The Beginner Photography Podcast

Bringing Out the Best in Children in Family Photography with Melissa Miller

• Raymond Hatfield

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#380 On this episode of The Beginner Photography Podcast, Raymond Hatfield sits down with child and family photographer Melissa Miller. Melissa discusses her expertise in capturing genuine expressions in children through play. She shares her journey from photography hobbyist to professional photographer, the value of incorporating play into sessions, and her approach to working with families. Melissa emphasizes the importance of adapting one's approach to a child's personality and energy level and the impact of having a positive mindset. Tune in to learn how incorporating play can result in beautiful photos and to hear Melissa's personal journey of turning her passion into a thriving business.

THE BIG IDEAS

  • Play Breaks Down Barriers: Genuine smiles and joy emerge when you engage children with fun activities rather than rigid posing, unlocking emotion in every photo.
  • Every Child Is Photographable: Adapting your approach—whether a child is shy or energetic—ensures that every session can yield beautiful, authentic images.
  • Connection Over Perfection: Prioritizing the experience and making children feel seen creates images rich with emotion and memories for families.
  • Let Light Guide Your Session: Observing and using natural light intentionally, especially during golden hour or near windows, will elevate the mood and quality of your photos.


Links and Resources
Child and Family Photographer Melissa Millers Website
Follow Melissa on Instagram
Check out Melissa's Course "101 Ways to Play: Fresh Fun Family Photography"

Sign up for your free CloudSpot Account today at www.DeliverPhotos.com

Connect with Raymond!


Thanks for listening & keep shooting!

Melissa Miller:

If I notice that a child is high energy, rather than have them stand still for a portrait, I might do red light, green light, and on red light, they freeze. And that's when I capture that portrait of them standing, looking at me, usually laughing and smiling when I have like a specific idea in mind. And they're not a child that is going to want to follow directions, then I just incorporate it into a game of Simon Says. And I include silly things in there too, like Simon Says, jump up and down five times. And then Simon Says, freeze. So I build the play around the images that I'm wanting to capture.

Raymond Hatfield:

Hey, welcome to episode 380 of the Beginner Photography Podcast, brought to you by CloudSpot. The easiest all in one solution to deliver and sell your photos online. I am your host, Raymond Hatfield. And today we are chatting with child and family photographer, Melissa Miller, about introducing fun and play into your sessions. When I first saw, some of Melissa's work, I loved how free and how fun they were. And I think sometimes as a parent, you can, almost forget that your kids are, kids. And Melissa's images seem to really put that childish wonder, that they see through their eyes kind of at the forefront of her images and come to find out it's not a coincidence. she's not just photographing these perfect little angels who are never shy and always listen, but she's got a system to ensure that no matter how shy or how hard headed a child can be, she's able to break through and capture them as children. So there's a ton to take away from Melissa in this episode with everything that she shares, but, Heads up, we did have some internet connection issues and I tried my best to edit the conversation to minimize any possible disturbances, but you may still hear it. So just know that it's not your podcast player or your speakers. it's me. So with that, let's go ahead and get on into this podcast with Melissa Miller. Melissa, my first question for you is, I really want to know, when did you first know that photography was going to play an important role in your life?

Melissa Miller:

That's a good question. And I don't know that there was ever like a specific moment where I thought this is going to be in my life forever I remember one time on a hike maybe like 20 years ago where I was so distracted by the light And felt guilty that I didn't have my camera with me. that's probably when I should have known that this was going to be a lifelong obsession. And that, that sort of thought and that sort of guilt for not having my camera with me actually drove me to stop photography for a while. So I don't know that there was one specific moment. Did you have a, a specific moment where you knew like, Yeah,

Raymond Hatfield:

I think that's an important thing to talk about, because for a lot of people, there is kind of this culmination of just a lot of events that say like, maybe this is the thing that you should focus on. but for me, I would say that it was probably, just, hanging out with my friends as I was younger and, taking photos of them and them seeing that. themselves in the images and realizing, Oh, this isn't just like a snapshot. There was some intention put into this photograph. And I thought that these were just like normal things that people did. and I think that it was something within there. but I want to go back to that moment with you, with the light, because it sounds like, if you felt guilty that you didn't have a camera with you, you were already into photography a bit at this point, I'm assuming. So tell me how you got started.

Melissa Miller:

well, I. I worked for a newspaper from a really young age, from like the age of 12 for a city paper, and it started with just a little column about what was going on at the middle school, and then in high school, it transitioned to reporting on high school events, and then they asked me to start taking pictures of the people that I was writing about, then they ended up hiring me as their full time summer intern after my junior year. And, this is when I got my first camera. It was a film camera. And then, one summer I filled in for their photo editor. he actually had cancer and he was out for treatment for a while. And so, that's when I learned Photoshop very much older version of Photoshop pre light room. that was my. Introduction was actually through photojournalism.

Raymond Hatfield:

I see. Okay. that's super cool, to be able to get into it and already have a, uh, like an assignment, like baked in, I think a lot of new photographers struggle because they get the camera. they have an idea of what they want to shoot, but they're not sure how to go about it. And therefore maybe some, for some people it fizzles out, but for you, having that, I guess assignment for lack of a better term, Did you feel that that gave you the motivation to achieve higher level of photograph than others versus just snapshots of whatever was happening?

Melissa Miller:

Yeah, I think that I was really lucky to have built in mentors. I mean, I think that that was the biggest benefit to that, having people who were in the professional photojournalism world who took an interest in me because I was really young and I was kind of like, the novelty around the office. I think that was a huge advantage for me and I'm so grateful for them noticing me and taking the time to make me feel important. I'm sure, I'm sure my work was terrible, but and I had no idea how to use a camera. I mean, that was not, I didn't know what I was doing, but they were there to help me along. And this was the other big benefit. They gave me endless amounts. Of black and white film for free that I could take pictures of anything and I would just take it to the newspaper office and they would develop it all for me. That's how I became an overshooter.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah, that's a problem in and of itself now, isn't it? That's funny. So learning the photography side, though, I mean, especially on film, that's always, A difficult thing, I think, for new photographers to understand, that there was that delay between when you took the photo and when you were able to see it, did you find that you particularly struggled with that or, was that just something? No, because that's

Melissa Miller:

just the way it was.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah.

Melissa Miller:

I guess when I was in high school, digital cameras were coming out. I was very resistant to them in the beginning. I didn't get a nice digital camera until like recently, like within the last decade. Mm hmm. Why were you so resistant? Um, I held on to them. I don't know. I mean, the same reason I was against Harry Potter. At first because it was popular and I wanted to do my own thing.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah, I

Melissa Miller:

don't know nothing. Nothing valid.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah, right, right Just yeah, whatever reason at the time seems fine So then what were those struggles for you when it came to photography because I'm sure that you took those photos you came back You said that you had those mentors Would you find that you would go over your photos and discuss them and how you could be better or was it more personal?

Melissa Miller:

I would say that my biggest struggle was My first struggle was probably just figuring out how to use my camera, like the ins and outs of the technical aspects of photography. I didn't go to manual when I first started out. was doing a lot on like the, the settings that come with the camera, you know, like the little portrait icon. And I think that I missed out on a lot of potential back then because I just, I didn't go down that path and I was really intimidated by it. So I think that was the hardest thing for me when I was starting out was. Just learning the ins and outs of the camera.

Raymond Hatfield:

So how did you do it?

Melissa Miller:

I mean, I feel like that is still a struggle. I'm still learning all over the time. I feel like what I'm really good at with photography is that interacting with people, seeing the light, working with the light. and so now I just kind of. Do whatever it takes on my camera to get the outcome that I want on the photo, to capture the light that I the way that I want to, I'm not necessarily thinking about the gear. I'm just, and I don't know that I'm doing things the technical right way. But I'm just doing whatever it takes to get the beautiful image that I'm seeking.

Raymond Hatfield:

Right. Yeah, there's this, this phrase. I don't know where it came from. I don't know how old it is, but I feel like I heard my parents saying it. But it was that the, uh, the ends justify the means. And I feel like in photography, There's a lot of people who, stress over, you have to shoot manual, gotta do this, otherwise I'm not a real photographer. But I think the fact that we can, capture great images with our phones means that, the settings aren't as important as everybody says, and that a great photo is truly more than the, the sum of its settings. So, I completely understand, where you're coming from there. But, you went from, being a photojournalist, To did you continue along that path as a career?

Melissa Miller:

I think that's kind of what they were hoping I would do in college. I didn't I actually ended up becoming an elementary school teacher. And So I I would say that I have two great loves in life and it's the arts Including photography, but also writing and painting and drawing and then, children, I've always really been drawn to children, even in the early days with my camera. I remember I would be like covering an event and the photos that ended up in the paper were like the photos of the little children eating the snacks after the event. backlit, usually. So even, even then, I was really drawn to kids and interacted well with children. So I ended up teaching elementary school to my own children. I decided to stay at home and put aside teaching for a while just so I could enjoy this period of motherhood. and that's where I am now. And then, that's also when I got back deeper into photography and have been doing it professionally.

Raymond Hatfield:

So, was the camera because, you know, now you had kids and once again, you wanted to document, their growth growing up. And then at some point, somebody asked you, hey, can you take photos of my kids, I'm guessing?

Melissa Miller:

I kind of, actually what happened is my husband saw the way I was taking pictures of our baby when she was just itty bitty brand new, all of the time with my, my terrible cheap phone said, Hey, I think, I think it's time for you to get a camera again. And I was like, I can't get a camera. I get too obsessed. I'm not able to just be present. And that honestly has always been a struggle for me with photography. I don't know if you feel that way that you can't go to an event and just enjoy it because you're looking for the right angles and the light. And does that happen to you ever?

Raymond Hatfield:

It does a hundred percent.

Melissa Miller:

Yeah. So I think I was kind of scared of it. I mean, I was scared of like the level of passion obsession is the best I can think of. And that's what led me to put it aside for a while. And, luckily my husband doesn't always listen. So that Christmas under the tree, there was a camera. He got me a camera and, So I started taking pictures of my daughter and I would share them. And yeah, people started saying, Oh, I wish I could take pictures of my children like that, or can you take pictures of mine too? And then we actually had a, a son after our daughter and he passed away. He was only alive for five days. And, I had done a ton of research leading up to his birth in which I prepared to like do his newborn photos. And I had watched tons of videos and done trainings and bought things. And after that happened, I thought I would never be able to go back to newborn photography. I thought, I'm never going to be able to do this again because it's, it's forever tied to him. But it was actually after him that I really like launched into business. And I think that that became my baby, and now, now it's grown quite a bit. I still think of my business as my baby. And I guess. Like when I'm taking pictures of children, especially like rambunctious toddlers, they are, you know, you've chased toddlers, um, they're not going to sit and pose for you. Yeah, and I, I think that that can be frustrating to people, to the parents, to the photographers. I think that my son Luke is always kind of in the back of my mind and I just want to like show parents what they have. Like I want these photos to remind parents. Of what a gift family is and what a gift these children are. And I want the children to look back at the photos and see the love that their parents have for them. So I guess for me, since that experience, it's kind of taken on. It's taken on its own life, in that sense.

Raymond Hatfield:

Wow. well, thank you very much for sharing

Melissa Miller:

that. Sorry, I just,

Raymond Hatfield:

No, that's Part

Melissa Miller:

of, part of my journey. Yeah.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah, very difficult thing and that I can't imagine, what that must have been like. and I too would imagine that it would be extremely difficult to move forward. in photography, having prepared so much for, for that. so going forward, I want to know because had mentioned that, that your husband had, had said, the way that you take photos of, of art. Child is like, fascinating or it's wonderful. Can you kind of elaborate on that? Like, what do you think it was about the way that you were photographing your child that your husband thought was, unique or special?

Melissa Miller:

I think what he saw more than anything was just that I loved it. I don't think he was necessarily looking at the photos themselves and saying, Oh, look at the way you captured the light. I think he just saw that I loved it. I mean, I was doing it like. almost every day. It's how I played with my, my newborn daughter. It's how she did tummy time. I would put her in tummy time and then I would be on the other side, taking pictures of her. Actually, that was when I actually got my camera. but yeah, I think he just saw that it was something that I loved. and I think sometimes we're not willing to do nice things for ourselves. And so I would have never suggested that we spend a large chunk of the family's money. On myself, even if I wanted to, even if I didn't have this concern that I was going to get distracted on hikes by light. So I think, I think he just, you know, did it, and he actually ended up upgrading my camera too after we lost our son. He said, you know, I think it's time for you to, you've pushed the limits of this. His dad is actually a photographer as well and teaches middle school photography. So, there's another built in. Mentor for me.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah. Wow. So it seems like, having somebody there, with you, is a, kind of a common theme, to kind of push you along and, and to help you out, which, I'm sure extremely helpful, but I want to know, were you, uh, Because I'm assuming that this aspect playing with children, playing with your families, is something that is kind of baked into who you are, having gone to school for, to be an elementary educator, you have to learn about children, how they interact, how they best respond. Is that where that came from?

Melissa Miller:

yeah, I think so. I think it predates that actually. I mean, even as an elementary school teacher, I incorporated play in my classroom a lot. I would say more than the average teacher or more than other teachers that I interacted with. and I don't think that there's, it's necessarily better. I just. I think that that's just my approach. I mean, even when I was young, I started babysitting at like 11. I already had that desire to just play with children. And, you know, childhood is just so magical. And I think that's what drives the play. and that's just where children are. I just, I remember being a little girl and, I remember the way that I wanted adults to interact with me. And so I think it's always been there. I think you're right. I think it's a part of who I am. It's not like I set out one day and thought, I think I could get better expressions out of these children. If I incorporated some games from a list, which is, you know, now what I'm like sharing with people, but it's. Yeah, it's, it's really more from a place of a genuine love of children.

Raymond Hatfield:

I guess I really asked that question because, I think a lot of listeners would think to themselves, man, I really, really wish that I had some sort of mentor, somebody who I could ask questions, somebody who I could, lean on and get those answers. But. That's not 100 percent the case for You know, you still took your, experiences and your own personal desires and loves and incorporated that into your own photography. And I think in a way that is so much more than just, settings related that you can kind of learn. from anywhere. but you're going deeper than that. So I want to know more because today you are shooting, children and families. I want to know more about how you approach these sessions, how you transitioned into, more of a professional style of photography. Because as we all know, taking photos of your kids, during tummy time is great, but that's not going to be a full series of images that you can, you know, deliver. so, uh, What was that transition like for you, where you knew that you had to, have a defined start time and an end time and capture all the images that you needed within that?

Melissa Miller:

I'm not sure what the transition was like. I guess I just started photographing families but a lot of the early research was with my own children. you know, figuring out when, light, I knew what I wanted to produce with light and I had been exposed to this. During my days at the newspaper, there was one photographer there who shot with backlight a lot, and I always loved that about his work, and, so I was exposed to that early on, and some of my early photos, you can, I can see that in it, in them, but I would say that light is what drove things like session start and end time, once I figured out when and how to capture that magical light, I still don't like shooting outside of golden hour. I mean, I do, of course, sometimes. and a lot of my indoor work, like lifestyle work, or when I'm working with brands, like I've worked with like Gerber children's wear and some of the work for them is in homes. And obviously that's not during golden hour, but, that's still my love when I'm outdoor with the family playing and there's also, you know, kids have. A limited amount of time that they are well, willing, active participants. And that increases the more that you incorporate play, of course. That also helps set things like session start and end time.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah. Yeah. You mentioned how much you, you love working with that backlight. you know, when you're outdoors, it's great because the sun is this giant, light source, but when you do have to work inside, do you find that, you gravitate towards, windows or other sources of light to, to still use that as a backlight?

Melissa Miller:

Yes. Windows are my best friend. I'm almost always shooting right up against a window or, like I think of the shoot I had. Late last year, I had a little children's bed pushed right up underneath the window and then I was shooting overhead to get, you know, the children laughing and playing on the bed together.

Raymond Hatfield:

I want to transition more into the, uh, family side of these, uh, of doing these sessions because, there's a lot of family photographers out there listening right now and, and they want to learn more about this because as you said earlier, kids have this defined amount of time that they can kind of work with, within a session before they just completely lose it. and your style of photography is very much play, right? I'm sure that we'll talk about your course here in just a moment, but, when it comes to play, we get children, we get these emotions, now we're able to capture these photos, but there's an element, and you tell me, from families, I'm sure, who just want like, also, you gotta get that one nice family photo of everybody together and staring at the camera, so knowing that kids kinda can lose that attention, how do you deal with that? How do you make sure that you can still grab that photo?

Melissa Miller:

I usually start out with that photo. I mean, I start out and get the one of the family standing looking at me. And honestly, a lot of people that hire me don't even want that photo at all. yeah, the work that I share is very lifestyle. It's, families walking together, looking at each other, playing, throwing their kids in the air. And those are the images that I share. I very rarely share images of a family standing together, looking at the camera. So, I mean, they don't even come in. Thinking that that's what I do, because it's really not, but, yeah, I do always try to get at least a few shots like that, and portraits of the children just smiling at the camera, genuine smiles, but smiling at the camera, and, and then once I've gotten those kind of out of the way, then playtime begins, and that, I feel like that's when the magic happens.

Raymond Hatfield:

I see. But even,

Melissa Miller:

even as I'm doing those shots, there's still a lot of play happening.

Raymond Hatfield:

As I'm getting

Melissa Miller:

those images.

Raymond Hatfield:

You mean like whole family photos?

Melissa Miller:

Yeah, I'm making silly sounds, or singing a favorite song of a toddler, or doing character voices, or playing Simon Says to get those genuine smiles. Because we want a picture of the family smiling at the camera, but we want the smiles to be genuine, right? Sure. So I'm doing anything I can. To get those genuine smiles and that often incorporates play.

Raymond Hatfield:

Okay, so when it comes time for just playtime with the children, So, then let me ask, are the sessions more focused on like, we're going to get a few photos of, the family together, those will be more towards the beginning, but the majority of the session will be more environmental, playful portraits of children, or is that just, uh, kind of a small aspect of it? So that's, that's a large aspect of it.

Melissa Miller:

That's the bulk, yeah. playful portraits of the whole family as well, the family playing ring around the rosy or walking like a train. I think that's one of my favorite shots It's gorgeous with golden hour backlight and having the family. Yeah, just walking holding hands looking at each other anywhere But me, I think it's beautiful

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah, I say the same thing. Uh, you know during a wedding i'll say, you know You guys can look at each other you guys can look, you know around up at the trees. Just don't look down you know That makes it look like you're very uninterested in each other. Don't look at me. that's very distracting unless I tell you to, totally get that. I like that train idea though. So, when it comes time to, to playing with children, Tell me what that looks like because, you know, when I think of playing with my children, I don't think that, I guess I don't think of it in a photographic sense. I've heard of things like prompts before, but can you kind of go a little bit deeper into how it is that you interact specifically with children during your sessions to, to get these genuine emotions and reactions?

Melissa Miller:

Yeah, so I would say that I use prompts to create opportunities for play. to create genuine expressions and just to capture the magic of childhood. So for instance, I might have them like if, if I noticed that a child is high energy and rambunctious and wants to be moving rather than have them stand still for a portrait, I might do red light, green light, and on red light, they freeze. And that's when I capture that portrait of them standing, looking at me, usually laughing and smiling because they just had to freeze while they were in mid run. so that's one example. Or, I mentioned Simon Says earlier. That's something else. When I need them to do something specific, when I have like a specific idea in mind. And they're not a child that is going to want to follow directions. Then I just incorporate it into a game of Simon says, and I include silly things in there too. Like jump up and down five times. Simon says, jump up and down five times. And then Simon says, freeze. so I build the play around the images that I'm wanting to capture.

Raymond Hatfield:

Okay. I see. is there a. A limit to this, because it seems like you could just do that for the entire session and get everything that you need. But do kids,

Melissa Miller:

I do that for the entire session. Oh, really? So, so no kids don't have a limit for play. kids, kids are wired to play. Yeah. The whole session is play.

Raymond Hatfield:

Of course, of course. but I'm sure that you're not just saying, Simon says the entire time. I'm sure that there's more to it than that. Maybe you, you give them I see what you're saying. Additional prompts as, as you said, like with the train and whatnot.

Melissa Miller:

I see what you're saying. Yeah, no, Simon Says is not the whole time. That's, yeah, kids do get sick of playing the same thing. Yeah.

Raymond Hatfield:

So then that's to get the specific photo that you're looking for. So maybe Simon Says, pick a flower. Simon Says, smell the flower. Simon Says, something like that? Does that sound right?

Melissa Miller:

yeah. I mean, I think if you have something interesting like a flower, you don't need Simon Says. I save Simon Says for when there's like, A specific pose that I want, which most of the session isn't actual poses. It's, Yeah, sending them on a bug hunt or searching for a flower or picking up a flower to surprise your mom with and then go put it behind her ear. anything that allows kids to be sneaky, they love that. So I'll have, you know, I'll put mom and dad, I'll let them, I'll tell them they get to have a romantic moment so they can go over there and give a little smooch or a hug or a snuggle. And then I'll have the kids near me and I'll whisper, okay. when I see. You're going to run up and give mom's hug or you're going to run up and run around mom and dad or whatever it is, if the kids feel that they are doing something sneaky, they love that. So that's one example of how I incorporate.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah, I can, uh, attest to the fact that my kids also love to be sneaky and my wife hates surprises. So that's a very, a fine line, a very delicate balance that we have to walk, in this household. so when you're working with child, right? Let's, um, say, you know, go on a bug hunt. what are the parents doing at this, at this time? Are they just watching?

Melissa Miller:

Yeah. I mean, they're, they're there. If it's something that's focused on the child and I'm just photographing the child or the children, yeah. The parents are usually just kind of on standby, but they're in and out of the shots constantly.

Raymond Hatfield:

Oh, I guess what I was trying to get out there is, Having done a few family sessions myself, I know that parents can, sometimes they have an expectation of how their children should act or how they should look during a session. Do you find that they are trying to give input on how the child should act during this time? Or do you do anything to combat that?

Melissa Miller:

hear about that happening a lot to photographers. that hasn't been my personal experience, but I also heavily market it. My expertise with children and with play. And so a lot of times when people hire me, they're hiring me for that specifically, and they're coming with a lot of trust. So I think I avoid, and I am at a high enough price point that I avoid. I just avoid a lot of the problems that you might otherwise see. And, but I, I mean, really, I feel like I've been so blessed at work with families who for the most part, let me do my thing. and I. Also do a lot of prep beforehand. You know, I send out, there's a lot of communication. I'm asking questions about their children and their interests and letting them know that all they need to do is just to relax and come to the session and have fun. And I make sure I stress that they don't need to worry about their children's behavior, that I have children myself. I've taught elementary school. I know that children, I don't expect the children to just Stand still and smile at the camera the whole time, so they come in knowing that play will be incorporated.

Raymond Hatfield:

Of course. I gotcha. Okay. So, then when it comes time to that session, if the family had, filled out that questionnaire, about what their child is into, what sorts of things that they do, how do you use that information, during the session?

Melissa Miller:

that's a great question. I think that that is, So I, I mentioned earlier a bug hunt. I think of a questionnaire that was filled out by a family that it, they mentioned that their son loves spiders and lizards and other creepy crawly things. I don't remember. And then at the session, I noticed that, yeah, I noticed that the child was like fixating on some ants that were, crawling across the trail. And so I said, Oh, do you like ants? And he said yes, and I, I remembered the questionnaire and so from then on his entire session, he was probably two and a half, maybe three years old. the rest of his session was all focused around bugs. I pretended to be a bee and I pointed out insects that were flying in the air. I suggested areas for him to stand where I thought he might find nice bugs, AKA where the light was. Beautiful. another session I had with a really rambunctious, little one who. Didn't want to follow directions at all for anything, ever. And I was using all of my usual tricks. I remembered that she liked Peppa Pig, so I spent the remainder of her session in an English accent, being Mama Pig, or being Miss Rabbit, or snorting, you know, jumping in muddy puddles.

Raymond Hatfield:

Trying to be George, looking for dinosaurs. Oh

Melissa Miller:

yeah, I can see her well versed in the Peppa Pig world, yeah.

Raymond Hatfield:

Uh, we've watched a few episodes here in this household. Yes, of course, of course. no, that's great. I mean, so ultimately what it comes down to is, is that you take that information and, you're trying to use it to get that child's attention to achieve what it is that you need. So it's not necessarily changing your style of photography. It's just to better help you, get the focus that the family's looking for. I got it. And I

Melissa Miller:

think really like I think everybody wants to feel known, including children, and so understanding things that they're interested in and mentioning them during the session and incorporating activities. That include them. I think it helps the child feel known and loved. And so it's not, for me, it's not just about getting a pretty picture. It's also about the experience that the child is having. and that goes back to my own life experiences, you know, like I, I just think children are so special and I want them to have a wonderful time. and also when they look back at the pictures, the pictures are going to look more beautiful to the family because they're going to remember the emotions. That were happening while those pictures were being taken, they're going to remember the experience. And so, I think all of that is incorporated in the image.

Raymond Hatfield:

Ah, I love that. can you tell me kind of from a, a photography standpoint then, right? from the technical aspect of it. you're giving children these prompts, right? This is what I want you to do. Go look for a bug over there. at that point, Do you just let them do their thing, and then you're going to walk around them and capture what it is that you need, or you're having them do things specifically so that they're, for lack of a better term, posed in a specific way, because you know that, you know, I don't know, you need a three quarter shot or whatever. could you expand a bit on that?

Melissa Miller:

Yeah, I would say it's more of the latter. I'm more giving them things to do to get a specific outcome. There are always candid shots that I don't plan always, always, always, you know, I, I think of one little boy who was a common theme seems to be children with lots of energy who don't want to follow directions. Right. and that's fine. I, I just expect that, but I was trying to get his attention and get him to walk toward me. And instead he deliberately turned away and just was kind of like touching the grass as he walked away. But, um, One thing I do always try to control is where the children are in correlate, like where the children are with the light. And so even though he was walking away from me and not doing what I asked, I got a beautiful shot of him backlit, walking away the same way. Sun glowing through his hair, his hand kind of running along the grass, capturing everything that happens naturally along the way.

Raymond Hatfield:

Now, if I were to, first, I appreciate you kind of breaking that down because, I know that a lot of, new photographers are always looking for, a step by step guide, right? Like, it's always difficult to figure out in the beginning, kind of, everything. Right. Put it together yourself, and then use that to, shoot your own thing. so having some sort of starting point and some sort of guide as to how you use these prompts has been, very helpful. but, transitioning a little bit more to the, the image side of it. Right. If I were to ask you to kind of, close your eyes and to imagine a Melissa Miller photograph, what would you say are like the three to four words that would describe. What kind of embodies your images?

Melissa Miller:

Mm hmm. What a cool question. I would say backlit, glowing, playful. Those are my favorite things that I try to incorporate.

Raymond Hatfield:

Uh huh. So when it comes time to even just like, taking snapshots, say with your phone, right, of your child, maybe you're out, you don't bring the camera. Well, I don't know, I guess side question, do you bring your camera with you everywhere you go?

Melissa Miller:

No, I don't. And that goes back to what I talked about earlier. Like, I can get really obsessed. If my camera is there and I'm in photography mode, I'm all in. Yeah. Yeah. So I intentionally leave my camera behind sometimes just so that I can be present, especially when I'm with my children.

Raymond Hatfield:

Okay.

Melissa Miller:

Gotcha. But I do bring it sometimes.

Raymond Hatfield:

So then when it comes time to just going out without the camera, and maybe you take like a, a cell phone photo, do you still incorporate those same elements, the, the joy, the backlight, all of those things to bring it into, to your images?

Melissa Miller:

no, I don't, I, I feel like it's kind of one or the other. Like my phone is just to capture Moments as they're happening, and I do very little, like moving around for light. It's just like, oh, my daughter just stood up on her own, and I've got my phone right here. Yeah, so no, I think it's, to me, I, it's almost like an anxiety sort of thing, where if I'm with my camera, and I'm trying to take images, like, I want them to be beautiful and perfect. and in the best light and it's kind of all or nothing. I don't know if that's the most healthy mindset, but, yeah, my, my, the quality of images on my phone is not comparable,

Raymond Hatfield:

right? Right. I think that that's a 100 percent healthy mindset. cause now you're not going into it, with preconceived ideas and potentially being set up to be let down, you know, because of, how your camera works or whatnot. And I think at the end of the day, that's just going to help you be more present with your children rather than focused on the photography because I know that I have been guilty of that myself. I'll, pack a small camera to go out. Maybe we're going to the, state fair or something and I will. intentionally do things specifically for a photo rather than, just hanging out with the kids and just, seeing how they're going to play and react, on their own. so I get that and again, I, I really appreciate that too. But going back to those, the four words that describe your photographs, right? Can you tell me, maybe from a very technical standpoint, how you use your camera to achieve that? Because if, if you're not using your cell phone, how are you using your camera to achieve what it is that you're looking for?

Melissa Miller:

Yeah. So one tip that I think is especially great for beginners, is shooting on aperture mode versus fully manual. And I still do that often during sessions. I'm shooting into the light almost the whole time. And, In and out of shadows and that I mean, that changes settings so quickly. And I don't want to be in my camera the whole time. I don't want to be, hold on just a 2nd. I mean, if you tell a 3 year old to hold on for a 2nd, like, you've lost, you know, sure. And so that's, that's. Especially when you're starting out. I think that that's a great tip to just be able to, you know, and have a floating ISO. I always set my shutter speed so that it doesn't ever go slower than one over two 50 because kids move. Um, yeah. So yeah, those are a couple of things that I do with my camera.

Raymond Hatfield:

I love that. Very practical and, uh, still work of course.

Melissa Miller:

And then also because I'm shooting backlit. I will also, I often use exposure compensation and underexposed images, to preserve the sky or, sometimes I'll take a properly exposed image of just the sky and then stitch that in Photoshop later, but, with backlight, sometimes you get, you know, run into tricky things with, with exposure. So that's something else that I consider.

Raymond Hatfield:

Especially on a, cloudless day and it's just all white, the sky. And I know how frustrating that can be. and you try to try to figure out how to do that. So that, that's a good tip right there. Take a properly, properly exposed photo of the sky, to be able to save later. Going back to, you know, I want to come up with something else here for listeners, who are kind of in that early stage of photography. Maybe they're still going from zero to one rather than one to a hundred. So, what is something that you wish you knew about photography or about working with children when you had first got started?

Melissa Miller:

I'll give an answer for each. I think what is so valuable to know about working with children is that every child I believe can be photographed beautifully. Every child. I don't think that you can say like, Oh, I had a bad child today. I think you just need to read the child. And if they're super shy, then let them stay curled up with mom for half the session. There's no problem there. if they're super energetic, incorporate activities that allow them to. Um, so I think that that's just having that mindset that like, you can, there's a way to connect with every child. and that doesn't mean that you can get every image that you want with every child or a specific type of image with every child, but, I think just knowing that there's always a way, and just reading the child and adapting. I think if, if I had realized that. Early on, I could have saved a lot of time. I still remember some of the early sessions where I figured that out where I was like, Oh, my gosh, I'm never going to get a picture of this kid. And then the pictures from that session were like my favorites ever. He made me work for them. And then after several sessions like that with children that were really challenging, now I get a kid who's what some would call challenging, and I'm like, these are going to be beautiful images because they're going to be genuine.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah, and I'm sure that the family's going to love that even more. Yeah. And

Melissa Miller:

I'm going to get my cardio for the day.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah. Definitely going to get those steps in. that's an added bonus for sure. Melissa, we are at the end of our time here, but I wanted to, talk a little bit about, your course because, I guess we didn't talk about it as much as, I thought that it might, uh, come up, but, tell me about your course that you have that is directly tied to all things play and family photography and just getting those genuine photos.

Melissa Miller:

Yeah. So the, the course actually started out, as a list of 101 ways to play during sessions. and the way this list came about was I was preparing for a retreat with photographers. I run photography retreats in the summer and, people come and we hang out and do sessions together and edit. and I wanted like a physical, tangible, something I could give them. That would be a guide and have a lot of ideas for them. And so, in several of the photography groups, I'm in, I asked photographers to share, like, what is your go to tried and true way of eliciting genuine expressions in children through play. And so I got all of these ideas from people and a lot of them were things that I already did or do, some of them were new, and I built this resource and I started sharing this list, anybody that contributed, I just said, I'll, I'll send you the list. and then I started to realize like this list is really valuable. Like this is gold. This has, I mean, it has 101 prompts and ideas. and it's, things like, draw a shape on mom's cheek and see if you can guess what they drew. And it's things like sneeze dramatically, play peekaboo, all sorts of ideas. And, people started asking for the list and I had sent it out to like hundreds and hundreds of people. But I wanted to be able to say more about this list and I wanted, I thought what would be helpful for me if I were a new photographer is to see like video footage of these prompts in use or know when to use them or what age group to use them with. and so I reached out to click photo school about that. About this idea and they loved it. And so that's how the course was born. And I kind of combined my childhood development background from elementary education with this list of 101 ways to play. which has, you know, since its first formation has been modified and now it's grouped by, by age group. So for babies, which props do I use? Toddlers, children, and teenagers. Um, which is a whole different world

Raymond Hatfield:

and families.

Melissa Miller:

Yeah. That's the whole, another podcast. so yeah, that's the course that has the list. It has. It has lots of video examples grouped by age. It has, kind of explanations behind a lot of the prompts. Photo examples that I, uh, photos that I've taken using these ideas on the list.

Raymond Hatfield:

Well, I appreciate you, sharing that with me. I'm definitely going to post the link in the show notes as well if anybody is interested in it. and I can attest to just how helpful it can be to just have a starting place because as, as you mentioned, sometimes when you have a camera in your hand, it You're so focused on it that if whatever's happening in front of you isn't working, you're not sure exactly what to do. And you just kind of shy behind the camera, and then you get frustrated. So having those prompts and having just a starting place on, where to get kids to start doing things, can be extremely helpful in 101 ways. Oh my gosh. Like, I'm assuming there's no way that you could use all 101 during a, well, I guess if they're, broken up at a different age. I would

Melissa Miller:

know. I would never try.

Raymond Hatfield:

Right. So then, real quickly, could you tell me approximately, maybe, how many different prompts you, you'll use during a session?

Melissa Miller:

Oh, gosh. I actually have no idea. I think I need to film a whole session and, and go through and count. I'm sure it's different every time. But I probably use 10, 15. I mean, I don't know. Sure. Um, what I would recommend to photographers starting out would be pick three, pick three to try. I wouldn't go any more than that at the beginning.

Raymond Hatfield:

That was a great tip. So maybe if somebody is listening, they can take the three that you shared today. And if it works for them, then go check out the, uh, the rest of the course, cause there's going to be, just, there's Well, 98 more , 98

Melissa Miller:

more that they can

Raymond Hatfield:

use. That is great. Well, Melissa, again, thank you so much for coming on today. I really appreciate you, uh, sharing everything that you did. before I let you go, why don't you share with us, your socials and where we can see some of your images online?

Melissa Miller:

Yeah. Melissa Miller Photos, so www Melissa Miller photos.com is my website. Instagram, Melissa Miller photos is my handle. facebook.com/ Melissa Miller Photos, And then, of course, Click Photo School 101 Ways to Play Fresh Fontanelle Photography. And I would love to connect. Yeah.

Raymond Hatfield:

As always, I have three big takeaways from today's interview with Melissa Miller. The first one is, learn to incorporate multiple passions of yours to create something uniquely your own. So, Melissa loved two things, art and children, right? So, the art side of her turned to photography. She learned photography. The child side of her went into, education and early childhood development. And what she did was, instead of using both of them in silos, is that she combined them. And now she has something that is uniquely her own that, gives her a huge leg up against other photographers, who may also be shooting children and families, but also gives her better insight to her subjects who she's photographing. And that is always a great thing. Takeaway number two is to do whatever it takes to get the shot that you want, continue to learn and grow, but don't assume that you have to have a flagship camera or do everything. technically perfect or, bring out these giant lights, just to be considered good, an image can be good captured with very, very minimal equipment. And takeaway number three is, well, maybe you're not the type of person who should bring a camera with them everywhere they go. If you find that all of your attention goes to your camera rather than your family or your kids, then maybe just focus on being present. you can always try again later, but don't feel the burden of having to do it because others say, take your camera with you everywhere. Otherwise you're not going to learn photography, focus on your own terms, and learn. The way that you learn best. Now, be sure to check out Melissa's course, 101 ways to play fresh and fun family photography, if you work with children or families, I've got a link to the course in the show notes of this episode, very moderately priced. I highly recommend it. Encourage that you check it out. Now, if you have any questions about this episode or feedback on the show, trust me, I would love to hear it. So feel free to reach out to me directly via the contact form at the beginner photography podcast dot com, where you can shoot me an email or better yet, a voicemail voicemails. Allow me to get to you. Hear you and your thoughts in your own voice. it just gives me a little bit more context and kind of brings this community a little bit closer together. So again, head over to beginner photography, podcast. com. Click on the contact page up at the top and then send me your thoughts or questions about this episode or the show. That is it for this week. Thank you again for tuning into this episode of the Beginner Photography Podcast brought to you by Clouds Spot. It truly is the easiest way to deliver and sell your photos online. You can learn more about Clouds Spot and grab a free Forever account by heading over to deliver photos.com. And remember, the more that you shoot today, the better of a photographer you will be. Tomorrow. Talk soon. Thank you for listening to the Beginner Photography Podcast. If you enjoy the show, consider leaving a review in iTunes. Keep shooting, and we'll see you next week.