The Beginner Photography Podcast

Discover the True Essence of Telling a Story with a Camera with John Dolan

• Raymond Hatfield

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#414 In this episode of the Beginner Photography Podcast I chat with celebrity wedding photographer John Dolan who shares his unique approach to capturing the full story and emotions of a wedding. John reminds us that photography is about more than just obsessing over small details, it's about capturing the broad narrative and moments that truly matter. As he takes us on a journey through his experiences and insights, we learn the importance of letting go and embracing the natural flow of weddings, trusting our instincts to capture authentic moments. John's passion for tailoring his work to a distinct clientele encourages us to find our own form of photography and break free from industry expectations.

THE BIG IDEAS

  • Authenticity over Perfection: Let go of industry pressures to shoot ‘trendy’ or technically flawless photos—real, meaningful images resonate the most.
  • Be a Storyteller: Focus on capturing the full narrative of moments you photograph—look for connections, emotions, and interactions, not just picture-perfect poses.
  • Narrow Your Audience: Trying to please everyone dilutes your vision. Seek out people who appreciate your unique style, and focus on creating for them.
  • Trust Yourself: Learning to trust your instincts and respond to what’s really happening, rather than forcing poses or moments, leads to more compelling images.

Resources:
Celebrity Wedding Photographer John Dolan's Website
The Perfect Imperfect Photography Book

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Connect with Raymond!


Thanks for listening & keep shooting!

John Dolan:

Some ways the industry squashes creativity because it wants everybody to stay in this sweet middle. It's if you're trying to please everybody, you're sunk. I play this game of what kind of restaurant would you be? And a lot of people are basically like a food court. I can do everything, whatever you want, I'll do it. And I'm like one of those restaurants where you sit down and this is the fresh fish we just caught today. And here's the fresh vegetables. And this is on the menu. And this is what we're serving it's going to be the best meal you've had. I'm really into this idea of narrow casting rather than broadcasting and, trying to become the biggest, just find cool people and shoot their weddings. When I teach or when I talk to photographers, I feel like a lot of what I do is unlock them and say, you're handcuffed by these expectations of the industry. But you have the key to the handcuffs, so just let go.

Raymond Hatfield:

Hey, welcome to the Beginner Photography Podcast. I'm your host, Raymond Hatfield. And today we are chatting with celebrity wedding photographer John Dolan about creating images that are perfectly imperfect. This episode is brought to you by CloudSpot, the all in one, way better than Google Drive solution to deliver and even sell your photos online. You can grab your free forever CloudSpot account with 10 gigabytes of photo storage right now over at deliverphotos. com. As you can imagine, as a a wedding photographer for a number of years, I've seen my share of wedding photography. But despite the number of images that I have seen, John's images stand out. And they probably wouldn't stand out maybe on Pinterest or Instagram because they're not visually trendy. In fact John has published an entire photo book with images that he has shot from weddings called The Perfect Imperfect. And it shows us that a meaningful photo does not have to, be Okay, everyone, look at the camera and say cheese, and, very camera aware. It can be less visually perfect, but still have a depth that invites you to hang out and explore the image. His images they have substance. That's the best way that I can describe it. And that is why he attracts wedding clients like Ben Stiller, Will Smith, Kate Bosworth, Robert Redford, Jerry Seinfeld, and Gwyneth Paltrow. These people, They are visually literate when they know what it is that they're looking at, and they can, in essence, choose anyone that they want to shoot their wedding, but they chose John for his pursuit of authentic. Even if that means authentic is less than perfect. And with that, let's go ahead and get on into today's interview with the one and only John Dolan. John, my first question for you is, I want to know, when did you first know that photography was going to play an important role in your life?

John Dolan:

I was one of those people who's lucky to find photography early and at a crucial part of my life when you're right in high school. was a terrible student. I was always looking out the window. And then my dad bought me a camera. I kind of lobbied for a camera. I also knew that I was a collector. So I was a baseball card coin collector, newspaper clippings, sort of historian kid. And photography is another form of collecting. So once I had the camera in my hands and got a driver's license at 16, I was just leaving school as early as I could and heading out into the world and photographing it. The power of the camera the window into the world, that personal obsession thing was really fast with me. And I built a dark room in my basement one weekend when my dad was away. And, he was kind of shocked that I had done that. But I put all my efforts into it really fast. So it was that teenage obsession thing.

Raymond Hatfield:

Now you said that taking photographs is a form of collecting. Did you feel that way when you were, 16 or so? Was that something that you realized later on?

John Dolan:

I did I had a couple people close to me die in different ways, not to get too heavy right away, but, a neighbor of mine crashed his car and but I had photographs of him and I realized that, photograph keeps this person in a certain way. And it came to me in a faster way than with most people. I didn't take it lightly. I realized when you photograph somebody, you are saving that memory. You're carving time into these little slivers. And I think that hit me in a really big way,

Raymond Hatfield:

man. I don't know if I ever thought about anything that deep at 16 years old. So, um, I was a weird kid.

John Dolan:

Yeah,

Raymond Hatfield:

we were all weird kid. when you got that camera you started shooting, what types of things were you shooting? Did you have any sort of focus or it was just wherever your eye took you?

John Dolan:

No, a good question because I was thinking deep things, but I wasn't shooting anything deep. I was shooting sports and rock concerts, basically. but I realized I was really fast with my hand eye coordination. So I was making really kind of smart sports pictures for the school newspaper. They were a little bit beyond what the requirement was. And, I had that great moment when I was at a soccer game and a local newspaper person came up to me, and she said, our photographers didn't show up today. Can we see your film afterwards? So I, went home, develop the film and met her in a parking lot and gave her a print. And the next day it was in the newspaper. And that was that, mind blowing thing at 16 to get 25 for a print And it was actually a really interesting photograph of, 3 guys heading the ball into the net, and they all looked very strange and surreal, but it was a thrill to be published, especially. Given the fact that I was just kind of coasting through all my other classes. I realized, oh, this is something I'm better at than all the other people in my class and rock concerts gave me that access. And in those days, it was fairly easy to sneak a camera in get up to the front row and, rock lighting is amazing. You know, the concert lighting is fantastic. So if you're right there really close, you can see the sweat on the guitarist's head. And, it gave me that intensity of the experience rather than just being a concert goer. I was kind of part of the creative experience.

Raymond Hatfield:

Oh, wow. Part of the creative experience. That's interesting. Cause I feel like I've never been in a band before, a serious band, aside from anything just in high school. but it seems like to me from the band's perspective, being out there and Doing the performance. I would think it's one of the least creative parts, I guess it depends on your style of creativity, but that act allowed you to feel most creative. So when they were feeling maybe one of their least creative, you felt most creative So what did you do with those photos? Did you also share those in the paper or those just personal?

John Dolan:

I think it's about being in the moment. It's sort of a cliche, but when you photograph something, you're so intensely connected with the light and the energy and the, music and all that. So I was doing it mostly for myself, but then I would put it in the high school art show. But I did have an experience with a band called Little Feet, which was, I went to the concert the night that the lead singer, overdosed. So I was, my buddy and I were the only guys with cameras there. So, we took our film down to the Washington post. I grew up in the suburbs of DC. we took the film down to the Washington post and handed it over to the old guy in the dark room and he ran them in the soup. My buddy's picture got in the paper the next day, not mine, but a year later, when I was at college in Wisconsin, I got a phone call on, in the old days, people put a note on your door, Dolan, the Washington Post called here's the number. And, they were doing a 1st anniversary story about this rock star and they published my picture full page in the Washington Post. So that was sort of the 2nd time where I got that rush of this picture of yours is unique and has a power to it. So I think that was 50 bucks. I was raking it in.

Raymond Hatfield:

I'm glad that, uh, that they have a larger budget than the local newspaper there. Was this still in high school?

John Dolan:

No, I was in college then. I think I shot it the summer before going to college. And then, whatever it was a year later, they did a story about this musician. I see.

Raymond Hatfield:

I guess I want to know, does it transition from? I'm taking photos of friends and school stuff to, you know what? I think I might turn this into a career. When did that click for you? Was it when you got that first picture published in the local newspaper? Was it when the Washington Post called you? Was it later than that? Where did it end up?

John Dolan:

I went to a liberal arts school in Wisconsin called Beloit College. I didn't, I thought of going to an art school to study photography, but, my parents were strongly suggestive, of liberal arts instead of a narrow path. And even some of the art schools I visited said, you know, you're good, but you're not art school material. You might just be broader than that, and, which I think was a good decision because I was interested in English and literature and things. And the, professor I had it, I had for 3 years and I think he saw my raw talent and he just took me and it was a very small college. So he molded me very intensely over 3 years and, introduced me to poetry and short stories and novels and, photography history and art history and, just cultural awareness, which made me go from a sports and rock photographer to, whatever I became just a deeper photographer. So I was, I feel lucky to have gotten such a, intense educational experience. And, I remember distinctly the 1st time going on a field trip to Chicago and going to a gallery, and they gave us a special show of Ansel Adams prints and, seeing Moonrise over Hernandez in the flesh was just a remarkable experience. I was always into darkroom work, but then seeing a master print just raised the bar so high for me. Like, how do I go from these mediocre prints to something extraordinary,

Raymond Hatfield:

There's so much there to go back and ask about because what an experience that is. So, when it came to this deeper education, right? Being exposed to things like poetry and literature and other forms of art. I guess by this point, you already have the technical understanding of photography down. Now it's just, you learned the tool, now you're learning photography. Exactly. How do you think that learning those things, the literary, the poetry, paintings, all of these things, how do you think that helped you in photography?

John Dolan:

Without knowing it, I think I was becoming a narrative photographer. I think I was always drawn more towards writers than towards painters. but it just gave me this way of seeing the world that when you walk into a room, you're creating a story. When I photograph, I'm seeing connections between people. I'm, seeing little thought bubbles out of people's heads. I think what happened in college was it set me on this path that a photograph can be deeper than just the surface. The sports and rock pictures we're celebrating the surface of that experience, but, somehow in college, I just, it went into the pictures and, you know, this is all a conversation about the back in the film days. I think it's a different struggle for people right now, because, I have a base idea that photography is very easy to get good at, and then much harder to get really good at. So, I meet a load of photographers who, quit their job as a teacher or nurse and became photographers, watched a lot of videos and learned it. And they've gotten to a certain level of technical proficiency. They get frustrated because they don't know what to do with that. and I think that's the real challenge, but it's a particularly unique thing to photography that it's, you can get good at it so quickly. What other art form can you get good at in six months?

Raymond Hatfield:

Right. Yeah.

John Dolan:

Violin, poetry, sculpture. And I think it's sort of a torture of photography that you can see it like you can, as we were talking about before going on that your friends say, oh, you're a great photographer. You should be a photographer. It seems within reach, but it's a, much more complicated struggle than. Yeah, you might think, but it's a worthy pursuit.

Raymond Hatfield:

Hmm. I feel like that's something that I've been trying to put into words for a long time because you're right. I mean, you can get quote unquote good very quickly in photography, but going from good to great takes, I mean, forever. And, kind of where I'm at. I stopped shooting weddings after 10 years. I kind of fell out of love with it. And I feel like now I've been trying to figure out like, well, what do I want to shoot? And I think that for the past, I had went to school, to be a cinematographer and then I fell in love with photography after that. But because of that, I often wonder if I just focused so much on the technicals and yeah, I can properly expose. I can look at composition. I can look at framing and lighting and I can get the photo and it's better than, don't know, 99 percent of other people, but it's still just quote unquote good. It's not great. And I feel like I'm only now having the world be opened up to me of like, Oh, there's so much more to photography than just this. again, the sum of its settings and trying to figure that out. so I appreciate you saying that. That's a hard thing. Yeah.

John Dolan:

No, I think part of it is that the making of the picture is actually the easiest part. Taking the picture is the easy part. People obsess on it and, oh, am I in focus? Do I have all the exposure right? Do I have the composition right? That's the easy part. The harder part is knowing when to photograph and what's the photograph about. I keep going back to this, the three years of photography class I had that my professor was, he was Hungarian. He was kind of a little bit Freud, a little bit young and Zen. And he would just constantly ask this question of you're saying the pictures about this, but It's about much more and you don't even know it. It was a, puzzle to be the author of the picture and put things into that photograph instead of just settling for here's a picture of two people kissing at their wedding. What's behind those relationships. and it's basically it's what's made it interesting for me for 25 plus years that every wedding I go to is kind of this mystery to be solved. What are these two families like? And, what's going to happen today? And, I think it's that I'm never bored because human beings are so messy and complicated and,

Raymond Hatfield:

families, it's always crazy at a wedding. Oh my gosh. Yeah.

John Dolan:

Yeah.

Raymond Hatfield:

guess, let's touch upon the, professional side a little bit because you didn't get directly into weddings. So you went into, it was commercial and editorial as well. Is that right? How did you transfer from that into weddings? Yes.

John Dolan:

I moved to New York when I was 24 after a four month hitchhike through Europe where I just photographed every day. It was kind of my postgraduate, experience. Real quick,

Raymond Hatfield:

how many rolls of film did you bring?

John Dolan:

You know, not that many. It was, I think it was probably 40 or 50 roles. Oh, that's it. Yeah. But, I was careful and I may have even rolled my own film in those days. I probably did. But I wasn't shooting a ton, but I was shooting, I was looking every day, that was the first time in my life. That's all I did was photograph and walk and hitchhike and, that sort of stuff. But, then I moved to New York and I basically, there's a funny thing that just had so little skills beyond photography and to make money. So I ended up just printing in a darkroom for, say, six years for a few different photographers, but, I was a terrible assistant. I didn't know how to light. I didn't know how to do carpentry. I didn't know how to work in an office, but, in a dark room. That was my place. My happy place. So it was a funny kind of way to spend days in New York, but, uh, in the

Raymond Hatfield:

dark

John Dolan:

in the dark. And, it was also a really cheap time to live in New York. I didn't make much money but I was learning photographs from the inside out, by printing people's pictures. and the person I worked for the most was for four years was this photographer named Sylvia, whose son was the actor Adrian Brody. Um, but he was a kid when I was there. So part of my job was to take him out after school. Cause he had lots of energy as a theatrical kid and we'd wrestle and play football and go to horror movies and stuff. But, um, but I learned, I was kind of refining my craft, I certainly didn't know what I was photographing. I was doing some street photography. And then Sylvia recommended me to shoot a wedding and it was just 1 of the great nights of photography I've ever had. A New York City wedding with super cool people and, it's just holding on for dear life sort of thing. And then I started showing my wedding pictures around to magazine editors. And they would, consider me for a job at Mademoiselle magazine or traveler or some, but they would say photo editor said. I don't have a job for you, but I'm getting married next year. And in those days, this is like the nineties in New York. It was very uncool to admit that you did weddings. So I would have a portfolio and then I'd have a few wedding pictures in it. But I ended up shooting, I mean, 10 or 20 different photo editors and editors and writers and art directors weddings in the late nineties. I was getting some editorial work, but nothing big and then getting the weddings for people. And then I knew their whole families and. Then I'd get assignments that way. So it was an accidentally really great marketing plan.

Raymond Hatfield:

Oh, wow. So just because you had personal relationship with these editors and they trusted you in a different way, right? Right. Wow. And knew that you. shot weddings and that, you didn't shy away from it and they didn't want to be associated with wedding photographers. Is that it? So they just knew that you would be the person?

John Dolan:

There were very few wedding photographers in the nineties. There were amongst my group of magazine photographers and documentary people. It was the lowest form of photography. Bar mitzvahs and weddings were just bottom of the barrel. But the whole idea of shooting families and, women under pressure It was kind of lovely that there was very little competition. There were the old studios who shot it with, RZs or the Hasselblads, with the tripod and the big flash. And then there was a small group of us in the nineties. We shot with small cameras and handheld flashes and just we were sort of the young bucks.

Raymond Hatfield:

How did you approach that first wedding? were you trying to shoot it as you normally would your commercial stuff? Or did you try to look at wedding photography to get an idea of what it was and shoot it that way?

John Dolan:

have to imagine a world where there was no way to see wedding photography. Wow. Where there were no magazines that were showing real weddings. until I mean, that was my other big break was, I was showing my work to, an agent in New York and she said, you have wedding pictures. Martha Stewart's about to start a new wedding issue, a new wedding magazine. So that was 1995 she said, run up there because they're just about to, you know, they're working on it right now. I went, I had a meeting there, and they brought another editor in and which is always a good sign when you're at a meeting and they bring more people into the meeting and then they ended up running 20 of my pictures in the 1st Martha Stewart wedding issue.

Raymond Hatfield:

Holy cow,

John Dolan:

I think every wedding photographer working now should send Martha. Thank you. No, because that exploded the industry. And made weddings cool. And it really kind of shifted because they would feature real weddings. They were using non wedding photographers to shoot their cakes and their flowers. And they really redefined the whole genre in, two or three years in the late nineties.

Raymond Hatfield:

And you were a part of that. How cool is that?

John Dolan:

Yeah, it was, funny to go from being the least cool guy in the room to being, accepted. It took me a lot of years to ever shoot for Martha Stewart Living because that was a much more kind of controlled magazine. but I really enjoyed, having that, they would just treat the pictures so beautifully. They'd make these spread that it were just incredible. So yeah, it was a lucky thing.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah. I would imagine today that, I guess back then when you're used to printing your photos, it's not as, I don't want to say it's not as big of a deal to get it in a magazine, but I guess seeing it in print is really, really something. But today, I don't think many photographers print their photos. So getting it in a publication and having a, an editor, actually put this thing together and a designer would be quite an amazing experience. That is very cool. I have a question because I heard you say on another, interview once that, your goal at a wedding is to photograph how the wedding felt and not necessarily how it looked. How do you do that?

John Dolan:

Oh, that's the secret sauce. That's the magic. That's why I asked. mean, I can't explain how I do it, except that I sort of step back and, imagine I try to sense what this moment feels like. I'm trying to get inside people's heads saying, what are they going to want to remember of this incredible night? I've always tried to figure out the recipe. But it's, that I sense something, and then I see it, and then I frame it, or I don't know the exact order, but I do get a little quiver, like, this is, Incredible something's happening right now. How do I capture it? I've talked a lot about not controlling weddings and letting the wedding flow. And just being quick to catch it. Anytime that I stopped the wedding and trying to control it, the picture just goes flat because I always think of it as a sort of rushing river and you've got to just, you know, you're in a kayak going down the rushing river and you've got to. Just flow with it, if you try to stop, it's just a disaster. I do little bits of leading people into good light. That's about the extent of my thing. And I'll tell people to, go into neutral instead of I don't tell people to smile or to nuzzle or whatever the prompts are. I just say, just go into neutral and don't care. And that's kind of the most useful thing. and I hate being photographed. So, when I get photographed, I try to just stop posing or trying.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah, I'm wondering because that's one thing that a lot of photographers struggle with is the posing side of it And I think that for a number of years The term documentary photographer was really popular because there's this connotation that there's no posing involved You just show up and shoot it how it is. Yeah, and to me it sounds like there's A little bit of both of that in, what it is that you do, let me try to formulate this question here, because there's been times where I've told people, like, just relax, just be yourselves, just, you know, enjoy each other's company. And it's almost like when I say that they become hyper aware of their bodies.

John Dolan:

Yes.

Raymond Hatfield:

Is there a way that you twist that around to get them to feel comfortable?

John Dolan:

I think there's, a theater trick of giving people a task. Anytime I see people lock up, I just say, let's go over here. Let's keep moving. But I'm shooting while we're moving to the next spot. So there's no kind of beginning or end, or, okay, ready? 1, 2 3 2, 3. If I could outlaw people saying 1, 2, 3, ready? 1, 2, 3. Why? That was 1910 when we needed to have people hold still that's we're beyond that. We can handle a little bit of movement. And I just think that, It's all about what are they feeling? If they're feeling, moved by the experience, if they're feeling kind of high by the moment of getting married, that should be enough to emanate off the pictures. If you need to tell people how to feel, then there's a bigger problem.

Raymond Hatfield:

It's their

John Dolan:

wedding day. So, my daughter came up with this phrase, That she catches us doing sometimes, but when a parent will let us assign an emotion to a kid, like why do people tell their kids to smile, make them laugh, do something funny if they smile. Great. But telling people to look in love or look into each other's eyes and just. you know, so much. I just can't say any of those words to person. It's their wedding day. I'm there to catch what they throw me.

Raymond Hatfield:

I'm there to catch what they throw me. That's a perfect quote right there. I love that. Some of my favorite photos of my kids are You know, my wife is very much, she's not a photographer at all. She's a nurse. So every time she's like, Hey guys, smile, and I look at those photos and you're just kind of like, this is a document. They took this photo and she always says how much she likes my photos. And she's like, how do you get them to look like that? I'll do a similar thing. I'll say like, Hey, count how many times I blink. And then they'll look like right at me in the eyes while I take the photo or, Hey, what color is, Your pants and then they'll look down because they don't know and then they'll look up and oh, it's blue And there's just like that kind of natural expression and it's playing those games that I found the same thing and I see how at a wedding that works because there's already a lot going on. So I appreciate you, you sharing that, which I guess kind of brings me to my next question of like, in talking to just various wedding photographers, there seems to be kind of two camps of preparation for wedding photographers. You either want to know every moment of the day before the day even starts and how it's going to go, or you want to know nothing. You want to just show up blind and kind of let your eye take you. Where do you think you fall on that scale?

John Dolan:

Oh, yeah, just tell me where to be in and when and, I like to be the easiest thing on people's lists because they have a lot of stress. But I also, uh, linking back to the editorial work that I did parallel to the weddings, all those years, a lot of times we wouldn't get shot list. We would get sort of a storyboard, which I think that's a much more useful way to think about a wedding. I'm so down on the shot list because I think they drive a lot of photographers crazy and I don't read much when I'm shooting and, I'm not going to, I literally see people checking off these lists, but I think if you think of it like in cinema storyboard, how about a photograph that represents the place and then the characters and who's the lead and who's the minor characters and what's the drama? I have an internal storyboard in my head when I'm shooting and that's enough. I don't need to check off. Okay. Sister in law with the aunt. somebody else can do that. Throw in whoever wants to be photographed. I don't mind, but I'm much more interested in driving home after wedding going. Okay. Did I tell a story in a full way? Did I get all the ups and downs and the. sort of melancholy as well as the ecstasy. Do I have enough, photographs to make this kind of tell a broad narrative? I think that's much more useful. I wish the industry would kind of, embrace that and, Not put this pressure on photographers to get every napkin and every this and that it's just 25 years later, you are not going to care if you have a picture of that napkin. I promise

Raymond Hatfield:

you. I sure wouldn't care at all. And I think it can be kind of hard to communicate that sometimes because that's just what brides have seen everywhere. So that's a difficult thing. So I want to ask here shortly about, I guess, not vetting your client, but like, communicating what it is that you do, because what you do is not traditional, I guess, wedding photography in that sense, that there's lots of details, but you had said, when you're driving home, you ask yourself, did I photograph all the highs, did I photograph all the lows, and that's something that stop a lot of people from getting into wedding photography because they're so nervous. That it's just one shot that you're going to miss a moment. How do you deal with that? What if you didn't catch all the highs and didn't catch all the lows?

John Dolan:

Nope. No one will know That's the secret. That's the whole secret. I'm the only one who knows what I miss. I've done this for so long and I still, I miss people going down the aisle. I miss people coming back and this first kisses. I miss everything. But my mindset is always that I was much more nervous doing a corporate portrait of a CEO, which I was terrible at because that was at 15 minutes, one shot. Don't blow it. This is eight hours or two. Often my weddings are two days. I'm going to come home with enough, scenes of these two people and these two families, that they're going to be overwhelmed with, beautiful photographs that they're not going to look back and say, well, you didn't get a picture of uncle bill. Like, well, uncle bill was no fun to photograph. So, maybe there's a photo booth. I love when photo booths are there, to take that stress off. Yeah. Yeah.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah.

John Dolan:

But, I do make it clear to people when I meet them that if you're, type a perfectionist person who wants a photograph of every guest and every table and every this, there's a lot of photographers out there. I'm looking for 10 really cool couples who love photography and want, the best 1, say, I want 1 beautiful photograph from my wedding. Um, I love those people because if they say that to me, then I'm going to work so hard to make an extraordinary photograph that I've never seen before. If I get a client who says, okay, here's my list of all the things I want, and I won't be happy unless I get them all.

Raymond Hatfield:

You just stand up walk away. Yeah.

John Dolan:

Well, it's just it's all I want to say to them is good luck in your marriage because your spouse is going to disappoint you every day.

Raymond Hatfield:

This isn't even about wedding photography anymore. Oh no,

John Dolan:

it's a, yeah, good luck.

Raymond Hatfield:

That's hilarious. So when it comes time to those couples who say, I just want one really good photo of our wedding. You said earlier, when it comes to the preparation, you're like, just let me show up. is there any, asking them like, well, if you had to imagine what that photo looks like, what could that look like? No, that's, that's the whole point. It's up to you.

John Dolan:

but I love to meet people in person. because I'm in New York, I'm able to for the most part meet people. if somebody hires me, We'll have a glass of wine and do, a very relaxed engagement portrait where we'll walk around. I'll shoot a couple of roles. So they'll get to see how I work and I'll get to see how they are together and who's the blinker and who's the awkward 1 and those photographs are always kind of odd. And I almost want to just put them in a box for their 10th anniversary because, engagement pictures are kind of forced and, you're not married yet. So they're just documenting a certain moment in time, but it's really useful for me to hang out with these people. And then on the wedding day, like, ah, there's John. We know John. We trust John. Okay, let's go. but I can't predict what that picture is going to be. And that's the thrill of it. If I could just do a template and say, okay, I'm going to deliver a picture of the two of you standing in front of the, whatever, the ocean and it's just, that's boring. So I like to be thrilled.

Raymond Hatfield:

So, when it comes to the engagement sessions and they are more, of a portrait session, they're more guided, they're more posed. and you're just walking around. What is it that you're looking for? And then what is it that you're telling your couple? Do you say, Hey, go stand right there. And then just it's a very,

John Dolan:

it's a very indirect thing, but it's basically just, I usually do it sort of near sunset in lower Manhattan. And, it's just, I acknowledge that it's awkward and weird and. I'm often saying to myself, like, this is a disaster. I'm, how do people do it? It's not just me.

Raymond Hatfield:

Oh, that's so good to hear. Yeah, no, we're

John Dolan:

all in it together, but I'm looking for something of their personality, so a picture that reflects their connection and, sometimes you'll see one or the other saying, don't do that. That looks so awkward. And I just say, there's no right or wrong. There's no expectation of you guys being in vogue. This is just picture for your kids to discover in 25 years. So just be and eventually they let their guard down, hopefully. But it's, not a high pressure situation. It's let's play pictures for an hour.

Raymond Hatfield:

I'm going to push a little bit deeper into this because this is really interesting to me. How do you communicate that connection between them in an image. What is it about the image that shows their connection? Obviously, there's the composition, the lighting, the framing, all those things.

John Dolan:

No, it's that basically what I've learned all these years is that I'm a student of body language. I'm fluent in body language and I can tell when people are forcing something and then I could tell when they're pushing something. They're just actually feeling it between each other. So I kind of build this, I take away expectations and then I, throw them into an area of good light. And then I just say. look here or turn you know, it's often just like turn your head instead of your body or there are a lot of little dumb tricks you learn over the years, but you know, go to a museum and look and see how many pictures in the museum are flat. Towards the camera towards the painter.

Raymond Hatfield:

Yeah,

John Dolan:

none like only, uh, old mom paw in front with the pitchfork

Raymond Hatfield:

American gothic

John Dolan:

american gothic everything else is somebody's turned a little sideways and they look back. I mean people in the old days were they sat in a more elegant way and so. Unless you're wes anderson, I think there's ways to shoot people a little less directly and less and more uncontrolled and more, again, trying to feel what they're feeling and when they have a moment of realizing this is a special couple months before the wedding, it's like, let that come out.

Raymond Hatfield:

You've been shooting for a number of years. you have, one wedding photo that maybe stands out above the rest that you can think of in your head?

John Dolan:

Oh, there's one that's in my book that's a very dark portrait of a bride turning to the side and she's holding a bouquet of lilies. And it was shot with an old toy camera and this picture is probably 30 years old now and it was on the contact sheet when I printed it, it was really dark. So I almost missed it. And then I was just looking at it 1 more time and I tried to print a bit and it came to life. And it's, so sort of effortless. And elegant, and I don't even know what it's, a picture about, except that it's just unified portrait of beauty. When I was editing my book, I had a friend who divided my pictures into truth and beauty. So she made one pile of pictures that were moments of truth and one pile that were moments of beauty. And this picture was really at the top of the beauty category, because it's, some ways, on your wedding day, you're filled with it. You're vibrating with this energy. that you may not have again, if there's something unique about that day and the costume and the lighting and the, you know, we're all in a play. The photographer is part of the play and the bride and groom that, all the characters are, part of it. And this bride in particular just played the part really beautifully.

Raymond Hatfield:

So when you go out and shoot, had you ever thought about your images in those 2 buckets before?

John Dolan:

No, it was, it was, yeah, I'm grateful to my friend Holly for figuring that one out.

Raymond Hatfield:

I love getting outside insight for that exact reason, for sure. It just lets you see things like, Oh, I had never seen it that way, but you're absolutely right. so when you go to a wedding now with that knowledge, do you try to shoot it half and half? Or is there one way that you skew towards?

John Dolan:

I don't know how much control I have over it, except that I can tell when I'm out of balance, when I'm making too many pretty pictures and I'm not telling enough truth, then it feels a little, sometimes I compare it in my head to cooking. If it's too sweet or it needs a little salt, there has to be that balance. And I think in general, a lot of wedding photography has always been on the sweet side. And it's a little too, it's not nutritious in my book. it's not a either or thing. It's a both. That's it. And my whole mission really has been to expand the definition of wedding photography from, just the pretty and the perfect to this full, carnival of emotions. I mean, It's all there on a wedding day, and even on a wedding day, people go through this huge range of emotions. So why is photography so narrow, include the complicated and the messy. really excited to see younger photographers just trying to reinvent it because we all had the same script every Saturday night, and it's really hard to reinvent. But I think it's a fun mission.

Raymond Hatfield:

Okay. again, I'm at a fork in the road. I can go 1 of 2 directions. I'm going to stick with this beauty and truth idea. And I think that it kind of mirrors the title of the book, which is perfect. Imperfect. Right. And it seems like perfect is the beauty side. Imperfect is the truth side.

John Dolan:

There you go.

Raymond Hatfield:

it's almost like a play on words, right? it's the perfect imperfect. but is it two different things

John Dolan:

no, it's a puzzle, My book editor, Yolanda Cuomo, she really nailed the title. The imperfect was a phrase I've been playing with. But for me, I think when we were talking about it, I was telling her that if I'm doing a group picture, there's a perfect picture that's always kind of boring. And then there's this 1 picture where the people reveal themselves, and that's the perfect imperfect. it's an imperfect picture, but it's so deeper and so much richer and you know, who these people are, you know, what this moment was like, because it was just that perfect moment when everybody wasn't putting on a face. So it's a super elusive thing. And you know, when I go through the book now, I almost all the pictures were one frame. Um, it wasn't, I had 12 choices of each picture. It's like, that's the winning picture is this picture that rose above all the rest because it was true. Yeah. And the other ones were less true. They weren't fake, but they were, less true. So, even when I photograph my family, the best pictures, I didn't say anything to, don't say a lot when I shoot, because it's the pictures of my kids. don't shoot them. I didn't shoot them a lot when they were little, but they didn't change when I raised the camera. I didn't have to say a word because that whatever I saw in them was existing on their face. it's the faith in the, what you're looking through your camera and seeing is enough.

Raymond Hatfield:

That's a hard thing to do, to have that self confidence to know that it's enough.

John Dolan:

I mean, for me, it's always this thing that the deep joy and contentment I get from making a picture where I didn't say a word is immense. So, it's worth that risk because the satisfaction of making a picture, in a real way is really profound.

Raymond Hatfield:

you think that can only come from figuring out what, This form of photography is on your own. Like you said, you hadn't really seen any images of weddings beforehand. Do you think that you just have to go in it and figure out what it is for yourself? Or do you think that you can have some sort of education and still create images that are your own later on?

John Dolan:

When I teach or when I talk to photographers, I feel like a lot of what I do is unlock them and say you're handcuffed by these expectations of the industry. But you have the key to the handcuffs. So just let go. I think so many people are so tight by, the pressures of the industry. And some ways the industry squashes creativity because it wants everybody to stay in this sweet middle. But if you have, a distinct way of working and a distinct clientele who you can really talk to, if you need 15 clients a year, or whatever it is you need, if you're. Tailoring your work to find those people, then you can make really distinctive work. It's if you're trying to please everybody, you're sunk. So, I play this game of what kind of restaurant would you be? And a lot of people are basically like a food court. I can do everything. Whatever you want. I'll do it. And I'm like a. 1 of those restaurants where you sit down and. This is the fresh fish we just caught today and here's the fresh vegetables and this is on the menu and this is what we're serving and it's going to be the best meal you've had. I've been able to work this out over years, but it's not that different than when I started that. This is all I can do is shoot this way. and I can find 15 people, 20 people a year. It's not that they can ask. So I'm really into this idea of narrow casting rather than broadcasting and, trying to become the biggest, Just find cool people and shoot their weddings.

Raymond Hatfield:

Just find cool people and shoot their weddings. That's a perfect sentiment. changing gears here recently, or I guess getting back to the wedding day itself, recently my, son started, selling snow cones at the local farmer's market and, when he was buying supplies for the snow cones, I realized that, he was always making the cheapest decision, choosing the cheapest of everything, including choosing unwaxed paper cones, right? Because they were cheaper. So I tried to educate him a little bit and say like, the idea of, when making a decision, it should be good for business and good for the customer. But he was picking snow cone cups that were just good for, you know, Business and not the customer. and we had this little conversation, that sometimes if you buy something that is a little bit more, it's good for the customer because now they're going to want to come back next time instead of getting their snow cone soaked all the way through their clothes or whatever. Right. Even though it may not immediately look good for business. And the way that I'm tying this into photography and asking you a question here about my son's snow cone stand is, I've also heard that when you deliver a wedding, like you do this in person, you have a box of prints, you do this and you make this an event. So can you walk me through how this meeting is good for you, good for business, and good for the customer?

John Dolan:

When I leave a wedding, I go up to the couple. I Give them a big hug. I say, I've got it. The story's over. I'm tired. My battery's dead and everything's messy now and the ties are off and time for me to go. And they say, go, it's been incredible. that's my last interaction with them is this sort of high moment. So for me to send them a link 6 weeks later and them, be in line at Starbucks and looking at their pictures would be such a downer. I let down so the idea has always been that we need to reconnect after the wedding and I want to tell you stories of what I saw of your family. And I want to hear, I want to reconnect in this really special way. And it's kind of thrilling. So I, meet them at my apartment or the local place, and I have the box of prints on the table, but I don't open it. And we talk about the wedding and we talk about the honeymoon and I still don't open it. And then at a certain point I can read their body language, like open the dang box. And so it's almost like, setting everybody up to love what's in the box, even though they don't know what's in the box. I don't know what's in the box really Until I've shot the pictures, but I don't know what's going to be inside the box, but that unveiling is really a loving kind of re visiting of that wedding. And it's, 15 pictures, and everybody can do it their own way. But I found it to be really, the right number for me. And then. The way they look at the pictures is so rewarding to me because they're reliving that moment and then we finish that and then they're just full of this great feeling. And then I say, well, let's go over here and I show them a slide show of a top 100 and then hopefully that blows their mind. Then I give them a book with all the proofs of all the other pictures. So it's like they're overwhelmed. And then I shoved them out the door and say. Good luck, good luck going through all these pictures, I must say, it's just the sweetest thing, because, at its best, they say, your family now or they say, we experienced something together. And, that connection is real. it's not a business thing. It's like, you trusted me. And I hope I delivered on that trust.

Raymond Hatfield:

I know that you have a number of clients who are of a celebrity status that everybody would know of. Do you feel any pushback when you say, Hey, we're going to meet together and look at your wedding photos?

John Dolan:

Yeah, not all the celebrities have met in person, but some of them have. I mean, some really big ones. I flew down to Washington to deliver and that was a glorious thing. And, it's more the idea of tailoring, my business values to what I really think is important. So for me, to be led into people's lives is such an extraordinary thing. And I take it very seriously becoming the family historian. And Anything less than this feels to me to be really commercial and I think of myself as more like a specialist, almost like a heart specialist. So I come into, perform this operation and then it's like seeing the patient after the successful heart surgery or something. I'm really trying to just think of this job in a different way than we're used to with American businesses, I'm not growing my business. I don't have 20 people working for me. It's like a wedding planner will call me and say, I've got a great one for you. I say, great. What's the date? Tell me where to be. And I'll be there. I'm flipping a lot of the business models on their head, but, I think it's much more sustainable than the people who grow and grow and grow and set up a studio with five people and albums and this and that. but, the freelance life is something everybody has to figure out on their own. And this is the way I've maintained it and kept it sustainable. And, I'm not a rocket ship. I've seen so many people burn out. So I'm trying to be that slow burn.

Raymond Hatfield:

what would the metaphor for that be if it's not a rocket ship?

John Dolan:

Just the slow train, maybe. I do love trains.

Raymond Hatfield:

Trains are pretty sweet. I take a lot of

John Dolan:

trains, so.

Raymond Hatfield:

Especially in New York, for sure. Well, John, I honestly don't know how to, wrap it up any better than that. I feel like today you did a wonderful job of kind of walking everybody through the idea of how wedding photography can be different. And seeing it through a different lens than most aren't aware of. so one, I wanted to say, thank you for that and how much I appreciate you. But, two, before I let you go, I want to know, our listeners want to know as well, where can we see some of your work online so that we can get an idea of what the perfect and perfect photos look like?

John Dolan:

Well, we recently updated my website, johndoland. com. There's a blog in there that's got some, interesting little non traditional stories going on and. Instagram is kind of go in and out of Instagram, but, at John Dolan photog, where you'll see some weddings, some family stuff, some horses. We recently adopted a couple horses ridiculous that they walk by every once in a while, and some sheep and stuff. Yeah, I try to mix it up a little bit.

Raymond Hatfield:

We are in a very interesting place right now in photography, and technology because, as you've seen, more AI tools become available, every day and they become easier and easier to access. And there's, just naturally going to become a larger desire for things that are real. Things that are authentic, things that are non computer generated, because here's the thing when, everybody gets inspiration from the same place, the photos on Instagram, they get a ton of likes and then, they go out and try to attempt to copy that style. AI is going to be able to copy that style instantly. And because it's trendy, nobody's really going to care if it's AI because everybody's just going to move on to a new trend before. Anybody really could care. But what John has found is, a portion of the couples getting married who will settle for nothing less than raw human emotion. And John has spent his entire career creating images full of just that. Again, even if those raw human emotions are less than Pixel perfect, but as you heard it took John years to find his voice It took years for John to figure out the types of images that he wanted to create It took even longer to figure out how to communicate that value that he offers to his clients Years, but it paid off and it only paid off because John put in the work You know, John did not have this meteoric rise to success It's not a quick journey to the top, but if you want to get there, if you want to get to the top, you can have it if you want it, but you got to work for it right now. I want to invite you into our free and private beginner photography podcast community to share your biggest takeaway with the whole community. So if you want to grow your skills as a photographer, The best way to do that is to surround yourself with others who are just as passionate about photography as you and can provide helpful answers to your questions and even give feedback on your photos. So to join the, again, free and private beginner photography podcast community, go ahead and head over to beginner photopod. com forward slash group, or you can just click the link on the homepage. Now. That is it for this week. Thank you again for tuning into this episode of the Beginner Photography Podcast brought to you by CloudSpot, the easiest way to deliver and even sell your photos online. You can learn more about CloudSpot by heading over to deliverphotos. com. And remember, the more that you shoot today, the better of a photographer you will be tomorrow. Talk soon.

Outtro:

for listening to the Beginner Photography Podcast. If you enjoy the show, consider leaving a review in iTunes. Keep shooting, and we'll see you next week.