage look was real popular, like the sort of like

Raymond Hatfield:

sepia, a little bit,

Casey Fatchett:

sepia on the

Raymond Hatfield:

edges.

Casey Fatchett:

No, not that I never did selective color. but what I'm talking about is like, it's sort of like, it has old filmy look to it. But it's like kind of like blue and orange tones or whatever those sorts of, but like muted and like, and I would tell people like, okay, because I was like, I have like four different Photoshop actions. This is before like three sets worth. Thing.

Raymond Hatfield:

that was hundreds of dollars worth of Photoshop actions, by the way.

Casey Fatchett:

Yes, it was yeah, and so you want to use them and they'd be like, okay So which of these four do you prefer which using this best and they tell me whatever and then I'd look and I'd be like Oh, yeah, that doesn't work with the photo It doesn't look at this Shoot yourself in the foot. Yeah, you don't it doesn't work with every picture So,

Raymond Hatfield:

so how do you get over that?

Casey Fatchett:

Get over to saying yes to people or

Raymond Hatfield:

I guess realizing who you are as a I don't know artist for lack of a better term.

Casey Fatchett:

Mmm, that's tough I think that that is probably one of the tougher things that you're gonna have to do no matter what type of photography you're in is a having the confidence in your own skills and your knowledge of what's going on, or that if you don't know, and I think this is the thing that people really should pay attention to. If you don't know, find out, research, ask questions, tell people, tell the couple, like, listen, I don't know about this. Like somebody says like, oh, we're going to do a skydiving, like we're going to skydive. You're going to come with us and you're going to take pictures while you're skydiving. And you're just like, yeah, that sounds awesome. Then you're like, wait, I need a. I can't just like hold my camera. Right. I'm skydiving. You're like, like you take that moment and be like, listen, we need to, I'm happy to put in the work and research this and figure out whether or not this is doable. One of the things that I think is, this is very important is when it comes to people's safety, your safety and the couple's safety, there will be times when people were like, let's do a photo, on this particular like location, that is not safe. and. If you've paid attention to the photography world long enough, these stories crop up all the time about like how there was one that was really horrible. I remember where like the groom fell into a river and drowned like on his wedding day because they were trying to get this photo like on a rock in the middle of a river next to like a waterfall and like he slipped off in the photographer was like, Oh yeah, we can totally get that. Like you have to have the sense like, yes, stand up and say, Listen, this is not safe. It's not safe for you. yeah, you have to be willing to say that I either know better or that I am not sure, but I don't think this is feasible. It's hard. It is really like it is one of the harder things because, I mean, even. like I said, almost 800 weddings and 22 plus years into this, there's still times when the, the imposter syndrome kicks in and I'm like, Hmm, do I really know best? Um,

Raymond Hatfield:

who am I to tell this couple what they can and can't do on their wedding day? If they want to go stand on a rock, what am I to, you know, to say no.

Casey Fatchett:

That sort of thing. Like I am very confident, but there are some times where people say like, Oh, we want to get this photo. And I'm like, Hmm, it's not my personal taste. who am I to tell them I don't like jumping photos, uh, yeah, or let's pose like there's a Tyrannosaurus Rex following me. and I've done a few of those like over the years, just because like, it's you want to do this. Like that's, that's your thing. And, I don't feel artistically compromised for having done that, but there are, I have put my foot down on things that weren't safe. People wanted to like go into a building that was like, oh we can just slide through this fence and go in here I'm like, no

Raymond Hatfield:

Fence for a reason. Yeah,

Casey Fatchett:

right like these things are like there's there are warning signs literally in some of these places like for reasons

Raymond Hatfield:

okay. So next one, let's see you sent in, another one here. And I thought this one was good because, we live in a world now where, lighting is relatively easy and it is cheap and you can go on Amazon and spend a hundred dollars and get a really good quality, light. You know, if you're just getting started and ring lights are pretty popular. So the allure of being able to just bring a battery powered ring light, and use that as your sole source of light throughout a wedding seems awesome.

Casey Fatchett:

In theory, maybe someone who's unaware, like, This was actually a story that, came to me from a friend of mine. He said, you're not going to believe this, what's going on with his wedding. and he sent me a picture and I was like, Oh, he's just doing that. Like the photographer's just doing that during portraits. Right. No.

Raymond Hatfield:

A ring light. What was mounted to the camera?

Casey Fatchett:

Like he holding it.

Raymond Hatfield:

Oh, he had like a boombo with a ring light. No,

Casey Fatchett:

no, no, no. Handheld ring light and camera all day.

Raymond Hatfield:

Oh, So difficult

Casey Fatchett:

and yeah, so, so, so difficult and I think back that made me think back to like, I don't know if you remember like Orbis flash and like the Z flash attachments that you could have to make a ring flash like out of your like on camera flash. Yeah, I still have, I think I still have my Orbis flash.

Raymond Hatfield:

They were relatively small though. They were like six or nine inches, right? The yeah, and it was

Casey Fatchett:

just, and it just, you could get that ring flash. Look. with the flash from, your, with your on camera flash, your regular speed light. but this guy was carrying like a battery powered, like ring light that people will use to do TikToks or Instagram reels or whatever. And I, my guess is that he thought like, well, people really love this ring light look and so let's do that for weddings. yeah. no, it doesn't look good because the issue there is like, you need to know how different types of light work. And like an led ring light does not cast light very far, right? those sorts of things. And like when you're learning and I was, what is it? The man trying to run the, there's a concept and like diminishing amount of light output, the inverse square law. Yes, that is exactly it. Trying to think of the words, the inverse square law, which if you're doing any sort of lighting, you need to kind of understand and it's. One of those things, whenever I try to explain it, I feel like I'm turning into, a beautiful mind. There's like, yes, over the place in my head. he's a different amount, the power of light. And I was watching, who was it was Rob Hall. He was doing a video about, there's a lot of videos, but lights, gear and, techniques. And he was saying, I mean, like led is not nearly as powerful as flash. Like, yeah, great for like video and like having a constant light source. Like, but you know, it's not good at like capturing the, it does not have enough. Output. I think he was talking about like a, basically one of those like light wands.

Raymond Hatfield:

Oh yeah.

Casey Fatchett:

It has like, it's a 20 watt or whatever, led super bright, super bright. 20 Watts. Yeah. Yeah. 20 Watts.

Raymond Hatfield:

My light bulb in my house is 60 Watts. And, uh, you know, exactly.

Casey Fatchett:

And, I mean, the wattage is not necessarily the whatever, watt seconds, but like, it turns out to be like, whatever, like, regular speed light, it's like a six or an eight, like, low power on a regular speed light. And you're like, Oh, okay. And if you want to do things, if you're like, if you're shooting a wedding and one of the things that happens at weddings is like dancing. People are moving around. If you want to get like photos of people moving around and you want to get a freeze that action, you really need to use flash. I think one of the things about lighting when you're starting out as a photographer is it can seem really overwhelming, but it doesn't have to be. And my suggestion is get yourself a speed light, practice with it, get used to bouncing it and things like that, especially if you're shooting weddings. You're gonna like you, it's another tool to add to the toolbox. I think a lot of people fall victim to I'm a natural light photographer. and the reason that they stick to that so hard is because they're unsure about flash or think that flash is going to look bad. Though there is a trend in this sort of like bad flash just coming back. I don't know if you've seen these. No,

Raymond Hatfield:

just like straight on camera blasted at the couple. It's

Casey Fatchett:

becoming a like we've kind of burned through that weird color grading And, out of focus trends last year. And now, now the trend is sort of like, and it was starting last year. Now the trend is like, it's sort of like very flat, direct flash. so yeah, that's becoming a thing. And then, you know what, that's really easy to do.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah. That's about as easy as it gets.

Casey Fatchett:

Yeah. I mean, I just, I put like a little diffuser on the end of my flash and just point it directly at my couple, if you want that. The problem is,

Raymond Hatfield:

is, three years from now, five years from now, 10 years from now, 20 years from now, when these couples are looking at their wedding photos, they're gonna look so dated, it's not good. And that's, that's an issue that I find a lot with, with wedding photographers is that there are trends within the industry that people just go nuts for and they do look good. In that moment, you look at that photo and you're like, that's a good photo, but as a whole, maybe as the whole wedding, it doesn't work, and then it just, falls out of date so quickly that the couple is going to realize that when they look at their photos in the future, in the same way that we look at maybe our parents prom photos or their wedding photos, and we think, whoa, what happened here,

Casey Fatchett:

Yeah, there's something to be said for like, you can't change the fashion of the times or whatever, but my goal has been, I think, since about year five, when I was doing weddings, I made a very distinct decision to not let trends rule my business. whether that be an editing style or like particular photos, like I mentioned, like jumping photos or the running from a T Rex or a UFO shot, like, I'm not just like chasing every trend out there because try to capture things in a timeless manner, but more specifically as it happened, like looks like how it happened, I have created my own presets that I edit my photos with. But it's not so removed from reality. I want people to like, look back on it and like still be in that moment. So that, that, same thing, like 20 years from now, whatever, they're not looking back on it. It's something I actually say to couples when they, when they ask me what my style is and I say, it's, yes, I don't want you to look at these in 20 years and go like, wow, that was so 2023. Yeah. yeah. Oh, wow. Why did we do that? It looks like an Instagram filter. yeah, it takes. And I think that, it's very easy to succumb to trends because trends can get you traction, in some ways, get people to like, see your work, but there's a way of like, I'm not trying to think of the word specifically a way of balancing how your approach to marketing yourself with what you're providing for your client. I've found that, reels on Instagram, like creating a reel is different than like, I'm going to just, use filters and things to provide, valued content value, add content, whatever, like, as opposed to like, just either it's something you can laugh at or it's something you're going to learn from.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah, it's either, what is it, educational or entertaining.

Casey Fatchett:

Right. Yeah. and as opposed to like, I'm just doing this because everybody's doing it and that gets, oh yeah, I'm just going to hop on the trend so that I can get more views.

Raymond Hatfield:

Like, could you imagine being the photographer who like, every wedding, you're known for doing that T Rex shot and, uh, because people aren't really doing that photo anymore, people aren't going to come coming to you after six months looking for that photo. It's going to get old real quick. So try to come up with something that is just a bit more timeless.

Casey Fatchett:

Like in the first one, the first person who did it, and then I find it very, uh, Sasha, I can't remember his name, is a New York photographer. He had done a photo where like this couple was on the street in New York City and Zach Braff was like walking past them and looking at them and he's like, Hey, like makes a face and like points at them like, Oh, yeah, whatever. Yeah, and it blew up and like everything went viral. And, he's in his response was Sasha Reinking, I think maybe, is the photographer's name, but he was saying like, how much work did you get from that? It's like zero,

Raymond Hatfield:

right?

Casey Fatchett:

Right. I didn't get any jobs because of that. I think probably the same thing could be said for the first person who did that T Rex photo. Like it got a lot of attention, but it didn't like it doesn't give you a steady income for a long time. Like you said, the, after. Six months or a year or so of doing those, like, people aren't looking for that shot. You're looking for the next trend and are you just going to chase trends your entire career? I think that's a dangerous road to go down to be, go down because you're going to end up feeling like in five years, like, what, what am I doing? And who am I? And you're not going to like feel like any sort of, agency in your photography career. If all you're doing is like following trends, you can innovate, emulate or imitate. Thanks. I did not come up with that, but, uh, so like you can find a new thing to do. You can come up with a new thing and maybe like, I, there are times when I do, I've done some like shoots that, I planned that are like styled shoots. And some of them were, I laughed myself and go like, that was way ahead of its time. It took chances. Like I did something like so different. Like I did a photo shoot. of Bride and Bridesmaids dresses on aerial artists, aerialists on the silks and the rings doing the stuff. I had never seen it done anywhere before and nobody was interested in publishing it because they had never seen it. Like it's also like, you know, like, because there was not, there was not enough interest I guess in that, but I like, I, there's some of my favorite photos. But it was just like taking a chance and like you, you want to innovate something and be the first to do something, do things that people haven't done before. Yeah. I've tried to stay in the emulate and innovate phase as opposed to imitating and just doing what other people do. Because like I said, even when you do that, you'll find yourself if you stay in this for a long time in photography, not just wedding photography. You stay in it long enough, there are gonna be times when you go like, hmm, just your brain is going to turn around and be like, what, what am I doing?

Raymond Hatfield:

You're not going to emulate putting a ring light on your camera and walk around Use that.

Casey Fatchett:

No, but you know what? It might do if somebody's like really into like fashiony looking stuff. I used to do like a photo booth that had a ring light on it.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah.

Casey Fatchett:

That gave this big, very fashion shoot look to it. Yeah. I mean, that was, and if somebody likes that sort of look, but I mean, I don't think that I'm going to be doing that very flat on camera flash.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah. Well, I mean, that's the thing is that like everything is a tool. Right for something like I'm not going to use, I don't know, a hammer to, this is a terrible example. I don't know. Uh, you know, put a install a shower in my house, you know, I'm going to use the right tool for the job, but that doesn't mean that a hammer is not a useful tool. Just understand its uses and when to use it. all right. Next one that we got here is, I got two. So I kind of went both ways with this, right? So for the first one, it was, not taking any advice from your couple. And then it was taking too much advice from your couple. So this next one, it's kind of the same. It is worrying too much about image quality versus the other components of the image. Of a wedding day, because I, I feel like oftentimes, when it comes to shooting a wedding, one thing that holds people back is that they feel like, Oh, I don't have the right gear. I have to have all of tons of stuff, all the best, you know, L lenses, if you shoot Canon or whatever. otherwise it's not going to work out and, it can. Right.

Casey Fatchett:

Yeah. And the thing is like, limitation. I don't tell people like, you know, like one of the ways you learn, one of the best ways to learn, I, I find it's like, and I just did an interview where we, we kind of discussed this a little bit on, one of my episodes recently, limit yourself, go out and practice and say like, I'm only going to use this lens and I'm only going to use like these settings. Like I'm, however much you choose, like going out and practicing, like, I'm only going to shoot at F5 with a 50 millimeter in that ISO whatever. And like, then you have to like find the shots where the light works for those settings and things like that. Like, so you can really have to think. And so that when you find yourself in these situations on the day of a wedding, like you don't need to like, Oh, I got to switch lenses, or I got to go get different gear to capture this moment. Like I can do it here. Yeah. I just, I know what I'm gonna do. And you can see those things more clearly because you test yourself outside. I think that one of the things that people don't do is just shoot outside of, right. and I can, I get it because sometimes it feels like work to do it outside of getting paid. And the funny thing is like doing it outside of getting paid feels like work. no, do out and shoot. Just like, shoot whatever, pleases you or whatever. But like, give yourself limitations. I, I also used to do a thing where I referred to it as, since I started out with film limiting myself to 24 exposures or 36 exposure to tell a story. And like, people go like, Oh, so I'll pick out my 24. No, no, it's from start to finish. You only expose like the, the shutter only clicks 24 or 36 times. And that's it. That's all you like. That's all you get to tell your story. And it kind of blows the mind of like younger photographers today. Right. Like about that sort of limitation.

Raymond Hatfield:

That would be the next TikTok thing where people, uh, discover the cameras used to only be able to take 24, 36 photos. Yeah.

Casey Fatchett:

Well, I mean, like film has always sort of like been like, there are rediscovering film. but it's that, yeah, I think widespread, like people who don't shoot film or have never shot film. I don't really get that sort of, when I started out, I had to carry two camera bodies when I was shooting film because they need to have two different film speeds just in case. like he didn't get to, you can just dial in a different, ISO. I don't know what you do. I don't think you need to feel like, Oh, I have to have every little bit of gear to get good photos. Find out what you can do with what you have. And that's another part of it. I go out and play with it outside of work and just. Get really comfortable with the gear that you have and know how to use it.

Raymond Hatfield:

One thing that I like to do for a while, until it started getting cold again. so last year was I would challenge myself to go out every single month and do like my own, like solo photo walk, I guess, but I'd always give myself some sort of challenge, before going out. And oftentimes I would find, that I would try to give myself a limitation such as, uh, like I can only shoot at F8, just so that when you go out and then I would, I would always stack that I could only take 36 photos as well. Otherwise, cause I could be out there for hours, you know, trying to find, trying to take more and more photos. but yeah, it really is interesting to, when you're used to shooting it, I don't know 1. 8 because you just got that nifty 50 and then you force yourself to shoot at f8 and figure out how do you still make a photo look interesting and compelling with so much in focus Like what are the other elements that you can incorporate into a photograph to make this photo? You have

Casey Fatchett:

to think about your composition a lot more.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah. Yeah

Casey Fatchett:

at that point like in that You know, if you don't have all L series or whatever, like, you know, 1. 2 or 1. 4 lenses and you're shooting at 5. 6, whatever you've got, you have to adapt and like you're shooting, you really have to like, be careful about your composition and how you're, what you're putting in the frame. It's not going to get blurred out and the so I think that that's, there's part of me that considers like the yearning yearns for that being put in those, that sort of situation. Sometimes I find myself guilty of at times, using the gear, like leaning too heavily on the gear,

Raymond Hatfield:

right? Right. And

Casey Fatchett:

not, not always, but like, there are times when I do it and I go like, Oh, okay. I was just sort of like allowing the camera and the lens do the work in that scenario. Like I kind of set it up like how I wanted it to be, but then I, sort of put it on cruise control for five or 10 minutes there.

Raymond Hatfield:

I think we've all been there, So it's kind of like when you first get started in photography where you feel like photography is. Just getting a photo that is properly exposed and somewhat in focus, you're like, I did it, it doesn't even matter what the subject matter is or the moment or the light like it's properly exposed and it's in focus. That's the photo, but it's not until you realize if you can walk into a room or anywhere and get a photo that is properly exposed and, relatively in focus. That's when photography starts, it's all those other elements that you start to bring together to create a photo. And it's the same way with gear as well. It's like when you first get started and you think, oh, photography is having the pro gear, having all those great lenses. It's not until you actually get to that point and you have those that you realize, Oh, actually these really don't mean much at all. And I could, still get whatever I need with half the amount of gear. And that's a hard thing to understand.

Casey Fatchett:

Yeah, I think that there are certainly like, when I go to a wedding, I pack things, mostly I pack a lot of stuff. Most of the time I have redundancy. but I have like certain lenses that I use for a few detail shots. My macro lens, I'm only really using that for like rings and some flower shots and things like that. And then I just goes back in my bag and I'm like, yeah, but it does give me capture, like I capture things in a way that I want to, for those particular images. That's like, do I really need it? No. Does it help me get, you know, realize my artistic vision for like these dozen shots out of a whole wedding day? Yes, it does. But you know, if I had to, I was forced to take it out of my bag, absolutely good. I just do things slightly differently.

Raymond Hatfield:

So then honest question, because I was, I was there as well. It was hard for me to understand why I invested in a macro lens when I was only using it for, less than a dozen shots. why not use extension tubes?

Casey Fatchett:

I have those too.

Raymond Hatfield:

You have both. You use both. Yeah.

Casey Fatchett:

I don't use the extension tubes as much anymore. I do it for like really close. This is just for like personal stuff. flowers. I love taking pictures of flowers. Ah. and getting like really close up on, the interior of a flower. yeah. so that's what I use those for now. I used to use them at weddings. Occasionally, you can run into some issues with, focusing issues. And if you don't really know how to adjust your, extension tubes, I've found sometimes they were a little, this is a little too much work to get those photos. Like I didn't have a lot of time for these pictures. so it was just easier to have a macro lens. And the thing is I have like a hundred, a hundred millimeter. Macro. And if I absolutely needed to, if like something happened to one of my other ones, is that that could be a portrait lens I needed to on the wedding day. There's other things that it can do that I could use it for. If I absolutely needed it. You can't with

Raymond Hatfield:

extension tubes. There's no double use.

Casey Fatchett:

Only good for one thing.

Raymond Hatfield:

Only good for one thing. Only good for one. And then that kind of brings us to the next one here, which is, the exact opposite, not worrying enough about. again, this is one of those things where, when I had first got started, I thought that it was the camera body that was everything and that the lens could be the afterthought, So you invest the 2, 500 into a camera, like the brand new 5D Mark III, like you get so excited, but you're still using the, the 50 millimeter 1. 8 that was 90, you know, 98 bucks. Or even doing things like just keeping your shutter speed too low, just so that you can keep your ISO low as well. And again, just, just worrying about those, those sorts of things.

Casey Fatchett:

Yeah. I think that you, man, I always tell people now, like invested in the glass, I've got lenses that I've had for 15 years that I still use. Never had an issue with it. I spent, I invested the money in it. And, continue to use them. They work great. That investment has paid off, but you know, you go through cameras. If you're a professional

Raymond Hatfield:

every few years,

Casey Fatchett:

yeah. Like every three, four years, you're like, either you're upgrading or you're, sometimes cameras, like I said, I had an issue with a camera just dying on me. you get to the shutter, especially in DSLRs. you've reached the shutter limit. Um, mirrorless cameras, read it, have a shutter reading. I can't

Raymond Hatfield:

remember, but it's like 500, 000. Like it's, it's a

Casey Fatchett:

ridiculous amount higher. It's like twice as much as like a

Raymond Hatfield:

DSLR.

Casey Fatchett:

sometimes you reach the end of the life of a camera. Well, before you would reach the end of the life of a, a lens lens. I think about the number of cameras I've had over the years versus like, like I said, the lenses that I have that I bought when I was like six cameras ago. I still use now. I think that, yeah, always invest in the glass first. I think that yes, you can fall victim to like, Oh, not thinking that you can do like creating a quality image is not, it does at times require better lighting or better gear or like, when I think that people like to get effusive about the specs. Cameras and people, they go, oh, it can go to 128,000 iso. It's like, oh, great, but you should not be shooting.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah. It's not practical at all.

Casey Fatchett:

It's not practical.

Raymond Hatfield:

a Ferrari can go like, 250 miles an hour. You shouldn't be going that fast on the roads.

Casey Fatchett:

Right? I mean, there's, if you, there may be like one, you might own that Lamborghini, and like one time you get to go to a track and get it up going pretty fast. Mm-Hmm. and that's the one time of owning it, that you get to go that fast. yeah, it doesn't mean you need to bump your ISO to 128,000 Yeah. On a regular basis. And honestly, like there have been a couple of times when I've gone up to 30 2K on my iso, but the thing is you start to, you do start to lose image quality there, like in, it's not so much anymore, but there was a time when she got up to like two 4,000 ISO and like everything just started getting muddy. You've lost color depth.

Raymond Hatfield:

Started looking painterly.

Casey Fatchett:

Yeah, painterly. That's a good term for it. Yeah, you lose, so knowing what your limitations are and what can help you get a better better image, whether it's a lens, the camera body, the lighting, I always find that one of the things that the most often overlooked in that triangle is lighting. Mm hmm. Even if you have kind of janky here. Really great lighting. You can capture a pretty good image.

Raymond Hatfield:

That's why you can take a great photo on an iPhone, you know? Like, technically,

Casey Fatchett:

an

Raymond Hatfield:

iPhone is terrible as far as specs go, right? Like, teeny tiny sensor, terrible lens, horrible ISO performance, but if you get some good light, You're going to give yourself a great photo.

Casey Fatchett:

There was a series of like shot on iPhone. they definitely had those boards

Raymond Hatfield:

and

Casey Fatchett:

yeah, billboards. It was all throughout the New York city too. And like subway stations, it had these huge posters and I'd walk by them and I'd look at this and I go, you know what the thing is, I noticed they were all black and whites. and second was that, like that there was great lighting and every single one of those whether it was outdoors, like landscape, whatever it was. The one consistent factor was a fantastic lighting. Sure, I can shoot something on an iPhone, but I need the light to do it.

Raymond Hatfield:

And that, that just goes across everything. It's not just iPhone, like to create a great photo. Yeah. Any great light, any great light.

Casey Fatchett:

That's, it's almost as if. The term photography. Yeah. Something about painting with lights. Yeah.

Raymond Hatfield:

It's funny. Well, I think it is time, that we come to the, uh, the fun part of the show where we're going to do some sort of lighting around. Yeah, we have a special guest. And it is, everybody's favorite AI chat tool, ChatGPT. You're not going to believe this. But I asked chat GPT, the sentient mind over there. I said, what are some ways that a wedding photographer can ruin a couple's wedding day? Are you ready to hear what I said?

Casey Fatchett:

Sure.

Raymond Hatfield:

Okay. so the first one was. it was solid. It was being late or just not showing up.

Casey Fatchett:

Oh yeah, absolutely.

Raymond Hatfield:

You don't want to do

Casey Fatchett:

that. Ding, ding, winner. Yeah. You have time. I always aim to be, I always aim to be half an hour early because traffic or anything. I mean, I'm like, you had an accident. I've been in a car accident on the way to a wedding. I always aim to be there early because who knows traffic or whatever. Be on time.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah.

Casey Fatchett:

Yeah. Not showing up.

Raymond Hatfield:

If you're there 30 minutes early though, like do you go in the 30 minutes early or you just hang out in the car?

Casey Fatchett:

I will scout around and look around and like see stuff and like, I will say hi and I'll be like, I'll start. And am I in my time or I might start a little early. I don't know how I'm feeling, but I mean, I tend to use that time, especially if I'm driving a long distance, I could go to the bathroom or like, sort of like get my gear together and all those things. So I'm ready to get started. if I get there early and then, but then sometimes you, because of whatever reason you don't. Managed to get there on time.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah. Last thing you want to do is ruin a bathroom before the bride can go in there. Yeah, I understand. Yeah. You want to use those gas station bathrooms before you show up to the wedding. okay. So next thing chat GPT said was, the number two way that a wedding photographer can ruin a couple's day is to be rude or disrespectful to the wedding party and its guests. And I was like, that is really insightful. Chat GPT. Good job. So things like not interrupting the ceremony, disrupting intimate moments between the couple. Which I was trying to think about, I guess that would be, you know, just, uh,

Casey Fatchett:

if they're like off by themselves, like that's one of those things that, you'll see people like talking or having a moment together. And I'm always like, I will take a picture of that, but I'm not going to go over there and be like, Ooh, this is great. Uh,

Raymond Hatfield:

yeah. I

Casey Fatchett:

get a closeup shot of that. Like, this is why I have my 70 to 200 or whatever, lens so that I can get a shot of this from the distance. without having to be in their faces.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah. Even as a wedding photographer, like you're kind of given a free pass to like ask couples to kiss in front of you and like watch, which is weird. Like I'll admit right for the most of the public, but I'm never going to tell a couple like kiss harder, you know, like, so I'm going to let them enjoy that intimate moment themselves. Yeah,

Casey Fatchett:

actually, one of the prompts that I use really not kiss harder. It's, it's, uh, you know, like, Hey, you know, can we get a kiss? And like now think about how weird it is to have someone you don't really know that well telling you to make out. it's usually when I use it, the engagement session, cause it's our first time.

Raymond Hatfield:

Right. Right. Typically it's like somewhere kind of, at least for me, it's like nature y. So like I'll hide behind a bush. I'm like, it's weird that I'm watching you kiss while hiding behind a bush. If somebody else was watching this right now, they might be freaked out. Yeah. and then let's see. So it was, not interrupting the ceremony, the intimate moments, but also not being aggressive when other guests take photos, and that's a big one for new photographers as well. Let me ask you a question, Casey, do you get upset when another guest or when a guest is taking a photo of, you know, maybe a shop that you set up with their iPhone?

Casey Fatchett:

I try not to care about it as much anymore. my issue is when people are distracting the couple or the wedding party while we're trying to do portraits. I will tell people now what I, one of the things I do now is I say, okay, everyone, I'm going to give you one minute to take pictures of the bride and groom, wedding party, whatever. And then you're done because I can't have them being distracted and looking off in different directions. Okay. It's like, I'm just, we're going to give you a little bit of time to take that you take a few photos, but then they got to pay attention to me because otherwise, we'll get like one person looking off at aunt Sue's camera and then another person's, you know, like, especially if you've got little kids in the wedding party, it's like, Ooh, don't look anywhere. Yeah. But you turn every person in the, you know, especially when it comes to wedding party photos or family photos and they're looking off in different directions. It's just, Yeah, I'm not aggressive anymore. There was a time when I think I was a little bit more, I don't know, I would say something if somebody like actually, like if they physically touched me, like they were like, God, like I had a guy who was like shooting over my shoulder and he was kind of like leaning up against me and I was just like, man. Like, I just can't, I'm trying to do my thing here and like you are invading my personal space.

Raymond Hatfield:

That happened to me once as well. they didn't necessarily touch me, but they definitely were shooting over me and I probably took the wrong approach, but everybody was happy about this, actually. I straight up called them out in front of everybody, but not like, Hey man, what are you doing? I was just like, once I noticed him, I stopped and I was like, Oh, you want, like, here we go. okay, everybody, we're going to let, and I said, what's your name, sir? And he was like, Mark or whatever. And I was like, okay, okay, okay. I said, we're gonna let Mark take some photos with his iPhone. while I stepped down. These photos are going to be really important right here and it turns out, and everybody was like, Oh, like they understood what I was doing, obviously. And Mark felt super awkward and I feel terrible. I probably should not have done that. that was being aggressive towards a, uh, towards a guest, but, he immediately backed down and never took a single photo later. Later, I found out, that he was it was his, um, daughter who was in the bridal party. And I thought to myself, what are you going to do with any of these photos? like you don't even know this couple really well at all. He just showed up, I think, for the, for the free dinner and wanted, you know, so I always find that weird.

Casey Fatchett:

Yeah. And like, the thing gets me is, when it really aggravates me, I think is where it gets on my nerves is the people leaning out into the aisle. Oh yeah. Their phones during the, when the bride is, or whoever is walking down the aisle towards me. And then I've got all these hands like leaning out. Oh, I'm going to get my photos. They're just like, ah, it's such a terrible photo or like people, person who just wants to put their hand out and like record it. Like we're going to get video of this whole thing. Like just to stick my arm out in here. Like, no, like maybe there's a professional photographer here taking photos. and that's the only time I really. There that I have find myself consistently being like, wanting to say something. Obviously I don't, because I'm not going to interrupt the ceremony.

Raymond Hatfield:

I'm following

Casey Fatchett:

Chad, GPCs, uh, not, not going to interrupt the ceremony. I recently saw an article on one of the more. Premier wedding websites. I will not say whom, the talk about like, do we really need to be that concerned about like not being on our phones at not the guests, not being on their phones at, ceremonies and like suggesting that they could be taking photos, whatever it's like, unplugged ceremonies, should that be a thing of the past? And I was, and I was just sort of like, okay. do you want pictures of your, all of your guests looking at their phones? Uh

Raymond Hatfield:

huh.

Casey Fatchett:

Like that's the thing that I don't think people that I don't think people realize. They have this sense of like, I might get a great picture as a guest that you're going to want. No, no. Everybody's my guests at my own wedding, like sent me hundreds and hundreds of pictures that they took. If I, you know, was it, were any of them things that I've probably looked at more than once or twice. No. Just because it's like quality is not that good and like,

Raymond Hatfield:

especially from a distance and they got to zoom in. They always try to zoom in and it's just, it's just bad. It's bad stuff.

Casey Fatchett:

I think that's like, there's like another thing that, that got kind of, that got me recently was I saw this Tik Tok. It was like, giving our guests a, Like, uh, I'm going to give you. Categories of photos that you need to take throughout the day of disposable, like film camera

Raymond Hatfield:

scavenger,

Casey Fatchett:

scavenger hunt. Yes. I had to ask, but I couldn't think of the word. Um, but like, and one of them was like their first kiss in the ceremony

Raymond Hatfield:

and

Casey Fatchett:

like cutting the cake and like, like you're encouraging people to get in the way of your photography. Yeah. Yeah. Like at these moments, like I remember one of the, that happened at a wedding. And I told the couple afterwards that I was sorry that I didn't get a picture of the first kiss because, one of their guests stepped out into the aisle directly in front of me during their first kiss at the, at the end of the ceremony and took a picture on their phone. And then, like, I was trying to get around them to take a picture, but it was over already. And this person went, ha ha. I beat the photographer.

Raymond Hatfield:

That was their attitude. And that's what they said.

Casey Fatchett:

Yeah.

Raymond Hatfield:

Oh my gosh.

Casey Fatchett:

This is literally what the person said. Is actually their response was, aha, laughed. Like we're not actually said, aha, I beat the photographer, like, Ooh, like it's a joke celebrating like, Oh yeah, like with the people in there,

Raymond Hatfield:

I got the scavenger hunt. Yay. Yeah. What do I win?

Casey Fatchett:

You win. your friends no longer have a, will not have a photo of the first kiss from there. Yeah.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah. yeah. You will no longer have game nights with your friends anymore. . Horrible. I was like,

Casey Fatchett:

oh. I told them afterwards, I was like, I don't want you to be upset with me when you get the photos back and there's no picture of this. Just letting you know that one of you guys stepped in front of me during that part of the ceremony and it was him. Oh, perfect. It was that guy. So if you know, and I said, and they were, and they were like, oh, well, you know, they were kind of like, oh. Yeah. Okay. and I said, I'm sure they will probably let, you know, because they were so proud of themselves. And then they kind of like laughed and like, yeah, we know who it was. Oh my

Raymond Hatfield:

gosh. That's horrible. I hate to hear that because really, I mean, that actually leads into the next prompt here from the next piece of advice from chat GPT, which is not capturing key moments throughout the day. Now, the examples given are things like cake cutting and the first dance, but also the, the first kiss. But when it comes to missing those key moments. I find that the first kiss is obviously like the, the highest risk, right? Because one, it's so quick and two, everybody wants to get a shot. And as you said, people will just step in front of the aisle, but things like the first dance and the cake cutting, I don't think I've ever had an issue with those mostly because they are longer, but also people are typically sitting in their seats at that moment. I have had an issue with like the, like the bouquet toss or something, where somebody steps in the way, but aside from that,

Casey Fatchett:

I don't know if it's more of a Midwestern thing 'cause you're in the Midwest. Mm-Hmm. but sometimes we'll have DJs be like, Hey, everybody, get your cameras out. It's time for the cake cutting. And like, come take a photo of, and I'm sort of like, dude, you're killing me here. How are you doing? Everybody stand behind me. It's like, and I will, I will make it very, make it very clear. I'm, I'll say like, nobody come further than here. Mm-Hmm. . Like, you wanna take photos? Great. You gotta stay like behind here. the times when it gets aggravating for me. And I just have to work around it when it comes to dances, when you get some family member. Who wants like to do video or get a photo of like during the first dance and they'll be like walk right out onto the dance Floor the

Raymond Hatfield:

dance floor. Yeah

Casey Fatchett:

and get like four feet away from them and like look over here Like take i'm gonna take a picture i'm gonna stand right in the way and just like and like stop Interfering. Okay with moments of the day and I get it a lot with the parent dances too where like some family member like an aunt or an uncle like brother or sister of whichever parent is the answer. I'm like, oh, I want to get a photo of the two of you Oh great, and like make them stop and like pose for a picture, And yeah, it just sort of like, I feel like it it cuts off the mood.

Raymond Hatfield:

It does. have experienced that but luckily, it's nothing It never lasts for the whole dance. But then again, like sometimes you don't know, cause sometimes a couple goes out and, or, a father, daughter or whatever will go out and the dance, their dance is only like 45 seconds and you just have to hope, that it goes long enough. Yeah. But yeah, that really doesn't give you many options as far as different, variety of, compositions or focal lengths or anything. Now, when you shoot the, uh, like cake cutting, typically what's your, what's your lens set up there? I'm usually pretty wide, just, I guess, so that I hope to avoid any potential problems like that. But do you take a

Casey Fatchett:

different approach? I shoot with a 50 usually, and then I have, um, But I'll stand back a little bit. I'm not like right up on them. It depends, again, it depends on like the scenario and what your situation is. Sometimes closer. I've been finding all recently, a lot of people are doing the cake cutting sort of off to the side. like they don't want to make it a big deal.

Raymond Hatfield:

Really? Like

Casey Fatchett:

stop, stop the reception and like stop the party.

Raymond Hatfield:

Then at that point, what's the point of the cake cutting?

Casey Fatchett:

Well, they just want a picture of it. I mean, like, we'll get some photos of them cutting cake and whatever, and that's it. Right. It's the same for me and for them and we're getting the same photo, but we're not stopping the reception and telling everybody, Hey, look over here, we're going to cut the cake. so they kind of, they still get it and they still, have that moment with each other and get the photos, but we're not stopping the flow of the party. I see. I, a little weird, how I do, how I shoot the cake cutting. I, I, Have to both bodies ready at that point. I usually shoot with a 135 and a 50

Raymond Hatfield:

with I will shoot wielding cameras

Casey Fatchett:

Yeah, how

Raymond Hatfield:

do you get that? You got a hold one with the hand?

Casey Fatchett:

Yes, I do around with my left hand

Raymond Hatfield:

gonna have to try that.

Casey Fatchett:

it's a little weird and You know it but what I will do is I will get the 50, you know I'm lined up and whatever and then I will use the 135. I like to get close ups of the hands. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Making the cut, and like, sometimes the faces, but getting like, different composition. Like, it doesn't have to be like their whole face, but like looking at each other, and you'll get like, an interesting little composition there. yeah. I like that. So, that's how I shoot it,

Raymond Hatfield:

That's why I'm excited for the or kind of upset about the was it the light 16 camera or whatever that could not only You could infinitely adjust the focal length in post as well as the aperture The

Casey Fatchett:

light was that the light row like the light field cameras? Yeah. Yeah any any light field camera? Yeah, I remember when that first came out and I was like, oh they had one that was I think it was back in the Pots. They had one and I was like, Oh, this sounds like a great idea. And I was like, Oh, you can only change it on their

Raymond Hatfield:

proprietary proprietary

Casey Fatchett:

proprietary software. And like, I don't know if there was like output, like if you could output from it, you just view it in different ways. So yeah, that was, yeah, hopefully

Raymond Hatfield:

in the future we get there.

Casey Fatchett:

I don't know. And part of me is like, I don't necessarily want to do that. Because I like that moment. I'm choosing the, like for me as a photographer, I'm choosing what's in focus and sure. There are times I think that it'd be pretty rare when I would want to go back and like, oh man, obviously there are mistakes that happen in focusing on whatever, like you have make a focusing mistake and I would like to fix that. I think that's more common, but there aren't generally times when I go like, oh, I'd like to focus on, something else in this photo because what I will normally do is I will shoot both of those. Mm hmm. I will take a picture of Whatever's in the foreground that I wanted and then I will adjust and take the picture of the thing in the background that I wanted to focus and I will take both of those images and I might compose it slightly differently so that you know It's happening at the same time.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah,

Casey Fatchett:

but I'm not always Like you understand what I mean? I do I

Raymond Hatfield:

do I guess I guess in my head I kind of I I guess I've always thought about these light field cameras a little bit differently and how you just described it Opened up my mind to a whole different world of possibilities and I guess in my head I kind of thought I kind of see it as, kind of like shooting raw. Like when you shoot in camera, it saves a JPEG version of it. And like, that's done. if you want it to be, or you can go in and, change things like the exposure, the white balance to make more creative decisions. And I had always thought in my head, like you'd still shoot it. Quote unquote right in camera for the way that you want it, but then you just have the options Yeah to play with it later and I didn't even think about the possibility of somebody just being like we're just gonna use it to capture everything and figure out how this wedding looks like in post

Casey Fatchett:

Right, and there's a certain amount of it Also, like I think this goes back to like you need a lot of light for those those images And that was the issue. I think that they were having back I don't know where they are now with implementing it But like when they I think that When the first ones were coming out in like the late aughts, it was the light row. I don't know if they're still doing it. Like L Y T R O. I

Raymond Hatfield:

think Apple bought them.

Casey Fatchett:

Oh yeah. They may have. yes they did. I think in the early teens, they'd put out like two or three versions of the camera before they got bought. And, but the thing was that people weren't really discussing was you need a lot of light throughout the, like the frame. I did not know that. If you're not going to, you're taking a picture. So think about this. you're looking at me. There's a lot of light kind of like on my face at the moment. Is the item in the background that you want to switch the focus to? Is there light on that?

Raymond Hatfield:

I see. Yeah. Yeah. That's a good point. You think about

Casey Fatchett:

like, it has to be, if you're going to just switch the focal length and change where the focus is, that doesn't mean like everything is properly lit as you want it to be throughout the whole range of focal

Raymond Hatfield:

possibilities. And like we were just saying, lighting, it's pretty important. Pretty important. Yeah. Yeah. So, we technically got two more, but we, kind of already covered this, this next one, which was just delivering poor quality photos and not just necessarily like in resolution, but photos with lack of proper lighting, lack of, maybe they have poor editing or, you know, just show a lack of, skill or knowledge in photography. So we got that one. The last one here is. And I think this one is underrated and, I applaud ChatGPT for coming up with this. Not delivering on your promises as a wedding photographer.

Casey Fatchett:

Yes.

Raymond Hatfield:

That's a big one.

Casey Fatchett:

Again, ChadGBT for the win.

Raymond Hatfield:

For the win!

Casey Fatchett:

You know what I'm

Raymond Hatfield:

going to do? I'm going to put my voice into the internet and then just say, come up with an episode of the beginner photography podcast and then just take that script and put it into whatever AI, uh, voice augmenter I can come up with and I can retire and that'll be great.

Casey Fatchett:

Yeah. Just like have different episodes. It's just, just you talking. Um, well, I mean, doesn't Adobe have a thing where they can like listen to your voice for like if you read a certain amount of text, right?

Raymond Hatfield:

Yes,

Casey Fatchett:

and it just listens to your voice and then it can like create your voice with James Earl Jones sold his voice,

Raymond Hatfield:

right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Casey Fatchett:

I think

Raymond Hatfield:

that I think the issue is things like inflection. yeah, I'm scared. I'm scared to try it out. But, uh,

Casey Fatchett:

it's for me, it's, it'd be weird for me because. I feel like one thing I always talk about Willie Nelson and why I like Willie Nelson is because you can listen to him sing the same song a hundred times and it's always different. Oh, it makes different inflections. And it's like, maybe I never loved you. It's just like, he just does it differently every time. And I feel like there are lots of times, like, I don't always say things same inflection. So I think it'd be difficult to capture my personality with an AI still got some work. Voice. Yeah. but to go back to delivering on your promises, I think this also deals with something I touched base on for managing expectations. if you over promise and under deliver, you're going to get a really bad reputation very quickly. And I've seen it happen in the wedding photography industry. There was a guy, who became very popular in wedding photography because he was taking these beautiful photos. And like all the wedding blogs and magazines went nuts for them. And he was just like, and I saw this interview with him in range finder that said, I went from shooting 10 weddings a year to being booked for like 60 weddings and I'm booked for like the next two years and I immediately, and I immediately thought this is a recipe for disaster because he's going to have to scale up. And then I was actually having lunch with a group of photographers in the city. And there was another wedding photographer who I had not known this time and she was like hired this guy to do her wedding and he completely bungled it.

Raymond Hatfield:

Oh no.

Casey Fatchett:

Cause he was doing four weddings that weekend, Thursday, Sunday, all over the country. Like he was flying from like Nevada to Minnesota to somewhere else. Like he completely, like she was waiting for her images and just waiting and waiting and waiting. Nothing happening. Nothing. And he posted photos from a wedding at the same venue, which was a very, it's very specific. It was a gold mine. Oh, wow. has been turned into a wedding venue. And he posted photos from another wedding that he shot there. And he had told her when he shot her wedding, he's like, Oh, I've never been here before. And the bride from the other wedding that he's posting on Facebook says, thank you so much for showing me the photos from that other wedding you did. at this venue, that's part of the reason I booked you. So now the bride is thinking like, wait,

Raymond Hatfield:

those had to have been my photos.

Casey Fatchett:

Yeah. Those had to be my photos. And you showed them to somebody else, but I haven't seen them yet. And one before she had a chance to say anything, one of her bridesmaids said like, Oh, these are lovely photos. Can't wait to see the photos from the original wedding. And this guy was like, you'll, those will be ready when they're ready.

Raymond Hatfield:

Whoa.

Casey Fatchett:

Stop being such a B word. No way. And asking for me, asking about them all the time. And this one, the bridesman was like, I've never asked you before. Meanwhile, the bride had said, like, reached out to him a bunch of times. Then she finally, like, reached out and said, like, you showed my photos from my wedding to somebody else. Like, where, when do I get sued? And he goes, Hey, I wasn't sure how to tell you this, but I lost most of the photos. Like, he's like, I just, you know, I, uh, and you're talking to another photographer.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah. Yeah. So the plan was just to never tell her about it, just hope you weren't gonna

Casey Fatchett:

tell me? I hope that it just gets

Raymond Hatfield:

swept under the rug.

Casey Fatchett:

Right, like I paid you already and like, you weren't gonna say anything and he was just like, yeah, that's just how like shit happens, I guess . Uh, and he's like, that's, that's just the way things are and was not, did not apologize she's like, can I see the photos that you did get? Like, he basically got none of, there's no, none of the portraits. No photos of her with her dad who had since passed away. no photos of her with her brother who, what, was, walked her down the aisle. like, none of the walking down the aisle. Like, there's all these things that were missing, like, huge chunks of it. And then she did, like, started, like, looking around online and found, like, these communities of brides.

Raymond Hatfield:

Burned by him. Same things

Casey Fatchett:

about

Raymond Hatfield:

him.

Casey Fatchett:

Like, that he would just, like, he would cancel. huh. And they'd find out that you like, he would say that like somebody in his family had died and, when he just wanted the better gig

Raymond Hatfield:

and

Casey Fatchett:

they'd find out like how he is because he would stupidly host social media, another wedding day.

Raymond Hatfield:

Another one. Yeah.

Casey Fatchett:

Oh, so excited. And it's just like, yeah, you can't do that. Hey, that's just skeezy stuff to do.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah.

Casey Fatchett:

But like, you can't over promise. What you deliver to people that I don't even think that's

Raymond Hatfield:

over promising. That is just that's just

Casey Fatchett:

not delivering

Raymond Hatfield:

base level promise, right? I will be at your wedding. I will take photos. I will give you photos. That is horrible. Yeah,

Casey Fatchett:

I always yeah scribe to you know Under promise over deliver. And like people are always happier when they get the photos faster than they expected or when they get, more of whatever the new, they were expecting to get, as opposed to like you telling them they're going to get all the stuff and then, like depending on the day of the winning, I gave, I don't give a hard number on photos that I delivered because I feel like this depends on. The day there's like so many different things. I'm like, well, give me an average per hour. Do your family and friends dance a lot? Like, because I did a wedding once where nobody danced and that made it really difficult to get a lot of photos because I had to like look around and really. work to get pictures of people like having conversations that were interesting.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah.

Casey Fatchett:

so yeah, I don't like to definitely, yeah. Chat GPT wins on this one. Deliver on your promises. My suggestion, if you're starting out, especially if you're just starting out in wedding photography, if you're in like your first few years of this, take a step back on what you say you deliver. Like not saying you have to like put it like half, but like, you know, if you're at a 10. Maybe a nine and just like, and you deliver the 10, until you find out like more of what you're capable of. Cause I think those first few years as a wedding photographer, you really don't know what you can do. you're, you're really figuring things out still.

Raymond Hatfield:

I agree. I mean, that's, what's hard about it is that, you're still so new that, that you got to figure these things out and like what it is that you actually want to do. for me, I think one of those things that everybody for awhile, it's like those, uh, Oh, what was it? Not, um, not wedding apps. well, this is going to sound real stupid on the podcast, but there was something else that people were giving away. It was some sort of digital something or other.

Casey Fatchett:

Oh, like digital album or like,

Raymond Hatfield:

No,

Casey Fatchett:

forget it.

Raymond Hatfield:

I don't even remember what it was now. Like, I'm not going to try to make up something here.

Casey Fatchett:

I can tell you one thing. Composited photos. Tell me more. like swapping out somebody's

Raymond Hatfield:

faces or,

Casey Fatchett:

no, just like, like when you see, like, this goes back to our, what we were talking about with the, the Vogue cover shoot for the dinosaur five minutes, but like, I have a, a friend and he's been a guest on my podcast, Silva. And he takes these like very heavily composited, like different shots of like wedding parties where he's putting together like 10 different photos and they're beautiful. They're beautiful photos, but he like manages the expectation of like, I get two of these

Raymond Hatfield:

I see. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And a wedding day.

Casey Fatchett:

Cause it takes 15 to 20 minutes for each of these shots. Right. He's very particular about with his couple saying like, we get one or two and that's it. Like, we just don't have time to do a bunch of these. it just takes way too much time, but I think there are people out there who are like, oh yeah, we can do whatever. Like, oh, you want to do that? Well, and like, and not really like men again, managing the expectation of like,

Raymond Hatfield:

well,

Casey Fatchett:

how much time is this going to take out of your day?

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah, especially like, because I think MagMod has really made those composite type photos, really, I mean they look great, right, when they're done well, they do look great, and like, to have this idea that I'm going to go into a wedding and take like nine of these, right, and set up my camera on a tripod. Extra gear, sometimes you don't bring a tripod to a wedding. I'm going to, set up all these light stands. People have to be perfect. Everything's got to be underexposed. I'm going to do all this work and then I have to bring it into Photoshop and put all these, layers together. It does take a lot of work and, getting lighting isn't going to

Casey Fatchett:

help. Yeah. He has a lighting assistant. That's just for those shoots. They're those shots pretty much. Wow. It goes around with holding a pole and like he shoots each section. Of the of the shot like, this person's like they're carrying his gear but like, you know That's one of their prime things because that's what he's known for. Sure. Yeah But he's very clear with people that you can't get that many of them

Raymond Hatfield:

and i'm sure after the first one He wasn't like that's it. I'm gonna tell all my couples. This is this is what they're getting

Casey Fatchett:

and it's the Yeah, I think there there are people out there who who want to like this goes back to like saying yes to everything I can oh, yeah, I can do that like don't tell people that you know how to like There's a venue in New York that I, or just a bunch of them actually that are made from like old bank buildings or whatever, like they're, they're huge. These stuff that was built in the early 1900s and they're huge and they've got just these giant, like 60 foot ceilings don't, if you don't know how to light a room like that, you gotta be real careful about what you're promising people because it's real difficult. Yeah. And that's one of those instances where on camera flash actually. Can help because there's giant rooms unless you're like setting up, a 600 watt off camera. You're

Raymond Hatfield:

not going to be bouncing.

Casey Fatchett:

Yeah. Because like, there's no place to set up the lights in the room in the middle of the room. Like I'm just going to put this in the middle, like it's there like 200 to 250 to 300 guests venues. Like where are you putting your stuff near anywhere near the dance floor that it's not going to show up in every shot. yeah, it's not the, yeah, you have to just be really careful about what you promise people.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah, absolutely. And just because you've, you've done it though, though, once you've practiced it, you did it one time and it turned out great. Doesn't mean it's ready for prime time. So always, always practice and know exactly what it is that, that you're getting into.

Casey Fatchett:

I find one of the best ways to practice lighting stuff like that, especially if you're doing it for portraits is practice it during an engagement session. And just say, like, I'm working on something, like, how about we take a few, can we take a few photos like this? Like, I'm, it's something I'm like thinking of adding to my repertoire. And then, yeah, then you can, you can get to practice it with people.

Raymond Hatfield:

Do you ever say like, if it works out awesome, if not, well, nobody ever has to see it. Yeah. Yes.

Casey Fatchett:

I say that all the time. there's another thing that I do, I do sort of panoramic composites during the ceremony Mm hmm. And I don't promise it to people if I can get it, I can get it and not every venue doesn't look good in every venue.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah.

Casey Fatchett:

Yeah. Um,

Raymond Hatfield:

but you know, like these are the things that happen after, after years of experience and trying things out and, it's better to not tell them that you're going to get it or it's better to, yeah, not tell them that you're going to get it and find out that the venue is, is, looks like garbage and then deliver a terrible photo just because it's that type of photo. So I get it. I get it. Casey. We're at the end of our time here, man. this has been a monster of an episode. We're going on two hours here now,

Casey Fatchett:

so. We've been talking, yes.

Raymond Hatfield:

We've been talking more than

Casey Fatchett:

that.

Raymond Hatfield:

But you said more importantly what?

Casey Fatchett:

No, I was saying we have more than that because you know, it's just easy to talk.

Raymond Hatfield:

Oh, it is. It is. I think last time you kicked me off because you're like, whoa. We're talking too much here and I don't like this and then immediately afterwards I, uh, I cried. So I was excited to have this conversation with you again today. and I know that the, uh, listeners are going to enjoy this as well and they're going to think this was fun. I want to hear more about, Casey and the Nerdy Photographer Podcast. So why don't you share with us where we can find out, where we can see more of your work online and also find the podcast.

Casey Fatchett:

if you wanna see my work, you can always go to fatt.com, F-A-T-C-H-E-T-T. you can find me on various socials at KC Photo. That's KC F Photo. you can find the Nerdy Photographer Podcast online at, nerdy photographer.com. or at the nerdy photo the. Nerdy photo on all the socials, socials

Raymond Hatfield:

man, I really hope that you enjoyed this episode of the podcast today and you can take away something that you know, you either want to avoid or maybe something that you want to implement in your own photography. I don't know. Jury's out on that one, but let me know. So I want to invite you into the beginner photography podcast community. If you want to grow your skills as a photographer. The best way to do that is to surround yourself with others who are just as passionate about photography as you and can provide helpful answers to your questions and even give a little feedback on your photos as well. So to join the most helpful community on the internet, just head over to beginnerphotopod. com forward slash group again, beginner. photopod. com forward slash group, or you can click the link on the homepage. Now that is it for this week. Thank you again for tuning into this week's episode of the beginner photography podcast, brought to you by cloud spot. It is the easiest way to deliver and sell your photos online. You can learn more about cloud spot and grab a free account by heading over to deliver photos. com. And remember the more that you shoot today, the better of a photographer. You will be. Tomorrow. Talk soon.

Outro:

If you enjoyed today's podcast, please leave us a review in iTunes or your favorite podcast player. And continue the conversation with Raymond and other listeners of the podcast by joining the Beginner Photography Podcast Facebook group today. Thank you. We'll see you again next week.